How will Button be remembered?

[Sonic]

If button manages to hold on and limp to the title?

Will it be as the guy who nearly through the championship away?

Or as the man who rose from the ashes of the Honda team to win a WDC?

Thoughts?

[Corny]

Well, Button is not what you call a 'World Champion'.. Not for me at least :)

[F1boat]

Too early to tell. I guess that if he wins it, he will be remembered much like Damon Hill is remembered - as an average driver who used his chance. BTW, I do not agree with this opinion of Damon and respect him tremendously and I will not agree with the opinion about Jenson.
He will be ridiculed if he loses it, IMO.

[Allyc85]

Im a Button fan and at the moment its a bit embarrassing how hes getting away with all these poor results. I want him to win the title in dominant style and not being a bit lucky because the others are mixing up their results.

His form will get better... surely?!

[Robinho]

if he wins, he'll be remembered as 2009 world champion.

if he is to win it he will need some better results between now and then so perhaps he'll be remembered for that. or the guy who won (at least) 6 races - if we were on Bernies Gold Medals he'd only be a race away from winning the title potentially.

is it more embaressing that he is not going so well, or that the 3 chasing drivers have all faied to take the chances handed to them - they must be feeling the pressure too now as they are not doing enough either.

however it ends it will be remembered as a season of 2 halves, first Brawn and latterly Red Bull the class of the field, the second half any one of 10 drivers could win a race

[ioan]

We had others to win it by chance so he'll be remembered exactly like those if he wins it.
There's also the chance that he doesn't and than the memories will be even worse.

[Triumph]

I hope sometime after the end of this season he will be remembered as a world champion.

He is very fortunate to still be in such a strong position after recent results though.

[Wasted Talent]

Why the downers on Jenson??

When he wins the 2009 WC he will be just the same as all other champions.

If he had an average start to the season and won the last 5 races he would be hailed as a great driver, but the other way round and people want to put him down.

WT

[ioan]

Why the downers on Jenson??

When he wins the 2009 WC he will be just the same as all other champions.

Not really, he'll be the same as other 1 time champions.

[Triumph]

Not really, he'll be the same as other 1 time champions.

Yes, world beaters! ;)

[BDunnell]

What a strange thread. How can anybody answer this until the title has been won — apart from ioan, that is, whose sense of certainty about everything I increasingly find a bit much to stomach.

[BDunnell]

Not really, he'll be the same as other 1 time champions.

And I presume those great drivers who never won the title, like Stirling Moss, Jacky Ickx and Chris Amon, should just be forgotten entirely and considered worthless?

[wedge]

Why the downers on Jenson??

When he wins the 2009 WC he will be just the same as all other champions.

If he had an average start to the season and won the last 5 races he would be hailed as a great driver, but the other way round and people want to put him down.

WT

JB hasn't made the most of his car in all circumstances. Since the tyre issues/Silverstone, Rubens has been the better driver.

Far too reliant on his silky smooth driving style. I thought his weaving on the straights in green flag conditions at Nurburgring was quite pathetic in contrast to Rubens who drove wonderfully without having to resort to such shenanigans.

[Rollo]

It could have been entirely possible for instance for Keke Rosberg to win the 1982 World Championship without actually winning a race. As it was, he only won the one race that year, and only five in his career, yet he still is one of only a select few to have won the World Drivers Championship.

If Button wins it then good luck to him. He's won more races in one year than Rosberg did in his career.

[penagate]

Far too reliant on his silky smooth driving style. I thought his weaving on the straights in green flag conditions at Nurburgring was quite pathetic in contrast to Rubens who drove wonderfully without having to resort to such shenanigans.


Both the Brawns were weaving at the Nurburgring and at least Rosberg was doing it at Spa (albeit only on his out lap).

[Saint Devote]

Those who attack Jenson have no idea who he is, the determination it requires to keep going for years in less than good cars.

When Dave Richards managed BAR Jenson finished 3rd in the championship. Now he is with Brawn and is a multiple grand prix winner and leading the championship.

Amongst those that have a great deal of respect for Button is Schumacher. Brawn has come to see who his driver is, not really knowing him that well until this year.

Championships are great attachments to have and most drivers want to win it. But it also does not measure a driver well enough. After all, would anyone rate Stirling MOss less than Fangio did merely because he did not win a world title? I prefer to believe Fangio.

The current era of f1 is extremely difficult. There is greater competition by far than there was five to ten years ago. It has drivers, such as Alonso, who beat the great Schumacher fair and square and into retirement he fled. There is Hamilton with such sublime ability, and Raikonnen who is able to turn it on when he wants to and the cars are more difficult to drive these days albeit easier to operate - a term explained by Huub Rothengatter.

I support Jenson because he has magnificent intelligence and awareness on a track. His driving is so very smooth and unrushed and sure. He is one of the nicest people and epitomizes, as did Damon Hill, that wonderful British "stiff upper lip" attitude.

And after the past years, to have him winning and maybe even win the title, is just so sublime. Even were he not to win it this year, how can people like myself complain?

Jenson is also a great athlete, competing in triathlons and enjoying it. And who cannot but be happy when you see John Button so proud happy as his son wins?

Jenson Button is a driver that is an ideal ambassador for the sport. He carries himself well, speaks extremely well and in that case reminds me so much of the late and much missed by his friends, James Hunt.

Button exhibits the virtues of the f1 racing driver and none of the vices.

And does he care what people think? No. He has ironclad self-esteem. As a Jenson fan, I too care nothing what people think of this driver because those who know Jenson will become fans.

We can do nothing about the haters and the belittlers and all those of the anti-Jenson ilk. And "we" do not care what they think.

We ARE the supporters of Jenson Button. We ARE Jenson's Barmy Army. And we are just so very proud of him :-]

[gloomyDAY]

My hope: the guy who dropped the ball in the clutch.

