donkey of the race

[truefan72]

1 kimi
-unfair advantage gained by going off the track completely
- causing the incident at les combs which took out trulli and created the problems behind

2. Webber - too many blocking moves for my liking
3. Grosjean- just a boneheaded drive. everyone had to slow done and he just piledrived into button and alguesari, who in turn took out Hamilton

[ShiftingGears]

Red Bull lollipop man.

[keysersoze]

I'd like to throw Rubens in the mix for a start that may well lose him the WDC.

When I saw Grosjean punt Button I immediately thought of his wild accident at Monaco this year in GP2

[Dave B]

Looks like Grosjean but I'd need to see a better replay.

Donkey of the season: whoever decided that wheel spinners were a good idea.

[Tazio]

Fisi for saying six times in the post race interview that he was faster than Kimi, or could have beat him!
Very classy :down:

[truefan72]

Red Bull lollipop man.

yep him too, sorry forgot about that.

That was a killer for webber

[ioan]

FIA stewards, or should I say Bernie?
Than you have the RedBull and Renault pit crews.

[F1boat]

Romain.

[ShiftingGears]

Than you have the RedBull and Renault pit crews.

It looked to me as if the 35 second Renault pitstop had more to do with the wheel being damaged from Alonso's first corner contact than a pit crew blunder.

[HenryM]

Grosjean

Barrichello deserve mention for his problem at the start again, but apart from that he was ok and was lucky to finish the race.

[wedge]

Badoer, Kazuki, Grosjean

[Robinho]

Grosjean, and the general rule makers for encouraging rookies to join the track mid season with no testing and then having them crashing into championship contenders.

Badoer for being so far behind (but not lapped!), a good 30 secs down on the car ahead and who won? - his teammate.

can't give it to Renault pit crew as it was clear, and explained several times that Alsono ran over Sutils front wing in the first corner and damaged the wheel spinner and fixing mechanism

[UltimateDanGTR]

grosjean-his talent deserted him and so did his brain, taking out a championship contender, a current world champion and a fellow rookie. (graned last 2 he didnt hit, but basically caused their retirement, although algesuari was stupid as well IMO)

[harsha]

Badoer...for being the only driver i can remember who finished almost a lap down without any technical problems/penalties when the team-mate won the race...

[ioan]

Badoer...for being the only driver i can remember who finished almost a lap down without any technical problems/penalties when the team-mate won the race...

yep! :\

[Ent]

I was going to give to the RedBull lollipop guy too, but you're right, Badoer really has been bad.

[Dave B]

I just can't give the award to Badoer, it feels like kicking a man when he's down. I actually feel for the guy: he's no donkey, just totally and utterly out of his depth.

[harsha]

I just can't give the award to Badoer, it feels like kicking a man when he's down. I actually feel for the guy: he's no donkey, just totally and utterly out of his depth.

what it's effectively proved is that ferrari can't think with their brains...you need to be able to think dispassionately and LdM is to blame entirely for this blunder...

on another thought,Jarno Trulli's contract with Toyota is off...why not him @ ferrari,he's fast,he's willing(def more willing than he'd be @ somewhere he's not wanted)

[wedge]

he's no donkey, just totally and utterly out of his depth.

Perfect A1GP material

[harsha]

Perfect A1GP material

hey don't go dissing A1GP ya know ;)

[wedge]

hey don't go dissing A1GP ya know ;)

90% of the drivers there should never ever go near a wheel of an F1 car

[harsha]

90% of the drivers there should never ever go near a wheel of an F1 car

lol,I doubt any of them were as bad as BADoer

[jens]

Toyota for me. It's just stunning - in Valencia no qualifying pace, but good race pace. Now good quali pace, but where the hell is the race pace? :s Forget Jarno, Timo benefitted from the messy start and was fourth. Everything seemed possible, but then he started dropping backwards into oblivion.

And Jarno yelling over the radio, how it's impossible to pass Badoer, was priceless. :laugh: He didn't get even close to Luca on straights. Toyota set up the car for higher downforce, but as they lacked pace on straight, it was a disadvantage for the race - quick in qualifying, but whenever hit in traffic in a GP (Glock was struggling in a midfield pack as well), it was meant to be a struggle.

[jimakos]

Toyota for me. It's just stunning - in Valencia no qualifying pace, but good race pace. Now good quali pace, but where the hell is the race pace? :s Forget Jarno, Timo benefitted from the messy start and was fourth. Everything seemed possible, but then he started dropping backwards into oblivion.

And Jarno yelling over the radio, how it's impossible to pass Badoer, was priceless. :laugh: He didn't get even close to Luca on straights. Toyota set up the car for higher downforce, but as they lacked pace on straight, it was a disadvantage for the race - quick in qualifying, but whenever hit in traffic in a GP (Glock was struggling in a midfield pack as well), it was meant to be a struggle.

