BMW quit F1

[Ranger]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77398

Announcement at 10am in Munich on Wednesday.

[Nikki Katz]

Bugger.

[ioan]

Didn't see this one coming so fast.

[Ranger]

Yeah, looks like we can only hope for a buyout at best.

[grantb4]

Can Toyota be far behind... ?

[Saint Devote]

I am rather shocked but not surprised - the auto manufacture teams are fundamentally fickle because they are not RACING TEAMS and have no desire for f1 in the same way that Williams, Mclaren and Ferrari have.

I would agree that Toyota is also not improbable.

I say good riddance to them and this will now allow real racing teams to fill their places.

Maybe Sauber will be able to continue its great racing team and THAT would be superb.

[JasonD]

Maybe Sauber will be able to continue its great racing team and THAT would be superb.

Umm, ya 13 seasons and the best they could do is 5 or 6 third place finishes.
Not exactly setting the track on fire.

[Saint Devote]

Umm, ya 13 seasons and the best they could do is 5 or 6 third place finishes.
Not exactly setting the track on fire.

And BMW given all the money spent managed one win only before quitting.

Give me a team like Sauber anyday because they are dedcated to and love f1.

It is persistence and determination that wins the day, not quitting by losers.

Further, f1 changed and Sauber changed with it by linking up with BMW - that manufacturer saw something special that they linked up in teh first place too.

Winning is important, but it is not the only thing. A team can be a worthy and respected part of f1 - such as Minardi - and have an important function.

Minardi and Sauber gave many drivers their start in f1.

[gloomyDAY]

F1 is falling apart.

Who is next? I think the whole FIA/FOTA fiasco unsettled some nerves.
At least Mosley will stay on long enough to be blamed for the failures.

Edit: Oh yeah, I guess this is why Kubica is looking for another job.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77384

I know he was interested in the WRC beforehand, but now he's going to be out of a job.
Kubica can take advantage of the situation and move over to play in the dirt.

[leopard]

I am rather shocked but not surprised - the auto manufacture teams are fundamentally fickle because they are not RACING TEAMS and have no desire for f1 in the same way that Williams, Mclaren and Ferrari have.

I would agree that Toyota is also not improbable.


Agree, Williams, McLaren and Ferrari are the breath of F1 like the way Ford and Citroen competing WRC... Actually Toyota has the same high concern on F1, their performance that is as of this stage unsatisfied worrying us can anytime demotivate them to make the same withdrawal.

Red Bull we can add to the list of teams participating F1 with the same enthusiasm, seems we will see at least one of them in some onwards period of seasons. Other than the aforesaid teams, they can easily dispersed whenever they know that the sport is not advantageous, performance is going downward, financial and sponsorship crisis, or any conditions which is not favorable for them to stay.

Hope this isn't true..., hoping them to stay.

[Cozzie]

Wow, did not expect that...

Poor on BMWs part though. One season at the back and they've had enough!

[Giuseppe F1]

Does everyone think BMW will at least keep a foot in the door as an F1 engine supplier, at least? :(

[Giuseppe F1]

Does everyone think BMW will at least keep a foot in the door as an F1 engine supplier, at least? :(


What I hope is that BMW still stays to supply engines and in effect, like when they were with Williams, BMW have always tended to 'buy' the livery and branding/naming rights, so to you and I the team will still look/oprate pretty much as it has....

....I have a feeling this is all about the need to agree to stay/sign up for F1 until at least 2012 in the new Concorde agreement and BMW as a nultinational company, didnt want to be legally tied up to that obligation in these current economic times, and so, they will be selling back more shares to Peter Sauber so he is in effect the name owner on paper, but that BMW will still be a very active player in the team...


...well, I hope!


They could just simply say, thats it, were done and F1 lose another great team!

Toyota and Renault next, I fear :( :( :( :(

[Roamy]

so the unethical, overrated, arrogant Mario gets his ass handed to him by Brawn. Well they didn't have to run and hide they should just hired a professional to run the team.

[VkmSpouge]

Didn't expect something like this to come up so soon but with plenty of time until next season hopefully it should give someone time to buy the team and keep it going into 2010.
Will any other teams follow them?

[DexDexter]

Another manufacturer does what it pleases without any consideration about the sport. Well I'll never buy their cars anyway.

[christophulus]

The Concorde Agreement is due to be signed any day now (well, so the rumours say), so in theory Renault and Toyota are going to hang around or they too would have announced a pull-out.

If BMW do leave it's probably too late for another of the new teams to take their place in 2010, which is a shame.

[leopard]

It can't go both sides, one they don't want to take the risk of the new concorde tied up until 2012 and want to sell partly or majority of the share by only supply the engine to the new owner, while on the other hand they are still active player playing dominant role and want their name dominantly recognized on the team.

I think of it has evoked williams divorced with them and started looking for engine supplier elsewhere. Actually BMW williams are a mitch match rather than currently they run japanese engined car. But such problem that they want to emerge from each other has prompted the team with a miss match.

The leave of Credit Suisse more and less has influenced team financially that may hamper team to develop more competitive car especially to comply regulation that force all teams to reset their strength from another starting point.

Why teams incorporated under FOTA have to show big ego to walk out of meeting when FIA comes up with concern about budget cap?

[ArrowsFA1]

Another manufacturer does what it pleases without any consideration about the sport.
While it's always been the case that manufacturers come and go as they please, that may be a little harsh on BMW. They have a long history of participation in many categories of motorsport - http://bmw-motorsport.com/ms/en/index.html

Although the focus is on F1, I wonder if whatever is to be announced at this news conference could affect their future involvment in the WTCC and elsewhere.

While F1 may be the most costly, it's hard for manufacturers to justify any expenditure on anything other than their core business at present.

[leopard]

Well I'll never buy their cars anyway.
It's your own problem, I don't mind them :)

[Garry Walker]

That is surprising.

[Dave B]

Where does this leave Sauber? Could they carry on as an independent team with either a customer supply of BMW engines, or teaming up with someone else?

I wonder if this opens the floodgates for Renault and Toyota to follow BMW out :s

[Dave B]

Joe Saward's blog on the matter is very good reading:
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/the-future-of-bmw-in-f1/

[Sonic]

If at first you don't succeed - Quit. :rolleyes:

If this is true (we'll find out in 10 minutes) I'll be extreemly disapointed. I've been quite vocal in my dislike about the way BMW have gone about their F1 program; from their lack of customer engine available, to the way the Williams relationship broke down - but to leave F1 when they have spent the summer as one of the teams shouting for a greater say in the way F1 is run (and have generally won that right) and all the chaos that has brought to the the circus - is IMO a pretty low blow.

:(

[leopard]

If at first you don't succeed - Quit. :rolleyes:



No it said You have used 1 out of 5 attempts. After all 5 have been used, try again in the next 15 minutes

[I am evil Homer]

They may provide engines. But where does this leave the grid? Will Prodrive be allowed in, even if it seems too late to get a 2010 package together.

[Mark]

Where does this leave Sauber? Could they carry on as an independent team with either a customer supply of BMW engines, or teaming up with someone else?

I wonder if this opens the floodgates for Renault and Toyota to follow BMW out :s

I was just going to post that. I hope that after the departure of BMW they'll still carry on as Sauber. Perhaps with the Cosworth engines we've been hearing about?

[Mark]

If at first you don't succeed - Quit. :rolleyes:


But that has always been the case for manufacturers involved in motorsport. They are only prepared to be in it for so long without sucess before they pull the plug. Unlike proper racing teams who will keep at it almost indefinitely!

As others have said, Toyota have been in F1 for a long time now and have yet to score a single win, I'm led to believe they are one of the best funded teams so their lack of sucess is an embarassment. If Toyota go where will that leave Williams?

It was the same in the BTCC, lots of manufacturers piled in as they all wanted to beat each other, then the realisation by some that wasn't going to happen, so they leave, one by one, until there are none.

[Ghostwalker]

does anyone know if there is a live coverage of this PressC?

[Sonic]

But that has always been the case for manufacturers involved in motorsport. They are only prepared to be in it for so long without sucess before they pull the plug. Unlike proper racing teams who will keep at it almost indefinitely!.

Yup. History keeps on repeating itself doesn't it?

[christophulus]

BMW confirmed they are leaving at the end of this year (BBC News)

Confirmed that they have quit.

So much for FOTA members wanting what's best for the sport.

[Sonic]

http://www.bmw-sauber-f1.com/en/index.html?refy=http%3A//www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/bmwsauber/5928476/BMW-set-to-withdraw-from-Formula-One.html#/news/~337|0/

They're gone. :eek:

http://www.bmw-sauber-f1.com/pl/#/news/~337|0/

Straight from the horses mouth.

[Sonic]

Snap! Lol

[DexDexter]

Confirmed that they have quit.

So much for FOTA members wanting what's best for the sport.

Max Mosley's views about the future of F1 are not so crazy anymore.

[electron]

well, unlike a racing-only team that only can pay the bills when they race and perform, BMW (or any other brand) has to pay their 100.000 empoyees when selling cars and have a future oriented strategy.

If the current platform F1 will not enable that or cannot be justified in the face of other measures nescessary in the economy of today, this is the logical consequence.
the current performance is the last if at all a criterium. This decission is way beyond this or even next year.

[Mark]

Anyone got a link to a news story, that just takes me to the front page of the BMW website, which is terminally broken.

[Dave B]

Sad but not entirely unexpected.

Now, can Sauber "do a Brawn" and use the remainder of this season, and BMW's cash, to develop something special for next year? Let's hope they have a future.

[christophulus]

Prodrive, Lola etc could buy the rest of BMW's operation too, depends on what the asking price is.

Once BMW discovered they couldn't spend their way out of trouble then this was inevitable. I'm annoyed that they were the team who lobbied so hard for KERS this year then never used it, and wanted it banned for next year, wasting the other teams' cash and time.

[Sonic]

I'm annoyed that they were the team who lobbied so hard for KERS this year then never used it, and wanted it banned for next year, wasting the other teams' cash and time.

Don't know why I'm defending them but.....

BMW did not want KERS banned. They simply fell into line with the rest of the FOTA teams who generally didn't.

This seems to be their "official" reason for quiting......


Premium will increasingly be defined in terms of sustainability and environmental compatibility. This is an area in which we want to remain in the lead. In line with our Strategy Number ONE, we are continually reviewing all projects and initiatives to check them for future viability and sustainability. Our Formula 1 campaign is thus less a key promoter for us.

[Giuseppe F1]

Are they not even keeping a foot in the door as an engine supplier?

It would seem that in an engine freeze this would be relatively low-cost and low investment for them to do???


BIG, BIG SHAME!

[christophulus]

I can't understand the management speak :p :

Something about "future viability and sustainability" - surely that's what FOTA is working towards?

"Sustainability and environmental compatibility" - racing KERS three or four times then ditching it is hardly a good advert for BMW loving the environment! Plus the ban on refuelling should ultimately lead to more efficient engines etc etc

To me, it seems they couldn't buy success so they're leaving before it gets too embarrassing being stuck at the back of the grid.

[Giuseppe F1]

I wonder what effect this will have on BMWs investment in the carious FORMULA BMW championships around the world???

Alot of the value I guess to drivers' sponsors in FBMW were that they got coverage on the F1 bill and also the test-drive prize of a BMW Sauber test-drive for the winner of the FORMULA BMW WORLD FINALS - so this obviously has gone and a big chunk of the the value/cache of that championship with it -

Will Formula BMW now implode, I wonder?? :(

A lesson to all the FOTA fans out there.

BMW's exit is precisely why the FIA should be calling the shots, not the manufacturers.

[Sonic]

A lesson to all the FOTA fans out there.

