Kimi's future - No racing in 2010?

[truefan72]

where will he go, waht will he do

1. I hope he comes back to McLaren. It would make an excellent team and we would have 2 race winning cars

2. He might leave F1 altogether. To me this is less likely despite his love affair with rallying. I recall many years back when F1 drivers would (were allowed by their teams to) compete in other racing series and races. Why should it be any different for Kimi. at 29, Kimi is in the peak performance window of an F1 driver and he will likely continue in the top flight successfully both on track and financially if he can.

3. I hear Renault is courting him with Nokia joining the courtship. I heard he as already refused a $45 mill deal from Renault (which should extinguish any notion of them leaving the sport. soon after this nonsense inquiry from the FIA ceases)

4. A megadeal with the new incarnation of BMW. They have the team, the cars and with a decent engine the right setup to be a top competitor so, he might take a stab there with some serious cash and well developed chasis.

[Tazio]

I foresee him buying out Ben and Jerry :dozey:

.

[DexDexter]

where will he go, waht will he do

1. I hope he comes back to McLaren. It would make an excellent team and we would have 2 race winning cars

2. He might leave F1 altogether. To me this is less likely despite his love affair with rallying. I recall many years back when F1 drivers would (were allowed by their teams to) compete in other racing series and races. Why should it be any different for Kimi. at 29, Kimi is in the peak performance window of an F1 driver and he will likely continue in the top flight successfully both on track and financially if he can.

3. I hear Renault is courting him with Nokia joining the courtship. I heard he as already refused a $45 mill deal from Renault (which should extinguish any notion of them leaving the sport. soon after this nonsense inquiry from the FIA ceases)

4. A megadeal with the new incarnation of BMW. They have the team, the cars and with a decent engine the right setup to be a top competitor so, he might take a stab there with some serious cash and well developed chasis.

Nokia will not sponsor Renault, they said it loud and clear in the Finnish media. Kimi doesn't want to go anywhere, he has said it time and time again. If he suddenly didn't have a car, I'd imagine Mclaren would be an option, BMW isn't.

[jimakos]

I was waiting unpetient for a thread about Kimi!!
I think he finally will stay in Ferrari!!
And I hope so...
Or he'll be moved in WRC!
It sounds Fiat wants him a lot for leading the team...

[DexDexter]

I was waiting unpetient for a thread about Kimi!!
I think he finally will stay in Ferrari!!
And I hope so...
Or he'll be moved in WRC!
It sounds Fiat wants him a lot for leading the team...

He has said he wants to do F1 next year, not rallying. Rallying is a hobby.

[jimakos]

He has said he wants to do F1 next year, not rallying. Rallying is a hobby.

We have just to wait and see mate...
I want him in F1 and especially in Ferrari!!
With Massa they can make Ferrari again first :)

[Eki]

I foresee him buying out Ben and Jerry :dozey:

.
Or Tom and Jerry:

rdNdmc83xe4

[Tazio]

Or Tom and Jerry:

rdNdmc83xe4 :rotflmao:

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[Hawkmoon]

I think Raikkonen's future is whatever he makes of it. In the 3 races of Massa's abscence he's delivered 3 podiums including a win. Where the hell was that Kimi for the last 12 months or more?

If he continues to deliver at that rate not only will Ferrari want to keep him but the rest of the grid will be falling over the get him.

F1 isn't done with Raikkonen yet. Is Raikkonen done with F1? The answer appears to be no.

[jimakos]

I think Raikkonen's future is whatever he makes of it. In the 3 races of Massa's abscence he's delivered 3 podiums including a win. Where the hell was that Kimi for the last 12 months or more?

If he continues to deliver at that rate not only will Ferrari want to keep him but the rest of the grid will be falling over the get him.

F1 isn't done with Raikkonen yet. Is Raikkonen done with F1? The answer appears to be no.

Absolutely right!
Neither I believe F1 is done with Raikkonen yet.
I hope he manage to stay in my favorite Ferrari!!

[I am evil Homer]

F1 will be poorer without Kimi so I hope he continues for a good few years.

[Saint Devote]

Raikonnen is not going anywhere.

He has openly stated that he has reached all his goals except one and that he will do this as long as he is enjoying himself.

The one goal he stated last year was to win the ITALIAN GRAND PRIX at Monza in a Ferrari. He consideres driving for Ferrari to be special to drive for.

And they put no burdens on him because they respect his space and privacy.

I say everyone has to wait for Monza next week.......!

[Saint Devote]

F1 will be poorer without Kimi so I hope he continues for a good few years.

I agree and there are only two teams worthy of Raikonnen - MAclaren and Ferrari.

Yes, I consider him that good.

[keysersoze]

I agree and there are only two teams worthy of Raikonnen - MAclaren and Ferrari.

So the two teams that have won 9 races between them--and currently lie 1st and 2nd in the WCC--aren't worthy of Kimi?

[jimakos]

Raikonnen is not going anywhere.

He has openly stated that he has reached all his goals except one and that he will do this as long as he is enjoying himself.

The one goal he stated last year was to win the ITALIAN GRAND PRIX at Monza in a Ferrari. He consideres driving for Ferrari to be special to drive for.

And they put no burdens on him because they respect his space and privacy.

I say everyone has to wait for Monza next week.......!

We are waiting for Monza with no patience!!
Do you think he can make another win in Italy?

[ClarkFan]

I think Raikkonen's future is whatever he makes of it. In the 3 races of Massa's abscence he's delivered 3 podiums including a win. Where the hell was that Kimi for the last 12 months or more?

If he continues to deliver at that rate not only will Ferrari want to keep him but the rest of the grid will be falling over the get him.

F1 isn't done with Raikkonen yet. Is Raikkonen done with F1? The answer appears to be no.

Kimi to Ferrari may be the "surprise anouncement" at Monza. The Alonso rumors have never really solidified, and KR does have a contract to drive for Ferrari in 2010. In an odd way, Massa's accident may have relit the fire for KR - he knows again that he is the team leader and responsible for making things happen.

Plus I don't really see another likely landing place (and this contrasts some of my own previous postings). He has driven for McLaren before and I assume there were other reasons for leaving besides the attraction of Ferrari; Williams is still really a struggling team; and Renault comes with Flavio. Red Bull and Brawn are set with their current drivers for 2010, so Kimi is going to drive for Toyota or Force India? Yeah, sure....

ClarkFan

[truefan72]

Plus I don't really see another likely landing place (and this contrasts some of my own previous postings). He has driven for McLaren before and I assume there were other reasons for leaving besides the attraction of Ferrari; ClarkFan

like never ending frustration with an unreliable but fast car. That was kimi's only issue, he wanted to win the WDC and felt at the time that the macs were unreliable. Ferrari wanted him bad and parted with a 7x champ and legend still capable of winning, to get him instead for a sizable contract. Hard to say no to that. I think that they have solved that issue and his return to them would be just fine.

[Saint Devote]

So the two teams that have won 9 races between them--and currently lie 1st and 2nd in the WCC--aren't worthy of Kimi?

They are not.

Mclaren and Ferrari have proven that they can win consistently and they have shown longevity.

If I were a driver and had the choice to join any team I would select Mclaren.

Because it is the only team that can provide a driver with the closest that one can get to a guarantee of winning races.

No other team can do that. Ferrari are not quite on that level.

[Saint Devote]

We are waiting for Monza with no patience!!
Do you think he can make another win in Italy?

Yes, I think that Raikonnen can.

[gloomyDAY]

Kimi is going to kick ass next year, but only if he stays with Ferrari.


No other team can do that. Ferrari are not quite on that level.Someone should let you borrow a history book.

[Saint Devote]

Kimi is going to kick ass next year, but only if he stays with Ferrari.

Someone should let you borrow a history book.

Really? I have been around racing since I was a kid, longer than most history books go back old sport - 35 seasons now.

There was a sea change in racing in 1974 because the new guard at the time: Mclaren won their first world title and Niki Lauda changed the way a driver leads a team - he gathered a totally disorganized Ferrari team stuck in the culture of the 1960's and forced them into modernity and Ferrari won a title the following year.

Without long anecdotes lets tabulate who is the most successful consistently and over the decades as a team:

Since:
1974 Mclaren have won 12 world titles with 7 drivers.
1974 Ferrari have won 9 world titles with 4 drivers - and one of these drivers won 5 of the 9, prior to that Ferrari had not won a titke for TWENTY years.

And it was only mismanagement by Ron Dennis that saw Mclaren lose the 2007 championship but I was pleased that Kimi won it because it was Mclaren letting him down that he did not win in 2005.

So the odds do favor a driver that signs for Mclaren rather than Ferrari and it has been Mclaren errors and FIA favoritism towards Ferrari - as we recently confirmed - that have seen them lose titles.

[leopard]

Massa can get back to the seat, but the long leave might left him some traumatic and need to reset off his mind from another starting point.

McLaren doesn't seem to be better destination, he was by far struggling and made the car less reliable than that of today's performance at Ferrari.

I think as long as Kimi still has enough interest to drive F1, Ferrari should retain the seat for him. He might like rallying, but trying something new would never give great result instantly, he will need to struggle, drivers like Loeb will not give him too much room to speak.

[christophulus]

I've seen rumours of Raikkonen taking a massive paycut to be Button's #2 at Brawn, as well as big moves to Toyota, Renault etc. And that rumour about Massa spending next year at Renault or whoever til Raikkonen's contract is up.

In short.. only he knows. The only safe bet is to wait 'til next weekend and see what Ferrari announce. I'm still not convinced that Alonso is going to be a Ferrari driver next year!

[christophulus]

...although there is an interesting bit here about McLaren's post-race press release. Apparently they were going to great lengths to congratulate Raikkonen on his win!



Many people at McLaren still love Raikkonen; in many ways he's the perfect McLaren driver.

For a team that grounds their engineering in pure mathematics and physics, to have an unemotional, repetitive - almost robotic - driver in the car is much easier than having a man who is inconsistent and variable.

McLaren engineers still talk with wonder about Raikkonen's consistent lap times. He was so good, they say, because he would come back to the pits, say what was wrong, they would fix it and he would go out and go faster. Simple.

Team boss Martin Whitmarsh, who values his engineers' opinions highly, wouldn't rule out employing Raikkonen again when asked on Saturday afternoon.

As a matter of interest, in the McLaren post-race press release, every quote - with the exception of Hamilton's - praises Kimi for his win.

Given that most McLaren people would rather undergo root canal surgery than publicly praise Ferrari, one can't help thinking there's a bit of 'preparing the ground' going on here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/f1mole/2009/09/ted-kravitz-view-from-the-belg.html

[Saint Devote]

Massa can get back to the seat, but the long leave might left him some traumatic and need to reset off his mind from another starting point.

McLaren doesn't seem to be better destination, he was by far struggling and made the car less reliable than that of today's performance at Ferrari.

I think as long as Kimi still has enough interest to drive F1, Ferrari should retain the seat for him. He might like rallying, but trying something new would never give great result instantly, he will need to struggle, drivers like Loeb will not give him too much room to speak.

The unanswered question is whether the accident has affected Massa's driving and nobody will know that until he drives again.

Historically it can go either way. Both Hakkinen and Lauda returned and became world champions - twice.

On the other hand Moss for example discovered his speed had gone.

Time will tell.

[ioan]

They are not.

Mclaren and Ferrari have proven that they can win consistently and they have shown longevity.

If I were a driver and had the choice to join any team I would select Mclaren.

Because it is the only team that can provide a driver with the closest that one can get to a guarantee of winning races.

No other team can do that. Ferrari are not quite on that level.

Another load of rubbish.

[ioan]

Really? I have been around racing since I was a kid, longer than most history books go back old sport - 35 seasons now.


You have a great opinion about yourself, no doubt.
However unless you are God himself, something I ver much doubt given your posts, you should pick a history book before you open your mouth next time. Seriously.

[DexDexter]

Another load of rubbish.

I don't know what the argument here is but Mclaren and Ferrari are currently the teams that usually build a fast car and fight for the championship? Is that rubbisH? :confused:

[ioan]

McLaren did win 2 drivers titles since 1999 (that's 10 years with 20 titles at stake).
Renault won back to bak WDC and WCC drivers in 2005 and 2006.

That makes them a more realistic top performer than the Mclaren.

Also in the same period Ferrari won like 8 WCC and 6 WDC titles, yet our 'knowledgeable' devoted saint thinks they are less likely to give a driver the best chance than McLaren are!

[Saint Devote]

...although there is an interesting bit here about McLaren's post-race press release. Apparently they were going to great lengths to congratulate Raikkonen on his win!



http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/f1mole/2009/09/ted-kravitz-view-from-the-belg.html

Kimi is actually the quintessential modern grand prix driver. He is uninterested in the technical aspect - which is pretty boring anyway beyond engines :-] - but does return to the pits and describe what he wants.

Then with Ronnie Peterson like style he goes out and is quicker if the car can be dialled in.

I think the unfortunate part of today's grand prix cars is that they are more rigid in terms of adaptation compared to say the Lotus 72 of Peterson's day.

The Lotus was not an easy car to drive but the car and tyre regulations of the day allowed a driver to move a car to his style.

Even Raikonnen had problems with set-up - remember the tyres.

But I will be surprised if he returns to Mclaren and if he does I would consider it an indication that he expects Woking to be in better shape for 2010 than than Modena.

[DexDexter]

McLaren did win 2 drivers titles since 1999 (that's 10 years with 20 titles at stake).
Renault won back to bak WDC and WCC drivers in 2005 and 2006.

That makes them a more realistic top performer than the Mclaren.

Also in the same period Ferrari won like 8 WCC and 6 WDC titles, yet our 'knowledgeable' devoted saint thinks they are less likely to give a driver the best chance than McLaren are!



Maybe the number of wins would be a better statistic... Mclaren and Ferrari would PROBABLY lead that.

[Jarno]

McLaren would be the worst option for Kimi, hope that never happens.

[Saint Devote]

McLaren did win 2 drivers titles since 1999 (that's 10 years with 20 titles at stake).
Renault won back to bak WDC and WCC drivers in 2005 and 2006.

That makes them a more realistic top performer than the Mclaren.

Also in the same period Ferrari won like 8 WCC and 6 WDC titles, yet our 'knowledgeable' devoted saint thinks they are less likely to give a driver the best chance than McLaren are!



There was a quote on the wall in the offices of the Home Office in the UK that said "if you torture the statistics enough they will tell you anything".

The way you have engineered your retort is just that - in order to support your artgument. The universe you have used is too small therefore the picture shown is a distorted one.

This is the reason the beginning I have taken was from the period that Mclaren came into its own as a top constructor and at the same time Ferrari team was literally taken by Niki Lauda and reingineered. At the time he spent six weeks testing from light until dark and lived at the circuit only returning him once a week.

And since 1974, the year this all coincided because 1973 was the year that both Lotus and Tyrrell peaked, never to return to their former glories.

So it was the beginning of a new era and since then the numbers I provide are the facts. Your view or my view is not relevant here because we have 35 years of what actually happened.

I refer you to my original post above on this matter because it encompasses the entire period, not your cherry picked short period.

Lastly, this debate referred to the driver's championship only, not the contructor's. Remember the original question was which team did a driver have a greater probability of winning and I have shown my case and stated that that is Mclaren not Ferrari.

I am not beholden to any team as I do not support teams and never have, I have favorite drivers.

[ioan]

There was a quote on the wall in the offices of the Home Office in the UK that said "if you torture the statistics enough they will tell you anything".

It took me some 30 seconds to 'torture' them to the point to prove that your post has no base.

[jimakos]

McLaren would be the worst option for Kimi, hope that never happens.

Total agree!
Kimi has to stay in Ferrari forever.. :)

[DexDexter]

McLaren would be the worst option for Kimi, hope that never happens.

I don't know now that Mosley is set to disappear. We could see Ron back and he has always liked Finnish drivers, I mean he's hired four so far.

