Not another one!

[Sonic]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78240

Yet another bland, Tilke-a-drome.

Or if we are really lucky another Turkey circuit - probably with just as empty stands. :rolleyes:

[Sonic]

So thats a no to another Turkey....

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/asia/kic.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/asia/kic.html&usg=__RlgcocQd7-aUnCk0KxFasBbb86w=&h=300&w=400&sz=28&hl=en&start=15&um=1&tbnid=H6CZlGHU14oxaM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhermann%2Btilke%2Bsouth%2Bkorean%26hl %3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

[ioan]

The layout looks great to me! :up:

How do you know it's bland? Did you see somewhere that it has no elevation changes an so on?
And why is Korea like Turkey all of a sudden, and what was bad about Turkey?

[ClarkFan]

The Google post describes a "harbor side" circuit. So unless the area is like Monaco, we are looking at a street track with no elevation changes. And a location 400km from the largest population center in the country.

ClarkFan

[I am evil Homer]

The location is curious to say the least and it looks pretty dull. Turkey and Bahrain both have great elevation changes that make spotting apex hard...this circuit looks pretty flat.

[Sonic]

How do you know it's bland? Did you see somewhere that it has no elevation changes an so on?
And why is Korea like Turkey all of a sudden, and what was bad about Turkey?

Nothing bad about Turkey! I was hopeing for something dramatic like Istanbul but no yet another marina track. YAWN!

[UltimateDanGTR]

turkey is a good track but nobody goes there! I've driven it on racing games, and its pretty fun, especially the quadruple apex 180 turn 8. lots of elevation changes there.

from what ive seen, the korean track is placed by the water, a purpose built place, but it looks like there are houses near some areas of the track, and normal circuit landscape in other parts. in terms of layout, there looks to be some interesting corners, but they are broken up by boring right angled corners. i dont know how the koreans will react to a grand prix there, in asia there are 2 ways: the japanese way-ie very popular, everyone likes it and alot of hype come grand prix time or the other asian way-the bahrain/chinese approach: not giving a hoot about F1.

ive said this time and again though: IMO we dont need another asian race! let alone another tilke drome! Japan, Malaysia, singapore maybe-great. but no need for bahrain, shanghai etc. yawn races (actually alright places to drive, but races are always dull so they are let down by that) valencia, hungbororing, hockenheim-more blandness in F1. take it back to rollercoaster circuits! I long for watkins glen or another great north american track, That new potrero de los funes place etc-Plllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaasssseeeeeee!

[ioan]

The Google post describes a "harbor side" circuit. So unless the area is like Monaco, we are looking at a street track with no elevation changes. And a location 400km from the largest population center in the country.

ClarkFan

Let's wait and see.
As or being 400 km from the largest population center in the country really means nothing when it takes only 90 minutes to reach by train:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Train_Express

I wouldn't underestimate the possibilities of the South Koreans to make this a good race in the calendar.

[ioan]

turkey is a good track but nobody goes there!

It's just this year with the economic downturn that led to a fall of the number of tourists and people who allow themselves to pay big bucks to travel to a race.

[Sonic]

But isn't that the problem? Having tourists at a race is one thing but to require them to fill the stands is stupid. If there is no demand/interest in the general public there is no need for dozens of races there.

[Sleeper]

It's just this year with the economic downturn that led to a fall of the number of tourists and people who allow themselves to pay big bucks to travel to a race.
Turkey has had empty stands most years except its first, a common feature of races held in countries with no motorsport history. We can expet the same in Korea.

Lewis was right in the GP build up, they dont build tracks like Spa anymore, I just wish they would.

[ioan]

But isn't that the problem? Having tourists at a race is one thing but to require them to fill the stands is stupid. If there is no demand/interest in the general public there is no need for dozens of races there.

You think that people from all over the world should travel thousand of kms to attend a race when they can have one at home?

What exactly is the problem with having races in other countries? :confused:

It doesn't bother me at all.

