Things not so rosy at Brawn GP?

[Dave B]

Ross Brawn has gone out of his way to say that his drivers will be allowed to fight it out for the championship "so long as it's open and on the table".

Fair enough.

But this from The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6834490.ece) would suggest that Barrichello, who earlier in the season believed he wasn't being given an equal chance, is not being quite as co-operative as his team mate:


Barrichello is thought to have refused to co-operate in the customary way by sharing data and information, which has had a serious impact on Button’s mid-season performance. Ross Brawn, the team’s owner, is said to have made his feelings known forcefully to Barrichello, who was getting Button’s data without revealing his own.

Rubens has always struck me as a pretty fair sort of guy, if a little emotional, so this comes as something of a surprise... if it's true.

It also seems a little strange that Ross Brawn's only response was to "make his feelings known", when surely as team principal he could simply obtain any data he wants and share it with whoever he sees fit.

Maybe the cracks are starting to show in this seemingly well-oiled championship machine :s

[Garry Walker]

Why should Barrichello share his data with Button? They are fighting for the title, if button is so mega as his fanboys think he is (Laughable, I know), why would he need the help of Rubens to win?

Good for Rubens, this is his chance to win the title and he is doing the 100% correct thing.
Obviously he feels that Button will lose more from not sharing the data than he would if Button stopped sharing data.

[ShiftingGears]

I hope Button wins since he hasn't exploded at his team when he hasn't been fast enough.

[Dave B]

Why should Barrichello share his data with Button?
Because that's what his employer is paying him to do, maybe?

I understand his concerns: all that time as Michael Shumacher's team mate saw him taking one for the team on many occasions, and this is his first (and probably only) genuine shot at the title.

But if there's an agreement that the data flows both ways, then he should respect his side of the deal.

[Storm]

Maybe he did not ask for Button's data and is still getting it?
Also just from news reports we do not get any idea if something happened backstage so to speak during the early part of the season which has made Rubens play hardball with the team/Button. Brawn does look like another 'team' which is in reality a one-man team like Hamilton/McLaren or MS/Ferrari.

On the BBC F1 blog, the writer recently said "Brawn would really like to see Button crowned champion rather than Barrichello" I am assuming this is not just his brain wave but rather the vibes the paddock gets from the team.

Since Rubens allegedly stopped sharing his data, he is kicking his world championship leader team-mate's butt. So it is working :)

[Knock-on]

On the surface it does seem to be quite petty from Rubens but who knows?

Jensons mid season dip would have little to do with this and more to do with changes to things like the brakes etc which suit Rubens driving style more coupled with the cold temperatures which again hit Button harder.

Button does conceed that Rubens is about the best he has seen at setting a car up but because of their different styles, data that might be relevant to Rubens is not to Jenson and visa-versa.

However, don't let the facts get in the way of a good old opinion chaps :D

[AndyL]

Perhaps the story is little more than speculation. Based on his comments over the weekend, Jenson seems happy enough with their working relationship.

[ioan]

Did Rubens sequestrate his engineers with their computers after each race and kept them locked in a safe?!

This story is a bit weird IMO because in order to keep his data from being shared with Button's engineers Rubens needs the full cooperation of his race engineer and the rest of his crew.
It doesn't really make much sense unless Rubens' race engineer is part of this and that would mean that something made him stick to this politics. But what could that be?

[ArrowsFA1]

This story is a bit weird IMO because in order to keep his data from being shared with Button's engineers Rubens needs the full cooperation of his race engineer and the rest of his crew.
If Nigel Mansell is anything to go by there are ways and means :p

Rubens may have the appearance of a "nice guy" but he wants to win, and surely this is his best, and probably last, opportunity to win a WDC. With that in mind it wouldn't be too surprising if, as a racing driver, he did everything within his power to do just that.

[ioan]

If Nigel Mansell is anything to go by there are ways and means :p

Rubens may have the appearance of a "nice guy" but he wants to win, and surely this is his best, and probably last, opportunity to win a WDC. With that in mind it wouldn't be too surprising if, as a racing driver, he did everything within his power to do just that.

What I say is that Rubens doesn't carry his data in his pocket, it's all stored in the team's database and I suppose that Ross Brawn of all people has easy access to it unless Jock Clear is protecting the data from people outside Ruben's garage side.

[MrJan]

If Nigel Mansell is anything to go by there are ways and means :p

Rubens may have the appearance of a "nice guy" but he wants to win, and surely this is his best, and probably last, opportunity to win a WDC. With that in mind it wouldn't be too surprising if, as a racing driver, he did everything within his power to do just that.

It's dirty to mention Rubens and that other moustachioed twunt in the same post :p :

The fat man that went to IRL (or whatever) is well known for being an arse, something which he has proved many times over. Rubens on the other hand is reknowned as being a nice guy, that's a difficult act to keep up across the sort of career Barrichello has had :)

[Knock-on]

It's dirty to mention Rubens and that other moustachioed twunt in the same post :p :

The fat man that went to IRL (or whatever) is well known for being an arse, something which he has proved many times over. Rubens on the other hand is reknowned as being a nice guy, that's a difficult act to keep up across the sort of career Barrichello has had :)

Rubens would have to be stupid not to have picked up a few tips and techniques from the master when he was at Ferrari ;)

It's a tough call isn't it. Ross wants the best for the team and employes the two drivers he thinks will deliver that.

The drivers want what's best for themselves and hope their team mates spin off on the safety lap. :)

Rubens and Jenson seem to get on more than most team mates but make no mistake, they both would do whatever possible to increase their chances over their team mate.

They're not choir boys ;)

[markabilly]

Maybe he did not ask for Button's data and is still getting it?
Also just from news reports we do not get any idea if something happened backstage so to speak during the early part of the season which has made Rubens play hardball with the team/Button. Brawn does look like another 'team' which is in reality a one-man team like Hamilton/McLaren or MS/Ferrari.

On the BBC F1 blog, the writer recently said "Brawn would really like to see Button crowned champion rather than Barrichello" I am assuming this is not just his brain wave but rather the vibes the paddock gets from the team.

Since Rubens allegedly stopped sharing his data, he is kicking his world championship leader team-mate's butt. So it is working :)
probably some truth there, unfortunately, for Ruben

So as his last few races inmaybe his last season may be upon him, i think ruben will rock and roll, w/o giving a sh*t as to what rossie thinks, as it is ruben's last chance to shake off the MS lap dog image

and if button can not win w/o ruben set up data, then button don't deserve it..... :dozey:

[F1boat]

and if button can not win w/o ruben set up data, then button don't deserve it..... :dozey:

But then Jenson should block his data as well. If this is true, I truly hope that Jenson will win the WDC.

[tec4]

Fine line between sportsman agreement and winning, I guess? Clearly, sharing benefits both drivers on the same team -- not changing rules when sight of winning overrides team rules.

Just how useful is data for different setup styles? except to see that different brake pads would enable Rubens to win (at 5th last race), when split second different qualifying grid position can determine a win, when passing is difficult due to closely matched racecars or track design.

Data seem a very small, next to much larger split second factors?

[Roamy]

What I say is that Rubens doesn't carry his data in his pocket, it's all stored in the team's database and I suppose that Ross Brawn of all people has easy access to it unless Jock Clear is protecting the data from people outside Ruben's garage side.

Jock has been known to do that. There is a lot of data outside the computers. I have never thought of Button as brilliant when it comes to car development and set up. RB has many years with several teams and I would imagine he saw about everything in his career. So RB and clear may be making some changes just before the last sessions and perhaps not passing that data on.

Well too fff ing bad - maybe jenson needs for further his learning career if he wants to be champ. And of course Clear is the best engineer they have. If jenson loses this championship he has no one to blame but himself. also with his point lead you know he is driving conservative if he finishes every race right behind RB he will be champion.

[Knock-on]

Jock has been known to do that. There is a lot of data outside the computers. I have never thought of Button as brilliant when it comes to car development and set up. RB has many years with several teams and I would imagine he saw about everything in his career. So RB and clear may be making some changes just before the last sessions and perhaps not passing that data on.

Well too fff ing bad - maybe jenson needs for further his learning career if he wants to be champ. And of course Clear is the best engineer they have. If jenson loses this championship he has no one to blame but himself. also with his point lead you know he is driving conservative if he finishes every race right behind RB he will be champion.

I agree that JC is a past master at squirreling away data and that if you left both to their own devices, JB should be able to set up his car independantly. Who says he isn't though ;)

If you're working as a team, you can see the impact on the car that changes might have so you can both get up to speed quicker. If they don't share, then it really benefits the opposition.

It's Ross Brawns call at the end of the day and the employees either do their job or F off.

[Dave B]

Christian Horner explained the way data flows between the Red Bull and Toro Rosso teams, and it's difficult to imagine Brawn having a dissimilar setup: the moment a request is made for any setup change it's automatically logged on their mainframe and visible to both teams and the respective factories.

To do otherwise would make reproducing a successful setup all but impossible, and massively hinder the jobs of the test and design teams.

I'm fairly confident that in this day and age "squirilling away" data would be a lot harder than even someone as intelligent as Jock Clear making a few scribbles in his notebook.

[Knock-on]

What is it about Jock Clear?

He always seems to be with the nearly me. Herbert, DC, JV, Sato, Rubens. OK, so he was fortunate that Jacques managed to win in a blinding car but always seems to get the drivers who turn into #2.

Nothing against the bloke but he is a bit of a Jonah imho.

[Roamy]

What is it about Jock Clear?

He always seems to be with the nearly me. Herbert, DC, JV, Sato, Rubens. OK, so he was fortunate that Jacques managed to win in a blinding car but always seems to get the drivers who turn into #2.

Nothing against the bloke but he is a bit of a Jonah imho.

I thought he was with Senna????

[Firstgear]

If Brawn were fighting against the other teams/drivers then they should be sharing data so that they can be more competative against their rivals.
The constructors title is pretty much over. The only thing left to fight for is the drivers title. Both of the Brawn drivers are clearly ahead of everyone else, so their main rivals are eachother. Sharing data in this situation is pointless, as it will only help your rival (who just happens to also be your teammate).

I have no problems with the drivers in this situation not wanting to share data.

[wedge]

Ross Brawn has gone out of his way to say that his drivers will be allowed to fight it out for the championship "so long as it's open and on the table".

Fair enough.

But this from The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6834490.ece) would suggest that Barrichello, who earlier in the season believed he wasn't being given an equal chance, is not being quite as co-operative as his team mate:



Rubens has always struck me as a pretty fair sort of guy, if a little emotional, so this comes as something of a surprise... if it's true.

It also seems a little strange that Ross Brawn's only response was to "make his feelings known", when surely as team principal he could simply obtain any data he wants and share it with whoever he sees fit.

Maybe the cracks are starting to show in this seemingly well-oiled championship machine :s

Questionable journalism.

Doesn't really go into detail. For instance in Valencia free practice Rubens and Button happily traded set ups.



Why should Barrichello share his data with Button? They are fighting for the title, if button is so mega as his fanboys think he is (Laughable, I know), why would he need the help of Rubens to win?

