The BNP on Question Time

[BeansBeansBeans]

Nick Griffin of the British National Party is to appear on BBC's Question Time on October 22nd. What are your feelings about it?

Personally, I believe he has every right to appear, but I'm hoping he shows himself and his party up for what they really are.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Should make for good TV. Whilst he is a moron, Nick Griffin is a very good public speaker.

[wedge]

Of course they should.

I've seen their newsletter/newspaper and its a good laugh as should the majority on QT.

[Rollo]

Human Rights Act 2000. (European Parliament)
Article 10: Freedom of Expression
(1) Everyone has the right of freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without inference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
(2) The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society...

Anyone in the UK has the right at law to get up and say whatever the heck they wish within the grounds of decency and other law. Politically even if the BNP are a bunch of whackjobs, they still have the freedom to espouse their whackjobbery all they want; just like you have the legal right to ignore it.

There was that case in the High Court with that horrid Alison Redmond-Bate, which even upheld people's right to be offensive under the law. Provided there isn't a direct provocation to violence, then the BNP as far as I'm concerned are totally within their right to say what they want...

... and be judged for, by and on it.

[Lousada]

They are allowed to say it, but should they be given a platform for it? On the one hand this could expose them as shallow and non-constructive. On the other hand it validates the BNP and everything they stand for.

[BTCC Fan#1]

Should make for good TV. Whilst he is a moron, Nick Griffin is a very good public speaker.
Your kidding right? Every interview I've ever heard Griffin give he consistently fails to defend any of his ridiculous beliefs, before launching into a whiny rant about how he's treated unfairly by some media conspiracy..

Let him on Question Time, I personally believe the only way to combat the BNP is to debate them and expose their vile views.

[jim mcglinchey]

The funniest thing on TV last week was Richard " I'm a bit stupid me" Barnbrook of the BNP reading a prepared statment to the London Assembly and trying to sound a bit, shall we say, challenged, because that was his excuse for misleading them.

[BDunnell]

The funniest thing on TV last week was Richard " I'm a bit stupid me" Barnbrook of the BNP reading a prepared statment to the London Assembly and trying to sound a bit, shall we say, challenged, because that was his excuse for misleading them.

Yes, that was brilliant. For those who aren't aware of this wonderful story - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8273879.stm

I think Griffin should be allowed on Question Time, because he is bound to come across extremely badly. Hopefully his fellow panellists other than Jack Straw will be combative rather than bland - Michael Heseltine would be good as a representative of the Tories, for example.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Your kidding right? Every interview I've ever heard Griffin give he consistently fails to defend any of his ridiculous beliefs, before launching into a whiny rant about how he's treated unfairly by some media conspiracy..

Let him on Question Time, I personally believe the only way to combat the BNP is to debate them and expose their vile views.

He may not answer the questions he is asked but he always maintains his cool

[J4MIE]

He may not answer the questions he is asked but he always maintains his cool

And that's what everyone looks for in a politician :s

[steve_spackman]

I can see why people would be afriad to have the BNP in #10

A great example of the BNP is the Republican party, which i feel should change its name to the ANP...

A fringe party, for people who are racist, fearful or just plain stupid.

[driveace]

He has a rite to appear on the show as an elected person.Its up to the general public to judge him on how he performs.I have been to the show personally 3 times ,.And paid to go once to partake with tony Blair on

[BDunnell]

I have been to the show personally 3 times ,.And paid to go once to partake with tony Blair on

I went once. Boring panel that week, though. It's always much better when there's a bit more confrontation. Ian Hislop is always an excellent guest.

[Dave B]

The BNP on Question Time is both acceptable and pointless.

Acceptable because they're a democratically elected party, no matter how repugnant their views, and this will at least put a temporary stop to their constant and unjustified whinging that the media ignores them or only portrays them in a negative light.

It's also pointless, as the questions will be pre-vetted, the answers rehearsed a hundred times, and worse of all the government are putting up Jack Straw - a man who couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag. We'll learn nothing from this other than (shock horror) the BNP are racists with no other real policies.

The BBC will be afraid of giving them too tough a time for fear of looking biased. Although I despise the man for many many things, the best person to have on the panel would be George Galloway. An unpleasant person in many respects, but at least represents an ethnically diverse area and isn't backwards in coming forward in a debate. He'd tear Griffin apart.

Failing that the non-politician on the panel should be Clive James. He's impressed on several occasions with his calm and measured approach, and I've found myself agreeing with almost every single word he's said.

Or Jarvis "I don't really know what's going on" Cocker, just for comedy :s

[wedge]

George Galloway? dear God no.

