Safety in rallying

[Woodeye]

Again terrible news, this time from Austria. Two spectators killed in an accident.

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/urheilu/uutinen.asp?id=1732249

When somebody will do something about this? It was only 2 weeks since the last fatal accident. Why the hell nothing happens?

[pettersolberg29]

Does it say how/why? (can't read Finnish)

I'm caught in two minds about this (safety) though, even if it sounds cruel. Rallying is dangerous, but I still go. If I were to be hit by a car, I would see it as my fault no matter how it happened. I chose to go, I chose where to stand to watch and the driver didn't aim for me so its not his fault.
No matter how organised the marshals and all are, it will never stop those people who want to get closer to the action or after a jump or wherever they CHOSE to stand. Also, I am among many on here who believe spectating at rallies like Wales Rally GB is becoming ridiculous - you stand so far away from the track at the spectator areas you need binoculars to see the cars. Therefore I go elsewhere so I can get nearer. If I got hit, its my fault.
Likewise, even if you get hit in a spectator area, that person chose to go to the rally and knows that there is always a chance of tragedy.

My point doesn't stop the tragic loss of life as in this instance, but I don't want the excitement of spectating at rallies to disapper...

[N.O.T]

The fact that we see most fatalities in events not organised by the FIA means that safety regulation and education in local rallies is not enough as it seems...to be honest i would expect accidents like these to happen more often in 3rd world countries like mine but i see that they happen all over europe.

Will it stop? no, never, no matter what as long as we have spectators in events but they sure can be limited in accidents that are just caused of bad luck.

what it can be done ? i think the easiest solution is more marshals and most of all more educated marshals....but can local organisers handle the cost of educating them and hire more of them ???

[Woodeye]

Does it say how/why? (can't read Finnish)

No, it just says that there was an accident and 2 people lost their lives.

I'm saying that the attitude should be that these kind of accidents should be impossible. I see that as the only way. None dies in F1 every month!

In the stages the places to follow should be ar enough from the road. And the dangerous places should be banned for good. Enough marshals on the stages, paid by FIA.

[Lousada]

No, it just says that there was an accident and 2 people lost their lives.

I'm saying that the attitude should be that these kind of accidents should be impossible. I see that as the only way. None dies in F1 every month!

In the stages the places to follow should be ar enough from the road. And the dangerous places should be banned for good. Enough marshals on the stages, paid by FIA.

If that's the attitude then rallying should be banned alltogether.
Marshalls paid by FIA? First, the rallies which had accidents lately are not under FIA governance. Second, marshals in most countries are volunteers. Third, it is financially impossible.

[pettersolberg29]

Woodeye - I assume you spectate at rallies, yes? Would you be happy to be 20m or so away from a straight piece of road? I think that its unacceptable to charge for events then make the viewing really bad. Accidents are going to happen, its inevitable, and the only way to stop them is to stop spectators at rallies. I for one do not want this to happen.

[Barreis]

More then 10 years ago I spectated one tarmac rally when golf kit car passed with about 170 km/h (maybe more) beside me.. After that safe zone when spectatin'..

[Mirek]

Guys, it wasn't rally where this accident happened. I know it changes nothing on the tragedy but it was hillclimb race.

One car left the road in high speed, some say it was on straight, so maybe because of some failure. A woman and her doughter were killed, her housband and son were seriously injured. Their life is said to be safe now but the boy stays in artifical coma.

[Woodeye]

Woodeye - I assume you spectate at rallies, yes? Would you be happy to be 20m or so away from a straight piece of road? I think that its unacceptable to charge for events then make the viewing really bad. Accidents are going to happen, its inevitable, and the only way to stop them is to stop spectators at rallies. I for one do not want this to happen.

Yes, I spectate. And I always stay in places where it's nearly impossible to be hit by a car. Accidents will happen for sure, but the accidents shouldn't cause any lost lives. Everyone who has been on stages know where it's possible to be and where not. But on the other hand, in every rally I've seen these "supermen" standing nearly in the middle of the road. And after a jump of course as well. Russian roulette you can be play at home as well.

[Tomi]

Yes, I spectate. And I always stay in places where it's nearly impossible to be hit by a car. Accidents will happen for sure, but the accidents shouldn't cause any lost lives. Everyone who has been on stages know where it's possible to be and where not. But on the other hand, in every rally I've seen these "supermen" standing nearly in the middle of the road. And after a jump of course as well. Russian roulette you can be play at home as well.

exactly, its not difficult to find good spots that are quite safe too.