Why there aren't people in the grandstands at F1 races? Because it's too effin' expensive that's why. It has nothing to do with the location.

How many people do you think would pay in excess of 100 Euros to watch a football game?

The sport is overpriced for its spectators. I've been only at one GP in 20 years since I follow F1 at Magny Cours and it was because I was invited by the Regional Council of Nievre. It's interesting to get an idea about the cars, speeds and noise, but you won't get closer than 30 meters to the real thing. You will only see the cars go by in the very same locations and with a bit of chance there will be no action at all at that place (I've been sitting close to the Pit Lane exit) and the only way to have an idea about what happens is to watch the giant screens that are far and few between them and the quality of the image is crappy.
Add to this that you need a couple hours to get to your place and a few more to leave your place! :\

I for one will not pay over 100 Euros for this any time soon, and many others won't either.

IMO the location isn't important, the quality of the show and the price are the reasons that make or brake the deal.

[ioan]

Turkey has had empty stands most years except its first, a common feature of races held in countries with no motorsport history. We can expet the same in Korea.

Lewis was right in the GP build up, they don't build tracks like Spa anymore, I just wish they would.

Were the grandstands full in Valencia? No!
How about Germany? Not this season and not last season either. Or maybe these aren't countries with enough motorsport history?

Why is Hockenheim wanting out of F1? They only need to be in every 2 years and it's still not selling out, in the country with the highest population in the EU?
Also Spa is looking for a deal to alternate with Nurburgring!

Why were the stands full in Turkey in the first year? Because the locals didn't know that they are going to be ripped off of a lot of money and get pretty much less than what they see for free on TV.

[truefan72]

Turkey has one great section but apart from that it is pretty bland or even Soulless IMO...

Lets concentrate on getting America back on the calender and be content with the 4 other asian tracks... :)

there is not one track in the untied states that comes close to Turkey. China and Turkey are the only two tilke tracks that i like. Looks like this new one might be the third. Will have to wait to see it completed ( or in F1 challenge mod lol) to see if I like it.


Yes, I would like a race back in the USA with my suggestion being a new facility built in Miami. But we don't have to have an either/or situation. a 20 race calendar is just perfect in my opinion.

[truefan72]

ive said this time and again though: IMO we dont need another asian race! let alone another tilke drome! Japan, Malaysia, singapore maybe-great. but no need for bahrain, shanghai etc. yawn races (actually alright places to drive, but races are always dull so they are let down by that) valencia, hungbororing, hockenheim-more blandness in F1. take it back to rollercoaster circuits! I long for watkins glen or another great north american track, That new potrero de los funes place etc-Plllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaasssseeeeeee!

sounds like asian bias to me. I think the balance in circuits is just fine. Yes we can bring back a US race, and we should have another South American race, probably in argentina, but I have nothing against asian races. If it bothers you to wake up early in the morning to watch those races,then welcome to my world. I actually like it that way, since it frees up the rest of my day to do other things and/or not compete with watching other sports

[ioan]

sounds like asian bias to me. I think the balance in circuits is just fine. Yes we can bring back a US race, and we should have another South American race, probably in argentina, but I have nothing against asian races. If it bothers you to wake up early in the morning to watch those races,then welcome to my world. I actually like it that way, since it frees up the rest of my day to do other things and/or not compete with watching other sports

Just what I was thinking and yeah I'd like to have all the races early in the morning or late at night!

[aryan]

Turkey has had empty stands most years except its first, a common feature of races held in countries with no motorsport history. We can expet the same in Korea.


Barcelona was the same for years. Empty stands all around. Until, Alonso showed up. It's (mostly) a sell out now and Spain has two GPs, more than Britain and Germany and France and Italy, countries with most motorsport heritage.

Building a fanbase and a heritage takes time, it doesn't happen in a few years. At least Istanbul Park is a really nice track and very interesting to drive. Give it a few more years and it will slowly find its place.

