Forum Protocol

[SGWilko]

A ban for life is what I will do from now on, as I am really tired of dealing with mature people who act like kids. I will not take this any longer, you all have been warned !

Is there somewhere on this forum that;

Notes a correct procedure and protocol for disciplining forum members?

Does it set out clearly first offence penalty, second offence etc?

Does it list what constitutes an offence?

Is there a requirement to have the offence action approved by another moderator before it is given?

In addition, if a forum member reports a post, there should be the requirement to stipulate the reason for reporting the post.

The person reported should be notified why they had been reported, and what happens next and the ultimate consequences.

As an incentive to further discourage unwanted behaviour, each member should be able see how many offences they have, what the next action could be etc etc.

Wildly threatening a life ban without following correct procedure is overly draconian.

Pino, are you the current FIA incumbent perchance? ;)

Just my tuppence h'penny to a subject that needs to be addressed fully.

Have a nice day everyone.

[SGWilko]

Is there somewhere on this forum that;

Notes a correct procedure and protocol for disciplining forum members?

Does it set out clearly first offence penalty, second offence etc?

Does it list what constitutes an offence?

Is there a requirement to have the offence action approved by another moderator before it is given?

In addition, if a forum member reports a post, there should be the requirement to stipulate the reason for reporting the post.

The person reported should be notified why they had been reported, and what happens next and the ultimate consequences.

As an incentive to further discourage unwanted behaviour, each member should be able see how many offences they have, what the next action could be etc etc.

Wildly threatening a life ban without following correct procedure is overly draconian.

Pino, are you the current FIA incumbent perchance? ;)

Just my tuppence h'penny to a subject that needs to be addressed fully.

Have a nice day everyone.

So the permanent ban really will only come into effect when enough 'points' have been achieved? Or is this ban Pino threatens at HIS discretion? Rules is rules, and should be followed.

[Dzeidzei]

Is there somewhere on this forum that;

Notes a correct procedure and protocol for disciplining forum members?

Does it set out clearly first offence penalty, second offence etc?

Does it list what constitutes an offence?

Is there a requirement to have the offence action approved by another moderator before it is given?

In addition, if a forum member reports a post, there should be the requirement to stipulate the reason for reporting the post.

The person reported should be notified why they had been reported, and what happens next and the ultimate consequences.

As an incentive to further discourage unwanted behaviour, each member should be able see how many offences they have, what the next action could be etc etc.

Wildly threatening a life ban without following correct procedure is overly draconian.

Pino, are you the current FIA incumbent perchance? ;)

Just my tuppence h'penny to a subject that needs to be addressed fully.

Have a nice day everyone.

Another question: is there a procedure to remove yourself from the user list, when enough is enough?

[pino]

Is there somewhere on this forum that;

Notes a correct procedure and protocol for disciplining forum members?

Does it set out clearly first offence penalty, second offence etc?

Does it list what constitutes an offence?

Is there a requirement to have the offence action approved by another moderator before it is given?

In addition, if a forum member reports a post, there should be the requirement to stipulate the reason for reporting the post.

The person reported should be notified why they had been reported, and what happens next and the ultimate consequences.

As an incentive to further discourage unwanted behaviour, each member should be able see how many offences they have, what the next action could be etc etc.

Wildly threatening a life ban without following correct procedure is overly draconian.

Pino, are you the current FIA incumbent perchance? ;)

Just my tuppence h'penny to a subject that needs to be addressed fully.

Have a nice day everyone.


I suggest that you read this thread (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118382) once again. And yes the ban is at my discretion only, as I am the one who runs this place.

[pino]

Another question: is there a procedure to remove yourself from the user list, when enough is enough?

:confused:

[Dzeidzei]

:confused:

Is there someone who manages the user list and who can remove users from that list?

[Knock-on]

And how much is it to get onto ioan "ignore" list.

If it isn't too much, I want to apply :D

[pino]

Is there someone who manages the user list and who can remove users from that list?

Probably any Administrator, but I am not sure, why ?

[Dzeidzei]

Probably any Administrator, but I am not sure, why ?

I just think that this forum lets a member dictate too much and behave how he pleases and therefore its time to move on. And to do that having yourself removed is a good solution.

So is that possible?

[pino]

I just think that this forum lets a member dictate too much and behave how he pleases and therefore its time to move on. And to do that having yourself removed is a good solution.

So is that possible?

I can't do that by myself, you need to ask our Main Administrator (Mark) to remove me from this job. But I can alway quit if you guys want that, just let me know ;)

[Big Ben]

I just think that this forum lets a member dictate too much and behave how he pleases and therefore its time to move on. And to do that having yourself removed is a good solution.

So is that possible?

It's the most simple thing. You just stop coming inhere instead of keep saying you're leaving without actually leaving. Is it that hard to just ignore someone?

[DexDexter]

It's the most simple thing. You just stop coming inhere instead of keep saying you're leaving without actually leaving. Is it that hard to just ignore someone?

It's hard to ignore somebody cause others quote him and you get to see some of the posts.

[Dzeidzei]

I can't do that by myself, you need to ask our Main Administrator (Mark) to remove me from this job. But I can alway quit if you guys want that, just let me know ;)

Come on Pino, its not because of you.

The prob is that sometimes you find interesting topics to discuss, but they all end up the same way. Like Ive said, its futile and frustrating.

[Dzeidzei]

It's hard to ignore somebody cause others quote him and you get to see some of the posts.

This is true, Im afraid.

[SGWilko]

In response to this post being deleted for no reason, here it is again for your input and comments. It would be nice to finally understand what constitutes a personal attack;

for instance, if someone is acting immaturely, and you write grow up - is that a personal attack, or a statement based upon observation of behaviour.

Is there somewhere on this forum that;

Notes a correct procedure and protocol for disciplining forum members?

Does it set out clearly first offence penalty, second offence etc?

Does it list what constitutes an offence?

Is there a requirement to have the offence action approved by another moderator before it is given? This I think is very important, as it then demostrates impartiality, or at least it strives to.....

In addition, if a forum member reports a post, there should be the requirement to stipulate the reason for reporting the post.

The person reported should be notified why they had been reported, and what happens next and the ultimate consequences.

As an incentive to further discourage unwanted behaviour, each member should be able see how many offences they have, what the next action could be etc etc.

Wildly threatening a life ban without following correct procedure is overly draconian.

Pino, are you the current FIA incumbent perchance? ;)

Just my tuppence h'penny to a subject that needs to be addressed fully.

Have a nice day everyone.

[Storm]

C'mon guys ignore whoever is bothering you...the forum should not be for fun not for adding more stress to your lives!

Although I have to say, the forum is not the same anymore (most old timers will agree? )
SGWilko seems to be in love with you pino :p :

[henners88]

Your 'Life Ban' thread is still active bro...

[ioan]

Although I have to say, the forum is not the same anymore (most old timers will agree? )

Agreed.

[ioan]

Is there somewhere on this forum that;

Notes a correct procedure and protocol for disciplining forum members?

Does it set out clearly first offence penalty, second offence etc?

Does it list what constitutes an offence?

Is there a requirement to have the offence action approved by another moderator before it is given?

In addition, if a forum member reports a post, there should be the requirement to stipulate the reason for reporting the post.

The person reported should be notified why they had been reported, and what happens next and the ultimate consequences.

As an incentive to further discourage unwanted behaviour, each member should be able see how many offences they have, what the next action could be etc etc.

Wildly threatening a life ban without following correct procedure is overly draconian.

Pino, are you the current FIA incumbent perchance? ;)

Just my tuppence h'penny to a subject that needs to be addressed fully.

Have a nice day everyone.

There was something like this a few years ago, however it all went down the drain, apparently.

I also agree with your view about the need of some procedure that are transparently followed in order to get this forum sorted from this perceived state of disorder and to give the moderator a way to do his job properly and also get the due respect and acknowledgement for the job he is doing.

[SGWilko]

Your 'Life Ban' thread is still active bro...

Not on my screen it isn't. You almost had me there - I had to double check!!!

[Dave B]

FWIW this seems like a good moment to point out my thoughts in Forum Feedback, seeing as nobody has replied :p


F1 forum moderators - 5th Aug 09, 15:10

And before anybody asks, let me make it clear I'm not putting myself forward. Right, with that out of the way...

Would it be possible to get some more moderators for the F1 forum? Nothing wrong with the current ones, they do an excellent job when they're there, but it's becoming obvious that through no fault of their own they simply cannot devote enough time to moderating the forum.

For instance when I alerted about a member constantly posting off-topic photos and slinging personal abuse, it took well over 24 hours for anything to happen, by which time they'd caused a lot of disruption.

Recently it's decended into a kindergarten, with pathetic name-calling, personal battles, giant egos, and petty little gripes. A lot of people need, IMHO, a metaphorical slapped wrist before it gets out of hand - especially with a certain Mr Schumacher due back in the sport [well, he was at the time!], and we all know how he inflames passion.

I repeat, for the avoidance of doubt, that the current mods do a good job, I just feel that there needs to be a few more bods who can devote the necessary time.

Any thoughts?