[Barreis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctdZfrj-8PE&feature=rec-HM-rev-rn
On 5:59 Risto is laughin' lookin' spectator runnin' from the road (while readin')..

[anthonyvop]

With all due respect to the deceased but has there ever been a spectator fatality at a rally event where it wasn't the spectator's fault?

You have cars being driven on their limit at high-speeds on public roads. Common sense dictates not to be so close.

[Tomi]

those close calls i have seen, has usually been when spectators move to better spot after a car has passed and the car coming next is for some reason close behind or when people who try to spectate many stages as possible try to get back to their car after lets say 10 first wrc cars.

[AndyRAC]

I hope I don't sound callous, but:-
'Motorsport is Dangerous - You attend at your own risk'

I sometimes wonder, particularly on Rally GB, if they've gone too far with spectator restrictions - standing so far back you may as well be at home watching on TV. You can't make it 100% safe, unfortunately in this litiguous society, the organisers have to cover their own backs in regards to insurance, safety, etc
I do worry were it will end.

[PuddleJumper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctdZfrj-8PE&feature=rec-HM-rev-rn
On 5:59 Risto is laughin' lookin' spectator runnin' from the road (while readin')..
I couldn't hear any laughing.

And how do you know it was a spectator? The Safari Rally was driven on public roads which were not closed, so it might well have been a member of the public.

[DonJippo]

I couldn't hear any laughing.

Because there was none and like you said it was not a spectator. Interesting though just seconds before you can hear Lasse Lampi giving a warning to Tommi and Risto about person walking on the side of the road.

[Rallyper]

I´m gonna tell you a story from NORF this year:

At Myhinpää stage on sunday we went out to a chosen corner. While walking behind the fences I thought it was ridicoulus walking more than 20 m away from the stage also because there was trees between the fence and the road.

When the stage was cancelled we walked back and what did we see: Conrads C4 had stopped just outside the fence after he rolled out of the road in a speed around 130 km/h!! :eek:

So - I never ever more will accuse the organisers being too careful and precaucious(?) after that happend!!

The big task is to get the public know the dynamic in speed and why they have to stand on certain places only.

[Rallyper]

I´m gonna tell you a story from NORF this year:

At Myhinpää stage on sunday we went out to a chosen corner. While walking behind the fences I thought it was ridicoulus walking more than 20 m away from the stage also because there was trees between the fence and the road.

When the stage was cancelled we walked back and what did we see: Conrads C4 had stopped just outside the fence after he rolled out of the road in a speed around 130 km/h!! :eek:

So - I never ever more will accuse the organisers being too careful and precaucious(?) after that happend!!

The big task is to get the public know the dynamic in speed and why they have to stand on certain places only.

[smokin'joe]

it's called 'Darwinism' for a reason.
stupid people will die and it will stop them breeding even more stupid people.
callous , i know. but the harsh reality of the matter.

what do we propose?? a spectator marshall for every spectator??

i have been told to move to what was deemed a 'safe' place by a over-zealous marshall who wouldn't let me stand where i was, only to have a cars leave the road close-by, but none went near where i was.

i have also advised spectators that the position they were standing wasn't best for viewing or for safety to be told to 'go and get F$%#%$, and they would stand were they bl@@dy well liked', fortunately for them, the only car to leave the road was just past their position, but that was probably more to do with the driver seeing them and avaioding them???

[macksrallye]

I think that if organisers supply spectator points & advertise them enough the majority of spectators can go to these areas & be controlled to some degree by spectator marshals. There will always be those die hard fans that will find a way into the stage & get their "prime" spot but at least from the organisers point of view they have supply a relatively safe place to watch from & if you don't use these areas the onus is back on the spectator.

BUT! If organisers do start using spectator points they have to choose good places to do so, which is tricky. Good viewing with plenty of space for people & parking whilst being safe & keeping the spectator traffic away from competitors on liason is not an easy thing to do.

[BDunnell]

There will always be accidents, some of them fatal. It's a sad fact of life. Those spectating must do so in the acceptance of a certain amount of reasonable risk.

[Woodeye]

There will always be accidents, some of them fatal. It's a sad fact of life. Those spectating must do so in the acceptance of a certain amount of reasonable risk.

In a WAR yes, in a SPORT EVENT, no there shouldn't be fatal accidents at all. And this should be finally acknowledget by FIA as well.

[Barreis]

I couldn't hear any laughing.

And how do you know it was a spectator? The Safari Rally was driven on public roads which were not closed, so it might well have been a member of the public.

