The Dumbing Down of America

[SportscarBruce]

There are several influences at work here. Garbage TV, especially news and pop culture. Vaccines preserved with mercury. Contaminated toys, food, water, and air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP6bR7OXuNw

[Roamy]

Yes total coverup by the liars and thieves running our country. Greed Greed Greed. Name on senator who is not a mulit- millionaire.
Yes many of us see the problems - I see the only solution being a extremely strong 3rd political party to make sweeping changes in our deteriorating culture.
Our two party system is totally corrupt and full of liars and thieves. All of our jobs are being outsourced while many of the high tech, engineering and professional positions are being filled with foreigners with H1 Visas. Our education system has been dumbed down to the lowest common student. We have stretched every freedom of the constitution out of bounds to the point where we shelter the enemy from within. Many disgraces for this once proud leading nation who has propped up many countries causing our own demise while our leaders line their pockets.

[Wade91]

well, i dont really see how the news and pop culture here in the US could be concidered garbage,

i've never really seen the flu shot as very nessaceary though, i've never had a flu shot myself :s

as for fluoride, we all brush our teeth with it so i gues we can drink it, i mostly drink disani bottaled bottaled water, but i sometimes use the kitchen fouset as a water founten to get a drink

[steve_spackman]

So you admit you lot are dumb ;)

[Easy Drifter]

I think Wade just proved the point!

[anthonyvop]

I agree that America is getting dumber.

I have even found Americans who actually care what Europeans think....how dumb is that?

[Easy Drifter]

OK Wade. Here is a challenge. Assume I am the editor of a newspaper or racing magazine.
Write me an article of about 500 words on Target Ganassi Racing and your opinion of what they will do next year.
This story has to be basically publication ready without rewrites or major editing.
Can you do it? I want something that is basically print ready. Spelling, punctuation and correct grammar counts.
This is theory, not a realistic exercise. You can use any scenario but need to give reasoning.

As an aside I have been an editor.

[Mark]

So you admit you lot are dumb ;)

But fousto could equally be talking about the UK. It's just the same here!

As for a third party? We'll we've got the Liberal Democrats here and they don't do much good. The repuatation of MP's (rightly or wrongly) is money grabbing rich toffs who have no clue about ordinary people and who think £100,000 a year is living on 'rations'.

[Mark]

as for fluoride, we all brush our teeth with it so i gues we can drink it


Never heard of flouride 'levels'. In high amounts it's absolutely lethal, I'm talking instant death.



i mostly drink disani bottaled bottaled water, but i sometimes use the kitchen fouset as a water founten to get a drink

Why? When Dansai is tap water? You'd get better (and cheaper) results using a Britta filter jug.

[Wade91]

OK Wade. Here is a challenge. Assume I am the editor of a newspaper or racing magazine.
Write me an article of about 500 words on Target Ganassi Racing and your opinion of what they will do next year.
This story has to be basically publication ready without rewrites or major editing.
Can you do it? I want something that is basically print ready. Spelling, punctuation and correct grammar counts.
This is theory, not a realistic exercise. You can use any scenario but need to give reasoning.

As an aside I have been an editor.
i'm to lazy to be doing somthing like that :p , but i happen to have an openion so i fulfilled your request :)

[Wade91]

Never heard of flouride 'levels'. In high amounts it's absolutely lethal, I'm talking instant death.



Why? When Dansai is tap water? You'd get better (and cheaper) results using a Britta filter jug.
becouse i like disani, its the best water in the world :D

[BDunnell]

As for a third party? We'll we've got the Liberal Democrats here and they don't do much good.

Bit of a thoughtless generalisation.

[Jag_Warrior]

i'm to lazy to be doing somthing like that :p , but i happen to have an openion so i fulfilled your request :)

Heading out to the Hamptons this weekend "Wade"?

Seriously, when did you come up with the idea for this game on here? I have to admit, you're good. :s mokin:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Heading out to the Hamptons this weekend "Wade"?

Seriously, when did you come up with the idea for this game on here? I have to admit, you're good. :s mokin:

You almost wonder how anyone could spell THAT badly.....

[Sonic]

Not sure if there is any particular problem with America.

I've met some very smart people from over the pond.

Oh and some not so smart one's: My wife and I met a young lad (15/16) whilst on holiday and got chatting to him and his family. He told us they'd come from Texas in the family RV, and it had taken them something like a 3 day drive. I told him we were from London (closest city to us at the time) and that it had only taken us 8 hours to get there by plane. The lad then asked us why we hadn't driven. I thought he was joking - but he really didn't know there was an Ocean between the two countries! :rolleyes:

[Roamy]

I have met several Euro's that don't even know where the equator is or what it is! But the kid from texas probably could have built that RV himself, While you couldn't even work a wrench! I many cases education is specific to the area of interest.

[Tomi]

I thought he was joking - but he really didn't know there was an Ocean between the two countries! :rolleyes:

You have to forgive the guy, this issue is from the category "common knowledge". ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

I have met several Euro's that don't even know where the equator is or what it is! But the kid from texas probably could have built that RV himself, While you couldn't even work a wrench! I many cases education is specific to the area of interest.

Fousto, I can agree up to a point, but you Yanks are more geographically clueless than any Euro's I have talked to. Just last week, a woman working in a Pilot Truck stop in Sligo KY tried to tell me she used to live in NY State and that she regretted moving to KY because her best friend was living in Vancouver BC and she was farther away. I asked how she figured that ( this all came up because she was happy I was a Canadian and wanted to know how far my drive was to Vancouver). She said she was getting there in 19 hours with her trucking friend. I was floored how she thought she was going to Vancouver. It is 50 hours drive from here, and New York, depending what part of the state she was living in would be farther.

Now that is just one example, and maybe she did some bad drugs somewheres, but American educational leaders have a lot to answer to in my opinion, for when it comes to where the US is in the world, or what it has done in relation to other nations, the knowledge just aint there. I cant count the number of Americans who are shocked that WW2 started before the bombing of Pearl Harbor. It had really started with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and China truth be told, but 1939 for the majority of us. That again is just one example.