[henners88]

It took me some 30 seconds to 'torture' them to the point to prove that your post has no base.
I don't agree with Saint Devotes post but everyone is entitled to an opinion. Shouting rubbish because you don't agree, isn't going to change anyones opinion... :)
Just saying :s mokin:

[SGWilko]

I don't know now that Mosley is set to disappear. We could see Ron back and he has always liked Finnish drivers, I mean he's hired four so far.

I don't think Ron will come back. Martin has proved more than up to the task. I would imagine Ron is enjoying his new project which he can devote all his efforts to in the road car division or whatever it is he heads these days.

[DexDexter]

I don't agree with Saint Devotes post but everyone is entitled to an opinion. Shouting rubbish because you don't agree, isn't going to change anyones opinion... :)
Just saying :s mokin:

You're trying to teach Ioan some manners? Good luck :D

[ioan]

I don't agree with Saint Devotes post but everyone is entitled to an opinion. Shouting rubbish because you don't agree, isn't going to change anyones opinion... :)
Just saying :s mokin:

I proved my point with numbers, so it's more than just me agreeing or not. I rest my case.


PS: I do not post to change anyone's opinion, I learned that it's pretty much useless to expect some people to see the light. I only try to put things right when some utterly distort reality.

[SGWilko]

I proved my point with numbers, so it's more than just me agreeing or not. I rest my case.

But he proved his point with numbers too!

Perhaps, when you look at the numbers from different pespectives they have more than one meaning?

Waddayathink? :)

[ioan]

You're trying to teach Ioan some manners? Good luck :D

You talking about manners? I didn't know that manners spread on the north side of the arctic circle. :\

BTW I' really not interested in Kimi's future, he's just a lazy bum anyway.

[ioan]

But he proved his point with numbers too!

Perhaps, when you look at the numbers from different pespectives they have more than one meaning?

Waddayathink? :)

I thought we are talking about recent capabilities not the mid 80's. Or should I come up with comparisons from teh 70's or 60's or even go all fantasy side and come up with some number Ferrari against McLaren n the 50's? Oh wait there was no McLaren back than. :\

I hope you see that the message is that a driver is looking for what a team achieved in the past few years not 20 years ago.

Anyway, I couldn't care less about Raikkonen's future, though he looks like he might have a nice career waiting for him in rallying.

[DexDexter]

You talking about manners? I didn't know that manners spread on the north side of the arctic circle. :\

BTW I' really not interested in Kimi's future, he's just a lazy bum anyway.

:p

It's too easy to wind you up. I'll stop now.

[Dzeidzei]

You have a great opinion about yourself, no doubt.
However unless you are God himself, something I ver much doubt given your posts, you should pick a history book before you open your mouth next time. Seriously.

Well certainly SD is no god. You are Ioan. And there can be only one :)

[Dzeidzei]

:p

It's too easy to wind you up. I'll stop now.

Dont stop. Go with Ceaucescian manners, that´ll make our day.

On a serious note: Im almost certain, that Ioan is not a person at all. It must be a program designed to automatically sense certain names and phrases (massa, schumacher, tifosi, kimi) and reply to them according to some Transsilvanian logic and preformulated bs.

His posts (and there are a few) form almost an evangelic, biblical folklore. A lot like bible: persistant folklore, but still mainly bs.

[DexDexter]

Dont stop. Go with Ceaucescian manners, that´ll make our day.

On a serious note: Im almost certain, that Ioan is not a person at all. It must be a program designed to automatically sense certain names and phrases (massa, schumacher, tifosi, kimi) and reply to them according to some Transsilvanian logic and preformulated bs.

His posts (and there are a few) form almost an evangelic, biblical folklore. A lot like bible: persistant folklore, but still mainly bs.

Maybe they should make him a moderator. It would be like North Korea. :D

[ioan]

Need to gang up in order to throw these petty insults?! :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Maybe they should make him a moderator. It would be like North Korea. :D

Oh no! Hans Blix.... :laugh:

[Knock-on]

Dont stop. Go with Ceaucescian manners, that´ll make our day.

On a serious note: Im almost certain, that Ioan is not a person at all. It must be a program designed to automatically sense certain names and phrases (massa, schumacher, tifosi, kimi) and reply to them according to some Transsilvanian logic and preformulated bs.

His posts (and there are a few) form almost an evangelic, biblical folklore. A lot like bible: persistant folklore, but still mainly bs.

PML :laugh:

I think he called at my house last Sunday with a copy of Watchtower :D

[Big Ben]

Dont stop. Go with Ceaucescian manners, that´ll make our day.

On a serious note: Im almost certain, that Ioan is not a person at all. It must be a program designed to automatically sense certain names and phrases (massa, schumacher, tifosi, kimi) and reply to them according to some Transsilvanian logic and preformulated bs.

His posts (and there are a few) form almost an evangelic, biblical folklore. A lot like bible: persistant folklore, but still mainly bs.

way to go buddy... teach him some manners... he insults one or a group of members of this forum at times... you just managed to insult 1.5-2 billion people in one sentence.

[SGWilko]

way to go buddy... teach him some manners... he insults one or a group of members of this forum at times... you just managed to insult 1.5-2 billion people in one sentence.

Wow, do we have that many members viewing this thread? ;)

[DexDexter]

way to go buddy... teach him some manners... he insults one or a group of members of this forum at times... you just managed to insult 1.5-2 billion people in one sentence.

I knew there was an Ioan supporter somewhere! :D

[henners88]

PS: I do not post to change anyone's opinion, I learned that it's pretty much useless to expect some people to see the light. I only try to put things right when some utterly distort reality.
That statement does send out the impression that you think you are always right. Some people on here do distort reality in the heat of debate and you my friend are also guilty of this from time to time... You also admitted the other day to saying things simply to wind people up, and I can even hold my hands up to that one... ;)

[ioan]

That statement does send out the impression that you think you are always right. Some people on here do distort reality in the heat of debate and you my friend are also guilty of this from time to time... You also admitted the other day to saying things simply to wind people up, and I can even hold my hands up to that one... ;)

Let's just all agree and live happily ever after. Imagine how nice of discussion that would be:

Me: Button took out Grosjean!
You: You're right!
Knockie: Yeah, Jenson made a mistake!

So, do we agree?

[henners88]

Let's just all agree and live happily ever after. Imagine how nice of discussion that would be:

Me: Button took out Grosjean!
You: You're right!
Knockie: Yeah, Jenson made a mistake!

So, do we agree?
Sounds good to me ioan and yes I agree fully with you... :)

Its not the disagreeing I have a problem with, its the arrogance in which it is delivered.

[Dzeidzei]

way to go buddy... teach him some manners... he insults one or a group of members of this forum at times... you just managed to insult 1.5-2 billion people in one sentence.

Has to be a world record then. What do I win? Bytheway I think the number is a lot bigger... maybe 3-4 billion. And who cares... if Im wrong Im fukced, if Im right those 4 billion are just ignorant fools.

Why would anyone care really.

[Big Ben]

Has to be a world record then. What do I win? Bytheway I think the number is a lot bigger... maybe 3-4 billion. And who cares... if Im wrong Im fukced, if Im right those 4 billion are just ignorant fools.

Why would anyone care really.

By pure logic the ignorant would be you since you bet everything on something that gives you no hope. Those fools might not be right and that´s all they lose while that´s the best you could ever hope for :laugh: .



I knew there was an Ioan supporter somewhere! :D

So you see Dex, I'm not Ioan's supporter (not even close) but I think it´s silly to judge someone´s manners and make statements like that... especially on a motorsport forum...

[Dzeidzei]

By pure logic the ignorant would be you since you bet everything on something that gives you no hope. Those fools might not be right and that´s all they lose while that´s the best you could ever hope for :laugh: .

And to add to my ignorance: I would never understand how that would give me no hope. I´d prefer to make most of it while Im here and not wait for something illogical and untrue.

But people have every right to believe what they want. On my part it was a bad choice of analogy to company Ioan and religious people. Sorry :)

But this doesnt belong here. This does: Kimi will absolutely race in F1 next year. He still wants to win and is looking for an option that could give him that chance.

The idea of Ferrari getting rid of him is so full of stupidity that it needs no words. But they did choose Badoer, so nothing would surprise me anymore.

[Koz]

Would Kimi play unconditional second fiddle to Hamilton is the question. He won't go that way.

This rumor has always been pretty pathetic if you ask me. It has been going on since Kimi's day one at Ferrari. It was even on here the day before he won the WDC, the day he won it, and the day after.

Alonso is very risky, Kimi and Massa seem to be good together. Will Alonso be a good team player?
Would Ferrari risk losing a world champion and a would-be-champion who play well together after the whole saga at McLaren?
Massa has very good connections at Ferarri, almost like Hamilton and McLaren with Ron. Surely Nicolas Todt would see it a bad idea...

[keysersoze]

Kimi is actually the quintessential modern grand prix driver. He is uninterested in the technical aspect

The quintessential modern grand prix driver is obsessed with every aspect of the sport: mental acuity, physical training, technical aspects of the chassis as well as the engine, interpersonal communication skills, team building, and perhaps a host of things I haven't even imagined.

Many grand prix drivers from a bygone era either got extremely lucky with an abundance of natural talent, got by through being outstanding in a particular aspect, or else failed because they were unable (or ignorant) of how to make the best of their abilities.

As you mentioned in another thread, Lauda perhaps pioneered this approach, (taking notes from Clark and Stewart). Prost IMO outdid Niki at his own game, and Schumacher is the most recent epitome of this approach.

I see Kimi more as a throwback to the classic 70s driver, like Hunt, Reggazoni, Depailler, Villenueve, K. Rosberg, and perhaps Gilles and Ronnie.

[DexDexter]

Would Kimi play unconditional second fiddle to Hamilton is the question. He won't go that way.

This rumor has always been pretty pathetic if you ask me. It has been going on since Kimi's day one at Ferrari. It was even on here the day before he won the WDC, the day he won it, and the day after.

Alonso is very risky, Kimi and Massa seem to be good together. Will Alonso be a good team player?
Would Ferrari risk losing a world champion and a would-be-champion who play well together after the whole saga at McLaren?
Massa has very good connections at Ferarri, almost like Hamilton and McLaren with Ron. Surely Nicolas Todt would see it a bad idea...

If Kimi went to Mclaren, he would get better treatment than Heikki does, that's for sure. At least the guys there understand that bs talk and waving hands about is not a reflection of someone's motivation.

[jimakos]

If Kimi went to Mclaren, he would get better treatment than Heikki does, that's for sure. At least the guys there understand that bs talk and waving hands about is not a reflection of someone's motivation.

Can't say that's false!
Heikki hasn't the best help and treatment from his team!!

[ioan]

So you see Dex, I'm not Ioan's supporter (not even close) but I think it´s silly to judge someone´s manners and make statements like that... especially on a motorsport forum...

You're losing your time with these people.

[Koz]

If Kimi went to Mclaren, he would get better treatment than Heikki does, that's for sure. At least the guys there understand that bs talk and waving hands about is not a reflection of someone's motivation.

Better then Heikki, sure. But on par with Hamilton?

Kimi was at McLaren at a long time, and I do however think that the team would prefer him to the wonderboy too, higher management however is up for debate.

I also remember Alonso saying in 2007 or 2008 that he had spoken to Kimi about McLaren hinted that Kimi wasn't happy there.
How were the politics at McLaren when Kimi left?


And who is to say that Ferrari think he isn't motivated? For all we know all this talk is rumor bull, and has nothing to do with the what's happening in Ferrari. After all do we have an insider to leak us some info about it? :p

And I will still say it regardless of whoever said anything. Kimi is the best driver out there, maybe Alonso is better - but that too is debatable.

The guys leading the championship pack right now aren't in the same league. And everyone knows it. KR is hot property, and if Ferrari don't want him, there are plenty that do. The only way this man will leave F1 is from his free will.

[DexDexter]

You're losing your time with these people.

Prove it. Link, please. Otherwise stop that nonsense. :D

[Saint Devote]

The quintessential modern grand prix driver is obsessed with every aspect of the sport: mental acuity, physical training, technical aspects of the chassis as well as the engine, interpersonal communication skills, team building, and perhaps a host of things I haven't even imagined.

Many grand prix drivers from a bygone era either got extremely lucky with an abundance of natural talent, got by through being outstanding in a particular aspect, or else failed because they were unable (or ignorant) of how to make the best of their abilities.

As you mentioned in another thread, Lauda perhaps pioneered this approach, (taking notes from Clark and Stewart). Prost IMO outdid Niki at his own game, and Schumacher is the most recent epitome of this approach.

I see Kimi more as a throwback to the classic 70s driver, like Hunt, Reggazoni, Depailler, Villenueve, K. Rosberg, and perhaps Gilles and Ronnie.

He reminds me of a mix of Ronnie Peterson and James Hunt - no coincidence then that he used the name "James Hunt" to particiapte in an extremural racing event.

He is not particularly interested in the technical side - he tells the engineers what he wants and then drives, letting the engineers do the technical part. This from Domenicali in an interview a year ago. And the Ferrari engineers like that.

Raikonnen is not obsessed with physical fitness in that long periods of excercise are not his thing. But he does excercise fir short periods everyday.

He has no particular interest in the team outside his personal need and even former teammates remark that outside the neccessary they did not really talk much at all.

Also, he has no interest at all in PR or "motivate"the team - he is there to drive and nothing else.

Give him a car he can win with and he will perform in a most remarkably sublime way. And this is what Ferrari stated when they resigned him until 2010. Luca di Montezemolo understands that nature of Kimi as a driver that is why they are unlikely to give him up for anyone in my view.

I do volunteer that a reason Ferrari keeps on about a third car is perhaps if the have signed Alonso, they do want to look bad publicly because they would have to fire Massa.

Maybe at Monza a lot will be revealed because it has always been the traditional end of the silly season and this year's has been one of the best ever!

[Saint Devote]

And I will still say it regardless of whoever said anything. Kimi is the best driver out there, maybe Alonso is better - but that too is debatable.

The guys leading the championship pack right now aren't in the same league. And everyone knows it. KR is hot property, and if Ferrari don't want him, there are plenty that do. The only way this man will leave F1 is from his free will.

How do you judge Raikonnen is the "best driver out there" or that "the guys leading ....etc"?

How do you rate Alonso versus Raikonnen that way - it was Alonso that trounced Schumacher in 2006 yet it was at Interlagos in 2007 that Schumacher made that brilliant pass on Kimi into the first corner and the Finn had no answer.

And just what must Button do to rate even near an equal? Jenson's season to date remarkably mirrors Schumacher's of 2003 [and with the same teammate] and why should the Brit be underrated? He is definitely rated highly by Schumacher, Briatore and Brawn - and I think the know a thing or two. And further, the head of Bridgestone racing a few months back said that Button is the easiest driver on their tyres and he was just amazed at how Button drove so well.

There is a host of drivers at the top today - not since the 1980's into early 1990's has it been so - that are extremely good and can win the championship including Button.

[keysersoze]

He reminds me of a mix of Ronnie Peterson and James Hunt - no coincidence then that he used the name "James Hunt" to particiapte in an extremural racing event.

He is not particularly interested in the technical side - he tells the engineers what he wants and then drives, letting the engineers do the technical part. This from Domenicali in an interview a year ago. And the Ferrari engineers like that.

Raikonnen is not obsessed with physical fitness in that long periods of excercise are not his thing. But he does excercise fir short periods everyday.

He has no particular interest in the team outside his personal need and even former teammates remark that outside the neccessary they did not really talk much at all.

Also, he has no interest at all in PR or "motivate"the team - he is there to drive and nothing else.

Give him a car he can win with and he will perform in a most remarkably sublime way. And this is what Ferrari stated when they resigned him until 2010. Luca di Montezemolo understands that nature of Kimi as a driver that is why they are unlikely to give him up for anyone in my view.

I do volunteer that a reason Ferrari keeps on about a third car is perhaps if the have signed Alonso, they do want to look bad publicly because they would have to fire Massa.

Maybe at Monza a lot will be revealed because it has always been the traditional end of the silly season and this year's has been one of the best ever!

