Some WRC questions

[Retlub Ecaps]

Hi everyone.. I've been following the WRC avidly for the last two seasons, but never really knew any other rally fans, so now that I'm here I'm hoping people can tell me some of the things I haven't been able to figure out on my own yet. :D

What are the different sub-group classifications I see in entry lists on wrc.com? I've found info about Group A and Group N cars in general, but what's the difference between A8 and A6, or N4, N3, and N2? And what are R2 and R3? I haven't even heard of a "Group R" classification.

Also in those entry lists, what does the "Priority FIA" column mean? Priority 1 seems to be all the WRC-class drivers who are nominated for manufacturer points; is that all it is? Do drivers in certain priority classes get special privileges?

In onboard videos, Ford cars and a few others have a high-pitched whining noise, while cars like the C4 don't - with those I mostly hear the engine. I'm told the whining noise is from the gearbox, because instead of helical gears it has straight-cut ones, which are noisy but more efficient. If straight-cut gears are better, I assume the C4 must have them as well; why don't they make the same noise in onboard videos? Is the gearbox in a different place or something?

How much does the manufacturers' championship matter to most fans, compared to the drivers' championship?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can clear any of these up for me. :)

[Rallyper]

Hello space butler! :D

For sure everyone has the same cut gears. Maybe even from the same manufacturer, which use to be X-trac.

The manufacturers championship means a lot to the - manufacturers. Because of that the championship will go on. If they weren´t on, the wrc probably would have looked very differently.

For the fans it´s of course the brands, but mostly the drivers, like any other sport.

If you should come to europe and visit a certain rally it must be NORF, Neste oil Rally Finland. It the best rally season after season. :)

[Juha_Koo]

Quick answers to a few of your questions. :)



In onboard videos, Ford cars and a few others have a high-pitched whining noise, while cars like the C4 don't - with those I mostly hear the engine. I'm told the whining noise is from the gearbox, because instead of helical gears it has straight-cut ones, which are noisy but more efficient. If straight-cut gears are better, I assume the C4 must have them as well; why don't they make the same noise in onboard videos? Is the gearbox in a different place or something?


This seems to be endless debate in Youtube comments. :D The truth is, that the noises which can be heard in the onboard videos are due to different electrical/onboard camera systems. Well, basically the camera systems are all the same in the WRC, but I'm guessing that the ambient sound mic is positioned differently in Fords and Citroens... And that whining in those Ford onboards is basically some "electrical sound". Cameras/mics are receiving power somehow differently than in the Citroens, where you can't hear the electrical whining but just the engine noise. And yes, Citroens do have the straight-cut gearbox.



How much does the manufacturers' championship matter to most fans, compared to the drivers' championship?


For me personally, it's not nearly as a big achievement as the drivers championship. But the manufacturers and industry appreciate it.

[Retlub Ecaps]

Hello space butler! :D

Heheh, I wondered if anyone would notice that. :D I used to use Space Butler online, but other people use that too, so I started reversing it.


For sure everyone has the same cut gears. Maybe even from the same manufacturer, which use to be X-trac.

Ah, interesting. Has the WRC ever mandated a specific supplier the way they mandate Pirelli tires, or is it just that one company makes the best gearbox and then everyone uses it?


The manufacturers championship means a lot to the - manufacturers. Because of that the championship will go on. If they weren´t on, the wrc probably would have looked very differently.

For the fans it´s of course the brands, but mostly the drivers, like any other sport.

Yeah, that's about what I expected.. It's just not nearly as interesting to root for a manufacturer.

I was thinking it'd be interesting to see more of the rest of the team in rally coverage, like having a camera in the service bay showing what the crews have to do to get the cars in the best shape possible in the time limit. I'm guessing manufacturers would be too worried that other teams could watch the footage and steal secrets or something.


