Italian GP

[ioan]

Maybe there is already a thread about this but I can't seem to find it on first page.

So, FP1 is over and Fisi looks to be doing better than Badoer. :D

[ArrowsFA1]

So, FP1 is over and Fisi looks to be doing better than Badoer. :D
And Kimi :D :s mokin:

1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:23.936 26
2. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:24.332 + 0.396 27
3. Sutil Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:24.471 + 0.535 24
4. Alonso Renault (B) 1:24.477 + 0.541 21
5. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:24.683 + 0.747 25
6. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:24.703 + 0.767 35
7. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:24.706 + 0.770 21
8. Fisichella Ferrari (B) 1:24.732 + 0.796 24
9. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:24.759 + 0.823 19
10. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:24.761 + 0.825 26
11. Kubica BMW-Sauber (B) 1:24.813 + 0.877 20
12. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:24.826 + 0.890 24
13. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:24.927 + 0.991 29
14. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:25.150 + 1.214 28
15. Grosjean Renault (B) 1:25.612 + 1.676 18
16. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:25.689 + 1.753 29
17. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:25.742 + 1.806 30
18. Vettel Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:25.951 + 2.015 8
19. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:26.020 + 2.084 23
20. Glock Toyota (B) 1:26.325 + 2.389 17

[Dave B]

A few small errors from Fisi, but that applies to a lot of the drivers today as they found the limits and got to grips with the new kerbs.

I was also impressed with Force India: Sutil for demonstrating that their Spa form was no fluke, and Liuzzi for his calm and orderly approach.

[ioan]

LdM must be cursing the day he decided to put Badoer in the no.3 car. That mistake might cost them many millions if they lose 3rd place to McLaren.

What the hell are Toyota doing?! They were fast at Spa but are again dead last here, they are all up and down in a very consistent way. :\

[Donney]

They are just being themselves....

[ioan]

TBH I believe that Force India and BMW are doing well here (as well as they did in Spa) because these are low downforce circuits and having a car that has poor downforce isn't such a hinderence as it was in Silverstone for example.

Same for McLaren IMO. They mainly did well on slow and twisty tracks where downforce and balance was not that important and they could make up for it with good mechanical grip. Let's not forget that they showed good speed in FP in Spa too only to fall back when the going started to be tough in qualifying.

[Sleeper]

LdM must be cursing the day he decided to put Badoer in the no.3 car. That mistake might cost them many millions if they lose 3rd place to McLaren.

What the hell are Toyota doing?! They were fast at Spa but are again dead last here, they are all up and down in a very consistent way. :\
Toyota had the slowest car on the streights at Spa, but second fastest in sector 2, so I think thats why they're slow here, lots of long streights and no high speed corners.

Nice to see FI still up there, but this was only FP1, which tends to be a bit irelavent as far as times go.

[Saint Devote]

This is only practice one - the teams are still sorting out the cars just to run proprerly on the Monza circuit.

Kubica turned down the chance to drive the Ferrari?! He did not want to ruin his reputation! Thats what happens when drivers play poker for fun. They become wussy.

This championship need a Jax Villeneuve character. Even Jenson has calmed down godammit!

[Saint Devote]

And Kimi :D :s mokin:

1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:23.936 26
2. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:24.332 + 0.396 27
3. Sutil Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:24.471 + 0.535 24
4. Alonso Renault (B) 1:24.477 + 0.541 21
5. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:24.683 + 0.747 25
6. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:24.703 + 0.767 35
7. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:24.706 + 0.770 21


Have to write this: Jenson is the leading championship challenger! :p

[Dave B]

Poor Vettel is really being hampered by his engine situation, resorting to the Daily Express puzzle book by all accounts!

[jas123f1]

Nice start of Fisi :burnout:

He started with common sense and make a faster round in the end.. :up:

[Sonic]

Toyota had the slowest car on the streights at Spa, but second fastest in sector 2, so I think thats why they're slow here, lots of long streights and no high speed corners.

Nice to see FI still up there, but this was only FP1, which tends to be a bit irelavent as far as times go.

Agreed with respect to Toyota. The only part of the Spa lap they were fast was the twisting middle sector but I believe I'm right in saying they were 0.7 off the pace ithe fast sectors. I'm pleased fisi has settled in well at the reds but I might just have to laugh if he spends his race looking at the rear wing of a FI!

[52Paddy]

I know its only FP1 but I wouldn't be surprised if FI's form continues through the weekend. And top marks to Buemi too :up:

FP2 starts soon so we'll see how similar the situation is :D

[SGWilko]

driving like turd off a 7 iron the following.. Wow I can't imagine... :)

Now that IS a vivid imagination you have there..... :laugh:

[SGWilko]

McLaren did look good, certainly Lewis looked to be learning the best ways to re-charge the KERS batteries.

Sorry to hear from the BBC online coverage that all the F1 boys suffer from helmet suck.... :eek:

That must be a real pain. ;)

[Dave B]

Sorry to hear from the BBC online coverage that all the F1 boys suffer from helmet suck.... :eek:

That must be a real pain. ;)
Ant and Crofy were certainly on form this morning :up:

Looking forward to hearing the Lesmo Sisters singing later... ;)

[truefan72]

ah good first practice,

I can't lie,I was quietly rooting for Fisi to do good and am happy he did so.
again impressed by the Force india, liuzzi looking a bit pedestrian compared to sutil. that car has got some chops to it!

[ioan]

Hmm, Fisi is propping up the timing sheets. :\
Just saw Badoer gesticulating in the Ferrari box, he was probably telling them he could have done better, like if anyone believes him anymore.

[ArrowsFA1]

Looks like Force India were spot on when they said Spa wasn't a fluke.

Sutil quickest in FP2.

1. Sutil Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:23.924 28
2. Grosjean Renault (B) 1:24.163 + 0.239 31
3. Alonso Renault (B) 1:24.297 + 0.373 35
4. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:24.482 + 0.558 41
5. Kubica BMW-Sauber (B) 1:24.622 + 0.698 40
6. Glock Toyota (B) 1:24.634 + 0.710 36
7. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:24.693 + 0.769 34
8. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:24.796 + 0.872 39
9. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:24.799 + 0.875 36
10. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:24.884 + 0.960 44
11. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:24.902 + 0.978 32
12. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:24.921 + 0.997 39
13. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:24.967 + 1.043 40
14. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:24.979 + 1.055 25
15. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:25.003 + 1.079 34
16. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:25.140 + 1.216 35
17. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:25.215 + 1.291 38
18. Vettel Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:25.386 + 1.462 27
19. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:25.424 + 1.500 32
20. Fisichella Ferrari (B) 1:25.543 + 1.619 36

[I am evil Homer]

And very close to Lewis's table topping time from FP1!

[ioan]

Looks like Force India were spot on when they said Spa wasn't a fluke.

Sutil quickest in FP2.

1. Sutil Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:23.924 28
2. Grosjean Renault (B) 1:24.163 + 0.239 31
3. Alonso Renault (B) 1:24.297 + 0.373 35
4. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:24.482 + 0.558 41
5. Kubica BMW-Sauber (B) 1:24.622 + 0.698 40
6. Glock Toyota (B) 1:24.634 + 0.710 36
7. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:24.693 + 0.769 34
8. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:24.796 + 0.872 39
9. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:24.799 + 0.875 36
10. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:24.884 + 0.960 44
11. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:24.902 + 0.978 32
12. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:24.921 + 0.997 39
13. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:24.967 + 1.043 40
14. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:24.979 + 1.055 25
15. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:25.003 + 1.079 34
16. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:25.140 + 1.216 35
17. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:25.215 + 1.291 38
18. Vettel Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:25.386 + 1.462 27
19. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:25.424 + 1.500 32
20. Fisichella Ferrari (B) 1:25.543 + 1.619 36

To his defense Fisi was faster this morning and still has the fastest lap time of a Ferrari for today.

[jas123f1]

To his defense Fisi was faster this morning and still has the fastest lap time of a Ferrari for today.


To his defense Fisi was faster this morning and still has the fastest lap time of a Ferrari for today.

No, in F1 is not any defences - Fisi was not fast enough – maybe the situation is a bit difficult for him - home race in a Ferrari : … and still hasn’t made more than one day in the team and the car - ok today Fisi was 0,75 from "points" - but I’m sure it will be better in future.. Will see tomorrow..

He was
8. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:24.796 + 0.872 39
20. Fisichella Ferrari (B) 1:25.543 + 1.619 36

[Kevincal]

He was probably practicing using a heavy fuel load in P2... Fisi that is. GO FISI, beat Kimi! ;)

[ioan]

No, in F1 is not any defences - Fisi was not fast enough – maybe the situation is a bit difficult for him - home race in a Ferrari : … and still hasn’t made more than one day in the team and the car - ok today Fisi was 0,75 from "points" - but I’m sure it will be better in future.. Will see tomorrow..

He was
8. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:24.796 + 0.872 39
20. Fisichella Ferrari (B) 1:25.543 + 1.619 36

I read it differently. Today's best times by Fisi and Kimi:

1. Fisichella Ferrari (B) 1:24.732 + 0.796
2. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:24.761 + 0.825

Looks like Fisi started with the right foot. :)

[ioan]

He was probably practicing using a heavy fuel load in P2... Fisi that is. GO FISI, beat Kimi! ;)

I think you're right. :)

[Robinho]

still can't see why he's gone to Ferrari - sure its a dream to drive for Ferrari for an Italian (or most F1 drivers in general) but he seems to have given up the chance of actually finishing his career with winning a race, judging by Spa and now Sutils practice pace.

[52Paddy]

There's a lot of potential contenders for this race already. Quali should be interesting. Its so strange seeing Force India's change of form but great for the sport :up:

[ioan]

still can't see why he's gone to Ferrari - sure its a dream to drive for Ferrari for an Italian (or most F1 drivers in general) but he seems to have given up the chance of actually finishing his career with winning a race, judging by Spa and now Sutils practice pace.

He has already won races, but he never raced for Ferrari before. It was really an easy choice.

[Sonic]

Agree with you fully Ioan.

There are three main reasons Fisi has switched to the reds IMO;

1. He wants to. This may not be logical to us sitting on the sidelines but its what his heart told him to do.

2. The future. 5 races at Ferrari is very short term. However his test role will possibly open other doors for his long term post racing career.

3. Whilst FI are sooooo quick at the moment there is no cast iron proof it will last. Both spa and monza are low downforce so its totally possible the green and orange cars could slip back.