Maybe toyota is the donkey of the day.
What about Badoer?

[5001]

Grosjean will not be popular at the next British Grand Prix if he still in F1 next year

[Garry Walker]

Badoer.

[Allyc85]

Grosjean for taking out Button and having the cheek to blame Jenson for the accident!!

[ioan]

Grosjean will not be popular at the next British Grand Prix if he still in F1 next year

You should thank him for sparing Jenson the embarrassment of sharing the last places with Badoer.

[HenryM]

after watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS2sdXx08-Y

I cannot blame Grosjean totally, and wow, good drive by Barrichello, very agressive

so I need to change my vote to the obvious choice (BAD)

[Valve Bounce]

It looked to me as if the 35 second Renault pitstop had more to do with the wheel being damaged from Alonso's first corner contact than a pit crew blunder.

Correct :up:

[Valve Bounce]

Red Bull lollipop man.

Did Mark's wheelspin contribute to his predicament? This was mentioned by Martin. Difficult one, because if Mark got ahead, he was looking at a podium.

[truefan72]

after watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS2sdXx08-Y

I cannot blame Grosjean totally, and wow, good drive by Barrichello, very agressive

so I need to change my vote to the obvious choice (BAD)

ok good video, it looks like button was a bit wide at les combs and sort of came in on the line. I stand corrected. now looks like 60% grosjean and 40% button

[ClarkFan]

ok good video, it looks like button was a bit wide at les combs and sort of came in on the line. I stand corrected. now looks like 60% grosjean and 40% button
I would stay with your first opinion. Remember that this accident is not at the first corner. Grosjean was behind Button and stuck his nose in where it didn't fit and where he couldn't possibly get past - also looks like he left his braking too late, which was why he got overlap on Button.

ClarkFan

[truefan72]

I would stay with your first opinion. Remember that this accident is not at the first corner. Grosjean was behind Button and stuck his nose in where it didn't fit and where he couldn't possibly get past - also looks like he left his braking too late, which was why he got overlap on Button.

ClarkFan

if you look at the vidoe, it is button who turned in to him, he was wide (i.e far on the inside)on les combs and grosjean was on the proper line.So I am not sure what button thought would happen.

[BDunnell]

Grosjean/Button — racing incident. No blame can be attached to either, surely?

[truefan72]

ok here we go

http://www.dsev.com/Images%203/pic0.jpg
1. you clearly see that Button is wide on the track , just like Rubens, Both have cars on the inside.



http://www.dsev.com/Images%203/pic1.jpg
2. approaching the entrance to les combs, Button still wide, Grojean on the inside. rubens is overtaking the STR here and knows ( like I hope Button would have) that cars are on the inside on the PREFERRED line, Button is already starting to turn into Grosjean


http://www.dsev.com/Images%203/pic2.jpg
3. Button continues to close in on Grosjean, you can already see the slight trails of brake smoke as Grosjean realizes that Button is diving into him, he has nowhere to go and if he brakes harder, would surely get hit by the STR behind him. Button is on the outside and it is his imperative not to force his way into the line that late and know that cars are already on the inside.


http://www.dsev.com/Images%203/pic3.jpg
4. Button continues to cut into the inside, Grosjean brakes harder( that is why he is slightly behind)Button's angle clearly indicates him moving into the inside where Grosjean has no room to move. Notice that Barrichello is in about the identical spot that button was just a fraction of a second before, is ahead of the STR but chooses not to cut inside.


http://www.dsev.com/Images%203/pic4.jpg
5. The likely outcome of Button's actions. Tried to force his way into the line and precipitated the incident. At best this is a racing incident, at worst, Button tries to force his way into the preferred racing line, squeezes the rookie and causes the melee to follow. If Button had stayed wide a little longer, then he would have passed Gorsjean easily, since he was behind kovy.

A racing incident with me now thinking it is at least 50/50 between Grosjean and Button

[Saint Devote]

Grosjean

Barrichello deserve mention for his problem at the start again, but apart from that he was ok and was lucky to finish the race.

Including Barrichello here is just plain wrong.

First of all he had clutch problems which causes the anti-stall mechanism to kick in and the driver has to begin the starting process from scratch - hence Barrichello at the back as the field moved off.

Then he is moving up through the field in the space of about 20 laps makes up 10 places after his first pit stop and before his second.

Then at Blanchimond, on the OUTSIDE he passes Webber!! of all people and finishes in the points pushiing Kovaleinen in a KERS car and only having to back off because of an oil leak problem and then ably manages the car to the end.