BMW's exit is precisely why the FIA should be calling the shots, not the manufacturers.

:up:

[V12]

Can't say I'll miss BMW too much, never really liked their attitude from 2005 onwards, but I would miss the Sauber team itself if they ceased to exist, as mentioned before here's hoping they can "do a Brawn".

[ioan]

A lesson to all the FOTA fans out there.

BMW's exit is precisely why the FIA should be calling the shots, not the manufacturers.

Don't make me laugh.
It was Bernie and Max who practically pushed out the smaller teams for the manufacturers not even 10 years ago. Were you against it back then?!

Now they changed their tune because the manufacturer teams, hit by the financial crisis, wanted more return and were getting stronger compared to the FIA and Bernie, so the 2 muppets did all they could to drive them out of F1.

[BDunnell]

What a shame - but, given their woeful season this year, unsurprising. Still, their assets will surely be a good catch for someone.

[BDunnell]

Don't make me laugh.
It was Bernie and Max who practically pushed out the smaller teams for the manufacturers not even 10 years ago. Were you against it back then?!

Now they changed their tune because the manufacturer teams, hit by the financial crisis, wanted more return and were getting stronger compared to the FIA and Bernie, so the 2 muppets did all they could to drive them out of F1.

Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle - that the attitude of the 'powers that be' has not been helpful, but that any championship based entirely on manufacturer support is likely to see them coming and going as they please based on commercial considerations? I don't think one party can be blamed for everything.

[Sonic]

A well considered post BD. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Max Mosley's views about the future of F1 are not so crazy anymore.
Indeed. Perhaps they should be seen as a self-fullfilling prophecy :p

Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle - that the attitude of the 'powers that be' has not been helpful, but that any championship based entirely on manufacturer support is likely to see them coming and going as they please based on commercial considerations? I don't think one party can be blamed for everything.
Fair point :up:

[ioan]

Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle - that the attitude of the 'powers that be' has not been helpful, but that any championship based entirely on manufacturer support is likely to see them coming and going as they please based on commercial considerations? I don't think one party can be blamed for everything.

You're obviously right and that's exactly why I dispute Tam's view about how manufacturers are evil and Mosley and the short one are the good guys.

Don't make me laugh.
It was Bernie and Max who practically pushed out the smaller teams for the manufacturers not even 10 years ago. Were you against it back then?!


I could see an all-manufacturer series as being an utter disaster a long time before that, and especially a series run by the manufacturers.

Did Max really 'push out' the smaller teams? Talk about revisionist history.

The idea that Max pushed out smaller teams is bollocks.

Max 'pushed out' those who were dubious. The world doesn't need Monteverdi's and Andrea Moda's, teams run by people who didn't pay the mechanics wages.

As I recall, of the recent "smaller teams", Prost couldn't raise the sponsorship (not unlike many teams pre-Mosley at the FIA and a regular thing in motorsport), Arrows were badly run and the other 'smaller teams' like BAR & Sauber were bought out by manufacturers of their own free will.

The cost of F1 since 2000 has spiralled directly because of the manufacturers throwing cash about, not because the FIA, Max or Bernie made them spend money.

Add to that...how the feck would a FOTA run series have prevented BMW from quitting

The start up costs alone would have brought the Munich executives out in a cold sweat.

[ArrowsFA1]

The cost of F1 since 2000 has spiralled directly because of the manufacturers throwing cash about...
But that cash was made to feel very welcome. When tobacco sponsorship was legislated out of F1 manufacturers and their money were positively encouraged.

It's only really been since those manufacturers, and teams, have increasingly been questioning why, when they have invested so much, should others see the benefits of such a large proportion of F1 income, that they have been made to feel less than welcome.

Obviously, things are a lot more complex than that, but add the global economic downturn to the mix and we see F1 where it is today.

[markabilly]

The cost of F1 since 2000 has spiralled directly because of the manufacturers throwing cash about, not because the FIA, Max or Bernie made them spend money.

Max and Bernie have been resposible for that, more than anyone else. To say nothing of the hugh "entry fee" that was being charged to new teams for the privilege to join. The real reason is below, and is part of the problem when manaufatureers control a racing team






I can't understand the management speak

Something about "future viability and sustainability" - surely that's what FOTA is working towards?

"Sustainability and environmental compatibility" - racing KERS three or four times then ditching it is hardly a good advert for BMW loving the environment! Plus the ban on refuelling should ultimately lead to more efficient engines etc etc

To me, it seems they couldn't buy success so they're leaving before it gets too embarrassing being stuck at the back of the grid.


well duh, "future viability and sustainability" means "they couldn't buy success so they're leaving before it gets too embarrassing being stuck at the back of the grid."


But that has always been the case for manufacturers involved in motorsport. They are only prepared to be in it for so long without sucess before they pull the plug. Unlike proper racing teams who will keep at it almost indefinitely!

As others have said, Toyota have been in F1 for a long time now and have yet to score a single win, I'm led to believe they are one of the best funded teams so their lack of sucess is an embarassment. If Toyota go where will that leave Williams?

It was the same in the BTCC, lots of manufacturers piled in as they all wanted to beat each other, then the realisation by some that wasn't going to happen, so they leave, one by one, until there are none.


Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle - that the attitude of the 'powers that be' has not been helpful, but that any championship based entirely on manufacturer support is likely to see them coming and going as they please based on commercial considerations? I don't think one party can be blamed for everything.

Very simple. There was a discussion around here about teams--car makers and car racers a couple of years ago.

There are those who race to sell cars

There are those who sell cars so they can race.

(i guess you can add to cars "or other stuff nowadays", as with red bull).

BMW, Toyota, Renault, Honda, Mercedes, Ford, (Red Bull) belong to the former.

Ferrari used to belong to the latter (but I am not sure about that now), the original Mac, Williams....brawn...


and beemer was always such a joke with overall managment. What they needed was a freddie A., what they did not need was to "give up for next year" when the Kube was still a contender.


But when you race to sell cars or something else and you do not get your preceived need for a bang fulfilled per some accounting/acturary, then bye bye :grenade: :burnout: :burnout: :burnout:

[V12]

Did Max really 'push out' the smaller teams? Talk about revisionist history.

The idea that Max pushed out smaller teams is bollocks.

Max 'pushed out' those who were dubious. The world doesn't need Monteverdi's and Andrea Moda's, teams run by people who didn't pay the mechanics wages.

I think it was more Bernie than Max to be fair who was guilty of this. He was quoted many times about not being worried at the size of the grid, spouting a load of politically correct "quality over quantity" bollocks, coming up with that ridiculous $48mil bond that effectively blocked entry to everyone except Toyota. Yes I know the bond was refundable but the money still had to be found in the first place.

He didn't so much "force out" smaller teams who withered and died organically, but he DID block the fresh blood that historically would have come in to replace them, and for a while seemed quite proud and smug about it. Only when reality hit with Ford, Honda and now BMW going bye-bye, did Bernie pretend to give a stuff about the smaller, specialist racing outfit, who might not generate the revenue or whatever for him, but will be around as long as they can afford to run.

I wouldn't take Red Bull's participation for granted either. They are probably going to be more loyal than a manufacturer, and run like a proper, independent racing outfit (to their benefit), but at the end of the day they are still owned by an organisation who sees F1 as a marketing exercise.

Does the world need Monteverdis and Andrea Modas? No. Does it need Jordans, Arrows, Larrousses and Ligiers (or their equivalent)? Yes.

[ioan]

I could see an all-manufacturer series as being an utter disaster a long time before that, and especially a series run by the manufacturers.

Did Max really 'push out' the smaller teams? Talk about revisionist history.


Yes he did, he seconded and helped Bernie in driving the costs through the roof and as a result the small guys, all sold out or teamed up with a big manufacturer, even McLaren.

[ioan]

I think it was more Bernie than Max to be fair who was guilty of this.

Still Max didn't insist on a budget cap back than when the small teams were going belly up, did he?
He and Bernie have an agenda. Back than it was about making more money so they drove the costs up, now it's about keeping more of the money that is generated so they are driving out the teams who have the possibilities to stand up against them.

Still Max didn't insist on a budget cap back than when the small teams were going belly up, did he?

And Montezemolo didn't care either.

[ioan]

And Montezemolo didn't care either.

Was he the president of the FIA?!
First you say it's the FIA's job to manage F1 and not that of the manufacturers, and than you come and say that Montezemolo should have taken a stance again Max and Bernie's stupid moves! :laugh:

Just make up your mind, it's either Max who's in charge or the manufacturers. Let me know what conclusion you came too. :rolleyes:

[V12]

Still Max didn't insist on a budget cap back than when the small teams were going belly up, did he?
He and Bernie have an agenda. Back than it was about making more money so they drove the costs up, now it's about keeping more of the money that is generated so they are driving out the teams who have the possibilities to stand up against them.

Not saying Max was blameless, and yes he certainly wasn't on an anti-manufacturer/pro-independent crusade in the early 00s when all was nice and rosy for them.

As a general rule of thumb though, I tend to blame Max/FIA for any technical regulation problems (e.g. narrow track cars, single tyre), and Bernie/FOM for anything on the commercial side such as the bond, 12 team limit, abandoning of traditional circuits and so on. Probably an overly simplistic view of things, but there we go.

You say they both have an agenda, primarily driven by money, and I'll agree with you 100% there, although again I would say Bernie has more to gain than Max from increased "revenue" into the F1 "brand" :s

[ArrowsFA1]

The FIA's take on it - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77402

[Big Ben]

So they quited last year when they had a chance to win something to build this year's car and the result was something that can't get into q2. And how about kers? There's no point to start talking about that. If they are in f1 to promote their image then they did a hell of a job.

I don't really get all this cost theories. Why don't they work independently from the main business and spend the amount of money the f1 team can actually gather?

[BDunnell]

He didn't so much "force out" smaller teams who withered and died organically, but he DID block the fresh blood that historically would have come in to replace them, and for a while seemed quite proud and smug about it. Only when reality hit with Ford, Honda and now BMW going bye-bye, did Bernie pretend to give a stuff about the smaller, specialist racing outfit, who might not generate the revenue or whatever for him, but will be around as long as they can afford to run.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there.



I wouldn't take Red Bull's participation for granted either. They are probably going to be more loyal than a manufacturer, and run like a proper, independent racing outfit (to their benefit), but at the end of the day they are still owned by an organisation who sees F1 as a marketing exercise.

Albeit, it must be said, an organisation that has tended to have quite a long-term presence in its major sponsorship activities.



Does the world need Monteverdis and Andrea Modas? No. Does it need Jordans, Arrows, Larrousses and Ligiers (or their equivalent)? Yes.

Again, I agree, although some of the 'characters' involved in even those teams are probably not the sort of individuals that one would welcome into one's business with open arms.

[BDunnell]

Very simple. There was a discussion around here about teams--car makers and car racers a couple of years ago.

There are those who race to sell cars

There are those who sell cars so they can race.

(i guess you can add to cars "or other stuff nowadays", as with red bull).

BMW, Toyota, Renault, Honda, Mercedes, Ford, (Red Bull) belong to the former.

Ferrari used to belong to the latter (but I am not sure about that now), the original Mac, Williams....brawn...


and beemer was always such a joke with overall managment. What they needed was a freddie A., what they did not need was to "give up for next year" when the Kube was still a contender.


But when you race to sell cars or something else and you do not get your preceived need for a bang fulfilled per some accounting/acturary, then bye bye :grenade: :burnout: :burnout: :burnout:

You surely have to agree that the connection between F1 involvement and car sales is a very nebulous one, as some manufacturers are discovering.