[UltimateDanGTR]

How often can we take practice times for granted as indicator to race and quali pace? Id argue hardly ever, I think we can never be sure until quali and race days. As if that needed saying though? My point is we will only find out how comfortably fisi is until tommorrow, yes he was slowest this afternoon, but that often means nothing. i mean, no one really expects to see grosjean on the front row tommorrow do they? (I hope I dont have to eat my words! :D )

[Robinho]

He has already won races, but he never raced for Ferrari before. It was really an easy choice.

i know he's won before, but the opportunity of winning another race i his final season racing i would have thought would be a greater lure, given that he was apparently going to be Ferrari 3rd driver next year anyway so would get to be part of the team. the way it seems at the moment the improving Force India car is more likely to win than the Ferrari which has been given up on for this year (even if it has won a race itself) - given he's also now got to learn an new car and the intricacies of KERs to get the best from it.

i doubt it was that easier a choice, although undoubtedley for an italian driver the opportunity to race a Ferrari at Monza seems to have been to greater temptation in this case.

could be proved wrong yet, maybe he'll pull off a result in the Ferrari, but i can't see it, given how much more at home Kimi will be with the car (and seems to be getting a lot out of it)

[ykiki]

i know he's won before, but the opportunity of winning another race i his final season racing i would have thought would be a greater lure, given that he was apparently going to be Ferrari 3rd driver next year anyway so would get to be part of the team.

...but I think you're overlooking the lure of actually racing for Ferrari at Monza compared to just being "part of the team" next year, especially with all of the testing restrictions these days.

[rabf1]

MAybe Fish should have stuck with Force India.

[Dzeidzei]

He was probably practicing using a heavy fuel load in P2... Fisi that is. GO FISI, beat Kimi! ;)

Well, according to Kimi they both were and "the Friday practise went fine". The truth is that unless you know the fuel load, tyres etc you dont really know. So 2nd part of quali and the race on Sunday will tell us how things are.

[jens]

I hope Sutil can keep his cool and finally score some strong points for FI.

Generally I think Hamilton is the favourite for the win. McLaren is strong on circuits, which put extra emphasis on mechanical grip (also visible in Hungary and Valencia) + KERS will surely help as well.

[UltimateDanGTR]

I hope Sutil can keep his cool and finally score some strong points for FI.

Generally I think Hamilton is the favourite for the win. McLaren is strong on circuits, which put extra emphasis on mechanical grip (also visible in Hungary and Valencia) + KERS will surely help as well.

well, in that case they have got a chance in all of this years 17 grands prix! :D

[F1boat]

Obviously the scarlet car is difficult to drive, but I think that Fisi, Jenson and Vettel will all improve tomorrow, so I have to say that the race and the qualifying looks promising. However, with the expected rain it could turn into a Vettel show.

[nigelred5]

LdM must be cursing the day he decided to put Badoer in the no.3 car. That mistake might cost them many millions if they lose 3rd place to McLaren.

What the hell are Toyota doing?! They were fast at Spa but are again dead last here, they are all up and down in a very consistent way. :\

their drivers are too busy hunting for the poorly placed self-destruct button. Same ol' ToyotaF1. Finding new ways to shoot themselves in the foot since day 1.

[keysersoze]

I have a question:

Would it worthwhile to try out wet settings on a dry track if you are reasonably sure it will rain the rest of the weekend? Probably not, huh?

[nigelred5]

To borrow a line from Al Unser Jr.,

"You just don't know what <driving for Ferrari> means"

I imagine Fisi gave it ooooooh...., 3.2 milliseconds to say yes. What Italian kid growing up with dreams of being a race driver doesn't dream of someday driving a Ferrari at Monza?

[Sleeper]

I have a question:

Would it worthwhile to try out wet settings on a dry track if you are reasonably sure it will rain the rest of the weekend? Probably not, huh?
Er, no, not in the slightest. You wouldnt be running on rain tyres as they would be destroyed in a couple of laps and grip levels, plus wherre the standing water is, cant be predicted.

[christophulus]

We could do with rain on Sunday if we're going to have a championship race. The Red Bulls seem quicker than Brawn but that's irrelevant if they can't fight for the big points. Rain could add that extra bit they've been searching for.

[Saint Devote]

P2 is as irrelevant for quickest laps as was P1 because every team was doing something different. Brawn were trying to dial in the car for long runs but Button for example kept on having niggling problems and was in and out of the pits.

Fisichella, while his position does raise Badoer like pictures is still getting used to the brakes, the steering wheel and in general the Ferrari flow. But he does have to pull it together tomorrow or he will be in deep trouble.

As Button said afterwards when asked, he has no idea what the grid will look like other than he thinks the Mclaren's may be the ones to beat.

He is also not too concerned about the Brawn;s pace because the car feels good and they were not concentrating on qualifying in P2.

Saturday could be a very intriguing day at Monza.

[Kevincal]

And for the people making a big deal about Fisi being last in P2, look at the other top names at the bottom of the chart...

11. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:24.902 + 0.978 32
12. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:24.921 + 0.997 39
13. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:24.967 + 1.043 40
14. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:24.979 + 1.055 25
15. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:25.003 + 1.079 34
16. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:25.140 + 1.216 35
17. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:25.215 + 1.291 38
18. Vettel Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:25.386 + 1.462 27
19. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:25.424 + 1.500 32
20. Fisichella Ferrari (B) 1:25.543 + 1.619 36

These guys experiment a lot with fuel loads, settings and tires in practice. Possibly Fisi was / is toying with the idea of a 2 stopper?

And Force India will be back to mediocre after this race... FI = great on super low downforce tracks. Every other track = mediocre or worse... Fisi is a really cool and nice guy. I hope he proves a lot of people wrong. :) He could very well shock Kimi the rest of the year. Should be fun to find out.

[Saint Devote]

To borrow a line from Al Unser Jr.,

"You just don't know what <driving for Ferrari> means"

I imagine Fisi gave it ooooooh...., 3.2 milliseconds to say yes. What Italian kid growing up with dreams of being a race driver doesn't dream of someday driving a Ferrari at Monza?

Jody Scheckter :D one of the several or so drivers in motor racing history to ever win the world championship in a Ferrari, at Monza and winning the Italian Grand Prix all at the same race, in 1979, always corrects people when they call racing for Ferrari a team.

He says driving for Ferrari is driving for a country and you feel the pressure directly like nothing else in racing.

I would say for an Italian driver in a Ferrari doing what Jody did, has to be the ultimate.

[Saint Devote]

While there are many that crave for Fisichella to "shock" Kimi, its not going to happen.

We ARE discussing Fisichella chaps, versus Kimi. In a lucid non-emotionalistic moment how can anyone believe in a Ferrari the Italian driver will beat the Finn in a head to head no problems straight fight?!!!

[Saint Devote]

Today, Sep 11 is the anniversary of the accident at the Variante Retifillio that claimed the life of the great Ronnie Peterson, "SuperSwede", in 1978.

There were awful recriminations and accusations leveled at Riccardo Patrese - a young realtively inexperienced driver at the time and I wonder if the Italian ever got over it entirely.

But Peterson was such a magnificent sublime talent. He would just get into a car and drive around the problems. He had no technical method to speak of and would accept any setup and then drive quickly.

The Lotus 72 was a great car in the right hands and Ronnies were amongst the best ever.

There is a Ronnie Peterson museum in Sweden and last year there was an event that had his brother and daughter in attendance. MotorSport had a good report on it.

You cannot but see whose daughter she is and her expression is just like her late father.

There were many people at the event and so many wonderful well known names including Lotus team members that worked with SuperSwede. The family were just amazed that so many people attended and remember Ronnie so fondly.

Thse days were a very special time in racing for fans especially, and surely people hearing how familiar and interactive the drivers were - and the teams - in today's rigid fan unfriendly environment can only wonder.

I think that Ronnie Peterson, just like Gilles Villeneuve, would not like f1 as it is today.

[jas123f1]

Today, Sep 11 is the anniversary of the accident at the Variante Retifillio that claimed the life of the great Ronnie Peterson, "SuperSwede", in 1978.

There were awful recriminations and accusations leveled at Riccardo Patrese - a young realtively inexperienced driver at the time and I wonder if the Italian ever got over it entirely.

But Peterson was such a magnificent sublime talent. He would just get into a car and drive around the problems. He had no technical method to speak of and would accept any setup and then drive quickly.

The Lotus 72 was a great car in the right hands and Ronnies were amongst the best ever.

There is a Ronnie Peterson museum in Sweden and last year there was an event that had his brother and daughter in attendance. MotorSport had a good report on it.

You cannot but see whose daughter she is and her expression is just like her late father.

There were many people at the event and so many wonderful well known names including Lotus team members that worked with SuperSwede. The family were just amazed that so many people attended and remember Ronnie so fondly.

Thse days were a very special time in racing for fans especially, and surely people hearing how familiar and interactive the drivers were - and the teams - in today's rigid fan unfriendly environment can only wonder.

I think that Ronnie Peterson, just like Gilles Villeneuve, would not like f1 as it is today.

Thanks. Yes, that was also a 11th September which is impossible to forget, I still have the picture of the accident a day before in my mind as it was in yesterday and it will be there for ever.

Ronnie was not only a talent driver but also a friendly person and I think that’s the reason why so many people still remember him - also outside the sport.

I agree that F1 is not any more what it used to be – today there uppers a scandal after scandal and everything goes after money, money, money…. Peoples who has hundred millions (or billions) wants more money, more and more… one foot in the grave but they still want MORE MONEY

Yes you are right – it’s not the same any more …

[ioan]

Fisi just threw into the wall. :s

[truefan72]

fisi!!!! noooo

just waht the team did not need, man I really wanted him to do well

[truefan72]

wow Force india!

mercedes domination.

BMW looking good,

man qualy is going to be tight!

[Saint Devote]

Thanks. Yes, that was also a 11th September which is impossible to forget, I still have the picture of the accident a day before in my mind as it was in yesterday and it will be there for ever.

Ronnie was not only a talent driver but also a friendly person and I think that’s the reason why so many people still remember him - also outside the sport.

I agree that F1 is not any more what it used to be – today there uppers a scandal after scandal and everything goes after money, money, money…. Peoples who has hundred millions (or billions) wants more money, more and more… one foot in the grave but they still want MORE MONEY

Yes you are right – it’s not the same any more …

Yes Indeed :) .
I to remember that day. I was doing military service at the time and it left me just stunned and saddened. Sweden lost another driver in 1978, that had potential to become great, and that was Gunnar Nilsson who drove the Lotus.

He won the Belgian GP the year before in the rain - there is a great picture of the Sedes and Lauda on that 1977 Zolder podium laughing. It must be the only time on a podium that they were pictured.

My all time favorite driver is Jody Scheckter and Sweden was good to him because he won his first GP at Anderstorp and then he won in 1976 in the Tyrrell P34.

This is supposed to be a world championship - because of the high costs there are no grands prix in places like Scandinavia and Africa or North America and only one in South America, this is not the way f1 ought to be.

[N. Jones]

Wow - Sutil top the practice sheets twice (I believe)? Heidfeld is up there too??

My FGP team might actually do something this weekend! :laugh:

[Saint Devote]

Not qualifying yet - But suddenly Badoer does not look all that bad because Fisichella looks even worse.

A current, albeit second string driver finding difficulty with the Ferrari.

Jenson looking great :-]]]

But qualifying is the time that counts..........

Christian Horner knows where he can put his next can of Red Bull.......!

[ioan]

Fisi get's into Q2. And is not that far off Kimi's time as Badoer was in his first qualifying session.

[pettersolberg29]

Oh poo..