Right time is 6:04.. Maybe it wasn't spectator.. But accidents can be avoid if organisation is good..

[Hartusvuori]

Right time is 6:04.. Maybe it wasn't spectator.. But accidents can be avoid if organisation is good..

Still can't hear any laughing. At 6:04 Risto starts reading the next pace note ("pitkä nyppy, vasen laita, satakahdeksankymmentä").

[macksrallye]

There will always be accidents, some of them fatal. It's a sad fact of life. Those spectating must do so in the acceptance of a certain amount of reasonable risk.

I don't believe this is right.

Yes there will always be accidents & there will always be a chance that they will cause fatalities. However we (rally/motorsport people as a collective) should do everything we can (within reason of course) to minimise the chance that a fatality will occur. Nobody wants to see people injured in motorsport let alone killed & if everybody can work together (I know this is a stretch) we will find ways of making it safer for everyone involved.

[smokin'joe]

I think that if organisers supply spectator points & advertise them enough the majority of spectators can go to these areas & be controlled to some degree by spectator marshals. There will always be those die hard fans that will find a way into the stage & get their "prime" spot but at least from the organisers point of view they have supply a relatively safe place to watch from & if you don't use these areas the onus is back on the spectator..got that in one. arrogance and ignorance are no excuses


BUT! If organisers do start using spectator points they have to choose good places to do so, which is tricky. Good viewing with plenty of space for people & parking whilst being safe & keeping the spectator traffic away from competitors on liason is not an easy thing to do. not normally as hard as you think. the lead-in or the inside of an open "T" or "X" intersection is always popular with organisers, with the car-parking well past the run-off area of the closed road, which often put the spectators on the opposite to direction of travel for the touring, preferably at the same location as any mid-point intervention so the spectators arn't anywhere near the start or finish controls.
most stages with closed side-roads allow for this, but 2-4 points per day is often sufficent as it is usually very difficult to get to watch every stage on a rally.


There will always be accidents, some of them fatal. It's a sad fact of life. Those spectating must do so in the acceptance of a certain amount of reasonable risk.

In a WAR yes, in a SPORT EVENT, no there shouldn't be fatal accidents at all. And this should be finally acknowledget by FIA as well.
as an organiser, you cannot wrap everyone up in cotton-wool to protect them.as a rally safety officer/clearance car/marshall, you can advise punters that they are in a dumb place, and that they should move for their safety, but by law, i don't believe you can forcibly move them to a 'safer' area. if there is a large congregation of people in a similar place, one could have the stage cancelled.
every event is given a clearance certificate by the Stewards/ COC and from that point the event must follow the set guidelines and the safety plan. no special stage can start until a clearance certificate is signed by the safety officer after he has been through the stage and is happy that marshalls are in place,roads are properly closed etc. every advertised spectator point must satisfy the stewards/coc and must follow the safety plan. should a car end up crashing into a designated speccy point, then there will be issues for the event planners, up. the safety officer goes through the stage approx. 1 hour before the 'zero' cars, so there is plenty of opportunity for 'jackasses' to stray into unsafe spots.
FIA , in my opinion, do acknowledge there are risks to spectators, and some may be injured or killed, but only if common sense does not prevail.

[BDunnell]

I don't believe this is right.

Yes there will always be accidents & there will always be a chance that they will cause fatalities. However we (rally/motorsport people as a collective) should do everything we can (within reason of course) to minimise the chance that a fatality will occur. Nobody wants to see people injured in motorsport let alone killed & if everybody can work together (I know this is a stretch) we will find ways of making it safer for everyone involved.

Minimise, yes - eliminate, no. That's not possible and can only be done by stopping the sport.

[pettersolberg29]

I hope I don't sound callous, but:-
'Motorsport is Dangerous - You attend at your own risk'

I sometimes wonder, particularly on Rally GB, if they've gone too far with spectator restrictions - standing so far back you may as well be at home watching on TV. You can't make it 100% safe, unfortunately in this litiguous society, the organisers have to cover their own backs in regards to insurance, safety, etc
I do worry were it will end.

I agree 100% esp. regarding Rally GB

[Daniel]

Minimise, yes - eliminate, no. That's not possible and can only be done by stopping the sport.
Agreed. Sure a few more people have died in recent years but this only seems so shocking because we were very lucky for a while and the luck ran out.