[markabilly]

You surely have to agree that the connection between F1 involvement and car sales is a very nebulous one, as some manufacturers are discovering.
I think they do a cost vs benefit type analysis in terms of advertizing "bang for buck" which is really more of a subjective analysis anyway (notwithstanding "experts" to the contrary trying to sell their services)......and as long as they percieve it profitable, they are there.

When they continue to lose, they see it as advertizing their incompetence.

As to a real connection, who knows?

However, if they loook at free air time purchased through ownership of a team compared to direct pruchase of ad time, they see a benefit or they do not do it, regardless of win or losing

when times r tough, advertizing always takes a cut.

to us, racing is passion, it is life.

to corporate types, it is just advertizing :rolleyes: (no different than any of those really stupid commercials you see on TV)

[ArrowsFA1]

FOTA's take on it - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77406

Was he the president of the FIA?!
First you say it's the FIA's job to manage F1 and not that of the manufacturers, and than you come and say that Montezemolo should have taken a stance again Max and Bernie's stupid moves! :laugh:

Just make up your mind, it's either Max who's in charge or the manufacturers. Let me know what conclusion you came too. :rolleyes:

No, Luca wasn't the FIA president, but now he claims to be concerned about the future when he sure as hell wasn't not long ago, when it suited him not to give a feck, so that is what I was pointing out...that FOTA are not the answer, they are the problem, a far bigger problem than the President of the FIA.

At least the President of the FIA was trying to prevent the very scenario that has again become reality today.

F1 in the hands of FOTA will be dead before its born, for precisely the reasons we have witnessed today with BMW.

Luca couldn't give the assurance that the manufacturers would stick around, so the FOTA unity and power claim is just a sham.

Seriously, my friend, I thought you might have better long vision than most.

The FIA Presdient, be it Max or Balestre or Vatanen or Todt, or Simon fecking Cowell for that matter, would have been roundly criticised for dumbing down F1 back in 2000 if he had brought in a budget cap. But, since at least 2005, Max has been on record as saying the expenditure was too much.

Now, it seems a budget cap is a pretty realistic policy to pursue.

It is one that FOTA have rejected, and now one of the staunchest FOTA members has bolted.

FOTA are the worst thing that could happen to F1 for that very reason, and its supporters should be ashamed at their gullibility. Schmucks.

[wedge]

I just hope that after all this manufacturers have learnt their lesson and the majority exist/come back as engine suppliers.

[Dave B]

In theory, would any of the rejected 2010 entrants (eg Prodrive) buy BMW-Sauber's grid slot, even if they didn't require the facilities in Hinwil?

[ioan]

No, Luca wasn't the FIA president, but now he claims to be concerned about the future when he sure as hell wasn't not long ago, when it suited him not to give a feck, so that is what I was pointing out...that FOTA are not the answer, they are the problem, a far bigger problem than the President of the FIA.

At least the President of the FIA was trying to prevent the very scenario that has again become reality today.

F1 in the hands of FOTA will be dead before its born, for precisely the reasons we have witnessed today with BMW.

Luca couldn't give the assurance that the manufacturers would stick around, so the FOTA unity and power claim is just a sham.

Seriously, my friend, I thought you might have better long vision than most.

The FIA Presdient, be it Max or Balestre or Vatanen or Todt, or Simon fecking Cowell for that matter, would have been roundly criticised for dumbing down F1 back in 2000 if he had brought in a budget cap. But, since at least 2005, Max has been on record as saying the expenditure was too much.

Now, it seems a budget cap is a pretty realistic policy to pursue.

It is one that FOTA have rejected, and now one of the staunchest FOTA members has bolted.

FOTA are the worst thing that could happen to F1 for that very reason, and its supporters should be ashamed at their gullibility. Schmucks.

Tam, this is not about long or short vision, this is about something that happened and was controlled by none other than the FIA.

They are changing their POV about F1 according to FOA's financial needs, which isn't the same with F1's best interests.

The teams are also doing what is in their own interest and in this case it's also what is in F1's best interest because it's the teams that make F1 not the FIA nor Bernie!

FOTA did support BrawnGP this winter in order to have them on the grid, so do not come to me and say they are bad and they want to have the power and other such unsubstantiated rubbish.

I agreed with you on many things that happen in F1, and I'll do it again when it will be the case, but right now I profoundly disagree and I think that you are trying to support your POV with something that is not there.

So, again, what did Max do back in the early 2000 to help the private run teams not to go belly up or not have to associate with a big manufacturer?!

He did bugger all! Nothing! Nada! Nichts! Niente! Rien! No matter how you look at it he only cared about what was best for his own image and pocket.

[ioan]

In theory, would any of the rejected 2010 entrants (eg Prodrive) buy BMW-Sauber's grid slot, even if they didn't require the facilities in Hinwil?

Depends if after all BMW Sauber hold or not an entry for next season. If they do than anyone who wants will have to buy it, unless they give up on it, but I doubt that will be the case as the team will probably be taken over by someone else.

[Sonic]

Still Max didn't insist on a budget cap back than when the small teams were going belly up, did he?
He and Bernie have an agenda. Back than it was about making more money so they drove the costs up, now it's about keeping more of the money that is generated so they are driving out the teams who have the possibilities to stand up against them.

I agree with most of your post except your last statement. BMW et all have managed to send Max packing so BMW leaving is nothing to do with standing up to the FIA.

[ioan]

I agree with most of your post except your last statement. BMW et all have managed to send Max packing so BMW leaving is nothing to do with standing up to the FIA.

You're right, BMW leaving is more to do with the stupid technical rules.
The fact that they have a bad season played a role too, and they even said so in their press conference, but they pointed it out that the fact that the sport does not hold any relevance for what their image is on the automotive market, as leaders of innovative and environment friendly manufacturers, is what makes it clear for them that there is no use to continue.
They don't sell more car by being in F1, because they have a very well established customer base, and not many would consider buying the extra money just because they are in F1.
Basically they would have stayed in F1 if they could have used the competitive environment to develop technology that is relevant to their road car division, and this isn't the case, and let's not forget that Honda said pretty much the same thing.

[Sonic]

I don't believe for a second that their primary reason for leaving was lack of KERS. Let's remember that they dropped the technology themselves willingly, they also fell into line with FOTA and accepted KERS would not be part of the cars next season. You cannot say "wwe are quitting because of the rules" when they themselves had a hand in the rules.

IMO failure to win the WDC this year is the main reason

[ioan]

I don't believe for a second that their primary reason for leaving was lack of KERS. Let's remember that they dropped the technology themselves willingly, they also fell into line with FOTA and accepted KERS would not be part of the cars next season. You cannot say "wwe are quitting because of the rules" when they themselves had a hand in the rules.

IMO failure to win the WDC this year is the main reason

It's not about lack of KERS, it's about lack of any possibility to innovate in F1 nowadays.

The BMW Sauber team was said to be almost independent financially form the BMW company, so money or loss of money isn't really why they pulled out. They simply do not want their name associated with what F1 represents now, because they want to show that they are an innovative company that is interested by new and clean technologies, something F1 isn't.

I'm pretty sure that if teh rules for 2010 would have allowed the use of diesel engines and extensive use of hybrid systems BMW would have stayed because they would have use the team to develop and showcase technologies that are and can be used in their road cars.

[markabilly]

It's not about lack of KERS, it's about lack of any possibility to innovate in F1 nowadays.

Corporate marketing talk


You're right, BMW leaving is more to do with the stupid technical rules.
The fact that they have a bad season played a role too, and they even said so in their press conference, but they pointed it out that the fact that the sport does not hold any relevance for what their image is on the automotive market, as leaders of innovative and environment friendly manufacturers, is what makes it clear for them that there is no use to continue.
They don't sell more car by being in F1, because they have a very well established customer base, and not many would consider buying the extra money just because they are in F1.
Basically they would have stayed in F1 if they could have used the competitive environment to develop technology that is relevant to their road car division, and this isn't the case, and let's not forget that Honda said pretty much the same thing.


Correct: "that the sport does not hold any relevance for what their image is on the automotive market"

Part of the marketing reason broadcast for their image to help sell cars: "Basically they would have stayed in F1 if they could have used the competitive environment to develop technology that is relevant to their road car division, and this isn't the case, and let's not forget that Honda said pretty much the same thing."

Real reason: advertizing their image to sell cars, not to go racing, and some accountant says the numbers just do not add up right now, and not winng a WCC or a wdc, is what makes the decision easier to quit, but even if they did win it all, if the accountant still says ain't worth it....Bye bye.

all the rest is just marketing talk, they can do their development via testing and labs.....today races are won in wind tunnels using computers, not on the track

[ioan]

Real reason: advertizing their image to sell cars, not to go racing, and some accountant says the numbers just do not add up right now, and not winng a WCC or a wdc, is what makes the decision easier to quit, but even if they did win it all, if the accountant still says ain't worth it....Bye bye.

The BMW Sauber team was living at least 90% out of the sponsorship money not from BMW money.
It has nothing to do with any BMW accountant.

[Sonic]

The BMW Sauber team was living at least 90% out of the sponsorship money not from BMW money.
It has nothing to do with any BMW accountant.

True, or the cost cap would have found more fans.

Toyota has moved to deny speculation that it is poised to follow BMW out of Formula 1 at the end of 2009.

Amid widespread suggestions that BMW's departure from the sport will be followed by another manufacturer imminently, rumours have revolved around Toyota.

This has been prompted by the fact that Toyota has not yet signed the Concorde Agreement that would tie it to F1, and the team's F1 president John Howett is in Japan at the moment discussing strategy with the Japanese car manufacturer's chiefs.

However, a spokesman for the Toyota Motor Corporation has dismissed any talk that Toyota is considering its future in F1, with its Concorde Agreement signature expected to be confirmed in the next few days.

"Through cost reduction we will continue our Formula 1 activities," said the spokesman. "Our situation remains unchanged."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77407

That last bit should read "Our situation remains unchanged....until it changes, which could be tonight"

Oh, and has anybody got a link to a specific cost-cutting measure proposed by FOTA for 2010?

[Ranger]

That last bit should read "Our situation remains unchanged....until it changes, which could be tonight"

Exactly, they're fully committed to F1, right up until the moment they are not.

Lets just hope there are the buyers out there.

[markabilly]

The BMW Sauber team was living at least 90% out of the sponsorship money not from BMW money.
It has nothing to do with any BMW accountant.
then there is hope that the team will go on in some other form, and beemer was getting a bargain to a certain extent, but for any large corporation, it still come down to dollars and not passion for the sport and that is what seperates them from you and me

[ArrowsFA1]

Has the Concorde Agreement been finalised? The last Autosport report detailing progress I can find (24th July (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77208)) said "...moves to find a settlement hit late snags at the Hungarian Grand Prix."

If no final agreement has yet been reached then it would be rather difficult for any of the teams (or the FIA for that matter) to sign it.

[nigelred5]

Ive stated my general disapproval for direct manufacturer ownership of racing teams in alll series numerous times. If an engine supplier pulls out, there is usually someone else to step in that will sell or lease engines. When a manufacturer owned team leaves, we loose cars and teams that are not nearly as easy to replace. I'd just as soon see all of the teams return to a more independent nature, which is essentially shaking out as we speak and thats fine with me.

Ferrari has always been the exception, they sell cars to race. Lotus was more or less the same, but the idea that open wheel racing sells cars has always been questionable to me. Sports cars, drag cars, I can see it whole heartedly, but F1? Questionable at best which is more or less what BMW just said. It would be nice to see them remain as an engine manufacturer, however someone will fill the void. if Peter Sauber will steb back in, I thing the team will be fine.

