Manor designing their car without a wind tunnel

[DexDexter]

Nick Wirth states in an article that they don't use a wind tunnel at all. Can it work? Seems really strange to me. What do you guys think?



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79317

[Sonic]

Its the future - you heard it here second ;)

[DexDexter]

I can't believe the FIA & teams allow these new teams in and may possibly leave Sauber out. I'm pretty sure that this year's BMW Sauber would beat these new guys without any development over the winter at all. Just bolt in the Ferrari engine and somehow enlarge the fuel tank and these without-wind- tunnel Manors and the rest of them would be behind. :rolleyes:

[AndyL]

Oh dear. I hope they don't end up embarrassing themselves too badly. I can't help but recall the CFD expert quoted in the New Scientist a while ago, who said that current CFD technology can't properly simulate a cup of coffee.

[Mark]

Indeed. CFD will get you a long way there. Probably 95% of the way there. But for the other 4% you need a windtunnel. (The other 1% is of course on track testing!)

[wedge]

Nick Wirth designed Acura LMP1 cars mainly with CFD.

With wind tunnel restrictions next year what are the aero guys going to use? Dinky toys and electric fans?

[Garry Walker]

As I have said many times before. Quality before quantity. We dont need joke teams in F1 and manure seems to be heading that way.

[N. Jones]

Wow, this is a new way of doing things. Hopefully it turns out since it looks like they will actually be a new team on the grid!

[Mark]

I think it would be a good idea just to ban windtunnel testing completely! Wind tunnels are hugely expensive, server kit is going to cost less than that.

[harsha]

recipe for a disastrous f1 season

[ArrowsFA1]

recipe for a disastrous f1 season
Well, the Acura has been pretty effective in the ALMS.

[ioan]

Wow, this is a new way of doing things. Hopefully it turns out since it looks like they will actually be a new team on the grid!

New way?
All the teams use CFD software to design their parts before going ahead and validate them in the wind tunnel and on the track.
How will Manor GP validate their parts? CFD is all nice and rosy but still pure theory, so not that accurate.

[I am evil Homer]

Probably the first official test when they're 4 seconds a lap slower....

[Sleeper]

This is old news that we've all known about for months. In the long run, if they lst that long, they wont do badly but they wont be race winners either.

[Hondo]

Teams that use wind tunnels have been known to get it wrong anyway themselves.

[keysersoze]

The wind tunnel causes designers to alter this and that until the cars look ridiculous. Perhaps the new teams will design cars that will at least be pleasing to look at. :p

[N. Jones]

This is old news that we've all known about for months. In the long run, if they lst that long, they wont do badly but they wont be race winners either.
That is an interesting comment as this isn't old news to me! :D

[F1boat]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is CFD?

[DexDexter]

This is old news that we've all known about for months. In the long run, if they lst that long, they wont do badly but they wont be race winners either.

You've known about it, people here haven't. Stop making stupid generalisations.


Teams that use wind tunnels have been known to get it wrong anyway themselves.

So you're telling me that Manure are somehow smarter than Ferrari and Mclaren because they don't use a tunnel?

[VkmSpouge]

I hope it works out for Manor, if it does it should prove to be a real money saver, if it doesn't then last row on the grid will be exclusively Manor's. Pretty old news though, Manor did say they were doing when their entry was confirmed.

[DexDexter]

I hope it works out for Manor, if it does it should prove to be a real money saver, if it doesn't then last row on the grid will be exclusively Manor's.

I don't know, USF1 will be close there too, since they (correct me if I'm wrong) don't seem to have any current/recent F1 expertise in the design office.

[DazzlaF1]

Teams that use wind tunnels have been known to get it wrong anyway themselves.

Absolutely, just look at Honda in 07 and 08 for example, millions spent on wind tunnel tests on aerodynamics and still they ended up producing 2 cars not worth stealing.

I for one applaud Manor for taking this approach, its a big gamble and a real test in the CFD software that Wirth trusts. After all, even with the budget cuts, isnt F1 also about design innovation?

[Saint Devote]

As I have said many times before. Quality before quantity. We dont need joke teams in F1 and manure seems to be heading that way.

Your comment is way too premature.