Those who insist that GPs should only be held in countries with heritage, probably only come from 5 countries: Germany, France, UK, Italy or US. If you are a true fan of motorsport, especially open-wheel racing, you would want it to become popular across the globe.

[nigelred5]

Why there aren't people in the grandstands at F1 races? Because it's too effin' expensive that's why. It has nothing to do with the location.

How many people do you think would pay in excess of 100 Euros to watch a football game?

The sport is overpriced for its spectators. I've been only at one GP in 20 years since I follow F1 at Magny Cours and it was because I was invited by the Regional Council of Nievre. It's interesting to get an idea about the cars, speeds and noise, but you won't get closer than 30 meters to the real thing. You will only see the cars go by in the very same locations and with a bit of chance there will be no action at all at that place (I've been sitting close to the Pit Lane exit) and the only way to have an idea about what happens is to watch the giant screens that are far and few between them and the quality of the image is crappy.
Add to this that you need a couple hours to get to your place and a few more to leave your place! :\

I for one will not pay over 100 Euros for this any time soon, and many others won't either.

IMO the location isn't important, the quality of the show and the price are the reasons that make or brake the deal.


Ding ding ding!!!

None of the events are drawing a crowd and they haven't been for a while. F1 sanction fees are killing the sport, especially in this economy. The teams are being forced to cut costs, what about F1 itself? The tickets are far too expensive, no matter where the races are.

I tried to attend the last race at Hockenheim before they tore the real track up a few years ago, when the economy wasn't in the tank. The three day ticket was more than my transatlantic airfare would have been. Then I started reflecting on my trips to the GP in Indiannapolis and how limited my access to the racers I started thinking just as you- there's no way I'm spending that kind of money to see a two hour race.

[Saint Devote]

Barcelona was the same for years. Empty stands all around. Until, Alonso showed up. It's (mostly) a sell out now and Spain has two GPs, more than Britain and Germany and France and Italy, countries with most motorsport heritage.

Building a fanbase and a heritage takes time, it doesn't happen in a few years. At least Istanbul Park is a really nice track and very interesting to drive. Give it a few more years and it will slowly find its place.

Those who insist that GPs should only be held in countries with heritage, probably only come from 5 countries: Germany, France, UK, Italy or US. If you are a true fan of motorsport, especially open-wheel racing, you would want it to become popular across the globe.

I dont think it is good for a sport like f1 to make universal support a primary target.

Why does it make a differance to me whether it is popular around the world? And truthfully we all know that the only reason it is in many of the new countries is because their governments are prepared to pay Bernie the money.

The attendances in places such as China or Turkey is less than they get at Lime Rock for a clubman race.

Japan on the other hand is a true motor racing country and they have had full stands from the beginning in 1976 and Suzuka is a great track - love it!

And has the sport improved for the fans? No. If 1% of fans even get to see a driver closer than the parade lap then that is a miracle these days. And talking to a driver in the paddock for example - nowadays people told that such as thing was not unusual once look disbelievingly.

I do think that certain grands prix ought to have a premium place in the calendar, such France and Britain. And I do place the traditional motor racing countries ahead of new places such as Bahrain - although I do like the track.

I do include Japan as a traditional grand prix because they have a rich racing culture and a fan base that rivals Britain.

I hope the South Korean race is a success and we should let it have a chance - it will become a China or a Japan......

And there ought to be a Canadian and United States as well as French grand prix before any new other race is added to the calendar.

I miss Zandvoort, Osterreichring, Kyalami, Buenos Aires, Watkins Glen [never liked Indy], Notre Dame [a North American Monza], Anderstorp and so on.

But Sepang I think is a great track and deserves to continue....

I guess we all have our preferences :-]

[gloomyDAY]

Boring. Seoul is where you can have a lot of fun.

I guess going 400km south to some rural region with a bunch of farmers is a lot more exciting. The race track is probably going to be another Valencia! Might as well have a race staged in the parking lot.