[BDunnell]

You're right, BMW leaving is more to do with the stupid technical rules.
The fact that they have a bad season played a role too, and they even said so in their press conference, but they pointed it out that the fact that the sport does not hold any relevance for what their image is on the automotive market, as leaders of innovative and environment friendly manufacturers, is what makes it clear for them that there is no use to continue.
They don't sell more car by being in F1, because they have a very well established customer base, and not many would consider buying the extra money just because they are in F1.
Basically they would have stayed in F1 if they could have used the competitive environment to develop technology that is relevant to their road car division, and this isn't the case, and let's not forget that Honda said pretty much the same thing.

I'm afraid I simply don't believe BMW when they said this. Their withdrawal is far more to do with the fact that they are having an awful season and are no longer prepared to take the financial hit, I'm sure. The fact of the new technical rules not tying in with some idea of a corporate 'vision' is neither here nor there. BMW would only worry about this if they felt that a clash of interests between the new F1 rules and their corporate image was in any way truly harmful to the BMW brand, and thus its car sales. Clearly, this isn't true, because most car buyers would neither understand why this was, nor care. No, the BMW decision is all down to their bad 2009 F1 performance and the impact of the recession, I'm sure.

[BDunnell]

The BMW Sauber team was living at least 90% out of the sponsorship money not from BMW money.
It has nothing to do with any BMW accountant.

While this may be true, the recession is still a potent factor. At a time when the economic downturn is having an effect on car sales and the company's bottom line, should it be seen to be investing money in an unsuccessful F1 programme?

[BDunnell]

Depends if after all BMW Sauber hold or not an entry for next season. If they do than anyone who wants will have to buy it, unless they give up on it, but I doubt that will be the case as the team will probably be taken over by someone else.

Or different bits of the Hinwil facility could be sold to different people. One could imagine aerospace companies being interested in the wind tunnel, for example - after all, they regularly hire it.

[Mark]

The question now is, what of Kubica and Heidfeld? Certainly Kubica will be in demand. I can well see him going to Renault to replace Alonso.

[BDunnell]

Certainly Kubica will be in demand.

His star has fallen a bit, though.

[ioan]

I'm afraid I simply don't believe BMW when they said this.

You mean they are liars and you know better. Great.

[wedge]

Oh, and has anybody got a link to a specific cost-cutting measure proposed by FOTA for 2010?

No one cared to respond to my thread :(

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134325

[ioan]

While this may be true, the recession is still a potent factor. At a time when the economic downturn is having an effect on car sales and the company's bottom line, should it be seen to be investing money in an unsuccessful F1 programme?

At a time when unemployment is sky high should a company be seen leaving 700 people without jobs?

[markabilly]

At a time when unemployment is sky high should a company be seen leaving 700 people without jobs?
Good point.
but when things are bad, in our country, jobs go first.

what is funny most of the local and state govts are revenue driven, so when things are good, they spend more and more.

When things are bad, they cut more and more, esp jobs.

Then the feds come in and try to do deficit spending to create jobs, while the state and locals are cutting jobs.

meanwhile when a company gets in trouble, not only jobs get cut, but advertizing and marketing as well----If you are not trying to sell your product thro ads, then how is it going to sell????
but then if no one has a job, who is going to buy the stuff anyway

the downward spiral......

of course for any company even as it slids into oblivion, the last thing cut is.........BIG BONUSES for big execs...just look at AIG (one very small example of millions)

[BDunnell]

You mean they are liars and you know better. Great.

That has nothing at all to do with it. I'm just saying what appears to be common sense - that one should never take corporate press releases at face value without very good reason.

[BDunnell]

At a time when unemployment is sky high should a company be seen leaving 700 people without jobs?

700 people working in a non-core activity are probably viewed as more dispensable than 700 people working in a regular BMW plant.

[DexDexter]

It's not about lack of KERS, it's about lack of any possibility to innovate in F1 nowadays.

The BMW Sauber team was said to be almost independent financially form the BMW company, so money or loss of money isn't really why they pulled out. They simply do not want their name associated with what F1 represents now, because they want to show that they are an innovative company that is interested by new and clean technologies, something F1 isn't.

I'm pretty sure that if teh rules for 2010 would have allowed the use of diesel engines and extensive use of hybrid systems BMW would have stayed because they would have use the team to develop and showcase technologies that are and can be used in their road cars.

Lots of ifs and buts, the bottom line is you can never please the manufacturers enough to keep them all in the sport, it is just natural for them to leave when they please. That's why they should not be allowed to buy teams IMO. If BMW were just an engine supplier for Sauber, Sauber would continue next year with a different engine, I'm sure the sponsorship from Petronas would be there as well since Peter Sauber brought the company into F1. Thank God Williams didn't let BMW buy the team!

[Mark]

Quite so. Engine manufacturers have come and gone from F1 all the time over the years. But before all a team did was bolt a different engine into their car and continued. Most of the big teams (except Ferrari of course) have had a variety of different engine manfacturers powering their cars.

Williams have had Ford, Honda, Renault, BMW and Toyota, plus a couple of interim suppliers. McLaren have had Ford, Honda and Mercedes amongst others.

[ioan]

700 people working in a non-core activity are probably viewed as more dispensable than 700 people working in a regular BMW plant.

Still the government, the press and all those people paying taxes used to pay unemployment may think otherwise.

[V12]

Lots of ifs and buts, the bottom line is you can never please the manufacturers enough to keep them all in the sport, it is just natural for them to leave when they please. That's why they should not be allowed to buy teams IMO. If BMW were just an engine supplier for Sauber, Sauber would continue next year with a different engine, I'm sure the sponsorship from Petronas would be there as well since Peter Sauber brought the company into F1. Thank God Williams didn't let BMW buy the team!

Amen to that.

Maybe I'm a bit biased, being brought up on a diet of Williams-Renaults, McLaren-Hondas and Benetton-Fords and the like, but I've always felt that the correct place for a "race-to-sell" manufacturer (rather than a traditionally sell-to-race manufacturer like Ferrari) in F1 is as an engine supplier or partner. Nothing wrong with investing heavily in a team, with a crossover of technology and personnel, hell even becoming title sponsor like BMW did with Williams, but owning teams is taking it a step too far.

Although having said that I have less of an issue with Toyota who at least built their operation from scratch. But if BMW don't get rescued Brawn style then we've lost Sauber as a net result. Same with Renault and Benetton. It was almost the case with Stewart and Jaguar before Red Bull stepped in.

[ioan]

McLaren have had Ford, Honda and Mercedes amongst others.

Porsche too.

[Mark]

Porsche too.

And Peugeot but who's counting :p

[ioan]

Lots of ifs and buts, the bottom line is you can never please the manufacturers enough to keep them all in the sport, it is just natural for them to leave when they please. That's why they should not be allowed to buy teams IMO. If BMW were just an engine supplier for Sauber, Sauber would continue next year with a different engine, I'm sure the sponsorship from Petronas would be there as well since Peter Sauber brought the company into F1. Thank God Williams didn't let BMW buy the team!

I'm afraid that if BMW woudln't have bought Sauber there might not have been a Sauber F1 team at all already for some time.

[woody2goody]

So will the Sauber team be bought or is this the end of them?

Also what of Heidfeld and Kubica?

[DexDexter]

I'm afraid that if BMW woudln't have bought Sauber there might not have been a Sauber F1 team at all already for some time.

I don't know, when BMW bought them they had solid sponsorship from Petronas and Credit Suisse, but I guess we will never know.

[Giuseppe F1]

And Peugeot but who's counting :p

Well if we ARE counting McLaren also tested the Chrysler-badged Lamborghini units in '93 :)

[ioan]

I don't know, when BMW bought them they had solid sponsorship from Petronas and Credit Suisse, but I guess we will never know.

Peter Sauber said at the time that he sold the team in order to insure it's survival, maybe he could have kept it alive for a couple more years but I don't know how it would have turned out last season and this season.

[ioan]

Well if we ARE counting McLaren also tested the Chrysler-badged Lamborghini units in '93 :)

You mean they blew them! :D

[V12]

I'm afraid that if BMW woudln't have bought Sauber there might not have been a Sauber F1 team at all already for some time.

I'm not so sure about that, they seemed solidly funded (the estimation that reputedly 90% of BMW Sauber's funds comes from sponsorship would back this up), and weren't exactly struggling on the track either, being solid midfielders. Without the BMW takeover they certainly wouldn't have been as quick in 2007 and 2008, but they'd probably have been carrying on as solid midfielders around the level of Williams in their post-BMW years, nothing more, nothing less.

I'd say in recent years, the only takeovers that I think have been necessary to save a team from going out of existence:

Jaguar -> Red Bull (Manufacturer quit)
Jordan -> Midland (No money)
Honda -> Brawn (Manufacturer quit)
Minardi -> Toro Rosso (No money)

And maybe Tyrrell->BAR, although all BAR did really was buy Ken's FOCA licence so the net effect was effectively Tyrrell disappearing anyway and BAR starting pretty much from scratch.

But the takeovers like Sauber->BMW, Benetton->Renault, BAR->Honda, Stewart->Jaguar, were all about a manufacturer deciding that rather taking on the more honourable Toyota route of starting their own operation, it would be a more efficient investment to take over an existing stable team and infrastructure.

[BDunnell]

Still the government, the press and all those people paying taxes used to pay unemployment may think otherwise.

In my opinion, they would all tend to hold the view that a company such as BMW should concentrate on its core activities, no matter whether the impact on jobs is the same.

[scaliwag]

I have stated constantly over the years, NO AUTO MANUFACTURER SHOULD BE ALLOWED A FACTORY TEAM IN F1, THEY ARE NOT RACING TEAMS IN THE TRUE SENSE, in my opinion auto manufacturers should only be allowed to support F1 by supporting a minimum of three teams, all the teams in F1 should be privateers.

So let's look at BMW, they together with the rest of fota (with the exception of two teams) refused to accept Mosley's funding cap, and went so far as to force Mosley's de facto resignation, whilst at the same time knowing BMW could not afford to continue racing.
I don't accept BMW's excuse of poor results, for if that were true, and BMW were committed to F1 they would have replaced the management of the racing team, they have not done so.
The motor manufacturers are guilty of complicity in the destruction of F1, the FIA are guilty of allowing it to happen, and Berni is guilty of encouraging it through greed and short sightedness, the sooner F1 returns to a grid full of privateers the better.

Regards scaliwag.

[ioan]

...refused to accept Mosley's funding cap...whilst at the same time knowing BMW could not afford to continue racing.

This is BS. The team was self funded. BMW only produced the engines. Money wasn't a problem.

[555-04Q2]

I have stated constantly over the years, NO AUTO MANUFACTURER SHOULD BE ALLOWED A FACTORY TEAM IN F1, THEY ARE NOT RACING TEAMS IN THE TRUE SENSE, in my opinion auto manufacturers should only be allowed to support F1 by supporting a minimum of three teams, all the teams in F1 should be privateers.

So let's look at BMW, they together with the rest of fota (with the exception of two teams) refused to accept Mosley's funding cap, and went so far as to force Mosley's de facto resignation, whilst at the same time knowing BMW could not afford to continue racing.
I don't accept BMW's excuse of poor results, for if that were true, and BMW were committed to F1 they would have replaced the management of the racing team, they have not done so.
The motor manufacturers are guilty of complicity in the destruction of F1, the FIA are guilty of allowing it to happen, and Berni is guilty of encouraging it through greed and short sightedness, the sooner F1 returns to a grid full of privateers the better.

Regards scaliwag.

Thats rediculous. Ferrari is an Auto Manufacturer. You mean Ferrari should not compete in F1 then :crazy:

[N. Jones]

Three years, no luck and they are out? Seems strange to me.
Who will buy the team?

[Sonic]

And Peugeot but who's counting :p

You can't count that motorised firework factory as an engine! Was it Brundle at Silverstone? KABOOOOOM!