Manor is a successful racing team that for example had a certain Lewis Hamilton as a driver and he won the championship. They are prominent in f3.

The Acura program has been succesful with Gil de Ferran principal of his own team and racing the cars - he is now headed for Indy Racing.

The Manor project has been known for some time and it is extremely exciting. A pity that sportscar racing has beaten f1 to the line in using this 21st century technology.

It ought to be something f1 fans are excited about and welcome. Perhaps in the hands of f1 it will advance to become the design engineering method of choice.

And as was mentioned in a post before this one wind tunnel tesing is extremely expensive.

[CNR]

http://www.f1inschools.co.uk/page--virtual-wind-tunnel.html

F1 Virtual Wind Tunnel (VWT) is a computer progamme which allows CAD designs to be analysed for drag characteristics. The results can be visually represented on screen and the results used to improve car designs. F1 VWT is a variant of CHAM's PHOENICS Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) product. F1 VWT was created for use exclusively within schools and colleges participating in the F1 in Schools Challenge

[Saint Devote]

New way?
All the teams use CFD software to design their parts before going ahead and validate them in the wind tunnel and on the track.
How will Manor GP validate their parts? CFD is all nice and rosy but still pure theory, so not that accurate.

You mean it is hypothesis in your view - theory is based on proven concepts which in turn rests upon valid abstracts.

The theory has been shown to be valid because the LMP1 Acura have achieved it in the same way that Manor is set to.

How will they validate it - like all the other teams - testing.

It is the design phase that is unconventional.

[Jag_Warrior]

This should be interesting...

http://www.lausd.k12.ca.us/King_Drew_Medical_Magnet/images/SmileyPopcorn.gif

[Azumanga Davo]

This is the same guy who had Simtek, yes?

If so, then well, yeah... :/

[leopard]

I think unless wind tunnel is officially banned next year, new entrants would be safer to develop the same aero model of car used by teams currently existing. However if this thing different is allowed to be in practice, we'd like to know how it works.

[Big Ben]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is CFD?

I think it stands for computational fluid dynamics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_fluid_dynamics

[Knock-on]

You've known about it, people here haven't. Stop making stupid generalisations.




Sorry Dex but it was discussed extensivly on here when Manor disclosed they were using CFD instead of a Wind Tunnel. Will try and dig out the link.

[I am evil Homer]

Your comment is way too premature.

Manor is a successful racing team that for example had a certain Lewis Hamilton as a driver and he won the championship. They are prominent in f3.

The Acura program has been succesful with Gil de Ferran principal of his own team and racing the cars - he is now headed for Indy Racing.

The Manor project has been known for some time and it is extremely exciting. A pity that sportscar racing has beaten f1 to the line in using this 21st century technology.

It ought to be something f1 fans are excited about and welcome. Perhaps in the hands of f1 it will advance to become the design engineering method of choice.

And as was mentioned in a post before this one wind tunnel tesing is extremely expensive.

Absolutely they are def better placed than many....but I think many of us here worry about the new teams full stop - a competitive grid is to be welcomed, but the potential sight of teams spending millions as new entrants and being so far behind is not what F1 needs right now.

[Big Ben]

It's rather ironical that so many were throwing rocks at MM and BE for having such a small grid and now when we may have a 14 team grid people complain that the new teams might not be as fast as the others... well, doh!... they've got to start from somewhere

[ArrowsFA1]

Manor Grand Prix's first chassis should be completed by the end of November and testing at the beginning of February, according to designer Nick Wirth.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79317

[Saint Devote]

This is the same guy who had Simtek, yes?

If so, then well, yeah... :/

Nick Wirth had Simtek but Manor is not his team. He is doing the design work for them as he did with Acura.

[DexDexter]

Sorry Dex but it was discussed extensivly on here when Manor disclosed they were using CFD instead of a Wind Tunnel. Will try and dig out the link.

OK, I stand corrected. Sleeper was right, my apologies. Still, the topic seems to have some life in it...

[Andrewmcm]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is CFD?

The bane of my existence. Otherwise known as Computational Fluid Dynamics - solving the equations that govern fluid motion on computers basically. Big computers. And even then they won't give you the right answer.

[christophulus]

And even then they won't give you the right answer.

