When we disagree [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Valve Bounce

3rd October 2009, 11:22

I went to the Art Centre in Melbourne today, and one of the items that impressed me most was an etching by Rembrandt entitled "Two men disputing" - it showed two old guys arguing over something, very animated, yet it was obvious they were lifelong friends.

I thought right away :"That's what I'd like our forum to be". Why would anyone come here just to agree with everyone else? The point is to have a sensible argument, animated often, but without any malice, or anyone patronising others just to show how intelligent, informed, knowledgeable they are in order to point out how ignorant some others here in this forum are.

I would have tacked this post onto the "protocol" thread, but unfortunately, that has been locked.

Does this make any sense to anyone else here?

harsha

8th October 2009, 19:01

@Valve...my two cents on this

I think this forum is one of the best places where you can have a sane,sensible discussion most of the time...I'm not saying this forum is perfect but it has the right mix of fun + discussions about racing which make it so very nice to visit...

But if you go to other forums,I don't think you will find this level of discussions nor have so much fun... I have a discussion forum on cricket and trust me the discussions get more animated and more posts are filled with malice than this forum...esp when you are talking about India / Pakistan rivalry with the traditional bias.

I understand the point you've made though...what you've stated does come under the ideal situation but this is a pretty ideal forum to me.

tmx

10th October 2009, 00:30

There are a lot of insulting going around in this forum. The key is people don't use curse words, but in their sarcasm and analogies, which to me is worse than name calling. I know I'm not completely innocent either. But just read the threads existing in the general section right now that involves political issues.

A while ago I proposed a separate section in the rally forums for the purpose of bashing drivers. Now I proposed having a separate section topics involving alcohol, crime, political, religion. A section specifically for dispute and disagreements.

leopard

12th October 2009, 08:45

I think forum is place which we learn each other from, discussion on forum is to put forward opinion or anything we know which may be useful for others and on the other hand we may learn something new from others. Know how to listen and you will profit, even from those who talk badly...

If we have to be at cross of someone's opinion, believe it's only part of proses of learning. We may find each of us different on saying or defending opinion. Some of us may often use it by allusion in order to tease others. Don't take it too personal if that happens against our thought.

I can say if it comes to something like political views, I'd rather consider that we only try to make a fun of it. Mostly we go to vote only if we can get up early... ;)

racefanfromnj

12th October 2009, 22:01

In the words of a famous American Rodney King "why can we all just get along"

AAReagles

17th October 2009, 21:53

I think this forum is one of the best places where you can have a sane,sensible discussion most of the time...I'm not saying this forum is perfect but it has the right mix of fun + discussions about racing which make it so very nice to visit...

But if you go to other forums,I don't think you will find this level of discussions nor have so much fun... I have a discussion forum on cricket and trust me the discussions get more animated and more posts are filled with malice than this forum....

I understand the point you've made though...what you've stated does come under the ideal situation but this is a pretty ideal forum to me.
:up: :up: Me too, otherwise I wouldn't bother returning to it on occassion. Though I'm not that inclined to stay on for hours on end.

In the words of a famous American Rodney King "why can we all just get along"
:laugh: What a riot!... OOOPS! :eek:

BDunnell

18th October 2009, 21:54

Well, we now see a classic example of the main problem with these forums — specifically the F1 one, in the Brazilian GP/WDC threads. Differing opinions are all very well and to be encouraged, but sadly I have come to the view that certain individuals, one in particular, are utterly unable to put them across in a sensible manner. I like to discuss motorsport with fellow enthusiasts. Not everyone here can be classed as such.

donKey jote

18th October 2009, 22:20

to be fair, there is often a good deal of baiting going on from the other side of the Channel too ;)
It's so easy to use the ignore - most of the time :D

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

BDunnell

18th October 2009, 22:41

to be fair, there is often a good deal of baiting going on from the other side of the Channel too ;)
It's so easy to use the ignore - most of the time :D

But when the poster in question comes to dominate the thread, there is a bigger problem. Unfortunately I think that some people are utterly unable to conduct themselves in a manner conducive to sensible discussion, and that the moderators ought to realise this.

Dave B

18th October 2009, 23:22

BDunnell

18th October 2009, 23:34

pino

19th October 2009, 07:50

pino

19th October 2009, 08:09

They are there — one has posted in one of the threads this evening. But it would be nice if they did something once in a while.

Because yesterday was a special day where the Champ was decided, I decided to delete the rude posts only and forget about the rest. Otherwise I should've banned at least 4 members...is that what you want ?

Daniel

19th October 2009, 09:24

What moderators? The F1 championship was decided earlier today, emotions are running high, and yet there's no moderators to be seen. As a result, one individual is running amok posting the most idiotic drivel imaginable then playing the victim the moment they're called on it.
I don't mean to be rude but you could just ignore him/her?

As DonkeyJote says it's a two way street and if people don't like the heat perhaps they should get out of the kitchen. It seems like people don't like the fact that a champion is coming up for some criticism and I guess I can understand that a little but people have the right to criticise and make whatever points they want to.

I think people want the F1 forum ruled like a police state sometimes but only when it means that their rivals will be silenced. This is life peoples and if someone disagrees with you then they're allowed to as long as they don't make it personal and aren't being nasty.

Dave B

19th October 2009, 09:43

Dave, I've had some relatives for dinner last night, and I could not leave them alone at the table because of the forum. Sorry for having a life besides the forum...
I've said before that it's not a criticism of individual moderators, rather a plea for there to be more of them. I wouldn't expect you or anyone to put the forum above family committments; I would expect there to be more moderators around for important events like this.

...and btw there is more than one individual, should I ban all of them ?
If they're all equally guility, yes. Warned for their behaviour and if they continue: banned.