Nick Griffin should be forced to sit next to Peter Tatchell

[slinkster]

I don't have a problem with it either. I think and hope he'll buckle. However, the people that they really need to convince not to vote for these idiots aren't going to be tuning into a show like Question Time. That will be a tougher challenge.

[Dave B]

I don't have a problem with it either. I think and hope he'll buckle. However, the people that they really need to convince not to vote for these idiots aren't going to be tuning into a show like Question Time. That will be a tougher challenge.
Quite. I suspect that the typical BNP voter has fairly entrenched views which won't be countered by rational debate.

[F1boat]

I can see why people would be afriad to have the BNP in #10

A great example of the BNP is the Republican party, which i feel should change its name to the ANP...

A fringe party, for people who are racist, fearful or just plain stupid.

Thumbs up!

[woody2goody]

I just hope they can put up the most rabid, clever and argumentative panellists who will destroy that disgusting piece of s*** Griffin.

[Wasted Talent]

The BNP attracted a significant proportion of the vote, have 2 MEPs, and so have a legitimate place on Question Time.......end of.

WT

[BeansBeansBeans]

I just hope they can put up the most rabid, clever and argumentative panellists who will destroy that disgusting piece of s*** Griffin.

Confirmed so far are Jack Straw and Bonnie Greer. I imagine that Griffin will be put on the spot at some point and asked whether Greer should be sent home, as per the BNP's repatriation policy.

[driveace]

Well after all the Hoo Ha its going ahead.Demonstrations today outside the recording studios to try to stop it. And is Peter Hain afraid of them?
What will the viewing figures be ?
Maybe more than normal OR will people switch over to watch something else ?

[wedge]

A bit messy but understandable given the raging emotions

Apart from holding the government into account of immigration policies, BNP don't offer anything else to mainstream politics other than a good laugh

[Dave B]

I'll cheat and cut and paste what I wrote on Facebook :p

They should have Griffin back every week, he's comedy gold. What a wasted opportunity though: 80% of the programme was about race. Yes, we get it, the BNP are racist scumbags. That's not going to change; and as unpalatable as it might be, it's a valid viewpoint. Makes me sick just typing that, but there you go.

No, I wanted to see them probed about the economy, education, health, the environment (all the climate change denial BS has disappeared from their website - thank goodness for Google cache!), defence, Europe... everything.

They claim to want to be a respectable mainstream party, their policies should be put under the microscope for everybody to see. Oh wait, they've only got one policy: we don't really like the darkies.

Odious scum, but I'm glad the BBC had the guts to put Griffin on air so we could all see him for the raving moron he truly is.

[Bezza]

The BNP were shown up big time, and Griffin squirmed his way through - it was cringeworthy at times. It should preclude them from being on again.

However, the disappointment for me was Jack Straw. Constantly when answering questions he referred to his notes - clearly he had pre-planned questions and answers - Labour really are a bunch of buffoons. THe conservative woman (can't remember her name) was very impressive and, her being a Muslim, represented the MAJORITY of muslims in this country - which again should put an end to the BNP.

[Dave B]

THe conservative woman (can't remember her name) was very impressive and, her being a Muslim, represented the MAJORITY of muslims in this country - which again should put an end to the BNP.
You mean the homophobic (except when she's on TV, then she's all nicey nicey) Baroness Sayeeda Warsi.

[Mark]

For someone who is a leader of a political party he really should be a bit more clued up really. Suggesting Winston Churchill would be a BNP member. You can tell he's not exactly a student of history and exactly what Winston Churchill was fighting against during the war years.

Now if he wants a prominent figure of the 1940's who was mostly likely to be a member of a nationalist party then there are no shortage of choices, but they did mostly reside in Germany and holiday in Austria..

[Eki]

They talked about BNP on BBC World and said the BNP wants only "indigenous British" to live in Britain. What is an "indigenous British" and in what cave do they think they'll find one? Will mongrel Anglo-Saxons and Celts do, or are they going to try and dig something up from Stonehenge?

[Dave B]

They talked about BNP on BBC World and said the BNP wants only "indigenous British" to live in Britain. What is an "indigenous British" and in what cave do they think they'll find one? Will mongrel Anglo-Saxons and Celts do, or are they going to try and dig something up from Stonehenge?
Someone who can trace their lineage back to the end of the last Ice Age, apparently. That's around 17,000 years. Given that I've got an Irish great-great-grandfather and allegedly some French ancestors even further back, I guess I'll be off to Heathrow for my BNP-sponsored flight "home", wherever that might be :s

[Mark]

Someone who can trace their lineage back to the end of the last Ice Age, apparently. That's around 17,000 years. Given that I've got an Irish great-great-grandfather and allegedly some French ancestors even further back, I guess I'll be off to Heathrow for my BNP-sponsored flight "home", wherever that might be :s

The only indiginous population are those who can say their ancestors were here when the english channel finally got flooded and we were cut off from continental Europe, even then that took decades to go from a river to a swap to a sea.