Good for Rubens, this is his chance to win the title and he is doing the 100% correct thing.
Obviously he feels that Button will lose more from not sharing the data than he would if Button stopped sharing data.

Agree. This is F1, not endurance racing.



But if there's an agreement that the data flows both ways, then he should respect his side of the deal.

Depends if Rubens wants to race next year.

[jens]

Based on post-Monza emotions, it looks like Brawn drivers have a really healthy relationship despite championship battle. Both were smiling and talking to each other with joy. On the other hand - no surprise, because both of them should have been very satisfied with the result. :p :

[Charlie]

What is it about Jock Clear?

He always seems to be with the nearly me. Herbert, DC, JV, Sato, Rubens.

Note that the last three were in the same Brackley based team as a certain Jenson Button.

Anyway stop critising Barichello, most of the news sources reporting the story are saying it's RB's techical team or the 'other side of the garage' to Button. Barichello will have no control over the storage and protection of data, merely an opportunity to analyse.

Quite frankly I don't blame them, I'd imagine quite a few in the Brawn team would rather see Rubinho win the championship than Button and somebody like Jock Clear will try his dam hardest to help Rubens the best he can. I mean it seems pretty sure that Barichello is going to be dumped at the end of this season anyway.

[CNR]

if it is anything like motogp honda would download the data from mick doohans bike and share with other other bikes in the teams (4 bikes at that time) and that is why Jeremy Burgess/ rossi fiat yamaha team is a split team

[driveace]

I believe that some drivers give a better feed back to the teams ,about what they want to ,be done to the car,and that Rubens,through his experience at Ferrari,working with MS is better at this than Button.Was it not Fernando that sorted out the Mclaren,and said his feedback made that car 7 tenths of a second faster in all the testing he did with it in Spain.
IF the imformation is correct,then I dont blame Rubens at all.

[Saint Devote]

Why should Barrichello share his data with Button? They are fighting for the title, if button is so mega as his fanboys think he is (Laughable, I know), why would he need the help of Rubens to win?

Good for Rubens, this is his chance to win the title and he is doing the 100% correct thing.
Obviously he feels that Button will lose more from not sharing the data than he would if Button stopped sharing data.

Again - who says the story is true?

You know what the media is like these days. And unless it has a reputable motor racing journalist's name alongside I dismiss it.

As for data - what data? Engineering data that will benefit a car will be used by Brawn regardless of a driver's wishes - it is a team and one that from this perch is one of the happiest and cohesive seen in f1 for a longtime.

It is a credit to its lineage as we all know named the Tyrrell team.

Secondly, Jenson and Rubens have totally different styles of driving. Jenson prefers understeer while Rubens oversteer.

[Saint Devote]

It's dirty to mention Rubens and that other moustachioed twunt in the same post :p :

The fat man that went to IRL (or whatever) is well known for being an arse, something which he has proved many times over. Rubens on the other hand is reknowned as being a nice guy, that's a difficult act to keep up across the sort of career Barrichello has had :)

Board monitor please allow me:

Mr Leo - how can you insult an f1 driver like that - regardless of who it is? But especially Nigel Mansell!

Nigel is a driver that drove his heart out for his fans [particularly his British fans] as well as himself and his team.

You ought to apologize to Nigel - incidentally one of the most successful f1 drivers ever. :vader:

[Saint Devote]

Jenson and Rubens have been around f1 too long to indulge in such childish nonsense.

These are two drivers in the mold of what was the traditional grand prix driver - skilled, experienced and each one exhibiting the temperament to a significant degree of the culture they were raised in.

Which driver is better or whatever is immaterial because in f1 at their level the differences are measured in fractions of a second.

I have been a longtime supporter of Jenson and it still grates that he could not participate in the 2005 Monaco Grand Prix because he was in a mood to win it then!

He would also be one of the best ambassadors this sport has had for many years because he is eloquent, cosmopolitan, mature and will appreciate the championship title in a way that only a driver that has come through years of struggle to reach it can.

[ArrowsFA1]

I thought he was with Senna????
Profile of Jock Clear - http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-clejoc.html (could do with a little updating!!)

[Roamy]

Profile of Jock Clear - http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-clejoc.html (could do with a little updating!!)

When Senna was at Williams who was his engineer????

[ioan]

Board monitor please allow me:

Mr Leo - how can you insult an f1 driver like that - regardless of who it is? But especially Nigel Mansell!

Nigel is a driver that drove his heart out for his fans [particularly his British fans] as well as himself and his team.

You ought to apologize to Nigel - incidentally one of the most successful f1 drivers ever. :vader:

Huh?!

[ioan]

I have been a longtime supporter of Jenson and it still grates that he could not participate in the 2005 Monaco Grand Prix because he was in a mood to win it then!

And you probably also thnk he would have lapped the field at least twice in that race, because he was in the mood to win it. :D



He would also be one of the best ambassadors this sport has had for many years because he is eloquent, cosmopolitan, mature and will appreciate the championship title in a way that only a driver that has come through years of struggle to reach it can.

And he probably can 'walk on water while turning it into wine'. :p :

[Saint Devote]

And you probably also thnk he would have lapped the field at least twice in that race, because he was in the mood to win it. :D



And he probably can 'walk on water while turning it into wine'. :p :

Actually he showed he could walk on water but turned it into something far more useful than wine - a grand prix win at a beautiful circuit called Sepang! :s mokin:

We will never discover how many times he would have lapped the field that day in Monte Carlo because he watched the race from a balcony overlooking Saint Devote!!

But considering Barrichello's comments after qualifying earlier this year when he won pole position: "I left nothing on that lap [his qualifying lap] so I don't know how Jenson went faster".

It could have been even more than twice - in the mood!

Jenson took pole 0.175 quicker than Rubens. :p hyuk-hyuk-hyuk!!!

[Knock-on]

I thought he was with Senna????

Sorry Fousto but I wasn't aware he was? I could be wrong though and will check.

[Saint Devote]

Perhaps its a Brazilian thing?

Back in Brazil Rubens has been known a "pe-de-chello" for sometime, describing the believed tendency that he holds back - although looking at his passing around Webber on the outside at Blanchimont a few weeks ago.....

Wonder what Ferrari thinks with Rubens gettiing together with Felipe in Brazil between races in order to gain a strategic advantage at tracks like Valencia and now for Yas Marina.

Thats it! There is the tactical advantage that he is not disclosing to anyone - Felipe Massa is the secret weapon!

[Big Ben]

It's dirty to mention Rubens and that other moustachioed twunt in the same post :p :

The fat man that went to IRL (or whatever) is well known for being an arse, something which he has proved many times over. Rubens on the other hand is reknowned as being a nice guy, that's a difficult act to keep up across the sort of career Barrichello has had :)

We would like Garry to confirm this since he has the only nice detector around here that's working properly. I think I have fuel adjusting issues.

[Big Ben]

Board monitor please allow me:

Mr Leo - how can you insult an f1 driver like that - regardless of who it is? But especially Nigel Mansell!

Nigel is a driver that drove his heart out for his fans [particularly his British fans] as well as himself and his team.

You ought to apologize to Nigel - incidentally one of the most successful f1 drivers ever. :vader:

Yes board monitor... Please allow him. This kind of comedy makes this depression more bareable :laugh: .

[Robinho]

Board monitor please allow me:

Mr Leo - how can you insult an f1 driver like that - regardless of who it is? But especially Nigel Mansell!

Nigel is a driver that drove his heart out for his fans [particularly his British fans] as well as himself and his team.

You ought to apologize to Nigel - incidentally one of the most successful f1 drivers ever. :vader:

High Horse for Mr Devote!

just because Nigel was a tryer doesn't mean everyone should like him - i was a fan of his growing up, but i don't see why he should be immune from criticism or even insults. i must admit i don't particularly like Mansell the man, even if i was a fan of Mansell the racer.

[ioan]

High Horse for Mr Devote!

just because Nigel was a tryer doesn't mean everyone should like him - i was a fan of his growing up, but i don't see why he should be immune from criticism or even insults. i must admit i don't particularly like Mansell the man, even if i was a fan of Mansell the racer.

Not to mention that he is not that close to being one of the most successful F1 drivers ever, unless the definition is broadened to be proportional with Mansell's size.

[Knock-on]

High Horse for Mr Devote!

just because Nigel was a tryer doesn't mean everyone should like him - i was a fan of his growing up, but i don't see why he should be immune from criticism or even insults. i must admit i don't particularly like Mansell the man, even if i was a fan of Mansell the racer.

I adored watching Mansell race but will concede he's a right bugger. :D

[F1boat]

I have huge respect for Mansell, maybe because he won the first F1 race I have ever watched. :-)

[ShiftingGears]

Not to mention that he is not that close to being one of the most successful F1 drivers ever, unless the definition is broadened to be proportional with Mansell's size.

He is in the top 5 in terms of race victories, so that means he is one of the most successful.

[wedge]

Jenson and Rubens have been around f1 too long to indulge in such childish nonsense.

These are two drivers in the mold of what was the traditional grand prix driver - skilled, experienced and each one exhibiting the temperament to a significant degree of the culture they were raised in.

Which driver is better or whatever is immaterial because in f1 at their level the differences are measured in fractions of a second.

I have been a longtime supporter of Jenson and it still grates that he could not participate in the 2005 Monaco Grand Prix because he was in a mood to win it then!

He would also be one of the best ambassadors this sport has had for many years because he is eloquent, cosmopolitan, mature and will appreciate the championship title in a way that only a driver that has come through years of struggle to reach it can.


Board monitor please allow me:

Mr Leo - how can you insult an f1 driver like that - regardless of who it is? But especially Nigel Mansell!

Nigel is a driver that drove his heart out for his fans [particularly his British fans] as well as himself and his team.

You ought to apologize to Nigel - incidentally one of the most successful f1 drivers ever. :vader:

Naivety at its best.

I suppose you thought Mansell never indulged in childish nonsense?

http://riccardopatrese.net/weblog/?page_id=727

F1 is nicknamed the Piranha Club for no reason. You have to be selfish sod. Even in the so called glory days Graham Hill was regarded as the epitome of the gentleman driver but behind closed doors he treated his mechanics with little respect.

[wedge]

Questionable journalism.


As opposed to good journalism:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/f1mole/2009/09/ted-kravitz-the-italian-grand.html

Following Rubens Barrichello and Jenson Button's one-two in Monza, it was significant that team boss Ross Brawn wanted to stress how his drivers are sharing information on their car's set-up.

His words sounded like he had recently had to bash the drivers' heads together: "I demand they do it fairly and openly... Everything has to be on the table... They have to work together properly", Brawn told us after the race.

It is a difficult balance to strike, and not one he ever had to worry about at Ferrari, where Michael Schumacher's position was pre-eminent.

One regularly hears stories in the paddock about Button 'stealing' Barrichello's set-up - a subject Button discussed in Mark Hughes's column on this website this week - but it's only now the championship is getting tight that the two drivers have started to discuss it publicly.

Barrichello admitted: "When I find something on the car I'm not going to stand up and tell Jenson about it," which is his right. But the Brazilian also conceded that "at the end of the day, the cars get very similar, but that's fine, that's how it is".

