Mclaren, Ferrari and KERS in 2010

[truefan72]

I for one think that the combination of an improved chassis and KERS will become quite strong combination by season's end ( if it is not happening now already)

Once both these teams finally started to catch up on the DD thing and improved their overall aero, the addition of KERS seems to be an advantage rather than a burden to these teams.

It is also speculated that Williams are thinking about adopting kers for 2010.

I think that Ferrari and the macs will/should continue with KERS in 2010, and believe thatothers might add the system too. mainly Williams, RBR and perhaps Renault.

The redesigned cars with bigger fuel tanks and heavier cars will probably make KERS an even bigger advantage to teams running it IMO

[woody2goody]

I know it provides us with overtaking, but the problem is, the other cars can't usually overtake KERS cars.

So once a KERS car is ahead, it's staying ahead.

However it's still more interesting with some having it and some not having it.

[ioan]

I'm afraid the FOTA teams decided not to use KERS, and the only way this would change is if Williams ar another non-FOTA teams turns up with KERS in their cars and beats the whole field by quite a margin. And if that happens it will be game over if the rest of the teams didn't design cars with KERS in mind.

[Sonic]

Just to echo Ioan. FOTA agreed that none of their cars would run KERS in 2010. IIRC BMW and McLaren wanted to keep the system but fell into line with the other FOTA members to show a united front in the Max wars.

I believe that KERS will still officially be in the technical regs for next year so if one of the independants turn up with KERS it should be legal to race (can someone confirm this?). My main question is this; when KERS was first mooted it was suggested the 80bhp boost would be increased year on year. Is this still happening? Cheers in advance for any info.

[truefan72]

all valid points, but given the increased performance of KERS and certain teams now managing to find a balance, shouldn;t that agreement be revisted. I beleive the reasons for FOTA's postion on KERS for 2010 has everything to do with politics and very little to do with performance

Once Ferrari put their heads down and worked out the kins, it started to reap rewards for them. Mclaren stuck with their program all along and now its working for them. The other teams chose to abandon KERS. BrawnGP, RBR/STR, and Toyota all felt they didn't need/want it and are now having some regrets. BMW and Renault had a half hearted attempt at it and abodned it rather than continue with its development. Now Vettel and others are bitching about not having it, and it now seems like a clear advantage to have one along with the DDifuser.

Should certain teams revisit this issue in light of the new concord agreement signed and the politics fading?

My guess is nothing changes until October when we will truly see if Mosley leaves. If he does, then I do believe some teams will continue with their KERS program.

[Mark]

Yes as I understand it kers is perfectly legal for next year and any team that wants to run it can do so.

[Sleeper]

I think its a little early to say that its an actual advantage. McLaren have definitely found a lot of pace recently but they also have the advantage of the lightest KERS system that any team has developed. But lets remember that at the lst race Red Bull were having serious problems with rear tyre graining preventing them from challenging for the win, but the car is still the outright fastest thing on the grid.

Brawn cant use the Mercedes KERS system because they just cant make it fit without compromising the car, the system has been avialable to them for most of the year. It should also be noted that there fall back into the pack recently is a result of the recent updates seriously unbalancing the car for some reason, not because others have actually got a definitevly better car.

Ferrari havnt had a chance at the podium since Monaco, which is another slow speed track with more corners than straits so I think its safe to say that the jury is still out on whether KERS is a real advantage over a single lap and over a stint and not just off the start and in overtaking/defending.

[ioan]

Ferrari havnt had a chance at the podium since Monaco, which is another slow speed track with more corners than straits so I think its safe to say that the jury is still out on whether KERS is a real advantage over a single lap and over a stint and not just off the start and in overtaking/defending.

They actually got a podium at the Nurburgring and were only a couple of seconds from it in Silverstone! ;)

[Tallgeese]

The MP4-24 is not too bad actually, it's just under-developed. McLaren have a habit of producing (at times) questionable chassis (MP4-18 if I remember correctly) was never raced in anger due to handling problems so a 'D-spec' of the MP4-17 was pressed to service. Then again the MP4-24 is one of the best looking chassis, but has been somewhat slow in comparison. Had there been no testing ban you can bet that 1,000 laps later it'd be neck-&-neck with the F60.

I think all in all KERS will return in 2010, most likely for all teams eventually.

[Ari]

Hate to be a wet blanket but KERS is such a problem. FIA brought it in so overtaking could be more readily done and available. Fans want to see overtaking. Instead KERS has been used considerably more as a defensive tool to stop overtaking.

Red Bull and Brawn have been the only performance consistent teams this year. If you look at Macca and Ferrari there have been many races they've been way out of it and effectively held in the points by blocking drivers who do not have KERS.

Webber effectively won the German GP due to Massa having KERS.