I wont say you guys who post here on the board are that naive, and I have a lot of American friends who do understand, but I have seen enough of it spending the time I do down south to know that knowledge of the outer world beyond the US is not there, and I am not shocked by the story of the 16 year old in the RV not grasping the concept of the ocean; my dad as a teen in 1953 saw a car with Virginia plates pull up to the gas station he was working at with skis on the roof looking to do some skiing. This was July and the last I looked, no place in Canada has snow south of Ellesmere Island in July......

[DexDexter]

Fousto, I can agree up to a point, but you Yanks are more geographically clueless than any Euro's I have talked to. Just last week, a woman working in a Pilot Truck stop in Sligo KY tried to tell me she used to live in NY State and that she regretted moving to KY because her best friend was living in Vancouver BC and she was farther away. I asked how she figured that ( this all came up because she was happy I was a Canadian and wanted to know how far my drive was to Vancouver). She said she was getting there in 19 hours with her trucking friend. I was floored how she thought she was going to Vancouver. It is 50 hours drive from here, and New York, depending what part of the state she was living in would be farther.

Now that is just one example, and maybe she did some bad drugs somewheres, but American educational leaders have a lot to answer to in my opinion, for when it comes to where the US is in the world, or what it has done in relation to other nations, the knowledge just aint there. I cant count the number of Americans who are shocked that WW2 started before the bombing of Pearl Harbor. It had really started with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and China truth be told, but 1939 for the majority of us. That again is just one example.

I wont say you guys who post here on the board are that naive, and I have a lot of American friends who do understand, but I have seen enough of it spending the time I do down south to know that knowledge of the outer world beyond the US is not there, and I am not shocked by the story of the 16 year old in the RV not grasping the concept of the ocean; my dad as a teen in 1953 saw a car with Virginia plates pull up to the gas station he was working at with skis on the roof looking to do some skiing. This was July and the last I looked, no place in Canada has snow south of Ellesmere Island in July......

What about Canadians, how aware are you guys of the rest of the world? At least we Finns (many of us) tend to think that you are more aware of things around than your neighbours to the south. Or maybe it's just the hockey thing... :)

[Tomi]

What about Canadians, how aware are you guys of the rest of the world? At least we Finns (many of us) tend to think that you are more aware of things around than your neighbours to the south. Or maybe it's just the hockey thing... :)

I think they are aware of the rest of the world, but the hockey thing then is a different issue, too much standing and waiting in NHL nowdays, in my opinion.

[Sonic]

I have met several Euro's that don't even know where the equator is or what it is! But the kid from texas probably could have built that RV himself, While you couldn't even work a wrench! I many cases education is specific to the area of interest.

Hey dude, no need to make it personal - I was just telling a story which happened to relate to the topic.

BTW I'm quite handy with a wrench :p

[Mark in Oshawa]

What about Canadians, how aware are you guys of the rest of the world? At least we Finns (many of us) tend to think that you are more aware of things around than your neighbours to the south. Or maybe it's just the hockey thing... :)

We as a country are far more outward looking than our American cousins and maybe some Europeans as well. Why? Well there isnt' enough going on IN Canada, so we look outward a lot. Secondly, out of 32 Million people in this country, about 16 Million are either direct immigrants or 2nd Generation. We are probably the most multicultural nation on earth. Add in that the French in Quebec see the world in a far different light than us English Canadians and there is a dynamic tension there and we do look at the world with a much more open view. Our connections historically to the UK as our mother country, France as our surrogate mother country, The US, Australia and NZ as fellow English speaking brothers and our small size in population compared to our neighbour forces us to look outward a lot.

WE are, and I am not sure I am bragging probably the most mellow and understated nation of our size going, and I think that sometimes works against us.....

[SportscarBruce]

Bump

[Jag_Warrior]

Yes total coverup by the liars and thieves running our country. Greed Greed Greed. Name on senator who is not a mulit- millionaire.
Yes many of us see the problems - I see the only solution being a extremely strong 3rd political party to make sweeping changes in our deteriorating culture.
Our two party system is totally corrupt and full of liars and thieves. All of our jobs are being outsourced while many of the high tech, engineering and professional positions are being filled with foreigners with H1 Visas. Our education system has been dumbed down to the lowest common student. We have stretched every freedom of the constitution out of bounds to the point where we shelter the enemy from within. Many disgraces for this once proud leading nation who has propped up many countries causing our own demise while our leaders line their pockets.

I have to agree with Fousto on some of the points he made here. And Bruce, as well, as he mentioned our fascination with reality TV and celebrities. As many of the other developed countries focus on building up their own societies, the U.S. continues to have a focus on how other nations are doing... at the expense of Americans.

What the politicians tend to come up with are silly, feel-good, unfunded mandates ("No Child Left Behind") to address very serious problems. And without being bigots, I do not think we should have as much of a focus on educating illegal immigrant children AS MUCH as educating the children of legal citizens and visitors. The U.S. is fast learning that there is only so much money that can be spent. You can only borrow so much. You can only tax so much. So whether it's the nation building exercises of the neocons or the expansion of questionable domestic programs by the liberals, at some point we have to get our spending in check... without ruining the nation. As yet, I don't believe anyone near the top has realized that - in either party! From NAFTA killing entire industries, to our reliance on China to fund our deficit, how do we dig ourselves out of the hole we're in??? I don't think anyone is prepared to ask those tough questions and face the tough answers.

Here is one of the saddest things I've recently seen. Kids learn about political correctness, and like Pavlov's dogs, act on what they've been taught. But when you get to the meat of the matter, many of our young people (even those who are in environments where they SHOULD BE more knowledgeable), fail:

Padua Academy, A National School of Excellence :rolleyes:
JUP9Jm9SqvY

And there's no need to try to make this about left wing vs. right wing, liberal vs. conservative. I know kids who have gone to Liberty University, and more than a few of them were some of the most backward people I've ever met. Our new path seems to be one of Universal Ignorance, and no political philosophy has exclusive rights to that path.