[Mark]

'Stealing' the setup? Oh please! It's standard practice in F1 teams that if your setup doesn't work out, you'll try your team mates setup to see if that is any better.

[wedge]

'Stealing' the setup? Oh please! It's standard practice in F1 teams that if your setup doesn't work out, you'll try your team mates setup to see if that is any better.

That's why you have to be selfish so and so in F1.

Think of it in Ruben's POV. He did the set up all by his side of the team. He wants to win WDC just as much as Jenson. Rubens has every right to feel grieved, just as much as Alonso was grieved when it was he who found the initial sixth tenths in the 2007 McLaren.

The battle of team mates looks far more interesting than 2007. It's not just about bruised egos. In mid-2007 McLaren spit the team in half with little ramifications. Brawn has an achilles heel and it seems sharing data requires further understanding of their tyre temp issues.

Bring it on!

[Roamy]

Well now - it looks as though Button is on his way out in favor of Rosberg. Ole contract breaker Button decided that he now wants his money back that he gave up for the team to survive.

More smut on the way ???? MPG I love this sport!!
MPG = Money Power Greed

[Knock-on]

This really is a load of fanny.

Both drivers set up their cars according to their preferences against the availiable data.

All data should be shared along with the settings drivers use. How the hell can a team develop effectivly without access to all relevant data. It's then up to each side of the garage to use that data to set up the car for their drivers and to feed back results.

No driver can "steal" the others setup (how crude :( ) because it's different for each driver and should be visiable anyway.

Simples...

[wedge]

This really is a load of fanny.

Both drivers set up their cars according to their preferences against the availiable data.

All data should be shared along with the settings drivers use. How the hell can a team develop effectivly without access to all relevant data. It's then up to each side of the garage to use that data to set up the car for their drivers and to feed back results.

No driver can "steal" the others setup (how crude :( ) because it's different for each driver and should be visiable anyway.

Simples...


You and your team mate are fighting for WDC. You want to win just as much as he does.

If you found something in the set up and then your team mate used it, would you not feel aggrieved in the slightest?

For instance, Jackie Stewart would always ask Jim Clark for advice, tips and tricks before every GP. The day JYS became a regular race winner and still asked for help from Clark, Clark would go in a strop.

[N. Jones]

I'm confused, once again, what does Williams have to do with this conversation?? :laugh:

IMO, since Ross Brawn said, no team order here, there is going to be fierce competitiveness from both Jensen and Rubens to win their first WDC.

[ArrowsFA1]

For instance, Jackie Stewart would always ask Jim Clark for advice, tips and tricks before every GP. The day JYS became a regular race winner and still asked for help from Clark, Clark would go in a strop.
Really :confused:

For one thing Clark and Stewart were never team-mates in F1. However, they were certainly friends and the idea of Clark in a "strop" doesn't strike me as accurate.

[rabf1]

If Button can take Barrichello's data/setup and go faster than him, then too bad for Rubins.

[Knock-on]

If Button can take Barrichello's data/setup and go faster than him, then too bad for Rubins.

:laugh:

Good point :D

Considering their styles are so different, Jenson should be slower than Rubens with his setup. If he's faster, what does that say :D

[Triumph]

Some interesting comments in this thread as usual. I can see that some of the anti-Button brigade can't quite contain the bitterness that must be eating away at them as go through yet more turmoil, wishing for yet another person's misfortune.

It was very satisfying to watch the same thing happening on here last year as Lewis achieved his championship win, and I hope it happens again this year with Jenson's success.

I think it's much healthier to base F1 enthusiasm on wishing for your favourite driver(s) to succeed, rather than everything having to revolve around the desire to see your least favourite (and often highly talented ;) ) drivers suffer misfortune.

[slinkster]

If this is true, surely the best thing would be fore Jenson to do exactly the same and restrict his own data. Simple.

I've been pretty annoyed with Reubens' comments this year. It seems all those years playing second fiddle at Ferrari have gotten to him. Finally. Funny how he didn't have any competitive streak then.

[ioan]

Some interesting comments in this thread as usual. I can see that some of the anti-Button brigade can't quite contain the bitterness that must be eating away at them as go through yet more turmoil, wishing for yet another person's misfortune.

:rotflmao:

[Dave B]

Some interesting posts. Please bear in mind that my original post did stress "if it's true" and the quote itself says

Barrichello is thought to have refused...

and

Ross Brawn, the team’s owner, is said to have made his feelings known...

Maybe it was a slow news day at Murdoch Towers? :p

[Saint Devote]

Yes board monitor... Please allow him. This kind of comedy makes this depression more bareable :laugh: .

"Bareable"? In what way? :D

You as do others point fingers - but other than that you SAY nothing to even attempt to defend your point.

This just makes MY points stronger as a defacto result of y'all saying..... sweet fanny adams!

I ought to be the one rolling around on the floor laughing but I have good high standards. :s mokin:

[Saint Devote]

High Horse for Mr Devote!

just because Nigel was a tryer doesn't mean everyone should like him - i was a fan of his growing up, but i don't see why he should be immune from criticism or even insults. i must admit i don't particularly like Mansell the man, even if i was a fan of Mansell the racer.

You were a fan of NIGELS?!!!! You dont even KNOW him!!!

God help those drivers you hate! The vitriol will likely melt our computer monitors!

Suffice to say that the relationships at Brawn is the result of what one finds in a battle unit in the army and is unlike, I would wager, anything at the other teams.

The Brawn team has not been formed, it has been FORGED, because these people not only trained together for a long time, but they went through a tough period and had to knuckle down and act as if they knew that they would be on the grid in Australia.

The team we see today and what it says, commanded so well by Ross and his able cohort Nick Fry, in my judgement is genuine in how it presents itself and no matter who wins the title - Jenson or Rubens - I doubt there will be ill-feeling as I now judge and dismiss the rumors of dissatisfaction to be fiction. :s mokin:

[wedge]

Really :confused:

For one thing Clark and Stewart were never team-mates in F1. However, they were certainly friends and the idea of Clark in a "strop" doesn't strike me as accurate.

Have you read JYS autobiography?

Perhaps too many have been sucked into the mythology of that era.

[wedge]

Some interesting posts. Please bear in mind that my original post did stress "if it's true" and the quote itself says

Barrichello is thought to have refused...

and

Ross Brawn, the team’s owner, is said to have made his feelings known...

Maybe it was a slow news day at Murdoch Towers? :p

Can you read post #47 or am I too on your Ignore List? :D

[ioan]

You were a fan of NIGELS?!!!! You dont even KNOW him!!!

God help those drivers you hate! The vitriol will likely melt our computer monitors!

Suffice to say that the relationships at Brawn is the result of what one finds in a battle unit in the army and is unlike, I would wager, anything at the other teams.

The Brawn team has not been formed, it has been FORGED, because these people not only trained together for a long time, but they went through a tough period and had to knuckle down and act as if they knew that they would be on the grid in Australia.

The team we see today and what it says, commanded so well by Ross and his able cohort Nick Fry, in my judgement is genuine in how it presents itself and no matter who wins the title - Jenson or Rubens - I doubt there will be ill-feeling as I now judge and dismiss the rumors of dissatisfaction to be fiction. :s mokin:

You sure are one funny lil' guy. :rotflmao:

[Dave B]

You were a fan of NIGELS?!!!! You dont even KNOW him!!!
From here on in I shall only be supporting Webber, Kimi and Kovy; as they're the only drivers on the current grid who I've actually met. I assume that's how it works now. :dozey:

[Knock-on]

From here on in I shall only be supporting Webber, Kimi and Kovy; as they're the only drivers on the current grid who I've actually met. I assume that's how it works now. :dozey:

OK, that leaves me Webber, Lewis and if Hill comes back I have 3 :)

I did watch Mansell live at Silverstone on a couple of occassions though and am dissapointed that I'm not allowed to support him because I never actually met him :(

Jenson as well I have supported since his early days and even personally questioned one of the Directors at Williams when they let him go in favour of JPM but I suppose I have to stop supporting him as well

Oh well, how do I change my Signature. Damn your eyes Saint Devote :(

EDIT: Sorry but I forgot. I have Met Noige personally. Well, I say met, I was in the same restaurant as where he was staying at Donny and smiled at him. Does that count SD? Can I offer an opinion now?

[Saint Devote]

From here on in I shall only be supporting Webber, Kimi and Kovy; as they're the only drivers on the current grid who I've actually met. I assume that's how it works now. :dozey:

You are a journalist? English is your first language?

Then even though it is my second laguage, I can comprehend what I have written and your answer has no bearing on it.

Maybe you are just being disingenuous. :s mokin:

[Big Ben]

"Bareable"? In what way? :D

You as do others point fingers - but other than that you SAY nothing to even attempt to defend your point.

This just makes MY points stronger as a defacto result of y'all saying..... sweet fanny adams!

I ought to be the one rolling around on the floor laughing but I have good high standards. :s mokin:

bearable... if you couldn't figure that out by yourself.

I have a point? I was talking about your tone... It's pretentious and very annoying to be honest.

[Knock-on]

You are a journalist? English is your first language?

Then even though it is my second laguage, I can comprehend what I have written and your answer has no bearing on it.

Maybe you are just being disingenuous. :s mokin:

Your problem is you are too modest and unassuming my old son. ;)

[Robinho]

You were a fan of NIGELS?!!!! You dont even KNOW him!!!

God help those drivers you hate! The vitriol will likely melt our computer monitors!

Suffice to say that the relationships at Brawn is the result of what one finds in a battle unit in the army and is unlike, I would wager, anything at the other teams.

The Brawn team has not been formed, it has been FORGED, because these people not only trained together for a long time, but they went through a tough period and had to knuckle down and act as if they knew that they would be on the grid in Australia.

The team we see today and what it says, commanded so well by Ross and his able cohort Nick Fry, in my judgement is genuine in how it presents itself and no matter who wins the title - Jenson or Rubens - I doubt there will be ill-feeling as I now judge and dismiss the rumors of dissatisfaction to be fiction. :s mokin:

thats a pretty big assumption to make - how do you know i don't know "our nige" i have met him a couple of times, although i must admit i have not had more than a couple of minutes in his company.

i was a huge fan of his in his heyday, i have never been so gutted after an F1 race as i was after his blow out is Oz (except maybe knowing Senna had died) although perhaps that was more to do with the fact that he was racing Piquet and Prost who i wasn't much of a fan of at the time.

he was a great and gritty racer, but i don't find much else to go on from there, sorry if that offends (i'm sure Nigel really wouldn't be bothered)

if you'd been here for more than 5 minutes you'd know i don't "hate" any drivers - F1 is my sport and i have great respect for all the drivers for their skill at least, doesn't mean i have to like them or the way they go about their racing. i had a massive problem with Michael Schumacher by the end of his career (started out so excited by his prescence in Spa all those years ago), but i've always been able to discuss my issues without "vitriol" from behind a computer.

just so you know where i stand for future reference;

i grew up supporting Mclaren, Williams, Jordan, early Bennetton always having something for Ferrari (latterly not so much)

of the current drivers i root more for Jenson and Lewis than any others, although Hamilton has a long way to go to recover form the damage he's caused his reputaion in th last few years.

i don't much care for Nakajima, Piquet Jnr, Glock, most of the others i'm either not sure about yet, or am not epecially bothered either way - sorry if this messes with your assumptions on my hate. like i said somewhere else, if Rubens were fighting any other driver than Jenson this year i'd be rght behind him, but i'd love to see Jenson come through this year

[ioan]

Your problem is you are too modest and unassuming my old son. ;)

:laugh: :up:

[Garry Walker]

We would like Garry to confirm this since he has the only nice detector around here that's working properly. I think I have fuel adjusting issues.
What do you want me to confirm?


in my judgement is genuine in how it presents itself and no matter who wins the title - Jenson or Rubens - I doubt there will be ill-feeling as I now judge and dismiss the rumors of dissatisfaction to be fiction. :s mokin:

You have no idea how competitive people work then and F1 drivers are about as competitive as you can get.