(see sig)

[SGWilko]

So, as I understand it;

BMW gave up on KERS, but were its biggest advocate,

Can't build a good car,

Can't develop well in season,

And have fragile motors.

Pulling was the right thing, perhaps a year or two too late though to save face. ;)

[UltimateDanGTR]

and we wonder why bmw are leaving.....

[SGWilko]

and we wonder why bmw are leaving.....

Not any more, as it is all becoming clear.

I bet Frank and Patrick have wry smiles on their faces now.

What goes around comes around Mario.

[pettersolberg29]

Harsh I think to both of you above.

I know engine problems are embarassing, especially to both cars, but Kubica and particularly Heidfeld looked really good this weekend - both should have got into Q3 and possibly points scoring positions by raceday tomorrow.

[SGWilko]

Harsh I think to both of you above.

I know engine problems are embarassing, especially to both cars, but Kubica and particularly Heidfeld looked really good this weekend - both should have got into Q3 and possibly points scoring positions by raceday tomorrow.

Truth hurts. I am still bitter at the treatment of Williams at the hands of BMW (Mario).

I firmly believe that you reap what you sew.

All that hoo ha when BMW were engine supplier to Franks team - 'ooh oooh, our engines are great, but our partners car is 5h!t.

Well, Mario, not only is YOUR car a pile of poo, so was your KERS and your ever so great engines make the Yamaha and the Peugeot (2004 vintage) look the epitimy of reliability.

Sorry, bit of a rant, but I feel better now.

[pettersolberg29]

I disagree - but I'm glad you got it off your chest!

[ioan]

I bet Frank and Patrick have wry smiles on their faces now.

Exactly what one would expect from these two. :\



What goes around comes around Mario.

Mario is the one in charge of the team not the one who takes the BMW board decisions, sadly I would say cause he is pretty much one of the few team bosses with common sense.

[ioan]

Truth hurts. I am still bitter at the treatment of Williams at the hands of BMW (Mario).

It really wasn't and isn't Mario Theissen who decides BMW's policies.
Pinning all the blame on one guy, the one who had no word in the end, is not exactly fair.

Anyway this isn't what this thread should be about.
Worse part about the BMW engines breaking down is that Heidfeld's engine was a brand new one.

[SGWilko]

I disagree - but I'm glad you got it off your chest!

I am sure Mario is a very nice chap. :)

[pettersolberg29]

Mario is the one in charge of the team not the one who takes the BMW board decisions, sadly I would say cause he is pretty much one of the few team bosses with common sense.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[SGWilko]

It really wasn't and isn't Mario Theissen who decides BMW's policies.
Pinning all the blame on one guy, the one who had no word in the end, is not exactly fair.

Oh, alright. I shall stand in the corner for the rest of qualifying, facing the wall with the sound turned off!!!! ;)

[pettersolberg29]

Well done Sutil - love it!

[ioan]

Oh, alright. I shall stand in the corner for the rest of qualifying, facing the wall with the sound turned off!!!! ;)

That was short! Lucky you! ;)

[SGWilko]

Well done Sutil - love it!

Amen to that.

How many Merc powered cars in the top ten?

[ioan]

Great showing from Sutil.
Hamilton very fast again, and good performance by Kimi to break what was looking like a Mercedes whitewash of the qualifying session.

[SGWilko]

That was short! Lucky you! ;)

I won't lie, I forgot to turn the sound off, and I lost my way to the corner, so I gave up and carried on watching.

I am so radical... :rotflmao:

[ioan]

Amen to that.

How many Merc powered cars in the top ten?

All 6 of them are in top 7, only the Ferrari engine seems to be able to keep close to the Mercedes power, with Renault and Toyota being underpowered and the BMW too fragile even if powerful enough.

[ioan]

I won't lie, I forgot to turn the sound off, and I lost my way to the corner, so I gave up and carried on watching.

I am so radical... :rotflmao:

:D

[pettersolberg29]

Kimi is certainly getting his act together in the last few races - maybe he's been told that if he performs well enough he'll stay at Ferrari and Massa may be in danger from Alonso?
Who knows, but Kimi certainly is looking good.

[SGWilko]

All 6 of them are in top 7.

Shoot, the marketing dept christmas do in studgart (spelling?) this year will be a good event - bratwerst and beer in large glasses with the mother of frothy heads all round!!!! :D

[SGWilko]

Kimi is certainly getting his act together in the last few races - maybe he's been told that if he performs well enough he'll

....get free Grappa for life????

[ioan]

Kimi is certainly getting his act together in the last few races - maybe he's been told that if he performs well enough he'll stay at Ferrari and Massa may be in danger from Alonso?
Who knows, but Kimi certainly is looking good.

Strange that he only came good once Massa was in hospital.
IMO Kimi has been flattered by having Badoer for a team mate and now with Fisi at his first contact with the car.

If Kimi stays IMO it will be because Ferrari and his management didn't agree on a sensible good bye package.
He's been way to inconsistent these last 2 seasons. Who can guarantee to Ferrari that after they confirm him for next season he won't start napping again?

[truefan72]

wow what a qualy!

I am so impressed and happy for Force India, it is an absolute joy to see them drag themselves up to contender status. reminds me of STR last year. let's hope the stewards don't ruin things.

Liuzzi coming through very, very well. Above and beyond my expectations. To me I wonder if Fisi is rethinking his switch. then again, kimi is up there and the car has kers, so to me he did a poor job.

I hope we see a great race tomorrow

[truefan72]

All 6 of them are in top 7, only the Ferrari engine seems to be able to keep close to the Mercedes power, with Renault and Toyota being underpowered and the BMW too fragile even if powerful enough.

lol, good for Ferrari, keepin them honest

[veeten]

... see the ice cream truck make its glorious return? ;)

[ioan]

Shoot, the marketing dept christmas do in studgart (spelling?) this year will be a good event - bratwerst and beer in large glasses with the mother of frothy heads all round!!!! :D

Stuttgart that is and they have great bratwurst around there. :D

PS: :eek: Interesting enough the FireFox spellchecker know these words too, even if it's set on English!

[veeten]

Damn!! Sutil nearly takes it! :eek: :D

Looks like that Force India becomes the scourge of the weekend, yet again. ;) :D

[SGWilko]

What a great season this is turning out to be (in respect of racing that is). Who wrote the script? ;)

[VkmSpouge]

Lewis Hamilton taking pole because of the two stop strategy. He will really have to go hard early on to beat the Brawns but I reckon he can do it. The Brawns are clearly quick though while their main championship rivals in Red Bull are struggling.

Adrian Sutil is going to be mugged by KERS cars at the start of the race but he had a really good qualifying. His team mate, Vitantonio Liuzzi was also very impressive getting 7th place.

Bit of a turn around for Toro Rosso, from winning here in 2008 to back of the grid for 2009.

[ioan]

Let's wait for the weights to be published, there might be further surprises in there.

BTW, poor showing by RBR, that Renault engine is biting Newey's behind big time. The Ferrari one would have kept them in the championship hunt this season.

[jens]

As expected, Hamilton is the favourite for the race win. :p : And hopefully Sutil will keep his cool in the race! Very impressive comeback by Liuzzi. :up: He was clearly behind Sutil in Q3 (fuel loads?), but pretty much matched him in Q1-Q2. Shame that RBR has been struggling so much - it looks like their title hopes are becoming really slim. Fisichella - kinda expected that he's gonna struggle in his first race weekend for Ferrari a bit, but at least he is significantly better than Badoer. ;)

When last year there were complaints that Renault is underpowered, then it seems now it's a similar case with Toyota. Both of their teams are nowhere - considering that, Trulli did well to get P11. In contrast Mercedes seems to confirm the superiority of their engines - 6 cars in Top7 - so the engines are not equal with the help of "freeze" despite FIA's "best" attempts? :p : Also like RBR-Renault BMW powerplant has reliability issues and I suspect Kubica might suffer +10 positions somewhere at the end of the season as well. He has had engine failures earlier this year on multiple occasions - for example in Malaysia engine expired already in lap2.

[DexDexter]

Great qualifying by Kimi, Sutil, Liuzzi and of course Hamilton. Heikki said he's much heavier than Hamilton.


....get free Grappa for life????

Grappa? Why on earth would Kimi need to drink Grappa?? :D

[DexDexter]

....get free Grappa for life????

Grappa? Why on earth would Kimi need to drink Grappa?? :D

[SGWilko]

Renault engine is biting Newey's behind big time. The Ferrari one would have kept them in the championship hunt this season.

Cough - Force India used to have Ferrari power and were at the back of the grid, but don't any more and aren't any more - cough. ;)

Nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean???? :laugh:

[pettersolberg29]

How many people now have no new engines left?

Kubica
Heidfeld
Vettel

Anyone else?

[truefan72]

Let's wait for the weights to be published, there might be further surprises in there.

BTW, poor showing by RBR, that Renault engine is biting Newey's behind big time. The Ferrari one would have kept them in the championship hunt this season.

to be honest I think their engine woes are directly related to the leaving of Geoffrey Willis who made sure that things were not compromised with the overall car. zero engine problems before he left. Newey is notorious for his overdesigned cars to the detriment of their reliability and now that he won out over willis at RBR, they are paying the price for his usual dismissive attitude towards compromise and balance in the race car. Newy unchecked is a guarantee for car breakdowns.

That Renault engine is normally very reliable, but like anything severely compromised, will fail. That's why I don;t think that mercedes are too keen on delivering engines to RBR as long as Newey is left unchecked. I'd rather see them give it to williams.

[SGWilko]

for example in Malaysia engine expired already in lap2.

It gave up off the line.

[Koz]

Kimi with a red bull?
Surely this is a sign of thing to come.

I said it first.

[veeten]

The way the teams were running in the last two qualifying sessions, the race could very much finish an all-Merc podium.

The question will be, which team takes 2 out of 3 spots,... McLaren, Brawn, or Force India?

[pettersolberg29]

I'd say:
Kimi
Button
Rubens

[SGWilko]

Kimi with a red bull?
Surely this is a sign of thing to come.

I said it first.

Rename the team Vodka Red Bull, he may drive for nowt!!! :D

[SGWilko]

The way the teams were running in the last two qualifying sessions, the race could very much finish an all-Merc podium.

The question will be, which team takes 2 out of 3 spots,... McLaren, Brawn, or Force India?

Let's have one of each. Merc then can claim podium from all of its partner teams. Might need some laderhosen and young women for that Christmas bash as well....... :laugh:

[jens]

Mm, prediction for tomorrow?

1 Hamilton
2 Räikkönen
3 a Brawn

That's a guess before fuel loads. :p : I suspect Sutil will be passed by Kimi's KERS at the start and after that his race is compromised.

[DexDexter]

Mm, prediction for tomorrow?

1 Hamilton
2 Räikkönen
3 a Brawn

That's a guess before fuel loads. :p : I suspect Sutil will be passed by Kimi's KERS at the start and after that his race is compromised.

I suspect Sutil will hit either Kimi or Lewis. Let's hope I'm wrong, it's just a feeling.

