OFFICIAL: Renault to race at Valencia after appeal win

[Giuseppe F1]

Renault to race at Valencia after appeal

By Steven English
Monday, August 17th 2009, 15:33 GMT

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77736

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Pat Symonds and Steve Nielsen at the Court of Appeal hearing in ParisRenault will race in the European Grand Prix this weekend after the FIA Court of Appeal overturned the team's one-race suspension today.

The team claimed at today's hearing in Paris that there was no conscious wrongdoing when Fernando Alonso was released from his first pit stop in the Hungarian Grand Prix before his right front wheel was properly attached.

It also argued that the only people who knew about the error were the mechanics working on that wheel, and that they were unable to inform any team personnel on the pitwall to warn Alonso before the wheel detached.

Renault admitted in the hearing that it had breached the regulations in releasing Alonso when it was unsafe to do so, but requested that the severity of the punishment be reconsidered.

The court decided to uphold Renault's appeal against the one-race ban imposed by the race stewards, and instead issued a reprimand and imposed a $50,000 fine.

An FIA statement added that the full reasons for the decision will be released in the coming days.

[christophulus]

I'm going to wait and see what reason they give for allowing it. At the moment though, the TV coverage seems to be enough to incriminate them.

To me, this U-turn is a complete joke (pending further evidence).

[ioan]

Another double of an existing thread. :\

[Sonic]

Thank you FIA for wasting all our time! A total knee jerk reaction at the time and now with the benefit of a few weeks to mull it over they have remembered that this is a racing series. And that in racing mistakes happen. Perhaps someone in power will realise this makes F1 look a bit silly with all these daft rulings and often even dafter FIA interventions.

[DexDexter]

Surprise Surprise, we all knew that this was going to happen. Now let's forget the whole thing and move on :rolleyes:

[keysersoze]

Wow, from race ban to, by F1 standards, a paltry $50K penalty. Talk about a turnaround!

Looks like new boy Grosjean will start sooner than expected.

[JasonD]

We all know a race ban was far to extreme for this, a fine of $50,000 is far more appropriate and fair.

[ioan]

We all know a race ban was far to extreme for this, a fine of $50,000 is far more appropriate and fair.

And next time when a wheel come of and kills someone what will the fine be? 100000? Sounds fair isn't it?! :rolleyes:

[jeff8407]

I agree the the one race suspension was an excessive penalty. But, the FIA look like fools by now imposing a 50K penalty. I see it as a judge imposing a year's jail sentence, then releasing someone ORO.

[Dave B]

The only thing they're consistent on is being inconsistent :rolleyes:

[ClarkFan]

Wow, the FIA really like to keep us guessing.. Will they enforce the rules, won't they? :p

I wonder if Max asked his wife to come up with this one...

Well, it wouldn't be his favorite dominatrix. She would say, "Make them feel the pain!"


:p

ClarkFan

[Sonic]

And next time when a wheel come of and kills someone what will the fine be? 100000? Sounds fair isn't it?! :rolleyes:

You seem to be taking this a bit far. I think it would be fair to say there is at least one instance of a fluffed pitstop per year (wheel nut wise) and occasionally one of those gets released onto the track in error, and I can't remember such a fuss being made about them.

The bottom line is there was no intentional malice and as its hardly uncommon for a car to leave the pits with something hanging off it why should this time be treated differently?

[truefan72]

Thank you FIA for wasting all our time! A total knee jerk reaction at the time and now with the benefit of a few weeks to mull it over they have remembered that this is a racing series. And that in racing mistakes happen. Perhaps someone in power will realise this makes F1 look a bit silly with all these daft rulings and often even dafter FIA interventions.

well said.

$50K is about right, maybe more if they really want to make a point. But the race ban was just ludicrous. I hope that with the incoming new administration, they will shed some of this incompetence that runs rampant at the FIA. That's the other side of MM dismal reign that gets far to little attention, but is equally as flawed.