FIA are stuck though. They can hardly outlaw it after the teams have spent so much money on it but in saying that it's pretty obvious to all that the KERS experiment has been long, exhaustive and probably quite unsuccessful. Yes there's a long way to go in the arguement but I think we'd have all been a lot better off if it didn't exist.

[leopard]

On KERS cars, for overtaking you might need to use kickdown feature...

[ioan]

If you look at Macca and Ferrari there have been many races they've been way out of it and effectively held in the points by blocking drivers who do not have KERS.

It's called racing.

[Ari]

It's called racing.

What is? Using a magic button to stay ahead of a faster car behind you that is without a magic button?

It's certainly a different interpretation of racing, I'll give you that.

[ioan]

What is? Using a magic button to stay ahead of a faster car behind you that is without a magic button?

It's certainly a different interpretation of racing, I'll give you that.

Magic button? Do you live in some fairy tale?!

[I am evil Homer]

What is? Using a magic button to stay ahead of a faster car behind you that is without a magic button?

It's certainly a different interpretation of racing, I'll give you that.

The other teams could have the button too...they simply chose not too, in return for lower centre of gravity. It's a trade off.

Not McLaren's fault they got KERS to work properly, seeing as it was in the rules!!

[ioan]

The other teams could have the button too...they simply chose not too, in return for lower centre of gravity. It's a trade off.

Not McLaren's fault they got KERS to work properly, seeing as it was in the rules!!

Exactly.

Some people around here would have a very different tune if the team running KERS would be, for example, Red Bull!

[Sonic]

The other teams could have the button too...they simply chose not too, in return for lower centre of gravity. It's a trade off.

Not McLaren's fault they got KERS to work properly, seeing as it was in the rules!!

Absolutely! Everyone (including me) chortled whilst the big hitters flapped around in the mid-field whilst the smaller non-kers teams cleaned up. It seems the tide is just starting to turn and KERS is becoming an advantage.

I do not believe that once everyone runs KERS the racing will regress - especially with some tweaking to the useage; perhaps CART style with a finite amount of boost per race?

[Garry Walker]

Lets hope this stupid experiment with KERS is over and done with when this season ends and sanity returns (at least in a small degree) to F1.

[Sleeper]

They actually got a podium at the Nurburgring and were only a couple of seconds from it in Silverstone! ;)
True, but it was at Silverstone that Brawn introduced their new parts that unstabilised the car, so though there was obviously some improvment tha podium was gained through two fast cars dropping down the order, a long pit stop strategy to jump ahead of the Williams and some excellent driing from Massa. The point is that it was someone elses problem that helped them to the podium and not a vastly improved performance, though thats racing.

[Sleeper]

Webber effectively won the German GP due to Massa having KERS.


So it had nothing to do with the fact that Webber was by far the fastest guy out there that day?

[truefan72]

If the current trend continues, I won;t be at all surprised to see either Renault or BMW re-introduce it by the end of the year. Neither team has anything to loose.

[Sleeper]

^Dont know about Renault but BMW already know its instillation setup comprimises aero as well as C of G. The only way around that is a B spec redesign and I cant see them doing that now.

[ioan]

True, but it was at Silverstone that Brawn introduced their new parts that unstabilised the car...

And me thinking it was because the low temperature.
Also, are they so stupid at Brawn to keep these 'unstabilising' new parts for 3 races?!

[Sonic]

And me thinking it was because the low temperature.
Also, are they so stupid at Brawn to keep these 'unstabilising' new parts for 3 races?!

Exactly. Ross Brawn seems to have gone from genius to retard in 6 months (at least that's what some seem to think). If it were as simple as removing the parts and BOSH straight back on the pace (or at least not so woefully off the pace) wouldn't the team have done it already?

[Ari]

What is? Using a magic button to stay ahead of a faster car behind you that is without a magic button?

It's certainly a different interpretation of racing, I'll give you that.

It was a play on words. Magic button is what Vettel has been calling it for half the season.

[Ari]

Exactly.

Some people around here would have a very different tune if the team running KERS would be, for example, Red Bull!

Well, I'm considerably more a Ferrari fan than RBR... and they're running KERS. My interest in RBR stops at the point in which Webber is their driver.

So....

[V12]

As long as they don't decide to plump for a standard KERS system and dumb the sport down even more, then I'm not fussed what they do, but if was up to me I'd keep it, but on the following terms:

OK, perhaps specify a maximum storage limit, but make it big enough to make running it worthwhile. After that there'd be no restriction on usage, basically use as much as you can harness from the brakes. None of this so many seconds per lap rubbish.

I'd also leave it open to the engineers how it is deployed, whether by "magic button" or simply fed back into the engine power under acceleration, basically make it completely open rather than thinly disguising it as one of those horrible "push to pass" buttons we had in Champ Car before it died, and now IndyCar too :(