FOTA have some new ideas

[christophulus]

FOTA is exploring changes that it hopes will make the series more exciting for fans and shift attention back to the track, after many high-profile battles with the FIA this season.

The teams association is believed to be close to recommending an overhaul of qualifying to the FIA. Currently, five cars are excluded after each of the first two parts of qualifying, leaving 10 cars to compete for pole in the final 10-minute session.

A plan that would make the starting lineup more unpredictable is to have five cars challenge in the preliminary session, with the two fastest progressing to challenge the next group of five until the grid is determined.

The proposals are yet to be announced by FOTA, but the group confirmed Wednesday that it will discuss with the FIA a possible expansion of the grid to 36 cars.

"Professional work has already begun within FOTA aimed at increasing the involvement of the fans and at improving the F1 show," secretary general Simone Perillo said. "Among those initiatives, one that could be interesting is the introduction of a third car on the grid.

"FOTA will seek the opinions of all the most relevant stakeholders in order to exchange ideas and define proposals for the future of Formula One."


http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/f1/news/story?id=4365067

Three car teams? Makes sense financially I guess if they're supposed to be cutting back on development - means job losses are reduced. 36 car grids would be a great sight but I really can't see any track having the facilities to deal with it.

And the qualifying as some sort of world-cup style knockout round? I'm not convinced, I like the current format personally although with the refuelling ban it may need tweaking.

[BobbyC]

The qualifying format would be similar to what is used in the Indy Racing League in the United States:

Friday: Cars are drawn to participate in Group 1 or Group 2.

Saturday:

Qualifying 1A: All cars in Group One will have time to participate in a qualifying session. A car loses its best two laps for causing a stoppage in qualifying. The six fastest cars advance to the next group.

Qualifying 1B: All cars in Group Two will have time to participate in a qualifying session. Again, same rules as Group One.

Qualifying 2: The 12 cars that advanced will face off against each other in another session. The six fastest cars advance to the finals.

Qualifying 3: The six fastest cars will run for the pole.

What FOTA's idea sounds like the IRL:

Qualifying 1a-1e: Five or six cars take session time (both cars from one team may not be in the same session). Two fastest advance.

Qualifying 2: The ten remaining cars are split into two groups. Two or three fastest advance in each session.

Qualifying 3: The remaining cars take fast time.

[William Hunt]

This could be really bad news for the 3 new teams and Force India.
They would need to be very competitive if there would be 3 McLarens, 3 Red Bulls and 3 Ferrari's in the field. I think it's a bad proposal, it could kill some small teams. If they don't qualify they will lose sponsors and go bust in no time. The cost to run 3 cars is also significant for the smaller teams. Not exactly a cost cutting proposal.

[truefan72]

for once I disagree wih fota

leave qualy as is
no 3 car teams please

oh, and please let there be refueling
makes for good strategy and good times

[emporer_k]

The qualifying proposal seems a little complicated and a bit drawn out.

And I just can't see 36 car grids happening.

[Hawkmoon]

for once I disagree wih fota

leave qualy as is
no 3 car teams please

oh, and please let there be refueling
makes for good strategy and good times

I agree here except for the refuelling. I'm glad it's going and I think it should never have been reintroduced.

Qualifying should be simple to follow. The current format is easy to understand and with refuelling gone gets back to a "fastest man wins" deal. That's what I want to see.

The refuelling idea didn't make the racing better and having the fastest cars at the front doesn't preclude good racing. Look at Montoya in 2002 (I think, might have been 2001). 6 consecutive poles and not a win to be seen.

[Saint Devote]

Three car teams do not work and have never worked, because of the Law of Diminishing Returns.

And all that happens is the team becomes inefficient.

But 36 car grids are also impossible to manage - starting and first corner collisions will become the rule!

26 car grids are sufficient.

[William Hunt]

But 36 car grids are also impossible to manage - starting and first corner collisions will become the rule!

FOTA meant 36 cars trying to qualify for 26 grid spots.
That would be very bad news for the smallest teams.
The topteams would certainly manage to get their 3 cars qualified.
The slowest cars would face multiple non qualifications and that's disastrous for the sponsors.
Bad idea.

[markabilly]

Unlimited numbers of entries for anyone or team.
No wings or aero devices

all amnufacturesr must sell engines at a set price to be determined, anyone can buy

no entry fees, no got to pay 48 million, just show up, meet safety requirements and race....

[Somebody]

Three-car teams means the possibility of podium lockouts. That=bad.