[Rollo]

BTW I'm quite handy with a wrench :p

No you're not. As a Scot you'd be handy with a spanner or a socket set :D

I think that part of the dumbing down of America rests at the feet of that scurrilous ne'er-do-well Noah Webster, whom in 1806 published that piece of filthy muck "A Compendious Dictionary of the English Language".
Consequently the entire of the American public has spelt and spoken its own unique tongue which has thrown it out of "the clamour of pedantry" and into the realm of "general ignorance".

[SportscarBruce]

No you're not. As a Scot you'd be handy with a spanner or a socket set :D

I think that part of the dumbing down of America rests at the feet of that scurrilous ne'er-do-well Noah Webster, whom in 1806 published that piece of filthy muck "A Compendious Dictionary of the English Language".
Consequently the entire of the American public has spelt and spoken its own unique tongue which has thrown it out of "the clamour of pedantry" and into the realm of "general ignorance".

Bigotry founded upon the most superficial of differences such as local dialect or skin color speaks more to the ignorance of the accuser than his intended targets of derision.

[F1boat]

Fousto, speaking from personal experience, third party can become awful as well. And quickly.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I've not met enough Americans to know if they are dumbing down. A nation that put men on the moon and...........errrm............ , well a nation that put men on the moon can't be that dumb. America has some of the worlds greatest education establishments.

I think it's just some parts of the American culture look dumb from an outside view. When I think of America I think of McDonalds, Paris Hilton, daft sports in which people wear tight pants and a people without health insurance.

The American accent also sounds dumb to us true Englishmen, and it really winds us up when Americans tell the English how to speak English!

[Rollo]

Bigotry founded upon the most superficial of differences such as local dialect or skin color speaks more to the ignorance of the accuser than his intended targets of derision.

Language itself is something which changes and develops over time. Whilst you may choose to brandish me as being a "bigot" I should point out that a "bigot" is one who stands obstinately with an opinion (what you speak of is discrimination); my opinion is not borne from ignorance, but from a study in the development of the language itself.

Since you yourself have asked the question with regards The Dumbing Down of America and even put forward some possible causes:

There are several influences at work here. Garbage TV, especially news and pop culture.

Then what is more fundamental than an attack on the language in the first place?

Words are the carriers and conveyors of truth, thoughts, ideas and meaning. Webster himself plainly stated in the introduction to his 1806 dictionary:
"We intend to forge on this land, a new language for a new nation and a new people."

Webster himself intended to destroy the nuances of dialect which existed in the United States, and he hoped to standardise both spelling and pronunciation (and even as I type this, my web browser tries to inflict spelling upon me).
http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/DKitchen/new_655/webster_language.htm
an American Court will perpetuate, must gradually destroy the differences of dialect which our ancestors brought from their native countries
- Noah Webster

Whilst his intentions may have been good, the effects are a further step towards giving people less ability to express themselves, much less be understood.

[Tomi]

I've not met enough Americans to know if they are dumbing down. A nation that put men on the moon and...........errrm............ , well a nation that put men on the moon can't be that dumb.

Depends of the reason why put the man on the moon, if dumb or not.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Depends of the reason why put the man on the moon, if dumb or not.


But to be able to develop the technology to do such a thing is pretty intelligent.

[Rudy Tamasz]

But to be able to develop the technology to do such a thing is pretty intelligent.

What if they did it just to make sure the Earth is really flat?

[Jag_Warrior]

While I agree that the dialect or even the base language (British English vs. American English or European Spanish vs. Mexican Spanish) may have some affect on how effectively information can be conveyed, that's not really what I (or most people) think about when they speak of "dumbing down". One dialect vs. another typically makes little difference in whether or not the speaker has sufficient knowledge of the subject matter. Whether one is speaking the Queen's English or Spanglish, if one does not possess basic, fundamental knowledge, it doesn't matter what sort of accent or dialect is being spoken. Ignorance cannot be covered up by using words which are more pleasant to the ear than certain others. That goes to the old saying that if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$#!^.

My feeling is that the American (public) educational system focuses too much attention on social engineering and the psychology of making underperformers feel better about themselves. Kids who don't/won't exercise are no longer "fat". Kids who don't/won't study are no longer "lazy". Kids who fail are no longer "failures". So, we're raising a nation of overweight, lazy failures... who have a sense of entitlement.

Not having knowledge is (IMO) a much worse situation than struggling to convey it. Considering that math is pretty much a universal language, we have FAR too many children in this country who are behind the curve when it comes to mathematics. And on that point, I seriously doubt that a British PhD in math would struggle to understand his American counterpart, while discussing a theorem. It's the kids who don't know what a theorem is that concern me the most. Our kids know and care more about American Idol and Big Brother than about what is really happening in our nation. I doubt the average 18-22 year old American kid even knows who his congressional representative is. That, IMO, is an indication of the dumbing down of this nation.

[SportscarBruce]

nm

But I agree with Jag_Warrior 100%

[Eki]

And on that point, I seriously doubt that a British PhD in math would struggle to understand his American counterpart, while discussing a theorem.
True. When I visited the US I didn't struggle to understand my American peers, who were mostly white, middle-aged male engineers like me, but I sometimes struggled to understand hispanic kids working in fast food restaurants.

[Mark in Oshawa]

While I agree that the dialect or even the base language (British English vs. American English or European Spanish vs. Mexican Spanish) may have some affect on how effectively information can be conveyed, that's not really what I (or most people) think about when they speak of "dumbing down". One dialect vs. another typically makes little difference in whether or not the speaker has sufficient knowledge of the subject matter. Whether one is speaking the Queen's English or Spanglish, if one does not possess basic, fundamental knowledge, it doesn't matter what sort of accent or dialect is being spoken. Ignorance cannot be covered up by using words which are more pleasant to the ear than certain others. That goes to the old saying that if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$#!^.