Dave B

19th October 2009, 09:45

I don't mean to be rude but you could just ignore him/her?

As DonkeyJote says it's a two way street and if people don't like the heat perhaps they should get out of the kitchen. It seems like people don't like the fact that a champion is coming up for some criticism and I guess I can understand that a little but people have the right to criticise and make whatever points they want to.

I've never had any problem with people disagreeing with me, or criticising a driver I support. However, as you well know, there's one particular member who changes his/her opinion to suit the prevailing wind, who hurls abuse around then whines like a baby when anybody dares answer back, and is currently lagging slightly behind David Cameron for the title of world's biggest hypocrite.

Anybody else would be called a troll and banned; but some people appear to be Telfon coated.

BDunnell

19th October 2009, 11:28

I don't mean to be rude but you could just ignore him/her?

As DonkeyJote says it's a two way street and if people don't like the heat perhaps they should get out of the kitchen. It seems like people don't like the fact that a champion is coming up for some criticism and I guess I can understand that a little but people have the right to criticise and make whatever points they want to.

I think people want the F1 forum ruled like a police state sometimes but only when it means that their rivals will be silenced. This is life peoples and if someone disagrees with you then they're allowed to as long as they don't make it personal and aren't being nasty.

No, this is very different. There is one member who has become completely impossible, yet nothing is ever done about it. Everyone else is perfectly tolerable no matter what their opinions are. Go back through the threads in question and you will see that. There are ways of expressing opinions and having discussions. The member in question has not a clue about this, and it is time something was done about it.

Daniel

19th October 2009, 11:32

No, this is very different. There is one member who has become completely impossible, yet nothing is ever done about it. Everyone else is perfectly tolerable no matter what their opinions are. Go back through the threads in question and you will see that. There are ways of expressing opinions and having discussions. The member in question has not a clue about this, and it is time something was done about it.
Pino can't ban someone for having opinions you don't agree with or reasoning that is flawed no matter how crazy it may seem. Free speach and all. I've not seen anyone breaking the forum rules in the F1 forum that often. I have seen people talking crap with no factual basis but yet again I must repeat that Pino can hardly ban someone because they don't reason things like you or I would want them to.

BDunnell

19th October 2009, 11:48

Pino can't ban someone for having opinions you don't agree with or reasoning that is flawed no matter how crazy it may seem. Free speach and all. I've not seen anyone breaking the forum rules in the F1 forum that often. I have seen people talking crap with no factual basis but yet again I must repeat that Pino can hardly ban someone because they don't reason things like you or I would want them to.

You misunderstand. I do not have a problem with differing opinions. Look at the threads I'm talking about and you will see plenty of examples of differing opinions expressed in a mature, sensible and well-thought-out manner. But one forum member is incapable of this and has, as I said, become impossible. I simply cannot understand why the moderators do not realise this, although I do have one theory that it might be impolite for me to post.

I'm sure the mods would express the view that banning this one member is not the answer and he should just be ignored instead. This is not the answer, because he comes to dominate threads to an extent that makes ignoring his vitriol and his, frankly, almost schizophrenic (not a word I use lightly) hypocrisy impossible. Sorry, but it's time for action to be taken and for him to be banned permanently if the F1 forum is not to go completely out of control, for I am convinced that this one member is the root cause of most of the trouble. I don't normally moan like this about such matters, but my enjoyment of debating things on the F1 forum has almost been reduced to zero. This is the fault of one member and inadequate moderation of that member.

Daniel

19th October 2009, 11:56

You misunderstand. I do not have a problem with differing opinions. Look at the threads I'm talking about and you will see plenty of examples of differing opinions expressed in a mature, sensible and well-thought-out manner. But one forum member is incapable of this and has, as I said, become impossible. I simply cannot understand why the moderators do not realise this, although I do have one theory that it might be impolite for me to post.

I'm sure the mods would express the view that banning this one member is not the answer and he should just be ignored instead. This is not the answer, because he comes to dominate threads to an extent that makes ignoring his vitriol and his, frankly, almost schizophrenic (not a word I use lightly) hypocrisy impossible. Sorry, but it's time for action to be taken and for him to be banned permanently if the F1 forum is not to go completely out of control, for I am convinced that this one member is the root cause of most of the trouble. I don't normally moan like this about such matters, but my enjoyment of debating things on the F1 forum has almost been reduced to zero. This is the fault of one member and inadequate moderation of that member.
Links?

It's hilarious to think that just one member is the cause of all problems on the F1 forum. Having been here for as long as you have you must surely realise that the cause of the friction in the F1 forum is the fact that F1 is such a cut throat sport and also one where people are very tribal.

It's a disucssion forum and we're all adults. As Donkey Jote suggested yesterday just add him/her to your ignore list if you don't like what they say and suggest that others do the same.

BDunnell

19th October 2009, 12:57

Links?

To what?

It's hilarious to think that just one member is the cause of all problems on the F1 forum. Having been here for as long as you have you must surely realise that the cause of the friction in the F1 forum is the fact that F1 is such a cut throat sport and also one where people are very tribal.

No, one member is the problem, to a large degree, for the reasons I outlined above. It amazes me that certain people can't see this; also, that they seem unaware of the very specific nature of the problems with him.

It's a disucssion forum and we're all adults. As Donkey Jote suggested yesterday just add him/her to your ignore list if you don't like what they say and suggest that others do the same.

Again, as I said, this simply isn't the answer.

BeansBeansBeans

19th October 2009, 14:23

I think it should be possible to disagree with someone whilst remaining on friendly, or at least civil terms.

One of the my bugbears on here (and elsewhere on the web) are emoticons. I simply can't bear it when I post an opinion and someone sees fit to reply with a little yellow face rolling around laughing. If you disagree then for God's sake explain why and do so using words.