[CCWS77]

Does anyone read that and actually believe the motivation of FOTA and the manufacturer teams is to make the series "more exciting for fans and shift attention back to the track"? Just wondering because it seems people buy that stuff so long as they are going against the evil dictators of F1

[markabilly]

Does anyone read that and actually believe the motivation of FOTA and the manufacturer teams is to make the series "more exciting for fans and shift attention back to the track"? Just wondering because it seems people buy that stuff so long as they are going against the evil dictators of F1
no

[electron]

man...
3 car teams only are needed if there are not enough teams. with 3 new in next year there is no problem. No need to fix it, it aint broken.

actually there would be more sense in getting rid (finally) of the nonsense rule that all cars of a team must look exactly the same paintjob wise?! open up and atract more diverse and smaller sponsors

this new quali format sounds like a load of bull to me.
sorry, but why, oh why don't these guys just step back and look at what the tradition of the sport is that made it what it is today?

get freaking rid of all this fancy "excitement enhancing" regulations stuff!!! it is not needed and not wanted!!!

racing is exciting (or should be) not watching the execution of some bonehead rulebook from letter A to Z.

sorry ;)

[F1boat]

Honestly I am tired from qualy changes and I am vehemently against new, even more complicated system. :(

More proof that FOTA are not the answer.

[Sonic]

Whilst I am pleased that FOTA are trying to come up new ideas "for the fans", I hope they listen because clearly their ideas have gone down like a lead ballon.

Whilst I would be overjoyed to see 36 car fight it out in quali - 3 car teams ain't the way to go. As has been mentioned already the smaller teams would face extinction. As for the over complicated qualifying system; here's a "new" idea. 1 hour. No limits. Fastest guy wins. Simples.

[Mark]

No, that qualifying system is horrendously complicated. It's bad enough at the moment with the commentators having to explain the current system. Very bad idea.

I don't agree with three car teams either, as has been said, you can have a podium lock-out with a 1-2-3, that isn't good! Although I wouldn't be opposed to teams being allowed to qualify three drivers, with the top two being able to take part in the race.

We need to get the grid up to a full starting lineup of 26 before we start thinking about teams DNQ'ing.

[christophulus]

I think FOTA are trying too hard to make their mark judging by this. The balance of power has shifted slightly, so be thankful for that and take the power you've got! None of these suggestions make sense and in my opinion add nothing to the sport.

Some of the ideas they had regarding TV coverage earlier in the year were good, but changing the rules for the sake of it makes them just as bad as the FIA. I think Williams & Force India had the right idea in "going it alone" if this is what FOTA come up with!

[ArrowsFA1]

I've got no objections to more cars. If a team wants to run three, then why shouldn't they?

What I do object to is yet more tinkering with qualifying. We're been through so many different formats in recent years, and have got far too far away from what qualifying was about i.e. the quickest car setting the fastest time.

Changing qualifying again will not change the fundamental problem, which is that passing during the races is almost impossible. Shuffling the grid order in a contrived way in the hope that faster cars will overtake slower ones who qualified ahead of them is no way to improve the "show". It's as fake as 'push-to-pass' (otherwise known as KERS).

[leopard]

I'd suggest FIA to accommodate this idea whether or not it has possibility to be implemented in honor of FOTA after so many disputes including a branch-off series ends in nothing.

They might need to observe the most compromise manner to facilitate this in a view to create more entertaining sport and attract more fans. I think FIA will approve it because changing qualifying will not change form of the sport fundamentally... ;)

[truefan72]

I agree here except for the refuelling. I'm glad it's going and I think it should never have been reintroduced.

Qualifying should be simple to follow. The current format is easy to understand and with refuelling gone gets back to a "fastest man wins" deal. That's what I want to see.

The refuelling idea didn't make the racing better and having the fastest cars at the front doesn't preclude good racing. Look at Montoya in 2002 (I think, might have been 2001). 6 consecutive poles and not a win to be seen.

to me the refueling allowed for different strategies that made the races more interesting. The olny change for qualy should be getting rid of the fuel load regs in Q3.

1. To me the race with no refueling become very predictable, and will increase the gap between the top teams and the rest of the field by a long margin. With everyone on pretty much the same fuel load, and some, based on their designs having to carry more fuel aboard, the pit stop windows will all narrow down significantly ( as all the tires are the same anyway ) and barring an accident or malfunction, the top cars, will zoom away and that's that.