[Valve Bounce]

Bunsen will be remembered as the latest hot tip for this year's championship.

[call_me_andrew]

He'll be remembered as the guy who will never win (another) F1 race.

[DexDexter]

He'll be remembered as the guy who will never win (another) F1 race.

That is a very bold statement. To me he is another Damon Hill.

[Mark]

He's certainly taking the British approach of winning a championship and doing it the hard way!

[ArrowsFA1]

If button manages to hold on and limp to the title?
Who says he's going to hold on? Who says he's going to limp to the title? We're just going to have to wait and see what happens in the coming races.

Right now he leads the WDC. That means he's gathered more points than anyone else which is, after all, what anyone needs to do. Sure, Button's had some poor races recently but no other driver has been able to overhaul him yet.

How will his opposition be remembered?

[SGWilko]

How will he be remembered? Well, wasn't he the guy who aged backwards....



Oh, no, sorry, wrong Button!!

This thread is banaal.

[ioan]

Those who attack Jenson have no idea who he is, the determination it requires to keep going for years in less than good cars.

But you sure know, eh? Are you his undisclosed brother or maybe his father?!

[Sonic]

How will his opposition be remembered?

Yes thats probably a more interesting question. I the past 5 races Button has picked up just 11 points. Surely someone should have been able to piece together a challenge based on that? Yet he still holds a 16 point lead.

[Sonic]

This thread is banaal.

yet you still took the time to post. Thanks ;) :p :

[555-04Q2]

Who is Button :?:

[Sonic]

Who is Button :?:

Think you're on the wrong forum if you don't know ;)

[ioan]

Who is Button :?:

:D :up:

[jimakos]

Who is Button :?:

Really mate you don't know Jenson Button?
Or just laughing with what has writen before?
If you don't know him don't get again in F1 :D

[UltimateDanGTR]

assuming button becomes world champion, i think he'll be remembered as the guy who struggled in average and below average cars for years, before being given the chance in a superb car, whiping the floor to start with then almost throwing it away as pressure got to him.

if he loses the champisonship, he will be remembered as the guy who struggled in average in average and below average cars for years, before being given the chance in superb car, whiping the floor to start with before throwing it all away as the pressure got to him.

[wedge]

I support Jenson because he has magnificent intelligence and awareness on a track.

If he does have intelligence and awareness then where has it been for the last 5 races?

Why is it Rubens who's on better form and making better use of the tyres and Button has in that time been struggling more?

[stevie_gerrard]

If his form continues and he struggles to the world title, then i guess he will be remembered as a driver who was lucky after a great start. Button won't like that one bit and will want to prove how deserved a champion he is. However, despte the great start, i think hes proved that when he has a top car, he can drive it to victory but when hes struggling, he cant do anything about it.

[Saint Devote]

If he does have intelligence and awareness then where has it been for the last 5 races?

Why is it Rubens who's on better form and making better use of the tyres and Button has in that time been struggling more?

That is a fair question but reflect on the current criticism of Jenson by also remembering that nobody questions the fundamental ability or strength of either Raikonnen relative to his performance in the recent past when a lesser driver named Massa has outperformed him.

Or the same questioning of Schumacher who had a similar pattern of lapse as Jenson during the same period of the season in 2003.

There is generally a double standard applied where Jenson is concerned and in the same way that is not towards Lewis - and even Damon Hill is viewed as less than which is not justified at all.

[wedge]

That is a fair question but reflect on the current criticism of Jenson by also remembering that nobody questions the fundamental ability or strength of either Raikonnen relative to his performance in the recent past when a lesser driver named Massa has outperformed him.

Or the same questioning of Schumacher who had a similar pattern of lapse as Jenson during the same period of the season in 2003.

There is generally a double standard applied where Jenson is concerned and in the same way that is not towards Lewis - and even Damon Hill is viewed as less than which is not justified at all.

Raikonnen never fully adapted to the car last year and was rightly criticised.

Massa stepped up in 2009. Greater consistancy with his driving. He had an awesome start in Hungary and overtook Hamilton on the outside of turn 1. He was a better wet weather driver in Monza and Brazil than he was in Silverstone. And more importantly when he was beaten by Kimi he wasn't picking up miniscule points.

Hamilton's mindset was to win every race and was rightly criticised because he was in the danger of not scoring points eg. Fuji 2009. Even when he didn't have the best car he beat Kovy quite easily.

Hill had the dominant car in 1996. He had a WDC winning car in 1995 should've won it because Williams signed up Frentzen that year.

[Tazio]

How will Button be remembered?


:love: :love: :burnout:

[DexDexter]

If he lets the title slip away this season he'll be remembered much like Felipe Massa, as a nearly man. However both are young enough to correct this state of affairs.... :)

Nobody remembers the nearly men after a while, that's why Jenson has to win it.

[Garry Walker]

He wont be remembered.

[jens]

Those who attack Jenson have no idea who he is, the determination it requires to keep going for years in less than good cars.


Considering, how you are attacking all those experienced drivers in F1, then it's quite interesting that you are defending Button. :p : Surely we could make a similar case to him as GF/JT/NH/RB - been in F1 already for almost ten years and is still thoroughly average, getting beaten by his rather old and completely past his prime team-mate. Has stayed in F1 already too long, won't get any better and should stop blocking the way of talented youngsters moving into F1?

[ioan]

Considering, how you are attacking all those experienced drivers in F1, then it's quite interesting that you are defending Button. :p : Surely we could make a similar case to him as GF/JT/NH/RB - been in F1 already for almost ten years and is still thoroughly average, getting beaten by his rather old and completely past his prime team-mate. Has stayed in F1 already too long, won't get any better and should stop blocking the way of talented youngsters moving into F1?

