BMWs faster than McLaren and Ferrari

[RaikkonenRules]

In tseting last week, according to Autosport the BMWs were on average the fastest team. :eek: Mclaren and Ferrari were next with Renault only 4th.

[ioan]

BMW are in a pretty good shape, if they can develop consistently during the season than they will be a big surprise.
For sure they have the knowhow to make fast and reliable machineries.
Well, I hope they will be 2nd behind Ferrari at the end! ;)

[raphael123]

I think Ferrari will be the team to beat. They ended the year with by far the best car. I was quite surprised they failed to win either title to be honest.

It'll definately be interesting to see McLaren Vs Ferrari again. Is anyone thinking BMW may be like Honda last year? Honda were the team to beat during the winter testing, but come the season opener, they were good, but nowhere near winning pace. Anyhow, I think Ferrari will be the team to beat, they got two solid drivers, in particularly the constructors. Drivers title Alonso may be in for a shout, depending on the car.

[Narr]

It could be most front running teams haven't put all of their aero parts on yet in a bid to fool the opposition and avoid them being copied.

BMW on the other hand may not be keeping their cards so close hence why they are so fast. It doesn't matter so much about the car when they have Nick driving for them though, he'll slow things down ;)

[futuretiger9]

The big question would be, how close to their limit have been BMW been during the recent tests, and how much have the other top teams been holding back? One would expect McLaren and Ferrari in particular to have some new bits on their cars by the first race.

[Hawkmoon]

Even if BMW do have the fastest car they still have a big problem, namely their drivers.

Heidfeld is decent but hardly great and Kubica is still very green. So even if the car is the quickest I think all Ferrari and McLaren have to do is produce a car that is almost as quick and let Raikkonen and Alonso do their thing. Over the course of a full season I can't see Heidfeld or Kubica beating Raikkonen or Alonso consistently enough to win the title.

The BMW is going to have to be the reincarnation of the F2004 for that to happen.

[Tazio]

Towards the end of last season BMW was fast in almost every practice, but only translated it to being really fast with race fuel at Monza. I think BMW power is a force to be reckoned with. The questions still remain about their aero package, as it will have to be much more versatile than last year.

[Roamy]

Even if BMW do have the fastest car they still have a big problem, namely their drivers.

Heidfeld is decent but hardly great and Kubica is still very green. So even if the car is the quickest I think all Ferrari and McLaren have to do is produce a car that is almost as quick and let Raikkonen and Alonso do their thing. Over the course of a full season I can't see Heidfeld or Kubica beating Raikkonen or Alonso consistently enough to win the title.

The BMW is going to have to be the reincarnation of the F2004 for that to happen.

fly with the hawks or scratch like the chickens !!!!

[Ranger]

Possibly the only team I dislike more than Toyota. We'll see if they can turn last year's fast practise times into relevant data come race day in 2007.

[DimitraF1]

no way...ferrari have a huge advantage from bridgestone this year and the next years also...

[F1boat]

BMW might beat Renault, but not Macca or Ferrari.

[jens]

Unlike Hawkmoon I don't doubt in BMW drivers.

But think logically - a team that scores 7th and 8th positions at best in one season, won't become the team to beat next year?! It's very unlikely to make such a jump in one season. Especially as they are such a young team and still need some time to get the whole structure working entirely.

[tinchote]

It will be a huge surprise if BMW is really fast. But they can be: we are having rule changes (almost every year, now :mark: ) and sometimes a team gets it better than the rest, like McLaren in 98.

[jens]

Well, McLaren was already in 1997 fighting for race wins and with better reliability could have finished 3rd in the WCC. In 1997 it was clear that McLaren was rising as a strong competitor and next year might already fight for the title if they only found the reliability (and they did).

Nothing like that has been seen with BMW, except one spark at Monza.

[VresiBerba]

Nothing like that has been seen with BMW, except one spark at Monza.

And of course Hungary. Actually, the last part of the 2006 season, BMW looked really good, and I would not dismiss them so quickly this year. Remember that Sauber collected a lot of data when they were running Bridgestone, which they did not that loong ago.

[RaikkonenRules]

Unlike Hawkmoon I don't doubt in BMW drivers.

But think logically - a team that scores 7th and 8th positions at best in one season, won't become the team to beat next year?! It's very unlikely to make such a jump in one season. Especially as they are such a young team and still need some time to get the whole structure working entirely.

BMW were 5th actually.

[jens]

BMW were 5th actually.

I'm talking about race positions. :)

Anyway, can you possibly remember one example, when a team that a year before had never even a chance to score a race win, suddenly wins the World Title?