My feeling is that the American (public) educational system focuses too much attention on social engineering and the psychology of making underperformers feel better about themselves. Kids who don't/won't exercise are no longer "fat". Kids who don't/won't study are no longer "lazy". Kids who fail are no longer "failures". So, we're raising a nation of overweight, lazy failures... who have a sense of entitlement.

Not having knowledge is (IMO) a much worse situation than struggling to convey it. Considering that math is pretty much a universal language, we have FAR too many children in this country who are behind the curve when it comes to mathematics. And on that point, I seriously doubt that a British PhD in math would struggle to understand his American counterpart, while discussing a theorem. It's the kids who don't know what a theorem is that concern me the most. Our kids know and care more about American Idol and Big Brother than about what is really happening in our nation. I doubt the average 18-22 year old American kid even knows who his congressional representative is. That, IMO, is an indication of the dumbing down of this nation.

There is a dumbing down of the masses, but for that, I blame the education system for not really stressing the 3 "R"s ; political correctness infecting the idea that children cannot fail (they can and should when they can't cut it) and other silly notions. Add in parents working their guts out to just make or keep up with the Jone's and pay their taxes, not paying attention to the kids, and a media culture filled with crack cocaine like tv that does nothing to educate people, and you end up in 2 generations with people who are clueless.

Another thing that I stated above is this USA navel gazing that is overwhelming in the US media. Like it or not, there is a great world going on outside the borders of the continent at the media elites of the US who would tell you in a soothing voice how much they are on top of what you need to know are ignorant themselves. They are just too arrogant or naive to admit it. The fact is tho, they don't really understand Europe or Canada or anywhere else on any level but the superficial. When you have a populace that is ignorant of the rest of the world, it isn't a surprise they have no clue. Americans are no more stupid than Brits, Germans, Japanese, Finns or Canadians. What they are is being lied to and fed mush......and the people doing it are the same people who decry people like George W. Bush or Sarah Palin as imbeciles. Lots of stupidity going around down there, regardless of political stripe.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Our kids know and care more about American Idol and Big Brother than about what is really happening in our nation. I doubt the average 18-22 year old American kid even knows who his congressional representative is. That, IMO, is an indication of the dumbing down of this nation.

Don't worry, it's the same over here.

Sounds like it's the 'celebrity culture' that is the root of the problem. People just want to be famous for the sake of being famous. It's sad that youngsters have people such as Paris Hilton and Katie Price (probably means nothing to you) as role models.

I sound really old, don't I? :p

[Mark in Oshawa]

Don't worry, it's the same over here.

Sounds like it's the 'celebrity culture' that is the root of the problem. People just want to be famous for the sake of being famous. It's sad that youngsters have people such as Paris Hilton and Katie Price (probably means nothing to you) as role models.

I sound really old, don't I? :p

You aint old...just smart.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

You aint old...just smart.

Gonna frame that post! :p

I'd like to see an end to so called Reality TV which only add to the dumbing down of viewers (IMO). The TV channels are infested with them.

[Jag_Warrior]

There is a dumbing down of the masses, but for that, I blame the education system for not really stressing the 3 "R"s ; political correctness infecting the idea that children cannot fail (they can and should when they can't cut it) and other silly notions. Add in parents working their guts out to just make or keep up with the Jone's and pay their taxes, not paying attention to the kids, and a media culture filled with crack cocaine like tv that does nothing to educate people, and you end up in 2 generations with people who are clueless.

^^^ This I agree with for the most part.



Another thing that I stated above is this USA navel gazing that is overwhelming in the US media. Like it or not, there is a great world going on outside the borders of the continent at the media elites of the US who would tell you in a soothing voice how much they are on top of what you need to know are ignorant themselves. They are just too arrogant or naive to admit it. The fact is tho, they don't really understand Europe or Canada or anywhere else on any level but the superficial. When you have a populace that is ignorant of the rest of the world, it isn't a surprise they have no clue. Americans are no more stupid than Brits, Germans, Japanese, Finns or Canadians. What they are is being lied to and fed mush......and the people doing it are the same people who decry people like George W. Bush or Sarah Palin as imbeciles. Lots of stupidity going around down there, regardless of political stripe.

This, not so much. We have greater access to information and data now than at any time in our history. With the advent of the internet, newspapers and TV news have become all but obsolete. Newspapers are going out of business faster than buggy whip makers after the first Model T rolled off the assembly line. So this "media elite", that is supposedly telling people what to worry about or not worry about, has less influence now than ever before. If anything, the U.S. pays more attention to the rest of the world now than we ever did before. There was a very good reason for us not entering WWI or WWII until rather late in the game: the American people weren't convinced that what was happening in Europe or Asia was any of our business. Now, anytime some two bit dictator farts, we feel like we need to send in the 101st Airborne. Rather than the interventionist policies of the neoconservatives, it is my belief that we need to focus more inwardly.

People no longer have to make any sort of major effort to access global information. It's as simple as going to this page, or one of the many more similar to it:
Google World News (http://news.google.com/news/section?pz=1&cf=all&topic=w&ict=ln)

As for TV, there's CNBC World, Bloomberg Asia, BBC America, Current, Link, GALA, Univision and who knows what else... and that's just what is on my TV service. If I wanted more, I could subscribe to an international package.

But if people would rather surf for porn and video game cheats, instead of reading about global affairs... you can only lead a mule to water, you can't make a mule think about what H2O is.

As for Palin and Bush, while discussing the dumbing down of America, why would you even mention two people whose knowledge of global affairs (prior to running for national office) wouldn't match that of a well versed high school senior? A man who couldn't pronounce the names of a good many countries? A man who created words, rather than speaking standard English? A woman who could not name a single book that she had read? A woman who didn't know the duties of the office for which she was running??? If anything, those two are the poster children for the dumbing down of America.