:up:

[Alfica]

That's a tough one. I will remember him as cool looking chap with really hot girlfriend, who was also a hell of a driver. He has driven some very good races, but he has never had an awesome race, like Kimi in Suzuka 2005, Lewis in Silverstone or Monaco in 2008 or like Michael in Brazil 2006.. So i dont think he will be remembered as one of the greatest champions. I think he will be remembered as a.. world champion. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Knock-on]

At the moment he has a big lead in a car that is inferior to the opposition out there.

The Brawn is a good car in the right setting but very dependant on conditions.

Lets see how the season finished but I for one am confident that he is going to come strong again and finish the season like a fighter.

[gloomyDAY]

At the moment he has a big lead in a car that is inferior to the opposition out there.

The Brawn is a good car in the right setting but very dependant on conditions,Wrong! Rubens qualified well ahead of Jenson.
The Brawn cars are still strong.

This was down to Jenson's incompetence and inability to match his teammate.

[SGWilko]

Wrong! Rubens qualified well ahead of Jenson.
The Brawn cars are still strong.

This was down to Jenson's incompetence and inability to match his teammate.

Or, rather, the dynamics have changed, and where we saw Button great and Rubens useless, now the car suits Rubens style, but not Buttons.

[driveace]

Button will be remembered as an average driver,who was cocky when he had a superior car.But all the time he had a mediocere car ,he complained and retired.Vettel is the aggressive driver,who will take on Button ,just a pity that they will have to turn his engines down for the remaining races.
Even Rubens may take the title out of Buttons grasp .

[Valve Bounce]

Who says he's going to hold on? Who says he's going to limp to the title? We're just going to have to wait and see what happens in the coming races.

Right now he leads the WDC. That means he's gathered more points than anyone else which is, after all, what anyone needs to do. Sure, Button's had some poor races recently but no other driver has been able to overhaul him yet.

How will his opposition be remembered?

Burnt off by bunsen. :p :

[Saint Devote]

He'll be remembered as the guy who will never win (another) F1 race.

Funny - thats what Alan Henry wrote when Alonso left Mclaren. Boy, was he ever so very wrong!

[Saint Devote]

Wrong! Rubens qualified well ahead of Jenson.
The Brawn cars are still strong.

This was down to Jenson's incompetence and inability to match his teammate.

During the 2003 when Schumacher had a similar decline in form during the same period of the season, his teammate was also Barrichello and the Brazilian also outqualified him during that period - was that also down to Schumacher's "incompetence and inability to match his teammate"? Huh?!

Nobody dared use those words at the time - and rightly so because they would have been as dumb then as they are now as far as Jenson is concerned.

[Saint Devote]

Button will be remembered as an average driver,who was cocky when he had a superior car.But all the time he had a mediocere car ,he complained and retired.Vettel is the aggressive driver,who will take on Button ,just a pity that they will have to turn his engines down for the remaining races.
Even Rubens may take the title out of Buttons grasp .

Average driver?

You really have no idea what it takes to win in f1 do you? That a so-called average driver will be highly rated by Schumacher and Ross Brawn as "special"?

That this average driver can dominate at Monte Carlo - have you ever been to that circuit? Two grands prix that I have attended often since childhood are Monte Carlo and Monza - and the tv pictures show nothing about how narrow and difficult Monaco is.

Jenson was a Kart champion, a FF champion and barely had time to race in f3 when Frank Williams signed him - but what do Williams and Head know, huh?

With respect to you, people like yourself that are so ready to rubbish a great driver like Jenson, it will be so very satisfying if he wins the championship because it will prove you as wrong as anyone can be.

Show some respect to these drivers - even the most uncompetitive f1 driver is not "average" by any means.

[Saint Devote]

That's a tough one. I will remember him as cool looking chap with really hot girlfriend, who was also a hell of a driver. He has driven some very good races, but he has never had an awesome race, like Kimi in Suzuka 2005, Lewis in Silverstone or Monaco in 2008 or like Michael in Brazil 2006.. So i dont think he will be remembered as one of the greatest champions. I think he will be remembered as a.. world champion. Nothing more, nothing less.

He will only be remembered as a world champion?

Oh God! - what a minor legacy that is!!!

[Saint Devote]

Considering, how you are attacking all those experienced drivers in F1, then it's quite interesting that you are defending Button. :p : Surely we could make a similar case to him as GF/JT/NH/RB - been in F1 already for almost ten years and is still thoroughly average, getting beaten by his rather old and completely past his prime team-mate. Has stayed in F1 already too long, won't get any better and should stop blocking the way of talented youngsters moving into F1?

I criticise drivers that are not performing and especially those that have been around for many seasons.

I also expose areas where my views have been proven wrong - such as Fisichella to some degree, and Rubens Barrichello.

There is nothing contradictory in my views, your indignation is misplaced.

Jarno Trulli in particular and Nick Heidfeld have done nothing to change my views - maybe Heidfeld wiull deserve a period with a new team but definitely not a drive in a top seat.

[Saint Devote]

Who says he's going to hold on? Who says he's going to limp to the title? We're just going to have to wait and see what happens in the coming races.

Right now he leads the WDC. That means he's gathered more points than anyone else which is, after all, what anyone needs to do. Sure, Button's had some poor races recently but no other driver has been able to overhaul him yet.

How will his opposition be remembered?

Jolly well said. And to have such a lead at this stage is not the norm - it is the exception to the rule.

And by the way I remember well because I was a youngster at Kyalami in 1978 the lead that Patrese held for so long and everyone was disappointed when he went out. He deserved to win - extremely enjoyable.

I was also at Kyalami in 1981 when the FISA-FOCA war was on and three teams amongst them Ferrari did not enter.

After practice I was in the paddock and in was hauled the Tyrrell of Desiree Wilson. Looking at this wreck I suddenly discovered Patrese standing alongside viewing it.

I do not remember exactly what we said but those were special days when a top driver would stand and chat [well sort of] unlike so many of today.

[call_me_andrew]

I'm sure somebody got the joke.