If you should come to europe and visit a certain rally it must be NORF, Neste oil Rally Finland. It the best rally season after season. :)

If I ever have the chance, I'll be there! :) I've been to Europe a couple of times, but haven't been able to go in 5 years now because I don't live near a major international airport, and getting to one adds about 50-100% to the cost of a ticket overseas. Next time I do have a chance, I may well try to schedule it to get to NORF; it looked like a great time. Seems like Finns feel the same way about rally as Canadians do about hockey, and I can totally respect that. :D

[Retlub Ecaps]

This seems to be endless debate in Youtube comments. :D The truth is, that the noises which can be heard in the onboard videos are due to different electrical/onboard camera systems. Well, basically the camera systems are all the same in the WRC, but I'm guessing that the ambient sound mic is positioned differently in Fords and Citroens... And that whining in those Ford onboards is basically some "electrical sound". Cameras/mics are receiving power somehow differently than in the Citroens, where you can't hear the electrical whining but just the engine noise. And yes, Citroens do have the straight-cut gearbox.

Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks for the answers. :)

One thing, though -- what do you mean by "electrical sound"? The whining seems to go up and down in pitch with the revs; wouldn't an electrical noise stay more constant?

[tmx]

For the classes, I think its better to leave for more knowledgeable members. We need L5->R5/CR right now for this thread. Here are some simple things, but please correct me if I am wrong:

Group N are divided into N1 through 4. From memory, they are in order: 1300cc, 1300-1600cc, 1600-2000cc, 2000cc or higher
Group A are 5 through 8. With A8 being the current WRC cars, and many kit cars are classified as A6.

There are also:
S1600 (1600cc) are for competing in J-WRC right now for young drivers.

Then there are two new classes, S2000 (2000cc), these race in the IRC series which is a challenger of the WRC series, which run as normally aspirated and less electronic aids so its a bit more physical to drive. They are high rev engines and less torque compared to WRCars so have to be driven to the limit. Right now I have much more fun watching IRC than WRC. But the FIA again has to change rules and decided that the future of the WRC is 1.6L engine with turbo, I think this is to keep interest of Citroen and Ford currently in WRC.

As for championship titles, if a team can't win the manu driver, they will try to get the driver title instead.

Personally driver titles don't mean much to me as a spectator. How much I like a driver is base on his driving style and what type of person he is. There are many championships that were influenced by team orders. In the past and today there are times when drivers are told to slow down so other drivers can win, there are many bad lucks that happen to drivers, such as Carlos Sainz in 1998 when his engine exploded 500m before the end. Then ofcourse there are situations and contracts where some drivers get a faster car or more supports, I don't dare name rally names, but Fernando Alonso is an example. But this is obvious and happens in any sports. But this is why I don't like it when people claim one driver is better than another simply because they have one more driver title or more wins. And many great drivers are not talked about because don't win a driver title. The situation changes as well, every season is different. I dare to say Colin only won 24 rallies, not 25, just ask Piero Liatti why, but that was a team decision, I still respect Colin.

[tmx]

But then Colin did had to slow down for Carlos, I guess that evens it out.

[Retlub Ecaps]

Thanks for the info, tmx, I appreciate it.

Why is 1.6L better to keep Ford and Citroen's interest? Because they were already planning to make engines that size for their production cars?

And I understand what you mean about not judging drivers by wins and titles, particularly in a sport where it costs so much to compete at top levels. That's partly why I want to learn more about the car classifications; right now I pretty much ignore all the competitors further down the running order, but if I knew more about the cars they use I figure I could at least watch to see if any of them are doing particularly well for their class.

Oh, and your mention of Colin brings up another question. I've seen a few of his onboards and such, so I can certainly understand why people admire him. He was a great driver, but as you mentioned yourself, there are other great drivers that don't get talked about nearly as much. Why is Colin McRae so famous?

[kiil]

Heheh, I wondered if anyone would notice that. :D I used to use Space Butler online, but other people use that too, so I started reversing it.

You're not that good at reversing words then :-)

[Retlub Ecaps]

You're not that good at reversing words then :-)

Nope. :p

Uh, I mean, I thought 'Retlub' read better than 'Reltub'. Yeah, that's it. :D

[jonkka]

Also in those entry lists, what does the "Priority FIA" column mean? Priority 1 seems to be all the WRC-class drivers who are nominated for manufacturer points; is that all it is? Do drivers in certain priority classes get special privileges?

FIA priority is a something of a relic these days and it means very little. In the old days, it was called "A" and "B" priority and given to drivers based only their results (something like winning a rally got you A priority for three years and finishing on points gave you B priority for 12 months or so). Today you get FIA priority simply by registering to a championship (priority 1 is for nominated works drivers, priority 2 for non-nominated works drivers/top drivers and priority 3 for P/JWRC drivers) so it's nothing to be proud of.