[henners88]

Not on my screen it isn't. You almost had me there - I had to double check!!!
Perhaps you've been blocked from seeing it.. :p
Its still active on mine, ioan has just posted on it... ;)

[ioan]

Perhaps you've been blocked from seeing it.. :p
Its still active on mine, ioan has just posted on it... ;)

Yep, it's still there and active enough to be read and to post in it.

[henners88]

Testing, testing.... Yep this thread is still here :p

[SGWilko]

FWIW this seems like a good moment to point out my thoughts in Forum Feedback, seeing as nobody has replied :p


F1 forum moderators - 5th Aug 09, 15:10

And before anybody asks, let me make it clear I'm not putting myself forward. Right, with that out of the way...

Would it be possible to get some more moderators for the F1 forum? Nothing wrong with the current ones, they do an excellent job when they're there, but it's becoming obvious that through no fault of their own they simply cannot devote enough time to moderating the forum.

For instance when I alerted about a member constantly posting off-topic photos and slinging personal abuse, it took well over 24 hours for anything to happen, by which time they'd caused a lot of disruption.

Recently it's decended into a kindergarten, with pathetic name-calling, personal battles, giant egos, and petty little gripes. A lot of people need, IMHO, a metaphorical slapped wrist before it gets out of hand - especially with a certain Mr Schumacher due back in the sport [well, he was at the time!], and we all know how he inflames passion.

I repeat, for the avoidance of doubt, that the current mods do a good job, I just feel that there needs to be a few more bods who can devote the necessary time.

Any thoughts?


Well, consistency is the key in my view.

But, you MUST set out what is considered an offence, and what is not.

Then, you need to enforce it with rigidity. First offence - Yellow card - displayed as you log in, with a PM from a mod explaining what, when why and how etc.

Second - Orange card, and, again a PM as above, but a warning that the next offence will be red card, and the ability to log on will be removed, and the period of this 'vacation' clearly stipulated.

Then, when the ban is up, you get a cooling off period, so you are on a pink card for example for so many days or weeks - one offence and its a longer ban.

It'll soon clean up then.

[SGWilko]

Testing, testing.... Yep this thread is still here :p

Ah, you see the art of communication has broken down. The post was moved - not by me - to a new thread, without my knowledge or without anyone telling me by a PM.

Ho hum. Now I know where it is, thanks whoever moved it, but flipping well tell me - it'll avoid embarrassment all round. :)

[SGWilko]

I suggest that you read this thread (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118382) once again. And yes the ban is at my discretion only, as I am the one who runs this place.

Yep, read that. Not really a very clear strategy there though, is there?

Makes reference to points, but not how many, and what for, and what scale.......

C'mon, if you have a proper system, ultimately it will make your job much easier and probably a lot more pleasant......

[Dzeidzei]

C'mon guys ignore whoever is bothering you...the forum should not be for fun not for adding more stress to your lives!:


On the contrary, it should be for fun (hopefully you meant to say so). But like I said, EVERY thread gets vandalized and unless you stop arguing they end up being closed with bans or threats of bans flying around.

[SGWilko]

give the moderator a way to do his job properly and also get the due respect and acknowledgement for the job he is doing.

:up:

[BeansBeansBeans]

With a few exceptions this forum is reminiscent of a bunch of toddlers sqabbling over a toy. The only difference being that toddlers probably have a better grasp of F1 ;)

[Knock-on]

I'm 100% with you Dave.

You try to be civil to people but some are intent on being rude, abusive or acting is childish ways and it's infuriating that it's allowed to happen.

I admit, most of us get frustrated (especially me ;) ) and slip in the odd bit of sledging but some people are constant transgressors and it's ruining the forum.

With a few more bods on the ground, we might be able to get some control on the trolls and hopefully bring things back from the brink.

I would also like to endorse Pino as a great Mod that does exceptionally well in the most trying of circumstances but he can't be everywhere. He's too short for that :D

[christophulus]

OK, so I'm a newbie here (relative to a lot of you guys), and this is just my opinion:

I honestly can't see that it's so difficult to just ignore a post if it seriously bothers you. Why keep taking the bait? Just scroll down a little further and carry on with the original discussion. If it's massively offensive report it (I admit I'm not sure what's the best way), otherwise just ignore it!

At the end of the day it's just words on a page - in my opinion there's too much one-upmanship and people having to have the final say. If we all act like adults occasionally then perhaps we wouldn't need a ton of moderators?

Just ignore whoever is bothering you and they'll give up. Or they'll make such a fool of themselves to get attention that they'll get banned anyway. Simple!

[DexDexter]

I don't think most people here are on a mission to insult people, the problem is it only takes a couple of active posters that do not respect other posters and answer them in a derogatory way to ruin the discussion. Most people, me included, will not endlessly take insults without a response.

[ioan]

OK, so I'm a newbie here (relative to a lot of you guys), and this is just my opinion:

I honestly can't see that it's so difficult to just ignore a post if it seriously bothers you. Why keep taking the bait? Just scroll down a little further and carry on with the original discussion. If it's massively offensive report it (I admit I'm not sure what's the best way), otherwise just ignore it!

At the end of the day it's just words on a page - in my opinion there's too much one-upmanship and people having to have the final say. If we all act like adults occasionally then perhaps we wouldn't need a ton of moderators?

Just ignore whoever is bothering you and they'll give up. Or they'll make such a fool of themselves to get attention that they'll get banned anyway. Simple!

Excellent post. It sums up the situation very well, and teh solutions are good too. :up:

[pino]

FWIW this seems like a good moment to point out my thoughts in Forum Feedback, seeing as nobody has replied :p


F1 forum moderators - 5th Aug 09, 15:10

And before anybody asks, let me make it clear I'm not putting myself forward. Right, with that out of the way...

Would it be possible to get some more moderators for the F1 forum? Nothing wrong with the current ones, they do an excellent job when they're there, but it's becoming obvious that through no fault of their own they simply cannot devote enough time to moderating the forum.

For instance when I alerted about a member constantly posting off-topic photos and slinging personal abuse, it took well over 24 hours for anything to happen, by which time they'd caused a lot of disruption.

Recently it's decended into a kindergarten, with pathetic name-calling, personal battles, giant egos, and petty little gripes. A lot of people need, IMHO, a metaphorical slapped wrist before it gets out of hand - especially with a certain Mr Schumacher due back in the sport [well, he was at the time!], and we all know how he inflames passion.

I repeat, for the avoidance of doubt, that the current mods do a good job, I just feel that there needs to be a few more bods who can devote the necessary time.

Any thoughts?


Dave mate, the real problem here is that no matter how I act or what I do, people are still complaining. Shall we say I ban a member for some reasons, not only the banned member gets mad at me, but also his friends/supporters of the same team or driver or whatever, will complain about that ban. And when I decide to close an eye, or give another chance, or just a warning insted of banning, there will be people who will complain about that too. So really it's very difficult to please everyone and believe me I've tried my best in all these years I've been here. Anyway if me being too soft and nice is the problem, I can change that right now, but I can assure you guys that this place will be desertic in no time.

Another Moderator ? yes why not ! I can start a new thread and you guys can post your candidate, then Mark and myself will might choose one, given that there will be any serious candidates for that job...

[Mark]

I
Notes a correct procedure and protocol for disciplining forum members?

Does it set out clearly first offence penalty, second offence etc?

Does it list what constitutes an offence?


No.



Is there a requirement to have the offence action approved by another moderator before it is given?

No.



In addition, if a forum member reports a post, there should be the requirement to stipulate the reason for reporting the post.

You do have to give a reason.



The person reported should be notified why they had been reported, and what happens next and the ultimate consequences.

Automatically noifiying someone when they've been reported may cause problems!



As an incentive to further discourage unwanted behaviour, each member should be able see how many offences they have, what the next action could be etc etc.

You can see what infractions you have, but that system doesn't work properly unfortunately.



Wildly threatening a life ban without following correct procedure is overly draconian.

It's up to the moderator how they act.



Pino, are you the current FIA incumbent perchance?

We like to model ourselves on the FIAs consistent methods ;)

[SGWilko]

Automatically noifiying someone when they've been reported may cause problems!


I am NOT suggesting you tell them who did it, just that they have been reported.

That would be very foolish.

One thing Pino mentioned above that caught my attention - about turning a blind eye in some occasions and being lambasted....

If you are not consistent, you lay yourself open to the masses.

[ArrowsFA1]

He's too short for that :D


We like to model ourselves on the FIAs consistent methods ;)
Does this mean Mark = Max and pino = Bernie :confused: :eek: :p :

[BeansBeansBeans]

The mods on here are unpaid and do this in their spare time. Ideally they should be here to delete spam, remove bad language, set-up polls and generally keep things running smoothly. Instead they are forced to spend their time intervening in petty slanging-matches.

Whose fault is that? No theirs, ours.

[pino]

One thing Pino mentioned above that caught my attention - about turning a blind eye in some occasions and being lambasted....

If you are not consistent, you lay yourself open to the masses.

As Moderator it's my job to make sure that this place don't get desertic, if you know what I mean, that's why many times I close an eye. But as posted before I can change strategy right now if you guys prefere that...

