USF1 to enter FOTA

[ioan]

Now this is a surprise.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78239

Force India are considering rejoining, less so is Williams however.

[JasonD]

Why is it a surprise?

[yodasarmpit]

I have to repeat Jason's question, why is this a surprise?
A Formula1 team joining the Formula One Team Association!

[ioan]

Because the new teams life has been made extremely difficult by the FOTA?
Because they were happy to be Max's peons in the war against the FOTA?

Just a couple of the reasons.

[Sonic]

And as I understand it KERS is still in the rules next year, only the KERS teams have agreed not to run it. Is that still correct? Could Williams turn up in 2010 with a KERS car?

sidenote; presumably KERS would be a huge advantage next year what with having to lug all that extra fuel weight around.

[ioan]

sidenote; presumably KERS would be a huge advantage next year what with having to lug all that extra fuel weight around.

Not sure about that.

The minimum weight is now 605 kgs and with KERS weighing around 30 kgs the teams had troubles balancing the cars as they went from 80-90 kgs of ballast to 50-60kgs.

Next year the minimum weight will be 620kgs but when you think that they will ned to be running with almost 3 times as much fuel as they do now than they will also need more ballast to balance the cars and they will also have to make the chassis stronger in order to support that extra added weight.

Also best place to install KERS is just in front of the engine under the fuel tank as it is closest to the CoG of the car and thus has less influence on the overall balance, however that would mean having to compromise on the fuel tanks position and increase the height of the CoG which will unbalance the chassis.

IMO it will be trickier to integrate KERS in the cars next year than it is now, but we shall live to see what happens.

[Sonic]

Not sure about that.

The minimum weight is now 605 kgs and with KERS weighing around 30 kgs the teams had troubles balancing the cars as they went from 80-90 kgs of ballast to 50-60kgs.

Next year the minimum weight will be 620kgs but when you think that they will ned to be running with almost 3 times as much fuel as they do now than they will also need more ballast to balance the cars and they will also have to make the chassis stronger in order to support that extra added weight.

Also best place to install KERS is just in front of the engine under the fuel tank as it is closest to the CoG of the car and thus has less influence on the overall balance, however that would mean having to compromise on the fuel tanks position and increase the height of the CoG which will unbalance the chassis.

IMO it will be trickier to integrate KERS in the cars next year than it is now, but we shall live to see what happens.

I agree, packaging it will be very hard, but if anyone manages it they'll have struck gold. An extra 80bhp to drag a very fat heavy car away from a hairpin can't be bad!

[UltimateDanGTR]

Because the new teams life has been made extremely difficult by the FOTA?
Because they were happy to be Max's peons in the war against the FOTA?

Just a couple of the reasons.

USF1 dont mind about that, they've got a multi-billionaire you tube owner behind them! If I remember correctly, USF1 announced their intentions to be in F1 before the budget cap was proposed, I think they were fine anyhow. for manor and campos its a different story, but USF1 didnt need to be pawns in Mosleys giant chess game/war against fota/shot at his own foot

[ioan]

USF1 dont mind about that, they've got a multi-billionaire you tube owner behind them!

Just like Force India, and they still ow money to Ferrari and had their luxurious motorhome impounded in Valencia because they couldn't pay it.

1 billionaire means nothing as he can change his mind from one day to another.

[Sleeper]

This doesnt surprise me as USF1 had made it clear they intended to enter regardles of the rules situation which blew up earlier in the year. If this wa about Manor I would have been surprised as they have made it clear they would rather be an FIA pawn than a manufacturer pawn.

[ClarkFan]

Just like Force India, and they still ow money to Ferrari and had their luxurious motorhome impounded in Valencia because they couldn't pay it.

1 billionaire means nothing as he can change his mind from one day to another.
The other issue is that a billion $ isn't really that much money in F1. Billionaires may own companies that are worth much more than the company owes. But F1 requires hundreds of millions of cold cash every year to fund a team. That is a much higher financial standard. Ask the Midland billionaire who bought Jordan and then got the deer in the headlights look when he realized how much running the team really cost (not to mention redeeming Eddie's bad checks).

Oh yeah, that team is now Force India, isn't it? The circle of life and all....

ClarkFan

[DexDexter]

The other issue is that a billion $ isn't really that much money in F1. Billionaires may own companies that are worth much more than the company owes. But F1 requires hundreds of millions of cold cash every year to fund a team. That is a much higher financial standard. Ask the Midland billionaire who bought Jordan and then got the deer in the headlights look when he realized how much running the team really cost (not to mention redeeming Eddie's bad checks).

Oh yeah, that team is now Force India, isn't it? The circle of life and all....

ClarkFan

F1 is the best place to make a small fortune......of a big fortune :D

[CNR]

Now this is a surprise.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78239

Force India are considering rejoining, less so is Williams however.

Not to me peter windsor is a network ten correspondent


http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16808&Itemid=219

Franck Montagny has been in touch with the new American Formula One team USF1 about a seat for the 2010 season

[aryan]

But F1 requires hundreds of millions of cold cash every year to fund a team.

This would have been true a few years ago, but not anymore.

With limited testing --and next year there will be more restrictions on things like aero testing and wind tunnel and CFD usage-- the cost is coming down all the time. Not to mention the engine, the number of which a driver is able to use for the whole season is set to 5 for next year, from the current 8.

FOTA has apparently agreed (as a gentlemen's agreement) on $100 mil budget for next year, with the budget coming tot around $40 mil by 2012. The team winning the WCC gets $70 mil from FOM. This money combined with sponsorship money, means that it would be very possible for a midfield F1 team to be profitable from next year, and nearly all teams to be profitable from 2012.

The landscape is changing a lot. The days of $400 mil budget for Ferrari and $700 mil budget for Toyota are long gone.

[DexDexter]

This would have been true a few years ago, but not anymore.

With limited testing --and next year there will be more restrictions on things like aero testing and wind tunnel and CFD usage-- the cost is coming down all the time. Not to mention the engine, the number of which a driver is able to use for the whole season is set to 5 for next year, from the current 8.

FOTA has apparently agreed (as a gentlemen's agreement) on $100 mil budget for next year, with the budget coming tot around $40 mil by 2012. The team winning the WCC gets $70 mil from FOM. This money combined with sponsorship money, means that it would be very possible for a midfield F1 team to be profitable from next year, and nearly all teams to be profitable from 2012.

The landscape is changing a lot. The days of $400 mil budget for Ferrari and $700 mil budget for Toyota are long gone.

The budget will never be $40 million, once the economic downturn is over nobody wil remember these budget caps.

[ioan]

The landscape is changing a lot. The days of $400 mil budget for Ferrari and $700 mil budget for Toyota are long gone.

You mean Honda, not Toyota.

[Sonic]

The budget will never be $40 million, once the economic downturn is over nobody wil remember these budget caps.

I'm glad someone brought this up. I completely agree.

As soon as there is money floating around in the industry again budgets will start creeping up once more. I give it no more than 5 years before a 40 million budget sounds like small cheese again.

[ClarkFan]

This would have been true a few years ago, but not anymore.

With limited testing --and next year there will be more restrictions on things like aero testing and wind tunnel and CFD usage-- the cost is coming down all the time. Not to mention the engine, the number of which a driver is able to use for the whole season is set to 5 for next year, from the current 8.

FOTA has apparently agreed (as a gentlemen's agreement) on $100 mil budget for next year, with the budget coming tot around $40 mil by 2012. The team winning the WCC gets $70 mil from FOM. This money combined with sponsorship money, means that it would be very possible for a midfield F1 team to be profitable from next year, and nearly all teams to be profitable from 2012.

The landscape is changing a lot. The days of $400 mil budget for Ferrari and $700 mil budget for Toyota are long gone.

I would also argue that $100M will never be seen, unless teams are willing to fire an entire generation of Grand Prix drivers.