2. If you are midpack or if a ferrari, RBR, NMac, Brawn, had a bad qualiy, then that's the end of your race, Ther are no options to go light and try and overtake a few cars, or go heavy and outlast the other cars in front of you. Qualify 13th and you are likely to finish the race 13th.

3. Overtaking becomes that much tougher with all the cars heavy for half the race.

4. Trulli/Heidfeld trains will make a glorious comeback. get stuck behind a slower car on 70% of the tracks, and with the heavy fuel setups, you are likely to stay there for a long long while.

5. These 2009 designed cars are really not built for heavy fuel loads for an entire race, with the lack of traction control, downforce and spec tires will only rely on their marginally increased mechanical grip to trunce around the track. drivers will now be forced to delicately move their heavy cars around the track trying to preserve both tires and engine from the loads. Add tot hat the fact that these engines have to last 3 races and the gear boxes 2, then expect to see many retirements throughout the race. I guess that is one way to overtake.

6. If they have to redesign the cars to accommodate bigger tanks, then this affects all aspects of the car and essentially building completely different redesigns from aero styling, but mostly stuff under the hood. How this improves in cost cutting I don;t know. Seems to me to be a huge investment needed to get cars to be competitive in the proposed 2010 regs.

To me what refueling does is allow teams more control of their own race day destiny. Take that away and the races become that more boring and predictable.

[CNR]

what about each team has 3 cars but 1 car from each team gets knocked out



both cars from one team may not be in the same session

[Hawkmoon]

to me the refueling allowed for different strategies that made the races more interesting. The olny change for qualy should be getting rid of the fuel load regs in Q3.

1. To me the race with no refueling become very predictable, and will increase the gap between the top teams and the rest of the field by a long margin. With everyone on pretty much the same fuel load, and some, based on their designs having to carry more fuel aboard, the pit stop windows will all narrow down significantly ( as all the tires are the same anyway ) and barring an accident or malfunction, the top cars, will zoom away and that's that.

2. If you are midpack or if a ferrari, RBR, NMac, Brawn, had a bad qualiy, then that's the end of your race, Ther are no options to go light and try and overtake a few cars, or go heavy and outlast the other cars in front of you. Qualify 13th and you are likely to finish the race 13th.

3. Overtaking becomes that much tougher with all the cars heavy for half the race.

4. Trulli/Heidfeld trains will make a glorious comeback. get stuck behind a slower car on 70% of the tracks, and with the heavy fuel setups, you are likely to stay there for a long long while.

5. These 2009 designed cars are really not built for heavy fuel loads for an entire race, with the lack of traction control, downforce and spec tires will only rely on their marginally increased mechanical grip to trunce around the track. drivers will now be forced to delicately move their heavy cars around the track trying to preserve both tires and engine from the loads. Add tot hat the fact that these engines have to last 3 races and the gear boxes 2, then expect to see many retirements throughout the race. I guess that is one way to overtake.

6. If they have to redesign the cars to accommodate bigger tanks, then this affects all aspects of the car and essentially building completely different redesigns from aero styling, but mostly stuff under the hood. How this improves in cost cutting I don;t know. Seems to me to be a huge investment needed to get cars to be competitive in the proposed 2010 regs.

To me what refueling does is allow teams more control of their own race day destiny. Take that away and the races become that more boring and predictable.

What you say is possible I'll admit but I remember the days before refuelling and it didn't happen that way. Sure we had some lights-to-flag victories but we get that now with refuelling.

The strategy remains, it just shifts more to the driver and away from the pit wall. What made Prost so good was his ability to plan his race and adapt to the situation as it developed, look after his car and be fast when he needed to. I think that sort of driver is lost in modern F1 as all they really need to do is sprint from 1 pitstop to the next.

It's a bit of a downer hearing the pit radio and the engineers telling the driver that all he needs to do is stay close to the guy in front because we're running longer and we'll get him at the next stop. You know that for the next 10 laps that the driver behind is going to have little inclination to even attempt a pass.

They'll still have to stop as the tyres won't last a full distance. The strategy will become one of do we drive faster and change tyres twice or do we drive a little slower and change tyres only once?

I don't think the cost to add a bigger fuel tank will be all that great in terms of the overall cost of developing a new car. I think it'll be a lot less than developing KERS for example.