I don't know a huge amount about computer modelling but it can be a bit hit and miss. But then again, Honda and McLaren have made a mess of cars even with expensive windtunnels, so good luck to Manor.. It will be a revolution if it works out!

[UltimateDanGTR]

suicidle risk, and next year they will either be kicking themselves or very happy with their results. at least it adds some spice.

[V12]

It's rather ironical that so many were throwing rocks at MM and BE for having such a small grid and now when we may have a 14 team grid people complain that the new teams might not be as fast as the others... well, doh!... they've got to start from somewhere

Not me, I was one of the rock throwers, and I'm on record many times as saying this influx of new teams, regardless of how good they are initially, is just the shot in the arm F1 has been needing since, well, the mid 90s. For once the FIA/Bernie have got it right, credit where it's due.

Some people prefer "quality over quantity" (god I hate that PC phrase).

I prefer both. 10 high quality teams, or those same 10 high quality teams with 3 (understandably) weaker newcomers as well? Give me the latter every time.

Williams (1972) and McLaren (1966) were crap when they very first started building F1 cars as well. And by "crap" I mean relatively weaker than the front running establishment, again understandable since they were just starting out, they had nothing to be ashamed of and their subsequent histories speak for themselves. Slagging off these new teams starting on the same path before they've even turned a wheel is very disrespectful IMO.

If you want a closed shop go watch American sports or the new format Rugby "Super League" - I sometimes do when trying to cure my insomnia.

EDIT: This went on a bit of a rant, eu I quoted you but only the first paragraph of my post was in response to you specifically!

[DazzlaF1]

This is the same guy who had Simtek, yes?

If so, then well, yeah... :/

Yes, but with Simtek, he had practically no money and still in 1995 he designed what looked like a decent car capable of running in the midfield in Verstappen's hands before his team not suprisingly went bust.

Now at Manor using this CFD technology, he's bound to have some decent cash to play with when Virgin are expected to be announced as their financial muscle. Its a very exciting project.

[DazzlaF1]

Not me, I was one of the rock throwers, and I'm on record many times as saying this influx of new teams, regardless of how good they are initially, is just the shot in the arm F1 has been needing since, well, the mid 90s. For once the FIA/Bernie have got it right, credit where it's due.

Some people prefer "quality over quantity" (god I hate that PC phrase).

I prefer both. 10 high quality teams, or those same 10 high quality teams with 3 (understandably) weaker newcomers as well? Give me the latter every time.

Williams (1972) and McLaren (1966) were crap when they very first started building F1 cars as well. And by "crap" I mean relatively weaker than the front running establishment, again understandable since they were just starting out, they had nothing to be ashamed of and their subsequent histories speak for themselves. Slagging off these new teams starting on the same path before they've even turned a wheel is very disrespectful IMO.

If you want a closed shop go watch American sports or the new format Rugby "Super League" - I sometimes do when trying to cure my insomnia.

EDIT: This went on a bit of a rant, eu I quoted you but only the first paragraph of my post was in response to you specifically!

I applaud you, my sentiments exactly.

These new teams coming in are nothing like those pathetic efforts you see nowadays on the brilliant F1 Rejects site, Manor (as has been discussed) are attempting new methods in F1 design, Campos have enlisted the help of Dallara to build their car for their 1st year, USF1 (from recent stories) certainly dont lack ambition and Lotus have some decent money and a top experienced designer in Mike Gascoyne.

Within 3-4 years, we could be saying that we are watching 13 high quality teams, more competitive cars on the grid means more opportunities for up and coming drivers to make a name for themselves, and that i think is what the FIA wanted when they opened up the bidding for team slots.

[wedge]

Yes, but with Simtek, he had practically no money and still in 1995 he designed what looked like a decent car capable of running in the midfield in Verstappen's hands before his team not suprisingly went bust.

He's a crafty fellow.

He came up with a clever braking system at Benetton, IIRC, a mechanical form of ABS (dunno the technical term for it) which would stop the inside wheels from locking up.

He took the blame for the poor Benettons in the late 90s after falling out with Briatore and Symonds. I know F1 can be cruel but its a bit of shame as he was touted as the next Adrian Newey in the mid-90s and always anticipated what he would come up with.