[Saint Devote]

thats a pretty big assumption to make - how do you know i don't know "our nige" i have met him a couple of times, although i must admit i have not had more than a couple of minutes in his company.

i was a huge fan of his in his heyday, i have never been so gutted after an F1 race as i was after his blow out is Oz (except maybe knowing Senna had died) although perhaps that was more to do with the fact that he was racing Piquet and Prost who i wasn't much of a fan of at the time.

he was a great and gritty racer, but i don't find much else to go on from there, sorry if that offends (i'm sure Nigel really wouldn't be bothered)

if you'd been here for more than 5 minutes you'd know i don't "hate" any drivers - F1 is my sport and i have great respect for all the drivers for their skill at least, doesn't mean i have to like them or the way they go about their racing. i had a massive problem with Michael Schumacher by the end of his career (started out so excited by his prescence in Spa all those years ago), but i've always been able to discuss my issues without "vitriol" from behind a computer.

just so you know where i stand for future reference;

i grew up supporting Mclaren, Williams, Jordan, early Bennetton always having something for Ferrari (latterly not so much)

of the current drivers i root more for Jenson and Lewis than any others, although Hamilton has a long way to go to recover form the damage he's caused his reputaion in th last few years.

i don't much care for Nakajima, Piquet Jnr, Glock, most of the others i'm either not sure about yet, or am not epecially bothered either way - sorry if this messes with your assumptions on my hate. like i said somewhere else, if Rubens were fighting any other driver than Jenson this year i'd be rght behind him, but i'd love to see Jenson come through this year

Fair enough :s mokin:

[Saint Devote]

You have no idea how competitive people work then and F1 drivers are about as competitive as you can get.

Competitiveness has nothing to do with it. My post on the team is accurate.

You are welcome to your view.

[Saint Devote]

After ROUND 6 - Monaco Grand Prix, Button had a 16 point lead over Barrichello and a 27 point lead over Vettel.

After ROUND 13 - Italian Grand Prix, Button has a 14 point lead over Barrichello and a 26 point lead over Vettel.

The more things change the more things stay the same! :-]

[wedge]

Competitiveness has nothing to do with it. My post on the team is accurate.

You are welcome to your view.

So why is we've seen the ugly side of Rubens "blah, blah, blah; you're not gonna look at my data" Barrichello?

[Saint Devote]

So why is we've seen the ugly side of Rubens "blah, blah, blah; you're not gonna look at my data" Barrichello?

Rubens is an emotional spirit. And I think at the time it was frustration at his performance and how things were working.

It turns out that he had trouble with the feel of braking in the Brawn and it was only in the last few races that the team managed to get it right for him.

Emotional people such as Rubens - including the effect on him the way he was treated as a second class citizen by Ferrari as demanded by Schumacher - say things in the heat of the moment.

But it is their actions that must be judged and it is clear that Ross is an excellent judge of charater and an understading boss.

The bottom line being that sure Rubens and Jenson will compete aganst each other - and it is a compliment to the team that two teammates are the rivals leading the championship - but they do so with a fair and no quarter given attitude.

But in the end, they remember, and they do mention it, often, the struggle that forged this team. That does not breed acrimony. It breeds the sort of sportsmanship that allows rivals to shake hands and go for drink in the bar afterwards.

Let the era of Senna and Schumacher be something of the past. It was always ugly.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe Rubens is getting e-mails from Ferrari on how to set up his car, and he won't share the e-mails with bunsen. Now that would make the bunsen really hot under the collar. :p :

[Saint Devote]

Maybe Rubens is getting e-mails from Ferrari on how to set up his car, and he won't share the e-mails with bunsen. Now that would make the bunsen really hot under the collar. :p :

BunSen :D getting hot under the collar?! Perish the thought.

I heard Rubens likes to stand next to him before grands prix in very hot weather in order to cool down :eek:

Ferrari - in a manner of speaking I guess IS asisting BarryCello - is it not Massa, following his "crowning", that is coaching Rubens?

As we discuss here there is plotting afoot between the two Brazilians.

[wedge]

Emotional people such as Rubens - including the effect on him the way he was treated as a second class citizen by Ferrari as demanded by Schumacher - say things in the heat of the moment.

But it is their actions that must be judged and it is clear that Ross is an excellent judge of charater and an understading boss.

The bottom line being that sure Rubens and Jenson will compete aganst each other - and it is a compliment to the team that two teammates are the rivals leading the championship - but they do so with a fair and no quarter given attitude.

So why is it there are people happy to make excuses for Rubens and yet Alonso's in 2007 - claiming he found the initial sixth tenths and Hamilton copying his set up - is regarded as cry baby?


But in the end, they remember, and they do mention it, often, the struggle that forged this team. That does not breed acrimony. It breeds the sort of sportsmanship that allows rivals to shake hands and go for drink in the bar afterwards.

Let the era of Senna and Schumacher be something of the past. It was always ugly.

After Schumi tried to take JV at Jerez 1997, they both partied together afterwards.

[Saint Devote]

Your problem is you are too modest and unassuming my old son. ;)

:D Well we all have our virtues :p :

[Saint Devote]

So why is it there are people happy to make excuses for Rubens and yet Alonso's in 2007 - claiming he found the initial sixth tenths and Hamilton copying his set up - is regarded as cry baby?

After Schumi tried to take JV at Jerez 1997, they both partied together afterwards.

Dont you think the situation of Alonso at Mclaren was very different compared to Brawn?

I would say that Barrichello saw a situation he thought had arisen again for him and reacted - he was reassured by the team and a few weeks ago the problem was solved.

Alonso arrived in a situation where the team WAS setup to favor Hamilton and Ron Dennis totally mismanaged the issue. He treated them as two mature champions and the team continued to favor Hamilton.

Then the situation exploded. Those who claimed Alonso to be a cry baby misjudged the situation and him.

They forget how young Alonso is and that he achieved so much - a double world champion. The sort of pressure one feels when placed in an extraordinary position at a very young age can lead to frustrations and reaction that should be forgiven.

The situation with Schumacher and Villeneuve between them is not important - the import is in the objective act that occurred when Schumacher tried to do what he did to Damon. The FIA rightly threw Schumacher out of the championship - I think these days he would have been thrown out of f1.

[wedge]

Dont you think the situation of Alonso at Mclaren was very different compared to Brawn?

I would say that Barrichello saw a situation he thought had arisen again for him and reacted - he was reassured by the team and a few weeks ago the problem was solved.

Bot Alonso and Barrichello want to win WDC.

After the 1992 Australian GP Senna told Mansell "now you know why I'm such a bas***d"

Don't you think that involves dirty tricks of some kind? After all, Mansell played the same "childish" games with Patrese as Piquet did to Mansell?

Alonso was adamant Hamilton was using his set ups and sulked. Rubens doesn't like the idea of Button looking at his set ups. What's the difference?


Alonso arrived in a situation where the team WAS setup to favor Hamilton and Ron Dennis totally mismanaged the issue.He treated them as two mature champions and the team continued to favor Hamilton.

Proof? McLaren wanted to run an equal team, drivers with equal chances. If McLaren favoured Hamilton then why did hinder Hamliton's chance to win at Monaco 2007?


They forget how young Alonso is and that he achieved so much - a double world champion. The sort of pressure one feels when placed in an extraordinary position at a very young age can lead to frustrations and reaction that should be forgiven.

Blatant cheating by using Ferrari data and blackmailling your boss should be forgiven?


The situation with Schumacher and Villeneuve between them is not important

Then why mention it?


But in the end, they remember, and they do mention it, often, the struggle that forged this team. That does not breed acrimony. It breeds the sort of sportsmanship that allows rivals to shake hands and go for drink in the bar afterwards.

[Malbec]

Board monitor please allow me:

Mr Leo - how can you insult an f1 driver like that - regardless of who it is? But especially Nigel Mansell!

Nigel is a driver that drove his heart out for his fans [particularly his British fans] as well as himself and his team.

You ought to apologize to Nigel - incidentally one of the most successful f1 drivers ever. :vader:

There are very very few F1 drivers I lack respect for and Nigel is one of them.

Presumably you know all about Nigel and his treatment of Derek/Paul Warwick in F3000. I'm surprised anyone who knows about Nigel's involvement in that affair could possibly view him as anything other than scum.

[ClarkFan]

Maybe it was a slow news day at Murdoch Towers? :p
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner in the "What Is the Real Reason for this Story" contest!

:p

Seriously, some absolute trash gets printed/posted/aired under the label of "motorsports journalism." I suppose that since the stories aren't about issues of vital import (wars/disasters/depressions/et al), writers can get away with about anything, and since they can that is what they do. Far easier to make something up than to research a real story. For comparable examples, read Mark Twain's account of Nevada Territory journalism in "Roughing It."

ClarkFan

[Saint Devote]

There are very very few F1 drivers I lack respect for and Nigel is one of them.

Presumably you know all about Nigel and his treatment of Derek/Paul Warwick in F3000. I'm surprised anyone who knows about Nigel's involvement in that affair could possibly view him as anything other than scum.

I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to.

[Malbec]

I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to.

Nigel co-ran a team called Mansell Madgwick motorsport in F3000 that ran Paul Warwick. He died when a wishbone failed on his car at Oulton Park. I'm not keen to go into details on a public forum but Mansell's running of the team and his attempts to distance himself from what happened whilst extracting money from the Warwick family after was highly distasteful to say the least. I've got far more respect for what Briatore and the Piquets did at Singapore 2008 than Mansell during that episode.

I've always thought it said a lot that admiration for Nigel Mansell tends to increase the further away people are from him.

[Saint Devote]

Nigel co-ran a team called Mansell Madgwick motorsport in F3000 that ran Paul Warwick. He died when a wishbone failed on his car at Oulton Park. I'm not keen to go into details on a public forum but Mansell's running of the team and his attempts to distance himself from what happened whilst extracting money from the Warwick family after was highly distasteful to say the least. I've got far more respect for what Briatore and the Piquets did at Singapore 2008 than Mansell during that episode.

I've always thought it said a lot that admiration for Nigel Mansell tends to increase the further away people are from him.


I am aware of the Mansell Madgwick tie but not the alleged incident you refer to.

[Malbec]

I am aware of the Mansell Madgwick tie but not the alleged incident you refer to.