[ClarkFan]

He didn't so much "force out" smaller teams who withered and died organically, but he DID block the fresh blood that historically would have come in to replace them, and for a while seemed quite proud and smug about it. Only when reality hit with Ford, Honda and now BMW going bye-bye, did Bernie pretend to give a stuff about the smaller, specialist racing outfit, who might not generate the revenue or whatever for him, but will be around as long as they can afford to run.

I wouldn't take Red Bull's participation for granted either. They are probably going to be more loyal than a manufacturer, and run like a proper, independent racing outfit (to their benefit), but at the end of the day they are still owned by an organisation who sees F1 as a marketing exercise.

Does the world need Monteverdis and Andrea Modas? No. Does it need Jordans, Arrows, Larrousses and Ligiers (or their equivalent)? Yes.

I absolutely agree with your analysis. I was deeply disappointed (read: gutted) when Team Lotus withered and then died, but at that point in the history of F1 there were still new teams coming to replace them. A great tradition was lost, but the championship continued. The current regimen has created a closed shop, where the loss of each team creates a crisis. Set against the backdrop of a massive worldwide drop in automobile sales, that system puts a hugely expensive racing series squarely in the crosshairs.

And while the idea of 3 new times is good, they are still just additions to the same process. If the entry were thrown open, with racing-based criteria to qualify a team (fast enough) rather than financial ones you would get a far healthier series.

In fact, I missed what harm the fly-by-night teams did to the series. Yes their operations were bad, but when they showed up to races they were pushed out in pre-qualifying unless they were actually faster than more established teams. In that healthier systems, sluggard teams like Minardi and Midland would have been pushed out by better operators, rather than hanging on for years and finally being sold for their franchise value.

Screen teams's designs for safety, maybe make them post bonds for each race to ensure the bills are paid for that race, and then let them run. Push the manufacturers back into the role of only supplying engines (Ferrari, as always, excepted). Make the engine formula more relevant to the modern world, by driving it through fuel consumption so that the manufacturers can count "green" points with how F1 research improves the efficiency of their lines (and maybe getting a more interesting mix of designs in the field).

And, just to be safe, shoot Max so he can't use this to leverage another return (drive a stake through his heart, too)!

ClarkFan

[Dave B]

The question now is, what of Kubica and Heidfeld? Certainly Kubica will be in demand. I can well see him going to Renault to replace Alonso.
There's a suggestion - nothing more - that he fancies a shot at WRC:


In the week when Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen will make his World Rally Championship debut on Rally Finland, BMW Formula 1 driver Robert Kubica says he expects to follow the Finn into rallying.

Answering readers' questions in this month's F1 Racing magazine, Kubica talks about his enjoyment of the sport and his admiration of the drivers in the WRC.

Full story: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77384

[BDunnell]

This is BS. The team was self funded. BMW only produced the engines. Money wasn't a problem.

So not a single Euro cent of BMW money went into that team - not one?

[BDunnell]

Three years, no luck and they are out?

I'm not sure 'luck' has much to do with it.

[Sonic]

I absolutely agree with your analysis. I was deeply disappointed (read: gutted) when Team Lotus withered and then died, but at that point in the history of F1 there were still new teams coming to replace them. A great tradition was lost, but the championship continued. The current regimen has created a closed shop, where the loss of each team creates a crisis. Set against the backdrop of a massive worldwide drop in automobile sales, that system puts a hugely expensive racing series squarely in the crosshairs.

And while the idea of 3 new times is good, they are still just additions to the same process. If the entry were thrown open, with racing-based criteria to qualify a team (fast enough) rather than financial ones you would get a far healthier series.

In fact, I missed what harm the fly-by-night teams did to the series. Yes their operations were bad, but when they showed up to races they were pushed out in pre-qualifying unless they were actually faster than more established teams. In that healthier systems, sluggard teams like Minardi and Midland would have been pushed out by better operators, rather than hanging on for years and finally being sold for their franchise value.

Screen teams's designs for safety, maybe make them post bonds for each race to ensure the bills are paid for that race, and then let them run. Push the manufacturers back into the role of only supplying engines (Ferrari, as always, excepted). Make the engine formula more relevant to the modern world, by driving it through fuel consumption so that the manufacturers can count "green" points with how F1 research improves the efficiency of their lines (and maybe getting a more interesting mix of designs in the field).

And, just to be safe, shoot Max so he can't use this to leverage another return (drive a stake through his heart, too)!

ClarkFan

ClarkFan for FIA president! Some excellent and very valid points, especially on the Max thing which I had thought much the same as you.

[Somebody]

Actually, I wonder if BMW's pullout isn't political rather than monetary. Just as Mad Max and his (allegedly) Nazi orgy was fading, along comes Bernie with his Hitler-admiration...

[ClarkFan]

And Peugeot but who's counting :p
Ron Dennis is surely trying not to count/remember that episode! :p

ClarkFan

[Sonic]

Peter Sauber not sounding too hopeful of taking control of the team again....

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=338872&FS=F1

Anyone got something to back this up?

[V12]

And while the idea of 3 new times is good, they are still just additions to the same process. If the entry were thrown open, with racing-based criteria to qualify a team (fast enough) rather than financial ones you would get a far healthier series.

In fact, I missed what harm the fly-by-night teams did to the series. Yes their operations were bad, but when they showed up to races they were pushed out in pre-qualifying unless they were actually faster than more established teams. In that healthier systems, sluggard teams like Minardi and Midland would have been pushed out by better operators, rather than hanging on for years and finally being sold for their franchise value.


Oh don't get me wrong, I dont think your Lifes and Andrea Modas of this world did any harm to F1, and add to the wonderful character of the sport's history, but their absence doesn't massively detract either. However, a lot of the smaller, independent, not overly successful, but solidly run outfits are by contrast ESSENTIAL to the sport's health, and they've been by and large missing for quite some time.

Also agree with everything you have to say about transparent competition such as qualifying and pre-qualifying for weeding out any excess stragglers, rather than a non-transparent FIA auditing process. F1 desperately needs to ditch its current franchising system and let the nature of competition decide who's in and who's out.

[ioan]

So not a single Euro cent of BMW money went into that team - not one?

I doubt the engines were that cheap.
But having a factory team in F1 for some 10 millions a year is not really going to sent them bankrupt given their turnover.

[ioan]

However, a lot of the smaller, independent, not overly successful, but solidly run outfits are by contrast ESSENTIAL to the sport's health, and they've been by and large missing for quite some time.

Force India, Williams, STR, BrawnGP, that's 4 out of 10, not that bad.

[BDunnell]

I doubt the engines were that cheap.
But having a factory team in F1 for some 10 millions a year is not really going to sent them bankrupt given their turnover.

It's more the message that participation in a sport - in this case, a famously expensive sport - sends out.

[Somebody]

Force India, Williams, STR, BrawnGP, that's 4 out of 10, not that bad.

Uh... why count Toro Rosso as different from Red Bull?

[ioan]

Uh... why count Toro Rosso as different from Red Bull?

Because they were 50% owned by Berger until last season.

And because they only get little money compared to what RedBull have at disposal. They are basically only there for testing the new RedBull drivers before they are sent over to RBR.

Probably I should add RedBull to that list as they are basically owned by one person.

That makes 5 teams out of 10. Not bad.

Push the manufacturers back into the role of only supplying engines (Ferrari, as always, excepted)

Now, I'm no big fan of FOTA, but that is, at its heart, impossible, unfair and illegal.

If a manufacturer wants to be in F1, as a full team entrant, they shouldn't be stopped. But once in, they should be controlled, not controlling.

The problems have been that nobody else could afford to enter, due to the manufacturer driven spending arms-race, and that the manufacturers have been acting like they own the place.

The sooner an entrant is just that, an entrant, the better.

[BDunnell]

Now, I'm no big fan of FOTA, but that is, at its heart, impossible, unfair and illegal.

If a manufacturer wants to be in F1, as a full team entrant, they shouldn't be stopped.

Absolutely right...



The problems have been that nobody else could afford to enter, due to the manufacturer driven spending arms-race, and that the manufacturers have been acting like they own the place.

The sooner an entrant is just that, an entrant, the better.

...but, as I said earlier, I don't feel the manufacturers can shoulder the whole of the blame. Things are rarely so clear-cut, and I don't think this is.

[yodasarmpit]

FIA 1 -FOTA 0

A bad day for the sport indeed, it was obvious that without budget caps (or some sort of spending restriction) we would see teams leave, Honda, now BMW with possibly Toyota and Renault next.

I dearly hope I'm wrong, and that someone like Prodrive come in and buy the BMW team.

[booger]

Speaking as a marketer and consumer. I have been considering a BMW as my everyday driver. They're sleek, fast, fun to drive and comfortable. They are now xed off my list. Now all they have left is Rahal's tin tops and motorcycle powered formula cars. Can't see much development happening here. And I don't want to drive a car that makes my friends and associates ask "Didn't they USE TO BE IN F-1? Mercedes just took their place in my book.

[ioan]

Speaking as a marketer and consumer. I have been considering a BMW as my everyday driver. They're sleek, fast, fun to drive and comfortable. They are now xed off my list. Now all they have left is Rahal's tin tops and motorcycle powered formula cars. Can't see much development happening here. And I don't want to drive a car that makes my friends and associates ask "Didn't they USE TO BE IN F-1? Mercedes just took their place in my book.

:down:

[BDunnell]

Speaking as a marketer and consumer. I have been considering a BMW as my everyday driver. They're sleek, fast, fun to drive and comfortable. They are now xed off my list. Now all they have left is Rahal's tin tops and motorcycle powered formula cars. Can't see much development happening here. And I don't want to drive a car that makes my friends and associates ask "Didn't they USE TO BE IN F-1? Mercedes just took their place in my book.

I would have thought that other reasons should come into play when buying a car...

[ClarkFan]

The BMW Sauber team was living at least 90% out of the sponsorship money not from BMW money.
It has nothing to do with any BMW accountant.
That was true of Sauber but I wonder if it was still true for BMW. Credit Suisse was one of Sauber's major sponsors and they are gone. (I would be surprised to see any banks as major sponsors in 2010.) Can Petronas, Intel and a couple of minor sponsors really be underwriting all the expenses of a top-tier (in budget, if not results) F1 team? And are there engine development expenses that are off the "official" books of the team?

ClarkFan

[ClarkFan]

Speaking as a marketer and consumer. I have been considering a BMW as my everyday driver. They're sleek, fast, fun to drive and comfortable. They are now xed off my list. Now all they have left is Rahal's tin tops and motorcycle powered formula cars. Can't see much development happening here. And I don't want to drive a car that makes my friends and associates ask "Didn't they USE TO BE IN F-1? Mercedes just took their place in my book.
Don't let F1 drive your real life decisions. It's not that important.

ClarkFan

[ioan]

That was true of Sauber but I wonder if it was still true for BMW.

I was saying that about BMW Sauber, not about Sauber.

[Dave B]

Speaking as a marketer and consumer. I have been considering a BMW as my everyday driver. They're sleek, fast, fun to drive and comfortable. They are now xed off my list. Now all they have left is Rahal's tin tops and motorcycle powered formula cars. Can't see much development happening here. And I don't want to drive a car that makes my friends and associates ask "Didn't they USE TO BE IN F-1? Mercedes just took their place in my book.
Do you use marketing to decide all your major purchases? :dozey:

[Bagwan]

This is old news .
Have you guys heard that the red shoe is back in town ?

I just looked at the newsnow site , and there are a few minor bits about the loss of BMW , and a load of stories about the return of the shoe .

The loss of a manufacturer was just upstaged by the return of a driver .