[Brother John]

The F.I.A comes like always with the solution, but like usually to late.
Firstly there must be a heavy accident in WRC with someone of the top drivers before them will replace the too fast hightech computer controlled rally cars. Maybe it will happen in Spain or somewhere else still before the current WRC Cars will disappear! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sad/sad0071.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=sad/sad0071.gif)

[A.F.F.]

I think rallying has had major leaps towards safer sport than it was back in the past. Never you can't make it 100% safe. That probably is one reason it's so appealing to us fans.

But you can affect your own safety on stages. As harsh as anthonyvop put it, I agree completely. I guess I never related social darwism in the rallying. Don't be or act stupid when spectating and you'll propably end up fine and may come back home alive.

[Barreis]

It's stupid that everybody are standin' near the road and car is in the air at 120 km/h.. One wrong moment and they're in ambulance and everybody is writing that some stupid driver killed spectators.. If we look coverages then it's obvious that people have adrenaline problems..

[macksrallye]

Just a bit of a left field thought.

With the cars being so high tech now, when the drivers are on their limit it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the cars (& every element of them eg:tyres) are also at their limit. Whereas in years gone by i'd say that whilst the drivers were at their limit the cars weren't. I'm not saying this is the cause of accidents, merely that when they go off they do so in a big way and that the difference between going off & just having "a moment" has become much smaller.

[Iskald]

Just a bit of a left field thought.

With the cars being so high tech now, when the drivers are on their limit it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the cars (& every element of them eg:tyres) are also at their limit. Whereas in years gone by i'd say that whilst the drivers were at their limit the cars weren't. I'm not saying this is the cause of accidents, merely that when they go off they do so in a big way and that the difference between going off & just having "a moment" has become much smaller.

I would say that it has probably more to do with how the sport have developed in general. The technical aspect is just one of several development areas. The accident in Norway where Andreas Mikkelsen hit a young girl, who unfortunately died, was with a Subaru Impreza cup car, in effect a restricted version of a group N car. Not extremely hightech, in other words.

How driving and use of pacenotes have developed is a more plausible answer to why more cars go off in a big way, especially in tarmac events. With maxed-out pacenotes and a driver using all the road and possibly a bit more, the margin of error has become much less. This is a natural development of the sport, and something that we all should take into consideration when we choose our points to spectate.

[Mirek]

Every single spectator should see a video like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xelFa1iPKU

[BDunnell]

I would say that it has probably more to do with how the sport have developed in general. The technical aspect is just one of several development areas. The accident in Norway where Andreas Mikkelsen hit a young girl, who unfortunately died, was with a Subaru Impreza cup car, in effect a restricted version of a group N car. Not extremely hightech, in other words.

How driving and use of pacenotes have developed is a more plausible answer to why more cars go off in a big way, especially in tarmac events. With maxed-out pacenotes and a driver using all the road and possibly a bit more, the margin of error has become much less. This is a natural development of the sport, and something that we all should take into consideration when we choose our points to spectate.

I would also suggest that the nature of modern events, being 'sprints', is also a contributory factor.

[Francis44]

The F.I.A comes like always with the solution, but like usually to late.
Firstly there must be a heavy accident in WRC with someone of the top drivers before them will replace the too fast hightech computer controlled rally cars. Maybe it will happen in Spain or somewhere else still before the current WRC Cars will disappear! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sad/sad0071.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=sad/sad0071.gif)

I dont agree with tht seeing that most of the fatal accidents happen with older and less powerfull cars!!!!

[Daniel]

I quite agree Francis.

[Barreis]

Safe zones must be safe zones.. It's ok for me if stage is cancelled 'cos of safety reasons..

[J4MIE]

Safe zones must be safe zones.. It's ok for me if stage is cancelled 'cos of safety reasons..

But, as posted previously, there is NO safe zone at a rally. You can reduce the risk (not standing on the outside of corners is a good one) but I have seen cars go off there as well as the inside, or indeed on straight bits of road. Nowhere is safe, you can only try to reduce the risk.

Not sitting down is something I would always recommend though.

[Daniel]

But, as posted previously, there is NO safe zone at a rally. You can reduce the risk (not standing on the outside of corners is a good one) but I have seen cars go off there as well as the inside, or indeed on straight bits of road. Nowhere is safe, you can only try to reduce the risk.

Not sitting down is something I would always recommend though.
Or by wearing a tabard :p Tabards are even more effective at stoping cars than tape!