[veeten]

... and all the last few weeks, Ferrari was lobbying for 3-car teams

Looks like Mercedes will do some damage on Ferrari's "home turf" with, essentially, a 6-car team (Brawn, Force India, McLaren).

Oh, the irony... ;) :p :

[keysersoze]

Force India were always going to be stronger at the low-downforce track, but I believe Monza is the last one of the year. It will be interesting to see if FI can make it into Q3 after this race. But for this race only, Fisichella was likely to be behind his old team because of his learning curve.

[ioan]

Cough - Force India used to have Ferrari power and were at the back of the grid, but don't any more and aren't any more - cough. ;)

Nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean???? :laugh:

No not really.
What engine did the STR have last year?
And where were Force India with the McLaren engine a few races ago? At the back of the field.

So, what were you saying again?! :p :

[ioan]

... and all the last few weeks, Ferrari was lobbying for 3-car teams

Looks like Mercedes will do some damage on Ferrari's "home turf" with, essentially, a 6-car team (Brawn, Force India, McLaren).

Oh, the irony... ;) :p :

Let's wait for the end of the race before jumping to conclusions.

[christophulus]

Raikkonen's done a good job again in P3 - looks like a good fight between him and Hamilton for the win. Brawn look good too, I'm hoping Red Bull are heavy or else it's pretty much game over for them. And good job Liuzzi - first race in two years and sticks it in 7th.

Also, the stewards aren't looking too favourably on cutting chicanes - if a driver cuts it three times during the race they get a drive through, even if there's no advantage gained.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/ita09_document_19.pdf

[Sonic]

Also, the stewards aren't looking too favourably on cutting chicanes - if a driver cuts it three times during the race they get a drive through, even if there's no advantage gained.

And about blinking time too! Once upon a time if you went of the track you were in the gravel or at best some slippy grass, now its probably faster to straight line the first turn and wiggle through the barriers.

[ioan]

The FIA are taking more and more time to release the car weights with every race that goes by.

[Sonic]

The FIA are taking more and more time to release the car weights with every race that goes by.

Annoying, isn't it!!!! :mad:

[Sonic]

Although it is giving me the chance to watch the replay of the GP2 race. Excellent fun!!! :D

[ioan]

Annoying, isn't it!!!! :mad:

It should have been 2 hours after the end of Q3, it's already 3 hours and 30minutes since then.

[DexDexter]

Car weights, come on!!!!

[SGWilko]

It should have been 2 hours after the end of Q3, it's already 3 hours and 30minutes since then.

I bet Charly Farley has put the 'AA' batteries in the scales the wrong way round again?

[ioan]

Here you go:



The weights of the cars at the start of the 2009 Italian Grand Prix will be:
*declared weight
Number Car Driver Weight [kg]
01 McLaren Mercedes Lewis Hamilton 653.5
02 McLaren Mercedes Heikki Kovalainen 683.0
03 Ferrari Giancarlo Fisichella 690.0*
04 Ferrari Kimi Räikkönen 662.0
05 BMW Sauber Robert Kubica 697.5*
06 BMW Sauber Nick Heidfeld 697.5*
07 Renault Fernando Alonso 677.5
08 Renault Romain Grosjean 699.8*
09 Toyota Jarno Trulli 703.0*
10 Toyota Timo Glock 709.8*
11 STR Ferrari Jaime Alguersuari 706.0*
12 STR Ferrari Sébastien Buemi 706.0*
14 RBR Renault Mark Webber 683.0
15 RBR Renault Sebastian Vettel 682.0
16 Williams Toyota Nico Rosberg 708.6*
17 Williams Toyota Kazuki Nakajima 706.2*
20 Force India Mercedes Adrian Sutil 655.0
21 Force India Mercedes Vitantonio Liuzzi 679.5
22 Brawn Mercedes Jenson Button 687.0
23 Brawn Mercedes Rubens Barrichello 688.5


Lewy is the lightest in the top 10 followed by Sutil.
On the other hand Heiki was driving a tanker and Kimi is looking good for a podium at least.
Red Bull should have tried with a bit less fuel maybe.

[christophulus]

Fuel weights!

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/09/12/italian-gp-fuel-weights-strategy/

Hamilton light, Sutil light, Kovalainen looking pretty strong. Red Bulls with less fuel than the Brawns.

[jens]

Interesting that only Top3 has opted for a 2-stop strategy. Although 1 pitstop has often been a preferred strategy at Monza. For instance in 2008 the 2-stoppers were quali's Top4 and 6th (Massa) man. Considering that Bourdais stalled on the grid, then the rest of the two-stoppers ended in 1st, 2nd, 6th and 8th.

Lewis' advantage in quali was "merely" 0,8 secs ahead of the first 'heavy car' of HK though. Can the Top3 drive into the distance and create enough gap to keep their positions after pitstops? With Heikki well-placed to start blocking drivers behind him in order to help Lewis, it seems feasible. :p :

[SGWilko]

Interesting that only Top3 has opted for a 2-stop strategy. Although 1 pitstop has often been a preferred strategy at Monza. For instance in 2008 the 2-stoppers were quali's Top4 and 6th (Massa) man. Considering that Bourdais stalled on the grid, then the rest of the two-stoppers ended in 1st, 2nd, 6th and 8th.

Lewis' advantage in quali was "merely" 0,8 secs ahead of the first 'heavy car' of HK though. Can the Top3 drive into the distance and create enough gap to keep their positions after pitstops? With Heikki well-placed to start blocking drivers behind him in order to help Lewis, it seems feasible. :p :

There is a 'chance' of rain, so perhaps the two stoppers are hedging their bets.

Or NPKSNr is advising the strategists.... :laugh:

[Sonic]

So the RBR's and the Brawns have basically tanked it. So unless it pours Vettel and Webs are screwed - hell they might even have Fisi bomb past them down to turn 1!

[ioan]

So the RBR's and the Brawns have basically tanked it. So unless it pours Vettel and Webs are screwed - hell they might even have Fisi bomb past them down to turn 1!

Turn one will certainly be interesting tomorrow. I predict Liuzzi making the race exciting in that first corner tomorrow.

[ioan]

There is a 'chance' of rain, so perhaps the two stoppers are hedging their bets.

Only 20% and even if it rains it will be only towards the end of the race.

[DexDexter]

Interesting that only Top3 has opted for a 2-stop strategy. Although 1 pitstop has often been a preferred strategy at Monza. For instance in 2008 the 2-stoppers were quali's Top4 and 6th (Massa) man. Considering that Bourdais stalled on the grid, then the rest of the two-stoppers ended in 1st, 2nd, 6th and 8th.

Lewis' advantage in quali was "merely" 0,8 secs ahead of the first 'heavy car' of HK though. Can the Top3 drive into the distance and create enough gap to keep their positions after pitstops? With Heikki well-placed to start blocking drivers behind him in order to help Lewis, it seems feasible. :p :

Heikki was better in qualifying than Hamilton this time around. I do fear that Heikki's race pace will once again be inconstintent which will play into hands of Lewis.

[UltimateDanGTR]

blimey, kovy was on fire in quali 3! Looks like the red bulls are one stopping despite going shorter than the brawns, looks like a brawn win IMO. unless Raikkonen or Hamilton can pull something out of the bag. I would include sutil in that, but those KERS are gonna have one hell-of-an advantage at the start

[SGWilko]

blimey, kovy was on fire in quali 3! Looks like the red bulls are one stopping despite going shorter than the brawns, looks like a brawn win IMO. unless Raikkonen or Hamilton can pull something out of the bag. I would include sutil in that, but those KERS are gonna have one hell-of-an advantage at the start

Could be a cracker of a race. Lets hope so. :)

[DexDexter]

blimey, kovy was on fire in quali 3! Looks like the red bulls are one stopping despite going shorter than the brawns, looks like a brawn win IMO. unless Raikkonen or Hamilton can pull something out of the bag. I would include sutil in that, but those KERS are gonna have one hell-of-an advantage at the start

The problem for Brawn is that they may not be able to run in clean air, there is a great risk that they cannot use their speed and are held up by, for example, KERS car of Alonso.

[VkmSpouge]

Looks like this race will be split in two between the three light drivers and the three heavy drivers.

[Sonic]

I'm gonna put my money on a Kovy win tomorrow. He's heavy, he's close to the front, he's got KERS, oh and he's looking for a job - no better motivation.

[DexDexter]

I'm gonna put my money on a Kovy win tomorrow. He's heavy, he's close to the front, he's got KERS, oh and he's looking for a job - no better motivation.

And he is a very nice guy. :up:

[ioan]

looks like a brawn win IMO.

Difficult IMO, they have Heikki in front of them armed with KERS and one stopping too.

[SGWilko]

The problem for Brawn is that they may not be able to run in clean air, there is a great risk that they cannot use their speed and are held up by, for example, KERS car of Alonso.

Good point, but, if that is the case, and IF they can save fuel and not ruin the tyres, when the two stoppers pit, they can make hay while the sun shines. Or will it be too late by then?

[jens]

IMO the favourite for the win is still Hamilton or maybe Räikkönen, not Kovalainen/Brawn that are suggested here. LH needs to drive at least 1 sec per lap faster than HK and I think that would be enough (0,8s was the gap in quali, so achievable). With such lap-time advantage Hamilton's advantage would be already over 15 seconds by the time of first pitstop (also taking into account that on Lap1 the field gets spread out). So at worst case scenario after the first stop he might still drop slightly behind HK & Co, but he still has time to open a bigger gap before the second stop. Last year Vettel was so fast with his light fuel-load that he managed to stay ahead of all 1-stoppers after his first stop.

[DexDexter]

Good point, but, if that is the case, and IF they can save fuel and not ruin the tyres, when the two stoppers pit, they can make hay while the sun shines. Or will it be too late by then?

Difficult to say. It should be a great race, although Monza races have often been a bit dull, follow my leader closely-type.


IMO the favourite for the win is still Hamilton or maybe Räikkönen, not Kovalainen/Brawn that are suggested here. LH needs to drive at least 1 sec per lap faster than HK and I think that would be enough (0,8s was the gap in quali, so achievable). With such lap-time advantage Hamilton's advantage would be already over 15 seconds by the time of first pitstop (also taking into account that on Lap1 the field gets spread out). So at worst case scenario after the first stop he might still drop slightly behind HK & Co, but he still has time to open a bigger gap before the second stop. Last year Vettel was so fast with his light fuel-load that he managed to stay ahead of all 1-stoppers after his first stop.

You are not taking into account the possibility that Hamilton will very probably come into traffic of one stoppers after his first stop. That can ruin his strategy.

[DexDexter]

IMO the favourite for the win is still Hamilton or maybe Räikkönen, not Kovalainen/Brawn that are suggested here. LH needs to drive at least 1 sec per lap faster than HK and I think that would be enough (0,8s was the gap in quali, so achievable). With such lap-time advantage Hamilton's advantage would be already over 15 seconds by the time of first pitstop (also taking into account that on Lap1 the field gets spread out). So at worst case scenario after the first stop he might still drop slightly behind HK & Co, but he still has time to open a bigger gap before the second stop. Last year Vettel was so fast with his light fuel-load that he managed to stay ahead of all 1-stoppers after his first stop.