[pino]

The mods on here are unpaid and do this in their spare time. Ideally they should be here to delete spam, remove bad language, set-up polls and generally keep things running smoothly. Instead they are forced to spend their time intervening in petty slanging-matches.

Whose fault is that? No theirs, ours.

What address should I send those bottles of Chianti ? :p :

[SGWilko]

As Moderator it's my job to make sure that this place don't get desertic, if you know what I mean, that's why many times I close an eye. But as posted before I can change strategy right now if you guys prefere that...

I know what you mean, I was just putting forth my POV.

ANd as for Chianti, I thought you were more of Louis Roederer Cristal man myself...!!! ;)

[SGWilko]

The mods on here are unpaid and do this in their spare time. Ideally they should be here to delete spam, remove bad language, set-up polls and generally keep things running smoothly. Instead they are forced to spend their time intervening in petty slanging-matches.

Whose fault is that? No theirs, ours.

Indeed, and that is a sad truth.

But.......

The same rules must apply to one and all, not on an indivual basis.

Now, as Pino points out, this could lead to an empty forum.

But if the problem still persists, perhaps some weeding is required.

[Knock-on]

Does this mean Mark = Max and pino = Bernie :confused: :eek: :p :

<Shudders>

Does this mean I've sat on Bernies knee ;)

Being serious for a second chaps, lets look at the situation.

This is a fun forum. Nobody is paid to be here and can leave at any time. I know nobody wants to but on occassions this place can get like a Kindergarten. I find the best thing to do is have a 2 week holiday :D

I've known Pino and Mark for quite a few years now and both of them do a great job. If you think it's easy moderating this place then put your name in the hat but I wouldn't fancy it. Mods need to strike a balance between allowing healthy debate and weeding out imbercils. Not too easy on here at the best of times.

Remember, nobody gets paid to run this show and nobody's obliged to stay so it's up to us to make it work.

[BeansBeansBeans]

The same rules must apply to one and all, not on an indivual basis.

I think you have unrealistic expectations. Maintaining consistency is not easy even for large sporting bodies with professional officials, let alone amateur forum mods.

[pino]

.... let alone amateur forum mods.

Hey watch your mouth :hmph: ;)

[pettersolberg29]

What parts of the forum are we talking about? I only really look at the WRC section, and there are no problems there from what I've seen. Are rows going on elsewhere or is this all just making a mountain out of a molehill?

[SGWilko]

What parts of the forum are we talking about? I only really look at the WRC section, and there are no problems there from what I've seen. Are rows going on elsewhere or is this all just making a mountain out of a molehill?

It's not quite a mountain out of a molehill. But there are definate issues that seem to get up peoples noses, and the inability for any thread to remain untainted by personal digs.

[Roamy]

this thread has nothing to do with F1 so close it !!!!!!!!!!

Pino Rules so get over it

[pettersolberg29]

I must have just got used to it - I use football forums regularly - and in comparison those football forums are much, much worse.
Swearing, racial abuse, sexist abuse, personal comments and showing of personal data and e-mail addresses, not to mention over-zealous moderating.

Coming to this board is a relief, as I never have seen any bad abuse - little digs maybe but all in good humour and nothing harmful. I applaud Pino and the rest for their work.

[SGWilko]

Maintaining consistency is not easy even for large sporting bodies with professional officials

And look at the trouble that causes....

[ioan]

It's not quite a mountain out of a molehill. But there are definate issues that seem to get up peoples noses, and the inability for any thread to remain untainted by personal digs.

Exactly.

And while I find that Mark supporting the mods and the rules is very classy it still doesn't help the situation.

I think we all agree, and Pino underlined this, the forum per se is worth little without people around to have a discussion.

It is also painfully obvious that many around here, me included, have very strong feeling about other members and the sentiments are in 99.99% of teh cases reciprocated.

And this is why I find SGWilko's thread a very mature approach to what is a latent but huge problem for the forum.

In my opinion to get this straightened out we need a firm set of rules and a firm set of protocols that have to be implemented transparently from now on in order to get this place capable of holding a decent discussion again in the near future.

There was a time not so long ago when we got a message when we did something bad and we were told why it was.
We had also the possibility to follow our wrongdoings history and know to calm down because we were on the brink of ejection.
However, for some reason that I'm not aware of, what was a great system was dumped and anarchy followed.

As Pino pointed it out he has troubles with banning or not banning people because there are small 'churches' formed on the board that try to vehemently protect their 'members', especially when someone gets banned and the reasons aren't really evident to everyone (often least so for the banned person who doesn't even get an email with an explanation).
This is, IMO, due to the opacity of the protocol or to be sincere to the complete lack of it.

So in the end it is obvious, at least to a few of us, me included, that if we want to have a civilized forum to discuss about F1 we will need a set of rules 'set in stone' and a set of procedures to follow in case these rules are broken by any of the members, and a thread where the banns are made public so that no one has the need to question the moderators decision.
This is what we have in all the civilized countries, a set of laws, a set of procedure for when the laws are broken, transparency and allow me to add a blind justice.

Just my opinion and it doesn't exclude the fact that we all need to grow up and act like adults, but than again adults need rules and rules need enforcement even in the real world. And even if some will say this isn't the real world I disagree because we are real people discussing about what happens in the real world and often we get really angry.

That's my 2 cents, sorry for the length of this rant.

[Knock-on]

I really don't see the problem with the current rules.

Personally, I don't see the appeal of pages and pages of "rules". We're not at school :rolleyes:

How about this.

Debate and discuss in a reasonable manner.
Don't insult people by questioning things like their education.
If you make a claim, back it up with some sort of proof or state it as opinion.
If someone challenges your post, don't just ignore it and post the same again, have the decency to respond to them otherwise you are just trolling.
And finally, accept if you're wrong and act reasonably.

These shouldn't be rocket engineering but part of everyday life for most people. Debate hard and be passionate all you want but respect others opinions and act decently of people are being reasonable to you or get banned.

Simples...

[SGWilko]

The last two posts make perfect sense.

If you have a report function - there has to be a mechanism to see it is used fairly. Referenced in ioans post

If not, take that function away completely and give the mods free reign on those of us unable to act in a mature fashion. The Knocky approach.

One or the other, surely?

[ioan]

We could all solemnly promise to stop acting like kids and say we need no rules (and I think we only need a few ones not many) because we can act like grown up people, however I doubt it will work for long.

[schmenke]

My two cents:

The forum rules are made available to all members, and like fousto says (in his usual diplomatic way :p : ) end of discussion.

However, I can't help but feel that at times the general tone of threads deteriorates to the point where the discussion is no longer enjoyable. This can be disconcerting to new (and old) members who may opt to leave the forums altogether which is obviously not what the forum sponsors want. Nor is having to close threads, which seems to be happening more often that we'd like these days.
To keep this forum going, I think it's in everyone's best interests to maintain civil and healthy discussions, respecting other members opinions, thus encouraging members to stick around :mark: .

[edv]

If you make a claim, back it up with some sort of proof or state it as opinion.

This alone would help a great deal. Many conflicts here come down to lack of clarity or simple misunderstanding.


And finally, accept if you're wrong and act reasonably.

This, IMO, is going to be impossible. Human nature combined with anonymity lead to egos the size of the Hindenburg.

[DexDexter]

Its just a minority of members who don't appreciate others having different opinions. When their arguement is questioned they resort to insults regarding nationalities and insulting other teams and fans associated with them. No big deal, but its often hard to ignore... :)

:up:

[F1boat]

Pino is a wonderful mod, very gentle, guys. You don't know a bad moderator.
Trust me.

[SGWilko]

Pino is a wonderful mod, very gentle, guys.

I don't think anyone on here would argue with that.

[Valve Bounce]

The last two posts make perfect sense.

If you have a report function - there has to be a mechanism to see it is used fairly. Referenced in ioans post

If not, take that function away completely and give the mods free reign on those of us unable to act in a mature fashion. The Knocky approach.

One or the other, surely?

I don't think this is practical. The mods have the discretion to take whatever action they deem is necessary, and personally I see no reason why they have to explain themselves to the forum which will simply start more arguments. It has been my experience that those who have been warned have the reasons for such action explained to them by the mods, and I think this is very fair and that alone is action enough.

As for the report function, this is necessary because the mods simply havn't got the time to read all posts. Taking it away will result in a huge workload on the mods.

I will limit my comments to the practical side of this thread; I'll leave the considerations on the deterioration of discussions to those who make them that way.

[patnicholls]

Personally, I'm entirely against any kind of thread showing reasons why people are banned - moderating should be something that takes place behind closed doors, not some kind of trial to then be debated which it invariably would be. I don't ban many people (mostly spammers etc, the parts of the forums I patrol are very well-behaved) but if I do then they'll receive a PM well beforehand - as we are always at pains to point out, if we ban you we're REALLY fed up with you!

It's also most likely to be the case that the mod doing the banning will most likely be on their own in mod-ing that board, since there's probably less than ten or fifteen of us covering the whole of http://www.motorsportforums.com nowadays and some of those are not regularly active. So it will just be an issue between the member and the mod and there's no other people to get involved (not that they'd have time to anyway). Not to mention we spend plenty of time doing Pickems/Fantasy League admin, clearing spam etc, and trying to be regular posters too...