FIA priority drivers are guaranteed to get a place in the entry list over non-seeded drivers. This really hasn't been much of an issue except where number of entries have been restricted or late entries in over-subscribed rallies.

FIA priority did have a bearing on seeding (ie. deciding the starting order) but that's nowadays based on championship order (first day) or rally classification (2nd and 3rd days). However, rally organisers do group faster drivers together in certain circumstances but that's done due to safety reasons and not because of the priority.

Finally, FIA priorities 1 and 2 guarantees drivers to have 2 min running intervals, which is meaningful in dusty conditions.

[Retlub Ecaps]

Ahh, I see. Thanks, jonkka. :) So drivers who aren't priority 1 or 2 sometimes get less than a 2 minute interval?

[Wasted Talent]

For the classes, I think its better to leave for more knowledgeable members. We need L5->R5/CR right now for this thread. Here are some simple things, but please correct me if I am wrong:

Group N are divided into N1 through 4. From memory, they are in order: 1300cc, 1300-1600cc, 1600-2000cc, 2000cc or higher
Group A are 5 through 8. With A8 being the current WRC cars, and many kit cars are classified as A6.

There are also:
S1600 (1600cc) are for competing in J-WRC right now for young drivers.

Then there are two new classes, S2000 (2000cc), these race in the IRC series which is a challenger of the WRC series, which run as normally aspirated and less electronic aids so its a bit more physical to drive. They are high rev engines and less torque compared to WRCars so have to be driven to the limit. Right now I have much more fun watching IRC than WRC. But the FIA again has to change rules and decided that the future of the WRC is 1.6L engine with turbo, I think this is to keep interest of Citroen and Ford currently in WRC.

As for championship titles, if a team can't win the manu driver, they will try to get the driver title instead.

Personally driver titles don't mean much to me as a spectator. How much I like a driver is base on his driving style and what type of person he is. There are many championships that were influenced by team orders. In the past and today there are times when drivers are told to slow down so other drivers can win, there are many bad lucks that happen to drivers, such as Carlos Sainz in 1998 when his engine exploded 500m before the end. Then ofcourse there are situations and contracts where some drivers get a faster car or more supports, I don't dare name rally names, but Fernando Alonso is an example. But this is obvious and happens in any sports. But this is why I don't like it when people claim one driver is better than another simply because they have one more driver title or more wins. And many great drivers are not talked about because don't win a driver title. The situation changes as well, every season is different. I dare to say Colin only won 24 rallies, not 25, just ask Piero Liatti why, but that was a team decision, I still respect Colin.

Just like the rules for cricket really :)

WT

[Josti]

Why is Colin McRae so famous?

Well, he's famous for many reasons. First of all, he was the son of Jimmy McRae, a multiple British Rally Champion. He took Subaru's first WRC victory in 1993 and became World Champion two years later in 1995 (at age 27, still the youngest I think). Then there's the computer game, which gained a lot of populairity for the McRae name over the years, and the series is still continuing these days. But he's mostly famous because of his flamboyent driving style and his mindset. He was never so much a championship driver, but more so one that was going flat out for the individual wins, hence he got 25 in total. This filosofy did cost him a championship or two though, but is well appreciated among fans.

[jonkka]

Why is 1.6L better to keep Ford and Citroen's interest? Because they were already planning to make engines that size for their production cars?

It's 99% politics and 1% cost control. Mainly political because due to tough current financial situation and climate change the world's automobile manufacturers are (assumed) to move towards more energy efficient vehicles (read: initially gasoline engines with smaller displacement and biofuels but later electric/hybrid/fuel cell vehicles). Thus, a 20% reduction in engine displacement gives a greener image to motorsports.


Why is Colin McRae so famous?

There are many reasons with varying importance, depending on whom you ask.

I think that the number one reason was his extravagant driving style which left nobody cold - except team manager David Richards who had to pay for the damages. Neat and tidy drivers may be faster but rarely gather such following as Colin or mr Vatanen, for example.