You are not into account the fact that Hamilton will very probably come into traffic of one stoppers after his first stop. That can ruin his strategy.

[jens]

You are not taking into account the fact that Hamilton will very probably come into traffic of one stoppers after his first stop. That can ruin his strategy.

Into traffic behind who? If LH drops behind the leader by 5 secs after his stop (entirely possible if he has an advantage of 15+ secs before pitstops), then I can't see him being held up significantly. Because whoever has managed to stay within 5 seconds of the leading 1-stopper by 15th-20th lap, can't be that slow. And Hamilton just has to wait for the pitstops of those, who are right in front of him, before starting to push again.

Hamilton's main danger is that someone's (like Brawn's) race pace is better than it appeared in qualifying plus they have to clear Kovalainen or whoever could be holding them up and not letting 2-stoppers far ahead before their stops. But the biggest danger for LH is his own cock-up in Turn1 (like in Germany) or something like that. :p :

[ioan]

Last year Vettel was so fast with his light fuel-load that he managed to stay ahead of all 1-stoppers after his first stop.

That was also because it was wet and he was the master of the conditions.

[DexDexter]

Into traffic behind who? If LH drops behind the leader by 5 secs after his stop (entirely possible if he has an advantage of 15+ secs before pitstops), then I can't see him being held up significantly. Because whoever has managed to stay within 5 seconds of the leading 1-stopper by 15th-20th lap, can't be that slow. And Hamilton just has to wait for the pitstops of those, who are right in front of him, before starting to push again.

Hamilton's main danger is that someone's (like Brawn's) race pace is better than it appeared in qualifying plus they have to clear Kovalainen or whoever could be holding them up and not letting 2-stoppers far ahead before their stops. But the biggest danger for LH is his own cock-up in Turn1 (like in Germany) or something like that. :p :

Kimi's also a threat because if Hamilton is held up even a slight amount, Kimi can put in some good laps at the front, if the car is close enough to Mclaren, that is.

[jens]

Kimi's also a threat because if Hamilton is held up even a slight amount, Kimi can put in some good laps at the front, if the car is close enough to Mclaren that is.

True and especially taking into account that Ferrari's race-pace is usually better than quali-pace. ;)

Sutil will have a really crucial start though - it's not entirely impossible that also Kovalainen can get ahead of him with KERS and if that happens Adrian's race is over.

[Sleeper]

Interestingly, fuel corrected, Kovy, Rubens, Hamilton and Button were all covered by 0.07s (in that order). I'm not convinced that Kovaleinen can win this as he's not really shown that he can maintain that kind of pace over a race distance, but with the other three, game on!

[F1boat]

I have the feeling that Jenson will win...

[N. Jones]

Argh, spoke to soon!! Go away BMW, you are destroying my team and all of the faith I had in you! :D

[truefan72]

Heikki was better in qualifying than Hamilton this time around. I do fear that Heikki's race pace will once again be inconstintent which will play into hands of Lewis.

yep

first corner is going to be critical. for that matter , the first lap.

[Saint Devote]

This definitely the most interesting grid from a race strategy point. Could be a real cracker tomorrow!

Based on the weights it would have been the talk of the grand prix if Hamilton had not made pole position. I guess they expect him to do qualifying laps and scoot off into the distance.

So pleased Jenson is where he is - filled and ready.

I feel so sorry for the BMW guys - not the drivers, but the team. They are all working without knowing if they will have jobs in racing come the end of the season and unlike Honda, BMW are being a real bunch of s over the team. Kudos to Peter Sauber for trying to save his team.

And to have these problems when they are in such limbo - the allnighter to get ready for tomorrow's grand prix cannot have come at a more disconsolate time.

Don't know what to make of Fisichella - but he did get out of Q1 and that is good. Lets see until after the race because he surely has to be in the rare good driver Fisi mode and the race is where he can really do something. Nice if he does well.

On reflection, yes Badoer was out of his depth but compared to Fisichella's performance he was not as bad as the hacks in the media made out.

Liuzzi definitely deserves his chance - super performance. Which makes me think that Bourdais should get a chance with another team. But Liuzzi is also a changed driver from the silly Torro Rosso days.

Mallya was really chuffed - first time two FI cars in Q1 and only the super light KERS assisted car driven by a great driver, Hamilton, beat him. Sutil has to be proud of his achievement.

[Saint Devote]

Argh, spoke to soon!! Go away BMW, you are destroying my team and all of the faith I had in you! :D

BMW really have destroyed what was a wonderful racing team named Sauber.

Pity it had not been Audi...... Now THAT is a corporate giant with the soul of a racing team.

[Saint Devote]

I have the feeling that Jenson will win...

:eek: Now you've gone and done it!!

[Saint Devote]

And about blinking time too! Once upon a time if you went of the track you were in the gravel or at best some slippy grass, now its probably faster to straight line the first turn and wiggle through the barriers.

Absolutely agree with you!

[Valve Bounce]

Looking at the weights, it will be a very interesting race. I notice that Sutil is on 655 while Liuzzi is on 679. In fact the first three cars on the grid will possibly have one more pit stop than the rest of the field.

For example, if they come out after their 1 stop behind Trulli, then they are in deep poo poo if they are held up for a few laps.

So! looking at the weights, I would say that Kovi and the two Brawns are looking very good (although they are talking about Rubens having to change his gear box.)


1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 653.5
2. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 655.0
3. Raikkonen Ferrari 662.0
4. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 683.0
5. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes 688.5
6. Button Brawn-Mercedes 687.0
7. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 679.5
8. Alonso Renault 677.5
9. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 682.0
10. Webber Red Bull-Renault 683.0
11. Trulli Toyota 703.0*
12. Grosjean Renault 699.8*
13. Kubica BMW-Sauber 697.5*
14. Fisichella Ferrari 690.0*
15. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber 697.5*
16. Glock Toyota 709.8*
17. Nakajima Williams-Toyota 706.2*
18. Rosberg Williams-Toyota 708.6*
19. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 706.0*
20. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 706.0*

[airshifter]

With the tire rules now in place, I'm surprised more people haven't opted for a 2 stopper really. It's rare that cars perform similar times on both compounds used in any given race, and a long stint on less than optimal tires can kill you at Monza.

My prediction....

1. Lewis
2. Kimi
3. Rubens

I think Kimi's only chance of getting past Lewis will be quick in laps before the stop, but the Mclaren seems so well balanced I don't think the Ferrari can match it in race pace.

[DexDexter]

With the tire rules now in place, I'm surprised more people haven't opted for a 2 stopper really. It's rare that cars perform similar times on both compounds used in any given race, and a long stint on less than optimal tires can kill you at Monza.

My prediction....

1. Lewis
2. Kimi
3. Rubens

I think Kimi's only chance of getting past Lewis will be quick in laps before the stop, but the Mclaren seems so well balanced I don't think the Ferrari can match it in race pace.

My prediction:

1. Lewis
2. Rubens
3. Kimi
4. Heikki

I'm hoping for a Finnish victory but realistically that is not going to happen. Button will have a crash with another car in the first lap, as will Sutil.

[paddocknews]

Barrichello facing 5-place grid drop
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/09/13/barrichello-facing-5-place-grid-drop/

[F1boat]

Yes. I have a good feeling about Jenson and hopefully he will start to extend his lead again. Although I'd love Kimi to win again...

[ioan]

Barrichello facing 5-place grid drop
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/09/13/barrichello-facing-5-place-grid-drop/

He really has no luck. All the malfunctions in the team seem to hit his car only. :s

[Dave B]

Here's the fuel adjusted grid, by the way:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/f1mole/2009/09/bbc-sports-fueladjusted-italia.html

1 Kovalainen (lap 28)
2 Rubens Barrichello +0.016secs (lap 30)
3 Lewis Hamilton +0.047secs (lap 16)
4 Jenson Button +0.073 (lap 29)
5 Adrian Sutil +0.200 (lap 17)
6 Kimi Raikkonen +0.266 (lap 19)
7 Vitantonio Liuzzi +0.296 (lap 27)
8 Sebastian Vettel +0.363 (lap 27)
9 Fernando Alonso +0.381 (lap 26)
10 Mark Webber +0.469 (lap 28)

[ozrevhead]

Here's the fuel adjusted grid, by the way:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/f1mole/2009/09/bbc-sports-fueladjusted-italia.html

1 Kovalainen (lap 28)
2 Rubens Barrichello +0.016secs (lap 30)
3 Lewis Hamilton +0.047secs (lap 16)
4 Jenson Button +0.073 (lap 29)
5 Adrian Sutil +0.200 (lap 17)
6 Kimi Raikkonen +0.266 (lap 19)
7 Vitantonio Liuzzi +0.296 (lap 27)
8 Sebastian Vettel +0.363 (lap 27)
9 Fernando Alonso +0.381 (lap 26)
10 Mark Webber +0.469 (lap 28)
Thanks for that

unless it rains or a first corner pile up we can safely say RB/Renault will have once again screwed over their Drivers' Championship chances

not happy!

[christophulus]

Barrichello facing 5-place grid drop
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/09/13/barrichello-facing-5-place-grid-drop/

...or not http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78591

They've decided against changing it (the same one that got roasted at the end of the last GP), but that means there's doubts over it lasting the distance. Can't win either way!

[jens]

Fuel adjusted grids are always a bit misleading. Likewise the calculated first pitstops according to weights. For example at Spa Fisichella was supposed to pit a couple of laps before Kimi according to fuel loads, but in reality they pitted on the same lap.

[Daniel]

Am I the only one who thinks the FIA is clearly favouring Hamilton for not penalising him for impeding Buemi's lap? :p

[SGWilko]

Am I the only one who thinks the FIA is clearly favouring Hamilton for not penalising him for impeding Buemi's lap? :p

Yes.

[Mauri A]

Am I the only one who thinks the FIA is clearly favouring Hamilton for not penalising him for impeding Buemi's lap? :p

No, you aren´t.

[SGWilko]

No, you aren´t.

Ooohhhhhh yes he IS.......

[Daniel]

Yes.
Tbh it IS a little strange. Others have been penalised for far less though to be fair Buemi wasn't going to go any faster.

[SGWilko]

Tbh it IS a little strange. .

Compared to the RIDICULOUS penalty Alonso was handed down which thank goodness did not set a precedent it isn't.

Lewis was on the right, the STR on the left.

They were both wrong place wrong time.

Simples. :)

[Dave B]

I could play the national anthem better by squeezing out farts in the bath :s

[Daniel]

You made Caroline LOL Dave :p

[Daniel]

Hamilton.... Doh! Such a pity

[ioan]

Hamilton.... Doh! Such a pity

Especially that it was the last lap and he wouldn't have passed Button as he was 1.5 seconds behind.

[ioan]

Boring race, but for the first few laps and the Toyota duels.

[Daniel]

Well part of me wonders if something broke on the car. Great win for Rubens though :)

[F1boat]

The race was very cool for me, very dramatic with all the chaos with Sutil and Kimi in the pits and the strategy duel between Brawn GP and McLaren...