It's not about politics, Mark. Being ignorant is not a sin. But being willfully ignorant is; that's stupidity. You can fix the former. You cannot fix the latter.

[Mark in Oshawa]

^^^ This I agree with for the most part.




This, not so much. We have greater access to information and data now than at any time in our history. With the advent of the internet, newspapers and TV news have become all but obsolete. Newspapers are going out of business faster than buggy whip makers after the first Model T rolled off the assembly line. So this "media elite", that is supposedly telling people what to worry about or not worry about, has less influence now than ever before. If anything, the U.S. pays more attention to the rest of the world now than we ever did before. There was a very good reason for us not entering WWI or WWII until rather late in the game: the American people weren't convinced that what was happening in Europe or Asia was any of our business. Now, anytime some two bit dictator farts, we feel like we need to send in the 101st Airborne. Rather than the interventionist policies of the neoconservatives, it is my belief that we need to focus more inwardly.

People no longer have to make any sort of major effort to access global information. It's as simple as going to this page, or one of the many more similar to it:
Google World News (http://news.google.com/news/section?pz=1&cf=all&topic=w&ict=ln)

As for TV, there's CNBC World, Bloomberg Asia, BBC America, Current, Link, GALA, Univision and who knows what else... and that's just what is on my TV service. If I wanted more, I could subscribe to an international package.

But if people would rather surf for porn and video game cheats, instead of reading about global affairs... you can only lead a mule to water, you can't make a mule think about what H2O is.

As for Palin and Bush, while discussing the dumbing down of America, why would you even mention two people whose knowledge of global affairs (prior to running for national office) wouldn't match that of a well versed high school senior? A man who couldn't pronounce the names of a good many countries? A man who created words, rather than speaking standard English? A woman who could not name a single book that she had read? A woman who didn't know the duties of the office for which she was running??? If anything, those two are the poster children for the dumbing down of America.

It's not about politics, Mark. Being ignorant is not a sin. But being willfully ignorant is; that's stupidity. You can fix the former. You cannot fix the latter.

Here you and I are going to disagree. The Right of the political spectrum is ignorant of some things, but you are taking great glee in making this just people like Bush and Palin. I would suggest that politicians of all political stripes make assumptions and are ignorant of various details in the world.

Furthermore, we are talking about the average joe on the street. I have never BEEN to Europe, but I can tell you after all the time I have spent in America, many Yanks of both sides of the political stripe are not in tune with what is going on overseas. I am saying in tune, not necessairly agreeing with.

You are taking this as if the Neocons and people you politically dislike are the only ones out to lunch and THAT weakens your argument. You are a smarter guy than that surely. Believe me, I have no more faith in Harry Reid and Pelosi understanding the dynamics of what makes Canada tick or the UK than Sarah Palin. In fact, Palin was on the talk show "The Hour" on CBC and the host is a NOT a right wing sympathetic interviewer but he couldn't trip her up. She was far more in touch with how Canada interacts with the US than most American politicians. I am not a big Palin fan, but I refuse to just paint her as stupid. Ignorant of some things yes, but not stupid.

As for having access to the world with the net and the 500 channel universe, that makes it more shameful....

[Rollo]

What they are is being lied to and fed mush...

Amen to that.

And who are the people generating the mush? In the biggest nations in the Anglosphere, the same people generate mush. News Corporation which owns the Fox News empire, The Wall St Journal, the New York Post, Dow Jones & Company, BSkyB, The Times, The Sun, half of Foxtel, The Daily Telegraph etc etc etc
... a great deal of blame at the dumbing down of society has to fall at the feet of the people who generate the media that is consumed; to be perfectly fair Rupert himself is certainly guilty of creating mush.

Whoever controls the media controls the ideas that people are exposed to. The scary thing is that George Orwell described rubbishy entertainment and spurious news which "the Party" handed out to the masses as "prolefeed" all the way back in 1949. We now have a situation where people voluntarily but and believe it.


Now, anytime some two bit dictator farts, we feel like we need to send in the 101st Airborne.

Who makes you feel like that? Is it Fox? Not that they care much, because if it sells media content, then why should they?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Amen to that.

And who are the people generating the mush? In the biggest nations in the Anglosphere, the same people generate mush. News Corporation which owns the Fox News empire, The Wall St Journal, the New York Post, Dow Jones & Company, BSkyB, The Times, The Sun, half of Foxtel, The Daily Telegraph etc etc etc
... a great deal of blame at the dumbing down of society has to fall at the feet of the people who generate the media that is consumed; to be perfectly fair Rupert himself is certainly guilty of creating mush.

Whoever controls the media controls the ideas that people are exposed to. The scary thing is that George Orwell described rubbishy entertainment and spurious news which "the Party" handed out to the masses as "prolefeed" all the way back in 1949. We now have a situation where people voluntarily but and believe it.



Who makes you feel like that? Is it Fox? Not that they care much, because if it sells media content, then why should they?

Rollo...it is very convenient to accuse just Murdoch's empire of this, but one only has to watch NBC, MSNBC, ABC, CBS plus local tv in the US to realize it is all the media. Most Ameircan towns have awful newspapers too....and no choice in them. One paper for one city. Here in theToronto area we have 4, with different slants and op-eds....

[Hondo]

The good news is, that with the election of Obama, we've proven we can't get much dumber so we must be near the bottom.

[SportscarBruce]

The good news is, that with the election of Obama, we've proven we can't get much dumber so we must be near the bottom.

The Dumbing Down of Conservatism really demands a thread of it's own.

[Jag_Warrior]

Here you and I are going to disagree. The Right of the political spectrum is ignorant of some things, but you are taking great glee in making this just people like Bush and Palin. I would suggest that politicians of all political stripes make assumptions and are ignorant of various details in the world.

No, Mark... actually you're the one who introduced Palin and Bush into this. Go back and read my previous post. Any mention of Palin or Bush??? Nope. My subsequent post just addressed the two people who YOU brought up.