Us interfering - deleting posts, locking threads etc - is again an utter last resort which we don't like doing as invariably the offender(s) will post the same thing again and complain about the original getting deleted! :)

[ioan]

Personally, I'm entirely against any kind of thread showing reasons why people are banned - moderating should be something that takes place behind closed doors...

Why am I not surprised to see a moderator trying to defend his unlimited power over his lil' slaves?

Ever thought about why the most developed countries in this world chose democracy over dictatorship?
Maybe because it's in the human nature not to trust what goes on behind closed doors?

Just my 2 cents, on this attempt to keep everything opaque.



Us interfering - deleting posts, locking threads etc - is again an utter last resort which we don't like doing as invariably the offender(s) will post the same thing again and complain about the original getting deleted! :)

Was that an allusion to the starter of this thread?

[Easy Drifter]

I have had a couple of run ins with Pino. However I think he does a superb job in very difficult circumstances. I know I can get a little heated. (Sorry Ioan).
I have even had a bit of a 'situation' with Starter who I usually get along with quite well.
Being a mod is not easy and I think our mods do a (oops have to change my wording) very good job.
I belong to a few other forums and one where I used to post a lot in their F1 section I now refuse to post in because of a very uptight and biased mod. I have even had the forum owners ask me to come back but after another silly closing of a thread will not post. I had not posted in that thread. I post in other sections.
Folks the mods have a tough job and we do get carried away at times so let us all take a deep breath and slow down.
Now where is my Scotch!

[patnicholls]

Why am I not surprised to see a moderator trying to defend his unlimited power over his lil' slaves?

Er, no. What do you mean by 'power' anyway? The only power we have is the power to clear up unwanted mess and we don't like it when we have to use it, as it's a waste of our time!


Ever thought about why the most developed countries in this world chose democracy over dictatorship?
Maybe because it's in the human nature not to trust what goes on behind closed doors?

Just my 2 cents, on this attempt to keep everything opaque.

Comparing a discussion forum with a country isn't an appropriate comparison because moderators are not leaders. If we put up a 'such-and-such was banned because of _____' thread, the only thing that would be likely to change from now would be a probably lengthy discussion on why that person should/shouldn't be banned - which is not the business of the public-at-large and would only accentuate the culture of 'churches' you mention earlier in this thread.


Was that an allusion to the starter of this thread?

No, I don't know him/her. I rarely venture into the F1 forum, for the most part. It's just a reflection on 'forum experience' here and elsewhere.

[Big Ben]

I think the best protocol would be common sense.

Does a ban for life actually work? Can't they reincarnate? :) )

[Mark]

There has been calls before for a set out sequence of rules that moderators need to follow. But I've always resisted this. Primarily because the moderators are just forum members like yourselves who give up their time to help out. So treating them like 'staff' and layout out strict procedures wouldn't create a good atmosphere IMO.

Plus every situation is different and I trust the moderators to be fair and balanced and deal with the situation with whatever actions are required. We're all adults here (most of us!) and most of us have more than a couple of brain cells between us so we shouldn't need a crib sheet to tell us how to do the job.

[Mark]

Does a ban for life actually work? Can't they reincarnate? :) )

It depends. A few people have been permanently banned and returned. Fred Bassett being one example.

If a suitable length of time (were talking a year or so, not weeks or even months) has passed then a return can be considered if I can be convinced things have changed.

Often temporary bans can be shortened if the person is apologetic, or turn into permanent bans if the person is aggressive in response.

[Sonic]

Compared to some forums I have been to (before settling here) this place has a nice atmosphere. Yeah there are some arguments, but as everyone has a different POV that will always be the case. Just smile and enjoy the fact that we have people who enjoy the same sport and want to share.

Or perhaps this is because I've got my rose tinted glasses on and nothing can put me in a bad mood at the moment. :)

Peace and love.

[Storm]

On the contrary, it should be for fun (hopefully you meant to say so). But like I said, EVERY thread gets vandalized and unless you stop arguing they end up being closed with bans or threats of bans flying around.

:erm: yeah a typo :donkey:
It indeed should be for fun and some debate but not for trading insults.

[ioan]

Often temporary bans can be shortened if the person is apologetic, or turn into permanent bans if the person is aggressive in response.

Good to know, but how exactly can you be apologetic when you don't have the slightest chance to communicate with the moderators when you are banned?!
I mean there is not even the slightest message from the mod saying why you were banned or anything related to the ban. There is not access to your account, not even to your PMs.
OK, so modes prefer not to make things public, let's say it's normal even if it really isn't cause as far as I'm concerned I don't care if the others know why I was banned, heck I'll ever prefer that they did know the reason. However they could at least tell the punished forum member what he was found guilty of.

IMO the procedures lack clarity of any kind.

[SGWilko]

Us interfering - deleting posts, locking threads etc - is again an utter last resort which we don't like doing as invariably the offender(s) will post the same thing again and complain about the original getting deleted! :)

Communication, my dear friend, communication.

If you tell us what you have done by PM, then [I] we have no issue.

Back handed digs from mods is unwelcome, and a little unhealthy IMMVHO.

[SGWilko]

No, I don't know him/her.

I am a him...

hang on, just checking.......

Yep, I'm a him.

Cough.... ;)

[SGWilko]

how exactly can you be apologetic when you don't have the slightest chance to communicate with the moderators when you are banned?!
I mean there is not even the slightest message from the mod saying why you were banned or anything related to the ban.

Ioan - Thank you! That there is the biggest issue, and is guaranteed to raise the most placid of people's blood pressure.

If you actually explain WHY we have the ban, then it is much easier to swallow. ***and a method of communication with mods while banned***

Having a message pop up saying 'banned for life' is insulting, especially when the ban is not for life.

Sort that aspect out and all will be well.

[SGWilko]

Whilst being 'Disgruntled of Dartford', I do not underestimate or undervalue the contribution to this forum from the Mods, so this thread is not in any way a personal vendetta to anyone on here.

Good discussion though....

[ioan]

Ioan - Thank you! That there is the biggest issue, and is guaranteed to raise the most placid of people's blood pressure.

If you actually explain WHY we have the ban, then it is much easier to swallow. ***and a method of communication with mods while banned***

Having a message pop up saying 'banned for life' is insulting, especially when the ban is not for life.

Sort that aspect out and all will be well.

Pretty much agree.

There is a total lack of communication between members and moderators, unless we consider menaces as being good communications.
And I believe this is why this thread was started even if it got derailed into what we forumers should do to make the mods life easier.

[DexDexter]

Ioan - Thank you! That there is the biggest issue, and is guaranteed to raise the most placid of people's blood pressure.

If you actually explain WHY we have the ban, then it is much easier to swallow. ***and a method of communication with mods while banned***

Having a message pop up saying 'banned for life' is insulting, especially when the ban is not for life.

Sort that aspect out and all will be well.

If a poster doesn't know why he is banned, he should stay away from the forum forever anyway. Every sane person knows what is reasonable towards others and what is not.

[I am evil Homer]

Why am I not surprised to see a moderator trying to defend his unlimited power over his lil' slaves?

Ever thought about why the most developed countries in this world chose democracy over dictatorship?
Maybe because it's in the human nature not to trust what goes on behind closed doors?

Just my 2 cents, on this attempt to keep everything opaque.

Was that an allusion to the starter of this thread?


We don't need thread stating why people are banned - it's not up for discussion and it would turn into a useless fight between different factions.

However a simple set of rules would be good: something like, any remarks on ethnicity, religion, sexuality etc automatic 48 hour ban so they calm down. Repeat offence 2 week ban. 3 time...permanent ban.

For times when debate gets heated I think again a 48 hour ban for being insulting (personal attacks) might make people think twice before they start hammering the keys - because lets be honest in the heat of the moment we all get a little slap happy on the keys!!!

I've kept out of certain threads before because of the abuse beign hurled around - usually by one or two people - who cannot seem to appreciate an alternate view simply because they feel they are right.

In summary a sticky FAQ/Forum Rules post at the top of each section stating:

"We're happy to host lively and robust debate but racists, bullies, sexist oafs and bigots are not welcome on these boards. Over the top swearing, endless personal attacks and needlessly disruptive conduct is not permitted and posters who continue such behaviour (after being asked to stop via a PM) will be banned. Threads that descend into personal insult-a-thons will be binned."

Banning/Temp bans If a user is banned they have two choices:
1. Apologise to the moderators in the hope of being reinstated.
2. Leave forever.

Temporary bans can be implemented if a poster goes over the top - these usually last from 48hrs/2 weeks to a month

If a poster is banned, DO NOT slap up posts/threads demanding an instant, in-depth explanation: searching through the user's last posts will probably reveal why they were banned, otherwise try politely PMing a moderator instead (although we're under no obligation whatsoever to dedicate time to answering individual requests). Posters who keep accruing temp bans over a short period can usually expect longer and longer bans for each subsequent offence."