[UltimateDanGTR]

And next time when a wheel come of and kills someone what will the fine be? 100000? Sounds fair isn't it?! :rolleyes:

agreed. as much as i dont want their to just be 18 cars in valencia and a ban on any team, renault did wrong and endangered the lives of other drivers. such stupinity should be punished, and yet again, it bearly has.... :rolleyes:

well done FIA, useless imbeciles......

[JasonD]

And next time when a wheel come of and kills someone what will the fine be? 100000? Sounds fair isn't it?! :rolleyes:

And suspending them for a race prevents another tire from flying off just how?

[ioan]

And suspending them for a race prevents another tire from flying off just how?

Well, you see, if they don't race than the chance of a tire flying off will be reduced by 10%.

Another question?!

P: They were punished because they made a mistake not because this will automatically improve teh quality of their wheel assembly! :rolleyes:

[I am evil Homer]

You seem to be taking this a bit far. I think it would be fair to say there is at least one instance of a fluffed pitstop per year (wheel nut wise) and occasionally one of those gets released onto the track in error, and I can't remember such a fuss being made about them.

The bottom line is there was no intentional malice and as its hardly uncommon for a car to leave the pits with something hanging off it why should this time be treated differently?

Because an F2 driver died the week before and the day before Massa was put in hospital. Why take the risk....everyone on TV could see the disc was loose...yet Renault didn't?

No malice was involved but they were negligent. This decision sends all the wrong messages.

A new rule is needed. You lose a wheel, park it up as Renault seemed to use Vettel as an example.

[ioan]

No malice was involved but they were negligent. This decision sends all the wrong messages.

Exactly.
However it looks like a human life or the possibility of saving human lives is less important than seeing a favorite driver or team compete. To me the society seems to be going the wrong way, the way of living for the circus (show in this case) instead of living for the life!

[BDunnell]

Because an F2 driver died the week before and the day before Massa was put in hospital.

I don't want to go through the same arguments as we had before, but these two incidents should in no way have influenced the stewards' decision, because they were utterly unrelated to what happened with Alonso, yet they clearly did. Therefore the ban was, in my opinion, totally unjustified.

[driveace]

Every body on here knew that this was going to be overturned.How could they ban Alonso from his home track?
They issued the ban ,then realized they had made a mistake as it was Alonso,s home race,had it have been at the race before say Spa then I feel that the ban would not have been recinded

[BDunnell]

Exactly.
However it looks like a human life or the possibility of saving human lives is less important than seeing a favorite driver or team compete. To me the society seems to be going the wrong way, the way of living for the circus (show in this case) instead of living for the life!

ioan, I say again that it is impossible to remove every potential risk from F1, as it is in life, and that seeking to do so is potentially very counter-productive. But I think we've been here before.

[ioan]

ioan, I say again that it is impossible to remove every potential risk from F1, as it is in life, and that seeking to do so is potentially very counter-productive. But I think we've been here before.

And I say it again just because we can't remove each and every risk in F1 or in life it doesn't mean that we should give up and watch someone being killed just because Alonso is someone's favorite driver.

[BDunnell]

And I say it again just because we can't remove each and every risk in F1 or in life it doesn't mean that we should give up and watch someone being killed just because Alonso is someone's favorite driver.

It's not about favourites. It's about a sensible reaction, and seeking to minimise risk while at the same time accepting the fact — because that is what it is — that risk can never be eliminated completely from every activity in which people participate.

[BDunnell]

Oh, and neither do I understand how the decision could ever be seen to 'send the wrong message' to other teams. This is meaningless sloganising nonsense, in my view. It's only worth sending out a message against doing something if people actively want to do it. F1 won't suddenly be filled with teams wanting bits to fall off their cars as a result of Renault's ban being rescinded.

[christophulus]

It's not about favourites. It's about a sensible reaction, and seeking to minimise risk while at the same time accepting the fact — because that is what it is — that risk can never be eliminated completely from every activity in which people participate.

Of course motorsport cannot be 100% safe, and Renault didn't intentionally fail to secure the wheel.

Regardless, in this case it was their negligence that got them punished, not the actual fact of the wheel coming off. The mechanics didn't tell their superiors that the wheel was loose - that's a sackable offence in many jobs, you can't just carry on as normal if you know a machine is defective, which is exactly what happened.

