Williams blocking moves for 14th team in 2010, USF1 effort still struggling

[Giuseppe F1]

The last paragraph here doesnt seem to make any sense..?

Seems Williams digging in their heels one against this year and that USF1 are still showing signs of not being as far progressed with their F1 effort than perhaps they should be....


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http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=347443&FS=F1

Williams blocking moves for 14th team in 2010
Date 2009-10-01
By Motorsport.com/GMM

Williams is opposing the FIA's efforts to expand the maximum 2010 grid from 13 to 14 teams.

BMW-Sauber's new owner Qadbak needs the rule change, which can only be effected by unanimous team consent, in order to secure a guaranteed place on next year's grid.

Williams technical director Sam Michael is quoted as defending the decision to block the 14th team on the basis that it is likely that not all four of the confirmed new teams will actually make it to the Bahrain 2010 grid.

"Therefore the question (of a 14th team) will not arise at all," Michael said.

The German report named USF1 as perhaps the most likely of the four new teams to fail to debut in 2010.

Auto Motor und Sport said the team is yet to install any manufacturing equipment at its Charlotte base, and recently called off a technical meeting with engine supplier Cosworth.

It is also reported that the FIA intends to keep a close eye on the progress of the outfit, whose figurehead is the British journalist Peter Windsor.

Another rumour espoused by the magazine is that Ron Dennis is planning to attend November's Abu Dhabi
finale. Fascinatingly, the race will be the first event since 1993 in the wake of his nemesis Max Mosley's 16 year reign as FIA president.

[woody2goody]

Shouldn't they just use some common sense here?

If all 14 teams make it, have a 28 car grid. If one of them doesn't, have a 26 car grid.

It doesn't make any sense to anybody for Williams or anyone else to be blocking grid spots. I can see this as a petty go at FOTA to be honest.

[maximilian]

I tended to agree with many of Williams' decision/blockings so far this year, but I don't agree with this one. Here it's not just a matter of sports, but there are hundreds of people's livelihoods on the line, and it seems unnecessary to wait for some one else to drop out before giving a perfectly viable team the nod to proceed and participate.

I still reiterate that anyone who is able to put together a funded team and build a car SHOULD be given a slot on the grid, there is really no great reason NOT to do this...

[UltimateDanGTR]

i like williams, but this is pathetic. williams are just having a paddy, and it makes no sense. there is nothing wrong with 14 teams, so why question it? stupid decision. decisions like this one should be based on majority, not unanamousability. if its not unanamous, like in this case, the minority have their own way! how fairs that?

[GridGirl]

With 28 cars on the grid there is postential for 20 cars to finish without scoring any points. You do have to question why teams would want to continue in F1 when the chances of scoring are going to become even fewer and far between for the majority of teams.

[Sonic]

I echo the general feel of the current replies; as an F1 fan I have agreed with Franks position most of the time - generally because what is good for Williams is good for F1.

But this is a case where what is good for Sir franks boys is very very weong for F1. Sort it out lads or you'll really turn into the grumpy old men from another thread here at MSF.

[jens]

To be frank (non-pun intended :p :) , I must admit I'm really starting to lose the plot, why is Williams opposing everything that is possible to oppose. Some strange politics must be going on behind the scenes: Williams is rebelling a lot for some reason against something - haven't got a clue, what it could possibly be.

And if the information at James Allen's blog is anything to go by, then Williams is now most likely to use Cosworth engines in 2010. :o So Williams has somehow fallen out with Renault and maybe other car manufacturers and are now trying to get a revenge? And BMW, whose Sauber is currently left out of that "Top13", fell out with Williams back in 2005...

[UltimateDanGTR]

With 28 cars on the grid there is postential for 20 cars to finish without scoring any points. You do have to question why teams would want to continue in F1 when the chances of scoring are going to become even fewer and far between for the majority of teams.

for years with 26 car grids and 6 points scorers this was exactly the same scenario, so no change, although i for one would like to see the points system extended.

[GridGirl]

True, but those were times before F1 turned into the huge commerical show that it is now. Big commercial sponsors will be looking for sucess or tv air time. With lots of cars, fewer if any points and less tv time F1 doesn't really seem that much of a good investment IMHO. I can see why Williams see that their share of the cake will get smaller and smaller with more teams.