It's easier to fall (like Ferrari in 2005) than to rise. In car developments there is some logic. It's not like Super Aguri gets a budget like 400 million $, the top engineers and drivers and they will win the title with immediate effect. If a team is about to become a title challenger, they have had to build up a basement, where to start attacking the title. In BMW's case it's still in process. It means they must have shown title potential already before. Yes, BAR rose significantly in 2004, but largely thanks to the total failures of Williams and McLaren. And in fact, Ferrari, who got it right, was still clearly ahead. In 2007 so far maybe Renault has been slightly in trouble, but McLaren and Ferrari seem far from "getting it awfully wrong".

[SGWilko]

I dunno you know. BMW Sauber have a rather good windtunnel, and in BMW they now have the readies to run it 24/7, 365. They also have a naff off beefy supercomputer that helps with fluid dynamics modelling, which, from what I understand is the way things are going.

The point though, is have they laid their cards on the deck too soon?

It just stuns me that the BMW electronics division were so useless in the Williams, and now they are rather good, same with the engine, funny that.......

[F1boat]

I'm talking about race positions. :)



They had a podium in Monza.

[Ranger]

They had a podium in Monza.

But what positions were they fighting for most of the year? I think thats his point.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I expect them to be fighting for podiums all season and maybe a win if luck goes their way.

Heidfeld has never had a good car but when has he been significantly outperformed by his team mate? I think he is capable of winning a race.

Kubica could be a star of the future.

[ioan]

Heidfeld has never had a good car but when has he been significantly outperformed by his team mate? I think he is capable of winning a race.


More so than Button.

[SGWilko]

More so than Button.

Button has won a race Ioan, you do know that, don't you?

[RaikkonenRules]

I think he means that Heidfeld has more of the talent required to win races. :)

[Narr]

But what positions were they fighting for most of the year? I think thats his point.

I think 16 or so of their points came from 7th and 8th positions.


With regard to Heidfeld, fighting for 7th and 8th positions is really where his natural talent lies, I wonder if BMW regret the 3 year deal when they are looking at other talent for testing?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

With regard to Heidfeld, fighting for 7th and 8th positions is really where his natural talent lies, I wonder if BMW regret the 3 year deal when they are looking at other talent for testing?

Maybe because his cars have only ever been good enough for 7th and 8th.

He is very underated IMO

He outperformed Kimi at Sauber matched Webber at Williams, with his experience I think he is an ideal driver for a team like BMW.

[ioan]

I think he means that Heidfeld has more of the talent required to win races. :)

Touche!

[ioan]

Maybe because his cars have only ever been good enough for 7th and 8th.

He is very underated IMO

He outperformed Kimi at Sauber matched Webber at Williams, with his experience I think he is an ideal driver for a team like BMW.

He didn't match Webber he outperformed him!

[Roamy]

Webber is not a stat that one needs to be a success. This is Nick's year to shine or he will get the boot.

[Bezza]

I'm talking about race positions. :)

Anyway, can you possibly remember one example, when a team that a year before had never even a chance to score a race win, suddenly wins the World Title?



Williams in 1979. One podium in 1978, then 5 wins (4 for Jones) in 1979. With better reliability and a better start to that season, it wouldn't have been the title. They came from nowhere, so why can't BMW in 2007?

I do agree though with the general concensus. Heidfeld is a good driver but not WDC material, well at least he's not shown it YET. Kubica is an unknown, he looks quick but is he WDC material?

[jso1985]

But the point is that Nick has already shown he's talented, this year he doesn't need to show that, he needs to show he can be a team leader and a winning driver

[Bezza]

Actually, going back to Alan Jones in the Williams in 1979, I would be surprised thought he was WDC material! OK, so he'd won one race beforehand and Heidfeld hasn't won one, but otherwise there are clear parallels.

Maybe its time for Quick Nick....who knows?

[RaikkonenRules]

If the car is good enougth I see no reason why Heidfeld could win at least one race with his experience. Kubica on the other hand while quick he is still slightly erratic and it will be a while before we see him winning.

[futuretiger9]

It would be great to see BMW win a race. I don't think that Heidfeld would be frightened of winning, should an opportunity arise.

[jens]

I don't like the phrase "WDC material". What do you mean with the phrase - "not WDC material - impossible to win the title"? I believe that in right situation with certain amount of luck and in suitable conditions most of the drivers can put in a realistic title challenge and history has given us plenty of examples.

I like the Irvine 1999 example - who thinks he was among the most talented drivers? He even didn't have the fastest car (recall Ferrari's struggle of uncompetitiveness during Michael's injury), but he had luck, but "luck" is something that every person can use it by himself. And Eddie managed to use the unluck of rivals in his own profit, managing to score consistent point finishes.

Even that very underrated R. Schumacher managed to stay in the WDC title chase for about 2/3 of the 2003 season in spite of Williams's bad start into the season (car started to have race winning potential as late as since Austria). So what must prevent Heidi or even Fisi in that case?