"If" the wheel had killed someone that would be a criminal offence - as I mentioned in the other thread the mechanics blatantly knew the wheel was loose. The least that should come out of this is an instant change in the rules so the teams can't let it happen again.

[ioan]

According to some around here if a F1 driver is negligent and t-bones another car during the race than they should get of with a monetary fine!
Sorry about being rude but I find this kind of 'money should buy everything thinking' plain stupid and totally unethical.

[BDunnell]

According to some around here if a F1 driver is negligent and t-bones another car during the race than they should get of with a monetary fine!
Sorry about being rude but I find this kind of 'money should buy everything thinking' plain stupid and totally unethical.

Following on from this, I take it you are alone in believing that the way in which the Italians always start a criminal investigation into fatal F1 accidents occurring on their soil is sensible and appropriate? Almost everyone else would consider it heavy-handed and unnecessary, as well as a waste of legal time, it being so unlikely to ever lead to a safe conviction.

[ioan]

Following on from this, I take it you are alone in believing that the way in which the Italians always start a criminal investigation into fatal F1 accidents occurring on their soil is sensible and appropriate?

I doubt I'm alone, but I can't do anything about your need to generalize.
What is so wrong about starting a criminal investigation into a fatal accident, especially when the circumstances aren't exactly obvious?

[BDunnell]

I doubt I'm alone, but I can't do anything about your need to generalize.
What is so wrong about starting a criminal investigation into a fatal accident, especially when the circumstances aren't exactly obvious?

Because it goes against all common sense. Italy is one of the very few countries to have such laws. This tells its own story.

[JasonD]

Well, you see, if they don't race than the chance of a tire flying off will be reduced by 10%.

Another question?!

P: They were punished because they made a mistake not because this will automatically improve teh quality of their wheel assembly! :rolleyes:

10% chance eh? wow, I think you sould whip out the caluclator and do that analysis over again and no I wont do it for you. :rolleyes:


So in your opinion they should have been banned. Is it because $50,000 is to little, seriously I am curious. If they were made to hand over whatever they would have earned that weekeend would that of sufficed? Or would no amount have been acceptable?

[Sonic]

Regardless, in this case it was their negligence that got them punished, not the actual fact of the wheel coming off. The mechanics didn't tell their superiors that the wheel was loose - that's a sackable offence in many jobs, you can't just carry on as normal if you know a machine is defective, which is exactly what happened.

Now we're are in the very murky area of total guess work. Can you show me proof that the mechanic did not inform his boss? I postulate that the wheel man did indeed tell the chief mechanic that the wheel might be loose but by the time that was reported to the pit wall Alonso's wheel had already come off. Who's right? Who knows? But I refuse to believe that a team would risk their driver on a whim.

[BDunnell]

So in your opinion they should have been banned. Is it because $50,000 is to little, seriously I am curious. If they were made to hand over whatever they would have earned that weekeend would that of sufficed? Or would no amount have been acceptable?

As has been pointed out, there is no common sense, let alone justice, in the fines levied within F1. Compare them with 'real-world' payouts or fines in relation to far worse misdemeanours — yes, some people ought to become aware that cheating in a sport is not comparable with, say, corporate manslaughter — and any sense of proportion goes out of the window.

[CNR]

Q: they get the live tv feed on pit wall
http://blogf1.co.uk/images/posts/Renault/2008/Monza-001.jpg

[ioan]

10% chance eh? wow, I think you sould whip out the caluclator and do that analysis over again and no I wont do it for you. :rolleyes:

Maybe you should revisit Maths in elementary school, eh?!



So in your opinion they should have been banned. Is it because $50,000 is to little, seriously I am curious. If they were made to hand over whatever they would have earned that weekeend would that of sufficed? Or would no amount have been acceptable?

It's because the day everyone can buy themselves out of a ban there will be no more use for the rule book. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Now we're are in the very murky area of total guess work. Can you show me proof that the mechanic did not inform his boss?

Why do you ask a fellow forum member something like this?! :confused:
You should go back and read the stewards press release after the Hungarian GP, it's all in it, black on white.