It's thought that the Celts actually came from central Europe, around Austria-ish, the Romans came from... you know where, and bringing a lot of people with them. The Angles came from Germany, the Vikings came from Norway and Denmark, the Scots came from Ireland, and the Normans came from France.

Given all that I think I'm not on too shaky a ground to say that we don't have *any* indiginous population.

Having said that, the biggest population influx the UK has ever seen, bigger than the Vikings, bigger than the Norman conquest, has been immigration from Poland since 2004. However the big difference is that they weren't quite so interested in killing us all, burning our villages and taking our lands, which had been the traditional approach.

[Dave B]

Is it possible for DNA testing to accurately show a person's ethnic background; and if so would Griffin be willing to take such a test and, should he prove to be anything other than 100% "indiginous", will he stand by his own policies and bugger off?

[Dave B]

Griffin's now hijacking and mis-using the term "ethnic cleansing" for his own pathetic means, bleating about how he didn't get a fair hearing from the capital's nasty coloured folk:


"That audience was taken from a city that is no longer British ... That was not my country any more. Why not come down and do it in Thurrock, do it in Stoke, do it in Burnley?

"Do it somewhere where there are still significant numbers of English and British people [living], and they haven't been ethnically cleansed from their own country."

He added: "There is not much support for me there [in London], because the place is dominated by ethnic minorities. There is an ethnic minority that supports me: the English. But there's not many of them left."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/23/bnp-nick-griffin-question-time

Yuk. Thank goodness for Boris (from the same article):


"Nick Griffin is right to say London is not his city. London is a welcoming, tolerant, cosmopolitan capital which thrives on its diversity. The secret of its long-term success is its ability to attract the best from wherever they are and allow them to be themselves – unleashing their imagination, creativity and enterprise.

"The BNP has no place here and I again urge Londoners to reject their narrow, extremist and offensive views at every opportunity."

[Eki]

Is it possible for DNA testing to accurately show a person's ethnic background;
I don't know about accuracy, but this could give some indication:

http://dnatribes.com/

[LiamM]

I don't know about accuracy, but this could give some indication:

http://dnatribes.com/

You'd need something to match it against, so Dave, keep looking for that pure 100% British person then we'll be able to hit the ground running.

[christophulus]

Someone who can trace their lineage back to the end of the last Ice Age, apparently. That's around 17,000 years. Given that I've got an Irish great-great-grandfather and allegedly some French ancestors even further back, I guess I'll be off to Heathrow for my BNP-sponsored flight "home", wherever that might be :s

Well my mother's parents are Irish so I guess I'll be cutting my arm off and posting that "back home". :rolleyes:

I was pretty disappointed with Question Time last night, it was very much the anti-BNP show, not a current affairs/politics debate as it should have been. Nonetheless, I applaud the BBC for sticking by their policy and allowing him on in the face of anti-fascist protests. If the BBC are allowed to choose who to put on QT and who not to then I'd worry.

Anyway, quite why people are so afraid of Griffin is beyond me. Last night the other panelists and audience continually shouted him down whenever he tried to make a point. The best tactic would be to let him answer and hang himself! Holocaust denials? Homophobic views?

I hope the "success" of the BNP acts as a massive kick up the backside for the mainstream parties. If they don't get in touch with the British public and actually start to address the problems, then Griffin and his ilk will get in at the general election.

[wedge]

Griffin's now hijacking and mis-using the term "ethnic cleansing" for his own pathetic means, bleating about how he didn't get a fair hearing from the capital's nasty coloured folk:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/23/bnp-nick-griffin-question-time

Yuk. Thank goodness for Boris (from the same article):

An absolute tool, Great Leader failled to acknowledge his own council representatives in East London.

[Captain VXR]

Nick Griffin said the BBC is just a bunch of ultra lefties...like say, Mr Clarkson for example?

[Mark in Oshawa]

They talked about BNP on BBC World and said the BNP wants only "indigenous British" to live in Britain. What is an "indigenous British" and in what cave do they think they'll find one? Will mongrel Anglo-Saxons and Celts do, or are they going to try and dig something up from Stonehenge?