And $100M/year is a lot of money for a "mere" billionaire. Someone with a net worth of $1B would probably only have net cash flow of $50M to $60M a year, requiring our enterprising B-aire to spend a large chunk of their own money unless they find substantial sponsorship. And you don't get to be a billionaire by spending your own money on expensive things - even Mateschitz and Branson are spending company funds, not their own $$$$.

ClarkFan

[ioan]

I would also argue that $100M will never be seen, unless teams are willing to fire an entire generation of Grand Prix drivers.

Driver salaries are not included under the agreed budget caps.

[ClarkFan]

Driver salaries are not included under the agreed budget caps.
Then there were two mistakes in that sentence - I meant to say that $40M will never be seen. $100M actually seems plausible as a team budget, but at $40M F1 would be giving up much of the technical interest that makes races something more than high speed parades. $40M gets you periously close to a spec series budget, and that aren't any single seat spec series that have succeeded as first tier racing series (see the decline and fall of US open wheel racing :( ).

ClarkFan

[ioan]

Force India and, somewhat a surprise, Williams rejoined the FOTA.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78444

[Easy Drifter]

Why not? It easier to fight, or get your point across from within than from the outside.
Who knows how the stucture of F1 (ie the power centre) will develop with the inevitable changes in the FIA with Mad Max's departure (if he really does go) and the seemingly diminishing power of the demented midget.
There is a lot to be decided in the Machevilian world of F1 and right now FOTA appear to have a fairly large say in what goes on. Maybe yes, maybe no!
F1 seems to be a world of its own, only paying lip service to the EU or any other world body when it suits them. If the EU becomes too much of a hassle watch F1 move its operations (ie Bernie) outside of their jurisdiction.
I have in the distant past had to deal with Bernie and Max and I am not sure who is more devious. I was outmatched by both! Enzo F. was more straightforward!
Ioan, I expect you to disagree with me but I have dealt with all of the above, although Enzo only through intermeditaries.

[ioan]

Bernie can not move F1 entirely outside Europe without risking to destroy it and as long as he needs to run races in the EU he will have to accept the European laws.

Williams must have given up on something in order to be allowed back in the FOTA after their recent doings. I suppose they agreed to the 3 cars per team proposal or something similar put forward by the FOTA.

[Sleeper]

^Apparently they were the only team that didnt agree with the agreement not to use KERS next year, maybe thats what they've changed their minds on.

[ioan]

^Apparently they were the only team that didnt agree with the agreement not to use KERS next year, maybe thats what they've changed their minds on.

So now that they were accepted they did give up on using KERS next season?

[nigelred5]

I have to agree with their point though. I'm sure Williams spent a wad developing thier own KERS technology and they would hardly want to see that money essentially flushed down the commode without it ever hitting the track. I'd actually like to see the performance comparison between the electric systems and their mechanical system.

[Robinho]

Williams are keen not to give up on their KERs as they have spent a packet on it, its the only Flywheel system as opposed to the otehrs batery systems, and they want to run it in order to perfect and seel the technology on into the wider automotive market.

perhaps they agreed to 3 car teams in principle to keep KERs? i think McLaren and maybe Ferrari would now not need a lot of persuading to change their minds again, given that KERs is proving rather useful to them these days

[ioan]

Williams are keen not to give up on their KERs as they have spent a packet on it, its the only Flywheel system as opposed to the otehrs batery systems, and they want to run it in order to perfect and seel the technology on into the wider automotive market.

perhaps they agreed to 3 car teams in principle to keep KERs? i think McLaren and maybe Ferrari would now not need a lot of persuading to change their minds again, given that KERs is proving rather useful to them these days

I think you might be right there.
It's either that Williams agreed to the 3 cars/team proposition or they had to give up using KERS as that was unanimously agreed by all FOTA teams.

I also agree that Ferrari and McLaren might want to have KERS on board now that it's finally working properly, or they might know that it's a definite hindrance to a F1 car to have KERS on board and they don't bother with Williams using it as long as they are allowed to run 3 cars per team.