[yodasarmpit]

Thank you FIA for wasting all our time! A total knee jerk reaction at the time and now with the benefit of a few weeks to mull it over they have remembered that this is a racing series. And that in racing mistakes happen. Perhaps someone in power will realise this makes F1 look a bit silly with all these daft rulings and often even dafter FIA interventions.
^^^

[Somebody]

I agree with Joe Saward on this (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/an-odd-decision/). Overturning the ban is ludicrous - it's not even just driver safety, it's not a million years since a tyre flew over the catch fencing and killed someone at Melbourne.

The offence wasn't the mistake, it was not telling him to park it ASAP. Doubly so after the hub flew off.

[Saint Devote]

Excellent news.

No Alonso AND no Schumi - the grand prix would have been as sparsely attended as at Istanbul Park!

The penalty was extreme - anyone spectating understands that there are risks - it says so on the tickets! - and could not want a team suspended.

Welcome back Alonso and we get to see Grosjean! Superb! :-]

[ioan]

anyone spectating understands that there are risks ...

Especially if Renault are around! :laugh:

[Saint Devote]

Especially if Renault are around! :laugh:

To wit!

[leopard]

This means we will see the grid takers on complete form, good news.

[christophulus]

Now we're are in the very murky area of total guess work. Can you show me proof that the mechanic did not inform his boss? I postulate that the wheel man did indeed tell the chief mechanic that the wheel might be loose but by the time that was reported to the pit wall Alonso's wheel had already come off. Who's right? Who knows? But I refuse to believe that a team would risk their driver on a whim.

We are indeed, thanks to no evidence being forthcoming from the FIA...

I just find it hard to accept that the mechanic couldn't nip over to the pitwall straight away, or radio them. It's the width of a pitlane away - a few seconds walk - and Alonso's wheel was on for at least a minute before it flew off (turn 10-ish?)

[Sonic]

We are indeed, thanks to no evidence being forthcoming from the FIA...

I just find it hard to accept that the mechanic couldn't nip over to the pitwall straight away, or radio them. It's the width of a pitlane away - a few seconds walk - and Alonso's wheel was on for at least a minute before it flew off (turn 10-ish?)

There is no doubt a chain of command. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight the wheel man should have gone straight to the pit wall and told them. Clearly that didn't happen, which hopefully they (and other teams) can learn from and adjust their procedures accordingly.

As for the FIA, I totally agree with you! Why oh why are we still in the dark about this? I know they say they will release all the evidence shortly, but why is it taking so long?

[Big Ben]

My question is whether there is a rule for the initial penalty. Is there? And if there is what happened last year when kimi's car was desintegrating in race?

[truefan72]

My question is whether there is a rule for the initial penalty. Is there? And if there is what happened last year when kimi's car was desintegrating in race?

good points

this was not the first time a driver had a loose wheel or had to somehow make it back to the pits with some damage or a missing wheel. It is the first time though that a team gets banned for a race for what amounts to a team mistake, costly one too, for the leading car in the race. A complete overreaction by the FIA and some here on this forum. The gray line and precedent it sets were going to be so ridiculous that the FIA temporarily came to their senses. By those former standards, almost any incident could be deemed worthy of a race ban.

If this incident scare the heck out of those folks, I advise them to give up watching F1, because there will continue to be incidents.

[BDunnell]

My question is whether there is a rule for the initial penalty. Is there? And if there is what happened last year when kimi's car was desintegrating in race?

In the case of that incident, if it's the same one as I'm thinking of, a lot of people applauded him for trying to carry on. Although we no longer have the old forum to refer to, I'm sure some of those individuals are the same people who are now saying that the Renault penalty was justified.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Well, you see, if they don't race than the chance of a tire flying off will be reduced by 10%.



Sorry Ioan but this is possible the most stupid post i've ever read on this forum.

You say F1 can be 100% safe and you have just argued that risk will be reduced by 10% by eliminating one team. So by your logic to reduce the risk in F1 by 100% we should eliminate 10 teams?

Great thinking!