[gloomyDAY]

During the 2003 when Schumacher had a similar decline in form during the same period of the season, his teammate was also Barrichello and the Brazilian also outqualified him during that period - was that also down to Schumacher's "incompetence and inability to match his teammate"? Huh?!I'm saddened by the fact that you think Button's driving is celestial. Fact of the matter is that Rubens and Jenson have the same car and one obviously has the upper hand and by a wide margin. Aside from qualifying in Hungary, Rubens has been able to keep up and beat Jenson during qualifying.

Schumacher has nothing to do with this thread. Let's talk about here and now buddy. You obviously didn't watch Spa because Rubens hurt Jenson's feelings. Look at the post-race interview again, the kid is hurt. Hell it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Rubens got a "faulty" clutch for the race just so he wouldn't run away with a huge points haul.


Nobody dared use those words at the time - and rightly so because they would have been as dumb then as they are now as far as Jenson is concerned.How can I be dumb for making an observation? No need to mudsling! If you don't believe me then just review the previous qulifying results.

I'm just trying to decipher the Jenson fans because they seem to be from a different planet.

[macksrallye]

I wouldn't say Button is a "Great Driver" he is very talented & quick but not "Great". "Great Drivers" are guys like M Schumacher, Senna, Jim Clark and a couple of others. There has been alot of drivers that have showed the potential to be great but never gone on to be great. I think Hamilton & Vettel are showing that potential but we'll wait & see if they are great drivers.

As for Button, he was a really promising youngster but due to various "wrong turns" career-wise & some terrible luck he has battled & his determenation is what has gained him what looks to be a WDC.

[wedge]

This pretty much sums it up.. :up:

Ruben's was getting dragged through the mud at the beginning of the season for his lack of pace and ability to match Button. Now the car has changed it seems to suit Ruben's better.

Its funny that Button has been labelled a complainer on here by people supporting Rubens, when we have witnessed some of the post race melt downs by other driver(s) this season... :)

It's because Button is so reliant on his silky smooth driving style and it doesn't generate the required tyre temps.

The car hasn't changed much. It still inferior in China because of the wet conditions and RBR worked better in those conditions. Brawn still had pace because it wasn't until Bahrain when DD diffusers legitimised.

Button is clearly choking. In Q2 at Spa he was on the wrong tyres; earlier in the year he said he was taking it one race at a time, not think about the WDC but in Valencia he made too many references to WDC and his rivals.

[Sonic]

Button is clearly choking. In Q2 at Spa he was on the wrong tyres; earlier in the year he said he was taking it one race at a time, not think about the WDC but in Valencia he made too many references to WDC and his rivals.

This appears to be very true. Ross Brawn is clearly trying to calm him down as post race in Belgium he made reference to how achieving anything this season has been a marvel, and the WDC would be the icing on the cake. If Button takes the title I believe it will be down to RB's steady hand on the rudder.

IMO if JB manages this years title he will be the better for it and may (if given the car) go onto more titles once this monkey is off his back.

[Knock-on]

Fact of the matter is that Rubens and Jenson have the same car and one obviously has the upper hand and by a wide margin.

:up: Totally agree. :D

Didn't need the rest ;)

[555-04Q2]

That's a tough one. I will remember him as cool looking chap with really hot girlfriend, who was also a hell of a driver. He has driven some very good races, but he has never had an awesome race, like Kimi in Suzuka 2005, Lewis in Silverstone or Monaco in 2008 or like Michael in Brazil 2006.. So i dont think he will be remembered as one of the greatest champions. I think he will be remembered as a.. world champion. Nothing more, nothing less.

I disagree. Button's first win at Spain in 2006 in an average Honda was a pretty special drive. Most people will acknowledge that.

[Saint Devote]

I'm saddened by the fact that you think Button's driving is celestial. Fact of the matter is that Rubens and Jenson have the same car and one obviously has the upper hand and by a wide margin. Aside from qualifying in Hungary, Rubens has been able to keep up and beat Jenson during qualifying.

Schumacher has nothing to do with this thread. Let's talk about here and now buddy. You obviously didn't watch Spa because Rubens hurt Jenson's feelings. Look at the post-race interview again, the kid is hurt. Hell it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Rubens got a "faulty" clutch for the race just so he wouldn't run away with a huge points haul.

How can I be dumb for making an observation? No need to mudsling! If you don't believe me then just review the previous qulifying results.

I'm just trying to decipher the Jenson fans because they seem to be from a different planet.

This is not rugby so you cannot sidestep a tackle.

It has everything to do with the 2003 Schumacher season because he had Rubens as teammate and had similar decline in form during the same period until recovering in the last couple of races.

There is nothing celestial or mystical about my post - just staright comparisons. The problem is that where Schumacher is concerned too many people have a double-standard even where the great driver himself has admitted fault.

As a Button supporter - a proud member of Jenson's Barmy Army - I am used to having to defend the British driver. Thats life.

But the important point is that those that retort - such as yourself - can never refute the argument but immediate launch into subjective emotionalistic attack.

Button is a superb driver and his fans love, admire and defend him with facts and the truth - Button himself would not have it any other way anyway - and upon winning the championship while his bitter detractors convene, we will be joyous in the knowledge that he has won :-]

I would also point out that Jenson has won the most grands prix so far this season - not just one more than his closest rival for wins, but FOUR more.

[Sonic]

I disagree. Button's first win at Spain in 2006 in an average Honda was a pretty special drive. Most people will acknowledge that.

I would. If he'd won at Spain in '06. :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

Nice to see we have such a lively thread; proof that bunsen will be well remembered. :up:

[Alfica]

I disagree. Button's first win at Spain in 2006 in an average Honda was a pretty special drive. Most people will acknowledge that.

I dont think that it (2006 Hungary, not 2006 Spain FYI) was so special. OK, hi did a great job, but i really dont think we can compare it with performances i mentioned above. It was quite lucky win, i would say. I would compare it with Alonso's win in Japan last year - and btw, i think that Honda in 2006 and Renault in 2008 was almost the same story. :)

[Alfica]

He will only be remembered as a world champion?