[wedge]

Flicking through Racecar Engineering magazine, Force India basically start off with the windtunnel and use CFD for further analysis.

Wirth R&D the LMP1 Acura by starting off with about 2 weeks in the windtunnel and spent the rest on CFD.

[nigelred5]

Wasn't it Ferrari a couple years ago that finally admitted that they had totally screwed up their baseline in the wind tunnel and it totally threw off all of their calculations and wind tunnel data for the majority of the season?

[AndyL]

Wasn't it Ferrari a couple years ago that finally admitted that they had totally screwed up their baseline in the wind tunnel and it totally threw off all of their calculations and wind tunnel data for the majority of the season?

That was Honda.

[Malbec]

It ought to be something f1 fans are excited about and welcome. Perhaps in the hands of f1 it will advance to become the design engineering method of choice.

And as was mentioned in a post before this one wind tunnel tesing is extremely expensive.

CFD already is the design method of choice. Windtunnel testing is there merely to check that new parts work as predicted. Most teams already spend more effort on CFD buying up supercomputers than they do on windtunnels.

Windtunnel testing isn't expensive. Building your own is. There are plenty of companies around that let out their windtunnels for clients to use by the hour.

[speeddurango]

That would provide some good diversities next year! The gaps are just too close nowadays for good racing, thus I hope that a couple of moving chicanes would spice things up a bit.

[Robinho]

CFD already is the design method of choice. Windtunnel testing is there merely to check that new parts work as predicted. Most teams already spend more effort on CFD buying up supercomputers than they do on windtunnels.

Windtunnel testing isn't expensive. Building your own is. There are plenty of companies around that let out their windtunnels for clients to use by the hour.

thats all very well, but if your relying on Wind tunnel testing and rent a space a couple of days a week you'll be so far behind the guys running at least 1 tunnel round the clock that you might as well not bother - trying something different might just be a way to make up some of the competitive advantage lost in bnot having a wind tunnel running all the time and save some cash for development in other areas. it will certainly be an interesting experiment and could go badly wrong, but if F1 teams and designers never tried anything new or different we would not have the advances we have had in the history of the sport - thats what these guys are paid for - i say good luck to them.

i am of course coming at this from the POV of someone who only understands the basic of windtunnels and CFD, so i'm sure some of the experts in the field will know if CFD is viable as a full alternative to wind tunnel design and testing, but then the top experts are the ones who are working at the very top and might be able to get more out of it than the more mortal experts who might know more than me but less than them?!

[ioan]

thats all very well, but if your relying on Wind tunnel testing and rent a space a couple of days a week you'll be so far behind the guys running at least 1 tunnel round the clock that you might as well not bother -

There is no round the clock wind tunnel testing anymore, wind tunnel use is limited by the FIA.

[Robinho]

There is no round the clock wind tunnel testing anymore, wind tunnel use is limited by the FIA.

true, but its still pretty intensive i believe.

if they can mae this work then they might even get more out of it than limited wind tunnel and track testing? they just need to be incredibly good and calibrating and realising their results when they do get on track as everything will be untested in the real world when its new, rather than wind tunnel tested - an interesting project

[Malbec]

thats all very well, but if your relying on Wind tunnel testing and rent a space a couple of days a week you'll be so far behind the guys running at least 1 tunnel round the clock that you might as well not bother - trying something different might just be a way to make up some of the competitive advantage lost in bnot having a wind tunnel running all the time and save some cash for development in other areas. it will certainly be an interesting experiment and could go badly wrong, but if F1 teams and designers never tried anything new or different we would not have the advances we have had in the history of the sport - thats what these guys are paid for - i say good luck to them.

I don't think Manor are doing anything new, merely cutting back on windtunnel use to save costs. I also doubt their car would run without some windtunnel use first to make sure that their design actually does work as they thought. People talk as if they wouldn't use windtunnels at all, I doubt thats correct given how easy it is to rent time on one.

