Why Would You - How Would You

[Roamy]

So lets say:
1. Alonso signs with Ferrari. Now what about Massa? What if Massa is faster?? Now you spent all that money. Pretty evident that Kimi is off to Rally. Someone who knows racing long ago told me Massa is a lot faster than people give him credit for. He is troubled in the wet but so what Prost.

2. Mclaren - Why sign Rosberg? You have the WDC who has handily beat Kovi and is proven fast in the rain. Now you would have turmoil - Get a real good developer and hang your hat on Lewis. Does anyone think that Rosberg would come just to carry Lewis's lunch bucket. Now with Kub you have no developer.
AH my sleeper would be Sutil.

[gloomyDAY]

AH my sleeper would be Sutil. :rotflmao: .......wait, you're serious?....... :crazy:


Heidfeld is the man for the #2 seat at McLaren.
Great at developing, team player, and he's German (Mercedes would love that!).

[Knock-on]

So lets say:
1. Alonso signs with Ferrari. Now what about Massa? What if Massa is faster?? Now you spent all that money. Pretty evident that Kimi is off to Rally. Someone who knows racing long ago told me Massa is a lot faster than people give him credit for. He is troubled in the wet but so what Prost.

2. Mclaren - Why sign Rosberg? You have the WDC who has handily beat Kovi and is proven fast in the rain. Now you would have turmoil - Get a real good developer and hang your hat on Lewis. Does anyone think that Rosberg would come just to carry Lewis's lunch bucket. Now with Kub you have no developer.
AH my sleeper would be Sutil.

The Ferrari situation would be interesting with Alonso and Massa. I have changed my mind about the young man and think now he has settled a bit, he is pretty quick. Perhaps not on par with Alonso but respectable. Alonso has matured a great deal in the last couple of years and I cannot see the shenanigans that occured at McLaren being repeated so you have a very fast TEAM in Ferrari.

Kubica is a bit of a prima dona IMHO and like an early Alonso to some degree. I would love to see a fast driver like the Kube with Hamilton but can't see it working.

Then you bring up one of my favorite drivers; Sutil. I really rate him and would love to see what he can do. He would be a good fit at McLaren but where would that leave Kubica?

Kovy had a good weekend for once so would be interesting to see if he can repeat it at a real track like Spa.

[ioan]

:rotflmao: .......wait, you're serious?....... :crazy:


Heidfeld is the man for the #2 seat at McLaren.
Great at developing, team player, and he's German (Mercedes would love that!).

Sutil is German too and he's a team player also and on top of that he and Lewsi are very good friends!

[Sonic]

Don't forget Ferrari were asking for a third car; so it is not certain any current driver will be out on their ear, and with Toyota "not confirmed" for 2010 its possible three car teams could pop up.

This sounds a bit distasteful but I'll say it anyway - perhaps Ferrari will/should wait to see how Massa is. Much as I don't want it to happen - Massa may not be the same, then Kimi and Fred would be the logical choice.

As for Macca - there is no way on Gods green earth that McLaren are going to put two hotheads in the same team for a very long while. So that's Kubica out and probably Nico too as I can't see either accepting the second rate treatment handed out to Kovy this year. Sutil would be a GREAT choice IMO. Young and hungry, but would be greatful for a run in a good car and probably wouldn't kick up a big fuss at being number 2 (at least for a while).

[jens]

I have heard that Kubica is a bit of a tough character, who might not fit well into McLaren environment, but I don't think Rosberg is quite the same - I suppose he could actually be a good fit into McLaren.

As for being "fixed" #2, then I have to disagree with some notions a bit. If a "Number Two" is at least as fast as the lead driver if not faster, it will be logical to support him as well. When Räikkönen joined Ferrari, it was thought that Massa is gonna stay as No.2, but he performed well enough not to drop into that role. Clear #2's arise only when one driver is visibly superior to the other one, so it's logical to support the lead driver. So there is nothing wrong if Rosberg took the gamble to try to prove himself against Hamilton.

[Saint Devote]

Alonso will break Massa psychologically besides being quicker than him. Massa's 2007 chance is the best it will get for him I think. Raikonnen is different to other drivers. He has ironclad self-esteem so therefore is not bothered by any teammate.

I would place Raikonnen alongside Alonso - the team would fly!

Mclaren - no number 1 driver with aspirations should sign, unless his name is Kubica. He is another version of Raikonnen but is far more aggressive and hungrier for success.