Blanchimond is a 186 mph severe left hand bend in 6th gear and 3.5g's.
Have you any idea what it takes to do that?

Rubens was anything but a donkey at Spa - he was one of the drives of the race and if he continues this way and Jenson continues the way his season is going currently, Barrichaello could well wind up a world champion!

And let me state that as anyone reading previous posts of mine I am not a Barrichello supporter - I have for years been one of Jenson's Barmy Army and I support him fully and I am confident that he wil turn his season around and win the world title :-] Go Jenson!!!!

But I love motor racing and it does not matter to me who the driver is if he drives like a real f1 driver. I will always recognize that.

Now, please apologize to your fellow countryman who had been driving incredibly well the past few weeks and recognize his achievement.

[Saint Devote]

Button was in front of Grosjean and the French idiot ought to have slowed and allowed Button through.

Exactly what was Grosjean thinking? He performed badly at Valencia but at least did not cause chaos but moved aside when neccessary. Button is fighting for the championship and Grosjean is in his second grand prix only. Maybe he will learn - perhaps not.

In addition, Hamilton supports Button and if you follow in Button's car, Grosjean is not even alingside Jenson.

No, there is no excuse. Grosjean was the primary donkey of this race and if he continues this way, he will find out exactly what Piquet felt like when he is sent packing.

Alguersuari also criticized Grosjean and if there IS a new driver that is a shining example it is Jaime. If Toro Rosso do not want him in 2010 I am sure Flavio will vie for him. Kubica and Algersuari - great combination.

Also, just look back and see how the Spaniard has managed his drives and championships in the junior formulas compared to the chaotic and impetuous Grosjean.

[HenryM]

Including Barrichello here is just plain wrong.



I know, the thing is, he had this very same problem 3 times this year, and this problem made his race much harder, and when you are trying to fight for a championship with such a big difference in points but still some real chance, and the other 3 main competitors are starting behind you, and the leader far behind, this is a very costly problem, and since Button didn't have this problem all the year I can only think that Barrichello was trying to start better than was possible, earlier than was possible?!
I just think he was maybe the "donkey" in this, but not of the race for sure, when he get the car moving he drove really well, a very agressive "start"

and about Barrichello, I really like him, I'm 21 years old and since I remember watching F1 he was a guy that I was supporting and expecting to do the best, and I was really happy with his victory in valencia, and I'm really happy to see that he is still driving at a so high level,
but I don't need to apologize to him, as I think all this problems at the start, even more when you are in such a good position is a bit "donkey", I think I didn't make this very clear in my first post,

in my first post the donkey of the race to me was Grosjean, but after watching the video i'm not so sure.

[markabilly]

Fisi for saying six times in the post race interview that he was faster than Kimi, or could have beat him!
Very classy :down:
yep, not even an attempt to pass, must have sold out, thinking ferrari was gonna hire him to be a lap dog...... :rotflmao:

[keysersoze]

I tell you what struck me about that video sequence--very cool BTW Truefan--was all the steering input Rubens was feeding. In the braking zone of the right hander it looks as if RB is 3/4 to lock TO THE LEFT. A fraction of a second later he's 3/4 lock to the right with JA alongside.

Impressive car control. After his start line cock-up he was a beast on lap one.

[truefan72]

Button was in front of Grosjean and the French idiot ought to have slowed and allowed Button through.

Please give me a break about Button fighting for the championship and Grosjean not, so at the start of the race he should concede to another driver and let him take a spot away. this is just an absurd statement.




In addition, Hamilton supports Button and if you follow in Button's car, Grosjean is not even alingside Jenson.

No, there is no excuse. Grosjean was the primary donkey of this race and if he continues this way, he will find out exactly what Piquet felt like when he is sent packing.


being in front is not the full story. you can be in front and waaay off the racing line, forcing you to come back into it and hitting cars that were sensible enough to stay on the preferred line. You cannot absolve Button from this incident and other drivers comments are usually made in the heat of battle or right after the incident without the benefit of seeing a proper review.

Looking at Button's onboard is his only saving grace in the fact that he may not have known that grosjean was in the inside, but that is little relief as he clearly knew he was passing cars and was very wide into les combs on the very first lap of the bloody race.

like i said a 50/50 blame which is a racing incident at best

[emk]

In *normal* racing, if your front wing is on side of other ones rear wheel, you're technically side-by-side with him. F1 has always been different and you look over situations just through names of the drivers. So according to rules, Button was NOT in front and sohuld've left room for Grosjean.

But still would put it 50/50 because everyone knows in top level of any racing series for some stupid reason this rule is kind of forgetten and Grosjean could've avoided the collision by giving up. Yet still I like his attitude, not looking at the names on first lap, all drivers on the same line.