And you call yourself an F1 fan?

:rolleyes:

[Easy Drifter]

Mistakes in pit stops have always happened and always will, especially as teams try to shave split seconds off the time spent in the pits. You see mistakes in every series where there are stops.
Were not Ferrari's screw ups last year with the electronic pit release just as dangerous?
Alonso would have known something was wrong before he lost the wheel even without a radio call. He would have felt it and probably figured out exactly what and which wheel!
Even if he had been warned, he is a racer and would have kept going to try and get back to the pits for a fix. That is what racers do!!
Ioan you are, I know, a keen fan but you do not understand racing and the mentality and drive of the people involved.
There are a few people who drive in races that are not racers. They don't make it to F1.

[JasonD]

Maybe you should revisit Maths in elementary school, eh?!

It's because the day everyone can buy themselves out of a ban there will be no more use for the rule book. :rolleyes:

Give me a break, I cant even argue the math with you because obviously you have no idea what statistics are so I'll move on.




And just where do race bans stop then?

What if a driver does a stupid mistake and rams into a tire barrier and parts fly all over the place, stupid mistake that he could have prevented but should the team be banned for a race?

What if the pit crew didnt refuel the car properly and they run out of gas, then the car because a slow moving chicane, should they be banned for a race because of the danger?

[Sonic]

Mistakes in pit stops have always happened and always will, especially as teams try to shave split seconds off the time spent in the pits. You see mistakes in every series where there are stops.

And it will only get worse next year when the length of the tire change will define the length of the pitstop.

Also I completely agree with you about the racers instinct. Alonso knew, he even said he could see the spinner rotating and he decide to try and get back.

[christophulus]

And it will only get worse next year when the length of the tire change will define the length of the pitstop.

With the amount of problems the spinners have caused in terms of time lost at pitstops, wouldn't it be sensible to either ban them or just not use them next year? They can't be reducing the dirty air coming off the cars either.

[ioan]

Sorry Ioan but this is possible the most stupid post i've ever read on this forum.

You say F1 can be 100% safe and you have just argued that risk will be reduced by 10% by eliminating one team. So by your logic to reduce the risk in F1 by 100% we should eliminate 10 teams?

Great thinking!

And you call yourself an F1 fan?

:rolleyes:

Well, maybe you should join Jason D back in a maths course!
You obviously have no idea about what probabilities mean and how they are calculated.

TBH if the average F1 fan is as intelligent as you are than maybe I should join a football forum. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Give me a break

:laugh:

There you go! :)

[JasonD]

Well, maybe you should join Jason D back in a maths course!
You obviously have no idea about what probabilities mean and how they are calculated.

Obviously neither do you. :p :

[Sonic]

TBH if the average F1 fan is as intelligent as you are than maybe I should join a football forum. :rolleyes:

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Sonic]

Well, maybe you should join Jason D back in a maths course!
You obviously have no idea about what probabilities mean and how they are calculated.

TBH if the average F1 fan is as intelligent as you are than maybe I should join a football forum. :rolleyes:

Noooooooooooooooooooooo! :D

[Easy Drifter]

Just what makes you think you are so intelligent Ioan?
You are sure coming across as an intellectual snob. As I have said before: You are a super fan but have absolutely no comprehension of what racing is all about and, except that is impossible, absolutely no idea of what makes the people involved tick.
Everyone really involved and working in pro motor racing is passionate about it and they have and do make all sorts of sacrifices to be involved. Huge work hours, lack of family life and in many case any life outside of racing.
You have already indicated that you can't understand that dedication and that is why you really do not understand the sport or those involved.

Here is an example. Gilles Villeneuve had 2 first mortgages on his mobile home. It is almost impossible to get a mtge. on a mobile home and he somehow had two firsts. The steps were concrete blocks. The plumbing froze every winter.
In 1975 he, Joann, young Jacques, Melanie and a mechanic plus their dog travelled to races across Canada in an ordinary van and lived in it most of the time. No money and eating crap food.
That is the type of person a dedicated racer is. He survived on his winnings. His first win was at Gimli. By then they were so broke the others in the paddock were talking of trying to collect enough money to get him to the next race at Mosport over a 1000 mile away. Winning gave him enough money to continue.