Oh God! - what a minor legacy that is!!!

Heh, that's right.. :) But i think you know what i meant. ;)

[Saint Devote]

Heh, that's right.. :) But i think you know what i meant. ;)

Will Button be remembered the same way Senna is? No. Actually we have no idea how Button's career will eventually pan out. He is barely 30 years old and could have another 9 years in the sport.

Inasmuch the way too many were proclaiming that Hamilton was the beginning and end of everything is ridiculous. He could well never win another championship for example.

Assessing driver's true worth for me is measuring him against the equipment he drove for a particular team and the competition at the time.

In the period when Senna, Prost, Mansell and Piquet were fighting it was a more difficult period compared to Schumacher versus Hakkinen.

Why should someone rate Damon Hill less than Schumacher during his time at Benetton given both their performaces on track with the equipment given?

It was Schumacher after all that eventually deliberately drove into Hill in order to ensure Damon did not win the 1994 championhip. These days that behavior would have had Schumacher thrown out of the championship and rightly so it was done when he tried a similar dishonest move on Villeneuve who was also beating him for the title.

The judge is still out - but right now, Jenson is the driver that has managed a very good car to a point that he has outpaced all his rivals by between 15 and 20 points with five grands prix to go.

And that to me, with six wins versus the second placed driver with two wins, is a significant accomplishment that had it been Hamilton or Schumacher or Alonso - well maybe people would have screamed - the same criticisms would not have been levelled.

But double standards in f1 are nothing new either and Button is as tough a fighter as they come.

[SGWilko]

Bit of a long shot here....

As an F1 racing driver perhaps???

It's only a suggestion, but I throw it out anyway.......

[555-04Q2]

I dont think that it (2006 Hungary, not 2006 Spain FYI) was so special. OK, hi did a great job, but i really dont think we can compare it with performances i mentioned above. It was quite lucky win, i would say. I would compare it with Alonso's win in Japan last year - and btw, i think that Honda in 2006 and Renault in 2008 was almost the same story. :)

Sorry, I meant Hungary. I still think it was a good drive from Button. Everyone else was falling off the track or racing on the wrong tyres. Button made all the right moves that day to take what turned out to be an easy and good win.

[jens]

I criticise drivers that are not performing and especially those that have been around for many seasons.

I also expose areas where my views have been proven wrong - such as Fisichella to some degree, and Rubens Barrichello.

There is nothing contradictory in my views, your indignation is misplaced.

Jarno Trulli in particular and Nick Heidfeld have done nothing to change my views - maybe Heidfeld wiull deserve a period with a new team but definitely not a drive in a top seat.

Button isn't performing (at least lately, but also for instance in 2008) and has been around for many years as well. And the same Trulli you dislike so much pretty much matched Button back in 2002 performance-wise.

All in all. Button is a good driver, but that "smooth style" that at times gets hyped, is IMO his exact main weakness. It has its own strengths (consistency, tyre conserving in hot conditions), but whenever I see JB posting a laptime, I can't help but feel that there is a fraction left in car's potential. And in cool conditions this style is really disadvantageous. I have seen no-one else zigzagging during races to try to get heat into the tyres as much as Button. And this has applied to previous seasons too.

[keysersoze]

I have seen no-one else zigzagging during races to try to get heat into the tyres as much as Button. And this has applied to previous seasons too.

The BMWs at Spa

[jens]

The BMWs at Spa

Yes, but that's the only occasion I can remember in their case. ;) In Button's case I can recall multiple zigzaggings already in 2006.

[Andy Harrison]

Providing he can get some decent results in the last few races no one will remember his poor stint in the middle. He has had a bad run but I think he is still going to be remembered as the guy who rose from the ashes of the Honda team!

Come on Jenson!!!

[Wasted Talent]

Yes, but that's the only occasion I can remember in their case. ;) In Button's case I can recall multiple zigzaggings already in 2006.

At least he has the brains to realise he needs heat in the tyres AND do something about it............

WT

[ioan]

At least he has the brains to realise he needs heat in the tyres AND do something about it............


I bet the others don't wave because they didn't realize it yet so maybe Button should be proposed for the Nobel prize of Physics.

[Saint Devote]

At least he has the brains to realise he needs heat in the tyres AND do something about it............

WT

Totally ignored are Jenson's virtues as a driver.

The focus by many on a difficult period that MOST drivers - even the great Schumacher - encounter during the gruelling slog of a championship year and magnifying it holds attention.

I remember how people used to fix attention on how James Hunt would attend a press a conference barefoot, in shorts, unshaven after a night of partying and "enjoying a companion" overnight :D

Then he won the championship and people wondered why he paid no more attention to them.

I have never figured whether it was resentment or jealously and the same goes for the attitudes towards Jenson.

Many people were so upset that Jenson at 23 was living a life that too many people hanker after yet do nothng to try and attain. He was critized and when the contract issue exploded, his career was pronounced dead.

People cannot move beyond that point.

The comparison is, that with Rubens as teammate, Schumacher went through a similar period during 2003, including being outqualified and outraced by the Brazilian perrenial. Then with several races left, Schumacher came alive and began to win.

But at no time, was Schumacher treated like Jenson is at times by those such as the commentating team of Speed Channel during a grand prix weekend.

How about people recognizing what Jenson has achieved and viewing it from an honest and sublime perspective? I guess that is too much for anyone but his loyal fans. :D

[keysersoze]

Jenson isn't a multiple WDC like Michael was in '03, and the Brit hasn't proven he can take the pressure of being a championship frontrunner.

The indignation for Jenson not being given the same benefit of the doubt given MD is unfounded, Saint Devote, IMO.