If you're as close to the Brawn team as you allude to then you should start asking your racing links about that incident. You may well find yourself a bit embarrassed about your blind admiration of Nigel.

[Knock-on]

Alonso arrived in a situation where the team WAS setup to favor Hamilton and Ron Dennis totally mismanaged the issue. He treated them as two mature champions and the team continued to favor Hamilton.

Then the situation exploded. Those who claimed Alonso to be a cry baby misjudged the situation and him.

I'm sorry but there was no evidence of this.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Nigel co-ran a team called Mansell Madgwick motorsport in F3000 that ran Paul Warwick. He died when a wishbone failed on his car at Oulton Park. I'm not keen to go into details on a public forum but Mansell's running of the team and his attempts to distance himself from what happened whilst extracting money from the Warwick family after was highly distasteful to say the least. I've got far more respect for what Briatore and the Piquets did at Singapore 2008 than Mansell during that episode.

I've always thought it said a lot that admiration for Nigel Mansell tends to increase the further away people are from him.

I've heard about Mansell's behaviour around that time. He doesn't come out of it well, but I'd stop short of labelling him scum. He just seems to me like a very difficult man.

[Mark]

I'm sorry but there was no evidence of this.

I don't agree with that either. The fact is Alonso was announced at McLaren months before the prospect of Hamilton going to the team emerged. Alonso will have assumed he would be absolute number 1, especially as he probably knew Kimi was on his way to Ferrari.

Even when Hamilton was announced, well what trouble could a rookie driver possibly give a world champion?!

[wedge]

The fact is Alonso was announced at McLaren months before the prospect of Hamilton going to the team emerged. Alonso will have assumed he would be absolute number 1, especially as he probably knew Kimi was on his way to Ferrari.

No it wasn't. Hamilton knew he would be racing for McLaren in September 2006 and wasn't made public until a month or so later.

McLaren signed Alonso near the off-season because Alonso/Briatore were unsure of Renault's future in F1 since Renault supremo Carlos Ghosn was a regarded as a shrewd cost cutter.

[Mark]

No it wasn't. Hamilton knew he would be racing for McLaren in September 2006 and wasn't made public until a month or so later.

McLaren signed Alonso near the off-season because Alonso/Briatore were unsure of Renault's future in F1 since Renault supremo Carlos Ghosn was a regarded as a shrewd cost cutter.

Yes Hamilton was signed in September 2006 but Alonso was announced at McLaren before the 2006 season had even started.

[wedge]

Sorry, I had dates mixed up. Forgot what year Ghosn took over Renault presidency

[ioan]

I don't agree with that either. The fact is Alonso was announced at McLaren months before the prospect of Hamilton going to the team emerged. Alonso will have assumed he would be absolute number 1, especially as he probably knew Kimi was on his way to Ferrari.

Exactly.

[Saint Devote]

Well boo-hoo that was too bad for Alonso.

There are two types of world champion - those who are frightened of having a competitive teammate - Alonso and Schumacher and, those that have iron self-esteem and do care who the other driver is - Raikkonen and Hamilton.

Give me the Raikkonens any day.

[F1boat]

Well boo-hoo that was too bad for Alonso.

There are two types of world champion - those who are frightened of having a competitive teammate - Alonso and Schumacher and, those that have iron self-esteem and do care who the other driver is - Raikkonen and Hamilton.

Give me the Raikkonens any day.

Alonso - 2 WDC
MS - 7

vs
Rai - 1
Ham - 1

IN TOTAL: 9-2

Nah, I'll take MS.

[Triumph]

I think you need to work a time factor into your equation.

:)

[truefan72]

Alonso arrived in a situation where the team WAS setup to favor Hamilton and Ron Dennis totally mismanaged the issue. He treated them as two mature champions and the team continued to favor Hamilton.

Then the situation exploded. Those who claimed Alonso to be a cry baby misjudged the situation and him.

They forget how young Alonso is and that he achieved so much - a double world champion. The sort of pressure one feels when placed in an extraordinary position at a very young age can lead to frustrations and reaction that should be forgiven.

that's one way to look at it

or just that Hamilton proved to be awfully quick and expertly in his driving, so much so that by the time they got to canada the team could not hold him back anymore, and yes, he was leading the championship!
All that while Alonso enjoyed clear #1 status in the team and Lewis was told not to pass him in Monaco.

So what did they do once they got to Canada? Hamilton won 2 races in a row and 2 later on, while Alonso only won 2 more races, and save the total incompetence of the Mclaren team in China, would have won the WDC. Or his own mistake in Brazil.

What did Alosno do, he bitched and moaned, complained to anyone who would listen, became frosty with the team, blackmailed the team, then after the hearing about stepeneygate was closed, stabbed his own team behind the back and got them a $100 mil. penalty. Forced the FIa to bring monitors into the mclaren paddock. Still the teams provided him with a race winning car and fair chance at the WDC.

So those who say alonso was a crybaby were being fairly polite IMO.
I hope he has learned his lesson and matured a bit more.

[truefan72]

Alonso - 2 WDC
MS - 7

vs
Rai - 1
Ham - 1

IN TOTAL: 9-2

Nah, I'll take MS.

if any drivers were give the kind of rope and unparalleled team commitment to the absolute detriment of their teammate that FA and MSC got along with driving the best cars on the grid, then I too would expect them to be double world champs and Rubens might have even been a 4x world champ.

They are all great champs, but the fact remains that MSC never got tested by his teammate and made darn sure he never would. Alonso didn't either at Renault and when Fisi seemed a bit competitive, he was known to throw hiss fits and complaints. when he finally got a true test, he imploded.

That's one small reason why I would have loved to see MSC back this year.Apart form seeing the meister do his thing, It would have been interesting to observe how he would have coped with a teammate on equal footing.

[F1boat]

Truefan, if I was a team boss I would have also preferred one strong driver. Nothing is worse to me than to lose it like McLaren did in 2007.

[ioan]

...and Rubens might have even been a 4x world champ.

Yeah, sure! What else?!
Care to tell us how many times Rubens out qualified MS in any season they both drove for Ferrari?
And don't tell me that they hold him back during qualifying too.

[ioan]

Fortunately in this day and age there are so many good drivers on the grid, teams cannot afford to just have one good driver. The quality has improved IMO and the days of a number one driver in a team seems to be turning into a thing of the past... :)

You should tell that to Heiki. I bet he would be happy to know about this sudden turn of fortunes. ;)

[DexDexter]

You should tell that to Heiki. I bet he would be happy to know about this sudden turn of fortunes. ;)

That is true, the fact is that Heikki has usually got all the updates later than Hammy and has been forced (according to him the team decides q3 fuel loads) to run heavier in q3. I know he would not beat Hamilton even if they had totally equal treatment but still...

[ioan]

Sudden turn??

I'm yet to see him prove himself at Mclaren after 2 dissappointing seasons. One race win which was off the back of Massa's retirement, and a handfull of podiums. How is it that he manages on occassion to outqualify Lewis but lose it completely in the race? Perhaps someone sneaks into parc ferme during the night and puts all the good bits back on lewis's car ready for race day... ;)

I'm glad to see that your sudden arrival into this discussion is not seen by your good self as trolling, only when I do it. Is that correct?.. :p

BTW I really like Heikki and hope he does well for the rest of the season..

As far as I can see you have nothing that proves that Heiki was given equal status with Lewy at Mclaren.

As posted by DexDexter above, McLaren are treating Heiki like a clear number two, which clearly contradicts your impossible stance.

[ioan]

Same old, same old.... Lewis does get parts quicker than Heikki but there are plenty of occassions where they have equal machinery. The only time teams do not give drivers equal machinery is because of manufacturing time in between races is can be short. Of course a WDC is going to be first to get a new component. Kimi used KERS before Massa this season for example. Then Kimi di not use it due to malfunctions, however no body here has claimed unfair advantages with the drivers in this case..

The fact of the matter is, whenever an ill favoured driver happens to do better over a period than his teammate, people on here cry "unfair, unfair"... The fact that it is Lewis Hamilton, means biased people like yourself will look for some way of discrediting him in some way. It really does show that you are very fickle in your approach to F1, for example the way even Mclaren fans on here are defending Kimi Raikkonen from people who preach about being Ferrari fans.. You don't even support or defend a driver in your own team.. Its laughable

So they sometimes give them equal machinery. Wow what an evolution. :D
What about equal strategy, like not letting Heiki drive around with a tanker?!
I bet you will find a way to distort reality to explain this one too.

[DexDexter]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Heikki would beat Lewis in an equal car but I know, based on his on comments, that he doesn't decide q3 fuel loads. And surprise surprise, 9 out of 10 times he is heavier which is an undestandable strategy since Heikki could well mess up Lewis' race if he started in front of him at some races.

[wedge]

What about equal strategy, like not letting Heiki drive around with a tanker?!


Heikki had the better strategy. On paper he should've beat Lewis at Monza. One stop is generally better than two stopping round Monza.

[DexDexter]

Heikki had the better strategy. On paper he should've beat Lewis at Monza. One stop is generally better than two stopping round Monza.

I agree but the point is he is not allowed to choose his q3 fuel load.


Link which confirms that. In Finnish (sorry)
http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/arkisto.shtml/arkistot/f1/2009/09/954154

[wedge]

Why should qualy fuel load be an excuse?

Valencia - Heikki had more fuel and should've pit passed Lewis on paper. Never happened. Had the scenario had been reversed no doubt Lewis would've pit passed Heikki.

[SGWilko]

Why should qualy fuel load be an excuse?

Valencia - Heikki had more fuel and should've pit passed Lewis on paper. Never happened. Had the scenario had been reversed no doubt Lewis would've pit passed Heikki.

I think in Heikki's defense, he had the wrong tyres on for the start, and got mullered with no traction at the start.

But that is always the issue with these bonehead tyre regs......

[SGWilko]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ioan]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, no, no! Stay with us, stay with us! :D ;)

[DexDexter]

Why should qualy fuel load be an excuse?

Valencia - Heikki had more fuel and should've pit passed Lewis on paper. Never happened. Had the scenario had been reversed no doubt Lewis would've pit passed Heikki.

By making the second driver quali heavier you make sure he is not messing things at the start and will not qualify in front of the lead driver. Nobody is suggesting that Heikki is anywhere near as good as Hammy, whatever the equipment given is.

[wedge]

By making the second driver quali heavier you make sure he is not messing things at the start and will not qualify in front of the lead driver. Nobody is suggesting that Heikki is anywhere near as good as Hammy, whatever the equipment given is.

Silly excuses

Vettel had more fuel than Webber at Silverstone, had pole and destroyed the field on race day.

Rubens had more fuel at Monza than Button and beat him.

[Saint Devote]

that's one way to look at it

or just that Hamilton proved to be awfully quick and expertly in his driving, so much so that by the time they got to canada the team could not hold him back anymore, and yes, he was leading the championship!
All that while Alonso enjoyed clear #1 status in the team and Lewis was told not to pass him in Monaco.

So what did they do once they got to Canada? Hamilton won 2 races in a row and 2 later on, while Alonso only won 2 more races, and save the total incompetence of the Mclaren team in China, would have won the WDC. Or his own mistake in Brazil.