I agree with all you say about Kimi.

But I think I need to clarify my previous post. When you say Kimi Raikonnen is the "quintessential" modern grand prix driver, I'm saying he may be a pure driver--uncomplicated--but there are few, if any, like him today. "Quintessential modern grand prix driver" may be a contradiction in terms.

The modern grand prix driver is multi-faceted, unlike KR.

[DexDexter]

Better then Heikki, sure. But on par with Hamilton?

Kimi was at McLaren at a long time, and I do however think that the team would prefer him to the wonderboy too, higher management however is up for debate.

I also remember Alonso saying in 2007 or 2008 that he had spoken to Kimi about McLaren hinted that Kimi wasn't happy there.
How were the politics at McLaren when Kimi left?


And who is to say that Ferrari think he isn't motivated? For all we know all this talk is rumor bull, and has nothing to do with the what's happening in Ferrari. After all do we have an insider to leak us some info about it? :p

And I will still say it regardless of whoever said anything. Kimi is the best driver out there, maybe Alonso is better - but that too is debatable.

The guys leading the championship pack right now aren't in the same league. And everyone knows it. KR is hot property, and if Ferrari don't want him, there are plenty that do. The only way this man will leave F1 is from his free will.

Kimi left Mclaren because the car wasn't always quick and had reliability problems which arguably cost him the WDC in 2005. Back in 2001 they hired him instead of Mercedes favourite Heidfeld and gave him his big chance, so I don't think there are problems on Kimi's side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2005

[DexDexter]

Is it my imagination or have a large amount of posts been removed from this thread? I actually had quite a sensible conversation with ioan and its been removed... :confused:

I think the posts that are not related to the topic of the thread disappeared and rightly so. Anyway, I find it very strange that some people cannot discuss things without trying to insult people who disagree with them.

[jimakos]

I think the posts that are not related to the topic of the thread disappeared and rightly so. Anyway, I find it very strange that some people cannot discuss things without trying to insult people who disagree with them.

I will agree with you!
We are just talking about F1!
Let's all of us stop insult others!
About the posts I have no idea what happened...

[jens]

I personally find those rumours, which are linking Kimi to Brawn, interesting. Button vs Räikkönen - hmm, could create a few interesting discussions on the forum since both drivers are quite highly rated. ;)

[leopard]

Unluckily, Ruben constantly outperforms Jenson post mid season break, there is not enough reason for Ruben get pensioned off.

[Saint Devote]

If the Ferrari team are trying to get Kimi to leave then it really just illustrates how reactionary the team is. They would want to hire Alonso - a sound move - yet retain Massa?

Their ability to pick a replacement for Mass since his accident is a typical Ferrari melodrama that I had thought been erradicated - there was a time when Ferrari pitstops were the embodiment of Peter Ustinov's "Grand Prix"!

And who can forget the shambles during the days of Ivan Capelli - he first met his race engineer on the plane to Kyalami!

Neither Schumacher, Badoer, Gene [he should resign and give the "universal salute" to the Scuderia] or Fischella is a move that looks forward to the future.

Gary Anderson made a sound suggestion just prior to the Valencia weekend. But Ferrari are not Red Bull so staid and conservative it is.......

He rightly pointed out that Hulkenberg is the best up and coming driver, and is set to win the GP2 championship in his first year - beating a rather erratic Grosjean before his move to f1.

Why not invite Hulkenberg to drive for the rest of the year, it would give him f1 experience alongside one the best drivers in the world - and Alguersari showed it can be done, make a deal with Williams to supply Ferrari engines for no or low nominal cost for three years and then lend him out to Williams for a year while he learns from a great team.

Great suggestion - no chance.

I agree with the thought that Kimi seeing how they still bow to Schumacher, love Massa and pine for Alonso, should just drive for Kimi and stick it to everyone as he did at Spa.

Then he should leave and join Mclaren - getting the millions from Ferrari that they will be forced to pay him as well. They would take him before any other on the grid and it is a very different team that Whitmarsh is creating.

If it turns out that Ferrari are trying to engineer a Raikonnen exit then the team's ethics are no better than their founders' where it came to being devious and cowardly towards their drivers.

[Saint Devote]

Unluckily, Ruben constantly outperforms Jenson post mid season break, there is not enough reason for Ruben get pensioned off.

That is also not the way it often works out. Other factors play significant roles too.

[ioan]

If it turns out that Ferrari are trying to engineer a Raikonnen exit then the team's ethics are no better than their founders' where it came to being devious and cowardly towards their drivers.

I bet you did better than Enzo in your life so you can criticize his work and achievement, NOT! :rolleyes:

[ShiftingGears]

I bet you did better than Enzo in your life so you can criticize his work and achievement, NOT! :rolleyes:

Stupid logic.

[Saint Devote]

How long does it take Raikonnen to get over a bad result?

From the Kimi interview: a second, then its over.

Hence the relaxed ice cream [vanilla?] and coke result when he did not make it out of Q3 this year :-]

[Saint Devote]

I think Raikonnen would fit in well at Mclaren - better than before.

The change that has been noticed by f1 journalists and even the interviews given by Whitmarsh in his approach and the "official" forgiveness by Bernie a few races ago when he publicly joined Lewis at a press gathering at the Mclaren motor home declares that it is a clean slate.

And Hamilton has demonstrated his ability to take care of Alonso and Raikonnen knows the Massa weakness.

Mclaren might even find their next "dream team": Prost-Lauda now Hamilton-Raikonnen.

It is fun to speculate. One thing we can all rely on is that it would probably be the calmest team of drivers and the quietest in the whole paddock!!

[jas123f1]

I think Raikonnen would fit in well at Mclaren - better than before.

The change that has been noticed by f1 journalists and even the interviews given by Whitmarsh in his approach and the "official" forgiveness by Bernie a few races ago when he publicly joined Lewis at a press gathering at the Mclaren motor home declares that it is a clean slate.

And Hamilton has demonstrated his ability to take care of Alonso and Raikonnen knows the Massa weakness.

Mclaren might even find their next "dream team": Prost-Lauda now Hamilton-Raikonnen.

It is fun to speculate. One thing we can all rely on is that it would probably be the calmest team of drivers and the quietest in the whole paddock!!

Kimi has his contract and want to keep it even 2010 as expected.

But - if Ferrari “unilateral” breaks it and Kimi must leave Ferrari (against his wish) then I would like to see him back in a McLaren again.

I think that Schumacher has still much to say in the Ferrari team and since he like's Felipe a lot, (who helped him when he was active and who he called him his little brother - and nothing wrong with that). Felipe has been at Ferrari a long time now and works very well together the people there and the fact is that Ferrari would like to see Massa as WDC rather than Kimi and are naturally working in that direction (with Schumi helping) which not always be in fully accordance what Kimi want - of course.

That's normally and happen in every team and the team must of course make their choice - but however it's a little disadvantage for Kimi. We can see that after Massa's regrettable accident now when Kimi has the first driver position are his results been very good - and inasmuch as we even know that Ferrari doesn't develop the 2009 year's car any more, we can only think that team and Kimi work today better together than before.

So I think the first choice for Kimi still is Ferrari and then McLaren. I’m quite sure McLaren are interested to get him back.. the question is more what Kimi like’s ..

[ioan]

Stupid logic.

Why's that?

You believe that a no one like our devoted 'saint' has the moral grounds to talk like that about Enzo Ferrari?!

[ioan]

Apropos of Kimi, I find it interesting that since Felipe has been sidelined by that accident Kimi is having a better time.
Either the car suddenly became better, which I doubt, as they stopped development work after the Hungarian GP, or he was being psychologically dominated by Massa at Ferrari, which means he's cool attitude is just a smoke screen.

[DexDexter]

Apropos of Kimi, I find it interesting that since Felipe has been sidelined by that accident Kimi is having a better time.
Either the car suddenly became better, which I doubt, as they stopped development work after the Hungarian GP, or he was being psychologically dominated by Massa at Ferrari, which means he's cool attitude is just a smoke screen.

Or maybe the team is concentrating on him now? To be honest, I don't think anything has changed except the circuits have suited Ferrari and Spa has always been Kimi's circuit. Kimi seems to have a better time since his teammate isn't matching him. He is no better or worse than before.

[ShiftingGears]

Why's that?

You believe that a no one like our devoted 'saint' has the moral grounds to talk like that about Enzo Ferrari?!

Well, since you never achieved the position of F1 team boss, you therefore can't critisise Ron Dennis or Martin Whitmarsh.


Stupid concept, isn't it?

[ShiftingGears]

Or maybe the team is concentrating on him now?

I think so as well.

[ioan]

Or maybe the team is concentrating on him now? To be honest, I don't think anything has changed except the circuits have suited Ferrari and Spa has always been Kimi's circuit. Kimi seems to have a better time since his teammate isn't matching him. He is no better or worse than before.

But the team was giving equal chances to both as far as I know. Does Kimi need no. 1 status in order to be able to deliver?

[ioan]

Well, since you never achieved the position of F1 team boss, you therefore can't critisise Ron Dennis or Martin Whitmarsh.

Stupid concept, isn't it?

Criticize them for what for a race strategy mistake? For Spygate?! Or for their lifetime achievements?

I never said I can criticize Ron Dennis (for example) as far as his achievements as a team grounder (developer) go, and that's exactly what our sanctified friend thinks he can do about the founder of the most coveted car manufacturer and F1 team.

[DexDexter]

But the team was giving equal chances to both as far as I know. Does Kimi need no. 1 status in order to be able to deliver?

Good question. I don't know.

[ShiftingGears]

Criticize them for what for a race strategy mistake? For Spygate?! Or for their lifetime achievements?

I never said I can criticize Ron Dennis (for example) as far as his achievements as a team grounder (developer) go, and that's exactly what our sanctified friend thinks he can do about the founder of the most coveted car manufacturer and F1 team.

You can respect someones achievements while still critisising their faults. Ferrari was no saint.

[ShiftingGears]

But the team was giving equal chances to both as far as I know. Does Kimi need no. 1 status in order to be able to deliver?

I think he needs to get more involved in the decision making process. Schumacher eluded to this earlier this year.
Massa and Raikkonen have very different driving styles, and perhaps Kimi is not forceful enough when it comes to making team decisions go his way.

[jens]

I am not sure about this No.1 driver stuff that gets repeated constantly. Both drivers have their own race team and the "team" of Badoer/Fisichella is also led by Smedley like it was the case with Massa.

[ioan]

At last someone on my wave length. I wish everyone thought like you ... :)

Don't wish for things you don't know very well. ;)

[ioan]

Good question. I don't know.

I don't know it either and I'm a bit surprised that Kimi is needing some ego massaging as it doesn't mesh with the image he's trying to project about himself.

[Saint Devote]

I don't know it either and I'm a bit surprised that Kimi is needing some ego massaging as it doesn't mesh with the image he's trying to project about himself.

In an interview of over twenty people that know Raikonnen, amongst them Peter Sauber and one of his closest friends Tom Vilander, your comment is totally erroneous or worse.

The press make things up about the Finn when he says nothing or little - which is usual and he knows that.

Secondly, anyone following Raikonnen since the days that Sauber fought for his Superlicense will know that Kimi is not projecting an "image" - he is who he is and there is no agenda or dishonest pretentous image management that is so prevalent in the world today.

[DexDexter]

I don't know it either and I'm a bit surprised that Kimi is needing some ego massaging as it doesn't mesh with the image he's trying to project about himself.

I don't think he is projecting anything, he just is that way, but nobody is immune to pressure, nobody.

[Saint Devote]

I think he needs to get more involved in the decision making process. Schumacher eluded to this earlier this year.
Massa and Raikkonen have very different driving styles, and perhaps Kimi is not forceful enough when it comes to making team decisions go his way.

A Ronnie Peterson moment!

Kimi may be thought by some that he should be more involved but he does not want to be and it would complicate things. He is not the sort of driver that huddles with the team and spends hours on a technical issue and we all know that.

But Domenicali has said that they work with Kimi that way - he tells them what he wants and when it is doen he goes out and drives the car and if it is good, excellent if not they try again.

The thng is that Kimi delivers and does not give up. The win in Spa was the result of Raikonnen not Ferrari.

He reminds me of SuperSwede- as close as someone can be today I suppose.

During his Lotus days when Andretti was there the mechanics used to unofficially intervene on the side of Ronnie. He would be quicker than Andretti in practice and Chapman would then tell them to put more fuel into Petersons car to slow him down so that Andretti would be on pole for the grand prix.

Chapman would find out if they did not - which they tried - and there would trouble to say the least and the fuel would go in.

Another great story is when they asked Ronnie what sort of set-up he wanted he would say to just put whetever Andretti had on the car and would drive it. So utterly sublime.

Those were great irreverent years in f1. Drivers could really shine. Great stories from people such as former chief Lotus mechanic Bob Dance.

[ioan]

In an interview of over twenty people that know Raikonnen, amongst them Peter Sauber and one of his closest friends Tom Vilander, your comment is totally erroneous or worse.

The press make things up about the Finn when he says nothing or little - which is usual and he knows that.

Secondly, anyone following Raikonnen since the days that Sauber fought for his Superlicense will know that Kimi is not projecting an "image" - he is who he is and there is no agenda or dishonest pretentous image management that is so prevalent in the world today.

Whatever! :cool:

[DexDexter]

Whatever! :cool:

Come on, let the guy state his opinion, let him be, please.

[Saint Devote]

Kimi has his contract and want to keep it even 2010 as expected.

But - if Ferrari “unilateral” breaks it and Kimi must leave Ferrari (against his wish) then I would like to see him back in a McLaren again.

I think that Schumacher has still much to say in the Ferrari team and since he like's Felipe a lot, (who helped him when he was active and who he called him his little brother - and nothing wrong with that). Felipe has been at Ferrari a long time now and works very well together the people there and the fact is that Ferrari would like to see Massa as WDC rather than Kimi and are naturally working in that direction (with Schumi helping) which not always be in fully accordance what Kimi want - of course.

That's normally and happen in every team and the team must of course make their choice - but however it's a little disadvantage for Kimi. We can see that after Massa's regrettable accident now when Kimi has the first driver position are his results been very good - and inasmuch as we even know that Ferrari doesn't develop the 2009 year's car any more, we can only think that team and Kimi work today better together than before.

So I think the first choice for Kimi still is Ferrari and then McLaren. I’m quite sure McLaren are interested to get him back.. the question is more what Kimi like’s ..

Your point makes me wonder whether Ferrari are Schumacher dependent? Is the team unsure of itself and does allo too much input from the German.

Their first inclination was to "run back to daddy" when Massa was injured and when that was impossible they panicked and put Badoer in the car.

Now Badoer is ridiculously blaming "the media" for his unseating. How delusional can one be?

I still insist that it was Raikonnen that won and it flattered the car. The FI is a better chassis [shock!] but the Ferrari was quicker in the KERS-advantage sectors but it was the FI that qualified on pole.

In Valencia Raikonnen and Barrichello were the two quickest drivers at pit in and out.

Given the close race run and that both Kimi and Fisi ran the same strategy and at the last pitstop Kimi just got out ahead while as I recall their stop times were the same, Raikonnen won because he did what Schumacher was a good at doing - being quick into and out of the pits.

So it was not that Ferrari worked any harder for him, just that Kimi set himself up for the win on that first lap out of La Source and his ability to be quicker in strategic areas such as the pit in-out, won him the grand prix.

This ability and abolute self-confidence is what makes him the better driver for Ferrari to retain. Massa does not have that albeit that he is an excellent driver.

Problem is that if Alonso joins in 2010, it will have been via such as serenade and the Spaniard is such a cry baby as we discovered at Mclaren, it could become untenable for Kimi to stay at Ferrari and in his interests to move back to Mclaren alongside Hamilton.

Hamilton is one thing and that is he is like Raikonnen - the identity of his teammate does not faze him - he gets on with the job.

[ioan]

Come on, let the guy state his opinion, let him be, please.