[harsha]

Pat must have the easiest job @ the motorcycling forum,that's one of the sanest forums here...

anyway think the mods here are doing a splendid job,not a easy job to do and they are doing it to the best of their abilities...always a pleasure to visit this place,although i don't visit that often nowadays

[SGWilko]

We don't need thread stating why people are banned

Agreed indeed!

[I am evil Homer]

So do I - in fact it's a pretty thankless task at times - but a simple FAQ would suffice and serve to have clarity as to what is expected of every forum member. And if they need more mods I'd be happy to help out where I can.

[patnicholls]

In summary a sticky FAQ/Forum Rules post at the top of each section stating:

"We're happy to host lively and robust debate but racists, bullies, sexist oafs and bigots are not welcome on these boards. Over the top swearing, endless personal attacks and needlessly disruptive conduct is not permitted and posters who continue such behaviour (after being asked to stop via a PM) will be banned. Threads that descend into personal insult-a-thons will be binned."

Banning/Temp bans If a user is banned they have two choices:
1. Apologise to the moderators in the hope of being reinstated.
2. Leave forever.

Temporary bans can be implemented if a poster goes over the top - these usually last from 48hrs/2 weeks to a month

If a poster is banned, DO NOT slap up posts/threads demanding an instant, in-depth explanation: searching through the user's last posts will probably reveal why they were banned, otherwise try politely PMing a moderator instead (although we're under no obligation whatsoever to dedicate time to answering individual requests). Posters who keep accruing temp bans over a short period can usually expect longer and longer bans for each subsequent offence."

That seems like a reasonable enough set of guidelines. Mark, could we add something like that in to the FAQ at the top of the page next to User CP [or is that something set out by VBulletin rather than you?] I thought we had something like that in somewhere, but maybe that was on a previous version of the forum.

[patnicholls]

Communication, my dear friend, communication.

If you tell us what you have done by PM, then [i] we have no issue.

Back handed digs from mods is unwelcome, and a little unhealthy IMMVHO.

Yeah, I'd always PM someone to tell them off first, and would expect the same of others (I am being hypothetical for the most part here - as harsha says, the parts of the forum I cover are pretty much trouble-free fortunately and barring spammers I've only banned about five people in three or four years of being a mod). The only exception would be a thread that had got a long way out of control and the only option is to just close it with a short message to say so rather than PM-ing each of the people who'd made it that way. However, it's easier to keep on top of things in some parts of the forum than others for obvious reasons.

[markabilly]

Pino is a wonderful mod, very gentle, guys. You don't know a bad moderator.
Trust me.


Upon that i agree and as some know, I would have no problem putting to the contrary out in the open, esp as to a certain someone. Sometimes, and I have said so, there is a tendency to be rude to people by mods when they are responding to rudeness from others....which i have always thought to be a bit counter productive....like "I am sick of your stupid, rude comments".....

when yes, the comments were stupid and rude, but that is sort of like pouring gasoline on a fire and expecting the fire to suddelnly go out....



Pretty much agree.

There is a total lack of communication between members and moderators, unless we consider menaces as being good communications.
.

Actually it is like pouring gas on a fire and if it were from someone would other than a mod, would be a classic example of trolling or baiting....so just do as I say and "shut up or the next time it will be a permanent ban", yaydaada...attitude

all that kind of stuff just constitutes baiting, pure and simple, regardless of whether it comes from a poster or a mod, and why I got no use for a certain mod.



Yeah, I'd always PM someone to tell them off first, .
Prime example of baiting, pure and simple. Just cause you are a mod, don't mean you are god.

[I am evil Homer]

Prime example of baiting, pure and simple. Just cause you are a mod, don't mean you are god.


What are you talking about? He said he'd PM people warning them before banning them in his role as a moderator, which is what people have asked for.

[Roamy]

I always get warned :)
I think we should have a X rate free for all place on the forum !! Especially under Chit Chat.

The mods have always be great to me. Even Andi kicked my ass on many occasions. And God knows I would marry her without even having a first date :)

[ioan]

What are you talking about? He said he'd PM people warning them before banning them in his role as a moderator, which is what people have asked for.

Yep and that's what we ask for in the F1 forum too given that we aren't posting much in the bike forum.

[SGWilko]

I always get warned :)
I think we should have a X rate free for all place on the forum !! Especially under Chit Chat.

The mods have always be great to me. Even Andi kicked my ass on many occasions. And God knows I would marry her without even having a first date :)

Are you saying you are easy???? ;)

[woody2goody]

I know I'm not posting here this month, but I think this thread deserves an exception as it's pretty important regarding general conduct.

I must admit, ever since I've been posting here, I've not come across someone who has been banned who has not deserved it. It's true that a lot of other websites have mods who just dish out warnings and infractions left, right and centre, but here we have good mods who never shove it in your face that they can ban you.

It's just a case of being reasonable and knowing what is acceptable and what isn't. The only problem for the mods is, that what one person deems to be an acceptable way of behaving isn't the same as others, and more often than not that's what causes arguments.

From my experiences here, we generally have a very friendly forum with, 99% of the time, good enjoyable discussion, and that's how it should be. most of us get on with each other, we have a laugh and debate the issues at hand.

One thing that I do agree with is being able to communicate with the mods in an effort to apologise/grovel :D

[JasonD]

One thing that I do agree with is being able to communicate with the mods in an effort to apologise/grovel :D

Yes but when you get a response like this whats the point in even trying.


Sorry but I don't have time to reply to all members I give them an infraction...

[schmenke]

Yes but when you get a response like this whats the point in even trying.

Understand and respect the forum rules and you won't have to put yourself in a position where you need to apologise/grovel :mark:

Understand that, as has been mentioned numerous times, all the mods are unpaid volunteers - They have no obligation to respond to every PM.
Pester them long enough with childish whi(g)nes and they may just get sufficiently frustrated and bugger off, leaving the forum unmoderated.
Be thankful for the job they do for without them this place probably wouldn't exist at all.

[ioan]

Understand and respect the forum rules and you won't have to put yourself in a position where you need to apologise/grovel :mark:

Reality is not as clear cut as this, and the existence of this thread is a proof to that.
also the rules aren't very clear either, to much gray area, a bit like the FIA rules that are made along the way.

[truefan72]

Reality is not as clear cut as this, and the existence of this thread is a proof to that.
also the rules aren't very clear either, to much gray area, a bit like the FIA rules that are made along the way.

although a gray area exists, most of us know when that proverbial line has been crossed.

[ioan]

although a gray area exists, most of us know when that proverbial line has been crossed.

But you have to admit that we are not all alike.

[airshifter]

If a poster doesn't know why he is banned, he should stay away from the forum forever anyway. Every sane person knows what is reasonable towards others and what is not.

Stop making sense!

Many people seem to think the entire thing should be done by democracy. Great. They should take a vote on what everyone wants, make a FAQ, set down strict guidelines for the moderators, make a global warning log to all moderators can access it for repeat violation cases, and....

...... invite people to come to the new forum they have created. :laugh:



I think it's a lot easier for people to just follow the rules myself. Hats off to the mods that deal with all the childish crap year after year.

[SGWilko]

If a poster doesn't know why he is banned, he should stay away from the forum forever anyway.

WHat i meant was...

If you receive a ban for something that was deemed acceptable elsewhere, and you do not get given the courtesy of a reason for the ban by PM, then ill feeling is created.

If i post on here that 'so and so is a t****r', then yes, I understand and would fully expect a ban.

However, If I post 'so and so is uneducated', and I get a ban, but others have essentially posted the same without so much as a blink of an eye, then that is where the animosity kicks in.

It is not only about common sense, but setting the framework whereby there can be no ambiguity.

[ioan]

WHat i meant was...

If you receive a ban for something that was deemed acceptable elsewhere, and you do not get given the courtesy of a reason for the ban by PM, then ill feeling is created.

If i post on here that 'so and so is a t****r', then yes, I understand and would fully expect a ban.

However, If I post 'so and so is uneducated', and I get a ban, but others have essentially posted the same without so much as a blink of an eye, then that is where the animosity kicks in.

It is not only about common sense, but setting the framework whereby there can be no ambiguity.

Voila!
This is where the problem is, inconsistency coupled with a total lack of transparency. And that's why there is need for a set of clear rules.

A find it a bit daft that people who usually are up in arms with the FIA for having huge holes in the rules and lacking transparency in their decisions making processes are now saying it's OK to have the forum ruled in the same way.
How can that be?!

[SGWilko]

starts saying the UK, America, Romania, France is full of whimps with no back bone bla bla bla, you know you are crossing the line

Indeed, but does that make it any more or less acceptable? Should the mods turn a blind eye? Are they setting a dangerous precedent if they do? I think this is a fair question to ask.

If you let 'society' run this way, you are in for a whole lotta trouble.

[ioan]

As they have said they can't read every post and it is down to us to report abusive behaviour. Its then left to them to decide whether action should be taken.

And there's the reason why this thread was started, IMO, because the decisions are taken rather based on the taste of the cappuccino than some well outlined process and rules and this brings along the inconsistency.