On the other hand if you want a new driver that has great potential and given that Mercedes have been yearning for a German driver then look no further than Nico - not Rosberg, but Hulkenburg.

Rosberg is not a match for Hamilton at Mclaren. I could be wrong but the second seat looks awfully like the same at Lotus years ago.

[woody2goody]

Heidfeld should have been given the second McLaren seat ages ago (2002), in fact when they signed Kimi despite Nick beating him fairly easily.

It's amazing what people say. They said at the time 'well it's only Kimi's first season no wonder Nick beat him'. Yes, but it was only Nick's second season (2001).

I know Nick would probably take a drive in McLaren number 2, however he probably still feels a bit betrayed by how they treated him when he was their test driver.

Nick's a damn good driver and more deserving of a top drive than Kubica IMO. Robert's a good driver and deserves a seat somewhere, but not over Nick.

[woody2goody]

Oh by the way, Sutil - I've never been sold on him to be honest.

A lot of people rave about him, but the facts are that Valencia was only the third time he has beaten Fisi all season (inc. DNFs). I know I'm a big Fisi fan, but Sutil's been probably noticed by people for four races in his career.

The one at Spa in 07 where he was running with the Red Bulls and Williams I think.

Japan 2007 where he scored a point, good stuff.

Monaco 08 where he did drive brilliantly and didn't deserve Kimi to crash into him,

and Nurburgring this year when he did genuinely drive a fantastic race.

Apart from that all he's done in his career is crash and be near the back of the grid.

It makes me laugh how some people say that veterans like Fisi and Trulli shouldn't be on the grid next year, but yet Fisi has beaten his supposedly highly rated teammate 8 times out of 11, and Trulli has beaten Glock fairly easily this year despite Glock being a good driver who I like a lot.

The difference between Fisi and Sutil is that Sutil's great performances have put him in the spotlight, and Fisi's great performances have been either from the back or lower part of the grid (Silverstone, Monaco, Nurburgring, Spain).

Nothing against Sutil, and he is a great driver in the wet, but I'd rather have Nico or Nick (lol) in the second Macca.

[pino]

So lets say:
1. Alonso signs with Ferrari. Now what about Massa? What if Massa is faster?? Now you spent all that money. Pretty evident that Kimi is off to Rally. Someone who knows racing long ago told me Massa is a lot faster than people give him credit for. He is troubled in the wet but so what Prost.

2. Mclaren - Why sign Rosberg? You have the WDC who has handily beat Kovi and is proven fast in the rain. Now you would have turmoil - Get a real good developer and hang your hat on Lewis. Does anyone think that Rosberg would come just to carry Lewis's lunch bucket. Now with Kub you have no developer.
AH my sleeper would be Sutil.

Great thread uncle but can I change the title ? It sounds like a Britney Spears song :p :

[Roamy]

by all means pino - I hate her

[UltimateDanGTR]

I rate rosberg highly, he's very consistent, but i dont think he's as fast as Hamilton, or fast enough really without being whipped by hamilton, he would just be another kovy.

kubica would be very fast and consistent, and you'd have a super team lined up there, if him and lewis could work well together.

I also rate Heidfeld, but he was outclassed by his team last year in competitive manchinery. then again, he deserves a big seat in a top team, plus he is a good team player.

this will be a very interesting decision for mclaren whoever they go for, who knows they might even stay with kovy, although i believe this wouldn't be good for the whole team

[ioan]

Alonso will break Massa psychologically besides being quicker than him.

Kimi was supposed to break him too! :rotflmao:


Massa's 2007 chance is the best it will get for him I think.


Your 'knowledge' shows.

[Donney]

I see a problem with Alonso driving for Ferrari, Schumacher. Two Alfa dogs in the same kennel.... It calls for trouble.

[Saint Devote]

Great thread uncle but can I change the title ? It sounds like a Britney Spears song :p :

You listen to Britney Spears?

[Saint Devote]

Kimi was supposed to break him too! :rotflmao:



Your 'knowledge' shows.

Since when? That's not Raikonnen. Raikonnen doesn't care. His teammate is and has always been incidental to him. He is there for himself and the team and everyone else can fit in or not - thats up to them.

Alsonso is entirely different. He will attempt to dominate the team and unless Massa acquieces to that he will begin a campaign to undermine Massa's confidence.