[Saint Devote]

Ding ding ding!!!

None of the events are drawing a crowd and they haven't been for a while. F1 sanction fees are killing the sport, especially in this economy. The teams are being forced to cut costs, what about F1 itself? The tickets are far too expensive, no matter where the races are.

I tried to attend the last race at Hockenheim before they tore the real track up a few years ago, when the economy wasn't in the tank. The three day ticket was more than my transatlantic airfare would have been. Then I started reflecting on my trips to the GP in Indiannapolis and how limited my access to the racers I started thinking just as you- there's no way I'm spending that kind of money to see a two hour race.

You wish TWO HOURS. These days we are lucky to reach 1 hr 40 minutes and this year the Italian Grand Prix will probably be in the dratted 1 hr 20 minute range.

With tv ads, places like the United States might get to watch 1 hour of actual racing only.

[Saint Devote]

Boring. Seoul is where you can have a lot of fun.

I guess going 400km south to some rural region with a bunch of farmers is a lot more exciting. The race track is probably going to be another Valencia! Might as well have a race staged in the parking lot.

They tried that already in Las Vegas years ago.

It was definitely the worst - even worse than Dallas and Detroit - race track in history. It was a disgrace and the great Brabham and Mclaren designer Gordon Murray refused to attend - well done him!

[ShiftingGears]

Doesn't look like much. F1 needs more fast undulating circuits like Osterreichring and the old Kyalami.

[UltimateDanGTR]

sounds like asian bias to me. I think the balance in circuits is just fine. Yes we can bring back a US race, and we should have another South American race, probably in argentina, but I have nothing against asian races. If it bothers you to wake up early in the morning to watch those races,then welcome to my world. I actually like it that way, since it frees up the rest of my day to do other things and/or not compete with watching other sports

my point isnt about the fact that the races are in asia, its the fact that they are held on annoying tilke dromes and usually not much action takes place. i dont mind getting up early to watch them either, I still watch them on the boring circuits. i watch every single grand prix every single season (with a few rare exceptions). Now, if they built fantastic rollercoaster tracks with sweeping turns like spa etc in asia that wouldnt bother me, id like that. but its the very fact that these new tracks seem to be bland that means i've had enough of 'tilkedrome asia-branch' already. Basically, its all hermann tilke's fault.

[ioan]

I dont think it is good for a sport like f1 to make universal support a primary target.

I suppose we all guessed that after your poor posts about India.

[ioan]

Doesn't look like much. F1 needs more fast undulating circuits like Osterreichring and the old Kyalami.

What about the old Mexican GP?

[ioan]

my point isnt about the fact that the races are in asia, its the fact that they are held on annoying tilke dromes and usually not much action takes place.

Well, apart from the first laps Spa was pretty boring too.
The only highlight besides the straight line passes was when Heidfeld and Rubens overtook Webber on the outside. And we call it the best track in F1.
And I can say that we saw better racing even at Hunagroring and Monaco in the past years.


Let's give this Korean track the chance to show it's potential before trying to hang it.

[ioan]

Boring. Seoul is where you can have a lot of fun.

I guess going 400km south to some rural region with a bunch of farmers is a lot more exciting. The race track is probably going to be another Valencia! Might as well have a race staged in the parking lot.

You've been there? :)

[I am evil Homer]

Weird thing is I thought Bernie had criteria for holding GPs - certain number of 5 star hotels within "x" of the circuit, airport nearby for easier logistics etc.

Guess now his criteria is simply "you got the money, you get the GP"

[Sonic]

What about the old Mexican GP?

I don't think anyone here is saying that all tracks should be undulating and full of blind bends and 170mph corners. What the F1 championship needs is some variation; both in circuit design and geographic terms.