[Knock-on]

I always get warned :)
I think we should have a X rate free for all place on the forum !! Especially under Chit Chat.

The mods have always be great to me. Even Andi kicked my ass on many occasions. And God knows I would marry her without even having a first date :)


Ahhhh Andi. I have met her and will fight you on the Golf Course for her hand. :love:

Last I heard, the shrinking violet had been excluded from Max's Dungeon for being too extreem and was advising the BBC on how to make a really hard hitting series of "The New Statesman" rather than Rick Mayall's namby pamby one :D

Come back Andi and whip these low lifes into shape (starting with me :kiss: )

[SGWilko]

Ahhhh Andi. I have met her and will fight you on the Golf Course for her hand. :love:

Last I heard, the shrinking violet had been excluded from Max's Dungeon for being too extreem and was advising the BBC on how to make a really hard hitting series of "The New Statesman" rather than Rick Mayall's namby pamby one :D

Come back Andi and whip these low lifes into shape (starting with me :kiss: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNC0kIzM1Fo

[Knock-on]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNC0kIzM1Fo

You obviously haven't had the pleasure of her size 12 Hob Nail Boots inserted up yer Jacksee.

Amazing woman our Andi :D

[SGWilko]

You obviously haven't had the pleasure of her size 12 Hob Nail Boots inserted up yer Jacksee.

Amazing woman our Andi :D

My eyes are watering already......

[markabilly]

To be honest most of us here are adults and know when we are crossing the line of common decency... If someone calls you ill educated, a twerp (or words to that effect), starts saying the UK, America, Romania, France is full of whimps with no back bone bla bla bla, you know you are crossing the line... We are here to debate F1 and yes the threads will get side tracked every now and then, and yes people will disagree and ask for proof, but it up to us to maintain a level of maturity.

Respond using wit, and defend your point. If someone has proved you wrong, or disagrees with you don't lower yourself by using childish responses containing insults.. Simple as that...

Just a thought... :s mokin:


So practice what you preach, in that particular thread you and a couple of others took all sorts of personal shots at me and ioan through out, from the begginning. Crud about american superioty and such. Constantly, and then when the thread was re-ignited , I finally gave you what you deserved, a shot in return, but i admit it was a low blow and hurt, as truth always is a killer blow for some, yet intended as sarcasm, and you could not take it. And so you reported it, did you?

:rotflmao:

I don't mind someone taking the micky out of my country, but when it is directed as an insult because I have defended something I beleive is true, then it shouldn't be allowed. This very thing happened to me earlier in the week and if I had not reported it, the Mods would not have noticed it maybe. ...............

Fine for you to take the shots on America, as long no one responds as to the current status of the formerly Great Britan.....Such an attitude of wanting to dish it out, but not willing to take it, seems to be a prime qualification for many moderator, so I nominate you as Pino's replacement. Do i hear a second?


For the record, other than obvious spanners, I have never reported anyone that i can recall, though the shots have been hard and personal, and seldom responded back, except with humor.

BTW--I never called you "ill educated" or "twerp", but now that i think about, :confused: humm, :confused: thanks for the inspiration.....

[Knock-on]

:rolleyes:

[janneppi]

It's hard to ignore somebody cause others quote him and you get to see some of the posts.

If you are using Firefox, there are extension to properly ignore people on forums, for example
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/?t=23573

Apparently some of them should work with Opera browsers too, but I'haven been able to make it work yet.

;)

[SGWilko]

:rolleyes:

Gives fuel for the raison detre of the thread starter, eh? ;)

[ioan]

Gives fuel for the raison detre of the thread starter, eh? ;)

Rather for the raison d'etre of this thread?

[Knock-on]

Rather for the raison d'etre of this thread?

I suppose so :laugh:

I suppose some people cannot let it go :D

I suppose it's Friday and I need Beer.

What do you suppose :)

:beer:

[ioan]

I suppose so :laugh:

I suppose some people cannot let it go :D

I suppose it's Friday and I need Beer.

What do you suppose :)

:beer:

I'm not too much into suppositions. :D

[Knock-on]

I'm not too much into suppositions. :D

After a couple of pints of "Ole rumble bottom" I may even start believing your posts are factual :D

Have a good weekend everyone :wave:

[henners88]

I suppose so :laugh:

I suppose some people cannot let it go :D

I suppose it's Friday and I need Beer.

What do you suppose :)

:beer:

I think i'll join you there Knockie.... ;)

[pino]

Voila!
This is where the problem is, inconsistency coupled with a total lack of transparency. And that's why there is need for a set of clear rules.



Clear rules ? There's a 2 years old thread stuck on top page with clear rules, wich is constantly ignored every single day by many members (you included) in here. Furthermore I always warn people at least halfdozen of times before I give them a temporary ban, what else should I do to keep this place clean and enjoyable ? How about most of you will finally start to act like mature people and not like kids ? That will solv most of the problems in here...

[Mark]

Amen.

[Valve Bounce]

Some people, like myself, like to come here for a bit of fun, as well as to have a chat with other members in an F1 motorsport ambiance. This place is a treasure trove of information flavored by a huge difference in likes and dislikes. I love cracking jokes, especially about bunsen.

Then there are those who come here for mostly serious discussions. They know their facts which are sometimes biased by their favorites and their non-favorites.

Then there are those who consider themselves very knowledgeable, and probably are, and sieve through the various threads for posts which are factually incorrect or that they disagree with. They then pick on these forum members and call them less than flattering names and start quarrels with them.

Then there are the few who are known as moderators who have the difficult task of trying to keep the peace here.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I have to laugh at Ioan and Markabilly's complaints about the moderation on here. On any other F1 forum I visit, both would've been perma-banned a long, long time ago. Stop biting the hand that feeds you lads, eh?

[Valve Bounce]

I have to laugh at Ioan and Markabilly's complaints about the moderation on here. On any other F1 forum I visit, both would've been perma-banned a long, long time ago. Stop biting the hand that feeds you lads, eh?

Hey Beans!! you know all those jokes I made about you, you knew I was joking, right?? :p :

[ioan]

I have to laugh at Ioan and Markabilly's complaints about the moderation on here. On any other F1 forum I visit, both would've been perma-banned a long, long time ago. Stop biting the hand that feeds you lads, eh?

Excuse me?!
If someone 'feeds' you around here than fine, there isn't such for me.

As for laughing at other forum members I thought that this thread was exactly about getting rid of such behavior.
And it looks like exactly those who sit on their high horse are those who like to throw insults around most. :\

[SGWilko]

I have to laugh at Ioan and Markabilly's complaints about the moderation on here. On any other F1 forum I visit, both would've been perma-banned a long, long time ago. Stop biting the hand that feeds you lads, eh?

Easy now. At least Ioan's comments were an attempt at being constructive. Lets keep this thread alive, and healthy with constructive discussion, not petty squabbling.

I do see your point to an extent. And I tried to point out that this thread is not a vehicle to bash the mods. Anyone giving up their time for my benefit without reward is a better person than me....

[SGWilko]

I suppose so :laugh:

I suppose some people cannot let it go :D

I suppose it's Friday and I need Beer.

What do you suppose :)

:beer:

I don't suppose you suppose too much?? ;)

[DexDexter]

Fine for you to take the shots on America, as long no one responds as to the current status of the formerly Great Britan.....Such an attitude of wanting to dish it out, but not willing to take it, seems to be a prime qualification for many moderator, so I nominate you as Pino's replacement. Do i hear a second?
.

If your writing is about how good everything is over there compared to some other place, it's natural that you maybe be brought back into reality. That's not offensive, that's reality.

[ioan]

Guys why not stick to the subject of this thread?

[markabilly]

Guys why not stick to the subject of this thread?
cause they are british.....the same type that when I said that el supremo F1 should at least be able to match the safety response of the IRL (-aka "idiot retarded losers"-which I hold no regard for as a series, or for its drivers, including star DP), these Brits and others immediately get a dose of diaherra of the mouth about me bragging about american superiority when the point was anything but that :rolleyes:

Typical. And my point earlier in this thread which flew right over those same folks, was that if the mods ever figured out that they should practice what they preach, they might have fewer problems.....

And for the record, Pino bothered me once, with a one point hit, now expired, for taking a thread off subject over two or three years years ago, right after I joined......and that has been it. Unlike the most of the rest of you.... :rotflmao:

But the reason for that is i figure he put me on his ignore list right after that first hit....or it could be the steady supply of kool aid :beer:


yeah Valve,


Some people, like myself, like to come here for a bit of fun, as well as to have a chat with other members in an F1 motorsport ambiance. This place is a treasure trove of information flavored by a huge difference in likes and dislikes. I love cracking jokes, especially about bunsen.


They don't get it

[SGWilko]

cause they are british.....the same type that when I said that el supremo F1 should at least be able to match the safety response of the IRL (-aka "idiot retarded losers"-which I hold no regard for as a series, or for its drivers, including star DP), these Brits and others immediately get a dose of diaherra of the mouth about me bragging about american superiority when the point was anything but that :rolleyes:

Typical. And my point earlier in this thread which flew right over those same folks, was that if the mods ever figured out that they should practice what they preach, they might have fewer problems.....