Or the Normans....they only have their DNA in about half the people of England...including members of the BNP. Sounds like the racial purity crap the Nazi's used to spout.

The BNP are buffoons, but since some dopes somewhere managed to elect these idiots to something, give em air time. With brains like this, they will be exposed...

[Malbec]

Nick Griffin said the BBC is just a bunch of ultra lefties...like say, Mr Clarkson for example?

Didn't he include the Sun and the Daily Mail in that ultra-left wing media conspiracy against him?

While he might gain a few more fringe votes from appearing on question time I thought it also made clear that he's never going to break into the mainstream. There's something disturbing about him as well, the way he starts shaking even when he's talking about mundane issues or the way his eyes look in slightly different directions when he's talking.

The other thing to remember is that he's the leader of the BNP because he's by far the most articulate, logical telegenic guy they have. The rest of them must be troglodytes.

On the other hand the mainstream parties barely touched on why the BNP has become popular, its not so much about race and immigration as about poor white working class people feeling totally disenfranchised by society and politics. Uneducated and unable to get work, can't see a future, no wonder many turn to them. None of the mainstream guys really tried to address that issue so the BNP can rest assured there'll be a vacuum for them to operate in for some time yet.

[Kneeslider]

The BNP exists because of the faliure of the mainstream political parties to adequately represent the people.

The issues which cause people to be pushed into the grubby clutches of Nasty Nick and his brethren have been consistently ignored, because they are difficult to properly deal with. Jack Straw and others were right to point out and ridicule Griffin's holocaust denial, but at the same time, they didn't adequately engage with the working class people who would have formerly been Labour supporters, who now might be leaning towards the BNP. But then I guess that it's no surprise that gesture politics and opponent bashing take precedence over the provision of solutions to social problems...

I personally know a number of people who work in the food industry in Eastern England, and who have seen their wages plummet over the last 5 or so years, because of mass immigration. I would not be one to blame them for feeling dissatisfied with a government who have failed comprehensively to look after the interest of those who in days gone by would have been its most ardent supporters.

What about all those people you know in the pub, or at work who pepper their speech with enough clues to let you know that they would be voting BNP given the chance. I bet most English people here know a few of those?

Changing the attitudes of people is always hard. I guess the knack is to be able to do it without it appearing to be propoganda.

I guess my real fear is to imagine that someone with skills of oratory and charisma were to be the leader of the BNP, that would be extremely dangerous. Nick Griffin will never be a leader of men, or women for that matter, to be reconed with, he just hasn't got the talent.

[wedge]

I completely agree with you Kneeslider.

Lynch-mob witch hunt against the BNP doesn't really solve things.

Never will unless we get greater debate with immigration issues instead playing political correctness.

All it takes is an issue for the BNP to jump on the bandwagon and thus spread further paranoia and fear to those disillusioned.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Extreme political movements sprout up in democracies where the mainstream parties are not listening. Hearing and reading politicians from the UK talking about immigration, employment and the lack there of, and the general level of discourse I read on this forum tells me that Britain has a vacuum that the BNP is filling. The poor, native Brits are fighting to hang on and the UK has a high level of first wave immigrants driving down the labour rate. Neither Labour nor the Tories are seeming to listen to it. Sounds like a perfect breeding ground for these BNP idiots.

It is the same sort of elitist naivety that Americans are facing in the GOP and DNC. One party or movement hasn't filled the gap in the US, but a lot of right-wing cranks are getting agitated by Obama's full steam ahead to a Hugo Chavez kind of America and they don't like it. Still, to see the BNP actually getting traction with the electorate in the UK is troubling, because I don't see the gov't of the UK being as out of touch with what is happening on the ground in the way I see Obama's administration being out of touch with middle America. Weird.....

[Malbec]

Never will unless we get greater debate with immigration issues instead playing political correctness.

All it takes is an issue for the BNP to jump on the bandwagon and thus spread further paranoia and fear to those disillusioned.

The problem is that none of the mainstream parties are willing to fight and explain the benefits of immigration and how limiting migration is simply going to hurt the economy, lower the tax base and hurt Britain. It is easier for all to go foreigner bashing, albeit in a modern, middle-class politically correct way.

It is an indication of how far to the right New Labour has gone that it has been willing to go on the anti-immigration bandwagon rather than do anything to stop it, and few politicians have done more than Jack Straw in that regard. He was indeed an inspired choice to go face to face with the consequences of going anti-immigration by 'debating' with Nick Griffin.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I suspect tho Dylan that the benefits of immigration are mitigated by the fact that the government has just swung the doors open without much screening nor thought to the effect on society. North American society is one created by immigrants, so we are more aware and open to them BUT even we have had our share of friction when the doors are open too far in times of economic downturn.

