How long before all the teams chose Mercs Engines

[harsha]

????

Merc Engine seems to be fastest among the mix here....6 cars in the top 7 in Monza...including force india...

how long before Red Bull,STR,Williams choose Mercedes customer engines???

and izzit good for the sport :?:

[F1boat]

It is not, but with the expected withdrawal from Toyota and Renault, probably 500%+ of the cars will be with Merc power, there will be possibly a few teams with Ferrari engines and some unlucky guys with Cosworth. :(

[N. Jones]

I don't think that is going to happen. Who has the best engine varies from year to year.

After 05 and 06 everyone wanted a Renault.
During Michael's heyday and a year afterward Ferrari was supplying two teams besides the factory team.
This is just Mercedes year. They may not be fastest next year, although with the number of engine mfg's dwindling to five (a shame) their "reign" on top might not be challenged.

[harsha]

this is the first time that Mercedes were supplying customer engines...but with the number of people taking engines by Mercedes....what happens if Mercedes decides to quit?

[ioan]

Very very long IMO. Maybe the day Ferrari decides to leave F1 and I doubt that Mercedes will be around when and if that happens. ;)

And BTW the rules do not allow for them to supply more than 4 teams.

[UltimateDanGTR]

The 4 team rule is good IMO, we get some variety then. Merc engines are very popular, and IMO have been the equal best engines on the grid along with ferrari for the past few years. with no bmw engines, toyota and renault remain options, but their withdrawal is inevitable, but one REALLY HOPES they at least stay on as engine suppliers, like renault were for years.......

and we dont need to go into cosworth...........

[F1boat]

this is the first time that Mercedes were supplying customer engines...but with the number of people taking engines by Mercedes....what happens if Mercedes decides to quit?

IMO F1 will survive no matter what, if the big engine manufacturers are gone, then I guess that it will be Ferrari vs Cosworth and some small engine manufacturers like Judd or Zytec...

[jens]

The complete turnaround for Mercedes and their superiority is quite amazing. I remember before the freeze MB's was constantly criticized for being unreliable and/or underpowered. Also with the introduction of V8's in 2006 MB was immediately one of the 'worst' engines on the grid, but the engine freeze and rev-limiter has beautifully turned the table in MB's favour. Current situation almost reminds the old Silberpfeile days of 30's and 50's, when Daimler-Benz was dominating the Grand Prix circuits. :p :

[Ranger]

Very very long IMO. Maybe the day Ferrari decides to leave F1 and I doubt that Mercedes will be around when and if that happens. ;)

And BTW the rules do not allow for them to supply more than 4 teams.

I suppose it will be too bad when Toyota, Renault and BMW quit due to the engine freeze leaving them in competitively untenable positions.

[ioan]

I suppose it will be too bad when Toyota, Renault and BMW quit due to the engine freeze leaving them in competitively untenable positions.

Renault shouldn't be unhappy, they were allowed to develop their engine last winter and still couldn't get up there with Mercedes and Ferrari.

[ioan]

The complete turnaround for Mercedes and their superiority is quite amazing. I remember before the freeze MB's was constantly criticized for being unreliable and/or underpowered. Also with the introduction of V8's in 2006 MB was immediately one of the 'worst' engines on the grid, but the engine freeze and rev-limiter has beautifully turned the table in MB's favour. Current situation almost reminds the old Silberpfeile days of 30's and 50's, when Daimler-Benz was dominating the Grand Prix circuits. :p :

The rev limitation rules helped them out as they were unable to produce a reliable engine that could rev over 20000 rpm.

[Sleeper]

The rev limitation rules helped them out as they were unable to produce a reliable engine that could rev over 20000 rpm.
I dont remeber too many Mercedes engines blowing up in 06.

Anyway, if RBR want the Mercedes engines next year they need dispensation from the FIA and it seems like they dont want the whole grid to be powered by just one or 2 makes.

[ioan]

I dont remeber too many Mercedes engines blowing up in 06.

But strange enough they were not as fast as the others either.

[Sleeper]

But strange enough they were not as fast as the others either.
That wasnt down to the engine though, the McLaren just wasnt a great car that year, too much understeer for its drivers.

[ioan]

That wasnt down to the engine though, the McLaren just wasnt a great car that year, too much understeer for its drivers.

I believe that their engine was not up there in terms of power with the other engines that were able to safely rev over 20K rpm, they most probably designed an engine that produced peak power at lower revs. Once everyone was restricted to 19K rpm the Mercedes was starting to be equal to the Ferrari and BMW engines and when the revs were restricted to 18K rpm Mercedes reaped the rewards for having an engine that was designed to produce top power around 18K rpm while the other engines were designed with over 20K rpm in mind.

This certainly isn't excusing Renault who had this winter at disposal to improve their engine and they are still not up there.

[Sleeper]

I believe that their engine was not up there in terms of power with the other engines that were able to safely rev over 20K rpm, they most probably designed an engine that produced peak power at lower revs. Once everyone was restricted to 19K rpm the Mercedes was starting to be equal to the Ferrari and BMW engines and when the revs were restricted to 18K rpm Mercedes reaped the rewards for having an engine that was designed to produce top power around 18K rpm while the other engines were designed with over 20K rpm in mind.

This certainly isn't excusing Renault who had this winter at disposal to improve their engine and they are still not up there.
Errr, you started off talking about reliability, which was ery good as far as I can remember, and as I remember it the Mercedes was the second engine to hit 20 000rpm after the Cosworth. The fact that Kimi finished an unchallenged 2nd at Monza (without looking like he was too bothered about catching Michael) suggests that there was little wrong with that engine in terms of outright power.