This is how I ended the post that you replied to on the previous page:

Our new path seems to be one of Universal Ignorance, and no political philosophy has exclusive rights to that path.
I really don't think I could have been any clearer.



Furthermore, we are talking about the average joe on the street. I have never BEEN to Europe, but I can tell you after all the time I have spent in America, many Yanks of both sides of the political stripe are not in tune with what is going on overseas. I am saying in tune, not necessairly agreeing with.

OK.





You are taking this as if the Neocons and people you politically dislike are the only ones out to lunch and THAT weakens your argument. You are a smarter guy than that surely. Believe me, I have no more faith in Harry Reid and Pelosi understanding the dynamics of what makes Canada tick or the UK than Sarah Palin. In fact, Palin was on the talk show "The Hour" on CBC and the host is a NOT a right wing sympathetic interviewer but he couldn't trip her up. She was far more in touch with how Canada interacts with the US than most American politicians. I am not a big Palin fan, but I refuse to just paint her as stupid. Ignorant of some things yes, but not stupid.

Mark, you brought up Palin and Bush (not me), as if they're intellectual martyrs. Yes, they do get picked on. And I wonder why? Is the scrutiny over the top at times? Yep. And this would be different from how Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and talk radio approach those on the left? You could have included someone from the left (Al Gore, Jesse Jackson, Babs Boxer... anybody) - but you chose not to. So again, you're the one who brought them up, and it is my opinion that those two people most certainly represent the dumbing down of America. I feel the same about Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and a number of other people.



As for having access to the world with the net and the 500 channel universe, that makes it more shameful....

Yes, it does.

[Jag_Warrior]

The good news is, that with the election of Obama, we've proven we can't get much dumber so we must be near the bottom.

"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."
-- H.L. Mencken (supposedly)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Jag, I will buy your assessment of Jesse Jackson being attacked by the right maybe unfairly. of course...there was the children out of wedlock, then there was that time he was on camera thinking he wasn't and saying what he would like to do to Obama. Then there is the shakedowns he does with Sharpton with Fortune 500 companies. Ya...all of that...and Rush has to make something up? No...he doesn't....

Palin sounds dopey, and is taking a beating from the press, but that makes her just more legit with those who support her. IF someone from the left actually had an intelligent debate with her, we would find out once and for all if she was dopey or actually clever.

As for Bush....well the media betrayed the man as a buffoon for 7 years. The Buffoon held his own in two debates with two "Great" debaters and supposed smart guys in Kerry and Gore. Guess he aint as dumb as his enemies wished either.

The reason I put out the right wing people I did is because it is the right in America who are constantly being pointed out as being stupid and wrong. In short, the dumbing down of America in the eyes of many only is those who vote one way. I would buy that many dopes out there may or may not vote for the Republicans, but I can tell you there are a ton of NY Libreals and Hollywood types who are clueless too.....

[Jag_Warrior]

Our new path seems to be one of Universal Ignorance, and no political philosophy has exclusive rights to that path.

Mark, for whatever reason, you continue to want to make this about the victimization of one particular political philosophy. A drug addict from the right taking swipes at a philanderer from the left doesn't represent the dumbing down of America, in my opinion. When either or both make up factoids (which both have), and use those as a basis for their arguments, that just represents an intellectually disingenuous nature on their part.

Since you still want to talk about Palin, no one is stopping Sarah from appearing on Face the Nation, Meet the Press or BBC America, are they??? Mitt Romney is on Meet the Press today, sharing his thoughts on fiscal policy and the future, as he sees it. If she wants to demonstrate that she actually has the knowledge and skills to be a leader at the national level, then she is the one who needs to demonstrate that. If she'd feel safer there (and I'm sure she would), she could give a rundown of her "economic theories" on Fox. I would watch. Perhaps I'd be pleasantly surprised, though I doubt it.

Your main concern seems to be about how the media treats Republicans and/or conservatives. I could not care less about that, with regard to the topic of this thread. I'm concerned that we have a generation of children and young people who are growing up without the fundamental knowledge and basic skills necessary to keep our nation moving forward. Relative to other developed nations, I am concerned that our kids are falling behind in the areas of math and science. Our dropout rate remains very high, especially in inner city areas. And it makes me feel rather ashamed that someone recently off the boat knows more about our Constitution and the Declaration of Independence than someone who was born here and educated here.

IMO, this dumbing down of America will continue as long as kids continue to believe that the reason for getting an education is (solely) to make more money. It will continue as long as money and income mean more than having knowledge and being able to process data and facts. It will continue as long as we value celebrity and fame over the quiet, steady work ethic.


This song, from a British pop singer of all people, has fascinated me since the first time I heard it. I think she has hit the bullseye and perfectly sums up my feelings about American, if not Western culture.
qn7ziS43YHs

[Mark in Oshawa]

Our new path seems to be one of Universal Ignorance, and no political philosophy has exclusive rights to that path.

Mark, for whatever reason, you continue to want to make this about the victimization of one particular political philosophy. A drug addict from the right taking swipes at a philanderer from the left doesn't represent the dumbing down of America, in my opinion. When either or both make up factoids (which both have), and use those as a basis for their arguments, that just represents an intellectually disingenuous nature on their part.

Since you still want to talk about Palin, no one is stopping Sarah from appearing on Face the Nation, Meet the Press or BBC America, are they??? Mitt Romney is on Meet the Press today, sharing his thoughts on fiscal policy and the future, as he sees it. If she wants to demonstrate that she actually has the knowledge and skills to be a leader at the national level, then she is the one who needs to demonstrate that. If she'd feel safer there (and I'm sure she would), she could give a rundown of her "economic theories" on Fox. I would watch. Perhaps I'd be pleasantly surprised, though I doubt it.

Your main concern seems to be about how the media treats Republicans and/or conservatives. I could not care less about that, with regard to the topic of this thread. I'm concerned that we have a generation of children and young people who are growing up without the fundamental knowledge and basic skills necessary to keep our nation moving forward. Relative to other developed nations, I am concerned that our kids are falling behind in the areas of math and science. Our dropout rate remains very high, especially in inner city areas. And it makes me feel rather ashamed that someone recently off the boat knows more about our Constitution and the Declaration of Independence than someone who was born here and educated here.