Governments would do well to be moderate in their spending, moderate in who they let in and moderate in their outlook. Instead we spend too much, let too many in and seem oblivious to bad times until they are upon us. Too much petty politics leads to anti-immigrant sentiment and of course the reason people are let into the country inthe first place to generate income, taxes and GDP for the welfare state, which in most western nations isn't replacing itself and is growing older.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I saw Griffin on Question Time and the sad truth is that there are thousands of people in this country who agree with his deranged racist, homophobic, EU-phobic views. And these people blame immigration for all these 'issues'.

[Malbec]

I suspect tho Dylan that the benefits of immigration are mitigated by the fact that the government has just swung the doors open without much screening nor thought to the effect on society. North American society is one created by immigrants, so we are more aware and open to them BUT even we have had our share of friction when the doors are open too far in times of economic downturn.

The doors were never swung open, it is not easy to enter the UK and stay despite perceptions to the contrary except for EU citizens.

The government and other mainstream parties have all used an anti-immigration stance so they should be prepared for the BNP to take the argument to its logical conclusion. No party in the UK has ever talked up the benefits of immigration, and when studies such as the one released earlier this week that showed that even with optimistic (ie pre-credit crunch) rates of immigration half the population growth over the few decades would be due to organic growth of the current population, the parties still choose to tread the anti-immigration line.

I have little pity for New Labour who chose not to reverse the Conservative anti-immigrant line but merely found new angles to play with it, who then find themselves losing to the BNP.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well the BNP has found a niche I guess. The UK is a very small island with a lot more people on it than one would expect. I do think immigration policy should be a very carefully monitored and people need to understand the need for immigrants. That said, if government wasn't forever growing and spending more, they wouldn't so eagerly need more people to come in and pay taxes to it. At some point, there has to be some rationality. The UK cannot sustain a positive population growth forever.....

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Well the BNP has found a niche I guess. The UK is a very small island with a lot more people on it than one would expect. I do think immigration policy should be a very carefully monitored and people need to understand the need for immigrants. That said, if government wasn't forever growing and spending more, they wouldn't so eagerly need more people to come in and pay taxes to it. At some point, there has to be some rationality. The UK cannot sustain a positive population growth forever.....

Economically the biggest problem for the UK isn't the immigrants. They are generally of a working age and contribute to the economy. Economically the problem is the retired. And we have the 'baby boomers' beginning to enter the retirement age. Perhaps we should send them over to Canada. :p

[Dave B]

The doors were never swung open, it is not easy to enter the UK and stay despite perceptions to the contrary except for EU citizens.
But perceptions trump facts for many people. The "they come over here and jump the queue for housing and jobs" myth has been repeatedly debunked, but it's still a popular view and one which the BNP are excellent at exploiting.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Economically the biggest problem for the UK isn't the immigrants. They are generally of a working age and contribute to the economy. Economically the problem is the retired. And we have the 'baby boomers' beginning to enter the retirement age. Perhaps we should send them over to Canada. :p

We have plenty of our own. The weekly news magazine "Macleans" this week has an article that by 2030 two people will be working for every retiree. Talk about unsustainable!

It is all interrelated in my opinion to the reality that governments, whether by accident or by good intentions have so many entitlements that are threatened by an aging population that they are relying on a steady inflow of immigrants to counteract this and grow the population to be able to tax and then pay for all of it. The problem is the government cant stop spending more and promising more to the future generations.

The BNP for sure is not a party I would vote for or support. They are just a bunch of loons BUT they are exploiting the fact that immigration now is from places where the people coming in are identifiable and standing out from the locals. They can exploit the large numbers of Muslims and get a response in light of the 9/11 events and the London bombings. They can go after the large number of eastern Euro's because of the EC's freedom of movement. Immigration may not be any more now than it was 30 years ago, but it seems more visible, and times are tough. Any time a nation is in that situation, the immigrants will bear abuse.

Look to the immigration of the Irish to the US and Canada and the way they were treated. Look how the immigration of the Italians and Polish into North America at the turn of the previous century was handled. Every new group coming in to North America has had to take its share of abuse and discrimination. It isn't right, BUT it is a natural reaction. In the UK, this abuse has just used modern communications to coalese around a few semi-organized loons and get some people elected to the EC parliament. One would hope the people in these areas would be better educated, but alas, I guess not.

You are stuck with em now....but I must note, over here...we are more tolerant probably of immigrants now than we ever have in our history. At least we got something right.