[Big Ben]

Luca Badoer. Some made some mistakes... but in his case the fact that he's there is a mistake, his and Ferrari's.

[ioan]

ok here we go

http://www.dsev.com/Images%203/pic0.jpg
1. you clearly see that Button is wide on the track , just like Rubens, Both have cars on the inside.



http://www.dsev.com/Images%203/pic1.jpg
2. approaching the entrance to les combs, Button still wide, Grojean on the inside. rubens is overtaking the STR here and knows ( like I hope Button would have) that cars are on the inside on the PREFERRED line, Button is already starting to turn into Grosjean


http://www.dsev.com/Images%203/pic2.jpg
3. Button continues to close in on Grosjean, you can already see the slight trails of brake smoke as Grosjean realizes that Button is diving into him, he has nowhere to go and if he brakes harder, would surely get hit by the STR behind him. Button is on the outside and it is his imperative not to force his way into the line that late and know that cars are already on the inside.


http://www.dsev.com/Images%203/pic3.jpg
4. Button continues to cut into the inside, Grosjean brakes harder( that is why he is slightly behind)Button's angle clearly indicates him moving into the inside where Grosjean has no room to move. Notice that Barrichello is in about the identical spot that button was just a fraction of a second before, is ahead of the STR but chooses not to cut inside.


http://www.dsev.com/Images%203/pic4.jpg
5. The likely outcome of Button's actions. Tried to force his way into the line and precipitated the incident. At best this is a racing incident, at worst, Button tries to force his way into the preferred racing line, squeezes the rookie and causes the melee to follow. If Button had stayed wide a little longer, then he would have passed Gorsjean easily, since he was behind kovy.

A racing incident with me now thinking it is at least 50/50 between Grosjean and Button

Button's fault no question about it.

[jimakos]

Agree with you ioan!
There is no doubt that is Button's mistake the whole accident!
So,he wins the title of donkey :p

[I am evil Homer]

Yep definitely Jenson's fault.

[stevie_gerrard]

Grosjean for the move that took out Button, and then forced Hamilton on the slow for alguersuari to hit the back of him.

[jens]

Truefan, good explanation with evidence about the Button/Grosjean collision. :up:

[Wasted Talent]

Button was in front of Grosjean and the French idiot ought to have slowed and allowed Button through.

Exactly what was Grosjean thinking? He performed badly at Valencia but at least did not cause chaos but moved aside when neccessary. Button is fighting for the championship and Grosjean is in his second grand prix only. Maybe he will learn - perhaps not.

In addition, Hamilton supports Button and if you follow in Button's car, Grosjean is not even alingside Jenson.

No, there is no excuse. Grosjean was the primary donkey of this race and if he continues this way, he will find out exactly what Piquet felt like when he is sent packing.

Alguersuari also criticized Grosjean and if there IS a new driver that is a shining example it is Jaime. If Toro Rosso do not want him in 2010 I am sure Flavio will vie for him. Kubica and Algersuari - great combination.

Also, just look back and see how the Spaniard has managed his drives and championships in the junior formulas compared to the chaotic and impetuous Grosjean.

Agree 100%

WT

[ClarkFan]

Truefan, good explanation with evidence about the Button/Grosjean collision. :up:
Good, perhaps, but I believe that it is incorrect.

By being on the outside before the corner entrance, Button is the one on the preferred racing line (track out - apex - track out) and Grosjean is on a slower line that leads to a smaller radius (slower) curve. And Grosjean is fully behind Button at the start of the braking zone for Les Combes. He only got partially alongside by leaving his braking later and sticking his nose in where there was nowhere to go. So unless Button was braking too early (Coulthard believed that was not true), Grosjean was braking too late for cold tires and full tanks and caused the accident.

And Hamilton, who had an in-the-ring seat stated that Grosjean hit Button. My guess is that he could discern that from Button braking too early.

ClarkFan

[jens]

Good, perhaps, but I believe that it is incorrect.

By being on the outside before the corner entrance, Button is the one on the preferred racing line (track out - apex - track out) and Grosjean is on a slower line that leads to a smaller radius (slower) curve. And Grosjean is fully behind Button at the start of the braking zone for Les Combes. He only got partially alongside by leaving his braking later and sticking his nose in where there was nowhere to go. So unless Button was braking too early (Coulthard believed that was not true), Grosjean was braking too late for cold tires and full tanks and caused the accident.


Well, Grosjean was quite close to the car ahead of him, so I think he didn't expect Button to try to slot in between them like in traffic. As much as it seems to me, Grosjean doesn't seem to brake later than the guy in front of him, alongside who Button almost was.

[Tazio]

Including Barrichello here is just plain wrong.