IMO, this dumbing down of America will continue as long as kids continue to believe that the reason for getting an education is (solely) to make more money. It will continue as long as money and income mean more than having knowledge and being able to process data and facts. It will continue as long as we value celebrity and fame over the quiet, steady work ethic.


This song, from a British pop singer of all people, has fascinated me since the first time I heard it. I think she has hit the bullseye and perfectly sums up my feelings about American, if not Western culture.
qn7ziS43YHs

You are not wrong. My point on Palin is tho if she went on Meet the Press and did well, the attacks wouldn't stop. She was in the bullseye the minute she accepted the VP nomination for reasons that are irrational. When the New York Times and the like floods Alaska with reporters digging up dirt on someone nominated before the convention in less than a week, it may be newsworthy, but they ignored the Edwards love child story, and THAT one was floating around in the ether for a while until it finally blew up. There is a double standard, although not in the same manner that some Foxheads or Rush would advocate.

You are 100% correct tho on the dumbing down of the masses with media. It is a perplexing issue when you realize more people voted for the winner of American Idol than voted in the last election. Canada seems to have a similar slide into the cesspool and I am sure it is equally evident in today's UK judging by some of what the UK poster have said.

I am just pointing out that there is a media blind spot on political philosophy and how stories are framed, and I saw that long before FOX came along and made an issue out of it. Living in Canada, watching the CBC cover news and CTV cover news (the CTV is a private for profit broadcaster) I saw the difference on how they saw stories, and how the American media see's stories.

I also think that the modern media has dumbed down the news and THAT is contributing to this dumbing down of America. Excellent shows like 60 Minutes still exist,but watching the nightly news is often just a waste of time, no matter what network you watch. The decline of newspapers is NOT helping, nor are the numerous blogs. Some are excellent, but most of them are often too quick to be ahead of the story, and are short on content and context. IN short, there is a lot of factors in dumbing down the Western world, but media I think is a HUGE factor.....

[Jag_Warrior]

If she was unique, that would be one thing. But she's not. There are many like her... some even worse.
WALIARHHLII&NR

[Mark in Oshawa]

Jag....if this isn't a damning condemnation of the public education system in the US, you only have to watch Kellie Pickler on "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" to confirm it. I like Kellie, but you cant fake this kind of dumb....

[Daniel]

This song, from a British pop singer of all people, has fascinated me since the first time I heard it. I think she has hit the bullseye and perfectly sums up my feelings about American, if not Western culture.
qn7ziS43YHs

JW you've been sucked in bigtime, Lily Allen is a mediawhore and the exact person she seems to be criticising in that song. The lyrics in that song are fantastic but she's a hypocrite for singing it.

Think of it like Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Saddam Hussein & co getting together and having a concert for victims of brutal regimes or Paris Hilton doing a show about how great it is to be celibate until your wedding night. Sure they can spout as much truth as they want to but it's BS because of where it's coming from.

Lily comes out and criticises other talentless celebs like Victoria Beckham when she is hereself rather talentless. She's the son of Keith Allen so she's not just some person who's come from nothing, she's had money behind her and as with all pop music these days if you've got money behind you then you can do anything.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Lily Allen is sh!t but good at the same time :p

[Daniel]

I also think that the modern media has dumbed down the news and THAT is contributing to this dumbing down of America. Excellent shows like 60 Minutes still exist,but watching the nightly news is often just a waste of time, no matter what network you watch. The decline of newspapers is NOT helping, nor are the numerous blogs. Some are excellent, but most of them are often too quick to be ahead of the story, and are short on content and context. IN short, there is a lot of factors in dumbing down the Western world, but media I think is a HUGE factor.....

Couldn't agree more. Whenever I watch a news station whether it be something that people would consider leftist or something that people consider right it's all BS.

I know I'm going to get slagged off for this but have any of you ever watched Al Jazeera? Whenever I seem to watch it I'm always quite surprised at how balanced it seems to be and how they seem to deal with things which are actually major issues and stories rather than making a story out of something minor by covering it 10 times an hour and getting "experts" in and getting involved in mindless speculation......

[Rollo]

JW you've been sucked in bigtime, Lily Allen is a mediawhore and the exact person she seems to be criticising in that song. The lyrics in that song are fantastic but she's a hypocrite for singing it.
... all pop music these days if you've got money behind you then you can do anything.

There was a whole chain of separate departments dealing with proletarian literature, music, drama, and entertainment generally. Here were produced rubbishy newspapers containing almost nothing except sport, crime and astrology, sensational five-cent novelettes, films oozing with sex, and sentimental songs which were composed entirely by mechanical means on a special kind of kaleidoscope known as a versificator.
- 1984 - George Orwell... written in 1949 :eek:

[Daniel]

JW you've been sucked in bigtime, Lily Allen is a mediawhore and the exact person she seems to be criticising in that song. The lyrics in that song are fantastic but she's a hypocrite for singing it.

Think of it like Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Saddam Hussein & co getting together and having a concert for victims of brutal regimes or Paris Hilton doing a show about how great it is to be celibate until your wedding night. Sure they can spout as much truth as they want to but it's BS because of where it's coming from.

Lily comes out and criticises other talentless celebs like Victoria Beckham when she is hereself rather talentless. She's the son of Keith Allen so she's not just some person who's come from nothing, she's had money behind her and as with all pop music these days if you've got money behind you then you can do anything.
Before I go to bed a couple of things about Lily


Life's about film stars and less about mothers
It's all about fast cars and cussing each other
But it doesn't matter 'cause I'm packing plastic
And that's what makes my life so ing fantastic
And I am a weapon of massive consumption
And it's not my fault, it's how I'm programmed to function
I'll look at the sun and I'll look in the mirror
I'm on the right track, yeah we're on to a winner


That's why Lily goes on spending sprees?
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=lily+allen+spending+spree&meta=&aq=f&oq=

That's why she's quit her talking in a mockney voice career to become an actor?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1215725/Lily-Allen-declares-quitting-music-career-acting.html

I could go on pointing out how hypocritical she is with that song but I think those two points are a good start.

[Daniel]

There was a whole chain of separate departments dealing with proletarian literature, music, drama, and entertainment generally. Here were produced rubbishy newspapers containing almost nothing except sport, crime and astrology, sensational five-cent novelettes, films oozing with sex, and sentimental songs which were composed entirely by mechanical means on a special kind of kaleidoscope known as a versificator.
- 1984 - George Orwell... written in 1949 :eek:
:rotflmao: So true.

Oh and another note. She talks about people taking their clothes off and if you were to type some appropriate words into googles image search and turn the safesearch off I wonder what you'd find. Lily Allen with no clothes on?!?!?!! Never!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

:rotflmao: So true.

Oh and another note. She talks about people taking their clothes off and if you were to type some appropriate words into googles image search and turn the safesearch off I wonder what you'd find. Lily Allen with no clothes on?!?!?!! Never!

Where!?!?!?!?!?! :eek:

[Jag_Warrior]

JW you've been sucked in bigtime, Lily Allen is a mediawhore and the exact person she seems to be criticising in that song. The lyrics in that song are fantastic but she's a hypocrite for singing it.

Think of it like Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Saddam Hussein & co getting together and having a concert for victims of brutal regimes or Paris Hilton doing a show about how great it is to be celibate until your wedding night. Sure they can spout as much truth as they want to but it's BS because of where it's coming from.

Lily comes out and criticises other talentless celebs like Victoria Beckham when she is hereself rather talentless. She's the son of Keith Allen so she's not just some person who's come from nothing, she's had money behind her and as with all pop music these days if you've got money behind you then you can do anything.

It's the song that I like. I wouldn't know Lily Allen if I tripped over her on the sidewalk. As far as I know, she may not have even written the song. Donald Duck could sing it... I would still find it appropriate for the times.

[ShiftingGears]

JW you've been sucked in bigtime, Lily Allen is a mediawhore and the exact person she seems to be criticising in that song. The lyrics in that song are fantastic but she's a hypocrite for singing it.

Think of it like Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Saddam Hussein & co getting together and having a concert for victims of brutal regimes or Paris Hilton doing a show about how great it is to be celibate until your wedding night. Sure they can spout as much truth as they want to but it's BS because of where it's coming from.

Lily comes out and criticises other talentless celebs like Victoria Beckham when she is hereself rather talentless. She's the son of Keith Allen so she's not just some person who's come from nothing, she's had money behind her and as with all pop music these days if you've got money behind you then you can do anything.

The Great Gatsby is one of the greatest pieces of literature, however F Scott Fitzgerald lives the life that he critisises in that novel. Doesn't make the contextual commentary any less potent.

[Daniel]

The Great Gatsby is one of the greatest pieces of literature, however F Scott Fitzgerald lives the life that he critisises in that novel. Doesn't make the contextual commentary any less potent.
Perhaps so but the stuff Lily "co-writes" is hardly up there with the greatest pieces of literature.....

[BeansBeansBeans]

I think you've missed Lily Allen's point. It is commentary on contemporary culture in which she acknowledges that she is in-part as shallow as everyone else. It's not "look what you've become" but rather "look what we've become".

[Daniel]

I think you've missed Lily Allen's point. It is commentary on contemporary culture in which she acknowledges that she is in-part as shallow as everyone else. It's not "look what you've become" but rather "look what we've become".
Oh come on that's a load of BS and you know it. It's thought like that which means that any old tosh can be considered art or music. See shark in a jar as a classic example.

As Dr Phil once said in a Simpsons Halloween Episode, "Don't sell me an outhouse and tell me it's the Taj Mahal"

[BeansBeansBeans]

Oh come on that's a load of BS and you know it. It's thought like that which means that any old tosh can be considered art or music. See shark in a jar as a classic example.

I'm not with you. Or you're not with me. I was merely challenging your suggestion that Lily Allen was a hypocrite.

[Lousada]

I think you've missed Lily Allen's point. It is commentary on contemporary culture in which she acknowledges that she is in-part as shallow as everyone else. It's not "look what you've become" but rather "look what we've become".

I thought it was satirical, that she was mocking herself :s
Anyway, I like Lily Allen and her songs. So does that make me dumb? :s

[Lousada]

There was a whole chain of separate departments dealing with proletarian literature, music, drama, and entertainment generally. Here were produced rubbishy newspapers containing almost nothing except sport, crime and astrology, sensational five-cent novelettes, films oozing with sex, and sentimental songs which were composed entirely by mechanical means on a special kind of kaleidoscope known as a versificator.
- 1984 - George Orwell... written in 1949 :eek:

The funny thing is that most of the things Orwell writes about in that novel had already happened in 1949. I wonder how much of the "dumbing down" is because people are actually getting dumber? Or de we look dumber because every idiot can now display their ignorance for a nationwide audience on tv or the internet?

What is a fact though, is that the US is getting relatively dumber. They are sliding in the global education statistics.

[harvick#1]

well the TV media makes every dumber.

especially when celebs die, much like Chad Henry, the media makes him a saint but in reality, he was a very bad person, now you never wish death on anyone and no way shape do I think that its just that he past. but hes been a criminal for so many years and the media thinks he was he was a good man and making amends, maybe he was or not, I dunno.

another is the price of higher education, The american youth can't afford for college anymore because the cost of a degree is just staggering high, thats why we see more and more kids going to CC's instead of Public Universities.

Everyone is to blame though for dumbing down American, and I mean EVERYONE!!!!! hell you sometimes can't even carry out a conversation without the possibility of insulting someone for their beliefs and then you get prosecuted for it