[Knock-on]

I can recommend 3 if you like?
1) Millwall FC
2) West Ham FC
3) Cardiff City FC

I'm sure they'll love you on there ;)
Make sure you tell them you are a Manchester United fan once you have joined :p

Only joshin

Or Bristol City.

I could just imagine him argueing that it really wasn't a goal in the first place :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/crystal_palace/8204073.stm

[ioan]

You are sure coming across as an intellectual snob.

:D

[ioan]

I can recommend 3 if you like?
1) Millwall FC
2) West Ham FC
3) Cardiff City FC

I'm sure they'll love you on there ;)
Make sure you tell them you are a Manchester United fan once you have joined :p

Only joshin

I was jokin' too! ;)

[F1boat]

Surprise Surprise, we all knew that this was going to happen. Now let's forget the whole thing and move on :rolleyes:

well said.

[leopard]

The race ban for Renault was basically incoherence, I didn't say it jokingly, it was mindful...

[christophulus]

The FIA has released its reasoning on the decision. Finally!

http://fia.com/en-GB/the-fia/court_appeal/judgments/Documents/170809-ICA-Decision-en.pdf

[christophulus]

In summary:

- Renault didn't know that just because the spinner wasn't attached, the wheel was also loose, and wouldn't have sent a car out with three wheels (hardly a good strategy)

- Even though Renault knew the spinner wasn't attached they let Alonso go. They failed to tell Alonso of the risk of a loose wheel or tell him to park the car, and by the time they knew of the risk he'd already said he was returning to the pits with a suspected puncture (I think this is what resulted in the fine)

- They argued the one race ban was excessive based on previous incidents (Vettel in Australia I assume), and had letters of support from Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and Toyota saying they had altered their procedures in light of this.

In short, it was an accident rather than deliberately causing danger so the court thinks a fine would be more appropriate.

[Sonic]

Thank you FIA for finally turning the lights on!

It seems that the FIA have come to the correct verdict and have echoed the reasonable arguments put forward by most here on the forum; Renault did nothing deliberate, and a lesson has been learnt.

Now Let's go racin'!!

[leopard]

FIA has performed the role arbitrating the issue appropriately if in fact the accident has driven complaints from teams about their concern on safety. And a constructive decision already taken.

Red Bull shouldn't launch too much complaint on Renault if they are engaged in partnership of engine supply :D

[christophulus]

Thank you FIA for finally turning the lights on!

It seems that the FIA have come to the correct verdict and have echoed the reasonable arguments put forward by most here on the forum; Renault did nothing deliberate, and a lesson has been learnt.

Now Let's go racin'!!

I always said my arguments were provisional until I'd heard the reasoning. Now I have, I agree that the FIA has done the right thing (eventually).

The important thing is that the teams change procedures so this cannot happen again - thankfully that looks to be the case.

[ioan]

In summary:

- Renault didn't know that just because the spinner wasn't attached, the wheel was also loose, and wouldn't have sent a car out with three wheels (hardly a good strategy)

- Even though Renault knew the spinner wasn't attached they let Alonso go. They failed to tell Alonso of the risk of a loose wheel or tell him to park the car, and by the time they knew of the risk he'd already said he was returning to the pits with a suspected puncture (I think this is what resulted in the fine)

- They argued the one race ban was excessive based on previous incidents (Vettel in Australia I assume), and had letters of support from Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and Toyota saying they had altered their procedures in light of this.

In short, it was an accident rather than deliberately causing danger so the court thinks a fine would be more appropriate.

Why fine them it was was an accident and they were doing nothing wrong?! :confused:

This is all a laughable try to hide that they are more interested in the commercial side than the sporting one. :down:

[truefan72]

Why fine them it was was an accident and they were doing nothing wrong?! :confused:

This is all a laughable try to hide that they are more interested in the commercial side than the sporting one. :down:

give it a rest ioan

in the face of a logical and reasonable explanation from the fIA you still keep harping on?