Did I stop him or what?! :confused:

[jas123f1]

But the team was giving equal chances to both as far as I know. Does Kimi need no. 1 status in order to be able to deliver?

No- the team as not giving equal chances to both - Massa helped Kimi 2007 and Kimi did the same to Massa 2008.. Every team make their plans and you can see (if you want) that Massa has been the first driver 2009.. and i agreed with the team - Massa deserves a WDC-title after al his years at Ferrari and al the development he has made with his driving..

And we should don’t forget that Massa helped Schumi … and then Kimi … so it’s fair to give him a chance to the title now - it's his turn and I'm sure every one knows that at Ferrari.

Don’t let your antipathy against Kimi make you blind.

[ClarkFan]

There was a quote on the wall in the offices of the Home Office in the UK that said "if you torture the statistics enough they will tell you anything".

The way you have engineered your retort is just that - in order to support your artgument. The universe you have used is too small therefore the picture shown is a distorted one.

This is the reason the beginning I have taken was from the period that Mclaren came into its own as a top constructor and at the same time Ferrari team was literally taken by Niki Lauda and reingineered. At the time he spent six weeks testing from light until dark and lived at the circuit only returning him once a week.

And since 1974, the year this all coincided because 1973 was the year that both Lotus and Tyrrell peaked, never to return to their former glories.

So it was the beginning of a new era and since then the numbers I provide are the facts. Your view or my view is not relevant here because we have 35 years of what actually happened.

I refer you to my original post above on this matter because it encompasses the entire period, not your cherry picked short period.

Lastly, this debate referred to the driver's championship only, not the contructor's. Remember the original question was which team did a driver have a greater probability of winning and I have shown my case and stated that that is Mclaren not Ferrari.

I am not beholden to any team as I do not support teams and never have, I have favorite drivers.
OK, but I think that the Constructor's title is a better indication of a car's capability of winning. If a team wins the WCC without the WDC, you have clear evidence that the car would have won the WDC if one of the drivers had been capable (or fit for the entire year). Over your measuring period, McLaren won the WCC 8 times (1974, 1984, 1985, 1988-91, 1998), and Ferrari won 14 times (1975-77, 1979, 1981-2, 1999-2004, 2007-8). Now, based on points McLaren would have won 2007, but based on the team data issue, perhaps all the points scored by all 4 drivers should have been scored for Ferrari!

Yes, Ferrari benefitted mightly from Schumacher, but without Prost and Senna, McLaren's result would be pretty thin gruel, too. Even throwing out 2007, a 13-8 edge for Ferrari says that if you really want to win, drive a red car.

ClarkFan

[truefan72]

- Massa deserves a WDC-title after al his years at Ferrari and al the development he has made with his driving..

And we should don’t forget that Massa helped Schumi … and then Kimi … so it’s fair to give him a chance to the title now - it's his turn and I'm sure every one knows that at Ferrari.

Don’t let your antipathy against Kimi make you blind.

nobody deserves a title, it is earned.

[Dzeidzei]

I still insist that it was Raikonnen that won and it flattered the car. The FI is a better chassis [shock!] but the Ferrari was quicker in the KERS-advantage sectors but it was the FI that qualified on pole.

In Valencia Raikonnen and Barrichello were the two quickest drivers at pit in and out.



Hey SD. I agree with a lot of what you say, but please could you spell it Raikkonen? Or Kimi, thats easier.

Doesnt matter otherwise except makes you look stupid. Even if you were not.

[Dzeidzei]

nobody deserves a title, it is earned.

And whoever wins the title is the best driver that year. Period.

[DexDexter]

Hey SD. I agree with a lot of what you say, but please could you spell it Raikkonen? Or Kimi, thats easier.

Doesnt matter otherwise except makes you look stupid. Even if you were not.

:up:

[ioan]

No- the team as not giving equal chances to both - Massa helped Kimi 2007 and Kimi did the same to Massa 2008.

Looks pretty much equal to me. Don't know what looks inequitable to you. :confused:

[ioan]

Hey SD. I agree with a lot of what you say, but please could you spell it Raikkonen? Or Kimi, thats easier.

Doesnt matter otherwise except makes you look stupid. Even if you were not.

What a lovely family photo. Heartbreaking! :rotflmao:

[Knock-on]

We should all start writing full names rather than initials too, then we don't look lazy even if we are not.. :p

Speak for yourself. Personally, I'm just Lazy :D

What will Kimi do? Who knows. Kimi could do anything.

[DexDexter]

What a lovely family photo. Heartbreaking! :rotflmao:

Talking about family, Kimi's grandmother passed away last week. :(

[ioan]

Talking about family, Kimi's grandmother passed away last week. :(

Sorry to hear that. :(
My sincere condolences to the family.

[Dzeidzei]

Sorry to hear that. :(
My sincere condolences to the family.

You? Sincere? Can you proove that?

[ioan]

You? Sincere? Can you proove that?

You could at least show some manners when we talk about dead people. :\

[Dzeidzei]

You could at least show some manners when we talk about dead people. :\

Well, you could show some manners. Sometime. Anytime. Of course everyone is sorry when something like that happens, dont be a moron.

[ioan]

Well, you could show some manners. Sometime. Anytime. Of course everyone is sorry when something like that happens, dont be a moron.

Post reported.

[Dzeidzei]

Post reported.

Congrats. Good for you. But thats in your blood. East Europeans are taught to report on suspicious behaviour. Keep on reporting!

[DexDexter]

Post reported.

What does that help? People report you all the time and you never really get banned.

[ioan]

What does that help? People report you all the time and you never really get banned.

It spares me time from answering some of your posts.
I don't get banned? Good joke.
I don't get banned when you want it? That's maybe because unlike you I don not go around posting xenophobic insults.

[DexDexter]

It spares me time from answering some of your posts.
I don't get banned? Good joke.
I don't get banned when you want it? That's maybe because unlike you I don not go around posting xenophobic insults.

I don't insult people, I guarantee that no other poster on this or any other forum I write thinks so. The only times I've written things that are not so nice is when you answer to a perfectly normal post with an insult.

[pino]

Guys if you force me to close another thread, someone will go on holiday for a very long time...

[Dzeidzei]

Guys if you force me to close another thread, someone will go on holiday for a very long time...

Hey Pino, I think thats what you must do. Ban for life. If you think that "yours truly" is the main reason, then I´ll accept it. As long as it brings peace on the forum.

Its futile anyway. Every thread turns into the same. Its preventing all discussion. Its killing the forum.

[Big Ben]

Hey Pino, I think thats what you must do. Ban for life. If you think that "yours truly" is the main reason, then I´ll accept it. As long as it brings peace on the forum.

Its futile anyway. Every thread turns into the same. Its preventing all discussion. Its killing the forum.

Though I´ve been called dumb (because ... you see... i´m christian) and a beggar (since i´m romanian) I think they shouldn´t ban you. Maybe you´ll get rid of that anger of yours eventually.

[pino]

Hey Pino, I think thats what you must do. Ban for life. If you think that "yours truly" is the main reason, then I´ll accept it. As long as it brings peace on the forum.

Its futile anyway. Every thread turns into the same. Its preventing all discussion. Its killing the forum.

A ban for life is what I will do from now on, as I am really tired of dealing with mature people who act like kids. I will not take this any longer, you all have been warned !

[pino]

Back to Kimi now and don't let me repeat that again !

[DexDexter]

Back to Kimi now and don't let me repeat that again !

:up:

[ClarkFan]

We should all start writing full names rather than initials too, then we don't look lazy even if we are not.. :p
But I am lazy, so may I just stick with initials?

;)

ClarkFan

[Saint Devote]

OK, but I think that the Constructor's title is a better indication of a car's capability of winning. If a team wins the WCC without the WDC, you have clear evidence that the car would have won the WDC if one of the drivers had been capable (or fit for the entire year). Over your measuring period, McLaren won the WCC 8 times (1974, 1984, 1985, 1988-91, 1998), and Ferrari won 14 times (1975-77, 1979, 1981-2, 1999-2004, 2007-8). Now, based on points McLaren would have won 2007, but based on the team data issue, perhaps all the points scored by all 4 drivers should have been scored for Ferrari!

Yes, Ferrari benefitted mightly from Schumacher, but without Prost and Senna, McLaren's result would be pretty thin gruel, too. Even throwing out 2007, a 13-8 edge for Ferrari says that if you really want to win, drive a red car.

ClarkFan

Ahh but you also "eliminate" items to arrive at your edge :-]

The way I describe it I include everything as well as the ability of each team to select the best drivers possible. These are teams that can usually pick and choose whom they want.

What good does it do me as a driver if a team wins the constructors through scoring well with two drivers, if I can be with a team that may not even have the best car but a close one and a teammate that is a good foil for me?

You see my focus was on which team is likely to win a driver the drivers championship - and I find that Mclaren is the better sure thing than Ferrari due to historical evidence as I have laid out.

[Saint Devote]

Hey SD. I agree with a lot of what you say, but please could you spell it Raikkonen? Or Kimi, thats easier.

Doesnt matter otherwise except makes you look stupid. Even if you were not.

I fond the spelling of the Finnish names difficult to remember - the doule letters go where?!!! - but I will correct that. Just for you! :dozey:

[Saint Devote]

And whoever wins the title is the best driver that year. Period.

Not so fast.....

The driver that wins the championship is the one that played the game the best because not all capable drivers have cared about winning the title and not all the best drivers in that year have ended up by winning the title.

This is why I do not use the title win to assess the best drivers in a season or an era.

The most often used example is Stirling Moss. His percentages were amongst the best, yet he never won a championship and there are those that would decry that and ignore him.

But there was one man who opinion overrides all and he considered Moss to be his greatest rival. His name was Juan Manuel Fangio.

A more recent driver that openly did not care for the championship title and never raced that way, but raced always to be the quickest qualifier and the grand prix winner and drove him into the hearts of so many, Gilles Villeneuve.

And which fan following the career of Superswede, his so effortless sublime way of driving a racing car taking the Lotus 72 to 9 pole positions in 1973 and he finished second in the tragic season of 1978 when he died from injuries sustained at Monza, could say that he is less than his teammate merely because he did not and never would win a title?

Remember there are team preferences always and it may well be the team that engineers the preferred driver to the championship win - not the best driver.

There are times also when a driver wins the title - as Kimi did in 2007 - when it was essentially because civil war had broken out at Mclaren but he did win it bit also deserved it in other ways because he had been let down frequently by the Mclaren-Mercedes he was driving.

Justice :-]

[jas123f1]

A ban for life is what I will do from now on, as I am really tired of dealing with mature people who act like kids. I will not take this any longer, you all have been warned !

Thanks :) – not only you are tired – I agree fully that it’s time stop people who has difficult make a distinction between people and the matter in discussion..

[pino]

Back to Kimi please...

[SGWilko]

Back to Kimi please...

Pino, you make reference to banning people willy nilly, but when someone comments on this, without so much as the basic courtesy to give an answer or explanation, you delete the post???

You feel ok about that do you?

I think you are bahaving improperly, and would like a genuine answer to the perfectly legitimate questions I posed in my post.

[Roamy]

sounds to me as if Kimi will be at Brawn -

[Saint Devote]

sounds to me as if Kimi will be at Brawn -

Sounds to me as if the Silly Season is in high gear! :eek:

[jas123f1]

Sounds to me as if the Silly Season is in high gear! :eek:

Kimi told the Swedish TV in an interview that he’s not concerned about all the speculations of his future – he said he is a Ferrari driver and has a contract for 2010 – what he will do after that he can’t say at the moment.

But he also earlier said that the team (Ferrari) make what they “want” - but he has in any case a F1-car to drive 2010.. Ferraris chairman Luca di Montezemolo assures that the team is delighted with as things stand at present – which (probably) means there is no need for any changes..

It also looks that there will not be any 3-cars team 2010 - Frank Williams is not going to accept that the bigger teams have 3 cars and that means Ferrari has no need to hire any driver for 2010.

Regarding to Ferrari / Santander deal - Luca di Montezemolo said “It’s not sponsors who select our drivers - and add to that - that Kimi is on his top and Massa recovering very well from his accident...

So that means (if i understand it right) for Alonso’s possibilities to get a Ferrari drive (if any) is a question for later discussions..

:)

[truefan72]

everyone always thinks it is a forgon conclusion that Alosno will be in Ferrari, but I am not so sure Ferrari are courting Alonsi the wayhe is courting them. For this to happen they would have to buy out Kimi's very large contract, and think that massa and alonso will be a good pairing. I doubt that would happen. If Alonso joins the team, he would expect the type of entitlement that MSC enjoyed and what he though he would get from McLaren. But massa is no pushover both on the track and personality wise.

If they get rid of massa ( a real possibility) then kimi would care less if Alonso was here or not and will continue to perform by doing his own thing. He will absolutely not play second fiddle to Alonso and team orders would be out of the question. You would see on track racing of a high caliber and potentially dicey situations. Either way it will be up to Alonso to adjust his behavior.

Kimi sits pretty IMO. Mclaren and Brawn and possibly even toyota as a good option.(with toyota offering him a staggering deal)

[ioan]

Kimi sits pretty IMO. Mclaren and Brawn and possibly even toyota as a good option.(with toyota offering him a staggering deal)

I wonder how staggering deal Toyota could offer anyone when they do not even have their budget confirmed for next year (it will be only decided in November after the season is over) and are reported to take a huge cut from this year's budget anyway.

[truefan72]

car budget and driver budget are two different things.

IMO toyota should be a race winning car. With hopefully a shakeup in the management team and the addition of a top flight driver,I do think that they can make it happen in 2010. they should have already won a race this year and it is just the buffoonery of the race engineers and principles that have caused them not to. I continue to be baffled by their lack of success. If you took the mclaren, ferrari, brawn or RBR crew and gave them the toyota car, specs and data without asking them to innovate anything, they would see that car at the top step of the podium. I will always believe that it is a great car undermined by those folks involved in strategy and to a lesser part by underperforming drivers

[Saint Devote]

Kimi told the Swedish TV in an interview that he’s not concerned about all the speculations of his future – he said he is a Ferrari driver and has a contract for 2010 – what he will do after that he can’t say at the moment.

But he also earlier said that the team (Ferrari) make what they “want” - but he has in any case a F1-car to drive 2010.. Ferraris chairman Luca di Montezemolo assures that the team is delighted with as things stand at present – which (probably) means there is no need for any changes..

It also looks that there will not be any 3-cars team 2010 - Frank Williams is not going to accept that the bigger teams have 3 cars and that means Ferrari has no need to hire any driver for 2010.

Regarding to Ferrari / Santander deal - Luca di Montezemolo said “It’s not sponsors who select our drivers - and add to that - that Kimi is on his top and Massa recovering very well from his accident...

So that means (if i understand it right) for Alonso’s possibilities to get a Ferrari drive (if any) is a question for later discussions..

:)

I consider the whole Alonso-Mclaren disaster to be the result of not equal but essentially disinterest by Dennis.

If you read what Alain Prost says, after Senna's arrival into the second season, he was almost totally isolated. And when he beat Senna for the title nobody from the Senna side of the garage or any Mclaren management even congratulated him. He realized his time at Mclaren had essentially ended and he went to Ferrari.

Incredible to know is that his "team" consisted of THREE people!

Ferrari does not operate like that. Its whole culture is one of inclusion - Kimi is a good example of someone that is noticeably reticent to become part of that Ferrari inclusiveness - and Ferrari gives him his space, to their credit.

So I would say Alonso would fit in the Ferrari team well, receive equal attention - he complained butterly that at Mclaren, almost from the beginning, the team only really listened to Hamilton.

If he is available, I cannot believe that Ferrari would continue with Massa rather than Alonso.

And while Ferrari do not allow sponsors to select their drivers, they can make contracts with companies that decide to sponsor them BECAUSE of drivers selected.

[ioan]

car budget and driver budget are two different things.

Not at all, not at all, they are both part of the team's budget and Toyota's team budget has not been yet approved by their board of directors who are sitting and watching from Tokyo (and are happy that Honda were stupid enough to give up after investing 3/4 of a billion last year).