What did Alosno do, he bitched and moaned, complained to anyone who would listen, became frosty with the team, blackmailed the team, then after the hearing about stepeneygate was closed, stabbed his own team behind the back and got them a $100 mil. penalty. Forced the FIa to bring monitors into the mclaren paddock. Still the teams provided him with a race winning car and fair chance at the WDC.

So those who say alonso was a crybaby were being fairly polite IMO.
I hope he has learned his lesson and matured a bit more.

The Mclaren team is one team that can control its drivers. Do you notice none of its drivers look scruffy? No long hair or beards including stubble is allowed. It is the most disciplined team in racing alongside Roger Penske's team.

I am not going to defend the methods used by Alonso, but if you have ever been in command of young people then you will understand that mature deliberation found in some at a young age is mostly absent or found in men in their 30's.

It was Ron Dennis who chose not to manage the situation and it cost them a championship to which Raikkonen said thank you.

But to call Alonso a cry baby is not fair - he is still young but back then.... The pressure being the youngest champion and a two time champion at that, to enter a team he recognized as the best in f1 and his dream.

But to discover that Hamilton, at the time someone that had not even won a grand prix is favored by the chief and then how the seaon unfolded - uncontrolled by Dennis. Alonso reacted. Be kind to him he was very young.

There is a reason in the army why 22 year olds are not battalion commanders.

Michael Schumacher, a team comtrol freak if ever there was one, would never hhave accepted such a situation - both Alonso and Schumacher are the same.

[DexDexter]

Silly excuses

Vettel had more fuel than Webber at Silverstone, had pole and destroyed the field on race day.

Rubens had more fuel at Monza than Button and beat him.

You obviously don't want to see the point I am making. It's not an excuse, it's a reflection of Heikki's number two status at Mclaren that he cannot choose his own fuel load. That was the point, I am not trying to give excuses about Heikki's speed or lack of it really.

[F1boat]

The Mclaren team is one team that can control its drivers. Do you notice none of its drivers look scruffy? No long hair or beards including stubble is allowed. It is the most disciplined team in racing alongside Roger Penske's team.

I am not going to defend the methods used by Alonso, but if you have ever been in command of young people then you will understand that mature deliberation found in some at a young age is mostly absent or found in men in their 30's.

It was Ron Dennis who chose not to manage the situation and it cost them a championship to which Raikkonen said thank you.

But to call Alonso a cry baby is not fair - he is still young but back then.... The pressure being the youngest champion and a two time champion at that, to enter a team he recognized as the best in f1 and his dream.

But to discover that Hamilton, at the time someone that had not even won a grand prix is favored by the chief and then how the seaon unfolded - uncontrolled by Dennis. Alonso reacted. Be kind to him he was very young.

There is a reason in the army why 22 year olds are not battalion commanders.

Michael Schumacher, a team comtrol freak if ever there was one, would never hhave accepted such a situation - both Alonso and Schumacher are the same.
Very well said.

[Knock-on]

So they sometimes give them equal machinery. Wow what an evolution. :D
What about equal strategy, like not letting Heiki drive around with a tanker?!
I bet you will find a way to distort reality to explain this one too.

Usually they pit on consecutive laps don't they which by your assumption means HK has 1 more lap fuel.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong but in Q3, isn't the idea to qualify as far up the grid as possible with the most fuel?

If HK can hang onto Lewis then he can jump him at the pit stop.

Oh, sorry, I used the IF word.

[Big Ben]

There does seem to be this assumption that Hamilton was favoured from the off at Mclaren. Sure Ron Dennis had a soft spot for Lewis due to the situation which brought him to the Mclaren team, but to favour him before he had even won a race sounds ridiculous to me. Mclaren paid alot of money for Alonso and I just can't see why they would hamper him because some upstart was eager to show his skill.

There were signs that Lewis was being held back, for instance Monaco, and the strategy in Hungary where he was asked to let Alonso by during qualifying. He was frustrated in Monaco and ignored the team orders in Hungary. In my opinion he was far too fast to be a number 2 and his determination and speed meant he was difficult to hold back. The team had to start allowing him to become competitive with FA, and this is why the season collapsed. A similar thing happened at Renault in 2006 when Fisi out qualified FA, and he accused the team of favouring Fisi because Fred was about to leave the team. In fact he smashed his crash helmet at the back of the garage in front of waiting journalists.

We have seen this season with Ruben's how the strain and pressure can get to a driver when he is not getting the results he is expecting. Drivers start to find excuses as to why they are under performing compared to their team mate, and ultimately this is down to the team to manage this. The 2007 season at Mclaren fell apart purely due to bad people management, not favouritism IMO... :)

you should go and check again because you seem to forget things you probably don't want to remember like the fact that in Monaco the team didn`t want to waste a 1-2 (I´m sure the brits have no doubt that he would have passed even if it was Monaco and FA was going faster) or that the entire weekend LH was nowhere near FA or that in Hungary it was FA´s turn to have the upper hand (you know... those silly burning fuel laps)... so forgive me if I don't take your objectivity for granted.

[wedge]

You obviously don't want to see the point I am making. It's not an excuse, it's a reflection of Heikki's number two status at Mclaren that he cannot choose his own fuel load. That was the point, I am not trying to give excuses about Heikki's speed or lack of it really.

Yes they are excuses.

Has Heikki made full use of the car given to him regardless of fuel loads/strategy?


you should go and check again because you seem to forget things you probably don't want to remember like the fact that in Monaco the team didn`t want to waste a 1-2 (I´m sure the brits have no doubt that he would have passed even if it was Monaco and FA was going faster) or that the entire weekend LH was nowhere near FA or that in Hungary it was FA´s turn to have the upper hand (you know... those silly burning fuel laps)... so forgive me if I don't take your objectivity for granted.

At Monaco Hamilton was brought in much earlier than had been anticipated for his second pit stop, apparently to pre-empt SC.

[DexDexter]

Yes they are excuses.

Has Heikki made full use of the car given to him regardless of fuel loads/strategy?



At Monaco Hamilton was brought in much earlier than had been anticipated for his second pit stop, apparently to pre-empt SC.

No, Heikki has been the biggest underachiever of the season, he should have done a lot more. Still there are two FACTS: 1. he hasn't got the freedom to choose q3 fuel load and 2. he gets performance updates later than Hammy. So he is the number two driver and deserves to be that. In fact he doesn't deserve the second Mclaren seat with his performances. I'm not a fan of him. What more can I say? Anyway, this is offtopic so....

[Knock-on]

No, Heikki has been the biggest underachiever of the season, he should have done a lot more. Still there are two FACTS: 1. he hasn't got the freedom to choose q3 fuel load and 2. he gets performance updates later than Hammy. So he is the number two driver and deserves to be that. In fact he doesn't deserve the second Mclaren seat with his performances. I'm not a fan of him. What more can I say? Anyway, this is offtopic so....

I don't think anyone will really argue that Heikki is number 2 at McLaren. However, that is really because his poor performance puts him there as you say rather than a number 1 / number 2 strategy.

If HK picks up the pace and starts challenging Lewis, I have no doubt he would be allowed to get on with it, which is different to what people mean by a #1 driver strategy.

[Big Ben]

I don't think anyone will really argue that Heikki is number 2 at McLaren. However, that is really because his poor performance puts him there as you say rather than a number 1 / number 2 strategy.

If HK picks up the pace and starts challenging Lewis, I have no doubt he would be allowed to get on with it, which is different to what people mean by a #1 driver strategy.

I have no doubt he wouldn´t be allowed

[Knock-on]

I have no doubt he wouldn´t be allowed

Obviously that is your opinion but there is nothing to suggest you are correct.

Looking at Lewis's start at McLaren, it would have seemed that the WDC got the #1 status and the Rookie have to defer to his team leader. OK, Alonso did get the preferential fuel strategy for the first few races but that was because he was the dogs bollocks and faster than Lewis. However, when Lewis got up to Alonso's speed and indeed, started beating him, the gloves came off.

Now, we all know that Alonso didn't like this, complained, got told to get on with it, got upset, tried to blackmail his boss etc to such an extent that by the end of the season, there was really only 1 driver at McLaren.

The history shows though that the drivers have always been allowed to compete.

[ioan]

Usually they pit on consecutive laps don't they

No they don't usually pit on consecutive laps.
And even if it was like that 1 lap worth of fuel is worth anywhere between 1 and 2 tenths per lap.

[ioan]

I don't think anyone will really argue that Heikki is number 2 at McLaren. However, that is really because his poor performance puts him there as you say rather than a number 1 / number 2 strategy.

The problem isn't why they treat him like dirt, it's the fact that they treat him like that.
people always complained how Rubens didn't had the right to race MS, yet Ferrari never sent Rubens out with the intent of impeding him to outqualify Schumacher.

[Knock-on]

The problem isn't why they treat him like dirt, it's the fact that they treat him like that.
people always complained how Rubens didn't had the right to race MS, yet Ferrari never sent Rubens out with the intent of impeding him to outqualify Schumacher.

No, they just sent MS out nice and light while Rubens backed the field up and MS gets out ahead of the pack after he pits ;)

OK, lets put it another way and pretend you are the team boss. The ideal strategy is to carry 15 laps of fuel in Q3.

Do you:

a. Give the optimum strategy to the best driver as he represents the logical option for getting most points.

b. Give it to the weaker one because you don't want to be seen as being mean to an underperforming driver.

They are not sending Kovy out to compromise his race like Ferrari used to. They are just making a logical choice about what is best for the team.

[ioan]

No, they just sent MS out nice and light while Rubens backed the field up and MS gets out ahead of the pack after he pits ;)

OK, lets put it another way and pretend you are the team boss. The ideal strategy is to carry 15 laps of fuel in Q3.

Do you:

a. Give the optimum strategy to the best driver as he represents the logical option for getting most points.

b. Give it to the weaker one because you don't want to be seen as being mean to an underperforming driver.

They are not sending Kovy out to compromise his race like Ferrari used to. They are just making a logical choice about what is best for the team.

You give the same strategy to both of them, whoever is 2nd pits one lap earlier. Voila.

[ioan]

Or you give them two different strategies so if by chance something happens in the opening laps due to a safety car, or simply the other doesn't work out, the driver fueled longer has a better chance of finishing in the points should plan A fail... Well thats my take anyway.... :)

Trying to outsmart Fortuna is the worst strategy there is.

[Big Ben]

Obviously that is your opinion but there is nothing to suggest you are correct.

Looking at Lewis's start at McLaren, it would have seemed that the WDC got the #1 status and the Rookie have to defer to his team leader. OK, Alonso did get the preferential fuel strategy for the first few races but that was because he was the dogs bollocks and faster than Lewis. However, when Lewis got up to Alonso's speed and indeed, started beating him, the gloves came off.

Now, we all know that Alonso didn't like this, complained, got told to get on with it, got upset, tried to blackmail his boss etc to such an extent that by the end of the season, there was really only 1 driver at McLaren.

The history shows though that the drivers have always been allowed to compete.

Of course it´s my opinion...I never pretended it´s something else.