Case in point below....
http://members.iinet.net.au/~fenix1983/Files/Dangerous2.JPG

[grugsticles]

I dont know whether to laugh or cry at the picture above.
That photographer has chosen the most dangerous spot on that corner to take a bloody photo.
The race car could loose steering, brakes or have a suspension failure, the driver looses control and the car would head straight on in its current path - directly towards the photographer.

In terms of spectator safety at Rallys, in fact in all forms of motor sport, common sence should prevail.

[Daniel]

I dont know whether to laugh or cry at the picture above.
That photographer has chosen the most dangerous spot on that corner to take a bloody photo.
The race car could loose steering, brakes or have a suspension failure, the driver looses control and the car would head straight on in its current path - directly towards the photographer.

In terms of spectator safety at Rallys, in fact in all forms of motor sport, common sence should prevail.
Is now a good time to mention that I'm the person in the photo and J4mie is the one taking the photo? :p

I just got excited at seeing my first 306 Maxi that for a moment I didn't quite care that I was standing in a dangerous spot, I had to get a photo of that fantastic car. J4mie and I ended up taking photos from along the fence which was much safer :)

[J4MIE]

Daniel did you forget that the cars were doing about 30mph there? ;) Indeed some just went round and round in circles :crazy: It was an ok place to stand I'd say from what I remember. You had to keep moving to stay warm anyway :p :

[Daniel]

Yeah that too :p Pity I didn't get to meet Pentti that day :(

[grugsticles]

Well, I still stand by my words.
I guess, it is your life after all.

[Lousada]

Daniel did you forget that the cars were doing about 30mph there? ;) Indeed some just went round and round in circles :crazy: It was an ok place to stand I'd say from what I remember. You had to keep moving to stay warm anyway :p :

30 mph can kill too. A car on wet grass can't stop nor steer.

Some people just never learn I guess...

[Daniel]

30 mph can kill too. A car on wet grass can't stop nor steer.

Some people just never learn I guess...
Hence why we didn't stick around :)

[tmx]

30 mph can kill too. A car on wet grass can't stop nor steer.

Some people just never learn I guess... Haha, its exactly what I thought, thanks for pointing that out.

[Daniel]

Haha, its exactly what I thought, thanks for pointing that out.
Gawd I wish I'd never posted the bloody picture as a joke :p

It was at Rally Day in 2005 and the cars weren't even going around in anger, they really were just pootling around quite slowly.

[Retlub Ecaps]

In a WAR yes, in a SPORT EVENT, no there shouldn't be fatal accidents at all. And this should be finally acknowledget by FIA as well.

When was the last spectator fatality at an FIA rally? I thought there hadn't been any since the Group B days, but I don't know my rally history well at all.

[Mirek]

What is FIA rally? If You mean WRC, it was in 1995 and 1996 Rally Finland (one dead in both). But there are much more rallys all over the world run in FIA championships and cups.

[HaCo]

When was the last spectator fatality at an FIA rally? I thought there hadn't been any since the Group B days, but I don't know my rally history well at all.

Are you serious? In Belgium I know there was one in Boucles the Spa and one in Ypres Rally in the '90s. In '03 there was a spectator killed in Condroz.

But also in shakedown of Portugal (I thought?) with privat Mitsu WRC, also in Poland shakedown recently... But there are many examples I guess...

Unfortunately these accidents keep on happening. I think a lot of people would already be saved if they are far enough from the road and certainly far enough from jumps!

[Retlub Ecaps]

]What is FIA rally? If You mean WRC, it was in 1995 and 1996 Rally Finland (one dead in both). But there are much more rallys all over the world run in FIA championships and cups.

Ah, okay, thanks for the info. What I meant was rallies where the FIA could reasonably be held responsible for allowing spectators to be in dangerous places.

[Retlub Ecaps]

Are you serious? In Belgium I know there was one in Boucles the Spa and one in Ypres Rally in the '90s. In '03 there was a spectator killed in Condroz.

But also in shakedown of Portugal (I thought?) with privat Mitsu WRC, also in Poland shakedown recently... But there are many examples I guess...

Unfortunately these accidents keep on happening. I think a lot of people would already be saved if they are far enough from the road and certainly far enough from jumps!

Yes, I'm serious; I barely even knew rally existed two years ago, so I don't know much about what happened 5 or 15 years ago. The worst injury I can remember from 2008 & 2009 is Gigi Galli's fracture. I don't remember hearing about spectators being killed this year in Poland or Portugal, and I'm not finding anything on Google now either; are you sure about those?

[Mirek]

I don't know about any spectator accident in Poland this year. And if HaCo means Portugal 2007 when Araujo hit people on shakedown, there were no dead people. Some injured ones yes.