What we have now is a potential F1 calender in 2010 with at least 9 of the 18 tracks having been designed (or redesigned) by the same company, so they share similar design philosophy. We also have no races in the USA or Africa and only one in south America, yet more and more races in the Asian continent - which take away slots on the calender for well supported/attended events that perhaps cannot afford the fees being demanded of it.

[ioan]

I don't think anyone here is saying that all tracks should be undulating and full of blind bends and 170mph corners. What the F1 championship needs is some variation; both in circuit design and geographic terms.

What we have now is a potential F1 calender in 2010 with at least 9 of the 18 tracks having been designed (or redesigned) by the same company, so they share similar design philosophy. We also have no races in the USA or Africa and only one in south America, yet more and more races in the Asian continent - which take away slots on the calender for well supported/attended events that perhaps cannot afford the fees being demanded of it.

So you don't want more races in Asia where most of the Earth's population lives but you want races in Africa where people could hardly afford to pay 10 Euros for a ticket let alone in excess of 100?!

[Sonic]

I would like a world championship. I have no problems with going to new countries and trying to "sell" F1 to new audiences but it has to be accepted when the experiment has failed. Sepang is well established on the F1 calender and yet is still sparsely attended with aproximately 100,000 people over the course of three days, whereas Melbourne or Silverstone or Barcellona do that sort of business on race day alone.

I completely agree with you that tickets are way too expensive (I have not attended a GP since 1999 as a result). If someone (FOTA have been making noises) could get the ticket prices lower then perhaps going back to South Africa or Argentina etc could happen.

[Sonic]

So you don't want more races in Asia where most of the Earth's population lives......

BTW its irrelevant where the greater proportion of the worlds population lives, if they have no interest in the sport - why send a GP there? It would be like taking Rugby to China. Just because alot of people live there doesn't mean that people want to watch/play the game!

[ioan]

BTW its irrelevant where the greater proportion of the worlds population lives, if they have no interest in the sport - why send a GP there? It would be like taking Rugby to China. Just because alot of people live there doesn't mean that people want to watch/play the game!

How do you know that they have no interest in sport?
Even if only 20% of them would be interested it will be more than the fan base in Europe and the US combined!

[ioan]

I would like a world championship. I have no problems with going to new countries and trying to "sell" F1 to new audiences but it has to be accepted when the experiment has failed. Sepang is well established on the F1 calender and yet is still sparsely attended with aproximately 100,000 people over the course of three days, whereas Melbourne or Silverstone or Barcellona do that sort of business on race day alone.

I completely agree with you that tickets are way too expensive (I have not attended a GP since 1999 as a result). If someone (FOTA have been making noises) could get the ticket prices lower then perhaps going back to South Africa or Argentina etc could happen.

maybe Silverstone and barcelona manage that, but look at Valencia and you see they don't manage what Barcelona does because people won't go to 2 GP's per year given the costs and the fan base apparently isn't big enough for 2 GPs.

Look at Germany, 90 million inhabitants, good financial stability and all and they can't pull enough crowd for one race let alone 2 even with 5 drivers in the series!

Take a look at France, 60 million people and they couldn't fill the stands in Magny Cours once per year!

The argument about Europe or the US having bigger fan base than there is in Asia doesn't stand IMO.

To be honest if F1 wants to develop a fan base with people who attend GP's it needs to go to new places as you can't expect them to travel all around teh world to fill the stands at the 2nd or 3rd British GP of a season at hyper inflated prices.

[Sonic]

maybe Silverstone and barcelona manage that, but look at Valencia and you see they don't manage what Barcelona does because people won't go to 2 GP's per year given the costs and the fan base apparently isn't big enough for 2 GPs.

Look at Germany, 90 million inhabitants, good financial stability and all and they can't pull enough crowd for one race let alone 2 even with 5 drivers in the series!

Take a look at France, 60 million people and they couldn't fill the stands in Magny Cours once per year!

The argument about Europe or the US having bigger fan base than there is in Asia doesn't stand IMO.