[Robinho]

I don't think Manor are doing anything new, merely cutting back on windtunnel use to save costs. I also doubt their car would run without some windtunnel use first to make sure that their design actually does work as they thought. People talk as if they wouldn't use windtunnels at all, I doubt thats correct given how easy it is to rent time on one.


i'd be surprised, but their guys (wirth i think) was quoted as saying the car will never see a wind tunnel in any way.

like you say its not exactly new, more an extension of current processes

[dwboogityfan]

Manor's base in Dinnington (near Sheffield) is just round the corner from my uncles and there is currently a large amount of construction going on to bring the factory up to F1 standards.
From what I saw on Saturday inside the current Manor building they are not going to be a joke team. They have won championships in every formula they have competed and perhaps most importantly don't seem to be overstretching themselves financially.
Of all the new teams they are to me the most interesting - I can see them struggling at first but eventually being successful. They remind me alot of Jordan.
As for Nick Wirth he is a fantastic asset to the team. The car he designed at Simtek in 1995 was a quick little car, if only they had the budget. His work on the Acura has also been a success.
Driver wise it looks like Lucas di Grassi will get one seat so I'd expect an experienced driver in the second - possibly either Sato or Davidson.

[DazzlaF1]

Manor's base in Dinnington (near Sheffield) is just round the corner from my uncles and there is currently a large amount of construction going on to bring the factory up to F1 standards.
From what I saw on Saturday inside the current Manor building they are not going to be a joke team. They have won championships in every formula they have competed and perhaps most importantly don't seem to be overstretching themselves financially.
Of all the new teams they are to me the most interesting - I can see them struggling at first but eventually being successful. They remind me alot of Jordan.
As for Nick Wirth he is a fantastic asset to the team. The car he designed at Simtek in 1995 was a quick little car, if only they had the budget. His work on the Acura has also been a success.
Driver wise it looks like Lucas di Grassi will get one seat so I'd expect an experienced driver in the second - possibly either Sato or Davidson.

Bruno Senna's in the frame too, he said recently that Manor were one of 2 teams that he was talking to (Campos being the other)

I think though it'll be a combo of experience and youth so i'll for Davidson or di Grassi with possibly Trulli

[harvick#1]

I think it would be a good idea just to ban windtunnel testing completely! Wind tunnels are hugely expensive, server kit is going to cost less than that.

I agree :D :up: windtunnels should be banned and teams have to just make hay without them.

that would really make the racing interesting

[Roamy]

well a couple of things. If you ban windtunnels then people will cheat
the cars now are supposed to be flat bottomed. so I think you can go without a tunnel.

[Garry Walker]

so I'd expect an experienced driver in the second - possibly Davidson.

I dont like manor much, but even I dont wish something that horrendous for them.

[BobbyC]

I applaud you, my sentiments exactly.

These new teams coming in are nothing like those pathetic efforts you see nowadays on the brilliant F1 Rejects site, Manor (as has been discussed) are attempting new methods in F1 design, Campos have enlisted the help of Dallara to build their car for their 1st year, USF1 (from recent stories) certainly dont lack ambition and Lotus have some decent money and a top experienced designer in Mike Gascoyne.

Within 3-4 years, we could be saying that we are watching 13 high quality teams, more competitive cars on the grid means more opportunities for up and coming drivers to make a name for themselves, and that i think is what the FIA wanted when they opened up the bidding for team slots.

Nick Wirth is a successful ALMS chassis man, as we saw, and USF1 is using a similar route; Pratt & Miller, another successful operation in sportscars, is doing the work for the team based at W. T. Harris Boulevard in Charlotte. We're seeing many Le Mans winners working F1 now.

[ClarkFan]

It's rather ironical that so many were throwing rocks at MM and BE for having such a small grid and now when we may have a 14 team grid people complain that the new teams might not be as fast as the others... well, doh!... they've got to start from somewhere
The problem isn't the number of teams, it's the guaranteed grid places. Even if Manor produces a car with the aerodynamics of a sheet iron cow shed, they get into the race and collect the modern equivalent of starting money. I would much rather see 16 teams competing for 28 places on the grid, or 14 teams competing for 25 places.

Regarding Manor's 0-tunnel approach, comparisons with other racing series aren't really valid. All the single-seat series below F1 are single-chassis series, so the possiblity of aerodynamic customization is limited to the attack angles of the front and rear wings. ALMS had at most 3 different LMP1 desings during 2009 and for most of the season the Acuras were the only LMP1 designs on the grid. In neither instance is the design competition nearly as fierce or individualized as F1.

ClarkFan