And for the record, Pino bothered me once, with a one point hit, now expired, for taking a thread off subject over two or three years years ago, right after I joined......and that has been it. Unlike the most of the rest of you.... :rotflmao:

But the reason for that is i figure he put me on his ignore list right after that first hit....or it could be the steady supply of kool aid :beer:


yeah Valve,


They don't get it

May I suggest you get a TeeShirt printed, in the same vain as 'bo!!ox to the Poll Tax' and wear that a lot (don't forget to wash it once in a while) then you can really labour the point.

In fact, over here in good ole not so great any more Britain there is a spare plinth at Trafalgar Square you could stand atop to get your message across.

Or speakers corner - Sundays only - really, we get it, just it wears a little thin during repetition.

Y'all have a nice day now folks.

High tiddly dee, it's a forum posters life for me! :rotflmao:

[BDunnell]

Easy now. At least Ioan's comments were an attempt at being constructive. Lets keep this thread alive, and healthy with constructive discussion, not petty squabbling.

I do see your point to an extent. And I tried to point out that this thread is not a vehicle to bash the mods. Anyone giving up their time for my benefit without reward is a better person than me....

Well, none of the 'problems' (and I do believe there are some, sadly, and which could be very easily resolved) are really likely to be sorted out in this thread, are they?

[SGWilko]

Well, none of the 'problems' (and I do believe there are some, sadly, and which could be very easily resolved) are really likely to be sorted out in this thread, are they?

You never know. A problem aired is a problem shared.

[BDunnell]

You never know. A problem aired is a problem shared.

But it is clearly having bugger all effect. (By the way, I'm certainly not having a go at you for starting the thread.)

[SGWilko]

But it is clearly having bugger all effect. (By the way, I'm certainly not having a go at you for starting the thread.)

Actually, I think I may have a noticed a little less bickering of late, or is that wasted optimism??? ;)

Yeah, I know. Thanks. :)

[markabilly]

May I suggest you get a TeeShirt printed, in the same vain as 'bo!!ox to the Poll Tax' and wear that a lot (don't forget to wash it once in a while) then you can really labour the point.

In fact, over here in good ole not so great any more Britain there is a spare plinth at Trafalgar Square you could stand atop to get your message across.

Or speakers corner - Sundays only - really, we get it, just it wears a little thin during repetition.

Y'all have a nice day now folks.

High tiddly dee, it's a forum posters life for me! :rotflmao:

Maybe some day i will join you there, but u will have to make room.

What about shoes, seems your feet should get a bit cold in the winter, but i guess you got used to it along with not washing your shirt.....

[harsha]

lol,you people think moderating is easy....trust me it isn't...

I moderate a cricket forum where there are a lot of fights between Indians and Pakistanis...often nationalism is the issue there....and it gets pretty tough trying to moderate there....

I think the mods might be feeling the same out here....

[SGWilko]

Maybe some day i will join you there, but u will have to make room.

What about shoes, seems your feet should get a bit cold in the winter, but i guess you got used to it along with not washing your shirt.....

Don't fret, plenty of room, and if need need be just ask Nelson to move over.

Shoes? Just wear thick socks, but with global warming we don't suffer like what we used to.

And as for shirts, domestic management takes care of all that!

[SGWilko]

lol,you people think moderating is easy....trust me it isn't...

I moderate a cricket forum where there are a lot of fights between Indians and Pakistanis...often nationalism is the issue there....and it gets pretty tough trying to moderate there....

I think the mods might be feeling the same out here....

Easy on that forum, you just tell them;

Come on now, behave, its just not cricket! :D

[harsha]

Easy on that forum, you just tell them;

Come on now, behave, its just not cricket! :D

lol...i wish it's as easy as that... :cheese:

It's just that the hatred between the two countries often creeps into individual opinions and is difficult to control...

almost the same as the opinions on Schumacher...so I can understand what the mods here have to put up with

[Valve Bounce]

these Brits and others immediately get a dose of diaherra of the mouth



diaherra??? Excuse me, but you are not allowed to ever, ever use this word unless you can spell it.

It's the first word to learn to spell if you want to chuck a sickie!! :D

[Dave B]

Easy on that forum, you just tell them;

Come on now, behave, its just not cricket! :D
I wanted to post another pun but I'm stumped. :dozey:

[SGWilko]

I wanted to post another pun but I'm stumped. :dozey:

Time to get a legover..... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k0qZDdfvZk

[Knock-on]

I wanted to post another pun but I'm stumped. :dozey:

I think you're trying to take this topic wide of the mark my friend. Watch out Pino doesn't have you by the googlies and kick you to the boundery otherwise it may all be over :p

Well, that's 4 for you but i suppose that it would be a silly point to mention that 2 more makes it 6?

[SGWilko]

I think you're trying to take this topic wide of the mark my friend. Watch out Pino doesn't have you by the googlies and kick you to the boundery otherwise it may all be over :p

Well, that's 4 for you but i suppose that it would be a silly point to mention that 2 more makes it 6?

Watch out you don't get given a sticky wicket....

[pino]

Please let's keep this thread on topic...thank you :)

[Knock-on]

Debate and discuss in a reasonable manner.
Don't insult people by questioning things like their education.
If you make a claim, back it up with some sort of proof or state it as opinion.
If someone challenges your post, don't just ignore it and post the same again, have the decency to respond to them otherwise you are just trolling.
And finally, accept if you're wrong and act reasonably.


I would like to say that this is in no way an attack on anyone but merely an observation and I'm using one of ioans posts to illustrate my point.

One of the thing that frustrates people on here is when people appear to be hypocritical in their approach. I'm not talking about favouring one driver over another but when you say something is fine for your team but when it happens against someone you don't support, suddenly it's terrible.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=689835&postcount=18

How about a bit of consistency and if you are wrong, just admit it rather than ignoring another members valid point?

Just out of respect, bit of give and take and accepting if you get it wrong?

[BDunnell]

I would like to say that this is in no way an attack on anyone but merely an observation and I'm using one of ioans posts to illustrate my point.

One of the thing that frustrates people on here is when people appear to be hypocritical in their approach. I'm not talking about favouring one driver over another but when you say something is fine for your team but when it happens against someone you don't support, suddenly it's terrible.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=689835&postcount=18

How about a bit of consistency and if you are wrong, just admit it rather than ignoring another members valid point?

Just out of respect, bit of give and take and accepting if you get it wrong?

This is precisely the sort of thing that I've been moaning about for ages. It is impossible to have a sensible discussion with people — mentioning no names, naturally — whose opinions vary so wildly along those lines, even if the variance is boringly predictable and the likelihood of it happening can be spotted a mile off depending on which teams/drivers are involved.

[ioan]

Just out of respect, bit of give and take and accepting if you get it wrong?

You're probably right, accepting when you get it wrong is something that maybe everyone should learn to do.
Here's a thread where you all will find how a forum member does not accept when he's wrong not even when reality slaps him in the face:

http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131631&highlight=KERS

So what about applying what you preach? You know, just out of respect for everyone. :\

BTW I would like to say that this is in no way an attack on anyone but merely an observation and I'm using Knockie's posts in this case to illustrate my point.

PS: It's a 4 page read but mostly interesting. You should go directly to page 4 if you don't want to read it all.

[ioan]

Well done ioan your side stepped that like a pro.. ;)

My point is that we all are biased a bit and such at least slightly hypocritical, and maybe we shouldn't judge others when we aren't better at all. Or as I said apply what we preach.

[ioan]

The very recent post you made on the Vettel thread was a proven contradiction and you didn't answer the critics. You could have done that in a jokey way, with a smiley face at the end and your respect would have peeked, but you chose not to.. Anyway it in the past now, and as we know life is all based on perceptions... :)

I didn't read what wedge posted in the Vettel thread but If you say I posted something contradictory than so be it, I was most probably wrong in that case.

[Knock-on]

You're probably right, accepting when you get it wrong is something that maybe everyone should learn to do.
Here's a thread where you all will find how a forum member does not accept when he's wrong not even when reality slaps him in the face:

http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131631&highlight=KERS

So what about applying what you preach? You know, just out of respect for everyone. :\

BTW I would like to say that this is in no way an attack on anyone but merely an observation and I'm using Knockie's posts in this case to illustrate my point.

PS: It's a 4 page read but mostly interesting. You should go directly to page 4 if you don't want to read it all.

http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=595051&postcount=73

I don't think I ever said you were wrong but merely stated that I couldn't understand it.

You produced "proof" from a commercial site which used what looked like a lifted Ferrari press release and I just asked for confirmation which you duely supplied and I acknowledged.

Unfortunatly, you had descended to name calling by then and the thread died which was a pity. I still believe, especially in this KERS renaissance we seem to be having this season, that there is much more of interest to discuss on the subject.

So, in conclusion, lets not look at right and wrong on a historical thread but look at the lessons and try and keep it civil (which we are all guilty of getting frustrated and ignoring).

[ioan]

http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=595051&postcount=73

I don't think I ever said you were wrong but merely stated that I couldn't understand it.