[woody2goody]

With 28 cars on the grid there is postential for 20 cars to finish without scoring any points. You do have to question why teams would want to continue in F1 when the chances of scoring are going to become even fewer and far between for the majority of teams.

Yes, but it will just make them work even harder to get to the front. I know what you're saying, that four quick cars could hog all the points, but it's always been like that, more so when points when down to 6th.

I'd be up for points down to 10th or maybe even 15th with a 28 car grid, however that would just mess with the historical points totals to a point where they don't matter at all. It's bad enough in that respect now with 8 points scorers tbh.

[UltimateDanGTR]

True, but those were times before F1 turned into the huge commerical show that it is now. Big commercial sponsors will be looking for sucess or tv air time. With lots of cars, fewer if any points and less tv time F1 doesn't really seem that much of a good investment IMHO. I can see why Williams see that their share of the cake will get smaller and smaller with more teams.

very fair point. I've lost this one havn't I! :D

[maximilian]

True, but those were times before F1 turned into the huge commerical show that it is now. Big commercial sponsors will be looking for sucess or tv air time. With lots of cars, fewer if any points and less tv time F1 doesn't really seem that much of a good investment IMHO. I can see why Williams see that their share of the cake will get smaller and smaller with more teams.
I would argue that more cars means MORE opportunity for exposure, not less! The more cars are racing, the more cars you'll see on TV, simple... doesn't seem to bother the NASCAR sponsors that there are 43 cars in the field, and they have about the best sponsor interest anywhere.

Even if you're a backmarker, sometimes you get more sponsor exposure on TV while being lapped than a mid-running team might get :D

[maximilian]

With 28 cars on the grid there is postential for 20 cars to finish without scoring any points. You do have to question why teams would want to continue in F1 when the chances of scoring are going to become even fewer and far between for the majority of teams.
Not to pick on you, GridGirl, but I'd leave the worrying about whether they wanna race or not up to the TEAMS ;) To me, it's not an argument saying "poor teams may never get a point", and therefore should be kept from racing at all? Hmmm... no.... let them compete, let them improve, and let us watch! :) There is obviously tremendous interest by teams who want to compete... some will make it, some will fizzle out, but they should ALL get a shot at it... if they can build it, let them come!

[GridGirl]

The prospect of 28 cars going round in circles at the Hungaroring..... Can't wait already. I'm with Williams all the way. ;)

[truefan72]

The prospect of 28 cars going round in circles at the Hungaroring..... Can't wait already. I'm with Williams all the way. ;)

30 cars can go around the hungaroring no problem.just means more action and more cars for fans to see. I guess you see that as a problem.

[Hawkmoon]

Yet another instance of Williams opposing a decision. It remains to be seen whether other teams follow Williams' stance but once again Williams appear to be at odds with the other teams.

For me this adds to the feeling I have that Williams are struggling to remain relevant in F1 and are using the need for unanimity amoungst F1 teams to try and arrest their decline.

The response from Sam Michael is illogical. If all the new teams are unlikely to make it to the starting grid then allowing a 14th team makes sense as, by Michael's logic, they'll only be the 12th or 13th team anyway.

By blocking a 14th team Williams seem to be hoping that there will only be 11 or 12 teams next year, thereby lessening the competiton both on the track an off it. Are Williams really that desperate that they don't want extra competion?

[GridGirl]

30 cars can go around the hungaroring no problem.just means more action and more cars for fans to see. I guess you see that as a problem.

I'm all for larger grids, decent cars, overtaking and actual racing. Large grids on tracks that see processional races will not make those races any less boring. I'd rather the teams argue about ways to improve the racing in F1 rather than the number of cars on the grid.

I would love to see some stats on tv air time that each car has has this year.

[ratonmacias]

ok i will type slowly so that you get it.

1)the money pie is now divided in 10 slices they made a bigger to pie to get 13 slices.

2)uncle bernie says its ok to invite the stupid team that was already in but is currently out because flanders didnt sign the concorde agreement. but there isnt going to be a bigger pie just smaller slices.

3)hungry frank doesnt want to share his part of the pie because he really needs it.

see its easy.

and for the record i fully support williams because these should be played by the rules. if bmw woul have been more careful in their actions their team would still be in. so dont blame williams for the krauts stupidity.

[ioan]

Williams just can't exceed their state of mind as grumpy bad losers.
Never liked them and never will.

[ioan]

ok i will type slowly so that you get it.

1)the money pie is now divided in 10 slices they made a bigger to pie to get 13 slices.

I'm fairly sure that any new team is not entitled for money prize for the first season.

[V12]

Very disappointed with Williams, wouldn't expect this from them. If we'd had something similar to this stupid rule in 1969, or 1977 come to think of it, would they even exist right now?


Securing their future in F1 shouldn't be laughed at

I for one don't find this funny. I just find it very disappointing. F1 has always been survival of the fittest (racing team), not survival of the commercial entity that is fortunate enough to have an entry "slot". Williams grew up in and thrived in this environment.

It would be a sad day for F1 if Williams were to slip further backwards and disappear, but if they do then so be it. Just like with Cooper, Brabham, Tyrrell, the original Lotus.

I personally find that a moot point, since I think a lot of people, perhaps including people within the organisation by the sounds of things, underestimate their ability in adversity. In 2006 after BMW left them people had Williams as down and out and on the slippery slope, but 2007, and this season so far have been good solid respectable seasons from them. Fair enough Patrick and Frank aren't getting any younger, but I honestly don't think whether Williams survive in the long run or not will hinge on an extra couple of cars on the grid.

[Bezza]

With 28 cars on the grid there is postential for 20 cars to finish without scoring any points. You do have to question why teams would want to continue in F1 when the chances of scoring are going to become even fewer and far between for the majority of teams.

I don't think that is an issue personally. In the late 80's and 90's we regularly saw 26-car grids and then there was only points down to 6th place. Now the give them down to 8th - and I hope they don't stretch it any further by the way - but F1 is a tough sport and the elite rise to the top. It gives the new teams something to focus on, to try and beat the top teams. We have seen what Force India have done this season, and Toro Rosso in 2008, so it can be done.

The more cars the better. I personally would stop at 26 anyway, with 28 battling to qualify, and the bottom two not racing. Like the old days :s mokin:

[maximilian]

30 cars can go around the hungaroring no problem.just means more action and more cars for fans to see. I guess you see that as a problem.
Yes, the problem isn't the 28 cars, but the dismal Hungaroring! :p :

[Sonic]

It would be a sad day for F1 if Williams were to slip further backwards and disappear, but if they do then so be it. Just like with Cooper, Brabham, Tyrrell, the original Lotus.

Much as I am a Williams fan you are spot on V12. Racing is all about beating your rivals - whether that be 11, 12 or 13 other teams. I would be very sad if the Williams name faded into history but if that's their lot - tough.

However it seems they are backing down over KERS. Are they just taking a leaf out of mad max's book? Taking an initially crazy position and negotiate that silly demand away in return for something they want.

[Cooper_S]

krauts

Gee, a well reasoned argument rendered worthless by letting you nasty side shine through... :(

well done you :blackeye:

Oh and on the BMW not signing thing... I thought that they had no team with which to sigh up with, had they signed as BMW Sauber they would have been committed to 3 years which rather clashes with their plan to withdraw...

<BACK ON TOPIC>

Williams as we know are nothing outside of F1, (not strictly true as designing the 1999 LeMans winner was good) an so they need to think differently to the other teams... I am not concerned that they are always the odd one out, bur rather that what goes around often comes around... and when the time comes for them to need something they may find other teams less than accommodating.

[ratonmacias]

Gee, a well reasoned argument rendered worthless by letting you nasty side shine through... :(

well done you :blackeye:

Oh and on the BMW not signing thing... I thought that they had no team with which to sigh up with, had they signed as BMW Sauber they would have been committed to 3 years which rather clashes with their plan to withdraw...

<BACK ON TOPIC>

Williams as we know are nothing outside of F1, (not strictly true as designing the 1999 LeMans winner was good) an so they need to think differently to the other teams... I am not concerned that they are always the odd one out, bur rather that what goes around often comes around... and when the time comes for them to need something they may find other teams less than accommodating.

sorry i didnt think it was that nasty

english is my second language and sometimes some words are used without fully comprenhending them i apoligize if i offended anyone.

[truefan72]

Very disappointed with Williams, wouldn't expect this from them. If we'd had something similar to this stupid rule in 1969, or 1977 come to think of it, would they even exist right now?



I for one don't find this funny. I just find it very disappointing. F1 has always been survival of the fittest (racing team), not survival of the commercial entity that is fortunate enough to have an entry "slot". Williams grew up in and thrived in this environment.

It would be a sad day for F1 if Williams were to slip further backwards and disappear, but if they do then so be it. Just like with Cooper, Brabham, Tyrrell, the original Lotus.

I personally find that a moot point, since I think a lot of people, perhaps including people within the organisation by the sounds of things, underestimate their ability in adversity. In 2006 after BMW left them people had Williams as down and out and on the slippery slope, but 2007, and this season so far have been good solid respectable seasons from them. Fair enough Patrick and Frank aren't getting any younger, but I honestly don't think whether Williams survive in the long run or not will hinge on an extra couple of cars on the grid.

well said

How quickly they forget. In the late 80's and 90's they were a power team that dictated terms to others and had cars with parts on them that blew the competition away. Now they are acting like poor minnows begging for some crumbs on the table. Williams continues to prove that their management and business philosophy is a nasty one and they think only for themselves at all times. They have no qualms flipping positions as long as it suits their needs.
The latest being the nixing of the solid toyota engines for the useless cosworths,. This decision has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with politics and trying to court favors form the FIA. What a lousy organization. And I'm sorry to say, but that attitude comes from the very top down.

[ratonmacias]

the problem with the toyota engine is that comes attached to kazuki nakajima who has been the worst driver on the track compared to his teammate and the car he drives.

[Garry Walker]

Good move.
We dont need to many grid-fillers.

Quality over quantity.

[jens]

Good move.
We dont need to many grid-fillers.

Quality over quantity.

:?: Considering BMW-Sauber is a current team and has a good development platform, they have potential to be at least a decent midfielder next year unlike complete newcomers.

[ioan]

:?: Considering BMW-Sauber is a current team and has a good development platform, they have potential to be at least a decent midfielder next year unlike complete newcomers.

Exactly.

[Garry Walker]

:?: Considering BMW-Sauber is a current team and has a good development platform, they have potential to be at least a decent midfielder next year unlike complete newcomers.

There are suspicions about the owners of the new BMW team.

[ArrowsFA1]

There are suspicions about the owners of the new BMW team.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79297

[I am evil Homer]

The issue of Qadbak is understood to have been discussed in Sunday morning's FOTA meeting in Suzuka, with Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali saying that the teams' body had to believe that BMW's due diligence on the investors was good enough to prove they were legitimate.

"If BMW check with the due diligence this financial company, we have to respect what they did," said Domenicali.


That rings massive alarm bells for me - BMW need to sell, so I doubt their due diligence was quite as stringent as it should/could be. There needs to be a independent third party doing this not teams taking another teams word.

Does anyone know if the FIA even has a "fit and proper persons" test for owners/investors, as that is what the English FA ahd and it found substantial problems with the Qadbank 'funding'

[Cooper_S]

of course not... half of the team owners would fail if they did.

[ioan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79297

An article with a title based on Martin Withmarsh being worried by BMW Sauber's future! :laugh:

[Placid]

Check out the new http://www.usgpe.com wallpaper.

They will be in the grid.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Check out the new www.usgpe.com (http://www.usgpe.com) wallpaper.

They will be in the grid.

in theory.......

[gloomyDAY]

Williams acting like a bunch of brats again?
Not really shocked. Wheelchair man should just roll off a cliff.


Check out the new www.usgpe.com (http://www.usgpe.com) wallpaper.

They will be in the grid. :laugh:

This website embodies their whole F1 project, incomplete.

[Easy Drifter]

USGPE
Does anyone on here KNOW where they are at?
I think I have seen 3 different supposed web sites but no info.
This was a team when announced said they would be far more open than any other.
I do understand they do have a shop/factory.
I have heard/read it is an empty shell.
I have heard/read it is fully equipped, but with what I have no idea.
I have heard/read they are sub contracting the manufacturer of all parts.
Have they hired any staff/fabricators/mechanics?
Do they have a European base?
Do they have any transporters?
We do know they have not announced any drivers.