It is also my opinion that it was a stupid thing to do that... to favor LH over FA. And I have the results as facts to back that.

IMO FA is better than LH now and he surely was back then... and having that in mind even if somehow, miraculously HK would improve enough to challenge LH, McLaren will back LH and keep the finn to collect as many points as possible behind the star.

So I guess the final conclusion of your post is that your opinion is the correct one?

[truefan72]

Truefan, if I was a team boss I would have also preferred one strong driver. Nothing is worse to me than to lose it like McLaren did in 2007.

or nothing is better to win both the WCC and have a 1-2 finish in the WDC
listen,1 or 2 mistakes by Lewis and the team cost them the championship and they were miles ahead of the competition in the constructors title.

This year Brawn is going to win Both titles and the fight is going to cm down between the 2 drivers. I see nothing wrong in equal status in a team. It is never a hindrance to winning championships as senna prost proved it back in the day.

I dare say that if Ferrari had employed equal status, they still would have won the 5 championships that they did, since they had the best cars anyway. And MSC just might have won 4 of those 5.

i prefer 2 strong drivers in my team. With millions f dollars at stake, it serves nobody to have a team like Ferrari in massa's absence. I driver winning races and the other finishing dead last. BTW Ferrari have 2 strong drivers and I don';t see it hurting them at all.

[truefan72]

There does seem to be this assumption that Hamilton was favoured from the off at Mclaren. Sure Ron Dennis had a soft spot for Lewis due to the situation which brought him to the Mclaren team, but to favour him before he had even won a race sounds ridiculous to me. Mclaren paid alot of money for Alonso and I just can't see why they would hamper him because some upstart was eager to show his skill.

There were signs that Lewis was being held back, for instance Monaco, and the strategy in Hungary where he was asked to let Alonso by during qualifying. He was frustrated in Monaco and ignored the team orders in Hungary. In my opinion he was far too fast to be a number 2 and his determination and speed meant he was difficult to hold back. The team had to start allowing him to become competitive with FA, and this is why the season collapsed. A similar thing happened at Renault in 2006 when Fisi out qualified FA, and he accused the team of favouring Fisi because Fred was about to leave the team. In fact he smashed his crash helmet at the back of the garage in front of waiting journalists.

We have seen this season with Ruben's how the strain and pressure can get to a driver when he is not getting the results he is expecting. Drivers start to find excuses as to why they are under performing compared to their team mate, and ultimately this is down to the team to manage this. The 2007 season at Mclaren fell apart purely due to bad people management, not favouritism IMO... :)

It is funny how you forget that due to Hamilton's consistency and excellent racing, he was leading the WDC for most of his time alongside Alonso, so the decision to give the WDC leader equal standing by the time they arrived at Canada was made, before that he was held back and Alonso was given the preferred race strategy, lighter car and #1 status. But Lewis proved to be a worthy adversary. Those of you who argue that Alonso should have been treated with #1 status in deference to Hamilton DESPITE that fact that Hamilton was leading the WDC are just plain wrong or don't understand racing and F1.

[Saint Devote]

It is funny how you forget that due to Hamilton's consistency and excellent racing, he was leading the WDC for most of his time alongside Alonso, so the decision to give the WDC leader equal standing by the time they arrived at Canada was made, before that he was held back and Alonso was given the preferred race strategy, lighter car and #1 status. But Lewis proved to be a worthy adversary. Those of you who argue that Alonso should have been treated with #1 status in deference to Hamilton DESPITE that fact that Hamilton was leading the WDC are just plain wrong or don't understand racing and F1.

The problems began from day 1 and it was during the Australian Grand Prix weekend that Alonso first muttered about the focus on Hamilton to the Spanish press.

It deteriorated from there and it was this mismanagement by Dennis, his misreading of the two drivers that ultimately cost Mclaren its championship in 2007.

Sure it required a driver of Raikkonen's ability to win, but it remains Mclaren's own fault for losing in 2007.

It is the task of the team principle to enforce discipline and not allow immature drivers to run amok.

You cannot look back, cherry picking situations to suit your argument and that is what you have done.

[Big Ben]

It is funny how you forget that due to Hamilton's consistency and excellent racing, he was leading the WDC for most of his time alongside Alonso, so the decision to give the WDC leader equal standing by the time they arrived at Canada was made, before that he was held back and Alonso was given the preferred race strategy, lighter car and #1 status. But Lewis proved to be a worthy adversary. Those of you who argue that Alonso should have been treated with #1 status in deference to Hamilton DESPITE that fact that Hamilton was leading the WDC are just plain wrong or don't understand racing and F1.

Your idol lost a 17 points advantage in 2 races... that's more than enough proof that you are the one who doesn't understand much.

[DexDexter]

I don't think anyone will really argue that Heikki is number 2 at McLaren. However, that is really because his poor performance puts him there as you say rather than a number 1 / number 2 strategy.

If HK picks up the pace and starts challenging Lewis, I have no doubt he would be allowed to get on with it, which is different to what people mean by a #1 driver strategy.

Thanks! I was just trying to establish that he is the number two driver and currently they have that policy at Mclaren whatever the reason is.


Or you give them two different strategies so if by chance something happens in the opening laps due to a safety car, or simply the other doesn't work out, the driver fueled longer has a better chance of finishing in the points should plan A fail... Well thats my take anyway.... :)

Yep, but in Mclaren's case, the only time Heikki is able to challenge Hamilton is in q3, since he seems to be a very quick man over one single lap. And what do they do? Fuel him heavier, often considerably. Well, next year, with possibly (lets hope so) Kimi onboard, I'm sure the treatment will be equal. Edit: And this not about Hamilton, I rate him very highly.

[ArrowsFA1]

Those of you who argue that Alonso should have been treated with #1 status in deference to Hamilton DESPITE that fact that Hamilton was leading the WDC are just plain wrong or don't understand racing and F1.
I'd compare the Alonso/Hamilton matchup with Piquet/Mansell at Williams. In both cases a WDC arrived at a new team expecting to have #1 status. Perhaps it wasn't written into any contract, but by virtue of being WDC Piquet/Alonso felt they warranted that status, and did not expect to be challenged by their team-mate. When the challenge came they expected the team management to deal with it. That neither Frank Williams nor Ron Dennis dealt with it in the way Piquet and Alonso would have wanted is when there were problems.

Admittedly the McLaren situation blew up in ways that never happened at Williams, but in both cases the teams lost championships as a result. Ferrari, on the other had, avoided the possibility of any such situation during the Schumacher era and we all know the results they achieved!!

[Big Ben]

Sorry were you under the impression I was supporting Alonso and others theories that he was held back at Mclaren? I make it perfectly clear I think Hamilton out classed Alonso during that season and earnt his place in the team. I also make it clear that I think Hamilton was held back in the first part of the season but was too quick to be classed as the number two, therefore the team had to treat both drivers equally. I think you may have misunderstood my post truefan... :)

Yes Hamilton lost a 17 point advantage in 2 races, one down to team error and the other down to pure inexperience and pressure at the final event. If this was any other driver in their first season like Vettel for example, the excuse would be but he's only a rookie. The fact of the matter is, if you support Hamilton on here people will attack you. You are considered a fanboy (whatever the hell that is), or insults will start to fly about his father.. Its pathetic IMO...

I don't recall mentioning his father even though I don't get why I have to watch his face 10 minutes every other weekend. Which one was down to team error? China? Give me a break. It's LH super dooper drive that wins the races (he gives 130% to compensate the teams incompentence) and it's down to team error that he couldn't keep the car on the pitlane.

Just read your post and you might understand why you are called a fanboy. All in all I recall LH's performance in 2007 as pretty lame. What FA did at Monza that year is what i understand by outclassing someone.

[BeansBeansBeans]

All in all I recall LH's performance in 2007 as pretty lame.

Yeah, he was rubbish wasn't he? Podiums in his first nine Grands Prix, one point off the title, neck-and-neck with the great Fernando Alonso. I'm surprised McLaren kept him on.

[BeansBeansBeans]

PS this main land European term Fanboy... Please can you give me a worded definition of what this is... ;)

It means someone who gives praise to a driver that the accuser doesn't like.

[SGWilko]

PS this main land European term Fanboy... Please can you give me a worded definition of what this is... ;)

Doesn't it refer to one of those chaps with a palm frond to keep the master cool?

[Big Ben]

Yeah, he was rubbish wasn't he? Podiums in his first nine Grands Prix, one point off the title, neck-and-neck with the great Fernando Alonso. I'm surprised McLaren kept him on.

again with the worshiping....

[Big Ben]

OR facts that get in the way of you hating him and referring to him as lame???

Just a thought... So if we are Fanboys lol sorry, erm are you labelled a hater or protagonist? :rolleyes:

I keep my hatred for people I know... I'm rather a disliker. Here's a fact for you: he chocked. He chocked big time.He outclassed, destroyed, beat the living daylights out of FA but wasn't able to score 4 points in his last 2 races... lame indeed.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Here's a fact for you: he chocked. He chocked big time.

He was a rookie, he made a couple of errors, big deal.

[I am evil Homer]

Made up for it in 2008 though. Oh damn, there's those annoying facts getting in the way again....

[Big Ben]

Fair enough... What a pethetic loser, in fact I think I hate him myself now.. :laugh:

You must despise Massa too for his appalling performance last season, losing the world championship by a single point, god how lame was he?.. :rolleyes:

Don't even get me started on Schumachers departure in Suzuka 2006, I mean he couldn't even get the car repaired and win the race!!.. Wow I'm off to lift some weights in front of the mirror, in my Union Jack t-shirt.. :)

Still practicing your sarcasm buddy? Don't give up. Some day you will get it right. :laugh:

[Big Ben]

Made up for it in 2008 though. Oh damn, there's those annoying facts getting in the way again....

So 1 in stead of 2 is making up... interesting fact

[ioan]

It's LH super dooper drive that wins the races (he gives 130% to compensate the teams incompentence) and it's down to team error that he couldn't keep the car on the pitlane.

:up:
This is the worse excuse fanboys always come up with, especially certain fanboys. ;)

[ioan]

Lets all just forget that facts and agree LH is lame...

No way.

[DexDexter]

Lets all just forget that facts and agree LH is lame, and couldn't even do well in his first season ok. I can deal with that... We can then just have an all out bum fest over the others instead and how they nearly did well, but its totally different to Lewis... Everyones happy :)

Has anyone else noticed that the people on here who have the most criticism of LH, do not include a flag under their name? Also could this be ioan's other account?? Saying that ioan has better arguements and doesn't launch straight into the insults.. :p

I think looking at the current drivers, I have to say that LH is the guy with the least "doubts", he has never been beaten by a team mate, not even in his rookie year. I don't understand why people dislike him, he gives it all and sometimes puts it in the wall. Like Ayrton.