To be honest if F1 wants to develop a fan base with people who attend GP's it needs to go to new places as you can't expect them to travel all around teh world to fill the stands at the 2nd or 3rd British GP of a season at hyper inflated prices.

I agree two races in one country is a bit much. Get rid of Valencia and we have space for the French or USA GP to return. :cool:

Germany is a special case. The country has MS withdrawal symptoms (an even in the last years of MS the fever had gone), Silverstone went through something similar after Mansell and Hill retired. Attendances dropped and have only returned to 90,000+ with Button and more importantly Hamilton. With Vettel emerging as a super star* perhaps we will see monster crowds once more.

I think we are very much on the same side of the argument here. The main issue is how much money the tracks are charged by the poison dwarf, an article I was reading suggested that Spa required 70,000 spectators through the door just to break even!! :eek:

[ioan]

With Vettel emerging as a super star* perhaps we will see monster crowds once more.

Until they don't drop these ridiculous prices there is no chance. Vettel won by a mile in Silverstone yet at the next race, his home race, the crowd didn't bother to turn up.

As long as TV coverage is much better than what you get at the track why spend hundreds of Euros to get soaked for a couple of hours of counting cars go by?
Either they drop the prices or they come up with something worth attending for the huge entry fees.

[Sonic]

As long as TV coverage is much better than what you get at the track why spend hundreds of Euros to get soaked for a couple of hours of counting cars go by?


No on this we disagree. TV coverage gives you nothing of the buzz. For example my son (3yrs) won't watch racing on TV, but being at the track (Lydden Hill most recently) with the sounds, smells and sights he's happy for hours. Its just F1 thats too expensive - there's plenty of motorsport that at the trackside is awesome!

[ioan]

No on this we disagree. TV coverage gives you nothing of the buzz.

As I said there is little buzz in F1 in seeing cars go by every lap in the same place and all this from a serious distance, definitely not worth the money and the hassle.
Otherwise at an F1 GP all you get is waiting in the queues to get there and out of there and if you are rich enough not to care you might also buy a cap/ t-shirt or scale model at a price 10x the real one.

I've been to races in other series and I have to say that there was much more in it for much less money, like getting into the pits, or on the starting grid before the race and see the GT cars from very very close!

[Sonic]

I've been to races in other series and I have to say that there was much more in it for much less money, like getting into the pits, or on the starting grid before the race and see the GT cars from very very close!

See we do agree!


.....but being at the track (Lydden Hill most recently) with the sounds, smells and sights he's happy for hours. Its just F1 thats too expensive - there's plenty of motorsport that at the trackside is awesome!

Besides I have a cunning plan! When my son's old enough I'll stick him in a Go-Kart. He'll be super quick, get picked up by Red Bull and make it all the way to F1. I can then sit in the pit garages for free! Fool proof! :rolleyes: :D

[ClarkFan]

Ding ding ding!!!

None of the events are drawing a crowd and they haven't been for a while. F1 sanction fees are killing the sport, especially in this economy. The teams are being forced to cut costs, what about F1 itself?
That will need to be negotiated with Her Majesty's Government. FOM's cost problems aren't related to operating costs, they spring from debt service on the loan to finance Bernie's sale/cashout. I believe that the debt is owed to RBS, which is currently a ward of the British government........ :rolleyes:

ClarkFan

[ClarkFan]

I would like a world championship. I have no problems with going to new countries and trying to "sell" F1 to new audiences but it has to be accepted when the experiment has failed. Sepang is well established on the F1 calender and yet is still sparsely attended with aproximately 100,000 people over the course of three days, whereas Melbourne or Silverstone or Barcellona do that sort of business on race day alone.
Great attendance and $4US will get you a latte at Starbucks. Indy got 120,000 on race day in 2005 and was still at 100,000 the next year even after the 2005 race fiasco. (With many enthusiastic fans from Brazil)

What did IMS get from Bernie? The back of his hand.

ClarkFan