First of all he had clutch problems which causes the anti-stall mechanism to kick in and the driver has to begin the starting process from scratch - hence Barrichello at the back as the field moved off.

Then he is moving up through the field in the space of about 20 laps makes up 10 places after his first pit stop and before his second.

Then at Blanchimond, on the OUTSIDE he passes Webber!! of all people and finishes in the points pushiing Kovaleinen in a KERS car and only having to back off because of an oil leak problem and then ably manages the car to the end.

Blanchimond is a 186 mph severe left hand bend in 6th gear and 3.5g's.
Have you any idea what it takes to do that?

Rubens was anything but a donkey at Spa - he was one of the drives of the race and if he continues this way and Jenson continues the way his season is going currently, Barrichaello could well wind up a world champion!

And let me state that as anyone reading previous posts of mine I am not a Barrichello supporter - I have for years been one of Jenson's Barmy Army and I support him fully and I am confident that he wil turn his season around and win the world title :-] Go Jenson!!!!

But I love motor racing and it does not matter to me who the driver is if he drives like a real f1 driver. I will always recognize that.

Now, please apologize to your fellow countryman who had been driving incredibly well the past few weeks and recognize his achievement.

You watched the race on acid didn't you? :uhoh:
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[ioan]

Good, perhaps, but I believe that it is incorrect.

IMO it is correct and well substantiated.

[ClarkFan]

Well, Grosjean was quite close to the car ahead of him, so I think he didn't expect Button to try to slot in between them like in traffic. As much as it seems to me, Grosjean doesn't seem to brake later than the guy in front of him, alongside who Button almost was.
Look at Truefan's sequence of stills again, and be sure to remember that a camera lens reduces apparent depth of field for objects at a distance. In the first still, there is actually a signficant distance between Grosjean and the other car on the right hand side of the track. It just looks like they are very close due to the telephoto effect. There is plenty of space for Button to fit behind that car and Grosjean behind Button. And this is about the turn in point for the corner, after most of the braking, save some trail braking (hard braking + turning wheels = trip into the weeds). So Grosjean is closer to the car (and Button) at that point than he would have been at the start of the normal braking zone, because he left his braking too late.

Button's mistake was assuming that Grojean would not be foolish :rolleyes: and try to dive into an impossible space - braking too late and off line. A mistake, clearly, but not the primary cause of the accident. The primary cause is the combination of youth, adrenaline, and testosterone poisoning. :eek:

ClarkFan

[truefan72]

By being on the outside before the corner entrance, Button is the one on the preferred racing line (track out - apex - track out) and Grosjean is on a slower line that leads to a smaller radius (slower) curve. And Grosjean is fully behind Button at the start of the braking zone for Les Combes. He only got partially alongside by leaving his braking later and sticking his nose in where there was nowhere to go. So unless Button was braking too early (Coulthard believed that was not true), Grosjean was braking too late for cold tires and full tanks and caused the accident.
ClarkFan

that is one way of seeing it, but simply does not hold true in this case where most of the drivers where not wide , and there was no room for button to enter. He tried to force his way in after overtkaing a few cars and runnignwide into the turn, along with trying to outbrake others. That is the price you pay for outbraking, you are wide/late into the turn and normal racing dictates that you can;t then simply barge your way in there when there is traffic.



Button's mistake was assuming that Grojean would not be foolish :rolleyes: and try to dive into an impossible space - braking too late and off line.
ClarkFan

and Grosjean's mistake was assuming that Button would not be foolish :rolleyes: and try to dive into an impossible space - braking too late and off line.

[schmenke]

Fisi for saying six times in the post race interview that he was faster than Kimi, or could have beat him!
Very classy :down:

Yeah, I was thinking the same.
No, Fisi, you weren’t faster than Kimi for 39 of 44 laps :mark:

[schmenke]

1 kimi
-unfair advantage gained by going off the track completely
...

Don't blame Kimi. Blame the overly-cautious FIA for mandating tarmac for run-off areas allowing drivers to take advantage where they once couldn't :mark:

[truefan72]

Don't blame Kimi. Blame the overly-cautious FIA for mandating tarmac for run-off areas allowing drivers to take advantage where they once couldn't :mark:


i for one prfere the run off area than seeing a car slam inot the barriers and a driver getting hurt

[ioan]

Don't blame Kimi. Blame the overly-cautious FIA for mandating tarmac for run-off areas allowing drivers to take advantage where they once couldn't :mark:

It's always someone else's fault! That's what all kids say when they get caught doing something wrong.

[ioan]

Schools back eh ioan, I don't envy you one bit :)

I've got no teaching for the first months! :p :

[Knock-on]

I think Kimi choose to use the run-off to gain a place rather than brake and keep on track.