Luca just upstaged Max , during his "I told you so" speech .
Mark one for FOTA in the propaganda war .

[ClarkFan]

Now, I'm no big fan of FOTA, but that is, at its heart, impossible, unfair and illegal.

If a manufacturer wants to be in F1, as a full team entrant, they shouldn't be stopped. But once in, they should be controlled, not controlling.

The problems have been that nobody else could afford to enter, due to the manufacturer driven spending arms-race, and that the manufacturers have been acting like they own the place.

The sooner an entrant is just that, an entrant, the better.
I meant "push" in the sense of limiting or eliminating their advantages in everything but engine development. There may be some natural adavantage for a manufacturer in that arena, but the current chassis/aerodynamic developments bear little to road cars. Isn't that why the "Renault" F1 team is based in F1 alley in the UK?

At this point even "pushing" may be unnecessary. In the current economic climate, with a vehicle sales recovery likely to be weak, I wouldn't be surprised if all the non-Ferrari manufacturers are gone within 2-3 years, with the possible exception of the McLaren-Mercedes partnership. Turns out the manufacturers can't afford the financial arms race, either.

ClarkFan

[ClarkFan]

I was saying that about BMW Sauber, not about Sauber.
All right, and I wonder if the numbers hold up. I don't have any special insight here, but how much could Petronas be paying? No other company with logos on the car, including Intel, is likely to be paying anything significant to the budget of the team. Is there any other information that you have?

ClarkFan

[jens]

Well, the A-reason for withdrawal - whatever people keep saying here - is financial crisis. If BMW was doing well at car markets, they wouldn't have needed to take a critical look at their costs, and how to cut them as soon as possible. Success or lack of it isn't always the argument for leaving. For example Renault decided to leave after 1997 despite enormous amount of success. It's more the matter of the value a manufacturer gets from F1 - either by performing successfully or not. But success, of course, is helpful.

But as BMW decided to cut costs and chose F1 for it, then come the other reasons for withdrawal, where probably this year's failure could have played a notable part, but I think other aspects have contributed as well, like F1 politics and lack of innovation (like engine freeze) in the series. It's never "black and white", decision is taken based on a lot of pro-and-con arguments. There is even a suspicion that Max's "Nazi-background" hasn't boded well for German manufacturers plus ACEA's recent vocal opposition to Max hasn't obviously helped either. And considering Concorde agreement was supposed to be signed any time soon, the decision to leave right before signing it can't be completely coincidental.

--

A huge blow to the reputation of Mario Theissen. Once he took a huge gamble, deciding that he could succeed more with his "own team", rather than in co-operation with Williams. Until this year it looked like the gamble is going to pay off, but now has suddenly ended ingloriously. Looking at the outcome, it's not surprising that Dr Mario kept pushing on the development of the F1.09 car unlike last year. Probably he felt the pressure and has tried to save from this season, what is possible. BMW has set itself very clear targets for each year, but looks like in current situation they seem to have taken them very literally.

What concerns the new "replacement" team, then the issue here is that the new season is coming closer and closer and any newcomer really doesn't have time to really start designing 2010 F1 car. Lola already stopped their work, etc. The only possibility to get 13 teams next year is if the Hinwil factory is going to be sold. If BMW does "a Honda" and sells it by 1€ for Peter Sauber, then he would have made a huge business profit, as he sold his team by a very high price to BMW once and now gets it back for nothing. :D

Here was a question or hope, whether BMW will at least keep their engines in F1. I'm highly doutbful. Honda withdrew together with engines. BMW may sell the chassis-factory, but I suspect the engines are a bit more "personal" thing and the manufacturer will take these with themselves. Hence the fear that if Toyota, Renault, or even Mercedes leave, their customer team may be left without supply, which hasn't been the case with neither Honda nor BMW. Formula Cosworth soon?

The costs have risen too high and this is detrimental even for manufacturers. In the 90's there were constant rumours about numerous manufacturers, who could join F1, but since 2002 no carmaker has really seriously considered entering F1 (except Spyker joined for a brief moment), which means F1 has become too expensive for them too. But people here keep saying that only manufacturers are in trouble and could leave at any time with privateers filling their slots - I would say everyone is in trouble and this is the key issue. Look at Brawn - if even the championship leader hasn't managed to get decent sponsors onboard, then what kind of hope do others have?



--but the idea that open wheel racing sells cars has always been questionable to me. Sports cars, drag cars, I can see it whole heartedly, but F1? Questionable at best which is more or less what BMW just said. It would be nice to see them remain as an engine manufacturer, however someone will fill the void. if Peter Sauber will steb back in, I thing the team will be fine.

It is often said that manufacturers should race in series with "real cars", not some weird open-wheelers, but I think the argument for manufacturers to participate in F1 is that it's just way more popular in the world. A director of a car company may analyze that what is the benefit of racing in for example WTCC, a series nobody cares about, while they could race in F1, which the whole world cares about despite not presenting "real cars". And in F1 they can really present and advertise the car company as a whole, the whole brand, while in touring/sportscar series just one marque is represented. From this point of view it's difficult to blame the choice of manufacturers. F1 can be beneficial for them - but not at high costs and in financial crisis, obviously.



But the takeovers like Sauber->BMW, Benetton->Renault, BAR->Honda, Stewart->Jaguar,were all about a manufacturer deciding that rather taking on the more honourable Toyota route of starting their own operation, it would be a more efficient investment to take over an existing stable team and infrastructure.

Weren't Benetton and BAR going to sell their team anyway, so someone had to buy? Luciano Benetton got fed up with lack of results and BAR had to sell due to tobacco ban.

[ioan]

All right, and I wonder if the numbers hold up. I don't have any special insight here, but how much could Petronas be paying? No other company with logos on the car, including Intel, is likely to be paying anything significant to the budget of the team. Is there any other information that you have?

ClarkFan

I don't have any detailed knowledge of their accounts or sponsorship contracts, but they have plenty of sponsors on their F1 teams site:

Petronas, Intel, T-Systems (from T-Mobile I think), FX Pro, Walter Meier, Wurth, Certina, Ansys Fluent, Puma and many others.

[ioan]

A huge blow to the reputation of Mario Theissen.

You got to be kidding.
There's a saying about how you are fail safe only if you don't try, and IMO those who try will one day be successful, and I have a feeling that Theissen ha already had plenty of success before this try.

[DexDexter]

You got to be kidding.
There's a saying about how you are fail safe only if you don't try, and IMO those who try will one day be successful, and I have a feeling that Theissen ha already had plenty of success before this try.

I don't think Theissen is at fault. They did very well in the last four years considering that they started as nothing more than a midfield team with mediocre facilities and technical staff. I don't get this failure stuff. IMO they didn't fail, the board just decided to stop F1 for reasons nothing to do with F1 itself or the success of BMW in F1.

[ioan]

I don't think Theissen is at fault. They did very well in the last four years considering that they started as nothing more than a midfield team with mediocre facilities and technical staff. I don't get this failure stuff. IMO they didn't fail, the board just decided to stop F1 for reasons nothing to do with F1 itself or the success of BMW in F1.

I agree with you and unlike others I believe that what they said today at the press conference was true.

[BDunnell]

I agree with you and unlike others I believe that what they said today at the press conference was true.

How can you agree with those comments when they say 'the board just decided to stop F1 for reasons nothing to do with F1 itself'? That wasn't what the press conference said at all.

[DexDexter]

How can you agree with those comments when they say 'the board just decided to stop F1 for reasons nothing to do with F1 itself'? That wasn't what the press conference said at all.

The press conference was full of that typical corporate stuff, new strategies etc. which don't mean a thing. IMO the bottom line is nobody is going to pull out of a seemingly succesful project due to bad results in 10 races if they've invested hundreds of millions of dollars into it.

[ioan]

How can you agree with those comments when they say 'the board just decided to stop F1 for reasons nothing to do with F1 itself'? That wasn't what the press conference said at all.

You are right, it has to do with things that F1 is lacking, which in turn means it has to do with F1.

[BDunnell]

There is even a suspicion that Max's "Nazi-background" hasn't boded well for German manufacturers plus ACEA's recent vocal opposition to Max hasn't obviously helped either.

The Nazi thing may have been mentioned in some media outlets today, but Mercedes don't exactly seem bothered by it, and it's not a massive issue in Germany from what I can make out. Plus, it's a bit late for BMW to display their outrage at it now!



A huge blow to the reputation of Mario Theissen.

Not sure about that. A lot of people in his position have had their motorsport ups and downs, and one has to wonder when he started to get the indications that BMW would be pulling out.



The costs have risen too high and this is detrimental even for manufacturers. In the 90's there were constant rumours about numerous manufacturers, who could join F1, but since 2002 no carmaker has really seriously considered entering F1 (except Spyker joined for a brief moment), which means F1 has become too expensive for them too. But people here keep saying that only manufacturers are in trouble and could leave at any time with privateers filling their slots - I would say everyone is in trouble and this is the key issue. Look at Brawn - if even the championship leader hasn't managed to get decent sponsors onboard, then what kind of hope do others have?

I certainly agree with you there. And I'd add that the image of F1 in these difficult financial times — an image not assisted by the open political shenanigans that, far from intriguing the public, bores it rigid — must be distinctly unhelpful in gaining sponsorship. This will continue, in my view, to be a problem once the recession is over. Will companies deem it socially responsible to invest in a series that makes so much play of its conspicuous wealth and its 'glamour', and which thus, in the eyes of many, 'doesn't need the money'? In those circumstances, I can imagine it being easier to make a business case for obtaining sponsorship backing for an obviously small but professional privateer team than a big manufacturer effort, though that may be misguided thinking on my part.



It is often said that manufacturers should race in series with "real cars", not some weird open-wheelers, but I think the argument for manufacturers to participate in F1 is that it's just way more popular in the world. A director of a car company may analyze that what is the benefit of racing in for example WTCC, a series nobody cares about, while they could race in F1, which the whole world cares about despite not presenting "real cars". And in F1 they can really present and advertise the car company as a whole, the whole brand, while in touring/sportscar series just one marque is represented. From this point of view it's difficult to blame the choice of manufacturers. F1 can be beneficial for them - but not at high costs and in financial crisis, obviously.

Again, I agree, though there have always tended to be phases of high and low manufacturer support in touring cars, sportscars and rallying. In two of those cases — touring cars and rallying — the FIA has been notably awful at dealing with issues of keeping costs under control and of taking a longer-term view of developments relating to technical regulations. Not a good situation when seeking manufacturer involvement either.

[Lemmy-Boy]

In the end, global economics and the corporate balance sheet will determine if a manufacturer will remain in F1. This is why a manufactured backed series (FOTA) series will never last. It only takes a bad quarterly report or a change in management for a global auto manufacturer to pullout from F1, thereby causing a negative domino effect. It happened in CART. And it recently happened in the IRL along with other racing series around the world.

BMW's withdrawal from F1 is boiled down to internal politics, the reshuffling of funds and financial forecasts for the coming years. After all, their main money driver is selling cars, not their F1 team. And BMW is doing pretty well compared to other competitors, especially during this harsh global recession.

I can't say the same for Renault & Toyota. And don't be surprised to see one of these teams (if not both) abandon their F1 programs by the end of this year.

The carnage continues...

[BDunnell]

The press conference was full of that typical corporate stuff, new strategies etc. which don't mean a thing. IMO the bottom line is nobody is going to pull out of a seemingly succesful project due to bad results in 10 races if they've invested hundreds of millions of dollars into it.

'Seemingly successful' when, though? There may have been a case for saying that BMW were on the verge of major success last year, or maybe, still, after Melbourne this year, but things haven't looked that way for a while now. Add in the recession and I think BMW's talk of its dislike for the new F1 rules should be forgotten about. If BMW was serious about that part, it should get real, for it is of no influence whatsoever that could have the slightest commercial effect — which is, after all, what any manufacturer involved in F1 is concerned about. This includes BMW, which seemed to manage for a long time without F1, and will do so again.