[Giuseppe F1]

How come Peter Windsor is back asking the questions in the press conference this weekend.......isnt James Allen in Italy for this race??

[N. Jones]

Can anyone tell me who had the fastest lap of the race?

[ioan]

Can anyone tell me who had the fastest lap of the race?

Not sure but I think Sutil with a 1:24.7xx.
The info is not yet up on the FIA site.

[Ranger]

Can anyone tell me who had the fastest lap of the race?

Sutil did.

[gm99]

@ N. Jones:

Adrian Sutil (1:24,739)

[AndyL]

With the tire rules now in place, I'm surprised more people haven't opted for a 2 stopper really. It's rare that cars perform similar times on both compounds used in any given race, and a long stint on less than optimal tires can kill you at Monza.

Interesting that it didn't turn out that way today - the two tyres were as close to equal as they have been all year. The two Brawns were on different tyres the whole race but there was nothing between them in lap times.

[AndyL]

Am I the only one who thinks the FIA is clearly favouring Hamilton for not penalising him for impeding Buemi's lap? :p

AIUI the balked driver's team needs to lodge a protest, Lewis should be very grateful to Torro Rosso that they chose not to do so.

[truefan72]

eh, it was a tough ending for hamilton, but thats 2009.
kivoy was useless- I guess kers works for everyone except kovy
RBR is going backwards
Sutil and Kimi did very well.
Toyota drivers were fun to watch

[VkmSpouge]

Well done to Rubens Barrichello for a superb win. A great job all weekend. Jenson Button also doing well in second. Brawn look set to take the championships.

Shame for Lewis Hamilton to crash out at the end. Kimi Raikkonen took a nice third though again KERS kept him ahead of the Force India. Sutil and Liuzzi did pretty well.

Red Bull's championship hopes now almost over.

The two Toyota drivers providing great comedy together.

[Saint Devote]

I enjoyed this grand prix.

Best moment of the race: seeing daddy Hamilton's face when golden boy Lewis threw it into the wall at Lesmo 1 on the last lap!!!

I think the Speed commentators were as confused as ever because in their eyes Hamilton has to be defended at all costs - the excuses as to how it happened flew fast and thick. Hamilton messing up? Impossible!!!

Messages about Vettel and Hamilton: neither of them are Schumachers!

Wonder if Chrs Horner is going to open a big mouth now? I do not think so.

How can anyone not smile when Rubens wins?
Kewl result for Jenson - between teammates now.

Fisichella no better than Badoer really. Lets see what happens at Yas Marina. That car is a point scoring one and to be beaten by those ahead of him with a KERS system at a circuit he knows better than most? Unacceptable.

The Monza grand prix gets shorter and shorter each year - this year just over 1hr 16m. Its time to extend this race and stop ripping us off.

[mstillhere]

I have said before and I am going to say it again. Nobody gets out my mind that Kimi's "underperformances" are directly linked to Ferrari favouring Massa, for some stupid reason. And what makes Kimi's high performaces more interesting is that are coming at a time when Ferrari stopped developping the actual car. Can you imagine what he would have been to accomplish otherwise?

[mstillhere]

I enjoyed this grand prix.

Best moment of the race: seeing daddy Hamilton's face when golden boy Lewis threw it into the wall at Lesmo 1 on the last lap!!!

I think the Speed commentators were as confused as ever because in their eyes Hamilton has to be defended at all costs - the excuses as to how it happened flew fast and thick. Hamilton messing up? Impossible!!!
.

I feel exactly the same way.

[Saint Devote]

Interesting that it didn't turn out that way today - the two tyres were as close to equal as they have been all year. The two Brawns were on different tyres the whole race but there was nothing between them in lap times.

Well, first a chassis that does not destroy tyres is required.

Then there are two drivers that drive well, especially Button where the CEO of Bridgestone's racing division said a while back at how incredibly gentle Jenson is on his tyres.

The KERS is not good for tyre longevity - it increases rear tyre wear significantly.

Then combine that with a strategy genius like Ross Brawn and winning is the only "option"! :vader:

[Dave B]

AIUI the balked driver's team needs to lodge a protest, Lewis should be very grateful to Torro Rosso that they chose not to do so.
The stewards did look at the incident but decided on no action.

Both drivers were summoned to see the race stewards after qualifying and, following their explanations, it was decided that the incident required no further action.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78561

[F1boat]

I have said before and I am going to say it again. Nobody gets out my mind that Kimi's "underperformances" are directly linked to Ferrari favouring Massa, for some stupid reason. And what makes Kimi's high performaces more interesting is that are coming at a time when Ferrari stopped developping the actual car. Can you imagine what he would have been to accomplish otherwise?

I agree and I wouldn't be surprised if Kimi finishes the championship in 3rd, ahead of the Red Bull drivers...

[Saint Devote]

I have said before and I am going to say it again. Nobody gets out my mind that Kimi's "underperformances" are directly linked to Ferrari favouring Massa, for some stupid reason. And what makes Kimi's high performaces more interesting is that are coming at a time when Ferrari stopped developping the actual car. Can you imagine what he would have been to accomplish otherwise?

Absolutely.

Ferrari constantly submit to Schumacher's constant presence, they vividly LOVE Massa and the Alonso factor is another issue.

[Dave B]

Fisichella no better than Badoer really. Lets see what happens at Yas Marina. That car is a point scoring one and to be beaten by those ahead of him with a KERS system at a circuit he knows better than most? Unacceptable.
Actually I think Fisi did a respectable job this weekend. He was certainly quicker than Badoer and made far fewer mistakes, even if one includes his practice crash.


The Monza grand prix gets shorter and shorter each year - this year just over 1hr 16m. Its time to extend this race and stop ripping us off.
The race stays the same length, as is mandated by the rules. Slightly faster cars coupled with a lack of safety cars meant it was quite quick this year, but if you extend the race you'd need even bigger fuel tanks next year as there's no refuelling. You're not being ripped off, F1 is simply demonstrating that it visits all manner of different types of circuit.

[Sleeper]

Fisichella no better than Badoer really
What a load of rubbish. Badoer couldnt even keep up with the back of the field. Fisi was driving a KERS car for the first time this weekend, its braking charecteristics are going to be very different and he still just finished outside the points. I expect he will be in the points next time out and from there on.

Good drive from Liuzzi, I reckon he could have beaton Alonso to the finish without that failure.

RBR have all but lost the title now, its down to RB and JB.

[Saint Devote]

Actually I think Fisi did a respectable job this weekend. He was certainly quicker than Badoer and made far fewer mistakes, even if one includes his practice crash.


The race stays the same length, as is mandated by the rules. Slightly faster cars coupled with a lack of safety cars meant it was quite quick this year, but if you extend the race you'd need even bigger fuel tanks next year as there's no refuelling. You're not being ripped off, F1 is simply demonstrating that it visits all manner of different types of circuit.

My point on Fisichella was compared to Badoer - a driver that has not raced for 10 years while Fisichella is a current driver with good knowledge of Monza.

I think he had the equipment to score points. But maybe I am being too critical at this point.

I am aware of the rules and they should be changed. Bernie is actually looking for a new rule to limit races to 1hr 25m.

I do think the public are being ripped off when a grand prix gets shorter every year. 76 minutes for a grand prix? Not acceptable.

[Saint Devote]

What a load of rubbish. Badoer couldnt even keep up with the back of the field. Fisi was driving a KERS car for the first time this weekend, its braking charecteristics are going to be very different and he still just finished outside the points. I expect he will be in the points next time out and from there on.

Good drive from Liuzzi, I reckon he could have beaton Alonso to the finish without that failure.

RBR have all but lost the title now, its down to RB and JB.

Looking at the results and who is in front of him perhaps you are correct about Fisichella.

But I will not concede that he has to achieve what the Ferrari is capable from here on. That means scoring points at least 6th. Otherwise what exactly is the point of having him drive?

[Sleeper]

Looking at the results and who is in front of him perhaps you are correct about Fisichella.

But I will not concede that he has to achieve what the Ferrari is capable from here on. That means scoring points at least 6th. Otherwise what exactly is the point of having him drive?

Well, somewhere in the points anyway. Brawn, McLaren, Ferrari, Force India and Red Bull all have very competative cars and I reckon Williams will be back closer to the front now were off the high speed/low downforce circuits.

[ioan]

Fisichella no better than Badoer really.

You're right he only finished 9th compared to Badoer's two 20th finishes! :D
He also had the 10th fastest race lap time not to mention that he managed to get into Q2 and his best qualifying lap was only 0.475 seconds slower than Kimi's. Remind me again how many seconds slower than Kimi was 'Look How Bad You Are' in Valencia. :\

[ioan]

Looking at the results and who is in front of him perhaps you are correct about Fisichella.

But I will not concede that he has to achieve what the Ferrari is capable from here on. That means scoring points at least 6th. Otherwise what exactly is the point of having him drive?

Maybe you know someone better than Fisi available and with up to date F1 racing abilities, if so you should let Ferrari know.

[jimakos]

My congrats to Brown GP.
Their tactic gave them the 2 first positions!!
Happy to see Kimi again in pondium :)

[ioan]

I have said before and I am going to say it again. Nobody gets out my mind that Kimi's "underperformances" are directly linked to Ferrari favouring Massa, for some stupid reason. And what makes Kimi's high performaces more interesting is that are coming at a time when Ferrari stopped developping the actual car. Can you imagine what he would have been to accomplish otherwise?

I rather have the impression that Fisichella and Badoer make Kimi look better since Felipe's accident.

Thinking that Ferrari somehow conspired to pay Kimi in excess of € 50 Millions a year just to favor Felipe over him for some obscure reason is way too far fetched. I'm having troubles finding anything logical in this conspiration theory.
Especially considering that it was obvious that Felipe was just driving better than Kimi in 2008 and 2009 up to his accident.

[ioan]

My congrats to Brown GP.
Their tactic gave them the 2 first positions!!

It wasn't as much about tactic as it was about speed. The other 1 stoppers didn't manage to outdo the 2 stoppers only the Brawn GP.

[HenryM]

My congrats to Brown GP.
Their tactic gave them the 2 first positions!!
Happy to see Kimi again in pondium :)


no, it was the fast car, the good drivers and the right strategy.

[ioan]

Absolutely.

Ferrari constantly submit to Schumacher's constant presence, they vividly LOVE Massa and the Alonso factor is another issue.

:laugh:

[UltimateDanGTR]

well done rubens and that brawn car, excellent combination this weekend! Jenson, Sutil, Kimi Hamilton's first 52 laps need a special mention today as well, all very good today. (except when sutil mowed down half his pit crew!) Kimi was consistent as always today, taking a lucky 3rd place from what could have been 5th IMO. (sutil could have overtaken in pits, and if lewis hadnt of dropped it)

and Fisi, 9th place in the end, not too shabby, especially comparing him to Badoer........

[Sleeper]

I rather have the impression that Fisichella and Badoer make Kimi look better since Felipe's accident.