Having said that, I do think that Button has enough experience, pace, and savvy to pull himself out of this slump. This is aided by my belief that Brawn GP's chief early-season rival, Red Bull, will be fighting with not two, but 8-10 cars at each race just to get a top-5 result, so catching up with Brawn will take some time. I truly think that the only team incapable of scoring at the moment is Toro Rosso (and Nakajima), and that the rest are capable of top 5s. There are perhaps five teams (and Rosberg) capable of winning any given race.

I won't be over-the-moon if JB wins it all, but I certainly feel he'd a worthy champion. I'd love for Rubens to continue his run of good results and cut the deficit to his teammate, for Mark to get another win, and for Fisi to finish off his career with a win for Ferrari.

[Saint Devote]

Jenson isn't a multiple WDC like Michael was in '03, and the Brit hasn't proven he can take the pressure of being a championship frontrunner.




That a driver is treated properly is not dependent on their titles, it is common decency.

But anyone believing that someone in Button's position between the end of last season and the winning of the Australian Grand Prix entailed no pressure is being disingenuous over the matter.

And who says the pressure issue is accurate? That may be the opinion of some, including Ferrari's second driver, Massa, now pontificating from his pad in Brazil, but that is all it is.

That Schumacher, a multiple world champion, had a decline in form in 2003 where Barrichello whupped his chops, in fact ought to be considered an even greater issue, yet, nobody said a word.

I realize it was different times and in certain cases had Schumacher behaved today as he did then - such as knocking Hill and then Villeneuve off the road in order to try and win, he would have been permanently banned from the f1 championship not merely suffered the disgrace of being thrown out of the 1997 season.

[keysersoze]

That Schumacher, a multiple world champion, had a decline in form in 2003 where Barrichello whupped his chops, in fact ought to be considered an even greater issue, yet, nobody said a word.

Perhaps not up to his gaudy standards, but in 2003 MS did win 6 races, Rubens two, one of them being the final race as Schumacher just needed to finish in the points.
Moreover, there was a bit more parity than F1 had been accustomed to, with eight different winners that season.

Then there was the introduction of the new scoring system, which made it extremely difficult for a driver who wins races to pull away in the championship (look at situation now--Vettel has only two, Rubens just one, yet Buttons with 6 wins holds a tenuous lead).

Poles? 5-3 in Michael's favor.

Schumacher outpointed Rubens by 25, which under the circumstances noted above, should be deemed decisive.

"Whupped his chops" is a ridiculous overstatement.

[wedge]

At least he has the brains to realise he needs heat in the tyres AND do something about it............

WT

And they still don't work. He qualified 14th at Spa.

[Valve Bounce]

At least he has the brains to realise he needs heat in the tyres AND do something about it............

WT

That was because bunsen didn't have enough gas to heat the tyres. :p :

[Roamy]

He will be remember as a "Kidney Pie" who drove a Villeneuve developed car to the WDC.

[jens]

To me Button's title would remind most of Hunt's. James had only one realistic shot at the championship in his career and with the help of 'circumstances' managed to turn into his favour. He was also a bit fortunate to get into a top team/car for 1976. But after that year he started a downslide together with his team. I suspect 2009 will remain as Button's best ever title chance as well.

[Daika]

When did he died? I am in shock!!

[Knock-on]

When did he died? I am in shock!!

:laugh: You would think so by some of the obituries on here :laugh:

He has 6 wins this year, 4 more than any other driver and is leading the championship by 14 points with 4 races to go. That means on average he has outscored his team mate by over a point a race and with the pathetic points system where the biggest difference is 2 points for a place, thats pretty good.

He can wrap the championship up with 2 races to spare when the last 2 championships have come down to a point and if we were using Bernies stupic Medal system would have virtually won the season already unless either Vettel or Rubens win all remaining races. (Unlikely :rolleyes: )

Yet people are putting him down.

WTF else must he do? Walk on water while turning it into wine???

[555-04Q2]

Yet people are putting him down.

WTF else must he do? Walk on water while turning it into wine???

Knockie I think the problem is he hasnt really raced well the last few races. He really should have closed out the championship by now. That is probably what people are unhappy about, myself included.

Now his pensioner teamate seems to have the better of him of late. The WDC aint won yet I'm afraid.

[wedge]

Yet people are putting him down.

WTF else must he do? Walk on water while turning it into wine???

Button is back but dropped points because Rubens was the better driver again.

The best way for Button to silence his critics is to win again.

[Robinho]

i don't understand why when Button was winning it was luck and a conspiracy against Rubens, yet now when Rubens it having the best of it, its all down to Rubens being the better driver.

isn't it just possible that Button drove better and quicker for the first part of the season, and now Rubens is getting the best out of the car and picking up some results - that hardly reflects badly on either of them!?

if he hangs on and outscores Rubens (and scores more wins) then i'd say he's a deserving champion, equally if Rubens comes back then he's the one who on balance has had the better season. If Rubens were fighting any other driver on the grid for the title i think i'd be rooting for him every step, however in this case i'm firmly in Camp Button (that sounds wrong, but you know what i mean, eh Flav?!)

i'd certainly expect Jenson to outscore Rubens at least once in the last 4 and probably be pretty damn close at the other 3, on ultimate pace the 2 are incredibly closely matched and have been all year

[Knock-on]

Knockie I think the problem is he hasnt really raced well the last few races. He really should have closed out the championship by now. That is probably what people are unhappy about, myself included.

Now his pensioner teamate seems to have the better of him of late. The WDC aint won yet I'm afraid.

Oh come on mate. Rubens may have plenty of experience but can you really claim he's not racing out of his socks at the moment. He's almost peerless and credit to Button for sticking with him. The last few races have suited Rubens especially Monza which he excells at. Now I expect to see Button come back strong and finish the championship with a bang.

Lets not forget, it's easier to chase than lead. Look at the lead Lewis threw away when he practically had the championship wrapped up.

I predict Jenson will not make the same mistake.