[HaCo]

It wasn't this year... I'm not sure when it was.

Here about portugal, but apparantly I was wrong, they were injured.
http://www.crash.net/world+rally/news/118766/1/five_spectators_injured_in_shakedown.html

And Poland 2007, WRC candidate at that time:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/08/03/spectator-dies-after-rally-car-smashes-into-crowd-91466-24300626/

Argentina 2007
http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1346&Itemid=2

Also Sainz with his Focus hit a spectator in Rally GB (2001)
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-80277334.html

[tmx]

Yes, I'm serious; I barely even knew rally existed two years ago, so I don't know much about what happened 5 or 15 years ago. The worst injury I can remember from 2008 & 2009 is Gigi Galli's fracture. I don't remember hearing about spectators being killed this year in Poland or Portugal, and I'm not finding anything on Google now either; are you sure about those?

You need to see rallying in the pass with Group B to realized just how dangerous it was back then. One of the reason Group B was canceled was because a Ford tried to avoid a spectator in the middle of the road and in the process plowed into the crowd and killed 3 spectator and injuring many.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E2ZFJkMNB8&#t=02m20s

Safety of the sport has improved greatly, but we can always improve. I love to criticize the FIA, but they actually has done many things to improve safety over the years.

Personally I feel it is disrespectful in a way that some rally news site and WRC.com do not report on the death from other rallies, especially with Bulgaria. It is as if its to keep good commercial images. Colin mentioned it a bit today on the radio, but it should be more spoken about.

[HaCo]

Yes tmx, I have the same feeling about that. You don't find much info ons injured or killed spectators in wrc site. I think there should be big signs, videos and images to explain to ppl that it is VERY dangerous...

[HaCo]

Here an image where spectators were VERY lucky to escape:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD6dYWE0qkM

[HaCo]

Another lucky escape in WRC when Makinen crashed in Argentina few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MkRZpE-yk4

[Mirek]

And Poland 2007, WRC candidate at that time:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/08/03/spectator-dies-after-rally-car-smashes-into-crowd-91466-24300626/

The article is about an accident on Harry Flatters Rally 2009. But You are right, there was a fatal accident on Rajd Polski shakedown 2007. I forgot that.

[HaCo]

]The article is about an accident on Harry Flatters Rally 2009. But You are right, there was a fatal accident on Rajd Polski shakedown 2007. I forgot that.

Owh, picked the wrong article, sorry...

[J4MIE]

30 mph can kill too. A car on wet grass can't stop nor steer.

Some people just never learn I guess...

Well I find that offensive actually, if you look closely you will see a large strip of tarmac where the car is. I was quite happy to stand there and for Daniel to stand there also. Although he did spoil the shot a bit.

I have been to hundreds of stages over the past few years and know a bit about where it should be ok to stand and where it is idiotic and I know the difference. I try to keep things to what I consider an acceptable risk as much as I can.

I also try not to comment on photos of others as I usually don't know what the full situation is.

[J4MIE]

Ah, okay, thanks for the info. What I meant was rallies where the FIA could reasonably be held responsible for allowing spectators to be in dangerous places.

I don't think the FIA could, nor should, be held responsible for spectators. If you start going down that route then a lot of legal action will start and mean the end of rallying, simple. At every event I have ever been to, there are signs and infrmation about where it is dangerous to stand and if you choose to ignore the advice, then you take your life into your own hands. If you cannot be responsible to look after yourself and others you are with (friends/family members for instance), through choice or pure ignorance, then you have to accept the risk and/or the consequences.

[bowler]

Ah, okay, thanks for the info. What I meant was rallies where the FIA could reasonably be held responsible for allowing spectators to be in dangerous places.

The FIA do not run any rallies.

Organisers run rallies that participate in FIA Championships.

It is impossible to control spectators 100% of the time, unless there are no rallies at all. repeat "no rallies at all".

In WRC Rallies the FIA have a safety delegate who checks the position of spectators before the first car. He also checks new rallies before they are run to make sure that the roads are suitable. After the first car is past it is impossible to to check every spectator in every case. This only applies in WRC rallies, and not regional championships.

Events always tell spectators that motorsport is dangerous.

It is the responsibility of the spectator to make sure they are safe. Organisers do all that they can, but individual idiots are just that, idiots. If motorsport has to be made safe for the idiots then it is all over.

Instead of trying to make someone else responsible, people need to look after themselves. That is a concept that people seem to have forgotten, and they want someone else to be responsible for their stupid actions.

It is all very well having an enquiry after an accident, and blaming someone to ease your conscience, but if the person wasn't in a silly place there would be no injury and no enquiry. That is a much better solution.

[Daniel]

Well I find that offensive actually, if you look closely you will see a large strip of tarmac where the car is. I was quite happy to stand there and for Daniel to stand there also. Although he did spoil the shot a bit.

I have been to hundreds of stages over the past few years and know a bit about where it should be ok to stand and where it is idiotic and I know the difference. I try to keep things to what I consider an acceptable risk as much as I can.

I also try not to comment on photos of others as I usually don't know what the full situation is.
Plus we signed a declaration a few minutes before basically saying that we were taking our lives into our own hands.

My favourite place to stand was at the media point at the Bunnings watersplash at Rally Australia. The cars are coming right at you and then they turn, just magical.

I usually only stand on the insides of corners or on a large bank on the outside, never in a ditch, never after a jump unless I'm on a big bank and just go by the standard sort of rules.

I've seen absolutely moronic taped up official spectator areas on rallies that I wouldn't stand in. At Rally Australia in 2003 I saw a spectator area on the outside about 20 metres up from off camber corner corner approached at great speed and strangely enough after the first 2 cars passed which both ended up slightly off the road the area got closed. An experienced spectator can look at a corner and see what sort of accident a car could have and position themselves appropriately. Before the 0 car had come passed I did say to one of the marshals that it was a stupid spot for a spectator point....

[Daniel]

It is the responsibility of the spectator to make sure they are safe. Organisers do all that they can, but individual idiots are just that, idiots. If motorsport has to be made safe for the idiots then it is all over.

Instead of trying to make someone else responsible, people need to look after themselves. That is a concept that people seem to have forgotten, and they want someone else to be responsible for their stupid actions.

It is all very well having an enquiry after an accident, and blaming someone to ease your conscience, but if the person wasn't in a silly place there would be no injury and no enquiry. That is a much better solution.

Very true Bowler.

I'll hold my hand up and say that when I've had a tabard I've probably stood in some places which are a bit less safe than spectator pens but I sign the waiver and I take my life into my own hands and unless someone tries to take a 30 mph corner at 60 mph anything which happens to me is completely my responsibility.

The only way to truly make rallies 100% safe for spectators is to ban spectators on stages or adopt systems like they had at Rally Australia where everyone bar the media stand in cordoned off areas and spectators aren't allowed to walk up the stage and choose a point which is safe and I feel this would be a great great pity because a lot is lost when people have to almost use binoculars to view the cars.....

[AndyRAC]

Very true Bowler.

I'll hold my hand up and say that when I've had a tabard I've probably stood in some places which are a bit less safe than spectator pens but I sign the waiver and I take my life into my own hands and unless someone tries to take a 30 mph corner at 60 mph anything which happens to me is completely my responsibility.

The only way to truly make rallies 100% safe for spectators is to ban spectators on stages or adopt systems like they had at Rally Australia where everyone bar the media stand in cordoned off areas and spectators aren't allowed to walk up the stage and choose a point which is safe and I feel this would be a great great pity because a lot is lost when people have to almost use binoculars to view the cars.....

Which is how RallyGB has ended up. For example, on the Halfway stage, on the section known as Route 60, there is a Hairpin, the speccies are up on a bank, but for RallyGB, the tape is 20 yards back. Go to an event in the same place such as the Quinton, and the tape isn't there. They completely over-reacted to what happened in 2001 in Brechfa.

[J4MIE]

Andy the worst event in that respect has been Germany for me :( http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1862/125/80/529115611/n529115611_5321460_9270.jpg

[Rally_Rocks]

Well I find that offensive actually, if you look closely you will see a large strip of tarmac where the car is. I was quite happy to stand there and for Daniel to stand there also. Although he did spoil the shot a bit.

I have been to hundreds of stages over the past few years and know a bit about where it should be ok to stand and where it is idiotic and I know the difference. I try to keep things to what I consider an acceptable risk as much as I can.

I also try not to comment on photos of others as I usually don't know what the full situation is.

I've been reading with some degree of dismay yours and Daniel's posts over recent years. I often wondered wether you were speaking from a position of authority or just talking out of your arse. Now i have conclusive proof.

Complete and utter madness to stand in that position. There are no excuses.

In any proper rally, that corner would have been taped off limits to everyone, photographers included. You have abused your position as an accredited member of the media and set a dreadful example to all the "ordinary" fans watching from behind the barriers.

And Daniel, to say you have signed a disclaimer is just crazy and shows incredible naivety.

Makes me feel very dismayed that supposededly informed people can behave so incredibly irresponsibly.

[Daniel]

I've been reading with some degree of dismay yours and Daniel's posts over recent years. I often wondered wether you were speaking from a position of authority or just talking out of your arse. Now i have conclusive proof.

Complete and utter madness to stand in that position. There are no excuses.

In any proper rally, that corner would have been taped off limits to everyone, photographers included. You have abused your position as an accredited member of the media and set a dreadful example to all the "ordinary" fans watching from behind the barriers.

And Daniel, to say you have signed a disclaimer is just crazy and shows incredible naivety.

Makes me feel very dismayed that supposededly informed people can behave so incredibly irresponsibly.
:dozey:

We stood there for all of about two cars :rolleyes: I saw a bloody 306 Maxi for the first time and wanted to record the moment *shrugs* To say I have signed a disclaimer shows that I'm willing to take responsibility for my own life and am not the sort of person who is going to blame someone else when something goes wrong when it's mostly my doing. If you think that people with a tabard on at rallies always stand in a position that's 100% safe you're only kidding yourself. Like I said I would stand there normally, but 306 Maxi and all...... anyone who knows me from this forum knows that it's my favourite car of all time.

As I said we very quickly moved on to where the other photographers were standing.

[Lousada]

Well I find that offensive actually, if you look closely you will see a large strip of tarmac where the car is. I was quite happy to stand there and for Daniel to stand there also. Although he did spoil the shot a bit.

I have been to hundreds of stages over the past few years and know a bit about where it should be ok to stand and where it is idiotic and I know the difference. I try to keep things to what I consider an acceptable risk as much as I can.

I also try not to comment on photos of others as I usually don't know what the full situation is.

It is not about this particular situation, it's about your attitude about it. Whenever I tried to point out to some guy (often with a camera) that his position is not exactly safe, too many times the reaction is "OMGWTFSTFU I GO TO 100 OF RALLIES EVERY YEAR". Like that somehow magicly stops a loose car on the gras.

We have all done some dangerous things while spectating, deliberately or not. But at least be man enough to own up that it was stupid and don't come touting on a forum about it.
Your behavious sets an example to the other spectators. Not everyone is very experienced. They just copy what other people who look experienced are doing.

[Lousada]

:dozey:

We stood there for all of about two cars :rolleyes: I saw a bloody 306 Maxi for the first time and wanted to record the moment *shrugs* To say I have signed a disclaimer shows that I'm willing to take responsibility for my own life and am not the sort of person who is going to blame someone else when something goes wrong when it's mostly my doing. If you think that people with a tabard on at rallies always stand in a position that's 100% safe you're only kidding yourself. Like I said I would stand there normally, but 306 Maxi and all...... anyone who knows me from this forum knows that it's my favourite car of all time.

As I said we very quickly moved on to where the other photographers were standing.

It only takes one car to ....blahblahblah
That other people with tabards might be doing stupid things is not an argument for you, but you already knew that I hope.

You are not taking responsibility for the people who could drive you over, nor the 100 or so people watching you get mowed down, nor the organizers who might not be blamed by you but still suffer from bad publicity, higher insurance rates next year and so on.


Anyway, we really need an old-man-shaking-his-fist-smiley ;)

[HaCo]

@J4MIE: that is an image of the shakedown of rally Germany. To be honest, I like the situation how it is there, because everybody is far from the side of the stage, everyone can see something: which makes this place a good place for A LOT of people and not only for the 20 people that are in the inner corner of the hairpin (where the cars come from before that shot).

A lot of times places become MUCH more interesting for spectators when they are all placed further away from the side of the road, because overview becomes much better. A nice (VERY VERY NICE) plus is that spectators are at a much safer spot at the same time.

You can read here that in rally you are never safe: well on the spot you showed, you ARE 100% safe.

[Retlub Ecaps]

I don't think the FIA could, nor should, be held responsible for spectators.

I personally agree. That isn't what I meant to imply; I was a bit careless in my wording. I was originally replying to Woodeye saying there shouldn't be fatalities at sporting events, and "this should finally be acknowledged by the FIA". I was wondering when fatalities had occurred which could potentially have been prevented by the FIA, or by FIA action of some kind.

To everyone else who replied, thanks for the info; this post would get too long if I quoted you all individually. :)