You may believe that Massa is a championship force but should Alonso join Ferrari, exactly how is he going to beat him in a straight fight?

Schumacher could not even manage that and it wore the great driver down right into retirement.

[Saint Devote]

I see a problem with Alonso driving for Ferrari, Schumacher. Two Alfa dogs in the same kennel.... It calls for trouble.

Indeed - trouble for Shumacher if he tries anything.

Alonso is a driver that Schumacher has never overcome in a championship battle and they both know it.

It appears that Schumacher is a frustrated man because of what he sees as unfinished business. When he left he now believes that he made the wrong move, but he had just been through two consecutive years of being beaten by the new uber champion named Alsonso and the result was a tired driver that saw no way out but to fall on his sword for his protege Massa.

Now Schumacher wants to return to satisfy himself and not being able too has to be extremely upsetting.

Anyone looking at Schumacher during the Badoer pitsop where he allowed Grosjean to pass him on the way out could see how disgusted Schumacher was and maybe he was trying to control his expression for the cameras.

Now on to Spa, a circuit that both Raikonnen and Schumacher are excellent on - watching Badoer even if he is not as bad as at Valencia is going to take all Schumacher's great self-control.

At least this is the picture that Schumacher portrays and Niki Lauda directly alluded to this a few weeks ago.

Is Schumacher's neck really counting him out completely or maybe he did not want to debut at Valencia or perhaps he will appear in the car after all. He says nothing yet continues to train.

It be insteresting for him to return everyone agrees - but has something "broken" in the way that Prost discovered [when trying to return a second time] for Ferrari or can he be like Lauda and return to become a champion once again?

[ioan]

Since when? That's not Raikonnen. Raikonnen doesn't care. His teammate is and has always been incidental to him. He is there for himself and the team and everyone else can fit in or not - thats up to them.

Alsonso is entirely different. He will attempt to dominate the team and unless Massa acquieces to that he will begin a campaign to undermine Massa's confidence.

You may believe that Massa is a championship force but should Alonso join Ferrari, exactly how is he going to beat him in a straight fight?

Maybe you missed that Felipe beat Kimi and he came only one point short of Hamilton who beat Alonso one season earlier.
You may not want to admit it but he is naturally a very gifted and very fast driver. he's always been like that, only needed to iron out his impatience and get some experience, which he did in 2003 when he was the Ferrari test driver, and after that he beat all his team mates but MS.
Alonso is fast too, but IMO he's not as gifted as Massa and he needs to work more to get the same results as Felipe.
He might have dominated Felipe a few years ago, but that's history now.

Also Felipe is the team leader in the Ferrari team, no matter how you look at it, the teams just loves him, and after his HungarianGP accident they will be even more affectionate to him when he comes back.
So Alonso will have to fight very hard in order not be broken, again.



Schumacher could not even manage that and it wore the great driver down right into retirement.

Manage what? :confused:

Did I miss something and MS was team mate with FA?!

Or are are you one of those who stupidly think that Schumacher retired because Alonso won the WDC in 2006? :laugh:
Maybe you can explain why he did announce his retirement a handfull of races before the end of teh season at a point when he and Alonso were pretty much equal in the WDC?! I really want to see what your explanation is for this!

[ioan]

Indeed - trouble for Shumacher if he tries anything.

Alonso is a driver that Schumacher has never overcome in a championship battle and they both know it.

:rotflmao:

We got a Alonso fanboy, who for whatever reason hates Schumacher! I feel we aren't going to miss the laughs with this guy! :D

[F1boat]

For now I value Kimi as more successful in Ferrari than Massa, because Kimi is a WDC, Massa is not. However, Felipe is a brilliant driver and, as he managed to fare well against Kimi, he will do well against Fernando as well.
This could prove not too important, however, because I think that tough times are ahead of Ferrari now, while McLaren will rise IMO.

[pino]

Please let's not turn this into another Schumacher thread...thanks !

[Sleeper]

The only thing I've got to add is does any one else notice how Raikkonen is driving the wheels of that Ferrari recently?

[Ranger]

The only thing I've got to add is does any one else notice how Raikkonen is driving the wheels of that Ferrari recently?

...But how can we tell?

Every driver would 'drive the wheels off' their car when they have don't have even a half-decent team-mate or none at all.