[Wasted Talent]

i don't understand why when Button was winning it was luck and a conspiracy against Rubens, yet now when Rubens it having the best of it, its all down to Rubens being the better driver.

isn't it just possible that Button drove better and quicker for the first part of the season, and now Rubens is getting the best out of the car and picking up some results - that hardly reflects badly on either of them!?

if he hangs on and outscores Rubens (and scores more wins) then i'd say he's a deserving champion, equally if Rubens comes back then he's the one who on balance has had the better season. If Rubens were fighting any other driver on the grid for the title i think i'd be rooting for him every step, however in this case i'm firmly in Camp Button (that sounds wrong, but you know what i mean, eh Flav?!)

i'd certainly expect Jenson to outscore Rubens at least once in the last 4 and probably be pretty damn close at the other 3, on ultimate pace the 2 are incredibly closely matched and have been all year

100% agree........

WT

[Wasted Talent]

And they still don't work. He qualified 14th at Spa.

....and in Italy?

WT

[F1boat]

i don't understand why when Button was winning it was luck and a conspiracy against Rubens, yet now when Rubens it having the best of it, its all down to Rubens being the better driver.

isn't it just possible that Button drove better and quicker for the first part of the season, and now Rubens is getting the best out of the car and picking up some results - that hardly reflects badly on either of them!?


I agree. Both are very good drivers and deserve to win the championship, I will cheer and mourn for either of them...

[wedge]

i don't understand why when Button was winning it was luck and a conspiracy against Rubens, yet now when Rubens it having the best of it, its all down to Rubens being the better driver.

Well I certainly never said that.

Button got the done job done in the first 6 races so hats off to him and there's certainly no conspiracy against Rubens. Button made things happen eg. strategy change mid race in Spain during that period and Rubens was looking at the wrong things eg. gambling/sticking with 3-stoppers in Spain and Bahrain.

The problem I have with Button is that when Brawn didn't have the car, Rubens has arguably been the better driver.


....and in Italy?

WT

I'm in two minds.

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134997

[Knock-on]

There is one thing you are omitting Wedgey my old treacle.

Rubins is a lot more choppy and overdriveing is his style. He hangs it out a bit like Lewis which stresses everything a bit more than Button who is a lot smoother.

This has been Buttons downfall as he just cannot get the tyres to work at colder venues where Rubens can. If anything this is a weakness as Jenson and the team should have figured out how to set the car up to stress the tyres more and get them in an optimum window.

I don't buy into this theory that Jenson had half the Summer off but think he just struggled a bit more than Rubens in the colder climates.

With the last few races, I expect him back on top.

[race_director]

Those who attack Jenson have no idea who he is, the determination it requires to keep going for years in less than good cars.



We ARE the supporters of Jenson Button. We ARE Jenson's Barmy Army. And we are just so very proud of him :-]

U are really a saint :)

for me jenson is another normal driver in f1, who can win only when the car is miles ahead of other's . in short he is another lewis. a overated driver who forgot his balls of steel

[Dave B]

WTF else must he do? Walk on water while turning it into wine???
Someone would start a thread saying "Button can't swim" :dozey:

[AndyL]

Rubins is a lot more choppy and overdriveing is his style. He hangs it out a bit like Lewis which stresses everything a bit more than Button who is a lot smoother.

This has been Buttons downfall as he just cannot get the tyres to work at colder venues where Rubens can. If anything this is a weakness as Jenson and the team should have figured out how to set the car up to stress the tyres more and get them in an optimum window.

I agree, they ought to have figured out how set the car up to deal with this. Perhaps they have - Button intimated in an interview at the weekend that they'd fixed the problem. Well, actually I think he said something like "we don't have a problem any more" which might just mean they're expecting the remaining races to be hot ones :)

Swings and roundabouts though... in Monaco Jenson made his soft tyres last longer than Rubens was able to.

[F1boat]

for me jenson is another normal driver in f1... another lewis

LOL, that was great compliment :)

[UltimateDanGTR]

U are really a saint :)

for me jenson is another normal driver in f1, who can win only when the car is miles ahead of other's . in short he is another lewis. a overated driver who forgot his balls of steel

yes yes, lewis is very normal, only being the most exciting driver on track, on good days the fastest, always doing something interesting, brilliant in the wet, defending world champion, for most of the season beating fernando alonso in 2007-his debut year, and has the balls to push right to the very end on the limit, and then going over it in monza. very very normal lewis hamilton. definatly.

sarcasm over, i really dont understand your point. id agree jenson needs a great car to be brilliant, but how is that like lewis hamilton? His car was dialed up well hungary for example, but i dont think it was THE best car on the grid. he was best of the restbehind the brawns in Monza for 52.4 laps, which i believe the force india and ferrari were better on the day. so lewis is good in a good car, brilliant in a championship worthy car, and you cant blame him for results when his car was a dog.

I really dont understand how lewis is overrated, and how you can compare jensons faults with lewis hamiltons. Please explain your opinion?

[ioan]

Someone would start a thread saying "Button can't swim" :dozey:

Sure he can't! Did you ever see someone swimming in wine?! :p :
I wonder how long because they start zigzagging. :D

[Robinho]

Sure he can't! Did you ever see someone swimming in wine?! :p :
I wonder how long because they start zigzagging. :D

i know your only joking but he can pull off a 2 (and a bit) hr Full length (olympic) Triathlon, so he ought to be pretty handy in the water ;)

[ioan]

i know your only joking but he can pull off a 2 (and a bit) hr Full length (olympic) Triathlon, so he ought to be pretty handy in the water ;)

Maybe he used a swimming ring?! ;)

[Saint Devote]

Which driver these days does not require a good car to be brilliant?

How brilliant has Hamilton been this year at Monte Carlo or Monza?

And at Monte Carlo why don't y'all ask Rubens how incredible the pole lap was? He stated his amazement.

