A Question I would like answered

[Roamy]

If you poll all the teams

Who are the 5 best drivers and car developers?

I think it would be quite interesting.

[F1boat]

Great thread, fousto. For drivers, I think Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa, Button. For developers, I am not really sure, but I think that Alonso and Barrichello are among them. BTW, the topic is about current drivers, I guess?

[Cozzie]

BEST DRIVERS:
1. Alonso
2. Vettel
3. Raikkonen (when on top form)
4. Massa
5. Hamilton

DEVELOPERS:
1. Alonso
2-5. ???

[Hondo]

In this day and age and, I'd say since 2000, car development has not been a major factor in driver selection. Depending upon how you define it, I'm not even sure development would be the correct word to use. The car is pretty much a concept decided on by an artistic, creative engineer, brought to reality by engineers, computers, wind tunnels and other static tests. By the time the car is built and on the ground, so much of it is designed to work in concert that little development can be done in one area without messing up another. I think what is important is the bond of trust between the engineers and the driver. The engineers will get the development data they desire if they have a driver with the skills to drive the car as close as possible to their testing program and the driver has to have enough faith in his engineers to try driving the car their way, even if it "feels" funny.

As far as drivers go, I would think with the limited testing, the car thrashers and floggers would be in demand. You know, the guys that can take a car that is all wrong but still manage to do something right with it. Like scoring a few points. To me, the "smooth drivers" are slow drivers. They look good in the rain but on a dry track they are consistant and just part of the parade.

Without a doubt Alonso and Kimi are the absolute best thrashers on the track today and both are capable of doing cool stuff with bad cars when they feel like it.
Hamilton is quickly learning to be a proper thrasher.
Vettel and Sutil both seem to have the skills, they just need to settle down and pay attention. So:
1. Alonso
2. Kimi
3. Hamilton
4. Vettel
5. Sutil

Button - If he doesn't WDC this year, he'll become the second coming of Coulthard.

Rubens - Has become a bitter little man and needs to step away.

Fisi - His dream has come true and he can leave now. I remember someone at Ferrari saying Fisi would never drive for Ferrari when he first came into F1. Sorry, I don't remember who it was nor do I have a link.

Massa - I think If Massa takes another good shot to his head, it will kill him. He wants to come back so best of luck to you.

Trulli - Time to retire, Jarno. In a strange way, you kind of remind me of Button. You have your good days, but not enough of them.

Kubica - May become the Euro version of Rubens. Going from one weakened team to another isn't going to improve his outlook.

[V12]

In this day and age and, I'd say since 2000, car development has not been a major factor in driver selection.

A year ago I would have agreed with you, and in future it may become true again, but with the changes in rules and the limited amount of testing, I think an experienced, good car developer has become more valuable. Obviously nowhere near as much as it used to be before computers and team staff levels running into triple figures. But I believe the reason Brawn kept hold of Barrichello instead of going for Senna like Honda were probably going to do was due to his experience in getting the car up to speed, and while who knows what would have happened if Senna had been in the other Brawn instead of Rubens, chances are that decision paid off.

[Garry Walker]

A year ago I would have agreed with you, and in future it may become true again, but with the changes in rules and the limited amount of testing, I think an experienced, good car developer has become more valuable. Obviously nowhere near as much as it used to be before computers and team staff levels running into triple figures. But I believe the reason Brawn kept hold of Barrichello instead of going for Senna like Honda were probably going to do was due to his experience in getting the car up to speed, and while who knows what would have happened if Senna had been in the other Brawn instead of Rubens, chances are that decision paid off.
The reality is that the first day of testing when Rubens drove the car, he was super fast at once. so his testing skills had NOTHING to do with how fast the Brawn car is.

Drivers have very little to do with car development.
As for those praising Alonso so much, why hasnt the super-dooper tester done much with the Renault the last 2 years?


Best drivers: Kimi, Massa, Hamilton. Little bit behind them Alonso.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Drivers have very little to do with car development.