[DexDexter]

'Seemingly successful' when, though? There may have been a case for saying that BMW were on the verge of major success last year, or maybe, still, after Melbourne this year, but things haven't looked that way for a while now. Add in the recession and I think BMW's talk of its dislike for the new F1 rules should be forgotten about. If BMW was serious about that part, it should get real, for it is of no influence whatsoever that could have the slightest commercial effect — which is, after all, what any manufacturer involved in F1 is concerned about. This includes BMW, which seemed to manage for a long time without F1, and will do so again.

IMO BMW have been very succesful in the last 3 seasons before this season considering that they started as nothing more than a glorified Sauber team. Their trend has been upward all the time and that's my point. I think they didn't pull out because of lack of success but for other reasons. Honda had several years without success while BMW has had only about 10 races, I cannot believe that such a succesful company would end F1 involvement because of a difficult first half of one season.

[BDunnell]

IMO BMW have been very succesful in the last 3 seasons before this season considering that they started as nothing more than a glorified Sauber team. Their trend has been upward all the time and that's my point. I think they didn't pull out because of lack of success but for other reasons. Honda had several years without success while BMW has had only about 10 races, I cannot believe that such a succesful company would end F1 involvement because of a difficult first have of one season.

I know what you mean, but couple this awful season for them — during which their upward trend has clearly faltered — with the economic climate and I think you have a potent set of circumstances, both of which, the depth of the recession and the team's poor form, have become clear in fairly short order. And personally I don't think the comparison with Honda holds water, because different companies do very different things.

[DexDexter]

I know what you mean, but couple this awful season for them — during which their upward trend has clearly faltered — with the economic climate and I think you have a potent set of circumstances, both of which, the depth of the recession and the team's poor form, have become clear in fairly short order. And personally I don't think the comparison with Honda holds water, because different companies do very different things.

I'm sure there is truth in what you're saying. I'm starting to like Mercedes more and more, they seem to be the one car company (besides Ferrari) that is even somewhat loyal to F1, they didn't pull out due to the Stepney-gate for example. Pitty that their cars are just so expensive :) .

[woody2goody]

They said 'recent developments in motor sport caused them to quit'. I wonder if they've taken a look at the accidents of the last few weeks with Surtees and Massa, and said 'we don't want any part of this anymore'.

It would be a strange decision, but it's also strange that the announcement comes just after those events, with them making reference, albeit a vague one, to 'recent developments'.

[ioan]

They said 'recent developments in motor sport caused them to quit'. I wonder if they've taken a look at the accidents of the last few weeks with Surtees and Massa, and said 'we don't want any part of this anymore'.

It would be a strange decision, but it's also strange that the announcement comes just after those events, with them making reference, albeit a vague one, to 'recent developments'.

This is possible.
After Kubica's 2007 crash they probably now decided that having their name possibly associated with such a catastrophe isn't good for their image.

[DexDexter]

Theissen sure isn't a happy man:

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2009/07/922891

[BDunnell]

They said 'recent developments in motor sport caused them to quit'. I wonder if they've taken a look at the accidents of the last few weeks with Surtees and Massa, and said 'we don't want any part of this anymore'.

It would be a strange decision, but it's also strange that the announcement comes just after those events, with them making reference, albeit a vague one, to 'recent developments'.

I very, very much doubt that this even entered the minds of those responsible for the decision. If it did (which I'm very sure indeed it didn't) it would be absolutely absurd, for any team entering F1 ought to be acutely aware of the potential risks involved, no matter whether a high-profile accident has just occurred or not.

[seb_sh]

Theissen sure isn't a happy man:

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2009/07/922891

To be fair it's not a world's difference to what he usually looks like :p

He definitely won't get bored, there's the WSBK, WTCC and ALMS programmes to manage and I dare say BMW will look to Le Mans especially since the rules will allow a KERS system that sounds to be a lot closer to the technology in road cars which is important to BMW. Loss for F1 and win for Le Mans?

[veeten]

It looks more like BMW and Honda were heading down similar paths, for quite some time, that the ends for both were too coincidental...

http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2305

an interesting point...


As for the cost of competition: winning teams receive commensurate shares of the sport's revenue streams and are able to attract blue-chip sponsors and TV time; 'losers' do not. And while BMW can be immeasurably prouder of its results over the past four-odd years than can Honda, there is no denying that a dearth of results impacted on their respective returns on investment made in F1.

Simply put, BMW's bang for buck ratio in comparison to previous years was unacceptable to the board and shareholders: based on an estimate annual budget of $300m, each of the team's 135 points scored in 2008 cost $2.2m; this year, with eight points on the board and no major improvement in sight, the price spiralled to $37.5m! Imagine being a director and staring at those numbers...

and there's also this...


So to the present. In reaction to BMW's announcement, the FIA immediately put out a statement highlighting its efforts in reducing F1's costs. And, all due credit, the pressures the governing body brought to bear on teams individually, and FOTA as an organisation, are largely responsible for the massive savings recently made by F1 – and into the future – all of which makes BMW's departure just when the Resources Restriction Agreement was being readied for signature all the more ironic.

Cold comfort, indeed... :dozey:

[truefan72]

what a stunning development. but looking deeper into the story, you can see how BMW's downfall came about along with their reasoning for leaving.
We will miss them. It's just sad that both BMW and Honda don't/didn't realize that being a success in F1 takes commitment, through the lean years as well as the successful ones. Their total exit from the sport, along with engines,seems to me to be a shame.

I would have hoped to see them perform a partial exit as a team and remain involved with engine development or some ancillary capacity just to maintain a connection and perhaps some R&D benefits.

1. I strongly believe that the team will be bought and taken over by a competent group, perhaps lead by a leMans team or one of the big irl boys(penske?) willing to make the jump to F1 with a ready made team, state of the art wind tunnel and some solid sponsors who would carry over. Include Mercedes, Toyota, or Renault engines ( no cosworth please) and you have an instant midfield/top tier team.

2. Kubica should exercise some patience to see how things shakeout before making any commitments to any other team. Save a move to Ferrari, Renault or Mclaren, he should be best advised to wait how things shake out first. Given the fact that the new owners can focus 100% on the 2010 car, then the Brawn GP scenario of an instant race winner or contender might seem likely based on BMW's entire team competence.
Heidfeld's future is ore dubious and he would be best served to sign up and confirm a seat before he is left with none by seasons' end.

[grantb4]

Makes you wonder if the points $ payout is ideal. These teams should really get a fair percentage for just finishing a race. I think the competition is ingrained i the teams and their people whether it's paid out or not.

[Mark]

Although the manufacturers would like it to be the case basing your car purchase on Formula 1 is a crazy as it can get really. I speak as someone who owns a car manufactured by a company who hasn't been in F1 for many years, and hasn't won a championship for 15 years.

[Storm]

BMW had set them 3 years to win a title..is what they were saying on a website. If that is the case it is pretty stupid and unrealistic goal even though they did have a very competitive car in 2008. Unfortunately the rule changes made a mess of most things along with the evolution of that car. The Kers thing did not work out for them either but I am very surprised that they left F1 like a quitter (same with Honda) when it would have been amazing to see both teams win WDC/WCC titles before quitting the sport.

Not that this will mean a decline in any of their car sales or anything though!

[ShiftingGears]

Speaking as a marketer and consumer. I have been considering a BMW as my everyday driver. They're sleek, fast, fun to drive and comfortable. They are now xed off my list. Now all they have left is Rahal's tin tops and motorcycle powered formula cars. Can't see much development happening here. And I don't want to drive a car that makes my friends and associates ask "Didn't they USE TO BE IN F-1? Mercedes just took their place in my book.

Haha. That's pathetic.

[I am evil Homer]

BMW had set them 3 years to win a title..is what they were saying on a website. If that is the case it is pretty stupid and unrealistic goal even though they did have a very competitive car in 2008. Unfortunately the rule changes made a mess of most things along with the evolution of that car. The Kers thing did not work out for them either but I am very surprised that they left F1 like a quitter (same with Honda) when it would have been amazing to see both teams win WDC/WCC titles before quitting the sport.

Not that this will mean a decline in any of their car sales or anything though!

Exactly why they quit....if F1 has no effect on their day-to-day business of selling cars why pour hundreds of millions into it??!?!

[Storm]

there is something called pride - evil Homer...especially as you said after pouring millions wouldn't you want to quit on a high?

[veeten]

there is something called pride - evil Homer...especially as you said after pouring millions wouldn't you want to quit on a high?

but, then again, there's that old saying involving Pride, falls, and which usually goes first... :o ;)

[I am evil Homer]

there is something called pride - evil Homer...especially as you said after pouring millions wouldn't you want to quit on a high?

Of course, but maybe like Toyota they realised that reaching that "high" may not be so easy/never happen even in a period of uncapped budgets so decided to leave.

[Roamy]

Mario Theisen was a overrated POS - they failed plain and simple. BMW is unethical so why did you expect them to succeed in F1. They fu___d over Williams, JPM and JV and in the end got just what they deserved. I love it and hopefully and good person or company will buy all that crap and turn it into a winner.

Course I am a BIGOT - Brawn is one of the biggest cheaters ever and I am liking his entry into F1 (thought i would admit this before being called out) :p

[ratonmacias]

Mario Theisen was a overrated POS - they failed plain and simple. BMW is unethical so why did you expect them to succeed in F1. They fu___d over Williams, JPM and JV and in the end got just what they deserved. I love it and hopefully and good person or company will buy all that crap and turn it into a winner.

Course I am a BIGOT - Brawn is one of the biggest cheaters ever and I am liking his entry into F1 (thought i would admit this before being called out) :p

Thiessen tought he was better than williams guess what flanders SFW is still racing and kicking your ass this year. if only SFW would have JV instead of Kazuki.

[Roamy]

hey welcome back ratman! did you just recover from your honeymoon?? :p

[ratonmacias]

hey welcome back ratman! did you just recover from your honeymoon?? :p

i recovered quickly from the honeymoon but....we had twins in april 2008 and they are always moving all over the place chasing each other screaming playing with the dog and not letting dad sleep at night lol.

add that to the fact that im learning to play golf and that theres not really a driver i like right now on the grid and thats why i have been off the message board.

[Roamy]

yea i was a little sparse myself but now that we have one coming back that I hate there will be more fun on the forum.

[Hondo]

Although I'll agree the main factor is money along with a bad year so far, I can't help but think what may have really triggered BMW quitting so soon is the penalty Renault received. A one race ban. The Germans like regimentation and for things to be reliable and orderly. They like knowing the cost of any given infraction of the rules. Once again, the FIA has pulled a wild one out of their hat of surprizes with Renault's one race ban. It could just as easily have been a 100 million Euro fine. I think BMW is far more wary of the FIA than they care to discuss. I can see where a company like BMW would refuse to operate under the whimsical governance of the FIA.

Well, adios to a company that helped power a country into losing two world wars.

[William Hunt]

This is what I think: Nelson Piquet will buy the BMW Sauber entry and run it possibly together with Super Nova.

Super Nova Piquet Racing with Nelson Piquet Jr. as one of the drivers.
Watch my words: this could happen...

[ioan]

This is what I think: Nelson Piquet will buy the BMW Sauber entry and run it possibly together with Super Nova.

Super Nova Piquet Racing with Nelson Piquet Jr. as one of the drivers.
Watch my words: this could happen...

Yep, it's rumored that Piquet is looking to buy either BMW F1 or STR, I'd rather buy STR, but than again for the sake of F1 I hope he buys BMW.