However, this is something that the FIA have let happen with the run-offs as people have pointed out.

So, what to do about it?

Well, nobody wants to see a wall there where drivers smash and risk injury but there should be some "carrot" to keep them on the Island. Rumble strips, chicane or whatever so it penalises you by running off without ruining your race. I bet drivers will be able to brake and keep on track a bit more then.

As for the Button incident. I cannot see what the issue is. Groj was behind him and Button had the corner. You can't go around missing apexes by a cars width in case some rookie cant brake in time.

Rookie mistake but that's racing.

[ioan]

You can't go around missing apexes by a cars width ...

Yeah, a driver should be better than that especially when he is leading the WDC! :D

[Knock-on]

Yeah, a driver should be better than that especially when he is leading the WDC! :D

Well, if a driver can win a GP by missing half the tack, what's the odd apex or 2? :D

[Knock-on]

I understood what you meant Knock-On, perhaps we should start double spacing everything... :p

Ickle steps my friend. Ickle steps :D

http://www.janetandjohn.com/

[schmenke]

It's always someone else's fault! That's what all kids say when they get caught doing something wrong.

No one is at fault here, nor did anyone do anything wrong :s . I was replying to truefan's comment that Kimi had gained an unfair advantage. How is it unfair if every driver on the circuit has the same opportunity to exploit the same piece of tarmac that, IMO, should not be there.

[Sonic]

A quick game on Mario Kart this morning at "work" gave me the answer.....

Lava pits! :p

That would soon stop drivers going offline :D

*slaps himself in face with a wet kipper for being so childish*

[ioan]

No one is at fault here, nor did anyone do anything wrong :s .

Than why blame someone?
For reference:


Don't blame Kimi. Blame the overly-cautious FIA for mandating tarmac for run-off areas allowing drivers to take advantage where they once couldn't :mark:


I was replying to truefan's comment that Kimi had gained an unfair advantage. How is it unfair if every driver on the circuit has the same opportunity to exploit the same piece of tarmac that, IMO, should not be there.

The tarmac run off is there for security purposes and I say well done for that, can you imagine how much worse it would have been for Massa if there wasn't that large asphalt run off in Hungary?

The FIA also has rules that regulate what happens when a driver decides to leave the track, delimited by the white lines. If only the race stewards were smart enough to know how to read we wouldn't have this discussion.

[schmenke]

Than why blame someone?
For reference:...

I’m not suggesting laying blame for any wrong doing :rolleyes: My remark, and choice of words, were in reply to truefan’s post.

Your constant pursuit and criticism of flaws in members' posts is tiresome.

You constantly demand the posting of facts, not opinion, which defeats the purpose of a discussion forum.

Might I suggest to avoid yourself further aggravation you avoid this forum and read an encyclopedia instead :mark:

[ioan]

Might I suggest to avoid yourself further aggravation you avoid this forum and read an encyclopedia instead :mark:

Might be a good idea but there is little fun in doing that no one get's worked up over nothing over there.

I think I'll just continue to increase my ignore list that I started populating this past week end.

[schmenke]

...I think I'll just continue to increase my ignore list that I started populating this past week end.

Ditto.

[ioan]

Wow is this a claim that your posts have no substance because people are just getting worked up over nothing? I nearly damaged my retina's reading this!!

Might because of the damaged retina cause you read it wrong! :p :


I'm sure increasing your ignore list gives you hours of self satisfaction and with every name that enters it, gets a punch in the air like a 'World of Warcraft' player in a Leeroy style frenzy... :p

World of what?! :confused:


You try a game of golf at the weekends bro, (none GP of course) I'll give you a game... Saying that the last tifosi I played with ended up face down in the bunker at hole 17... ;)

Golf? I'm not that old yet! ;)

[ioan]

If golf is played by old people, half the PGA tour should take a 20 year break.. :laugh:
I was afraid you didn't have a sense of humour...

I was referring to those not so pro in golf. ;)

[ioan]

In that case I wouldn't know ;)

I see! :D

[Sonic]

The tarmac run off is there for security purposes and I say well done for that, can you imagine how much worse it would have been for Massa if there wasn't that large asphalt run off in Hungary?


Just a quick thought on this. As FM was in his words "asleep" perhaps gravel would have been more helpful in his particular situation. Thoughts?

[schmenke]

I've always felt that there must be a happy medium. Perhaps a narrow strip of gravel following the contour of the curbs, followed by tarmac to the tire barrier. The gravel strip would discourage drivers from purposely taking the corner too wide, but tarmac would still be there to slow a car down in the event of an accidental off.

[Bagwan]

Can I add a donkey here , please ?