Thinking that Ferrari somehow conspired to pay Kimi in excess of € 50 Millions a year just to favor Felipe over him for some obscure reason is way too far fetched. I'm having troubles finding anything logical in this conspiration theory.
Especially considering that it was obvious that Felipe was just driving better than Kimi in 2008 and 2009 up to his accident.
Considering the car has had no serious updates since Silverstone, just low drag tailoring for Spa and Monza, I cant help wonder just how well Massa would be doing now, what with Kimi visibly driving on the limit since Hungary.

[DexDexter]

I rather have the impression that Fisichella and Badoer make Kimi look better since Felipe's accident.

Thinking that Ferrari somehow conspired to pay Kimi in excess of € 50 Millions a year just to favor Felipe over him for some obscure reason is way too far fetched. I'm having troubles finding anything logical in this conspiration theory.
Especially considering that it was obvious that Felipe was just driving better than Kimi in 2008 and 2009 up to his accident.

IMO It's bit weird to hire somebody and pay him huge amounts of money and then not treat him as number one driver. If you gonna pay somebody that kind of money, you should put everything behind him then, even make the other driver slower if needed by for example, not giving him new parts at the same time. That's what they did before. A good example of backing the lead driver driver is Mclaren, they know that Kovy can match Lewis in quali at some tracks, so they fuel him up enough so he will not threaten Lewis in qualifying and possibly mess up Lewis' race by being in front of him at the start.

[ioan]

IMO It's bit weird to hire somebody and pay him huge amounts of money and then not treat him as number one driver.

That's what I think too, so weird that I can hardly believe it can be true.


If you gonna pay somebody that kind of money, you should put everything behind him then, even make the other driver slower if needed by for example, not giving him new parts at the same time. That's what they did before.

What they did before was to support the driver that was obviously faster. They didn't support Michael over Rubens because of their respective paycheck.

[DexDexter]

That's what I think too, so weird that I can hardly believe it can be true.



What they did before was to support the driver that was obviously faster. They didn't support Michael over Rubens because of their respective paycheck.

Yep, but IMO Ferrari had a better organisation back then, they wanted Michael, got him and built the team around him, the looked for a good second driver who would be a good support driver for him but not someone who would seriously challenge him. Now they have (had) two very good drivers who take points of each other and possibly hinder the team progress cause they have so different driving styles.

[jens]

Those, who are wondering, how is Kimi suddenly so much better than before in an "non-updated car", then I have to remind you that already Monaco showed that F60B has very good mechanical grip - clearly second fastest car behind Brawn. Especially Valencia and Monza, but also Hungaroring, are pretty much about mech. grip as well, so no surprise Ferrari was relatively fast again.

[F1boat]

Yep, but IMO Ferrari had a better organisation back then, they wanted Michael, got him and built the team around him, the looked for a good second driver who would be a good support driver for him but not someone who would seriously challenge him. Now they have (had) two very good drivers who take points of each other and possibly hinder the team progress cause they have so different driving styles.

I agree...

[Saint Devote]

It wasn't as much about tactic as it was about speed. The other 1 stoppers didn't manage to outdo the 2 stoppers only the Brawn GP.

Button answered on Thursday when asked where he thought the greatest competition would come from on Sunday, said Hamilton.

[Saint Devote]

You're right he only finished 9th compared to Badoer's two 20th finishes! :D
He also had the 10th fastest race lap time not to mention that he managed to get into Q2 and his best qualifying lap was only 0.475 seconds slower than Kimi's. Remind me again how many seconds slower than Kimi was 'Look How Bad You Are' in Valencia. :\

True - why should we distinguish between a driver that was not as good as Fisichella in his day, has not raced for 10 years in f1 and is pushing 40 years old trying to catch up in a couple of weekends.

Its all the same really!

[Saint Devote]

Maybe you know someone better than Fisi available and with up to date F1 racing abilities, if so you should let Ferrari know.

Thats not my job. It is the task of the so-called Ferrari management and their "adviser" Schumacher to be able to assess suitable drivers.

As we can see they are not too competent given the musical chairs we are in the midst of with the second Ferrari.

If Kimi had not been a driver with ironclad self-esteem and had a fragile mind like Massa he would have been in pretty poor shape.

Kimi is flattering the Ferrari as well as showing up the Massa replacements.

Being 1/2 a second away from Kimi in F1 today is vast.

Okay so overlook it now, but at Yas Marina let us see everyone be just as tough with Fisichella as they were with Badoer in his second race.

[ioan]

Thats not my job.

For obvious reasons.

[F1boat]

In my opinion the car is very difficult to drive and the struggles of Fisi and Luca were normal. Obviously is very high-tech and difficult to "polish" - actually it took long time for the regular drivers to do it, as we remember from the first races! But I agree with Devote that Kimi is extremely impressive. I think that he is the best driver in the second part of the season...

[jens]

Well, I guess adaptability isn't really Fisichella's strongest trait. For instance he really couldn't get used to those "aggressive" Renault's back in 05-06. But maybe F60B characteristics will suit him more and he can still find decent pace before the end of the season - we'll see.

[keysersoze]

I can't believe that after one weekend, Saint Devote is rubbishing Ferrari's decision to hire GF, as well as Fisi's performance, beating KR in FP1, being .5 from his qualifying pace, and .2 from Kimi's fastest race lap.

No wait, on second thought, I CAN believe it. :rolleyes:

[Sonic]

Fisi did a solid job today, my real concern is that Monza hasn't really got many corners. Three chicanes and three other turns. So if we accept in qualifying Fisi was loosing aprox 0.1s per corner, he could well end up more like 1.0s back on a more standard circuit. Hopefully though he'll have learnt a lot during the race and carry that to the next GP.

As for the rest of the race - really enjoyed it. Frantic first few laps, some very tense battles, and Toyota's bashing each other out of the way. Ace!

[Saint Devote]

In my opinion the car is very difficult to drive and the struggles of Fisi and Luca were normal. Obviously is very high-tech and difficult to "polish" - actually it took long time for the regular drivers to do it, as we remember from the first races! But I agree with Devote that Kimi is extremely impressive. I think that he is the best driver in the second part of the season...

The car, none of the cars are easy - but then look at how Liuzzi performed. He has not raced for 2 years but qualifies inside Q1 and is up to 4th position until mechanical problems sideline him. What does this say about Fisichella? Why should he get a special pass on criticism?

Raikkonen is the only driver that has been on the podium in every grand prix since Hungary and has scored 30 points. He and Barrichello have performed the best although the Brazilian has two wins and has scored 22 points.

With today's mess at Lesmo 1 Kovaleinen - despite underperforming Hamilton in position he has only scored 3 less points than Hamilton since Hungary. 18 versus 15.

[F1boat]

Devote, my personal opinion is that the Ferrari is more difficult to drive than the Force India Mercedes car. If you check the times of Liuzzi, he was beaten by Adrian, the same Adrian who Fisi demolished in Belgium. So IMO it is for sure that the car is a tricky thing and I do not blame neither Fisi, nor Badoer for their results.

[BTCC2]

Fisi was hardly awful, given more time in the car he will do OK.

[Saint Devote]

Fisi did a solid job today, my real concern is that Monza hasn't really got many corners. Three chicanes and three other turns. So if we accept in qualifying Fisi was loosing aprox 0.1s per corner, he could well end up more like 1.0s back on a more standard circuit. Hopefully though he'll have learnt a lot during the race and carry that to the next GP.

As for the rest of the race - really enjoyed it. Frantic first few laps, some very tense battles, and Toyota's bashing each other out of the way. Ace!

What do the Toyota drivers have to lose at this stage?

Trulli from all accounts is likely to be history and surely Glock, with no certainty from Tokyo, is talking to other teams. Any driver going TO Toyota must surely realize it is potentially a career destroyer of a team.

Why dont they just realize that committee management does not work and hire Dave Richards! Dont think THAT will happen!

[jens]

What do the Toyota drivers have to lose at this stage?

Trulli from all accounts is likely to be history and surely Glock, with no certainty from Tokyo, is talking to other teams. Any driver going TO Toyota must surely realize it is potentially a career destroyer of a team.

Why dont they just realize that committee management does not work and hire Dave Richards! Dont think THAT will happen!

In one thread you suggested that Toyota should sack both drivers. So if nobody wants to go there, who should they hire instead? :p :

[Sonic]

What do the Toyota drivers have to lose at this stage?

Trulli from all accounts is likely to be history and surely Glock, with no certainty from Tokyo, is talking to other teams. Any driver going TO Toyota must surely realize it is potentially a career destroyer of a team.

Why dont they just realize that committee management does not work and hire Dave Richards! Dont think THAT will happen!

Nothing to loose at all, which is why I was cheering whilst they were fighting over which one got to stay with the sinking ship that is Toyota.

[ioan]

With today's mess at Lesmo 1 Kovaleinen - despite underperforming Hamilton in position he has only scored 3 less points than Hamilton since Hungary. 18 versus 15.

And he even scored 3 points more than Lewis since Belgium. :D

[ioan]

In one thread you suggested that Toyota should sack both drivers. So if nobody wants to go there, who should they hire instead? :p :

They should, obviously hire the canonized guy.
He'll drive one of the car himself and the other one will be driven by his holly ghost. :p :

[Saint Devote]

Devote, my personal opinion is that the Ferrari is more difficult to drive than the Force India Mercedes car. If you check the times of Liuzzi, he was beaten by Adrian, the same Adrian who Fisi demolished in Belgium. So IMO it is for sure that the car is a tricky thing and I do not blame neither Fisi, nor Badoer for their results.

I do not think Belguim is relevant here because we are comparing positions of two drivers in cars for the first time and relative to their teammates experienced in these cars.

Fisichella is a very average driver in f1 terms with some good days but he rarely has those - which is of course the reason Alonso did not mind having him as a teammate until Briatore could take the Italian no longer.

I have no idea why Fisichella is being treated with such reverence and excuses being made on his behalf.

Compared to Liuzzi's performance Fisichella was downright bloody awful!

[Saint Devote]

Nothing to loose at all, which is why I was cheering whilst they were fighting over which one got to stay with the sinking ship that is Toyota.

I also enjoyed it!

[jens]

And he even scored 3 points more than Lewis since Belgium. :D

The interesting thing is that at Spa, where Hamilton was taken out on Lap1, Kovalainen seemed to have quite a good race in a car, which evidently (by quali performance at least) still seemed to lack a bit in aero department. From 15th to 6th. Now he managed exactly the same result from by far better grid position and also on circuit, which probably suited the car more. :crazy: So does Mr Enigma called Heikki rarely have good race pace or was McLaren really fast in race trim at Spa? Also in Renault '07 Kova seemed to have quite a fair amount of decent races from average grid positions. So what has gone wrong?

Kova's positions from the last 4 races: 5th, 4th, 6th, 6th. Quite similar to his second half of 2007, when he achieved a lot of 7ths and 8ths - very consistent on his own level. :p :

[Saint Devote]

For obvious reasons.

Maybe it ought to be - given that those whose responsibility it IS are getting paid for nothing.

Ferrari have made a real hash of the replacement driver situation. But then it is Ferrari and nothing they do can ever be surprising.