I'm sure if were ferrari and massa who would be exonerated in this circumstance you would be singing the praises of the FIA.

conversely, should Ferrari have received a 1 race ban last year when massa was driving down pit lane with half a fuel rig attached to his car? could have come off ignited somehow and caused a major incident...could have happened. I guess in your world, that's a one race ban and makes the sport 10% safer right?

[ioan]

give it a rest ioan

Cause you say so?! :laugh:

[Easy Drifter]

F1 is not amatuer, after you Alphonse.
It is a big, multi million dollar business just as NFL football is, just as NASCAR is and Major League baseball.
Renault are in it to sell cars, not for Olympic type amatuer glory.
Same with the other manufactures and all the sponsors.
Take off your rose tinted academic glasses ioan and see the real gritty world.

[schmenke]

Why fine them it was was an accident and they were doing nothing wrong?! :confused: ...

It wasn't an accident, it was an avoidable incident due to poor performance by the pit crew. Allowing it to go unpunished would set a precedent that sloppy pit performance causing a potential accident is acceptable in the sport.

[ioan]

It wasn't an accident, it was an avoidable incident due to poor performance by the pit crew. Allowing it to go unpunished would set a precedent that sloppy pit performance causing a potential accident is acceptable in the sport.

But 50000 USD, paid by a team that has hundreds of millions at disposal, won't help the matters, just like a speeding ticket for someone doing 100mph will change nothing if he's left with his driving license.

[Easy Drifter]

So? :confused:

[schmenke]

But 50000 USD, paid by a team that has hundreds of millions at disposal, won't help the matters, ....

Yes it will. The monetary value of the penalty is immaterial. The negative publicity that the team has imparted on their sponsors is far more damaging than any monetary fine.
The team, and the entire sporting community, recognizes that they screwed up and will take measures to ensure that this kind of incident does not happen again, so the penalty, no matter how paltry, has served its purpose.

[WSRfan82]

its rubbish. why ban them then turn it over?

in my personal view Renault should of excepted the the punishment of a one race ban whether it was Alonsos home race or not. them fighting for the ban to be dropped is like saying sorry we don't think we did anything wrong....which is wrong in itself after what happened to Henry Surtees.

[christophulus]

It wasn't an accident, it was an avoidable incident due to poor performance by the pit crew. Allowing it to go unpunished would set a precedent that sloppy pit performance causing a potential accident is acceptable in the sport.

Well said. A ban would only have been reasonable if they had known full well the wheel was loose but sent Alonso out anyway - i.e. they had actively made a dangerous car rejoin the race. Thinking about it no team would deliberately release a car with three wheels, if nothing else it's hardly going to be as quick as a four-wheeled car!

The important thing is that other teams have changed their procedures - no team could use the excuse of not knowing the wheel could come off thanks to the precedent set in this case, so I would assume they'll be extra careful in future.

[ioan]

The monetary value of the penalty is immaterial.

Why impose a fine then? A harsh press release would have achieved the same result.

[Easy Drifter]

The rules do not provide for a harsh press release as a penalty nor would the public preception be the same.
There was a screwup. There is no question there.
Therefore a penalty is required, although other, just as dangerous foul ups have not drawn penalties. That is a FIA problem that needs to be corrected.
I do not want go get sidetracked into that here.
The question was the severity of the initial penalty, for what was a mistake, not a deliberate attemp to hurt someone.
In my opinion the initial penalty was a knee jerk reaction to two totally unrelated accidents that occurred in close proximity to each other.
We all know that the Stewarts' decisions over the last few years have been totally inconsistent and have on occasion been in conflict with the actual rulebook.

[ioan]

The rules do not provide for a harsh press release as a penalty nor would the public preception be the same.

The rules probably don't provide for 50.000 USD penalty either.

[Robinho]

actually i understand that he maximum fine allowable in these case is the £30,000/$50,000 as handed out in Aus to Vettel/Red Bull and now to Alonso/Renault.