:up:

People on F1 forums tend to overstate a driver's role in the development process.

The best attribute for a test driver is the ability to put in consistent lap-times. The feedback they give to their engineers is valuable too (though less so since the introduction of telemetry) but ultimately it's the engineers who use that feedback to make changes to the car.

[Knock-on]

In no order:

LH, FA, KR, SV, FM, JB, RK.

[UltimateDanGTR]

well I think there are 5 drivers currently in F1 that are just that little cut above the rest, all brilliant and all have blown people away with inidvidual performances on occasions. These 5 are Lewis, Kimi, Massa, Fred and Seb kettle. I really cant say anyone of these are better than the other, they are the best simple as and a one off race where they are all in the same cars, just them 5 and no else in the way and no mechaniccal problems for anyone is a dream. maybe we'd find out who is currently THE best then.....but until that dream comes true, we have the 5 best drivers, all of which stand a chance of the world championship next year. (providing Kimi gets a top drive like Macca) Plus, Button and Webber aren't too far behind whatsoever....

[jens]

Barrichello was chosen over Senna mainly because Senna had had almost no experience in F1 car (and now we can see, how badly are all those mid-season substitutes struggling without testing) and also Ross had more trust in Rubens' ability to deliver in fighting for top positions, whereas such sudden opportunity could have been caused too much pressure for Bruno.

Top drivers? That's tight.
Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Massa, Kubica, Räikkönen (well, that's Top6) with Heidfeld, Rosberg, etc narrowly left out...

Car development? No idea, this is a guessing game for fans. :)

[DexDexter]

5 Best drivers:

1.Hamilton
2. Kimi
3. Alonso
4. Vettel
5. Massa

Best developers:

Not enough evidence to form an opinion.

[pino]

Best drivers :

Alonso
Kimi
Vettel
Hamilton
Massa

[jimakos]

My best 5:

Raikkonen
Massa
Hamilton
Vettel
Alonso

[BeansBeansBeans]

My five:

1) Alonso
2) Hamilton
3) Vettel
4) Raikkonen
5) Kubica

[DexDexter]

What a consensus! Almost everybody's got the same top 5. :up:

[Steve2009]

Alonso
Hamilton
Kimi
Massa
Kettel

[jimakos]

What a consensus! Almost everybody's got the same top 5. :up:

What did you expect mate it's absolutely logical...

[ArrowsFA1]

Who are the 5 best drivers and car developers?
Top five drivers is fun to think about. I think they fall into three groups:

IMHO Alonso and Hamilton are top of the class, with Alonso pipping it for the #1 slot by virtue of his experience, and with that his consistency. Hamilton's not far off though.

#3 for me is Kimi. He's not top knotch though. Being his own man is great when things are going well, but when they're not so good he contributes less to the whole, and it's the whole that makes a winning team.

#'s 4 & 5? Tough to say. Vettel, Kubica, Button, Rosberg, Massa are the main contenders for the last two places, with my pick being Button and Massa.

As for the best car developers... :confused: Fernando "6-tenths" Alonso maybe, but if listing the best 5 drivers is a difficult pick, then this is almost impossible. There are too many variables for us to make anything approaching an educated guess.

[aryan]

1) Kimi
2) Hamilton
3) Alonso
4) Vettel
5) Button

[Hondo]

It's funny how many lists Button isn't on.

I left Massa out of consideration because he is currently not driving and it remains to be seen if his ordeal will have a negative effect on his abilities when he returns.

[truefan72]

In this order for me

1) Alonso
2) Hamilton
3) Raikkonen
4) Vettel
5) Kubica

[truefan72]

It's funny how many lists Button isn't on.



Button is a smooth consistne driver who is really good but not great.
His does not have peaks or valley's in his performance so if the car is not top notch he does not shine

The top drives I mentioned are guys who can get more out of their car than is expected.