Daniel

19th October 2009, 14:54

Links?

It's hilarious to think that just one member is the cause of all problems on the F1 forum. Having been here for as long as you have you must surely realise that the cause of the friction in the F1 forum is the fact that F1 is such a cut throat sport and also one where people are very tribal.

It's a disucssion forum and we're all adults. As Donkey Jote suggested yesterday just add him/her to your ignore list if you don't like what they say and suggest that others do the same.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? :confused:

You say "look at the threads I'm talking about" and expect me to read your mind. This is what i'm talking about when I say "Links?"

I suspect I know who you're talking about and whilst yes this person is part of the problem the F1 forum isn't just magically going to be better, on the other side there are also people who are just as bad as him and there is also a group of people who will troll for a response for him or even mention his name in threads that he's not yet been in.

I have a different view of this person, I feel that most of the problems caused directly or indirectly by him could be avoided by simply ignoring him when he does say something which pushes peoples buttons. I also think that the reactions towards this person on the rare occasion that he says something good about Hamilton or McLaren are not exactly helpful when it comes to promoting harmony on the forums.

BBB, I think a :rotflmao: smiley is appropriate sometimes. If I said that Fiat have 50 years history is building reliable and rust free cars what would you do? Type out a well reasoned post to debate the points with someone who obviously has no freaking idea or :rotflmao: ?

BDunnell

19th October 2009, 15:17

Are you being deliberately obtuse? :confused:

You say "look at the threads I'm talking about" and expect me to read your mind. This is what i'm talking about when I say "Links?"

Not at all. Links to the posts I consider particularly ridiculous, or those that are examples of how to offer an opinion that is different to the majority?

I suspect I know who you're talking about and whilst yes this person is part of the problem the F1 forum isn't just magically going to be better, on the other side there are also people who are just as bad as him and there is also a group of people who will troll for a response for him or even mention his name in threads that he's not yet been in.

I have a different view of this person, I feel that most of the problems caused directly or indirectly by him could be avoided by simply ignoring him when he does say something which pushes peoples buttons. I also think that the reactions towards this person on the rare occasion that he says something good about Hamilton or McLaren are not exactly helpful when it comes to promoting harmony on the forums.

No, this person is impossibly rude. Maybe not by your standards, but by mine, and those of others, it seems, he is now beyond the pale. He should be banned permanently.

BBB, I think a :rotflmao: smiley is appropriate sometimes. If I said that Fiat have 50 years history is building reliable and rust free cars what would you do? Type out a well reasoned post to debate the points with someone who obviously has no freaking idea or :rotflmao: ?

The way the poster to whom I am referring uses them is exceptionally rude.

Daniel

19th October 2009, 15:41

Not at all. Links to the posts I consider particularly ridiculous, or those that are examples of how to offer an opinion that is different to the majority?

No, this person is impossibly rude. Maybe not by your standards, but by mine, and those of others, it seems, he is now beyond the pale. He should be banned permanently.

The way the poster to whom I am referring uses them is exceptionally rude.
I think your post is thoroughly unacceptable. Calling for this person to be banned purely because you and a few people don't like the way he voices his opinions is just childish and not what I'd expect from a mature person like yourself.

Pino's got better things to do than ban someone because a few people can't accept that he doesn't want to kneel down and worship at the Button altar. I don't think Button is the best champion ever but tbh I cbf dealing with all the Brits who freak out whenever you say something negative about one of their teams or drivers.

BDunnell

19th October 2009, 16:27

I think your post is thoroughly unacceptable. Calling for this person to be banned purely because you and a few people don't like the way he voices his opinions is just childish and not what I'd expect from a mature person like yourself.

What I expect is for people on here to be sensible. The person I'm talking about isn't, and repeatedly.

Pino's got better things to do than ban someone because a few people can't accept that he doesn't want to kneel down and worship at the Button altar. I don't think Button is the best champion ever but tbh I cbf dealing with all the Brits who freak out whenever you say something negative about one of their teams or drivers.

How many more times do I have to say that I am not talking about the opinions themselves, but the way in which they are expressed? The sole reason you are defending this is because of your own views on the subject you mention. I don't feel strongly one way or the other on it. What I do feel strongly about is the behaviour of one individual in particular on these forums, which I consider to be utterly intolerable.

pino

19th October 2009, 16:50

One of the my bugbears on here (and elsewhere on the web) are emoticons. I simply can't bear it when I post an opinion and someone sees fit to reply with a little yellow face rolling around laughing. If you disagree then for God's sake explain why and do so using words.

I hate that smile too, unless is used in a funny way and not when quoting someone, just for the sake of making fun of the poster...as many do in F1 Forum :hmph:

harsha

19th October 2009, 17:44

I agree with Daniel...I've had my "encounters" with Ioan(fail to see why you aren't taking the name of the person in question) and I don't agree with quite a lot of his opinions but banning ain't the solution....

BeansBeansBeans

19th October 2009, 18:42

I've had my "encounters" with Ioan and I don't agree with quite a lot of his opinions

From what I've seen he disagrees with quite lot of his own opinions too.

Daniel

19th October 2009, 18:49

From what I've seen he disagrees with quite lot of his own opinions too.
Well then leave him to it. What's your problem? So what if he disagrees with things he's said in the past. Big whoop-de-doo, live and let live, c'est la vie, stop being a bunch of crybabies etc etc.

harsha

19th October 2009, 19:04

Well then leave him to it. What's your problem? So what if he disagrees with things he's said in the past. Big whoop-de-doo, live and let live, c'est la vie, stop being a bunch of crybabies etc etc.

just one quick question Dan...at the risk of being branded a troller,do u have the highest post count in this forum :cheese:

just noticed your post count :D

Daniel

19th October 2009, 19:50

just one quick question Dan...at the risk of being branded a troller,do u have the highest post count in this forum :cheese:

just noticed your post count :D
Nope :p Racefanstan holds that dubious honour! If I hadn't been banned for about 8 months back in 2004 I guess I'd be the highest poster.