McLaren , and , who knows , maybe others , have designed cars that the drivers cannot see out of .
This was mentioned in reference to the McLaren of Lewis Hamilton , where his seat has been lowered to the degree that he can see much less than he could before .

Does this seem like a donkey move to anyone else ?
Does the FIA get this donkey , or should it go to specific designers ?

Letting drivers complaining of not being able to see is stupid , is it not ?

[ioan]

Just a quick thought on this. As FM was in his words "asleep" perhaps gravel would have been more helpful in his particular situation. Thoughts?

Don't know about that but the Ferrari has left skid marks all the way from the track to the tire wall sign that for whatever reason there was braking involved.

In the situation of a knocked off driver it is possible that gravel does make a better surface to slow the car, but it doesn't happen often that a driver is knocked unconscious before leaving the track so probably tarmac run offs are better as long as the stewards are selected between people who know the rules.

[ioan]

Can I add a donkey here , please ?

McLaren , and , who knows , maybe others , have designed cars that the drivers cannot see out of .
This was mentioned in reference to the McLaren of Lewis Hamilton , where his seat has been lowered to the degree that he can see much less than he could before .

Does this seem like a donkey move to anyone else ?
Does the FIA get this donkey , or should it go to specific designers ?

Letting drivers complaining of not being able to see is stupid , is it not ?

That's a very interesting point. IMO the designers will go over what is called common sense and the FIA should stop them before drivers get to the point where they drive the car without seeing other but the sky and the grandstands.

[Sleeper]

In regards to the Button/Grosjean accident what no one has mentioned yet is that Button was racing Heikki all the way up the Kemmel streight, thats why he's on the outside and only concede in the braking zone, after that he trys to slot in behind Heikki, as you do, but found a very late braking Renault getting in the way that shouldnt have been there, but that can happen in the pack. A racing accident.

[ioan]

In regards to the Button/Grosjean accident what no one has mentioned yet is that Button was racing Heikki all the way up the Kemmel streight, thats why he's on the outside and only concede in the braking zone, after that he trys to slot in behind Heikki, as you do, but found a very late braking Renault getting in the way that shouldnt have been there, but that can happen in the pack. A racing accident.

As I said it's always someone else's fault.

[ioan]

Indeed its just unfortunate that that someone happens to be Grosjean in this instance... Poor chap :p

Nah, you didn't get it, it's not Grosjean's it's someone else's fault! :p

[SGWilko]

You're right, I blame Eddie Irvine, you, or someone else.. :p

Come on, get with it - It's Gordon Brown's fault.

Everything else is.....

[ioan]

:D

[Knock-on]

Come on, get with it - It's Gordon Brown's fault.

Everything else is.....

Well, if you read the US tabloids today, you would think he was the Anti-Christ.

(An opinion I wont disagree with after this disgusting Lockerbie debarcle)

[ClarkFan]

Can I add a donkey here , please ?

McLaren , and , who knows , maybe others , have designed cars that the drivers cannot see out of .
This was mentioned in reference to the McLaren of Lewis Hamilton , where his seat has been lowered to the degree that he can see much less than he could before .

Does this seem like a donkey move to anyone else ?
Does the FIA get this donkey , or should it go to specific designers ?

Letting drivers complaining of not being able to see is stupid , is it not ?
:up:

A minimum visibility standard would be a major safety improvement, especially if it also specified minimum ability for a driver to see behind and beside the car.

ClarkFan

[ClarkFan]

Come on, get with it - It's Gordon Brown's fault.

Everything else is.....
Was that him forcing the Ferrari well outside the line at La Source, too? The man must be fiendlishly clever - able to cause chaos in (at least) two places at the same time!

ClarkFan

[ArrowsFA1]

Can I add a donkey here , please ?

McLaren , and , who knows , maybe others , have designed cars that the drivers cannot see out of.
Raised cockpit sides were mandated by the FIA following the Couldthard/Wurz accident at the 2007 Australian GP, and calls from the drivers for something to be done (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62721)).

[Knock-on]

Was that him forcing the Ferrari well outside the line at La Source, too? The man must be fiendlishly clever - able to cause chaos in (at least) two places at the same time!

ClarkFan

Piece of cake. He has managed to cause chaos, anger and outrage in England, Scotland and the US while bending over and greasing up with good old BP crude from our Lybian brothers.

The mans a genius I tell you. Nobody can f**k up so many people by accident :rolleyes:

[ClarkFan]

Piece of cake. He has managed to cause chaos, anger and outrage in England, Scotland and the US while bending over and greasing up with good old BP crude from our Lybian brothers.