[ioan]

as I remember it the Mercedes was the second engine to hit 20 000rpm after the Cosworth.

And me thinking the firsts one was BMW.

Anyway how many seconds before the Mercedes thing exploded after reaching the 20K rpms while BMW was hitting 21K? Not too many.

[jens]

Errr, you started off talking about reliability, which was ery good as far as I can remember, and as I remember it the Mercedes was the second engine to hit 20 000rpm after the Cosworth. The fact that Kimi finished an unchallenged 2nd at Monza (without looking like he was too bothered about catching Michael) suggests that there was little wrong with that engine in terms of outright power.

McLaren's chassis has used to be very good on so-called mechanical grip circuits in recent years, in 2006 it was evidenced by the fact that they were fast at Melbourne, Monaco, Montreal, Hungaroring and Monza.

[Sonic]

Sooner or later all F1 teams are going to be Mercedes-Benz sponsored by santander! ;)

[Knock-on]

The complete turnaround for Mercedes and their superiority is quite amazing. I remember before the freeze MB's was constantly criticized for being unreliable and/or underpowered. Also with the introduction of V8's in 2006 MB was immediately one of the 'worst' engines on the grid, but the engine freeze and rev-limiter has beautifully turned the table in MB's favour. Current situation almost reminds the old Silberpfeile days of 30's and 50's, when Daimler-Benz was dominating the Grand Prix circuits. :p :

You can make a fast engine reliable by development but it's very hard to make a slow reliable engine into a fast relaible engine.

I remember when Kimi moved thinking "too soon Kimi". He went through the pain barrier but then the engine sterted to come good. Bet he's wondering the same even though he lucked into the WDC a bit by the Alonso / Lewis war :)


Renault shouldn't be unhappy, they were allowed to develop their engine last winter and still couldn't get up there with Mercedes and Ferrari.

Totally agree. The rules were there for everyone and yet Renault were allowed special dispensation to improve their engine. The fact is that the engine is as good as the Ferrari or Mercedes unit for pace is one thing but they can still develop the engine with relaibility modifications which is what's hurting them.

On it's day, the Renault is as good as anyone but it's reliability that's killed RBR championship.

[ioan]

On it's day, the Renault is as good as anyone but it's reliability that's killed RBR championship.

That is also related to the Newey needle design philosophy as I don't remember Alonso blowing any engine this season.
Certainly if the Renault engine was up there in terms of performance with Ferrari and Mercedes than maybe Newey could allow himslef a bit more of drag along with more cooling possibilities for the engine.

In the end I believe the Renault engine is lacking a bit of power compared with the best and also Newey's design philosophy compromises the engine cooling system's performance. Both these mean that the RBR driver's are screwed this season.

[Mark]

I think 4 teams is too much personally. You could have a dominant engine locking out the entire top 8. Three teams per engine would be better. But if there are no manufacturers prepared to supply?!

[Knock-on]

That is also related to the Newey needle design philosophy as I don't remember Alonso blowing any engine this season.
Certainly if the Renault engine was up there in terms of performance with Ferrari and Mercedes than maybe Newey could allow himslef a bit more of drag along with more cooling possibilities for the engine.

In the end I believe the Renault engine is lacking a bit of power compared with the best and also Newey's design philosophy compromises the engine cooling system's performance. Both these mean that the RBR driver's are screwed this season.

You do have a point but some of the problems at RBR were not down to engine but team and driver cock-ups as well.

How many engines is Alonso on? Not worth bothering with the ex-p
Jr car as it never got stressed to blow and hardly finished a GP without crashing out :D

[ioan]

You do have a point but some of the problems at RBR were not down to engine but team and driver cock-ups as well.

I was just referring to the fact that Vettel doesn't have any new engines left with 34 races to go an I'm not sure what is Webber situation but I doubt it's much better.

[ioan]

Jr car as it never got stressed to blow and hardly finished a GP without crashing out :D

Still he managed to overtake Hamilton on track in Turkey! :p

[Knock-on]

Still he managed to overtake Hamilton on track in Turkey! :p

You're right.

I can imagine Martin Whitmarsh frantically searching for his phone book so that he can replace Lewis with Jr :p :D

[Dave B]

I was just referring to the fact that Vettel doesn't have any new engines left with 34 races to go an I'm not sure what is Webber situation but I doubt it's much better.

I know Bernie was all for getting lots of new venues on the calendar but that's taking the biscuit! :eek: :p

[F1boat]

I know Bernie was all for getting lots of new venues on the calendar but that's taking the biscuit! :eek: :p

Obviously he is following the NASCAR example lol!

[ioan]

I know Bernie was all for getting lots of new venues on the calendar but that's taking the biscuit! :eek: :p

Maybe it was wishful thinking from my part. :)
Or maybe just a typo. :D

[harsha]

That is also related to the Newey needle design philosophy as I don't remember Alonso blowing any engine this season.
Certainly if the Renault engine was up there in terms of performance with Ferrari and Mercedes than maybe Newey could allow himslef a bit more of drag along with more cooling possibilities for the engine.

In the end I believe the Renault engine is lacking a bit of power compared with the best and also Newey's design philosophy compromises the engine cooling system's performance. Both these mean that the RBR driver's are screwed this season.

I'd tend to agree with the Newey design...his cars are always almost known to be fragile pieces of glass