I've never seen a world champ who effectively won the WDC in the first 8 races of the year when his car was leaps and bounds better than the rest (unfairly some might suggest) and then was unable to deliver a decent result or win in remaining half of the year. Yes other cars have caught up to the Brawn, But Rubens still managed 2 wins in the 2nd half of the season while Button has been a low points scorer.

Any of the 5 drivers I mentioned would have performed better than Button in the second half of the season and that's why he is not on my list.

[ioan]

Best drivers :

Alonso
Kimi
Vettel
Hamilton
Massa

Yep, this would be it, in no specific order.

[SGWilko]

Hmmm, car development....

I agree that the drivers role in this - in terms of car design and initial development is non existent.

The role of the driver, to aid development, is to be able to drive the car to its max potential, lap after lap.

I read an article on Autosport I think where McLaren appreciated Raikkonen's ability in this area.

As for race set-up, I think certainly Rubens is the king, then Alonso and perhaps Massa, given how good he was in an admittedly difficult Ferrari.

Hamilton is more of the Ayrton mould - he has the ability, like Fred, to drive around a problem, and make a turd look quick!

[wedge]

As for those praising Alonso so much, why hasnt the super-dooper tester done much with the Renault the last 2 years?

Because the car was has been crap.

He a better time last year because Renault developed a car into a podium from nowhere and beating Kubica/BMW at the end of 2008 as third best driver/car in Japan-China-Brazil.

His best race was at Fuji. He told the team he wanted to come in early on the first pit stop knowing full well the BMWs eats its tyres over a stint.

[SGWilko]

last year because Renault developed a car into a podium from nowhere.

Bingo. And, I think we would have seen Renault exit stage left at the end of this season, but the crashgate deal with the FIA backed them into a corner, and forced them to stay.

So, this years was no doubt run on a shoestring.

[555-04Q2]

Drivers have very little to do with car development.

I think Ferrari and Schumacher would argue that one with you as would Alonso and Renault as would others that worked with the likes of Senna.

Developers develop cars to suit their drivers, as they are the ones that are going to actually drive them.

[555-04Q2]

As for race set-up, I think certainly Rubens is the king, then Alonso and perhaps Massa, given how good he was in an admittedly difficult Ferrari.

:up: Totally agree :up: He was great at setting up cars at Ferrari where even Schumacher used his setups. He has a knack for getting it right.

[harsha]

A-League - Alonso , Kimi , Hamilton

B-League - Massa , Vettel , Rosberg

C-League - Button , Barrichello , Kubica , Heidfeld , Fisichella , Glock , Trulli ,Sutil , Webber

D-League - Alguersari , Grosjean , Nakajima , Liuzzi , Buemi

[jens]

It's funny, how almost everyone has put Massa below Räikkönen. Some drivers never really get the appreciation they deserve. Maybe it has something to do with the amount of fans, which KR has a lot more, which in turn influences such 'votings'.

[wedge]

I think Ferrari and Schumacher would argue that one with you as would Alonso and Renault as would others that worked with the likes of Senna.

Different in Senna's time. Senna could tell Honda engineers everything they wanted to hear before they could download and interpret the data.

Schumi was actually crap in testing. Don't believe me? Eddie Irvines bares all the secrets at Fiorano: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Michael-Schumacher-Greatness-James-Allen/dp/0755316509/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254921267&sr=8-8

[truefan72]

It's funny, how almost everyone has put Massa below Räikkönen. Some drivers never really get the appreciation they deserve. Maybe it has something to do with the amount of fans, which KR has a lot more, which in turn influences such 'votings'.

er compare their two careers and it is not even a contest.
Having one good season with 5 race wins and one gifted to you does not make you a top flight driver, especially when in that same season he showed a lack a lack of skill at silverstone.

Massa is in the 2nd tier, and there is no shame to that

which in my book is Button, Webber, Rosberg, Massa, Buemi

[jens]

er compare their two careers and it is not even a contest.
Having one good season with 5 race wins and one gifted to you does not make you a top flight driver, especially when in that same season he showed a lack a lack of skill at silverstone.

Massa is in the 2nd tier, and there is no shame to that

which in my book is Button, Webber, Rosberg, Massa, Buemi

Team-mate comparison is the main method we can use and if you're going to compare their careers, then unlike Kimi Massa had never been in a top car before 2006, so he couldn't have possibly got as good results.

It really seems a bit of Piquet vs Mansell. Nowadays I suppose many people rate Mansell higher than Piquet, but when their duel began in 1986, Piquet was rated much higher after his successful career with Brabham, while Mansell still had a lot to prove. But over 86-87 (especially '87, despite having clearly lesser reliability) NM outperformed NP.

[BeansBeansBeans]

It's funny, how almost everyone has put Massa below Räikkönen. Some drivers never really get the appreciation they deserve. Maybe it has something to do with the amount of fans, which KR has a lot more, which in turn influences such 'votings'.

People suggesting World Champion is better than non-World Champion shock.

[ArrowsFA1]

NM outperformed NP.
Person suggesting non-World Champion is better than World Champion shock :eek: :p

[havk]

it just for fun because you can't simply compare abilities of the drivers (different team etc.) but:
1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
Vettel
Kubica (ex aequo)
5. Raikkonen


After thinking I changed my list a bit :-D I think I could divide current F1 drivers into 5 categories:

1. Best stars - no doubt Alonso and rather Hamilton
Alonso - just awesome in 2005 and 2006 he's battle with Schumacher was fantastic, also could list some awesome races like for example Hungary'06.
Hamilton - show sometimes really awesome performance like in Deutchland'08. His win was in hmm... Schumacher style :-D.

2. Title contenders (or already champion) but need to prove sth
Massa, Raikkonen, Button

Raikkonen - 2007 champion but disappointing in 2008 an 2nd half of 2009 season. In last races showed really good performance. It would be fantastic to see him with Hamilton in 2009 in McLaren.

Massa - very solid driver, some really good races but also still some bad (for example Silverstone'08). In 2009 season, driving in the same team with Alonso he could prove he's the best on the grid.

Button - probably this year champion but his win isn't strong (bad 2nd half of the season) - he'd considered just solid driver if not this year.

3. Future contenders - they could be future champions or just end as "solid drivers"
Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg
Vettel - this year really good, some spectacular wins in difficult condition like for example in Monza'08
Kubica - very good last year, this year very unlucky, if he didn't join winning team he could end like Button or Fisichella who wasted most of theirs carriers in weak teams
Rosberg - very solid this and previous year, like above must join winning team

4. Solid drivers
Barichello, Webber, Heidfeld, Trulli, Glock, Sutil, Fisichella, Kovalainen, maybe some other drivers I forgot to list

5. Outsiders
I have respect to all F1 drivers, but no doubt there are some outsiders - not sure is this because of bad cars or rather not so good abilities, some of them are rookies so they can still have a future in F1: Nakajima, Algersuari, Buemi, Grosjean,

[N. Jones]

If you poll all the teams

Who are the 5 best drivers and car developers?

I think it would be quite interesting.

The two best drivers are Alonso and Raikkonen as I cannot think of anyone else close to them.

[555-04Q2]

Different in Senna's time. Senna could tell Honda engineers everything they wanted to hear before they could download and interpret the data.

Schumi was actually crap in testing. Don't believe me? Eddie Irvines bares all the secrets at Fiorano: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Michael-Schumacher-Greatness-James-Allen/dp/0755316509/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254921267&sr=8-8

Eddie Irvine is a poor source for any information that does not concern good looking women ;)

[555-04Q2]

It's funny, how almost everyone has put Massa below Räikkönen. Some drivers never really get the appreciation they deserve. Maybe it has something to do with the amount of fans, which KR has a lot more, which in turn influences such 'votings'.

Its called "hype"

[wedge]

Eddie Irvine is a poor source for any information that does not concern good looking women ;)

Brawn even backed up Irvine. Irvine did more testing laps than Schumi.