[jens]

For now I value Kimi as more successful in Ferrari than Massa, because Kimi is a WDC, Massa is not.

Extremely simplistic way to look at things. If Hamilton's gearbox (?) hadn't stopped functioning for a moment (07) and/or the rain hadn't come down so hard (08) - two moments which had nothing to do with driver skills - the statistics would look very different. Kimi was WDC and Massa was not, because KR had more luck in the decisive phase of the season, not because he drove better.

And I don't understand, why Massa's chances are downplayed in a (possible) battle against Alonso (especially by Saint Devote, it seems). Before 2007 it was said that KR will mop the floor with FM, but so much about that. I thought people have already learnt a lesson, but it looks like not really... well, let's wait for another lesson then. :s mokin:

[jens]

The only thing I've got to add is does any one else notice how Raikkonen is driving the wheels of that Ferrari recently?

Like DexDexter wrote in another thread - perception is everything. ;)

[gloomyDAY]

Sutil is German too and he's a team player also and on top of that he and Lewsi are very good friends!Who do you rate as a better driver? Heidfeld or Sutil? Forget the fact that both are German, but just look at their on-track performances. Heidfeld is never going to be a champion, but he can definitely play second fiddle. McLaren want to win the constructors as well and I don't think Sutil will fit into that picture.

My choice would be a clear #2: Heidfeld.

[ioan]

Who do you rate as a better driver? Heidfeld or Sutil?

I rate Heidfeld very high and that's a reason not to want him in that 2nd McLaren. ;)

[Saint Devote]

:rotflmao:

We got a Alonso fanboy, who for whatever reason hates Schumacher! I feel we aren't going to miss the laughs with this guy! :D

You really have no answers do you?

You frequently mock and insult people here [and you are permitted by the moderators to get away with it] and make ridiculous statements such as the above comment you wrote.

But the bottom line is that you have no answers.

[Saint Devote]

Extremely simplistic way to look at things. If Hamilton's gearbox (?) hadn't stopped functioning for a moment (07) and/or the rain hadn't come down so hard (08) - two moments which had nothing to do with driver skills - the statistics would look very different. Kimi was WDC and Massa was not, because KR had more luck in the decisive phase of the season, not because he drove better.

And I don't understand, why Massa's chances are downplayed in a (possible) battle against Alonso (especially by Saint Devote, it seems). Before 2007 it was said that KR will mop the floor with FM, but so much about that. I thought people have already learnt a lesson, but it looks like not really... well, let's wait for another lesson then. :s mokin:

Raikonnen is different is my point as far as being a teammate.

Kimi, doesnt care who his teammate is. He has ironclad self-esteem and thats it - he races for himself and keeps to himself.

Alonso on the other hand would seek to be the top in the team and this would require making Massa an adversary. He would launch a psychological war against Massa and that would be the end.

Just look at how upset Alonso became when Dennis refused to recognize a championship status for him and he had a rookie driver that could match him and was already in the Mclaren culture.

Dennis made a mistake and it cost Mclaren a championship. Thats Alonso - ask Flavio!

[F1boat]

Extremely simplistic way to look at things. If Hamilton's gearbox (?) hadn't stopped functioning for a moment (07) and/or the rain hadn't come down so hard (08)

And what if Max hadn't attacked Lewis after Spa? This is endless game, my friend. What happened, happened. Kimi is champion. Massa is not, I hope he will fix that. But until that, Kimi is the more successful driver.

[ioan]

You really have no answers do you?

Short of calling you something you wouldn't be happy with I don't see what other answer you want to the rubbish you posted.

I'm still waiting for your explanation as to why MS decide to retire 5 races before the end of the season when he had as many chances to win, or more, as Alonso had.

I see you got no answer to that, so I stay by my point, you're just a Schumacher hater and a typical Alonso fanboy! :wave:

[jens]

Alonso on the other hand would seek to be the top in the team and this would require making Massa an adversary. He would launch a psychological war against Massa and that would be the end.

Just look at how upset Alonso became when Dennis refused to recognize a championship status for him and he had a rookie driver that could match him and was already in the Mclaren culture.

Dennis made a mistake and it cost Mclaren a championship. Thats Alonso - ask Flavio!

I'm not sure Alonso would win a "psychological war" against Massa. Alonso certainly didn't win that one against Hamilton. If anything, Alonso can be vulnerable if he has a really fast team-mate alongside him. But we will see.