Already this year Toyota's budget has been reduced due to the financial crisis and they are looking to reduce it to close to 100 million for next year. This is one of the reasons why they don't want to renew Trulli's contract, because he wants more money than they are ready to pay him.

So where should they find money to make such extraordinary offers to Raikkonen when they don't have the money to pay what Trulli is asking?

[DexDexter]

Not at all, not at all, they are both part of the team's budget and Toyota's team budget has not been yet approved by their board of directors who are sitting and watching from Tokyo (and are happy that Honda were stupid enough to give up after investing 3/4 of a billion last year).

Already this year Toyota's budget has been reduced due to the financial crisis and they are looking to reduce it to close to 100 million for next year. This is one of the reasons why they don't want to renew Trulli's contract, because he wants more money than they are ready to pay him.

So where should they find money to make such extraordinary offers to Raikkonen when they don't have the money to pay what Trulli is asking?

And Räikkönen is not even interested in driving for Toyota. I mean what are they going to do next year? My guess is that they will come up with an inconsistent car, the technical team they have have done it every single year.

[ioan]

And Räikkönen is not even interested in driving for Toyota.

That I can believe.

[rabf1]

Ferrari would be foolish to sack Kimi. Nobody knows for sure whether Massa will get back to what he was. And what he was was only a little above average.

I can't wait to see what Fred's excuse is when he gets smoked by Kimi.

[ioan]

I can't wait to see what Fred's excuse is when he gets smoked by Kimi.

Like Felipe smoked Kimi? :D

Kimi is way to inconsistent and winning only 1 race in more than one year is really not what Ferrari were expecting in return for a 50 million paycheck (per year that is).

If Felipe isn't around next season Ferrari can still have Alonso instead of Kimi (as I'm pretty sure that the managers of both these drivers will not accept that their proteges lose face driving against each other in the same car as their market value would plummet), and at least they know that Alonso is consistent every time he gets in a car.

I'm not saying Kimi isn't fast enough to be a Ferrari driver, he sure is as fast as any other diver out there, it's just that he sometimes let's his twin brother take the wheel way to often and the speed is not there when that happens.

[Dzeidzei]

Like Felipe smoked Kimi? :D

Kimi is way to inconsistent and winning only 1 race in more than one year is really not what Ferrari were expecting in return for a 50 million paycheck (per year that is).

If Felipe isn't around next season Ferrari can still have Alonso instead of Kimi (as I'm pretty sure that the managers of both these drivers will not accept that their proteges lose face driving against each other in the same car as their market value would plummet), and at least they know that Alonso is consistent every time he gets in a car.

I'm not saying Kimi isn't fast enough to be a Ferrari driver, he sure is as fast as any other diver out there, it's just that he sometimes let's his twin brother take the wheel way to often and the speed is not there when that happens.

Well, couple of days ago I was certain that all the Finns would switch teams next year. Now it seems HK will stay at McL, Nico will move to Brawn and Kimi will stay at Ferrari.

So expect Alonso driving for Ferrari in 2011. The big Q is what will he be doing next year.

[DexDexter]

Like Felipe smoked Kimi? :D

Kimi is way to inconsistent and winning only 1 race in more than one year is really not what Ferrari were expecting in return for a 50 million paycheck (per year that is).

If Felipe isn't around next season Ferrari can still have Alonso instead of Kimi (as I'm pretty sure that the managers of both these drivers will not accept that their proteges lose face driving against each other in the same car as their market value would plummet), and at least they know that Alonso is consistent every time he gets in a car.

I'm not saying Kimi isn't fast enough to be a Ferrari driver, he sure is as fast as any other diver out there, it's just that he sometimes let's his twin brother take the wheel way to often and the speed is not there when that happens.

His twin brother is actually a big brother called Rami. Are you saying that he took Kimi's place in some of the races in 2008? :)

[Malbec]

everyone always thinks it is a forgon conclusion that Alosno will be in Ferrari, but I am not so sure Ferrari are courting Alonsi the wayhe is courting them. For this to happen they would have to buy out Kimi's very large contract, and think that massa and alonso will be a good pairing. I doubt that would happen. If Alonso joins the team, he would expect the type of entitlement that MSC enjoyed and what he though he would get from McLaren. But massa is no pushover both on the track and personality wise.

If they get rid of massa ( a real possibility) then kimi would care less if Alonso was here or not and will continue to perform by doing his own thing. He will absolutely not play second fiddle to Alonso and team orders would be out of the question. You would see on track racing of a high caliber and potentially dicey situations. Either way it will be up to Alonso to adjust his behavior.

Kimi sits pretty IMO. Mclaren and Brawn and possibly even toyota as a good option.(with toyota offering him a staggering deal)

You probably wrote that before Santander confirmed that they'd switch to Ferrari, but that pretty much guarantees that Alonso will be driving in red if not in 2010 from 2011.

Kimi doesn't really stand in a strong position. He certainly is in no position to ever get paid as much as he has been, the recession will take care of that. He had better hope and pray that Massa is slower than he's been when he comes back because otherwise he doesn't really have a chance of keeping his seat at Ferrari.

Will McLaren have Kimi back? Why would they need him? Things are working out well with Lewis and all they need is a competent support driver.

Brawn? Maybe, but on a salary similar to Button, ditto for Toyota.

The question is what does Kimi really want to do? He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who wants to break records and I can see him switching sports to find something else that interests him, why else would he compete in WRC? He may not want to remain in F1 that much longer at all.

[ioan]

His twin brother is actually a big brother called Rami. Are you saying that he took Kimi's place in some of the races in 2008? :)

It certainly looked like Rami drove for most of 2008 and 2009. :)

[Dzeidzei]

It certainly looked like Rami drove for most of 2008 and 2009. :)

Just for the record: Rami is the older brother. And he´s the silent one :) And Ive seen Kimis family at races but they dont come to the paddock.

Btw, thats something I dont understand, but its another story anyway...

[ioan]

Just for the record: Rami is the older brother. And he´s the silent one :) And Ive seen Kimis family at races but they dont come to the paddock.

Btw, thats something I dont understand, but its another story anyway...

I was just kidding.

BTW I remember seeing his wife and grand mother in the Ferrari pits during a race last year or in 2007.

[Koz]

As as I said in another thread... Kimi was drinking a Red Bull pretty publically after qualifying. Could this be a sign? Surely that can be considered advertising for RB, no?
Ferrari wouldn't allow such a slip up would they?

[ioan]

As as I said in another thread... Kimi was drinking a Red Bull pretty publically after qualifying. Could this be a sign? Surely that can be considered advertising for RB, no?
Ferrari wouldn't allow such a slip up would they?

Both Felipe and Kimi have been doing that since last season at least.

[UltimateDanGTR]

As as I said in another thread... Kimi was drinking a Red Bull pretty publically after qualifying. Could this be a sign? Surely that can be considered advertising for RB, no?
Ferrari wouldn't allow such a slip up would they?

he was also eating a magnum in malaysia, maybe this is a sign that magnum are gonna have an F1 team next year and kimi is gonna be his their main driver? :p :

Oh, and as far as I have seen, red bull have contracted webber and vettel already for next year, I think ;)

[DexDexter]

As as I said in another thread... Kimi was drinking a Red Bull pretty publically after qualifying. Could this be a sign? Surely that can be considered advertising for RB, no?
Ferrari wouldn't allow such a slip up would they?

A good one :D

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78629

:confused:
Domenicali's comments seem a bit contradicting. He is praising Kimi a lot, yet seems to want to get rid of him. What's the point? Alonso/Santander can't wait for one more year?

[Robinho]

he was also eating a magnum in malaysia, maybe this is a sign that magnum are gonna have an F1 team next year and kimi is gonna be his their main driver? :p :

Oh, and as far as I have seen, red bull have contracted webber and vettel already for next year, I think ;)

is Tom Selleck signed up as Kimi's teammate for the Magnum F1 team?

[ioan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78629

:confused:
Domenicali's comments seem a bit contradicting. He is praising Kimi a lot, yet seems to want to get rid of him. What's the point? Alonso/Santander can't wait for one more year?

He's not going to bash him in front of the press, Stefano isn't a low life like Flavio.

Ferrari know that Kimi didn't perform well enough for a very very long period and probably ask themselves if he is driving really well now or not given that they don't have a serious benchmark for him since Felipe is out.

Also who is to say that as soon as they decide to keep him he won't underperform again?

Also probably Santander are pushing hard to get Alonso in that seat for 2010 already.

[F1boat]

Maybe they are negotiating for a salary cut, but after the second part of the season I really wish that they will keep Kimi and I really wish that he wins them the WDC next year...

[Dzeidzei]

is Tom Selleck signed up as Kimi's teammate for the Magnum F1 team?

Nopes. Ferrari has been signing tomsellecks as his teammate since Felipes weird accident.

[Daika]

Despite a good if not great second half of the season i hope Kimi going to leave Ferrari. He just isn't the guy to drive 19 races flat out. There are days he is daydreaming or sleepwalking his way around the circuit.

[DexDexter]

He's not going to bash him in front of the press, Stefano isn't a low life like Flavio.

Ferrari know that Kimi didn't perform well enough for a very very long period and probably ask themselves if he is driving really well now or not given that they don't have a serious benchmark for him since Felipe is out.

Also who is to say that as soon as they decide to keep him he won't underperform again?

Also probably Santander are pushing hard to get Alonso in that seat for 2010 already.

Replacing Kimi with Alonso would not change the situation at Ferrari. Massa would also take points away from Fred and is well-liked in the team. I could see a potential problem arising there as well, Fred could feel that the team supports Massa more than they should. They need to figure out what they want to do. Two good drivers or one good and one average one.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Nopes. Ferrari has been signing tomsellecks as his teammate since Felipes weird accident.

Thats not what ive heard, apparently tomsellecks is heading to what will be made out of the old Reanult F1 team, ScandalRaceFixing F1 Team ;)

[ioan]

Replacing Kimi with Alonso would not change the situation at Ferrari. Massa would also take points away from Fred and is well-liked in the team. I could see a potential problem arising there as well, Fred could feel that the team supports Massa more than they should. They need to figure out what they want to do. Two good drivers or one good and one average one.

They had 2 good drivers in 2007 and 2008 and they won 3 out of 4 championships and the 4th was lost by 1 point only. Not bad if you ask me.

[Dzeidzei]

I was just kidding.

BTW I remember seeing his wife and grand mother in the Ferrari pits during a race last year or in 2007.

Thats probably true. But thats not in EVERY grand prix like the hamiltons and massas of the world. I just wonder if thats helpful or distracting.

[F1boat]

Replacing Kimi with Alonso would not change the situation at Ferrari. Massa would also take points away from Fred and is well-liked in the team. I could see a potential problem arising there as well, Fred could feel that the team supports Massa more than they should. They need to figure out what they want to do. Two good drivers or one good and one average one.

In my opinion if they replace Kimi with Fred they will have huge mess very soon, and they will deserve it. But hopefully they will stick with Kimi.

[ioan]

Thats probably true. But thats not in EVERY grand prix like the hamiltons and massas of the world. I just wonder if thats helpful or distracting.

I guess it's different for each of us. Probably for you it would be disturbing and I'll acknowledge that for me too as I didn't grow up with my family nannying me around.
However apparently other people feel better when their family is supporting them.

[mstillhere]

Maybe they are negotiating for a salary cut, but after the second part of the season I really wish that they will keep Kimi and I really wish that he wins them the WDC next year...

If you ask me, I would definetly keep Kimi and show Massa the door. After all, out of them two, kimi is the one who has accomplished more at Ferrari.

[truefan72]

If you ask me, I would definetly keep Kimi and show Massa the door. After all, out of them two, kimi is the one who has accomplished more at Ferrari.

Id say keep them both. Why change a good thing.

[ioan]

If you ask me...

Better not. :p :

[F1boat]

Id say keep them both. Why change a good thing.

I agree.

[DexDexter]

They had 2 good drivers in 2007 and 2008 and they won 3 out of 4 championships and the 4th was lost by 1 point only. Not bad if you ask me.

Yep, but they wouldn't have lost last year's drivers championship if they had a clear number one driver who always finishes ahead of his teammate, by team order if necessary. Personally I think that kind of team policy is unfair.

[ioan]

Yep, but they wouldn't have lost last year's drivers championship if they had a clear number one driver who always finishes ahead of his teammate, by team order if necessary. Personally I think that kind of team policy is unfair.

Really? And how would you have done that when you have two drivers like Felipe and Kimi?

1. They chose at the beginning of the season to support Kimi and he than has the slump in performance he had until not so long ago. WDC title would have been lost by more than one point.

2. They chose to support Felipe and he comes within 1 point of the WDC because engine and pit failures.

Looks to me that if Ferrari would have made one less technical mistake they would have got both titles last year. A much easier solution than trying to guess which of the two drivers to support.

[DexDexter]

Really? And how would you have done that when you have two drivers like Felipe and Kimi?

1. They chose at the beginning of the season to support Kimi and he than has the slump in performance he had until not so long ago. WDC title would have been lost by more than one point.

2. They chose to support Felipe and he comes within 1 point of the WDC because engine and pit failures.

Looks to me that if Ferrari would have made one less technical mistake they would have got both titles last year. A much easier solution than trying to guess which of the two drivers to support.

What I'm saying is they must make up their minds about what kind of team they want to be. If they hire Alonso and partner him with Massa, they may well again end up in a situation where Alonso is paid zillions of dollars and is sometimes beaten by the underrated second driver, Felipe. Maybe the problem is that Massa is too good to be the second driver. Why not back him then? They don't seem to want to do that either. This talk about getting rid of Kimi is IMO all about not believing in Massa's skills.

[SGWilko]

Why is Massa still looked upon as 'the second driver'?

I think he has done more than enough now to show he is up there with Kimi.

He strikes me more of a team player, takes more interest in the technical side and spends time understanding the technicalities of the team.

He has clearly learned a lot from Michael.

I personally hope he returns to F1 even faster and more determined.

[DexDexter]

Why is Massa still looked upon as 'the second driver'?

I think he has done more than enough now to show he is up there with Kimi.

He strikes me more of a team player, takes more interest in the technical side and spends time understanding the technicalities of the team.

He has clearly learned a lot from Michael.

I personally hope he returns to F1 even faster and more determined.

Exactly. All the critisism Kimi has got is basically about not beating Massa by a great margin, that's the bottom line. Massa did quite well against Michael in his first year considering that he was new in the team. Maybe Massa is up there with the best. He's 15 seconds away from that :)

[Knock-on]

I really cannot see why they would consider changing Kimi or Massa. They are both doing the job OK and I cannot see Alonso accepting joint status.

First we need to see Massa back and up to full speed.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

[Dave B]

Why is Massa still looked upon as 'the second driver'?

I think he has done more than enough now to show he is up there with Kimi.

He strikes me more of a team player, takes more interest in the technical side and spends time understanding the technicalities of the team.

He has clearly learned a lot from Michael.

I personally hope he returns to F1 even faster and more determined.
:up:

Massa drove like a demented tit in his Sauber years, but has quietly and quickly matured into one of the best drivers out there. He was absolutely peerless in the changing conditions at Brazil 2008, and the dignity with which he won the race but lost the championship marked him out as a true sportsman in every sense of the word.

In any other team he'd be the number one by a country mile, but by partnering him with Kimi and possibly Alonso in the future, Ferrari are diluting their championship efforts between two drivers when their own history shows that the better course is to favour just one.

[Dave B]

...I cannot see Alonso accepting joint status.
Not a chance. He's phenomenal, but the cracks appear when his team mate starts to pressure him. Not a problem at Renault as he's Flavio's golden child: the likes of Trulli and Fisichella were kept in check, while if you believe PIquet Jnr his career was sabatoged. Renault - like Benetton before them - are a one-car team.

Partner Alonso with the Hamiltons or Raikkonens of this world, and it's a recipe for disaster.