BDunnell

19th October 2009, 20:53

Well then leave him to it. What's your problem? So what if he disagrees with things he's said in the past. Big whoop-de-doo, live and let live, c'est la vie, stop being a bunch of crybabies etc etc.

Why should we have to leave him to it? And, in any case, it is impossible. Look at the post-Brazilian GP threads. His attitude has become totally unacceptable. If you think it is acceptable, well, I'd reconsider that.

Daniel and pino, I suggest you read the thread to which I'm referring again. I just have. There would be virtually no animosity within it were it not for one member, and quite why this is so hard to see I simply cannot understand.

christophulus

19th October 2009, 22:35

Hmm..

As has been suggested many times, by myself and others, why don't you just ignore someone if they really bother you. Treat them like a toddler.. if they don't get attention they get tired and move on. Moderators should only be needed for dealing with personal attacks (and I mean real, vicious insults, not just disagreeing with a view), spambots etc.

And while I'm thinking about it, I for one am sick of seeing threads where a few members just bicker back and forth about something completely irrelevant - and there's quite a few posters who get sucked into this trap. It's half the reason I don't post as often, by the time I get around to a thread it's been ruined and any constructive posts about the original topic get ignored.

Just carry on posting on topic, disregard the stupid posts and the board will self moderate!

donKey jote

19th October 2009, 23:47

BDunnell

20th October 2009, 00:09

Hmm..

As has been suggested many times, by myself and others, why don't you just ignore someone if they really bother you. Treat them like a toddler.. if they don't get attention they get tired and move on.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if quite a lot of ignoring goes on in this case. But it doesn't do any good.

Believe me, I wouldn't complain unless I felt really strongly about this.

pino

20th October 2009, 06:45

Dave B

20th October 2009, 08:47

Well I'll add two people to my ignore list and see if it makes any difference :)

Daniel

20th October 2009, 15:25

Well I'll add two people to my ignore list and see if it makes any difference :)
Sensible thing to do Dave :up:

If I were a moderator what I would do would be to institute a new banning policy where those responsible on both sides are banned for for a couple of weeks now and then also institute a ban for the next 2 races so ban people from Thursday-Thursday of race week so people can't discuss what they come here for. The penalty system at the moment is a good idea but it doesn't penalise people enough, so much so that when I got an absolute joke of a penalty on July 23 last year (just so Pino can see it if he wants to) which Mark agreed was silly, he didn't even bother taking it back because in practice it wasn't going to lead to any sort of penalty for me.

harsha

20th October 2009, 15:57

Daniel

20th October 2009, 16:01

I remember when the new forum started,there was a way of rating posts...too much of negative posts and you get banned etc...obviously,the members do always misuse and I remember that I got quite a lot of -ve rep for basically no fault of mine too....but if there was a system where only the mods can give out the -ve rep or the +ve rep...then that would be ideal...whenever the rep touches some number,that would consititute a temporary ban...repeated offenses could lead to permanent bans

also,I think there should be a way for people to check their PM's even if they are banned
Sadly there were a few people on this forum who weren't sensible enough to use the system like adults. One member in particular saw fit to give me negative rep with insults and also comments about Caroline attached to it. In the spirit of this thread I'll not name names so let's just simply call him RaceFanS.

Daniel

20th October 2009, 16:01

I remember when the new forum started,there was a way of rating posts...too much of negative posts and you get banned etc...obviously,the members do always misuse and I remember that I got quite a lot of -ve rep for basically no fault of mine too....but if there was a system where only the mods can give out the -ve rep or the +ve rep...then that would be ideal...whenever the rep touches some number,that would consititute a temporary ban...repeated offenses could lead to permanent bans

also,I think there should be a way for people to check their PM's even if they are banned
Also there is a points system whereby the mods can give you points for an offence and when it hits a certain level you get a ban for a specified amount of time.

harsha

20th October 2009, 16:03

Sadly there were a few people on this forum who weren't sensible enough to use the system like adults. One member in particular saw fit to give me negative rep with insults and also comments about Caroline attached to it. In the spirit of this thread I'll not name names so let's just simply call him RaceFanS.

which is probably why,that system would be best done by mods so that there's little to no chance of misusing one...I've been on forums where that system works and I don't see why a bit of modification to the "rating system" won't work here

harsha

20th October 2009, 16:04

Also there is a points system whereby the mods can give you points for an offence and when it hits a certain level you get a ban for a specified amount of time.

that's great...precisely what i was mentioning

however,I don't seem to know my offense level.....if people and other people around them can know their offense level,then they would S.T.F.U as they would know the cut off point where to behave :D

Daniel

20th October 2009, 16:06

that's great...precisely what i was mentioning

however,I don't seem to know my offense level.....if people and other people around them can know their offense level,then they would S.T.F.U as they would know the cut off point where to behave :D
Harsha, if you don't know then that means you don't have any ;)

Believe me if people have offences they know about it :)

harsha

20th October 2009, 16:08

Harsha, if you don't know then that means you don't have any ;)

Believe me if people have offences they know about it :)

true...then why break something that's working...

ignore my previous posts then :cheese: :D

Daniel

20th October 2009, 16:08

true...then why break something that's working...

ignore my previous posts then :cheese: :D
Well it's obviously not working though :p

schmenke

20th October 2009, 16:50

I think the mods do a fine job here, allowing much lenience to members, and as has been said, they should not ban someone for expressing opinions. However, they can ban someone for being continually insulting, patronizing, condescending and generally detrimental to the enjoyment of the forums by others.