What do we really know?

[christophulus]

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/10/07/usf1-interview-with-ken-anderson-and-pictures/

Seems to state that USF1 are building the car as we speak and will be ready to run it in January. Plus there's some pictures which seem to show activity at the factory, so it looks like they're on course.

[Easy Drifter]

Gad. I didn't know this forum and I were so powerful.
I ask the questions and within a short time frame the team replies!!!!!! :cool: :D
Yeah right! :p

[CNR]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6274422/End-of-sponsorship-will-hurt-Williams-F1-team.html


The Williams Formula One team was saved from running into loss last year by an injection of cash from F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone.
Mr Ecclestone advanced the team a signing bonus of £14.5m, on committing to stay in the sport until 2012. Without it Williams would have gone into the red.
The Oxfordshire-based team’s accounts for the year-ending November 30, 2008 show its finances are far from pole position.

now i see why they had to brakeaway from fota



But while sponsorship proved lucrative, it is short-term. RBS signed a $60m (£37m) three-year deal with Williams last year but decided, after its near collapse in 2008, that it would not renew after 2010.
Williams has also lost the $30m sponsorship of Baugur, the failed Icelandic retail group

[Steve2009]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6274422/End-of-sponsorship-will-hurt-Williams-F1-team.html


now i see why they had to brakeaway from fota

More evidence IMO

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/f1/story/0,25552,3213_5618772,00.html

We - I can speak for Ferrari but I speak also for FOTA - would love to have the Sauber team because of the heritage, because of the structure and because we know they can deliver a great thing," Domenicali said.

Ah!!! here is the rub! It's a vested interest:


"And as you know we are discussing a possible supply of engines, so also for ourselves we need to know very soon.

[Malbec]

That rings massive alarm bells for me - BMW need to sell, so I doubt their due diligence was quite as stringent as it should/could be. There needs to be a independent third party doing this not teams taking another teams word.

Does anyone know if the FIA even has a "fit and proper persons" test for owners/investors, as that is what the English FA ahd and it found substantial problems with the Qadbank 'funding'


BMW's handling of their F1 team sale has been absolutely crazy.

Honda flushed out all potential F1 team buyers over the winter. Not a single credible buyer emerged so they had to sell the team for £1 to the management and fund them through 2009.

BMW were luckier, Petronas were happy to take over the team with Peter Sauber but BMW decided they wanted a substantial sum of cash for the team. Not surprisingly the deal fell through.

Then they reduced the team's value further by refusing to sign up to the Concorde agreement, denying their team a guaranteed entry for 2010.

No wonder then that they can only find some dodgy Middle Eastern investment fund to take over, Peter Sauber must be gutted. If the team survives it will be despite BMW's efforts, not because.

[Saint Devote]

Reading current utterings the only certain entrant is USF1 because they are the only team that has shown premises and purchased equipment.

So perhaps the Sauber people will purchase a place in the 13 from the others?? Read the report on this web site under news.

The idea of di Montezemolo should be considered that three cars be allowed on the grid - but it should not be a given.

Teams should be allowed to decide per race and if there are other teams wanting to enter then the third car should be a reserve.

But the new teams should only be allowed if on an official f1 test track such as Catalunya the car is shown to be capable of a competitive time - like the old percentahe rule.

I know Williams objects but then the good idea that Briatore always tried to get through - that a simple majority at FOTA ought to be enough and that a 100% requirement for agreement prevents movement. I agree.

It would great to see a third Ferrari at Monza or a thrid Renault at Monaco - which these days substitutes for the Grand Prix of France as well.

And it gives new f1 drivers a chance to learn without the pressure of being in the second car.

[Robinho]

heres a thought...

Williams currently blcoking BMW Saubers Re-entry to the grid for next year, but have no engine deal, don't want to pay for the Toyotas anymore, probably don't really want the possibly dodgy Cosworths. i think i saw something about BMW still providing engines to the team, wouln't be a massive stretch to add williams too for a cut price/freebie deal to get them to withdraw opposition to their entry?

Williams BMW (or rebadged Sauber or something) next year? stranger things have happened