What concerns Heidfeld, then I think there is not enough evidence yet to call him weaker than the absolute top stars (FA, KR). And what concerns Kubica, then he seemed to be able to match Heidfeld even better than Räikkönen managed on his debut season, although 2007 might be a bit early for Robert for "big things". First he must find consistency to get rid of all those driver errors.

[raikk]

BMW will be the most improved car of 2007 BUT I don't think they will win the WCC or WDC.. They may challenge but thats it.. They will probally end up 3rd or 4th with 2 or 3 race wins..

[Roamy]

screw BMW they are low class and hopefully they will finish in 8th position and that Prix Mario will be axed

[ioan]

What concerns Heidfeld, then I think there is not enough evidence yet to call him weaker than the absolute top stars (FA, KR). And what concerns Kubica, then he seemed to be able to match Heidfeld even better than Räikkönen managed on his debut season, although 2007 might be a bit early for Robert for "big things". First he must find consistency to get rid of all those driver errors.

What I find astonishing that people (some of them only) think that MW is WDC material but NH isn't!



screw BMW they are low class and hopefully they will finish in 8th position and that Prix Mario will be axed

Sour grapes fousto?! :D

Well I say they are a great team, the ones that finally saved us from seeing Jacques "the poison dwarf" Villeneuve. :p :

[SGWilko]

Sour grapes fousto?! :D


Not necessarily. Many people feel Mario screwed FW and his team over a barrell in their final 2 seasons together. And thats just not cricket!!

[ioan]

Not necessarily. Many people feel Mario screwed FW and his team over a barrell in their final 2 seasons together. And thats just not cricket!!

I that because BMW didn't want to continue to play FW's little game?
They were right to do so, and those last seasons prove that BMW cn do better without Williams.

[jens]

Not necessarily. Many people feel Mario screwed FW and his team over a barrell in their final 2 seasons together. And thats just not cricket!!

Interesting, but I feel the opposite. BMW built decent engines every year, but Williams just wasn't able to build chassis at the same level. And Frank refused to give more participatory in the team to BMW and the problems deepened. With such attitude I would have started supporting another team as well that has more potential and would have given more chance to participatory in team's leadership, because in Williams's case in the last seasons it seemed quite obvious that with conservative methods they won't get far.

[Roamy]

What I find astonishing that people (some of them only) think that MW is WDC material but NH isn't!

See ioan: here you are smart and very correct.

Sour grapes fousto?! :D

Well I say they are a great team, the ones that finally saved us from seeing Jacques "the poison dwarf" Villeneuve. :p :

See here all of a sudden out of nowhere you have completely lost your mind.

I don't like smug assholes who break contracts - plus I think mario is a POS.
I will feel the same way if the puke cuts Nick early.

Anyway expect Ferrari as on the highway too will piss all over BMW as usual.

[ratonmacias]

See here all of a sudden out of nowhere you have completely lost your mind.

I don't like smug assholes who break contracts - plus I think mario is a POS.
I will feel the same way if the puke cuts Nick early.

Anyway expect Ferrari as on the highway too will piss all over BMW as usual.


the first proof was yesterday at bahrain. one thing is to be fast with your rookies (bmw) who cant setup a car in the timeframe of an expirienced driver on tracks you test a billion miles a week and another is to get there and setup a car in a flash (massa, button, raikkonen).

how many tracks where winter testing takes place are raced on the calendar?

barcelona and bahrain right?

[SGWilko]

I that because BMW didn't want to continue to play FW's little game?
They were right to do so, and those last seasons prove that BMW cn do better without Williams.

What game was Frank playing, pray tell?

[ratonmacias]

I that because BMW didn't want to continue to play FW's little game?
They were right to do so, and those last seasons prove that BMW cn do better without Williams.


lets see

bmw-williams

2000 3 podiums 3rd wcc
2001 4 wins 3rd wcc
2002 1 win 2nd wcc
2003 4 wins 2nd wcc
2004 1 win 6 podiums 4th wcc
2005 4 podiums 5th wcc 66 points

bmw-sauber
2006 2 podiums 5th wcc 36 points

how has bmw improved since they left williams?

[ArrowsFA1]

I that because BMW didn't want to continue to play FW's little game?
BMW signed an engine supply deal with Williams then decided they wanted to run the team. FW wasn't playing a "game". He was running his team.

Time will tell if BMW can be as successful as Williams.

[Bezza]

Interesting, but I feel the opposite. BMW built decent engines every year, but Williams just wasn't able to build chassis at the same level. And Frank refused to give more participatory in the team to BMW and the problems deepened. With such attitude I would have started supporting another team as well that has more potential and would have given more chance to participatory in team's leadership, because in Williams's case in the last seasons it seemed quite obvious that with conservative methods they won't get far.