[truefan72]

Sorry were you under the impression I was supporting Alonso and others theories that he was held back at Mclaren? I make it perfectly clear I think Hamilton out classed Alonso during that season and earnt his place in the team. I also make it clear that I think Hamilton was held back in the first part of the season but was too quick to be classed as the number two, therefore the team had to treat both drivers equally. I think you may have misunderstood my post truefan... :)

Yes Hamilton lost a 17 point advantage in 2 races, one down to team error and the other down to pure inexperience and pressure at the final event. If this was any other driver in their first season like Vettel for example, the excuse would be but he's only a rookie. The fact of the matter is, if you support Hamilton on here people will attack you. You are considered a fanboy (whatever the hell that is), or insults will start to fly about his father.. Its pathetic IMO...

no. I quoted the wrong guy Henners, my aplogies :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Anyway... :dozey:

How are the roses at Brawn :confused: :)

[truefan72]

Read this forum and you will spot the father jibes, and I did not say that you had made them. If I remember in China he was kept out far too long and Dennis and Whitmarsh took responsibility for that. You are right that Lewis was pretty lame at Monza, especially with that pathetic over taking move he did on Raikkonen into the first corner. I could have done that with my eyes closed. Face it mate, you just don't like him.. And you don't like other people having an opinion by the looks of things...

If you think LH's performance was lame then I'd be interested what you think is impressive for a debut season. You only have to look at his records from 2007 to appreciate he was pretty far from lame. Most podiums, most wins, most poles, youngest ever bla bla bla..... Lame my ar$e...

PS this main land European term Fanboy... Please can you give me a worded definition of what this is... ;)

:up:

[truefan72]

again with the worshiping....

there is no reasoning with you then.

How do you rank everyone's performance in 2007 then please?

I would like to know your criteria for lameness

Most here have the decency to respect good drivers and performances, no matter the preference, but your POV is straight out of haternation. If you think LH's performance in 2007 was lame then you surely believe that 99.9999% of all drivers in every season in the entire history of F1 must have been complete and abject disasters. LOL

[DexDexter]

ioan, when a Romanian driver enters Formula One in the future and you can appreciate what its like to support a fellow countryman rather than latching on to a top foreign team and claiming allegiance, I promise I will not refer to you as a fanboy. I will respect the fact you are loyal..



I agree, Ioan's got it easy. :)

[Saint Devote]

Read this forum and you will spot the father jibes, and I did not say that you had made them. If I remember in China he was kept out far too long and Dennis and Whitmarsh took responsibility for that. You are right that Lewis was pretty lame at Monza, especially with that pathetic over taking move he did on Raikkonen into the first corner. I could have done that with my eyes closed. Face it mate, you just don't like him.. And you don't like other people having an opinion by the looks of things...

If you think LH's performance was lame then I'd be interested what you think is impressive for a debut season. You only have to look at his records from 2007 to appreciate he was pretty far from lame. Most podiums, most wins, most poles, youngest ever bla bla bla..... Lame my ar$e...

PS this main land European term Fanboy... Please can you give me a worded definition of what this is... ;)

Raikkonen won the most grands prix [SIX] in 2007 not Hamilton [FOUR] - Lewis' first season is remarkably similar to that other slacker named Jacques Villeneuve because all he did the year before was win the Indy 500 and the championship [Lewis won and performed brilliantly in the GP2 championship - his overtaking just superb] then move to f1 and win FOUR races [same as Lewis] - would have been FIVE if his oil pressure had not collapsed - and then they swapped the poles and fastest laps they did and both finished runner-up in the WDC.

Both impressive - although of course Villeneuve was not hyped as the coming of the messiah like Hamilton because Villeneuve is white.

I could never support Hamilton because I consider him to be a whimp. He whimped out of his London Triathlon challenge to Jenson Button via his creepy father, then lied and was amongst the trio that destroyed Dave Ryan's career and I find him effete - not on.

[I am evil Homer]

Raikkonen won the most grands prix [SIX] in 2007 not Hamilton [FOUR] - Lewis' first season is remarkably similar to that other slacker named Jacques Villeneuve because all he did the year before was win the Indy 500 and the championship then move to f1 and win FOUR races [same as Lewis] - would have been FIVE if his oil pressure had not collapsed - and then they swapped the poles and fastest laps they did and both finished runner-up in the WDC.

Both impressive - although of course Villeneuve was not hyped as the coming of the messiah like Hamilton because Villeneuve is white.

I could never support Hamilton because I consider him to be a whimp. He whimped out of his London Triathlon challenge to Jenson Button via his creepy father, then lied and was amongst the trio that destroyed Dave Ryan's career and I find him effete - not on.


Give it a rest with the colour thing...it's not only insulting it's down right stupid. Not on.

[ioan]

ioan, when a Romanian driver enters Formula One in the future and you can appreciate what its like to support a fellow countryman rather than latching on to a top foreign team and claiming allegiance, I promise I will not refer to you as a fanboy. I will respect the fact you are loyal..

Let me tell you something, I consider that supporting someone based on nationality is one of the stupidest things on Earth.

To further clarify things apart from being born in Romania I don't feel related in any way to anyone but my family and my close friends.

I lived more than 1/3rd of my life in countries other than Romania and I support someone only for their personal achievements and not for the place they are born in, for the obvious reason that we are described by our actions and not by where we are born (something we weren't asked about before birth so isn't of our own doing).

There you have it, I'm not a nationalist and I despise nationalists, of any nationality. :D

[ioan]

Both impressive - although of course Villeneuve was not hyped as the coming of the messiah like Hamilton because Villeneuve is white.

Is that a racist remark or maybe people believe that the Messiah should be black? Not sure what to make of it right now.

[Big Ben]

Has anyone else noticed that the people on here who have the most criticism of LH, do not include a flag under their name? Also could this be ioan's other account?? Saying that ioan has better arguements and doesn't launch straight into the insults.. :p

Your point being? I used to have a flag but I don't know what happened... it disappeared one day and I didn't bother to put it back... I prefer it that way. I like to see people assuming what my nationality is and draw stupid conclusions.

[ioan]

Also could this be ioan's other account??

That's it, now I'll sue you for libel. :p :
You'll shortly get a PM from my lawyer. :D

[ioan]

Your point being?

He's just in love with his keyboard and likes to push it's buttons often. :D

[BeansBeansBeans]

Anyway... :dozey:

How are the roses at Brawn :confused: :)

I think Button and Barrichello are getting on as well as can be expected in the midst of an intra-team title battle. They've always got along great, but perhaps they'll distance themselves from each other in the coming weeks.

[ioan]

Just to clear things up my end, just because I support a fellow countryman that also does not mean I am a nationalist and I hope you didn't think that.

Ofcourse you are a nationalist, not an extremist but still a nationalist as long as you support someone because he/she is your countryman.



You can be proud of your country without losing respect for other nations IMO.

Sure. What I pointed out is that there is no reason for me to be proud of anything else than my own achievements in life.




One good thing about knowing your stand point here is, that we'll never hear you using digs about forumers being British or Hamilton having this so called arrogant British attitude. As you are not a nationalist, you certainly wouldn't use someones nationality against them in an arguement so this is good to know.. I shall save your post for reference in case I need your backup in the future :)

Not being a nationalist gives me even more right to criticize the nationalists. So don't hold your breat cause I don't share your logic over this one.



Right lets discuss Brawn for goodness sake :p

Are they nationalist or what?! :D

[BeansBeansBeans]

If you want to hold a private conversation send a PM.

I think I speak for everybody when I say that nobody cares.

[Big Ben]

Its good to see the great man supporting Button for the title.... Schumacher always held Jenson with high regard so no surprises here.. :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8272429.stm

since Imola 2005 probably... interesting... I would have thought that gestures like Austria 2002 would not be forgotten so easily

[ioan]

If you want to hold a private conversation send a PM.

I think I speak for everybody when I say that nobody cares.

I don't care either.

[Saint Devote]

There was ultimately nothing to forgive - why?

Because Michael Schumacher openly declared that he did not enjoy the win and he stood on the 2nd step of the podium and insisted that Rubens take the top step.

Then - as it seems y'all have forgotten - Michael Schumacher returned the favor later at the US Grand Prix at Indianapolis and Rubens won.

I am for team orders as it has always been part of f1 and more importantly it is the RIGHT of the team to act in its own best interests.

There was a negative reaction by many fans but they do not understand.

Todt and Brawn were correct in their decision and Schumacher did not like it and neither did Barrichello - but it is to their credit that they obeyed the team.

It reflects ideal team discipline and a good winning spirit.

And while Rubens did get all bent out of shape after the Spanish Grand Prix - for nothing - what he learnt at Ferrari from being teammate to a very special driver like Schumacher, was also how to move on and focus his energy into trying to win and he has succeded.

I think that the team boss was Ross :-] made a great deal of difference as well.

[SGWilko]

There was ultimately nothing to forgive - why?

Because Michael Schumacher openly declared that he did not enjoy the win and he stood on the 2nd step of the podium and insisted that Rubens take the top step.

Then - as it seems y'all have forgotten - Michael Schumacher returned the favor later at the US Grand Prix at Indianapolis and Rubens won.

I am for team orders as it has always been part of f1 and more importantly it is the RIGHT of the team to act in its own best interests.

There was a negative reaction by many fans but they do not understand.

Todt and Brawn were correct in their decision and Schumacher did not like it and neither did Barrichello - but it is to their credit that they obeyed the team.

It reflects ideal team discipline and a good winning spirit.

And while Rubens did get all bent out of shape after the Spanish Grand Prix - for nothing - what he learnt at Ferrari from being teammate to a very special driver like Schumacher, was also how to move on and focus his energy into trying to win and he has succeded.

I think that the team boss was Ross :-] made a great deal of difference as well.

Well that's just tosh IMO. Michael broke with protocol and did not take the top step not because he felt sorry for his team mate who was not allowed the win, but because of the negative reaction from the crowd. In so doing he brought the sport into disrepute.

As for Indy, whether or not it was a favour returning exercise, again the only rresult was to insult the inteligence of the fans, and again the sport was brought into disrepute.

Apart from those miniscule misdemeanors, all was well.

[ioan]

Well that's just tosh IMO. Michael broke with protocol and did not take the top step not because he felt sorry for his team mate who was not allowed the win, but because of the negative reaction from the crowd.

And you know that for sure cause a bird told you last night before going to sleep.

[SGWilko]

And you know that for sure cause a bird told you last night before going to sleep.

You calling my wife a bird? ;)

[SGWilko]

And you know that for sure cause a bird told you last night before going to sleep.

If he felt that sorry for his No. 2, why overtake him in the first place?

[ioan]

You calling my wife a bird? ;)

Didn't even know you were married. ;)

[ioan]

If he felt that sorry for his No. 2, why overtake him in the first place?

Because Napoleon ordered it so.

[SGWilko]

Didn't even know you were married. ;)

Does the grey hair and sullied expression not give it away.... :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Because Napoleon ordered it so.

What they gonna do if he disobeys, sack the star driver?

[ioan]

Does the grey hair and sullied expression not give it away.... :laugh:

For the sake of your hair (grey or not) I hope she doesn't read this board. :D

[ioan]

What they gonna do if he disobeys, sack the star driver?

I don't know, my bird didn't tell me anything yesterday ;) , but I doubt that disobeying was ever on the list at Ferrari while Todt was at the helm of the team.

[pino]

Please let's keep this on topic...

[Dave B]

Please let's keep this on topic...
FIrst time for everything, I suppose... :p :