[truefan72]

Cause you say so?! :laugh:

wow what a response. typical

avoid the question, and go straight to pettiness

you seem incapable of providing an answer on whether massa/ferrari should have been banned for 1 race for the pitlane fuelrig fiasco last year. Could have ignited and caused a major situation. Or kimi at magny cours.

but I'm sure I won't get an answer, just more of the same

[ioan]

wow what a response. typical

avoid the question, and go straight to pettiness

you seem incapable of providing an answer on whether massa/ferrari should have been banned for 1 race for the pitlane fuelrig fiasco last year. Could have ignited and caused a major situation. Or kimi at magny cours.

but I'm sure I won't get an answer, just more of the same

That's because there was nothing to answer.
However because you insist I will answer your 'questions':

1. As far as I remember Massa didn't rejoin the track with the fuel rig attached to the car, he stopped at the end of the pit lane and waited until the problem was solved.
Good enough answer for ya?! :rolleyes:

2. I also stated in the thread after Massa's Hungaroring accident that Ferrari should have stopped Kimi or removed the part last year in Magny Cours.

Any other petty questions?!

[Easy Drifter]

Makes perfect sense to ioan.
We have a mistake by a Ferrari crew that could have killed or injured people in the pit lane or in the stands above.
We have a mistake by a Renault crew that could have killed or injured people out on the track.
Two totally different scenarios.
Yeah right!!!!

[ioan]

Makes perfect sense to ioan.
We have a mistake by a Ferrari crew that could have killed or injured people in the pit lane or in the stands above.

And probably also the TV viewers, going by your logic. :rolleyes:
Your post is laughable at best.

[ioan]

This is a very good point actually and one I hadn't thought of myself. Both dangerous situations which could have resulted in loss of life, yet treated totally differently. Its also funny how different fans see these two incidences when its their own favourites in the wrong. :)

Yeah, both dangerous situations treated differently by the teams too. One team let the driver go back on track while the other driver stopped in the pit lane in order for the mechanics to fix the problem.

As you say totally different.

[JasonD]

...

Huh? What? Did someone say something? Oh never mind. :s nore:

[ioan]

Different in that case yeah I will agree, but I was thinking also about the danger in the pitlane to the personnel that were potentially covered in fuel and passed as FM made his way to the end. Not Felipe's fault but a dangerous mistake none the less.. Very different in outcome, but very similar in where they occurred. How it can be said the Renault mistake was more dangerous is ludicrous.. Both dangerous situations..

The reason why Renault were in trouble isn't because they made a mistake, we all do, but because they failed to react properly to the situation they created.
IMO what happened to Massa last season was handled the right way and thus it makes it a totally different situation no matter what some people (not you) want to make it look like by spinning facts to suit their biased view.

[ioan]

Huh? What? Did someone say something? Oh never mind. :s nore:

I hear you didn't make it to your math classes, again. :p

[Sonic]

Are we all still at this?? :rolleyes:

Come on boys there's a race on.... :p :

[schmenke]

The reason why Renault were in trouble isn't because they made a mistake, we all do, but because they failed to react properly to the situation they created.
IMO what happened to Massa last season was handled the right way and thus it makes it a totally different situation no matter what some people (not you) want to make it look like by spinning facts to suit their biased view.


ioan, you're missing the point. In both cases there was a foul-up by the pit crew which casued a situation that potentially endagered others. In both cases the foul-up was handled differently by the FIA.

[ioan]

ioan, you're missing the point. In both cases there was a foul-up by the pit crew which casued a situation that potentially endagered others. In both cases the foul-up was handled differently by the FIA.

I'm not missing the point at all.
The FIA made it clear that the problem was with the team sending the car back on track with a technical problem, they didn't say that they were fined because they had an equipment malfunction.
It would be ludicrous to fine a team just because a wheel not got cross threaded or such.

The FIA handled the situations differently because the teams also took different measures to solve the problem, quite obviously as one car went back on track with a badly secured wheel while the other stopped in the pit lane and the fault was fixed before it joined the race.

If Massa would have tried to do a lap with the fuel hose attached to the car than I would agree that the situations were similar but differently handled by the FIA, however the situations were different and thus it was normal that they were initially handled differently (even though in the end both teams ended up with the same fine as far as I remember).