[ioan]

Massa drove like a demented tit in his Sauber years...

He talked about that in one of his post accident interview. Apparently he was under huge pressure to perform at Sauber because he had not financial backer and was constantly threatened with losing his seat to drivers who had financial backing. So he thought his only alternative was to drive as fast as possible even though that meant he threw it away often.
IMO his tactics paid off when he managed to be Ferrari's test driver for 2003 and from that moment on with less financial related pressure on him he managed to improve his driving.

This all doesn't mean he wasn't erratic in his first years, it's just meant to explain why he didn't got the slow but sure route.

[DexDexter]

Not a chance. He's phenomenal, but the cracks appear when his team mate starts to pressure him. Not a problem at Renault as he's Flavio's golden child: the likes of Trulli and Fisichella were kept in check, while if you believe PIquet Jnr his career was sabatoged. Renault - like Benetton before them - are a one-car team.

Partner Alonso with the Hamiltons or Raikkonens of this world, and it's a recipe for disaster.

I agree, Fred is an incredible driver but his mental side is weaker than Raikkonen's. Have you heard a single complaint from Kimi about his treatment at Ferrari? He's been criticized for a year now and still he has kept his calm. And he has made no excuses when he hasn't performed.

[F1boat]

I agree, Fred is an incredible driver but his mental side is weaker than Raikkonen's. Have you heard a single complaint from Kimi about his treatment at Ferrari? He's been criticized for a year now and still he has kept his calm. And he has made no excuses when he hasn't performed.

He has been very loyal for Ferrari and that's why I hope that they will keep him. If they drop him... Ferrari is Ferrari, I will always have a soft spot for them, but they will deserve to be beaten by Kimi, no matter whether he is driving McLaren, Renault or Brawn GP car.
But I continue to hope that he will drive for Ferrari :)

[JRodrigues]

ioan, can you please tell us once and for all that you are anti-Kimi and leave the topic please? You're getting ridiculous..

[stevie_gerrard]

I think his future at Ferrari is limited,despite his wonderful consistency at the moment. Its obvious that Ferrari don't want him, they want Massa and Alonso next season, with Fisi the reserve driver. They will be grateful for his great form this season after a torrid start, but i think they already committed way before this spurt from Kimi ever happened. Expect Kimi back in a Mclaren next season, you heard it here first ;)

[jas123f1]

Kimi is an honest guy and a top driver who all the time has made and make the best job he can.

In beginning of this year Massa said that now Ferrari is concentrating efforts to him.. and the team confirm that clearly (even to Kimi) giving Felipe the car number 3 – a year before Kimi hade the lower number. That was a bit unfair because Kimi was helping Massa 2008 and that make his own results a bit worse..

But ok – maybe it’s fair to give Massa a chance to the title – he is today a much better driver and been at Ferrari many years. So I think also Kimi accepted that Massa was - if not number one so anyway teams “the favourite to the title the driver”.

I wrote already when Kimi went to Ferrari – he is not good as the second driver and if he has the feeling of to be one - then he maybe work as a second driver.. Every one remember the situation Rubens was working with Schumi … Kimi is not Rubens.. Kimi must have the full support – then he is as the best.

2007 after that Massa didn’t have any more possibilities to the title and team gave 100% support to Kimi - he made really great job – taking the title .. but first after that Ferrari gave him a “Schumi support” – not before…

Drivers like Kimi and Alonso they don’t work very well if they feel that they have 90% of team mates support – because they are fighters.. I believe that if Alonso is coming in the team then he need 100% and the risk is that Massa will be as the second fiddler OR the “Alonso- Ferrari marriage” can be a short one - like McLaren.

I think that’s the reason why Kimi is so much better after Massas accident.. today Kimi feels that he has the team 100% behind him – and that gives him the extra spirit what every top driver need ..

However - so in my mind Ferrari has made wrong “politic” .. and therefore it’s unfair to kick any of drivers before their contract goes out. Alonso can wait to 2011 season ..

But if they kick Kimi - then i realy hope he goes back to McLaren and take the title 2010 ...

[Saint Devote]

He talked about that in one of his post accident interview. Apparently he was under huge pressure to perform at Sauber because he had not financial backer and was constantly threatened with losing his seat to drivers who had financial backing. So he thought his only alternative was to drive as fast as possible even though that meant he threw it away often.
IMO his tactics paid off when he managed to be Ferrari's test driver for 2003 and from that moment on with less financial related pressure on him he managed to improve his driving.

This all doesn't mean he wasn't erratic in his first years, it's just meant to explain why he didn't got the slow but sure route.

Massa actually broke the rules - he let rip at Maranello - he was limited to the speed he was allowed - and equalled Schumacher's lap times.

He was bored and frustrated with being a test driver and decided to try and change it. He succeeded.

But Todt did read him the riot act as well.....

[Saint Devote]

I do not think it is because of weakness he is strong mentally.

But the question is why favor Raikkonen over Massa? Because Massa is weak mentally and at their best Raikkonen has greater ability.

Can anyone doubt that Massa could not have done what Kimi did at Spa?

And at the end of the day there has never been doubt that Raikkonen can deliver a championship? He did.

[ioan]

In beginning of this year Massa said that now Ferrari is concentrating efforts to him..

A link to this claim would be appreciated.


...and the team confirm that clearly (even to Kimi) giving Felipe the car number 3 – a year before Kimi hade the lower number.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion but given that Felipe finished last season with more points than Kimi he got the lower number on the car, it really doesn't need a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

[Garry Walker]

Ferrari should stick with Kimi and Massa.
Kimi was better in 2007, Massa in 2008 and in 2009 they were equal. Just that Kimi had some misfortune of getting stuck behind slow cars in quite a few races and then Massa had his accident. Both have driven very well, considering by all admission that the Ferrari is a very tricky car to handle.
As admitted by Fisichella too.

I reckon they are both better drivers than the spanish primadonna.

[DexDexter]

Ferrari should stick with Kimi and Massa.
Kimi was better in 2007, Massa in 2008 and in 2009 they were equal. Just that Kimi had some misfortune of getting stuck behind slow cars in quite a few races and then Massa had his accident. Both have driven very well, considering by all admission that the Ferrari is a very tricky car to handle.
As admitted by Fisichella too.

I reckon they are both better drivers than the spanish primadonna.

Kimi has said that he has had problems getting the Ferrari work in qualifying for the last three years, the whole time he's been at Ferrari. That's the only excuse he has made of 2008. It's bit weird how people here and in general thought that he wasn't as good or motivated as before. That wasn't the case, he just couldn't drive the car as he wanted to. Of course it's partially his responsibility to set the car to suit him but IMO Ferrari are also partly to blame for not being able to help to get the car setup the way he wants it. Still I don't want to take anything away from Massa, he is a very good driver indeed.

[jas123f1]

[Quote = Ioan; 690.091] En länk till detta påstående skulle uppskattas.



Jag vet inte hur du kom till denna slutsats, men med tanke på att Felipe avslutade förra säsongen med fler poäng än Kimi han fick färre på bilen, det är verkligen inte behöver någon raketforskare för att räkna här ute. [/ QUOTE ]

That was a time a go - so you can believe what I’m saying (or not) ,,

To the second: I wrote #That was a bit unfair because Kimi was helping Massa 2008 and that make his own results a bit worse# - didn’t you see ?

:)

[ioan]

[Quote = Ioan; 690.091] En länk till detta påstående skulle uppskattas.

Jag vet inte hur du kom till denna slutsats, men med tanke på att Felipe avslutade förra säsongen med fler poäng än Kimi han fick färre på bilen, det är verkligen inte behöver någon raketforskare för att räkna här ute. [/ QUOTE]

That was a time a go - so you can believe what I’m saying (or not) ,,

To the second: I wrote #That was a bit unfair because Kimi was helping Massa 2008 and that make his own results a bit worse# - didn’t you see ?

:)

I never posted that, even though I would like to be able to write in that language. :p :

I would appreciate a link to a quote where Felipe says what you were claiming in your previous post.

[DexDexter]

I never posted that, even though I would like to be able to write in that language. :p :

I would appreciate a link to a quote where Felipe says what you were claiming in your previous post.

Swedish (which is the second official language in Finland by the way) is related to English, German etc, so I'm sure you could learn it pretty quickly. :)

[ioan]

Swedish (which is the second official language in Finland by the way) is related to English, German etc, so I'm sure you could learn it pretty quickly. :)

I might give it a try one day. For now I'm happy enough perfecting my German which is the 6th language I learned.

Maybe a 7th would be great but I was planning something exotic like Japanese or Korean. ;)

[DexDexter]

I might give it a try one day. For now I'm happy enough perfecting my German which is the 6th language I learned.

Maybe a 7th would be great but I was planning something exotic like Japanese or Korean. ;)

Lycka till! :D

[ioan]

Lycka till! :D

Tack! :)

[DexDexter]

Licking a till would be dirty, especially with all that money going in and out :p

:laugh:

[ioan]

Licking a till would be dirty, especially with all that money going in and out :p

:D

[jas123f1]

I never posted that, even though I would like to be able to write in that language. :p :

I would appreciate a link to a quote where Felipe says what you were claiming in your previous post.

Oh sorry :p :
Some one has used automatically translation in Google and I didn't see that so Google tranlated it to Swedish..

What I wrote was:

That was a time a go - so you can believe what I’m saying (or not) ,

To the second i wrote (to give Kimi a loer number): I wrote #That was a bit unfair because Kimi was helping Massa 2008 and that make his own results a bit worse# - didn’t you see ?

[ioan]

To the second i wrote (to give Kimi a loer number): I wrote #That was a bit unfair because Kimi was helping Massa 2008 and that make his own results a bit worse# - didn’t you see ?

Felipe also helped Kimi get the title in 2007 so it was reasonable for Kimi to help Felipe.
This doesn't change the fact that the driver with better position in the final standings gets the lower number on his car. For me this only means that they treat their drivers equally.

[jas123f1]

Felipe also helped Kimi get the title in 2007 so it was reasonable for Kimi to help Felipe.

Sure - and the car number is not that big thing - but it was unnecessary and not that clever when thinking that they did it against one of the best driver on the greed and when they same time gave him a 2 years contract with a huge salary. That’s difficult to understand what they were thinking.. if they ware were thinking..

:)

[jens]

Because Massa is weak mentally and at their best Raikkonen has greater ability.


Meh? Mentally weak? If Massa was mentally weak, he would have collapsed after the two opening races in 2008, after which everyone was calling for his head. But Massa kept his cool, learned from his mistakes and started driving better than ever before.

[keysersoze]

Meh? Mentally weak? If Massa was mentally weak, he would have collapsed after the two opening races in 2008, after which everyone was calling for his head. But Massa kept his cool, learned from his mistakes and started driving better than ever before.

Jens, the only thing weak around here is that stuff Saint Devote keeps serving up. :D

With Massa, we can be certain that this chap is giving it his utmost in every corner on every lap in every session he's on the track. And the ONLY other driver I can say that about besides Felipe is Lewis Hamilton. Which is not to say I think the other drivers aren't trying hard, because I believe Glock, Webber, Kubica, Rubens, and Vettel are hanging it out 99% of the time, too.

I can't say the same for Kimi, howsoever talented he is.

[Boudica]

It would be much better for Kimi to leave Ferrari, he doesn't have the nessary support within the team, and he cant play the team politics. He just doesn't fit into Ferrari. Going to Brawn will be a very interesting option, especially working with Ross Brawn. Mclaren would also be another good option, and the engineers at Mclaren still has a lot of respect for him. With all the rule changes next year it might be better to be driving a Mercedes engine, Ferrari's fuel consumption seems to be too high. Something is definitly going on, either Mclaren are courting Kimi or a deal has already been signed.

http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss231/Anelise30/raikkonenmonza.jpg

http://www.hoch-zwei.net/archive/p_70361-139109171414.jpg

[F1boat]

I can see Kimi returning in McLaren Mercedes, but I am not sure that he will fit in Brawn GP. Kimi is a bit if a rebel and Brawn demands supreme discipline... Still I hope that he will stay at Ferrari. Check this article:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/mixed-signals-from-monza-on-the-alonso-ferrari-marriage/

[F1boat]

But maybe it will be good for Kimi if he stays in Ferrari for another year...

[DexDexter]

Keke Rosberg says Fernando will drive for Ferrari next year while Auto Motor und Sport reports that Kimi will go to Mclaren. These are interesting times.


http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2009/09/957869

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/formel-1-fahrer-karussell-2010-kimi-raeikkoenen-zu-mclaren-mercedes-1413359.html

[Giuseppe F1]

f1-live.com and The Mirror newspaper (a tabloid though) in England are reporting that Kimi has signed an outline agreement to return to McLaren next year:

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090920103457.shtml

[harsha]

Kimi to Mclaren will be great....but i want Rosberg in Mclaren too....I have a gut feel that Rosberg will be heading to Brawn if Kimi goes to Mclaren...maybe Mercedes = German Driver :?:

[Saint Devote]

These stories do not make sense.

Raikkonen to Mclaren I can understand because it is a move from one top team to another, despite the team essentially setup in Hamilton's favor, but Ron Dennis is no longer there. Whitmarsh may well ensure that there is equality - but who gets a new part when one is only available such as this year?

But why would Ferrari get rid of the Finn and retain Massa, paying out millions? It makes more sense to retain Raikkonen alongside Alonso.

The victory at Spa was a peformance was Kimi all the way.

Then, why would Brawn and Mercedes favor Rosberg over Barrichello - Nico has not done anything to demonstrate he is a topline driver. He may have beaten "Kaz" on most occassions this season but Nakajima is hardly a significant benchmark.

Why is Rosberg thought of as such a must have driver - just because he is German and Mercedes may desire that?

Ferrari should rather keep Raikkonen, Mercedes should sign with williams and keep Rosberg together with Hulkenberg for 2010.

Or as they will be powered with Mercedes, Mclaren ought to try sign Hulkenberg although he must be ready mentally because having Lewis as temmate at Mclaren is the toughest assignment in racing today - it is a reputation destroyer.

[Malbec]

But why would Ferrari get rid of the Finn and retain Massa, paying out millions? It makes more sense to retain Raikkonen alongside Alonso.

The victory at Spa was a peformance was Kimi all the way.

Kimi's performance does not warrant a seat at Ferrari when the Italian team have a choice of him, Alonso or Massa. His performance has fluctuated considerably when it was expected that he'd slot in where Michael left off and be the lead Ferrari driver. It isn't a coincidence that Massa was the lead Ferrari driver last year and continued to be so this year until his accident.

Factor in his astonishingly high salary and no wonder Kimi doesn't look particularly attractive for Ferrari.

Massa is also on a very low salary for someone in his position, having been snapped up by Ferrari when he really didn't look very good and was on his way out of F1.

Another thing, Massa is far more popular within the team than Kimi, he speaks Italian and wasn't forced upon the team unlike Kimi who was chosen by Luca De Montezemolo against the team seniors' wishes.

The only fly in the ointment is Massa's injury, will he be quite as quick when he comes back compared to before?

[ioan]

These stories do not make sense.

Depends on one's point of view.
As far as I'm concerned is exactly what I was expecting to happen since last season already.

[Saint Devote]

Depends on one's point of view.
As far as I'm concerned is exactly what I was expecting to happen since last season already.

Why?

How does it make sense to you that Ferrari pay tens of millions of euros for nothing and get rid of a driver like Raikkonen but retain Massa - with the added uncertainty whether he is able to race properly again?

Then when there is a driver like Hulkenberg around why would Mercedes want to place Rosberg in a Brawn or Mclaren for example? Rather provide angines for Williams and stow Hulkenberg in a Mclaren alongside Lewis and Kubica to Brawn.

If the current believed permutations go ahead then the silly season will indeed have earned its name.

[Malbec]

As far as I'm concerned is exactly what I was expecting to happen since last season already.

Precisely. The only surprise for me is that Kimi was retained on such a lucrative salary last year. That was what didn't make sense, not that he is being kicked out. I guess Alonso's availability made all the difference.

[ioan]

Why?

How does it make sense to you that Ferrari pay tens of millions of euros for nothing and get rid of a driver like Raikkonen but retain Massa - with the added uncertainty whether he is able to race properly again?

Because Kimi has been anything but consistent during the last 2 seasons.
Because they will have Alonso on board in Kimi's place, which means a very consistent driver who you can rely on, exactly as Felipe.
Because even if Felipe won't be 100% as good as before, I hope he will be even better, Ferrari will have Alonso plus Felipe or any other young promising driver they will want to give a chance to.
Also why keep pis$ing money down the drain hoping that Kimi will stay awake for the next race?!

Since the point system change back in 2003 consistency is the key to win championships and that's why Alonso will be in a Ferrari. McLaren had him and failed to make it work I'm pretty sure that Ferrari will deal with him differently i.e. won't favor any of their drivers over the other, just like they did with Felipe and Kimi.


Then when there is a driver like Hulkenberg around why would Mercedes want to place Rosberg in a Brawn or Mclaren for example? Rather provide angines for Williams and stow Hulkenberg in a Mclaren alongside Lewis and Kubica to Brawn.

AFAIK Mercedes refused to supply Williams with engines so no Hulkenberg to Mercedes powered team possible.

[ioan]

With respect, I think the reason it failed at Mclaren was because they didn't favour one over the other. Alonso got unsettled because the environment wasn't dedicated to him solely as a number one. I know people like to think Lewis got to sit on Ron's lap and be top dog but that simply wasn't the case.

Yeah, sure! :D
What did Ron say after the 2007 Japanese GP?
Ah yeah, I remember now: "We were not racing against Kimi, we were racing against Alonso!"
This denotes no favoritism at all, if you're Ray Charles, otherwise it was there for everyone to see.
:wave:

[DexDexter]

Because Kimi has been anything but consistent during the last 2 seasons.
Because they will have Alonso on board in Kimi's place, which means a very consistent driver who you can rely on, exactly as Felipe.
Because even if Felipe won't be 100% as good as before, I hope he will be even better,

Kimi was also very consistent before he went to Ferrari, so one never really knows what's going to happen with Alonso or any driver when he changes teams. But as I've written before, how do think Alonso will cope when he realises that the team likes Felipe more?

[Dzeidzei]

...unlike Kimi who was chosen by Luca De Montezemolo against the team seniors' wishes.

I always had the impression Luca, Jean and Michael all wanted Kimi to join Ferrari. So which seniors are you referring to? And could find any support for that claim?

[DexDexter]

I always had the impression Luca, Jean and Michael all wanted Kimi to join Ferrari. So which seniors are you referring to? And could find any support for that claim?

I suspect Jean Todt was the man who most wanted Räikkönen at Ferrari. That would make sense since the guy has a long history of working with Finnish drivers.

[Saint Devote]

Kimi's performance does not warrant a seat at Ferrari when the Italian team have a choice of him, Alonso or Massa. His performance has fluctuated considerably when it was expected that he'd slot in where Michael left off and be the lead Ferrari driver. It isn't a coincidence that Massa was the lead Ferrari driver last year and continued to be so this year until his accident.

Factor in his astonishingly high salary and no wonder Kimi doesn't look particularly attractive for Ferrari.

Massa is also on a very low salary for someone in his position, having been snapped up by Ferrari when he really didn't look very good and was on his way out of F1.

Another thing, Massa is far more popular within the team than Kimi, he speaks Italian and wasn't forced upon the team unlike Kimi who was chosen by Luca De Montezemolo against the team seniors' wishes.

The only fly in the ointment is Massa's injury, will he be quite as quick when he comes back compared to before?

Kimi Raikkonen delivered a world title to Ferrari and did so when if not for his self-confidence very few drivers would have done so - despite Mclaren doingtheir utmost NOT to win the title in 2007.

Felipe Massa did not win a title and he constantly needs mental coaching from Smedley.

Raikkonen won at Spa, not because of Ferrari but because of Raikkonen.
Ferrari expected what Kimi delivered - a championship.

I doubt that they wanted another Schumacher otherwise they would not have hired Kimi. di Montezemolo knew what they were getting.

There is only ONE Schumacher and I doubt we will see another driver with the ability and drive it takes to achieve what he did at Ferrari.

Prior to his accident, Raikkonen's Monte Carlo podium beats Massa's Nurburgring podium.....!

Since Hungary Raikkonen is the driver that has scored the most points in the championship and won a race for Ferrari - yes indeed definitely a driver to be gotten rid of.

Raikkonen was paid as a champion - that always makes a difference.

No driver is "forced" upon a team by the CEO. He is the CEO and anyone that objects is welcome to leave and should they not perform their jobs according to their best ability they ought to be fired.

So what if Massa speaks Italian or is more popular - that is the absolute worst reason to favor Massa over a driver such as Raikkonen.

The "Italian team" is not THAT Italian anymore, it is cosmopolitan - in the decisive positions it was a German, an Englishman and a Frenchman that gave Ferrari its first title in TWENTY YEARS!!! And a Brazilian and Finnish driver today - get the picture?

And the carbon fiber - dratted American invention and is STILL manufactured in sunny North Carolina and the Ferrari tub was for sometime manufactured in England when John Barnard was there with Rory Byrne - Brit and a white South African.

I think that unless a third car is allowed or unless Ferrari really are prepared to pay Kimi his FULL 2010 retainer as he is demanding then the team will be Raikkonen and Alonso. The Spaniard is not going to hang around a dying Renault team when Ferrari beckons.

The Sucderia cannot take the chance on Massa, if they want to win in 2010.

[Saint Devote]

Because Kimi has been anything but consistent during the last 2 seasons.
Because they will have Alonso on board in Kimi's place, which means a very consistent driver who you can rely on, exactly as Felipe.
Because even if Felipe won't be 100% as good as before, I hope he will be even better, Ferrari will have Alonso plus Felipe or any other young promising driver they will want to give a chance to.
Also why keep pis$ing money down the drain hoping that Kimi will stay awake for the next race?!

Since the point system change back in 2003 consistency is the key to win championships and that's why Alonso will be in a Ferrari. McLaren had him and failed to make it work I'm pretty sure that Ferrari will deal with him differently i.e. won't favor any of their drivers over the other, just like they did with Felipe and Kimi.



AFAIK Mercedes refused to supply Williams with engines so no Hulkenberg to Mercedes powered team possible.

Everything is negotiable prior to contracts being signed - Hulkenberg is a very valuable asset. We will see.

Kimi won the championship in 2007, since Hungary he has been on the podium every race and scored more points than anyone else including a win at Spa that was Kimi rather than the car.

Sure there was a "problem" in 2008 - that is not the past 2 seasons - but sometimes that is what happens and there was enough ink on the subject. It is not material and certainly was not as stated by Luca.

Alonso is not Raikkonen. Kimi does not care who the other driver is. Other than neccessary he has always hardly conferred with teammates ever.

Alonso is a different story. He MINDS who the other driver is and should Massa be his teammate, and be even partially comptitive, he will go out of his ruthless way to crush him in every way possible and we are all aware that Massa is very fragile in the confidence department.

On a driver such as Kimi it would have no effect - he is a man with high self-esteem and absolute self-confidence.

It is not inconceivable that Alonso will refuse to join Ferrari if Kimi is retained - it would be more than likely.

But the overriding question is how can Ferrari take a chance on a driver they have no way of knowing will be okay or not when he races again?

That may well be the reason behind Ferrari's push for a third car to be allowed. But as Williams is objecting, it is not probable that it wil happen.

I do not think that Ferrari will retain Massa as an active race driver in 2010 - they may as a test driver and as an option in 2011.

But then we have a possible objection to Raikkonen by Alonso - Ferrari have in my view quite a conundrum and we go in circles.

Definitely this whole saga is something that may only be decided on January 1 when testing once again allowed. Stupid regulation.

[Malbec]

Kimi won the championship in 2007, since Hungary he has been on the podium every race and scored more points than anyone else including a win at Spa that was Kimi rather than the car.

Sure there was a "problem" in 2008 - that is not the past 2 seasons - but sometimes that is what happens and there was enough ink on the subject. It is not material and certainly was not as stated by Luca.

Thats exactly the point isn't it. According to your example Kimi this year has performed really well when his teammate was unconscious (Hungary) or slow (Badoer, Fisi getting up to speed). He hasn't outperformed Massa and certainly doesn't warrant his huge paypacket. 2007 was a long time ago I'm afraid, and whilst he may have supreme confidence etc etc he has been inconsistent in a way the likes of Alonso and Hamilton, even Massa simply are not.

Your point about Massa's injury and Alonso's mindset are true, it will be interesting to see how those issues pan out, but Kimi is hardly the default choice simply based on his performance, and thats before we factor in things like his huge pay.

[ioan]

It is not inconceivable that Alonso will refuse to join Ferrari if Kimi is retained - it would be more than likely.

Than it's certainly bye bye Kimi, no matter if Felipe comes back or not, as I'm sure that Santander wants Alonso in the red cars next year even if everyone says nothing precise right now.

[DexDexter]

Thats exactly the point isn't it. According to your example Kimi this year has performed really well when his teammate was unconscious (Hungary) or slow (Badoer, Fisi getting up to speed). He hasn't outperformed Massa and certainly doesn't warrant his huge paypacket. 2007 was a long time ago I'm afraid, and whilst he may have supreme confidence etc etc he has been inconsistent in a way the likes of Alonso and Hamilton, even Massa simply are not.

Your point about Massa's injury and Alonso's mindset are true, it will be interesting to see how those issues pan out, but Kimi is hardly the default choice simply based on his performance, and thats before we factor in things like his huge pay.

If you compare Massa and Räikkönen's points tally at Ferrari and exclude retirements for mechanical reasons, they've scored about the same number of points per finished race. So If Kimi is inconsistent, so is Massa. Edit: Obviously the Ferrari car has nothing do with this inconsistency the drivers have shown. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2007
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2009

[ioan]

If you compare Massa and Räikkönen's points tally at Ferrari and exclude retirements for mechanical reasons, they've scored about the same number of points per finished race. So If Kimi is inconsistent, so is Massa. Edit: Obviously the Ferrari car has nothing do with this inconsistency the drivers have shown. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2007
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2009

I hope you included the 20009 results only up to the German GP.

Anyway can you, please, give us the number of points each of them scored in 2007, 2008 and 2009 (up to the German GP) excluding the car failure related retirements (not that it changes absolutely anything ;) )?
I'm really interested to see how they did each of these years and you already did the maths.

[Boudica]

Kimi's performance does not warrant a seat at Ferrari when the Italian team have a choice of him, Alonso or Massa. His performance has fluctuated considerably when it was expected that he'd slot in where Michael left off and be the lead Ferrari driver. It isn't a coincidence that Massa was the lead Ferrari driver last year and continued to be so this year until his accident.

Factor in his astonishingly high salary and no wonder Kimi doesn't look particularly attractive for Ferrari.

Massa is also on a very low salary for someone in his position, having been snapped up by Ferrari when he really didn't look very good and was on his way out of F1.

Another thing, Massa is far more popular within the team than Kimi, he speaks Italian and wasn't forced upon the team unlike Kimi who was chosen by Luca De Montezemolo against the team seniors' wishes.

The only fly in the ointment is Massa's injury, will he be quite as quick when he comes back compared to before?

I often see people mention that Kimi was suppose to be the next Michael and he hasn't performed. Fair enough he hasn't performed. But with more and more news surfacing recently, you can easily start to see why Kimi hasn't performed.

Things works both ways. If they really wanted Kimi to be more like Michael then they just should have made him the no.1 driver. You cant expect someone to deliver in a certain way, when you dont give him the tools to do so. Kimi did win the WDC in 2007 and many people tend to forget that Kimi was still leading the 2008 championship until more then halfway through the year.

You yourself mention the fact that Felipe was the leading driver last year and this year. But from a logical point of view it doesn't really make any sense to stop supporting your WDC, when he is actually leading the championship? Felipe did an excellent job and I can understand why they would have chosen Felipe to be the lead driver this year based on last year's performances. But it is just a strange move to suddenly stop supporting your WDC. As I have mentioned it is true that Kimi has under performed, but you also have to ask yourself what performances did you really expect from a driver that isn't really supported within the team? It is ironic that Kimi is now performing very well since the team have now started supporting him a bit more.

It seems like the Ferrari team have been dominated by politics these past two years, and Kimi certainly isn't good with politics. The problem for the most part is properly just that Kimi doesn't really fit into the team and Ferrari also dont really understand Kimi, thus they didn't give him the necessary support.

BTW Felipe is on a good salary, he gets 18 million a year that is about the same as Lewis.

Mclaren is in an interesting situation, all of the current WDC have driven for them, and they seem to be very interested in Kimi. In fact they have actually been courting Kimi more vehemently then Ferrari have been courting Alonso.

Many of the latest reports are now also stating that Kimi himself isn't really interested in driving for Ferrari next year. I can certainly understand why. I really hope Kimi goes to Mclaren next year. He will properly have a bit more support in Mclaren then at Ferrari, because the team already knows him. Even if he doesn't have as much support as Lewis, they at least both have the same type of driving style, so compromises in setup shouldn't be a problem. It will also be more difficult to use 2nd drivers next year as there is only low fuel qualifying and no re-fuelling during the races. The Ferrari management have also been quite error prone these past two years. Then there is also concerns about Ferrari's fuel economy, and the Ferrari engine might now be less powerful then the Mercedes engine. It really seems like a no brainer to me.

At least it seems like everyone will be happy with this deal, for Mclaren it is the return of the prodigal son. The Spanish and Italian press, as well as certain tifosisis finally have Alonso in Ferrari, teamed up against a fully recovered Felipe. While Mclaren have the dream team of Lewis and Kimi, going up against them! It could all be very interesting next year.

[ioan]

You yourself mention the fact that Felipe was the leading driver last year and this year. But from a logical point of view it doesn't really make any sense to stop supporting your WDC, when he is actually leading the championship? Felipe did an excellent job and I can understand why they would have chosen Felipe to be the lead driver this year based on last year's performances. But it is just a strange move to suddenly stop supporting your WDC. As I have mentioned it is true that Kimi has under performed, but you also have to ask yourself what performances did you really expect from a driver that isn't really supported within the team? It is ironic that Kimi is now performing very well since the team have now started supporting him a bit more.

I don't understand why the minute Felipe started beating Kimi people supposed that it was only because all of a sudden Ferrari didn't support Kimi anymore.
I'm yet to see a proof that Ferrari supported Felipe more than Kimi or that they decided not to support Kimi as they did in 2007.

To me it looked like Felipe started badly in 2008 but somehow he pulled himself together and started delivering the good at an impressive rate.
Kimi seemed to drop the ball around the same time and only really got it rolling again since Felipe was in comma in hospital.

These coincidences in Kimi's performance point, as far as I can see, towards Kimi losing the team mates battle for the first time and IMO this is what impacted his performance.
It wasn't Ferrari suddenly deciding not to care about a guy they pay € 50 million a year, it was slump in Kimi's performance due to him being in a strange situation that of being dominated by his team mate.

Why on Earth would have Ferrari decided not to support Kimi in 2008 when he started the season much better than Felipe?

[gloomyDAY]

Can you imagine Alonsita in a Ferrari?

I hope Kimi gets to stay.


To me it looked like Felipe started badly in 2008 but somehow he pulled himself together and started delivering the good at an impressive rate.Thanks for bringing this point up again. I remember that when Felipe spun off at the Malaysian GP of 2008 that people were writing him off for 3 races without any points. Monday morning after the race Stefano Domenicali made a statement saying that if Felipe wins the championship then everyone will forget the tribulations of the first 3 races. Felipe didn't take the title, but at least most "fans" have forgotten about the beginning portion of the year and remember his dominant streak of the latter half.

[aryan]

I suspect Jean Todt was the man who most wanted Räikkönen at Ferrari. That would make sense since the guy has a long history of working with Finnish drivers.

Yes, Jean was quite keen on Kimi. I remember in a podium ceremony in 2006, where Michael, Filipe and Kimi were on the podium, he called the three of them: "My all time favourite drivers".

Michael apparently also chose Kimi to replace him. I know he was close to Filipe and mentored him, but I'm sure having raced against Kimi for a few years, he respected the Finn. Rather more than Kimi ever showed him respect, unfortunately in my opinion as I respect the great champion hugely, even if I am not particularly fond of him.

Watching this thread, it is interesting to me, that the people who want Kimi out of the Ferrari seat, are mostly die-hard Michael fans, who could never really warm up to Kimi after his move from McLaren.

For me, the record speaks for itself: Kimi is one of the three WDCs in the field, and both, Ferrari fans and Kimi fans should respect what they have achieved with each other, winning 3 championships in 3 years.

As a McLaren fan, I find no prospect more exciting than Kimi joining my favourite team. Hamilton and Kimi, means two WDCs in the driving seat. You've got to give it to them, that's a hell of a good combination of drivers to pair together.

[aryan]

I hope you included the 20009 results only up to the German GP.

Anyway can you, please, give us the number of points each of them scored in 2007, 2008 and 2009 (up to the German GP) excluding the car failure related retirements ?

2007:

Kimi:

Kimi had one electrical problem (Spain) and one mechanical problem (Europe). Not counting these two races, he finished the other 15 races with 110 points, which gives him 7.33 points per race.

Massa also finished 15 races and did not finish 2. Of the two, one was a suspension problem (Italy) but the other one, he missed the red light at the end of the pit lane and was disqualified, so I consider that a driver error. He had 94 points, over 16 races, gives him 5.87 points per race.

2008:

Massa had two retirements. In Australia he spun coming out of turn one when racing Kovalainen, so that's not a car failure. In Malaysia, he spun out of the race on lap 31, without any car failure. As such, I consider that a driver error too. As such, he had 97 points over 18 races, which gives him an average of 5.38 points per race.

Kimi:
Retired in two races and finished 16. Of these, Canada was definitely not his fault, as Hamilton ran into him in the pit lane, so I won't count that as driver error. In the European Grand Prix, Kimi had an engine failure. He had 75 points, over 16 races, which give him an average of 4.68 points per race.

2009 (until the end of German GP):

Kimi: Of the 9 races, Kimi finished 7 and retired in 2. He retired the Spanish GP with a hydraulic failure, so not a driver error. In Germany he had a radiator issue, so again not a driver fault. He had 10 points by the end of German GP, over 7 races, gives him an average of 1.42 points per race.

Massa: Of the 9 races, Massa finished 7 and retired in 2. He had a suspension problem in Australia, so not a driver fault. In China, he had an electrical issue, so again not a driver error. He had 22 points at the end of German GP, over 7 races, gives him an average of 3.14 points per race.

Overall:
Kimi: 195 points over 38 races: 5.13 points per race.

Massa: 213 points over 41 races: 5.19 points per race.

It is very clear that their points per race (excluding car failure) is very very close. 5.19 plays 5.13. Not much in it really.

[penagate]

2008:
[..]
Kimi:
Retired in two races and finished 16. Of these, Canada was definitely not his fault, as Hamilton ran into him in the pit lane, so I won't count that as driver error. In the European Grand Prix, Kimi had an engine failure.

You've forgotten (at least) that he crashed at the Singapore GP. I understand that was driver error.

[aryan]

You've forgotten (at least) that he crashed at the Singapore GP. I understand that was driver error.

No, in Singapore, according to official Formula 1 stats, he is classified as 15th, as he had finished more than 90% of the race. So that's not considered a retirement.

Anyway, 15th or driver crash doesn't change any of the calculations, neither the number of points, nor the number of races counted.

[CaptainRaiden]

Some of the posts have been quite weird in this thread. Do people not realize that Kimi is the only WDC for Ferrari in the last five years? And on top of that, he did it in his first year in the team. Then there are ridiculous claims that he "lucked" the WC in 2007. Yeah, sure, winning the most races in the season and winning the championship can be termed "lucking it". :rolleyes: (Going by that effed up logic, Hamilton lucked it in 2008, and Schumacher in 2003.)

Sure, Massa came close in 2008, but bottom line, Kimi is a champion and Massa is not, yet. As simple as that. Ferrari would be the biggest idiots, wanting to replace a potent championship winning driver such as Kimi, who on his day is unbeatable, and on top of that pay off his contract! :eek: :rotflmao:

Of course there are bad races, but they happen in everybody's career. Nobody is a superman. The 2007 car suited Kimi and he delivered a championship, the 2008 and 2009 cars didn't, and so he struggled. I'm sure that after Massa's accident, Ferrari had all their resources and attention on Kimi and his car, and the setup he wanted. The results speak for themselves. They must be kicking themselves in the back right now, if the Alonso contract has already been signed.

Anyway, at this point of time, if he chooses Mclaren over Ferrari, it would be a very wise choice, seeing that Mclaren have produced a better car in the latter half of the season, and probably will carry that onto the next year. Nobody at this point knows how well the 2010 Ferrari is gonna perform. I say good for Kimi!

[CaptainRaiden]

Than it's certainly bye bye Kimi, no matter if Felipe comes back or not, as I'm sure that Santander wants Alonso in the red cars next year even if everyone says nothing precise right now.

Highly unlikely that in these times of recession, pressure or no pressure from Santander, Ferrari would make the biggest dumbass, brain farting move in the history by replacing Kimi with Alonso, and then paying off his contract for what, $52 million for NOT driving for them, and then go ahead and pay Alonso too! :eek:

Ever heard of the expression: "To chop your own leg with an axe?"

[ioan]

Watching this thread, it is interesting to me, that the people who want Kimi out of the Ferrari seat, are mostly die-hard Michael fans, who could never really warm up to Kimi after his move from McLaren.

I'll only say that one can see the differences between how Michael made history at Ferrari and how Kimi is doing the opposite.
The difference in the work ethic of these two drivers are way to big for Michael fans to be able to cherish Kimi for his lazy approach. I like Kimi as a person with his one liners, but as a professional individual he is relying to much on his natural talent and too little on hard work for the team.
Back when Michael retired I hoped it will be Kimi who takes his place, not Alonso. Last season I realized I was wrong.

[ioan]

Highly unlikely that in these times of recession, pressure or no pressure from Santander, Ferrari would make the biggest dumbass, brain farting move in the history by replacing Kimi with Alonso, and then paying off his contract for what, $52 million for NOT driving for them, and then go ahead and pay Alonso too! :eek:

Let's think about it.
Ferrari operate on a 300+ millions budget. Next season this budget will already be halved. Everything over that is free for management staff and driver sallaries. Looks to me that they have enough money to pay out Kimi's over inflated salary and than anyway Santander will pay Alonso's salary, so the loss is already covered.
Add to this that no one can say for sure if next year Kimi won't fall asleep again for about 75% of the races, meaning that Ferrari might not get much in return for retaining him for 50millions for another season.

Money isn't a problem for Ferrari Marlboro F1, results are what they need, deliverd in a consistent way.



Ever heard of the expression: "To chop your own leg with an axe?"

Never. Is it Indian or Finnish?

[ioan]

Why should it be only up until the German GP? Its not Kimi's fault Massa is sitting the season out.. While he's chilling at home recovering, the stats are racking up against him.. :p

Hopefully you are just kidding.

[ioan]

2007:

Kimi:

Kimi had one electrical problem (Spain) and one mechanical problem (Europe). Not counting these two races, he finished the other 15 races with 110 points, which gives him 7.33 points per race.

Massa also finished 15 races and did not finish 2. Of the two, one was a suspension problem (Italy) but the other one, he missed the red light at the end of the pit lane and was disqualified, so I consider that a driver error. He had 94 points, over 16 races, gives him 5.87 points per race.

2008:

Massa had two retirements. In Australia he spun coming out of turn one when racing Kovalainen, so that's not a car failure. In Malaysia, he spun out of the race on lap 31, without any car failure. As such, I consider that a driver error too. As such, he had 97 points over 18 races, which gives him an average of 5.38 points per race.

Kimi:
Retired in two races and finished 16. Of these, Canada was definitely not his fault, as Hamilton ran into him in the pit lane, so I won't count that as driver error. In the European Grand Prix, Kimi had an engine failure. He had 75 points, over 16 races, which give him an average of 4.68 points per race.

2009 (until the end of German GP):

Kimi: Of the 9 races, Kimi finished 7 and retired in 2. He retired the Spanish GP with a hydraulic failure, so not a driver error. In Germany he had a radiator issue, so again not a driver fault. He had 10 points by the end of German GP, over 7 races, gives him an average of 1.42 points per race.

Massa: Of the 9 races, Massa finished 7 and retired in 2. He had a suspension problem in Australia, so not a driver fault. In China, he had an electrical issue, so again not a driver error. He had 22 points at the end of German GP, over 7 races, gives him an average of 3.14 points per race.

Overall:
Kimi: 195 points over 38 races: 5.13 points per race.

Massa: 213 points over 41 races: 5.19 points per race.

It is very clear that their points per race (excluding car failure) is very very close. 5.19 plays 5.13. Not much in it really.

Now let's compare the ROI for each of them.

195 points for 3x50+millions a year = approx 800000/point for Kimi
213 points for 12+12+18 millions = approx 244000/point for Felipe

My conclusion is that one of them should perform better in order to earn his pay.

Kimi was hired for a reason and he didn't really deliver what was expected of him.
As I already pointed it out I never was an Alonso fan, and I even cheered for Kimi in 2005 when he fought for the WDC against Alonso although I'm really not a McLaren fan. However as a Ferrari fan I believe that Kimi didn't bring what was needed.

[Knock-on]

Kimi has a WDC for Ferrari. That's what he was paid to do and that's what he has done.

Forget some statistically flawed perspective of value because it's immaterial. If you want a monatary comparrisson it is this.

Kimi - $150m - 1 WDC success
Massa - £$52m - 0 WDC failure

Which was the most cost effective?

You guys might not want him at Ferrari but getting him at McLaren would be superb for us :D We're happy :D

BTW, who's picking up the tab. Are Ferrari going to be paying him to race for McLaren ;)

I really hope this happens.

[aryan]

Now let's compare the ROI for each of them.

195 points for 3x50+millions a year = approx 800000/point for Kimi
213 points for 12+12+18 millions = approx 244000/point for Felipe

My conclusion is that one of them should perform better in order to earn his pay.



Fair enough, I see your point. But, Ferrari snatched Kimi from a rival team, of course they had to lure him with a lucrative contract. Massa on the other hand, owes his F1 life to Ferrari. Back in 2002, the only person in the world who would throw him a contract was Jean Todt; and good on him, cause Ferrari is reaping the benefits now.

Back when in 2006 Ferrari was signing the contracts, Kimi had been a multiple time WDC contender, and was recognised across the paddock as a fast driver. Massa still had a lot to prove.

I think it is unfair to hold Kimi's salary against him. It's not like he bargained for the salary himself. These drivers all have management teams which represent them in contract negotiations. Kimi's management obviously had some nice negotiation skills, and were able to extract that salary for him. You can't even hold it against his management, after all, their job is to get the highest money for their client.

Seriously, the way I see it, Massa and Kimi have been very well matched over 2.5 years, and the only argument I hear against Kimi is his salary. You know what? I'm sure that extra WDC championship that Kimi brought to Ferrari (and Massa is yet to do) was worth the extra millions of dollars that he has cost them in salaries. At least!

Besides, Alonso would at least be twice as expensive as Massa as well. He probably will come with a 50 million dollar salary, at least. By the same logic, will you start calling him an underachiever if he doesn't get twice Filipe's points?

[ioan]

Kimi has a WDC for Ferrari. That's what he was paid to do and that's what he has done.

You think he was paid for 1 WDC in 4 years?! Good joke. :p :

That may be how Honda went about with JB, 1 WDC in 7 years or so, but do not delude yourself Ferrari hired Kimi to deliver each and every year, each and every race, and he failed.
If he would have dominated his team mate he could have blamed the car or something, but since the end of 2007 he's constantly been in Felipe's shadow.

[ioan]

I think it is unfair to hold Kimi's salary against him.

I'm not saying he shouldn't get as much money as he can. He could earn double that as far as I'm concerned, as long as he dwarf the grid ever race, or at least his team mate.
However he didn't deliver the goods, no matter how many digits are on his paycheck.

[ioan]

Besides, Alonso would at least be twice as expensive as Massa as well. He probably will come with a 50 million dollar salary, at least. By the same logic, will you start calling him an underachiever if he doesn't get twice Filipe's points?

Yes I will. I'm not an Alonso fan and if he isn't performing constantly he'll get the criticism he will deserve.

[ioan]

It would be a good joke as its 1 WDC in 3 years... :p

He's got a contract with Ferrari for 4 years, FYI.

[ioan]

There was alot of support for Kimi in 2007, but when he had a dip in form last season, people soon turned against him.

Proof needed.

[aryan]

He's got a contract with Ferrari for 4 years, FYI.

Yes, and there is nothing to say that he might not be a WDC in 2010, with Ferrari.

He has had 3 seasons with Ferrari to date, one of which (this year), Ferrari clearly didn't built a championship winning car. Of the other two, he won 1 WDC.

1 WDC in two years is bloody good in my book.

Anyway ioan, we can't seem to agree on this and that's fine. We are just looking at things from different angles. I would have to say though, that to me, the Hamilton-Kimi combination is stronger than the Alonso-Massa combo :D

[jas123f1]

Yes I will. I'm not an Alonso fan and if he isn't performing constantly he'll get the criticism he will deserve.

If Alonso goes to Ferrari 2010, then Felipe’s dream to be a champion has very small chance indeed, and the salary will not be that much bigger either.

Beause Alonso has absolutely no reason to be kind to Felipe – and I would be surprised if he don't get a first driver status right a way.. It will also be interesting to see how Schumi are handling the situation when his “little brother” is not in a first driver position anymore. ;)

Kimi is a Ferrari world champion and that’s what he wanted to be, so he doesn’t care that much if also Felipe would be it, since the team wanted it – he was more a Ferrari driver and making his job. Every one knows that if the team don't make everything for yoy or ih they put you to as a second driver (like Schumi/Rubens) then it's very difficult.

I will follow with big interest how Schumi will handle the situation when Felipe is not as first driver anymore and if the team put their first driver efforts on Alonso.

It would also be very fan if Kimi after that he is kicked from Ferrari, goes back to McLaren (or Brawn) and take the title 2010 with them.. And it’s absolutely not impossible…

So my tip to Kimi would be - stay at Ferrari and take the title 2010 – if they don’t want have you anymore - take the money - then go back to McLaren and take the title with them (as a big thanks for the “fair treat” Ferrari gave you kicking you out) ..

I didn't like Ferrari when they didn't allow Rubens win and I don't like them IF they don't show more carriage today..

[ioan]

Yes, and there is nothing to say that he might not be a WDC in 2010, with Ferrari.

I didn't say that. I just dispute what Knock-On says, that a WDC is all what Ferrari was asking for from Kimi.


Anyway ioan, we can't seem to agree on this and that's fine. We are just looking at things from different angles.

You are right. :)

[F1boat]

As a friend of mine said, it is not wise to take Alonso now. Everywhere he drives there is a huge scandal. A great driver, but Ferrari have to stick with Kimi IMO.

[Firstgear]

Now let's compare the ROI for each of them.

195 points for 3x50+millions a year = approx 800000/point for Kimi
213 points for 12+12+18 millions = approx 244000/point for Felipe

My conclusion is that one of them should perform better in order to earn his pay.


Strange logic here. You're trying to say Kimi needs to approx. triple his point per race to rate as highly as Felipe. Seeing as Kimi averages 5.13 point per race (from above post) I think he may have trouble accomplishing that. But at least we know where you stand.

btw weren't you the one defending RS high salary at Toyota a few years back when he wasn't getting the job done? Talking out of both sides of your mouth again, are you?