The ignore feature helps somewhat. A few weeks ago I've added a member to my list, but I am now invariably subject to threads that are little more than argumentative posts in response to that member, often using the "Quote" feature :mark: . The hostile and/or childish tone of the thread is still apparent.

Dave B

20th October 2009, 17:29

For the avoidance of doubt let me repeat that I believe individual mods do a good job, there just aren't enough of them.

BDunnell

20th October 2009, 23:15

schmenke

20th October 2009, 23:59

Given that a perfectly legitimate, non-hostile, non-argumentative thread by Bezza ('The Banning of Six Members') has been closed for no good reason...

I get the feeling Pino is trying to make a point... :mark:

donKey jote

21st October 2009, 00:45

bugger did I miss something again ? :( :p :

BDunnell

21st October 2009, 01:00

I get the feeling Pino is trying to make a point... :mark:

If that's the case, all it will do is cause more people to question the quality of the moderation — as it is already doing.

Alfa Fan

21st October 2009, 01:21

I love the irony of Daniel's earlier posts.

Valve Bounce

21st October 2009, 01:36

bugger did I miss something again ? :( :p :

Me too :(
It seems pino had to spend a lot of time cleaning up some stuff and from his post, he banned them while he cleaned up their mess.

Sorry, Bezza!! but I fully support pino, and I know how this forum will degenerate into an awful mess if he just decided to go on holidays instead. I've been around here for a long, long time, and I like this forum the way it is. That's why I started this thread.

Easy Drifter

21st October 2009, 03:13

I only posted in the closed thread a couple of times and tried to be neutral.
It did, in my opinion, get out of hand at times.
I do feel that some posters were out of line.
I also think that at least one poster not banned should have been.
I also feel that at least one poster banned should not have been.
However the thread was out of control!
Something had to be done and Pino did it.
He and I do not always agree but he has a, do I dare say it, god awful job to do.
None of us are perfect and Pino does, in my opinion a great job. He does more than just try and keep us under control in F1. He has other responsibilities on this forum.
Does he need help? Probably. The man has another life outside of here.
Am I volunteering? NO. I also get carried away at times and that is not good.
If any one on here thinks they can come close to doing the job Pino does, volunteer.
Hang tough Pino. You have my support for whatever it is worth.

pino

21st October 2009, 08:59

Given that a perfectly legitimate, non-hostile, non-argumentative thread by Bezza ('The Banning of Six Members') has been closed for no good reason, I have to voice my objections to the mods' actions in here. I agree totally with Bezza's views about it being ludicrous for the four people he mentions to have been banned, and think they should be reinstated as soon as possible.

Forums such as these will always provoke strong discussions. Thus, they need to be properly moderated. I don't feel that seemingly arbitrary bans of large groups of members are an example of that. Quite the reverse. Now, I fully expect that when those four people Bezza mentioned are reinstated, so too will the other two, thus demonstrating in at least one case that the moderators don't quite understand where the crux of the problem lay. Sorry, but that's how I feel and I hope nobody minds me saying so.

Now Mr BDunnel, is there anything wich I do that you like ? because if I don't take action you complain, and when I take action you complain as well. Oh I see...you want to decide whom to ban and whom not to ban. Well keep dreaming my friend, because I run F1 Forum not you.

As for Bezza's thread I don't have to explain my actions in here to none except for Mark (our Admin and owner of this board) not to mention that, what I did don't need an explaination considering (once again) the sticky thread about rules on top page, plus the 2 warnings/requests I was forced to post on that now closed thread after I had wasted almost 1 hour of my precious life to clean that thread.Those members stays banned until I decide to unban them like it or not.

And while here let me tell you that I am sick and tired of your complaints so I give you 2 choices : stay and accept the way I run the forum, or find another forum because I will not take any more critics/complaints from you !

I hope I've made myself clear in spite of my poor english...

Bezza

21st October 2009, 09:57

Now Mr BDunnel, is there anything wich I do that you like ? because if I don't take action you complain, and when I take action you complain as well. Oh I see...you want to decide whom to ban and whom not to ban. Well keep dreaming my friend, because I run F1 Forum not you.

As for Bezza's thread I don't have to explain my actions in here to none except for Mark (our Admin and owner of this board) not to mention that, what I did don't need an explaination considering (once again) the sticky thread about rules on top page, plus the 2 warnings/requests I was forced to post on that now closed thread after I had wasted almost 1 hour of my precious life to clean that thread.Those members stays banned until I decide to unban them like it or not.

And while here let me tell you that I am sick and tired of your complaints so I give you 2 choices : stay and accept the way I run the forum, or find another forum because I will not take any more critics/complaints from you !

I hope I've made myself clear in spite of my poor english...

I see, so you are now threatening BDunnell with a ban as well? That is not the way to moderate a forum at all - and your attitude in your first sentences towards him appalls me - we are all adults here and you just sound like your trying to show off your "power" over everybody else, when actually we are trying to raise a serious question.

Your attitude is sickening, "keep dreaming my friend" is not the way to moderate a forum at all and I will be shocked if anybody except yourself disagrees.

No doubt either this post will be deleted or I will be banned as well...!

Mark

21st October 2009, 10:16

Everything has gotten a wee bit out of control recently, and things need to be reigned back in.

The thread in the F1 forum was meant to be to contratulate Brawn and Button on their championship sucess, it should not have degenerated into a slanging match.

Pino warned the members concerned on several occasions to cool down, however these seemed to go unheeded so definitive action needed to be taken.

I've talked with Pino about it and the decision is that the bans in question will be in place until after the race at Abu Dhabi, a Grand Prix ban in accordance to the rules pino has had in place for a long while now.

Believe me, banning members is not something that we can take lightly, but when things get out of control a time out is needed to cool things down, and I thank pino for taking this action, it was not an easy decision and not one which is done on a whim and he knows that he'll not win many friends for it, but it was the best thing for the forum in the long run.

Mark

21st October 2009, 10:17

PS. Caroline has requested Daniel be banned for life. I'm taking it into consideration :idea:

Valve Bounce

21st October 2009, 10:52

I see, so you are now threatening BDunnell with a ban as well? That is not the way to moderate a forum at all - and your attitude in your first sentences towards him appalls me - we are all adults here and you just sound like your trying to show off your "power" over everybody else, when actually we are trying to raise a serious question.

Your attitude is sickening, "keep dreaming my friend" is not the way to moderate a forum at all and I will be shocked if anybody except yourself disagrees.

No doubt either this post will be deleted or I will be banned as well...!

Again you interpret things other than what was stated. This is what pino stated"And while here let me tell you that I am sick and tired of your complaints so I give you 2 choices : stay and accept the way I run the forum, or find another forum because I will not take any more critics/complaints from you !"

"Basically, if you guys don't like the way the forum is run, go somewhere else!!"
Most of us here like the way the forum is run by the moderators, and I have been here for a helluva long time. And if you want to know what other F1 forums you can enjoy, please send me a PM, because I can recommend some others, although they may be less tolerant, but just as informed and with great discussions.

ArrowsFA1

21st October 2009, 11:39

The thread in the F1 forum was meant to be to contratulate Brawn and Button on their championship sucess, it should not have degenerated into a slanging match.
That's what pisses me off more than anything else. What should have been a thread to discuss the new world champions, something worth discussing on an F1 forum, was derailed and descended into a pissing contest between a handful of people.

Not only was a thread ruined, as has happened before, but those of us who want to discuss Button and Brawn's achievements this year were denied the opportunity of doing so.

I share pino's frustration.

Bezza

21st October 2009, 12:15

Again you interpret things other than what was stated. This is what pino stated"And while here let me tell you that I am sick and tired of your complaints so I give you 2 choices : stay and accept the way I run the forum, or find another forum because I will not take any more critics/complaints from you !"

"Basically, if you guys don't like the way the forum is run, go somewhere else!!"
Most of us here like the way the forum is run by the moderators, and I have been here for a helluva long time. And if you want to know what other F1 forums you can enjoy, please send me a PM, because I can recommend some others, although they may be less tolerant, but just as informed and with great discussions.

I didn't quote that part. I am referring to "keep dreaming my friend" and in the other thread where he blows me a smiley kiss. Un-necessary sarcasm from a moderator in my opinion.

Mark has put things nice and eloquently and I am happy with that. I just wish pino could have some decorum about the situation himself - he can't blame it on poor English he understands what he is doing.

pino

21st October 2009, 12:24

That's what pisses me off more than anything else. What should have been a thread to discuss the new world champions, something worth discussing on an F1 forum, was derailed and descended into a pissing contest between a handful of people.

Not only was a thread ruined, as has happened before, but those of us who want to discuss Button and Brawn's achievements this year were denied the opportunity of doing so.

Exactly ! And this wasn't the first time I was forced to close a very good/interesting thread because of the childish behaviour of 5/6 members and again insted of reciving a big thanks for trying to keep the forum clean, I get complaints...can't believe it ! :crazy: :mad:

SGWilko

21st October 2009, 12:27

I've had some relatives for dinner

Hannibal, is that you m8? :rotflmao:

pino

21st October 2009, 12:33

Mark has put things nice and eloquently and I am happy with that. I just wish pino could have some decorum about the situation himself - he can't blame it on poor English he understands what he is doing.

I don't have to be nice and polite (although I did that many times in the past and none apprecciated it) there's a bloody 2 years old sticky thread on top page, why can't people read, respect and follow those rules and enjoy F1 and the forum ?????? :angryfire : Answer me that !

SGWilko

21st October 2009, 12:40

why can't people read, respect and follow those rules and enjoy F1 and the forum ?????? :angryfire : Answer me that !

Because it's a fundamental flaw in human nature that some cannot resist/are unable to ignore some posts.

Valve Bounce

21st October 2009, 12:48

I didn't quote that part. I am referring to "keep dreaming my friend" and in the other thread where he blows me a smiley kiss. Un-necessary sarcasm from a moderator in my opinion.

Mark has put things nice and eloquently and I am happy with that. I just wish pino could have some decorum about the situation himself - he can't blame it on poor English he understands what he is doing.

I see a very good reason why pino is frustrated when he warns forum members to behave and they continue to act like prats. I would suggest that you consider the job he has to do, and then seriously consider why this forum is a better place because of it.

And if you don't like the way this forum is run, well there are other options.

Bezza

21st October 2009, 12:56

I see a very good reason why pino is frustrated when he warns forum members to behave and they continue to act like prats. I would suggest that you consider the job he has to do, and then seriously consider why this forum is a better place because of it.

And if you don't like the way this forum is run, well there are other options.

I may well consider those options, along with other members here who are also feeling the same as I do. In the end, the forum is the big loser, as it will lose many users who post regularly and contribute a great deal to discussions.

And pino, I wasn't asking for politeness - it is about respect. Something which throughout this thread and the one I started you failed to show and instead resorted to pomposity and sarcasm.

pino

21st October 2009, 13:24

And pino, I wasn't asking for politeness - it is about respect. Something which throughout this thread and the one I started you failed to show and instead resorted to pomposity and sarcasm.

How you dare asking for respect, when in your posts in here and especially in the thread (now closed) you started yesterday, you don't show any respect for me and the work I do in here...

Bezza

21st October 2009, 13:49

How you dare asking for respect, when in your posts in here and especially in the thread (now closed) you started yesterday, you don't show any respect for me and the work I do in here...

I find it difficult to respect a moderator who consistently forces their own opinion over everybody elses when the job of a moderator is to remain impartial.

However, I understand and respect the job moderators as a whole have to do to keep the forum tidy. Sometimes though, you make mistakes as you have done here, and it is within my rights to point them out to you.

What doesn't help is your continued approach and apparent disregard for the people you are looking after, such as the sarcasm in my previous thread which was out of order.

We all like a good discussion - I think some of us feel that we are not allowed to do that any more without being mothered. We are adults - we can give and take in arguments and barring personal attacks then no thread needs to be censored or closed.

------------

Anyway, thats it for me on this matter. I won't write any more.

Lets all move on - Mark gave a good and honest description of what has happened and I will go along with that.

Over and out.

Valve Bounce

21st October 2009, 14:14

I may well consider those options, along with other members here who are also feeling the same as I do. In the end, the forum is the big loser, as it will lose many users who post regularly and contribute a great deal to discussions.

You can start counting; I'm on pino's side!! I think the forum will be the winner when those who feel as you do consider the options. I don't think we will lose many forum members at all - most of us greatly appreciate the job pino has to do and the people he has to put up with.

I think I've said enough on this subject.

markabilly

21st October 2009, 14:37

Why should we have to leave him to it? And, in any case, it is impossible. Look at the post-Brazilian GP threads. His attitude has become totally unacceptable. If you think it is acceptable, well, I'd reconsider that.

Daniel and pino, I suggest you read the thread to which I'm referring again. I just have. There would be virtually no animosity within it were it not for one member, and quite why this is so hard to see I simply cannot understand.

Not at all. Links to the posts I consider particularly ridiculous, or those that are examples of how to offer an opinion that is different to the majority?

No, this person is impossibly rude. Maybe not by your standards, but by mine, and those of others, it seems, he is now beyond the pale. He should be banned permanently.

The way the poster to whom I am referring uses them is exceptionally rude.

You misunderstand. I do not have a problem with differing opinions. Look at the threads I'm talking about and you will see plenty of examples of differing opinions expressed in a mature, sensible and well-thought-out manner. But one forum member is incapable of this and has, as I said, become impossible. I simply cannot understand why the moderators do not realise this, although I do have one theory that it might be impolite for me to post.

I'm sure the mods would express the view that banning this one member is not the answer and he should just be ignored instead. This is not the answer, because he comes to dominate threads to an extent that makes ignoring his vitriol and his, frankly, almost schizophrenic (not a word I use lightly) hypocrisy impossible. Sorry, but it's time for action to be taken and for him to be banned permanently if the F1 forum is not to go completely out of control, for I am convinced that this one member is the root cause of most of the trouble. I don't normally moan like this about such matters, but my enjoyment of debating things on the F1 forum has almost been reduced to zero. This is the fault of one member and inadequate moderation of that member.

I do not see how you escaped being banned.

You are the worst when it comes to hypocrisy, and you play a subtle game of attacking people in a personal manner that is intended to hurt. Then when they respond, you play the role of the victim, and do it all so well.

You should join that permanent ban list that you would put Ioan on, along with your running mate Henners.

Pino's problem he does not see through it very well, probably because of the language issues.

The real fault belongs to you for engaging this nonsense.

I found it particularly offensive in the thread about massa's injury, one of the few really serious subjects on this forum. Everything else should be fun and games..

wedge

21st October 2009, 15:58

Pino, as a moderator you have a position of power and as with any other public official, I like others here, feel your integrity should be questioned

Everything has gotten a wee bit out of control recently, and things need to be reigned back in.

The thread in the F1 forum was meant to be to contratulate Brawn and Button on their championship sucess, it should not have degenerated into a slanging match.

Pino warned the members concerned on several occasions to cool down, however these seemed to go unheeded so definitive action needed to be taken.

I've talked with Pino about it and the decision is that the bans in question will be in place until after the race at Abu Dhabi, a Grand Prix ban in accordance to the rules pino has had in place for a long while now.

Believe me, banning members is not something that we can take lightly, but when things get out of control a time out is needed to cool things down, and I thank pino for taking this action, it was not an easy decision and not one which is done on a whim and he knows that he'll not win many friends for it, but it was the best thing for the forum in the long run.

Thank you for your calm and measured response - unlike Pino.

I thought nothing wrong with the Button/Brawn thread. All it took was for reminders to cool down/back on topic. Seems like it was only Pino got tired of it all yo yo-ing back and forth.

We're here to discuss and debate. We're not here to be yes men and kiss each others butts, let alone Buttons and Brawns.

I find the banning of a number members in the past 24 hrs to grossly unfair and unjust.

Easy Drifter

21st October 2009, 16:49

Wedge I respect your opinions but I am one who was sick and tired of the carry on in that thread.
I think I also suggested we get back on track at one point and Pino did ask on the thread for people to cool down. I gather he did also send PM's.
I also agree with Markabilly.
I do belong to other forums and Pino allows more freedom than is allowed on most other forums.
Maybe that is why people get upset when he does crack down.
I feel he does a good job and all in all is pretty fair. Remember he does this as a volunteer and has a life beyond this forum.
And yes I have had a run in with Pino.
I for one do not want to see Pino get so cheesed off that he quits.
I know I would blow up far quicker than Pino if I was ever a mod. No I do not want to be one.
Now if you really want to see the insults fly read the joke column in Chit Chat.
There are a small group of us who really throw the insults and innuendos at each other there. The thing is that it is all in fun and unless you want to join in the nonsense you are left alone. In other words you can post jokes safely without being insulted until you take a shot at one of us nutcases. Then you become fair game.

pino

21st October 2009, 17:39

Pino, as a moderator you have a position of power and as with any other public official, I like others here, feel your integrity should be questioned

Thank you for your calm and measured response - unlike Pino.

I thought nothing wrong with the Button/Brawn thread. All it took was for reminders to cool down/back on topic. Seems like it was only Pino got tired of it all yo yo-ing back and forth.

We're here to discuss and debate. We're not here to be yes men and kiss each others butts, let alone Buttons and Brawns.

I find the banning of a number members in the past 24 hrs to grossly unfair and unjust.

Nothing wrong with that thread ? Are you serious ? :s How can you say that ? Do you have the power to read the many and many posts I had to delete or edit ? And what about the 2 warnings/requests I had to post within 24 hours, where I had to ask to quit the insults and stick to the topic ? It took me 1 hour to clean that thread and you expect me to stay calm or even give you a measured response? Tell me how many time do I have to ask people to respect Forum rules before banning them ? Tell me...how many times ? Can't believe how many ungrateful people there are in here... :blackeye:

Fred Basset

21st October 2009, 19:01

I do not see how you escaped being banned.

You are the worst when it comes to hypocrisy, and you play a subtle game of attacking people in a personal manner that is intended to hurt. Then when they respond, you play the role of the victim, and do it all so well.

You should join that permanent ban list that you would put Ioan on, along with your running mate Henners.

Pino's problem he does not see through it very well, probably because of the language issues.

The real fault belongs to you for engaging this nonsense.

I found it particularly offensive in the thread about massa's injury, one of the few really serious subjects on this forum. Everything else should be fun and games..

100% correct. Some of the stuff i had to put up with from him a while back with Dunnel making out he's some superior being was ridicoulous.

As for Daniel, good to see him banned. Hope its forever, He's a troll, nothing more, nothing less. 30000 plus posts prove that, always sticking his nose into stuff that doesn't concern him. 5 reported posts i sent when he was trying to get me banned "again" a while back and nothing was done. Glad to see he's got whats coming.

Your doing a great job Pino! :up:

Retlub Ecaps

21st October 2009, 19:15

Pino, as a moderator you have a position of power and as with any other public official, I like others here, feel your integrity should be questioned
But he's not a public official -- he's a volunteer, and this site is privately owned and run. He doesn't hold power over people's lives or livelihoods like a public official does; and if you automatically question the integrity of volunteers, then pretty soon you won't have any. Who would want to put in the time and work it takes to moderate a large forum if they wouldn't get paid for it, and would get treated with suspicion?

I think it's also important to keep in mind that the vast majority of administration and moderation work is invisible to most users. Everyone can see it when they make a mistake, or aren't around for a while; but when they do a great job, almost no one notices, because they get rid of problems before most users ever see them.

Valve Bounce

21st October 2009, 23:03

Pino, as a moderator you have a position of power and as with any other public official, I like others here, feel your integrity should be questioned

Thank you for your calm and measured response - unlike Pino.

I thought nothing wrong with the Button/Brawn thread. All it took was for reminders to cool down/back on topic. Seems like it was only Pino got tired of it all yo yo-ing back and forth.

We're here to discuss and debate. We're not here to be yes men and kiss each others butts, let alone Buttons and Brawns.

I find the banning of a number members in the past 24 hrs to grossly unfair and unjust.

Sorry, but you are wrong here. pino had to delete many posts that you now cannot read. His is a totally thankless task, and I just cannot understand why some guys here feel the need to have a shot at him. It will be a sad day when pino suddenly decides he's had enough - who the hell will do that job then?

AS I offered earlier, if anyone thinks that this forum is badly moderated, feel free to send me a PM and I will suggest alternative forums on motorsport which you can then enjoy.

I stand by pino!!

Valve Bounce

21st October 2009, 23:06

But he's not a public official -- he's a volunteer, and this site is privately owned and run. He doesn't hold power over people's lives or livelihoods like a public official does; and if you automatically question the integrity of volunteers, then pretty soon you won't have any. Who would want to put in the time and work it takes to moderate a large forum if they wouldn't get paid for it, and would get treated with suspicion?

I think it's also important to keep in mind that the vast majority of administration and moderation work is invisible to most users. Everyone can see it when they make a mistake, or aren't around for a while; but when they do a great job, almost no one notices, because they get rid of problems before most users ever see them.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Glad we have someone who sees this from outside the melee.

schmenke

22nd October 2009, 00:40

... Seems like it was only Pino got tired of it all yo yo-ing back and forth. ....

No it wasn't.

wedge

22nd October 2009, 01:22

Sorry, but you are wrong here. pino had to delete many posts that you now cannot read. His is a totally thankless task, and I just cannot understand why some guys here feel the need to have a shot at him. It will be a sad day when pino suddenly decides he's had enough - who the hell will do that job then?

AS I offered earlier, if anyone thinks that this forum is badly moderated, feel free to send me a PM and I will suggest alternative forums on motorsport which you can then enjoy.

I stand by pino!!

Seems like I'm in the minority here.

I don't think Pino does a bad job. On the whole he does a good job but people make mistakes and I feel the actions taken has been too far. All he had to do was close the thread rather than banning people.

Knock-On I'm very surprised by. One of the last I'd think who would get banned. I have firmly have had no problems with reading his posts. I'd be very surprised to think he would go as far as flagrantly attack other members.

Valve Bounce

22nd October 2009, 01:29

Seems like I'm in the minority here.

I don't think Pino does a bad job. On the whole he does a good job but people make mistakes and I feel the actions taken has been too far. All he had to do was close the thread rather than banning people.

Knock-On I'm very surprised by. One of the last I'd think who would get banned. I have firmly have had no problems with reading his posts. I'd be very surprised to think he would go as far as flagrantly attack other members.

Just think!! think what this place would degenerate into if pino decided to take the week off!! Do you want such a job??