And the win by Jenson? You think that driving at Monte Carlo - wheel perfect - and winning the race at a standard equal to those considered the greatest in this sport is easy or was easy even for Senna?. When Hamilton won in 2008 he HIT the barrier and was saved by the rain - not a wheel perfect win.

Why do I concentrate on Monte Carlo? Because anyone that has been to that grand prix can only be considered mentally challeneged if they consider any driver that is the quickest there or wins there is only in the position because "he has a good car".

How does any driver win in a bad car anyway? Huh? Huh?!!
And even the best car requires a good driver to make it work.

Jenson has been around a long time. He has driven bad cars for a long time - yet Schumacher, Richards and now Brawn all rate him very highly.

But Jenson drives for himself. He has many appreciative fans that have supported him through his disappointments and successes.

To the detractors - YOUR view is irrelevant because you will never accept Jenson.

Others that appreciate a good driver will be applauding him - and of course his supporters will always be there.

Win the championship for yourself Jenson and your team - your supporters will be right there cheering you on and enjoying the success that you have worked so hard to achieve and has taken so long.

Lets go Jenson!!!!

[ioan]

To the detractors - YOUR view is irrelevant because you will never accept Jenson.


I'll just say that ''YOUR view is irrelevant because you will never accept'' x, y or z.

[Valve Bounce]

I'll just say that ''YOUR view is irrelevant because you will never accept'' x, y or z.

Common ioan, be fair - you thought bunsen was a kerbstone, and I thought he was slower than a kerbstone. :p :

I think that there were several things which affected the cars speed and fortunes this year. Initially it was the diffusers and the Mercedes engines. Then Red Bull had their chassis going great. Then the latter's engines are no bloody good, then the Brawns get their act together again.

Who knows? I think the tyres, driving styles, and courses might be the difference. Rubens is going great guns, and so is bunsen; but Rubens has a possible issue with his gearbox, so who knows what will happen.

[Roamy]

He will be remember as the guy who held the "lap dog" too long and collected a "steamer" instead of the trophy! :)

[wedge]

There is one thing you are omitting Wedgey my old treacle.

Rubins is a lot more choppy and overdriveing is his style. He hangs it out a bit like Lewis which stresses everything a bit more than Button who is a lot smoother.

This has been Buttons downfall as he just cannot get the tyres to work at colder venues where Rubens can. If anything this is a weakness as Jenson and the team should have figured out how to set the car up to stress the tyres more and get them in an optimum window.

I don't buy into this theory that Jenson had half the Summer off but think he just struggled a bit more than Rubens in the colder climates.

With the last few races, I expect him back on top.

As Jens said earlier, Button is far too reliant on his smooth style.

A good article regarding contrasting set ups and driving styles:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8254706.stm


"Rubens has a fantastic understanding of what makes a car work, better than any other driver I've seen," conceded Button, "and quite often that has helped me.

[Dave B]

He will be remember as a "Kidney Pie" who drove a Villeneuve developed car to the WDC.
Come on now, your defence of JV is admirable but to suggest that his development is in any way responsible for anything whatsoever to do with the 2009 car is pure fantasy. :laugh:

[555-04Q2]

Oh come on mate. Rubens may have plenty of experience but can you really claim he's not racing out of his socks at the moment. He's almost peerless and credit to Button for sticking with him. The last few races have suited Rubens especially Monza which he excells at. Now I expect to see Button come back strong and finish the championship with a bang.

Lets not forget, it's easier to chase than lead. Look at the lead Lewis threw away when he practically had the championship wrapped up.

I predict Jenson will not make the same mistake.

Yes Ruby baby is driving bloody well at the moment, but if Jenson is as good as some claim he is, he really should be beating his older teamate. His last 5 races havent endeared him to the F1 fans. In the last few races he has been rather out of sorts, besides the Italian GP.

On the subject of Lewis, he was a 22 year old rookie when he threw the WDC away, jenson has been in F1 for a loooong time now and really should have been doing better mid season than he has. But he still has a great chance of winning this years WDC :)

[Saint Devote]

I'll just say that ''YOUR view is irrelevant because you will never accept'' x, y or z.

Excellent! I have really hit a nerve with you.... :vader:

Jenson is going to win - and there is NOTHING you can do about it!!

[Knock-on]

I had just read that article and was going to post it on here :D

Interesting about brakes and ride height. Just goes to show how small are the differences that have such huge effects.

[Saint Devote]

Yes Ruby baby is driving bloody well at the moment, but if Jenson is as good as some claim he is, he really should be beating his older teamate. His last 5 races havent endeared him to the F1 fans. In the last few races he has been rather out of sorts, besides the Italian GP.

On the subject of Lewis, he was a 22 year old rookie when he threw the WDC away, jenson has been in F1 for a loooong time now and really should have been doing better mid season than he has. But he still has a great chance of winning this years WDC :)

What fans? Jenson fans tend to be loyal auld sunne!

And if you question Jenson's ability relative to Rubens - then you have to do the same with Michael Schumacher in 2003 when Rubens did the same to him in the third quarter of the season.

Where have you been? Hamilton was trained to climb into the Mclaren - a competitive car. He is good - but you cannot compare their careers.

Look back when David Richards headed BAR - Jenson finished the season thrid in the championship only behind the dominant Ferraris!

[ioan]

Excellent! I have really hit a nerve with you.... :vader:

Jenson is going to win - and there is NOTHING you can do about it!!

:rotflmao:
You really think I care?! :rotflmao:

It rather looks like a hit a nerve with you. :D

[markabilly]

right now, it is beginning to look like Button will be remembered as Ruben's lap dog

[F1boat]

I think that we have to wait and see about that, markability.

[Roamy]

Come on now, your defence of JV is admirable but to suggest that his development is in any way responsible for anything whatsoever to do with the 2009 car is pure fantasy. :laugh:

Well the thread was getting boring so I had to "S t r e t c H" :)