Yeah...Williams struggled when they were partnered with Honda and Renault too didn't they... :dozey:

[ratonmacias]

Yeah...Williams struggled when they were partnered with Honda and Renault too didn't they... :dozey:

it was a matter of results and expertise (williams and head) vs its my bosses money and i want a little extra. (thiessen)

[F1boat]

Honda prefer McLaren in the end and were more successful with Mclaren. Renault proved that alone they can be competitive as well.
Williams is good team, but the way they threated their drivers was awful and I have no pity for the team, when it struggles.
And last year BMW smoked Williams.

[futuretiger9]

Honda prefer McLaren in the end and were more successful with Mclaren. Renault proved that alone they can be competitive as well.
Williams is good team, but the way they threated their drivers was awful and I have no pity for the team, when it struggles.
And last year BMW smoked Williams.


Somewhere along the line, Williams lost its way, and seemed ill-equipped to truly compete in this new era of F1. I wonder if BMW sensed this, and decided that they would go their own way, and be in control of the whole package. F1 is different today to what it was even ten years ago, when Williams were with Renault. The level of intensity has moved up yet another notch.

[ratonmacias]

Honda prefer McLaren in the end and were more successful with Mclaren. Renault proved that alone they can be competitive as well.
Williams is good team, but the way they threated their drivers was awful and I have no pity for the team, when it struggles.
And last year BMW smoked Williams.


its not about sauber bmw vs williams cosworth. somebody here stated that they were better off without williams. all i say is since 2000 a bmw powered car was never as competitive as the time they were wrapped with williams chassis and aero.

when bmw was a williams partner they were on the podium on their first race and won races on their 2nd year.

so far they are behind that partnership.

[Roamy]

Somewhere along the line, Williams lost its way, and seemed ill-equipped to truly compete in this new era of F1. I wonder if BMW sensed this, and decided that they would go their own way, and be in control of the whole package. F1 is different today to what it was even ten years ago, when Williams were with Renault. The level of intensity has moved up yet another notch.

Well the principals are getting a little "long in the tooth" so when that happens you need to have fresh blood. They have put this trust in Sam Micheal. This year will tell a story for Williams. Now I don't know if Sam is the right guy but the move was right. Head was done years ago when he fought with JV cuz he didn't understand a four corner set up

[F1boat]

its not about sauber bmw vs williams cosworth. somebody here stated that they were better off without williams. all i say is since 2000 a bmw powered car was never as competitive as the time they were wrapped with williams chassis and aero.

when bmw was a williams partner they were on the podium on their first race and won races on their 2nd year.

so far they are behind that partnership.
When they spilt became clear that BMW was the stronger part of the alliance.

[jens]

its not about sauber bmw vs williams cosworth. somebody here stated that they were better off without williams. all i say is since 2000 a bmw powered car was never as competitive as the time they were wrapped with williams chassis and aero.

when bmw was a williams partner they were on the podium on their first race and won races on their 2nd year.

so far they are behind that partnership.

Williams had a better basement than Sauber, when the co-operation with BMW started. In 1999 Williams had practically everything to be successful (budget, number of workers, chassis etc), except a decent engine. So therefore it was easier to be more successful in the first years. Sauber's situation was worse before BMW bought them and their start point has been lower - no wonder that the first couple of years won't give top results, but in the long run the perspective looks better.

[ratonmacias]

Williams had a better basement than Sauber, when the co-operation with BMW started. In 1999 Williams had practically everything to be successful (budget, number of workers, chassis etc), except a decent engine. So therefore it was easier to be more successful in the first years. Sauber's situation was worse before BMW bought them and their start point has been lower - no wonder that the first couple of years won't give top results, but in the long run the perspective looks better.


lets agree to disagree. in think bmw will be no different than toyota and honda big budget some decent results but will be beaten by the "real" f1 teams like ferrari and mclaren.

[ratonmacias]

When they spilt became clear that BMW was the stronger part of the alliance.


so if williams was holding them back why did they score a litlle bit more than half the points they did the year before with williams and also half the podiums?

2005 williams bmw 66 points 4 podiums
2006 sauber bmw 36 points 2 podiums

seems to me a step backwards.

also remember the 2005 bmw was a porker because they were already commited to jumping ship. and how many times did the bmw engine blow up when the williams driven by montoya was in a good position in 2001 and 2002?

[Mikeall]

I dunno you know. BMW Sauber have a rather good windtunnel, and in BMW they now have the readies to run it 24/7, 365. They also have a naff off beefy supercomputer that helps with fluid dynamics modelling, which, from what I understand is the way things are going.

The point though, is have they laid their cards on the deck too soon?

It just stuns me that the BMW electronics division were so useless in the Williams, and now they are rather good, same with the engine, funny that.......

I wish I had a super computer to help with my fluid dynamics modelling though it would just get the wrong answer faster...