[Saint Devote]

In one thread you suggested that Toyota should sack both drivers. So if nobody wants to go there, who should they hire instead? :p :

:) I think that until the management of the team is proper then there is no point for any driver other than those with nowhere else to go agreeing to join.

[jens]

Maybe it ought to be - given that those whose responsibility it IS are getting paid for nothing.

Ferrari have made a real hash of the replacement driver situation. But then it is Ferrari and nothing they do can ever be surprising.

Err, it's quite pointless to criticize a driver choice (this time Fisi->Ferrari) without offering a better solution. Driver choices are based on how good the available options are. It never works in opposite way like "Oh this guy seems to underperforming, let's get rid of him immediately!!! OK, now let's take a look now, who can we get instead of him. Damn, looks like a few useless blokes are ready to join."

Toyota tried this emotional sacking-method in 2002 by getting rid of both drivers (one of who had "too many opinions" and other one was rated as "slow") only to discover a year later that it didn't help to improve their performance.

[Saint Devote]

I can't believe that after one weekend, Saint Devote is rubbishing Ferrari's decision to hire GF, as well as Fisi's performance, beating KR in FP1, being .5 from his qualifying pace, and .2 from Kimi's fastest race lap.

No wait, on second thought, I CAN believe it. :rolleyes:

Unlike you Fisichella is not a holy cow to me and I will not apply a double standard.

Two drivers, in cars they have never raced before, but one not having raced in f1 for two years, the other a driver vastly experienced in f1.

The first driver qualifies in q3 and reaches fourth in the race - HIS teammate fighting for second and third - before mechanical problems intervene.

The second driver ends up at the slower end of Q2 being beaten by amongst others a driver in his third grand prix, Grosjean. Then buggers around at the slower non-point end of the race while HIS teammate is fighting for third place in a car that is proven capable of winning a grand prix IN THE RIGHT HANDS.

Compared to Liuzzi, Fisichella ought to be on the carpet Monday morning with di Montezemolo raising hell and asking "Fisi" if he really wants to RACE the Ferrari or merely drive around fast on a Sunday afternoon?

Maybe the Ferrari comedy should continue and Ferrari ask Mallya if they can try Liuzzi!!!! :vader:

[Saint Devote]

Err, it's quite pointless to criticize a driver choice (this time Fisi->Ferrari) without offering a better solution. Driver choices are based on how good the available options are. It never works in opposite way like "Oh this guy seems to underperforming, let's get rid of him immediately!!! OK, now let's take a look now, who can we get instead of him. Damn, looks like a few useless blokes are ready to join."

Toyota tried this emotional sacking-method in 2002 by getting rid of both drivers (one of who had "too many opinions" and other one was rated as "slow") only to discover a year later that it didn't help to improve their performance.

Driver choices are based - like any business choices - on being ready with emergency plans and not winging it by fighting fires as Ferrari are.

Mallya can teach Ferrari how to do it.

The problem at Toyota is not the drivers because they are the result or outcome of management decision. The real issue at Toyota is management.

Once management is sorted out at Toyota - and that is not likely too soon if at all - then the driver situation will improve.

You think Brawn GP is accidental? Not at all. It is the outcome of brilliant managemet named Ross Brawn [and Nick Fry] assisted ably by excellent people. :vader:

[mstillhere]

I rather have the impression that Fisichella and Badoer make Kimi look better since Felipe's accident.

Thinking that Ferrari somehow conspired to pay Kimi in excess of € 50 Millions a year just to favor Felipe over him for some obscure reason is way too far fetched. I'm having troubles finding anything logical in this conspiration theory.
Especially considering that it was obvious that Felipe was just driving better than Kimi in 2008 and 2009 up to his accident.

I actually think that because of Fisichella and Badoer, Kimi can get his car set the way he wants too, since he is now, because of "force majeur", Ferrari's top driver.

I know all the money involved and all that, but I find extremely strange, and I mean extremely, that since Massa has been out of the picture not only Kimi has been scoring points, but he is very often on the podium. The Kimi I remember with Massa on the track, was a Kimi who was lucky to make it to the finish line.

I know, I have nothing to back up my conspiracy theories, except Kimi on the podium and winning races.

[ioan]

I actually think that because of Fisichella and Badoer, Kimi can get his car set the way he wants too, since he is now, because of "force majeur", Ferrari's top driver.

The driver sets his car up independently from his team mate, unless I missed something and they drive the same car in the same time.



I know, I have nothing to back up my conspiracy theories, except Kimi on the podium and winning races.

You mean Kimi winning a race for the first time in like 14 months?! Pretty poor for someone who's paid a fortune to win 5 times less races than his team mate who's paid 5 times less.
Nothing to get excited about.

[truefan72]

well done rubens and that brawn car, excellent combination this weekend! Jenson, Sutil, Kimi Hamilton's first 52 laps need a special mention today as well, all very good today. (except when sutil mowed down half his pit crew!) Kimi was consistent as always today, taking a lucky 3rd place from what could have been 5th IMO. (sutil could have overtaken in pits, and if lewis hadnt of dropped it)

and Fisi, 9th place in the end, not too shabby, especially comparing him to Badoer........
man if sutil had done a normal pitstop, he would have come out ahead of kimi for a 3rd place, oh well, its different I guess with all the pressure to deliver now

[truefan72]

I can't believe that after one weekend, Saint Devote is rubbishing Ferrari's decision to hire GF, as well as Fisi's performance, beating KR in FP1, being .5 from his qualifying pace, and .2 from Kimi's fastest race lap.

No wait, on second thought, I CAN believe it. :rolleyes:

lol :)

[truefan72]

I think that the ferrari is a rather difficult car to drive and the 2009 was especially tailored to massa's liking. to a degree I can understand this since massa immersed himself into the factory and tried to become the defacto #1 by trying to be a leader, spending much time with the engineers etc, in that way he pretty much got the car he wanted and kimi who is more of a "test drivers are ther for a reason" kind racer who trusts the team to produce a good car for him. /kimi is like maxell. He makes the product you have much better. While massa is the type of driver who performs when conditions are ideal. To that respect, it took kimi longer than usual to adjust to this 2009 car and the team also had issues with the design, no Ddifuser etc initially.

It's not that he is any better, he is just more himself now. Maybe he has now learned that he needs to assert himslef as well with the team if they treat both drivers the same.

[Saint Devote]

The driver sets his car up independently from his team mate, unless I missed something and they drive the same car in the same time.

You mean Kimi winning a race for the first time in like 14 months?! Pretty poor for someone who's paid a fortune to win 5 times less races than his team mate who's paid 5 times less.
Nothing to get excited about.

You always cherry pick facts to suit your argument.

Massa has not done better than Raikkonen at Ferrari - both drivers have won NINE grands prix for Ferrari but Kimi has managed to win a world title as well.

And the reason he is paid more is because they expect more - and on his game Raikkonen does deliver such as at Spa two weeks ago.

I think Massa at his best is nowhere near as good as Kimi at his.

That is the difference. It does not mean that Raikkonen will not go through a period of underperformance - all drivers have some sort of underperformance relative to a teammate at times - but we do know that if he does not have a car that can win, he is not the sort of driver that fights inordinately hard for 6th place.

Ferrari know this and accept who he is because they also know what happens when the Kimi fire is lit.

[keysersoze]

Unlike you Fisichella is not a holy cow to me and I will not apply a double standard.

Two drivers, in cars they have never raced before, but one not having raced in f1 for two years, the other a driver vastly experienced in f1.

The first driver qualifies in q3 and reaches fourth in the race - HIS teammate fighting for second and third - before mechanical problems intervene.

The second driver ends up at the slower end of Q2 being beaten by amongst others a driver in his third grand prix, Grosjean. Then buggers around at the slower non-point end of the race while HIS teammate is fighting for third place in a car that is proven capable of winning a grand prix IN THE RIGHT HANDS.

Compared to Liuzzi, Fisichella ought to be on the carpet Monday morning with di Montezemolo raising hell and asking "Fisi" if he really wants to RACE the Ferrari or merely drive around fast on a Sunday afternoon?

Maybe the Ferrari comedy should continue and Ferrari ask Mallya if they can try Liuzzi!!!! :vader:

Go ahead and keep trying to say that Liuzzi and GF's circumstances are anywhere near approximate enough to compare, yet you are mistaken.

Vitantonio has been with the team for season and a half, knows the personnel, and has significant test mileage. The car itself is less complicated than the Ferrari and, by all accounts, is extremely well-suited to tracks like Spa and Monza. In addition, Force India is the latest team to introduce significant updates, whereas Ferrari have halted development for quiet some time now.

Grosjean? Has been a Renault test driver for quite a while, and has been surprisingly close to Alonso at times.

How do you think Fisichella would've fared this weekend if he'd stayed at FI?

I'm quite impressed with Liuzzi's performance, and felt Giancarlo could've been a bit quicker than he was, but that his overall performance was respectable. The circumstances at Monza for the Fish were never favorable, and then he shoots himself in the foot Saturday morning in FP3. Not only does Kimi have enormous experience in the car, he was third lightest, so was naturally much quicker than Giancarlo in the opening segment of the race, the latter fueled heavy and on a one-stopper.

Don't worry: I get it. You don't think much of older drivers who aren't whipping their teammates. You said similar things about Rubens, but look what happened today, and you've slagged Heidfeld, but he had an excellent race today, too.

[F1boat]

Massa has not done better than Raikkonen at Ferrari - both drivers have won NINE grands prix for Ferrari but Kimi has managed to win a world title as well.



That's all of it, really. The rest is speculating.

[Dzeidzei]

The driver sets his car up independently from his team mate, unless I missed something and they drive the same car in the same time.
.

Kimi actually said in an interview that the drivers rarely share data, expect on tyres (they can run different programs in fp) and if someone is totally off course.

I think Felipe´s replacements show clearly that there are two different tiers in f1. Kimi and Felipe clearly belong to the top tier while most other drivers dont. It doesnt matter whether youre 1.5 or 2 secs off like Luca or just 0,7 secs off like Fisi. Even thats a lightyear.

[SGWilko]

man if sutil had done a normal pitstop, he would have come out ahead of kimi for a 3rd place, oh well, its different I guess with all the pressure to deliver now

Indeed, and better he learn to deal with it now, as I think Sutil is going to be hot property soon. Liuzzi didn't do himself any harm either, did he?

[ioan]

Kimi actually said in an interview that the drivers rarely share data, expect on tyres (they can run different programs in fp) and if someone is totally off course.

Exactly. But take care there's a guy around here who thinks that this is cherry picking the facts. ;)

[Garry Walker]

The car, none of the cars are easy - but then look at how Liuzzi performed. He has not raced for 2 years but qualifies inside Q1 and is up to 4th position until mechanical problems sideline him. What does this say about Fisichella? Why should he get a special pass on criticism?

Liuzzi performed better because he had a much better car than Fisi. Force India, on those high-speed tracks, goes really well and when I was attacked for saying that the FI was better of a car than the Ferrari at Spa, well, I was proven right again and they were again better than the Ferrari at Monza.

When we go back to normal tracks, things might change.