Refuelling has been an artifical way of providing positional changes. The Trulli Train might even be a good thing from time-to-time. If Jarno grabs pole we could have the entire field lined up behind him for the whole race! One missed braking point and you lose 10 places! :D

[5001]

How about giving the top finishers in every race a bye from Q1 straight to Q2 leaving 16 cars in Q1 with the fastest eight drivers from Q1 joining the top ten drivers from the last in Q2. If that does not come to fruition then I would to mainly because of the expansion of the grid to hopefully 26 cars (if someone buy the BMW team) to 30 mins Q1, 20 mins Q2 and 10 mins Q1

[truefan72]

How about giving the top finishers in every race a bye from Q1 straight to Q2 leaving 16 cars in Q1 with the fastest eight drivers from Q1 joining the top ten drivers from the last in Q2. If that does not come to fruition then I would to mainly because of the expansion of the grid to hopefully 26 cars (if someone buy the BMW team) to 30 mins Q1, 20 mins Q2 and 10 mins Q1

how about just leaving it alone for now, Qualy is interesting enough to me, that's not the problem with F1 today.

constant rule changes, spec changes and inconsistent stewards need to be fixed first before tampering with qualy yet again

[Garry Walker]

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/f1/news/story?id=4365067

Three car teams? Makes sense financially I guess if they're supposed to be cutting back on development - means job losses are reduced. 36 car grids would be a great sight but I really can't see any track having the facilities to deal with it.

And the qualifying as some sort of world-cup style knockout round? I'm not convinced, I like the current format personally although with the refuelling ban it may need tweaking.

Wow, who makes up these idiotic proposals.
Have the FOTA people been drinking methanol again?

[VkmSpouge]

I would love 36 cars...if there were 18 teams running them.

[Garry Walker]

I would love 36 cars...if there were 18 teams running them.

Why?
I am quite happy with what we have now, we dont need more lolas and other embarrassments on track.

[V12]

I'd love to see 36 car grids...well 36 car entry lists to be precise, but only if it meant 18 teams.

EDIT: Yeah what VkmSpouge said, teach me to do a quick reply without reading the second page :)

[UltimateDanGTR]

3 car teams would have been great if FOTA have had enough bulls and ignorance not to listen to the FIA and create that breakaway series they said they were going to do, 8 teams with 3 cars=good, because the 8 teams were the big teams. but 3 car teams will rui williams and force india. if fota want 36 car grids (im guessing they're thinking 12 teams without bmw any more), then they should persuade he fia to let 18 teams enter the world championship.

dont increase the number of cars per team. increase the number of teams.

and i like quali how it is currently

for once, fota are wrong IMO

[ioan]

To be honest unless they allow for customer chassis having 36 cars from 12 teams will be way cheaper than having a grid made up by 36 cars from 18 teams.

[Jon 'Massa' Beagles]

3 car teams are fine, as long as only 2 of the cars allowed to compete in the race as a podium lock-out would be terrible for the sport and sponsors etc. Bring back pre-Qualifying, it would make Friday's exciting again...it would level the playing field by giving smaller teams more laps where the big boys wouldn't be able to play.

(By Pre-Qualifying I mean that the lowest ranked 5 or so teams would try to gain places for just 2 teams for example...not that every single car would have another session.)

As for Qualifying itself why are we surprised that there's no overtaking when we line the cars up in order from fastest to slowest!?! It is complete folly. I did have an idea for quali involving the current system and reversing the various sections, so 5th would start from 1st, whilst 1st would start from 5th.

But this diultes and weakens the whole concept...F1 can not have 2 amazing and pure shows, either the race will be weak due to an exciting quali or the quali will be weak or messed with to ensure an exciting race.

Of the two I know which one I would prefer...

[Knock-on]

Prequalifying would have to have a caveat put in to allow for freak occurences.

Say that 2 drivers were competing for the championship and one was taken out during Q1. Suddenly he would be out of the title because of a freak that was not his fault.

Better to say that the current top 10 points scorers each meeting don't have to qualify.

[Jon 'Massa' Beagles]

Prequalifying would have to have a caveat put in to allow for freak occurences.

Say that 2 drivers were competing for the championship and one was taken out during Q1. Suddenly he would be out of the title because of a freak that was not his fault.

Better to say that the current top 10 points scorers each meeting don't have to qualify.

Yes...similar to what I posted up there. Except in my opinion it should be the current top 8 Constructors in the Championship that should have an automatic place in Qualifying, and then anyone else can try to pre-qualify for the remaining 4 or 6 or 8 spots or however many they wanted on the grid.