The mans a genius I tell you. Nobody can f**k up so many people by accident :rolleyes:
Only a genius of the second rank. For ineptitude, the US administration that left in January is without peer....... :(

ClarkFan

[ioan]

Well, if you read the US tabloids today, you would think he was the Anti-Christ.

(An opinion I wont disagree with after this disgusting Lockerbie debarcle)

And me thinking the Scots freed the Libyan bomber.

[Knock-on]

And me thinking the Scots freed the Libyan bomber.

The Scots freed him but our beloved Prime Minister told the Scottish Minister that he didn't want al-Megrahi to die in the UK therefore expressing his desire he be freed.

The UK Government also made a promise that he would never be freed.

Then we have the Lybian BP contract that stalled until this matter was resolved making this a Oil for Terrorist exchange. Nothing more, nothing less.

This man was convicted of the worst mass murder on UK soil yet serves just 10 days for each of his Victims.

By that logic, if I wring Gordon Browns weasle neck straight after Monza, I'll be out before Singapore.

[ClarkFan]

By that logic, if I wring Gordon Browns weasle neck straight after Monza, I'll be out before Singapore.
At this point, the rest of the Labour party might nominate you for the Honours List..... :eek:

ClarkFan

[SGWilko]

Can I add a donkey here , please ?

McLaren , and , who knows , maybe others , have designed cars that the drivers cannot see out of .
This was mentioned in reference to the McLaren of Lewis Hamilton , where his seat has been lowered to the degree that he can see much less than he could before .

Does this seem like a donkey move to anyone else ?
Does the FIA get this donkey , or should it go to specific designers ?

Letting drivers complaining of not being able to see is stupid , is it not ?

But, hold on, BillyBoy thinks the drivers heads are exposed too much already. This must be a good thing....

[SGWilko]

the Labour party might nominate you for the Honours List..... :eek:

ClarkFan

Only if you give them a loan......

[Dave B]

Piece of cake. He has managed to cause chaos, anger and outrage in England, Scotland and the US while bending over and greasing up with good old BP crude from our Lybian brothers.

The mans a genius I tell you. Nobody can f**k up so many people by accident :rolleyes:
You think it's bad now (and you'd have a point): just wait until that simpering wickfit Cameron gets in next year :dozey: But I digress...

[Bagwan]

Raised cockpit sides were mandated by the FIA following the Couldthard/Wurz accident at the 2007 Australian GP, and calls from the drivers for something to be done (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62721)).

Maybe you didn't hear the same commentary that I did , but they were saying that Lewis has had his seat lowered in the cockpit , and since the area in front has not been altered significantly , he has complained that he has much more restricted vision than he had when he started the year .

Simply , a low centre of gravity trumps the need to see where you are going .

Donkey , donkey , donkey !

Not you , Arrows , but any designer that thinks that's a good rule of thumb .

[ArrowsFA1]

Maybe you didn't hear the same commentary that I did , but they were saying that Lewis has had his seat lowered in the cockpit...
No you're right, I didn't hear that.

I do remember the surface area of the wing mirrors being increased some time ago, but given where some of them are positioned and the higher cockpit sides and lower driver position it's a wonder the drivers can see anything at all!

[Sonic]

Maybe you didn't hear the same commentary that I did , but they were saying that Lewis has had his seat lowered in the cockpit , and since the area in front has not been altered significantly , he has complained that he has much more restricted vision than he had when he started the year .

Simply , a low centre of gravity trumps the need to see where you are going .

Donkey , donkey , donkey !

Not you , Arrows , but any designer that thinks that's a good rule of thumb .

Completely with you buster!

its kind of a rather obvious draw back - not being able to see where you are going! Blithering idiots! I can imagine the conversation now;

"Ok Lewis, we are going to lower you by 20cm for improved cog. It will give us 0.05 per lap!"
"But I can't see!"
"And?"

[schmenke]

Maybe you didn't hear the same commentary that I did , but they were saying that Lewis has had his seat lowered in the cockpit , and since the area in front has not been altered significantly , he has complained that he has much more restricted vision than he had when he started the year ....

It was Speed TV's Steve Matchett, I believe, that mentioned it during the race commentary.

[Dzeidzei]

It was Speed TV's Steve Matchett, I believe, that mentioned it during the race commentary.

I dont think theyve lowered his seat. Where the hello would his balls find place? In a hole under the seat? Theyd be scraping the track.

[ioan]

I dont think theyve lowered his seat. Where the hello would his balls find place? In a hole under the seat? Theyd be scraping the track.

:laugh: :up:

[ClarkFan]

I dont think theyve lowered his seat. Where the hello would his balls find place? In a hole under the seat? Theyd be scraping the track.
I fail to see a problem for the McLaren technical team to address......

:eek:

ClarkFan