You produced "proof" from a commercial site which used what looked like a lifted Ferrari press release and I just asked for confirmation which you duely supplied and I acknowledged.

Unfortunatly, you had descended to name calling by then and the thread died which was a pity. I still believe, especially in this KERS renaissance we seem to be having this season, that there is much more of interest to discuss on the subject.

So, in conclusion, lets not look at right and wrong on a historical thread but look at the lessons and try and keep it civil (which we are all guilty of getting frustrated and ignoring).

Thanks for proving my point about hypocrisy and not being able to accept when you are wrong.

If you would have just stated that it is tiresome when someone can't accept he is wrong I would have fully agreed with you.
Your need to pin it on someone is what made me point out that you were not in a position to question any other forum member's behavior.

I agree we need to learn from the past and keep things civil, but that also means not starting with pointing the finger to anyone in the first place.

And I believe that starting with a disclaimer like your post that this isn't about any specific forum member or such, it's worth nothing when you go ahead to point at certain people, it's just thin veiled hypocrisy the same hypocrisy you are criticizing.

[Big Ben]

Seeing the popularity of this thread maybe we should have a thread just for insults :laugh: .

[Knock-on]

ioan

Believe it or not, I wasn't having a pop at you but seeing as this thread was still relevant, I used a relevant example. The fact it was one of yours wasn't a case of singleing you out but rather not having much option as you are about the worst offender IMHO ;)

You have a valid point in claiming that I never admitted you were right about the location of the KERS into the drive of the Ferrari. However, this is simply because I never claimed you were wrong, ond only that it made no sense to me why it was located there. I am still intrigued as to why they placed it before the drive but accept, as I accepted in the thread, that the article you produced from Ferrari (as you later managed to confirm) did indeed confirm your claim that it was mounted on the engine. Although as I never claimed you were wrong, I am at a loss to understand your claim of hypocrisy. All I did say was that I didn't understand something and will carry on digging around until I do so. Forgive me my ignorance but I like to understand things fully :)

As far as forum protocol goes, if you mistakenly believed that I accused you of being wrong then I appologise for you misinterpretation of my posts as I have obviously failed to convey my intentions at a simple enough level.

Now, is everyone Happy?

[ioan]

ioan

Believe it or not, I wasn't having a pop at you but seeing as this thread was still relevant, I used a relevant example. The fact it was one of yours wasn't a case of singleing you out but rather not having much option as you are about the worst offender IMHO ;)

You have a valid point in claiming that I never admitted you were right about the location of the KERS into the drive of the Ferrari. However, this is simply because I never claimed you were wrong, ond only that it made no sense to me why it was located there. I am still intrigued as to why they placed it before the drive but accept, as I accepted in the thread, that the article you produced from Ferrari (as you later managed to confirm) did indeed confirm your claim that it was mounted on the engine. Although as I never claimed you were wrong, I am at a loss to understand your claim of hypocrisy. All I did say was that I didn't understand something and will carry on digging around until I do so. Forgive me my ignorance but I like to understand things fully :)

As far as forum protocol goes, if you mistakenly believed that I accused you of being wrong then I appologise for you misinterpretation of my posts as I have obviously failed to convey my intentions at a simple enough level.

Now, is everyone Happy?

I just think that saying that accepting when one's wrong would greatly improve the forum's stability because not doing so disgruntles people who are trying hard to have a nice discussion about various F1 related subjects.

Singling out one case was the bad approach IMO and I found it hypocritical.

Let's forget about this now and as I said let's try to apply what we preach in this thread.

[wedge]

Let's forget about this now and as I said let's try to apply what we preach in this thread.

This would be a good place to start:


http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134992&page=2

[Knock-on]

I just think that saying that accepting when one's wrong would greatly improve the forum's stability because not doing so disgruntles people who are trying hard to have a nice discussion about various F1 related subjects.

Singling out one case was the bad approach IMO and I found it hypocritical.

Let's forget about this now and as I said let's try to apply what we preach in this thread.

:up:

I appreciate your point about singleing a single post out. I don't agree that I was being hypocritical (as I explained) but do agree it was not the best approach as it could be seen as inflamatory (although I didn't mean it to be but with the current ethos of forum Glasnost, sought to help define in practice some of the principles we were discussing.)

Onwards and upwards with my apologies.

[harsha]

My point is that we all are biased a bit and such at least slightly hypocritical, and maybe we shouldn't judge others when we aren't better at all. Or as I said apply what we preach.

:up:

[BDunnell]

I just think that saying that accepting when one's wrong would greatly improve the forum's stability because not doing so disgruntles people who are trying hard to have a nice discussion about various F1 related subjects.

Singling out one case was the bad approach IMO and I found it hypocritical.

Let's forget about this now and as I said let's try to apply what we preach in this thread.

Which clearly shows no signs of happening under any circumstances.

[wedge]

Wonder how long Ioan's Ignore List will grow?

Won't be long till he starts arguing with himself when he'll be all alone on the Forum.

[ioan]

Well I've done my level best to get onto it for the past 2 days..

And to punish you I kept you off my list! :p :

[SGWilko]

Well I've done my level best to get onto it for the past 2 days.. Only joking ioan... ;)

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise to everyone for my conduct over the past couple of days. I'm quite a head strong person much like ioan and never give up if I'm sure I am right. There are plenty of occassions where I agree with ioan and I will back him up where necessary.

Ioan is obviously a very committed Ferrari fan and maybe sometimes he gets the famous Tifosi red mist which clouds his judgement when regarding rival teams. I certainly defend Mclaren enough on here and am guilty myself of not always considering all the facts. One thing I am proud of is the fact I do not bash other teams as I do not buy into this 'football style' hatred that has developed in F1 over the past years. I will however, point out inconsistencies with rules or if someone argues one team can commit offences, but its ok if its another bla bla bla... I have a huge respect for Ferrari even if that respect is not always conveyed back towards my chosen driver/team the way I would like it.. But hey thats life..

Anyway its always going to be like this from time to time, but sorry for my part in it for the last 2 days...

God I should work for Renault or Mclaren with that apology.... or do I? ha!! ;)

Peace out brothers and sisters :s mokin:

Amen! :up:

[BDunnell]

Well I've done my level best to get onto it for the past 2 days.. Only joking ioan... ;)

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise to everyone for my conduct over the past couple of days. I'm quite a head strong person much like ioan and never give up if I'm sure I am right. There are plenty of occassions where I agree with ioan and I will back him up where necessary.

Ioan is obviously a very committed Ferrari fan and maybe sometimes he gets the famous Tifosi red mist which clouds his judgement when regarding rival teams. I certainly defend Mclaren enough on here and am guilty myself of not always considering all the facts. One thing I am proud of is the fact I do not bash other teams as I do not buy into this 'football style' hatred that has developed in F1 over the past years. I will however, point out inconsistencies with rules or if someone argues one team can commit offences, but its ok if its another bla bla bla... I have a huge respect for Ferrari even if that respect is not always conveyed back towards my chosen driver/team the way I would like it.. But hey thats life..

Anyway its always going to be like this from time to time, but sorry for my part in it for the last 2 days...

God I should work for Renault or Mclaren with that apology.... or do I? ha!! ;)

Peace out brothers and sisters :s mokin:

I don't think you have anything to apologise for.

[SGWilko]

I don't think you have anything to apologise for.

So who do we blame now that Chas 'n Dave have split up? :bigcry:

[jens]

Eh? There was a thread about henners88 vs ioan, which got locked. Is this some kind of a playoff round? Who am I going to bicker with? :D

[DexDexter]

Well I've done my level best to get onto it for the past 2 days.. Only joking ioan... ;)

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise to everyone for my conduct over the past couple of days. I'm quite a head strong person much like ioan and never give up if I'm sure I am right. There are plenty of occassions where I agree with ioan and I will back him up where necessary.

Ioan is obviously a very committed Ferrari fan and maybe sometimes he gets the famous Tifosi red mist which clouds his judgement when regarding rival teams. I certainly defend Mclaren enough on here and am guilty myself of not always considering all the facts. One thing I am proud of is the fact I do not bash other teams as I do not buy into this 'football style' hatred that has developed in F1 over the past years. I will however, point out inconsistencies with rules or if someone argues one team can commit offences, but its ok if its another bla bla bla... I have a huge respect for Ferrari even if that respect is not always conveyed back towards my chosen driver/team the way I would like it.. But hey thats life..

Anyway its always going to be like this from time to time, but sorry for my part in it for the last 2 days...

God I should work for Renault or Mclaren with that apology.... or do I? ha!! ;)

Peace out brothers and sisters :s mokin:

I think you behave yourself very well at all times. :up:

[Knock-on]

So who do we blame now that Chas 'n Dave have split up? :bigcry:

Chas n Dave will never split up. NEVER!

[ArrowsFA1]

Chas n Dave have split up? :eek:

What is wrong with this world :bigcry:

[SGWilko]

Chas n Dave will never split up. NEVER!

Sit down Knocky, I don't know how to break it to you buddy, sob.

I'm, sob, really, sob, sorry;

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23747390-details/Cockney+favourites+Chas+%26+Dave+split/article.do

:bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: