Great cars that went backwards

[wedge]

Like the Brawn BGP001

One that immediately springs to mind is the 1985 Ferrari

[Saint Devote]

Did the Brawn BGP001 not win grands prix at the start of the season?

We have just seen round 12 of the world championship - did or did not the Brawn BGP001 win the 11th round? Yes.

Is a Brawn driver and car not leading both championships right now after round 12 of 17? Is a Brawn driver not also in second position in the world championship after 12 rounds? Yes.

Exactly who has gone backwards?

[ykiki]

Ligier 1979

Won the first two races and 3 of the first five and that was it. Only finished 3rd in the constructors' championship - a whopping 52 points behind Ferrari.

[ArrowsFA1]

Ligier 1979
Wasn't there a story about how they got the perfect set-up on that car for the first couple of races, then lost it. Something about a lost fag packet... :crazy: :p

[Big Ben]

Did the Brawn BGP001 not win grands prix at the start of the season?

We have just seen round 12 of the world championship - did or did not the Brawn BGP001 win the 11th round? Yes.

Is a Brawn driver and car not leading both championships right now after round 12 of 17? Is a Brawn driver not also in second position in the world championship after 12 rounds? Yes.

Exactly who has gone backwards?

They won 6 of the first 7 races of the season and then one (and these one was rather lost by mclaren) in the following 5. If we calculate the points the situation would appera even clearer... for some of us at least...

They were dominant the first part of the season and now they are struggling for a few points...

But you may be right... they didn't go backwards... they just moved forward a lot slower then the rest of the teams :laugh:

[SGWilko]

All F1 cars must have a reverse gear, and so can go backwards....

[I am evil Homer]

Wasn't there a story about how they got the perfect set-up on that car for the first couple of races, then lost it. Something about a lost fag packet... :crazy: :p

Gitanes you'd assume ;)

[Sonic]

1995. Williams FW17. Although that may have had more to do with the drivers going mental than anything else!

[Alfica]

1997 Williams - although i think it was more about drivers frankly..
2006 Renault - mass damper ban was crucial for them.

And maybe also 1991 McLaren..

[wedge]

2006 Renault - mass damper ban was crucial for them.

And maybe also 1991 McLaren..


Never did much to stall Alonso off the podium and still gave Schumi a hard time in Japan.

Williams had the better car. Mansell was the better driver though he struggled half the season to beat Patrese and fine tuning the active suspension and so forth to get the best out of the Fw14.

[ArrowsFA1]

Mansell was the better driver though he struggled half the season to beat Patrese...
So Mansell wasn't the better driver :p

[BDunnell]

Did the Brawn BGP001 not win grands prix at the start of the season?

We have just seen round 12 of the world championship - did or did not the Brawn BGP001 win the 11th round? Yes.

Is a Brawn driver and car not leading both championships right now after round 12 of 17? Is a Brawn driver not also in second position in the world championship after 12 rounds? Yes.

Exactly who has gone backwards?

For once, I agree with every word.

[Firstgear]

Any car that wins the first race of the season without winning all the remaining ones.

[wedge]

Did the Brawn BGP001 not win grands prix at the start of the season?

We have just seen round 12 of the world championship - did or did not the Brawn BGP001 win the 11th round? Yes.

Is a Brawn driver and car not leading both championships right now after round 12 of 17? Is a Brawn driver not also in second position in the world championship after 12 rounds? Yes.

Exactly who has gone backwards?

Teams have caught up with Brawn. They don't have the dominance as they did at the beginning of the season.

[Saint Devote]

For once, I agree with every word.

Good - you finally see the light!
:D

[Saint Devote]

Teams have caught up with Brawn. They don't have the dominance as they did at the beginning of the season.

Other than Jenson having led the championship with between 15 and 20 points from early rounds...

Other than Rubens falling back to fourth but then moving FORWARD back to second place.

And Brawn having been in the lead of the constructors championship since the start of the season.

What you state above does not indicate a move back - and in fact at the 11th round Rubens' performance was a move forward to second once again in the drivers title standings.

Philosophically to me, reality and rational conclusion, illistrate vividly no sign that Brawn has moved backwards as at this point after round 12 compared to round 1. And if that is the base then they have actually moved FORWARDS and not backwards.

[wedge]

Other than Jenson having led the championship with between 15 and 20 points from early rounds...

Other than Rubens falling back to fourth but then moving FORWARD back to second place.

And Brawn having been in the lead of the constructors championship since the start of the season.

What you state above does not indicate a move back - and in fact at the 11th round Rubens' performance was a move forward to second once again in the drivers title standings.

Philosophically to me, reality and rational conclusion, illistrate vividly no sign that Brawn has moved backwards as at this point after round 12 compared to round 1. And if that is the base then they have actually moved FORWARDS and not backwards.

If Brawn have moved forwards then why is it McLaren and Ferrari and even Force India have become a threat for race wins now?

In most instances during a WDC fight it comes down to 2 teams fighting and third on the periphary. The differences between the 2 main teams tend to be minor and yet still can finish on the podium.

For example, the last couple of years Ferrari tend to have the better aero and yet McLaren could manage a podium at the very least. In 2006, the Ferrari/Bridgestone became the better package but Renault still could obtain podiums even if Michelin had the inferior tyre.

The Brawn, however, has quite a significant flaw with their car and a podium seems harder to obtain.

In pure speed terms I think RBR can takce the fight to Brawn but seem to cock it up one way or other - be it strategical errors (reluctant to change Vettels strategy mid race), team errors (Webber's pit release in Spa, driver errors (ppor start for Vettel in Spa)

PS.


Philosophically to me, reality and rational conclusion, illistrate vividly no sign that Brawn has moved backwards

Who on this Earth taught you English?

[Josti]

If Brawn have moved forwards then why is it McLaren and Ferrari and even Force India have become a threat for race wins now?


I think what Saint Devote means, is that the other teams have come closer to Brawn rather than the other way around.

[keysersoze]

This is a table of the points through 12 races, and my stats reflect first six races vs. six most recent races. When I say "improved" or "declined" I merely mean that the team in question scored more points in the first half than the second half, or vice versa.

Teams that have "improved": First six races / Last six races
Ferrari: 17 / 39
McLaren: 13 / 31
Red Bull: 42.5 / 62
BMW: 6 / 12
Force India: 0 / 8
Williams: 7.5 / 23

Teams that have "declined":
Brawn: 68 / 42
Toyota: 26.5 / 12
Renault: 11 / 5
Toro Rosso: 5 / 0

It appears Brawn have fallen off from their early-season results, but even so they've been beaten only by Red Bull during the 2nd half.

But if you only count the last FOUR races . . .

And if Fisichella had been in the Ferrari for the last TWO races instead of Luca Badoer . . .

Or, if Massa hadn't been injured . . .

That's the fun of statistics--like bikinis. They show a lot--but not EVERYTHING. :D

[SGWilko]

This is a table of the points through 12 races, and my stats reflect first six races vs. six most recent races. When I say "improved" or "declined" I merely mean that the team in question scored more points in the first half than the second half, or vice versa.

Teams that have "improved": First six races / Last six races
Ferrari: 17 / 39
McLaren: 13 / 31
Red Bull: 42.5 / 62
BMW: 6 / 12
Force India: 0 / 8
Williams: 7.5 / 23

Teams that have "declined":
Brawn: 68 / 42
Toyota: 26.5 / 12
Renault: 11 / 5
Toro Rosso: 5 / 0

It appears Brawn have fallen off from their early-season results, but even so they've been beaten only by Red Bull during the 2nd half.

But if you only count the last FOUR races . . .

And if Fisichella had been in the Ferrari for the last TWO races instead of Luca Badoer . . .

Or, if Massa hadn't been injured . . .

That's the fun of statistics--like bikinis. They show a lot--but not EVERYTHING. :D

What's your favourite type of bikini?

I prefer the 'mumbler'

[jimakos]

That's the fun of statistics--like bikinis. They show a lot--but not EVERYTHING. :D

That's right!
But I think it's better that not have the opportunity to see ALL!
Our imagination works... :p

[Sonic]

That's the fun of statistics--like bikinis. They show a lot--but not EVERYTHING. :D

Give this man a medal! My new fave quote!

[keysersoze]

Then there's the corollary to the bikini quote:

Statistics are like bikinis: they reveal enough to make you go hmmmm . . . ;)

[UltimateDanGTR]

a great car tht went backwards was the morris marina. infact, it went faster backward than it did foward.

oh no, hang on, it was 'great' cars wasnt it.....

[blito]

and your confusing the marina with the allegro which had a better cD factor when driven backwards......

[UltimateDanGTR]

and your confusing the marina with the allegro which had a better cD factor when driven backwards......

indeed i have, sorry about that. But they were both british leyland piles of rubbish, so really, they are both as bad as each other......

[SGWilko]

indeed i have, sorry about that. But they were both british leyland piles of rubbish, so really, they are both as bad as each other......

The Toledo on the other hand.....

[ArrowsFA1]

The Toledo on the other hand.....
Was a magnificent car :D

[Bagwan]

The first car to be made on assembly line , the model T , had a gravity fed gas tank , so if the hill was too steep , it had to be driven up backwards so it would not be starved of gas and stop .

[colin edwards]

What about the 2010 Ferrari? 1st and 2nd in the opening race and only 3 podium finishes since then (so far).

[Old Eyes]

The 1998 Williams Judd, after the success of the 1987 Williams Honda.

[UltimateDanGTR]

The 1998 Williams Judd, after the success of the 1987 Williams Honda.

although you mean 1988, it is ironic that ten years later in 1998 (FW20) that years particular williams was very poor compared to that of 1997 (FW19). and that partially had something to do with a change of engine supply, from official renault units to mecachrome units which were built around renault designs.

[D-Type]

Going back a bit we have:
Ferrari in 1954. Totally dominant in 1952-53 then in 1954 they lost the plot and only managed to get their act together for the last race in Spain.
Cooper in 1961. After 1959 and 1960 they went downhill rapidly.
Ferrari in 1962 after amost sweeping the board in 1961.

[Mekola]

All F1 cars must have a reverse gear, and so can go backwards....
Like Mansell in 1989 Portuguese GP???

[Mekola]

Lancia 1955. They were quick on Argentinian GP to get the top spot on qualy, but failed at the race. Also in Monaco Ascari could have won if he hadn't splashed into the water. And it concludes with Castellotti's "privateer" pole at Spa. After the death of Ascari the team was disbanded and discontinued, and his material was given to Ferrari, who got profit of it in 1956.

[Old Eyes]

although you mean 1988, it is ironic that ten years later in 1998 (FW20) that years particular williams was very poor compared to that of 1997 (FW19). and that partially had something to do with a change of engine supply, from official renault units to mecachrome units which were built around renault designs.

Well spotted! :dozey:

[wedge]

I originally meant cars that went backwards within a season, not one year to the next. Any team can go backwards from one year to the next.

[D-Type]

I originally meant cars that went backwards within a season, not one year to the next. Any team can go backwards from one year to the next.
In that case, Ferrari in 1962 must be a contender - as the in-fighting at Maranello got more intense the car's performance suffered.