Then there is the fact that Colin was the first real UK challenger for top honours. Yes, Roger Clark had been the first to win a WRC round but only one and already in 1976. Besides, Clark didn't challenge for the title because he never had full programme. McRae was another story - rallying at top level with top team and having a famous rallying father as well. All that made it very hard for any UK fans not to know about him and support him from quite early on.

Thirdly, outside UK his fame grew thanks to highly successful computer game series - the Colin McRae Rally (CMR for short). Besides generating a small fortune for Colin, it made him known outside the hard-core rally fans as well. And casual viewers outnumber hard-core fans by a huge margin.

[jonkka]

Ahh, I see. Thanks, jonkka. :) So drivers who aren't priority 1 or 2 sometimes get less than a 2 minute interval?

They get always one minute. Giving two minute intervals to all competitors would mean twice the longer road closing times during the rally - longer hours for marshals and longer wait for people living within the stage.

[MrJan]

I think that the number one reason was his extravagant driving style which left nobody cold - except team manager David Richards who had to pay for the damages. Neat and tidy drivers may be faster but rarely gather such following as Colin or mr Vatanen, for example.

Amen to that, Richard Burns was probably the better driver but I would far rather watch Colin. Whenever you watch videos of McRae in car you know that he is well on it. The man had balls the size of grapefruits :D

[Juha_Koo]

Why is Colin McRae so famous?

That's a very good question. :) Ofcourse, he is a world champion, but I've never totally understood the hype around him.

[tmx]

Why is 1.6L better to keep Ford and Citroen's interest? Because they were already planning to make engines that size for their production cars? It's my bs allegation anyway, take it as a grain of salt.


Why is Colin McRae so famous? These videos will easily answer the question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KPF548WA6g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHVFgR4LZcM

[Retlub Ecaps]

Thanks a lot for the informative answers, everyone! :) I'm really glad I found this board.

[pantealex]

For the classes, I think its better to leave for more knowledgeable members. We need L5->R5/CR right now for this thread. Here are some simple things, but please correct me if I am wrong:

Group N are divided into N1 through 4. From memory, they are in order: 1300cc, 1300-1600cc, 1600-2000cc, 2000cc or higher
Group A are 5 through 8. With A8 being the current WRC cars, and many kit cars are classified as A6.

There are also:
S1600 (1600cc) are for competing in J-WRC right now for young drivers.

N1/A5 less than 1400cc
N2/A6 1400-1600cc
N3/A7 1600-2000cc
N4/A8 2000cc-

Typical machinery for classes:
N1 vw polo 1.4 16v
N2 suzuki swift 1.6, vw polo 1.6 gti, citroen c2 vts
N3 honda civic type-r, renault clio 2.0 16v, ford fiesta st, opel astra
N4 subaru impreza, mitsu lancer evo, S2000 cars (peugeot,fiat,skoda,mg,proton,opel,vw,toyota etc.)
A5 vw polo, nissan micra
A6 R2 cars (citroen c2, ford fiesta) S1600 cars (citroen,suzuki,mg,vw,fiat,renault,opel,ford,peuge ot etc.)
A7 R3 cars (renault clio, honda civic)
A8 WRC cars

[cali]

That's a very good question. :) Ofcourse, he is a world champion, but I've never totally understood the hype around him.
Problably one of the most flamboyant driver ever in the stages - wayyyyyyyyy more spectacular compared to his competitors. But later in his career pure speed was killed by the electronic "devices", which did not suite him at all.

But ofcourse being a finn, you have some other ideas about Colin's popularity :) For me, the game did not affect at all, it was just pure pleasure to watch him on stages and it did not even matter if he was not the fastest in the later part of his career.

[janvanvurpa]

Thanks a lot for the informative answers, everyone! :) I'm really glad I found this board.


Here's where a lot of the reputation was built 1992-1997.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyH9Es0wh3Y&feature=related

But mostly the WIDESPREAD popularity beyond hard core rally fans was thru the video game. I heard people say all sorts of things like "He was the winningest driver EVER!!!" "First man to win in a turbo 4wd car" "Drove works Subaru to the top and Subaru was the first turbo 4wd car in rally" <----saw that in some popular US magazine. etc etc.

He WAS spactacular. And WAS the first British driver---even though he made a huge point of his being Scottish----to win at WRC level CONSISTENTLY, and WAS the highest paid driver for years, but he also burned a lot of bridges and couldn't get hired after a while.