[ClarkFan]

Yep, it's rumored that Piquet is looking to buy either BMW F1 or STR, I'd rather buy STR, but than again for the sake of F1 I hope he buys BMW.
For a would-be purchaser, both have pluses and minuses. STR has an engine supply and a guaranteed lead sponsor. The current chassis may be OK. However, STR also has guaranteed second tier status to at least one other team in the field.

BMW F1 presumably has no engine deal for 2010 and the 2009 chassis is slow. But with the right design and resources there is no automatic cap on the team.

Both offer the opportunity to burn large sums of money...... :p

ClarkFan

[ClarkFan]

there is something called pride - evil Homer...especially as you said after pouring millions wouldn't you want to quit on a high?
But isn't that one definition of insanity - doing the same thing and expecting different results?

:crazy:

ClarkFan

[seb_sh]

STR has an engine supply and a guaranteed lead sponsor. The current chassis may be OK. However, STR also has guaranteed second tier status to at least one other team in the field.
ClarkFan

Wouldn't someone buying STR mean no more Red Bull sponsorship? Also they won't be able to use RBR's chassis/aero parts and the team hasn't developed it's own car in years.

BMW Sauber on the other hand has one of the most advanced wind tunnels in F1 (or at least it was when BMW bought the team) and it has designed it's own cars, the last one may not be too good but the ones before it weren't bad.

It also depends on the buyer, someone who has the capability to design their own car would probably favor STR while an investor without any infrastructure would probably look to BMW as it's a more complete package.

[ioan]

Wouldn't someone buying STR mean no more Red Bull sponsorship? Also they won't be able to use RBR's chassis/aero parts and the team hasn't developed it's own car in years.

BMW Sauber on the other hand has one of the most advanced wind tunnels in F1 (or at least it was when BMW bought the team) and it has designed it's own cars, the last one may not be too good but the ones before it weren't bad.

It also depends on the buyer, someone who has the capability to design their own car would probably favor STR while an investor without any infrastructure would probably look to BMW as it's a more complete package.

Exactly! :up:

[ClarkFan]

Wouldn't someone buying STR mean no more Red Bull sponsorship? Also they won't be able to use RBR's chassis/aero parts and the team hasn't developed it's own car in years.

BMW Sauber on the other hand has one of the most advanced wind tunnels in F1 (or at least it was when BMW bought the team) and it has designed it's own cars, the last one may not be too good but the ones before it weren't bad.

It also depends on the buyer, someone who has the capability to design their own car would probably favor STR while an investor without any infrastructure would probably look to BMW as it's a more complete package.
So a Lola or Dallara would prefer STR, as it would be a cheaper way to buy two grid spots.

Seems a reasonable analysis, and another argument for opening up entries. The only way to "buy" a grid spot should be to design one of the 26 fastest cars.

ClarkFAn

[William Hunt]

Piquet could also buy the Renault team once that comes on the market but then I suspect Briatore will buy it.

In Brazil there were rumours that Piquet is setting up a new F1 team together with Super Nova and that it would replace one of the current outfits (most logically BMW Sauber)

[CNR]

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/279641,speculation-over-sauber-continuing-in-f1-without-bmw.html

Munich - There is speculation that Sauber team could continue in some guise despite the decision by BMW to pull out of Formula One at the end of the season. Team founder Peter Sauber admitted that the BMW-Sauber team will struggle to maintain a presence in F1 following BMW's move Wednesday but Mercedes motorsport director Norbert Haug pointed to the creation of Brawn GP following Honda's withdrawal late last year.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/226007-breaking-news-bmw-sauber-to-quit-formula-one-at-end-of-season

Sources indicate at this point that Peter Sauber will go into negotiations today with the BMW board to buy back the share of his former team that the sold in late 2005, but only if he can use the current BMW equipment.

[BDunnell]

Although I'll agree the main factor is money along with a bad year so far, I can't help but think what may have really triggered BMW quitting so soon is the penalty Renault received. A one race ban. The Germans like regimentation and for things to be reliable and orderly. They like knowing the cost of any given infraction of the rules. Once again, the FIA has pulled a wild one out of their hat of surprizes with Renault's one race ban. It could just as easily have been a 100 million Euro fine. I think BMW is far more wary of the FIA than they care to discuss. I can see where a company like BMW would refuse to operate under the whimsical governance of the FIA.

Again, I think this 'theory' is far-fetched in the extreme. Given the generalisation made here about the Germans and their love of regimentation, how are the Germans that run Mercedes somehow massively different to those who run BMW?

[BDunnell]

BMW Sauber on the other hand has one of the most advanced wind tunnels in F1 (or at least it was when BMW bought the team) and it has designed it's own cars, the last one may not be too good but the ones before it weren't bad.

A wind tunnel that will surely not only be of interest to F1 teams.

[Saint Devote]

Mario Theisen was a overrated POS - they failed plain and simple. BMW is unethical so why did you expect them to succeed in F1. They fu___d over Williams, JPM and JV and in the end got just what they deserved. I love it and hopefully and good person or company will buy all that crap and turn it into a winner.

Course I am a BIGOT - Brawn is one of the biggest cheaters ever and I am liking his entry into F1 (thought i would admit this before being called out) :p

Clearly you know nothing about Dr. Theissen - or how to spell his name - but he is held in high regard by all in F1.

Further, your knowledge how a corporation such as BMW conducts business plans is similarly absent.

But I do agree with the negative low description of yourself - and why do you use such dirty language - are you uneducated?

[Mekola]

I won't see any problems Piquet Sports taking over the BMW team, most considering the excellent relation the Brazilian ex-driver and entrepeneur has with the Bavarian firm.

[Roamy]

Clearly you know nothing about Dr. Theissen - or how to spell his name - but he is held in high regard by all in F1.

Further, your knowledge how a corporation such as BMW conducts business plans is similarly absent.

But I do agree with the negative low description of yourself - and why do you use such dirty language - are you uneducated?

I am a true multitasker - sometimes I am driving a truck and sometimes I am in a corporate board room. Sometimes language seals the point. However Mr. Scholar again we are talking opinions. But facts are as they are. BMW gave JPM a less that professional deal while favoring Ralf. BMW threw JV out of the seat without any class what so ever. Now you may be a fan of Dr. Theissen but obviously I am not. I have seen how they have conducted their racing business and of course over here we have their products and manufacturing. I tend to believe this is more professional than their F1 program.

Yes I am pleased that their effort has failed. I think it represented the integrity of the principals. They may have had to leave even if they were on top due to the business. But they were not on top and I am good with that. I am in hope that the team will be taken over by someone who will be able to utilized the tremendous assets they started with and provide a highly professional environment where people honor commitments and contracts.

[ioan]

Clearly you know nothing about Dr. Theissen - or how to spell his name - but he is held in high regard by all in F1.

Not only fousto doesn't know anything about F1 in general, but if you look close you'll see 99% of his posts are negative drivel. He just takes pleasure coming here and b!tching about people he hates.

[Roamy]

Not only fousto doesn't know anything about F1 in general, but if you look close you'll see 99% of his posts are negative drivel. He just takes pleasure coming here and b!tching about people he hates.

And I don't understand why some little twit would be coming on here to talk about me in a bad light. What you need to do is to pay attention to the facts that are being discussed - voice your opinion which will be incorrect in most cases and that is why we have a forum. Then go to mass and say 10 hail mary's for saying bad things about me. God would not approve of your post!!

[BDunnell]

Not only fousto doesn't know anything about F1 in general, but if you look close you'll see 99% of his posts are negative drivel. He just takes pleasure coming here and b!tching about people he hates.

Which, on superficial examination, seems to be anyone who doesn't carry a gun and live in a state of constant paranoia.

How anyone can describe themselves as a motorsport enthusiast and be glad that a team has quit a series I don't understand.

[ioan]

Which, on superficial examination, seems to be anyone who doesn't carry a gun and live in a state of constant paranoia.

How anyone can describe themselves as a motorsport enthusiast and be glad that a team has quit a series I don't understand.

He just hates BMW and Mario Theissen because they dared to send JV packing.
In fact JV is his only link to F1.
He hates MS because of JV.
He hates Theissen because of JV.
He hates BMW because of JV.
He hates Richards because of JV.

Looks to me as a pretty clear cut situation, fousto is a hate driven person, as far as F1 is concerned.

[Roamy]

Which, on superficial examination, seems to be anyone who doesn't carry a gun and live in a state of constant paranoia.

How anyone can describe themselves as a motorsport enthusiast and be glad that a team has quit a series I don't understand.

Couple of things - I normally don't carry a gun

secondly it comes down to our perception of integrity and class. I think DOCTOR Theissen sp lacks what I think (Opinion - entitled) is a level that I feel acceptable for the stature of the organization he was entrusted with and failed.

No magic here just facts and my opinion which are what forums are about. My carrying a gun had nothing to do with BMW's success or failure. But seems to be a problem for you. Maybe counseling will help. The great Dr. failed all on his own with no influence from me. Well maybe he read this forum and somehow was affected by my collection of Voodoo dolls which I keep right next to my gun collection!!

[ioan]

secondly it comes down to our perception of integrity and class. I think DOCTOR Theissen sp lacks what I think (Opinion - entitled) is a level that I feel acceptable for the stature of the organization he was entrusted with and failed.


Looks like the cowboy believes he knows more about integrity than the BMW board!

[Nikki Katz]

According to Autosport there's been a new Concorde agreement signed by all the teams except BMW. So at least if BMW pull out and aren't replaced, this shouldn't now happen with any other teams.

[Roamy]

Looks like the cowboy believes he knows more about integrity than the BMW board!


and just why would that surprise you ?? Do they have some different way to put their pants on. Do you think corruption has not reached the highest levels throughout the world.

[scaliwag]

and just why would that surprise you ?? Do they have some different way to put their pants on. Do you think corruption has not reached the highest levels throughout the world.

Hey fousto keep taking the cactus juice, it obviously keeps the mind clear and the thought process intact, I'm with you all the way, corruption is endemic throughout the corporate world, and yes the dear Dr failed, and BMW failed F1 in the same way as Ford,and Honda did, and I suspect Renault and Toyota will do so in the near future.

As for your collection of guns may it forever increase in size and volume because your going to need them to defend the constitution from Obama's intent to subvert and nullify all the freedoms and liberties set out by the founding fathers.

All power to your elbow fousto, keep taking the juice and telling it like it is.

Regards scaliwag.

[Roamy]

Hey fousto keep taking the cactus juice, it obviously keeps the mind clear and the thought process intact, I'm with you all the way, corruption is endemic throughout the corporate world, and yes the dear Dr failed, and BMW failed F1 in the same way as Ford,and Honda did, and I suspect Renault and Toyota will do so in the near future.

As for your collection of guns may it forever increase in size and volume because your going to need them to defend the constitution from Obama's intent to subvert and nullify all the freedoms and liberties set out by the founding fathers.

All power to your elbow fousto, keep taking the juice and telling it like it is.

Regards scaliwag.

Gracias Amigo
Well at least Renault won so they won't be a failure !! Yea I hear you on Obama. I am thinking I better add a Glock 10MM and perhaps a Benelli Vinci 12 gauge

[ioan]

and just why would that surprise you ??

In fact it doesn't surprise me, it's exactly the BS I was expecting from you! :rotflmao:

[Roamy]

BS ?? I am speaking "Gospel"

[ratonmacias]

to all the thiessen defenders:

who made Bmw spend millions on a pos kers system when they vetoed the kers ban earlier this year?

who left bmw with faceless drivers to promote and gain sponsors?

who wasted last season to concentrate on 2009?

who didnt sign alonso when he was available?

who always carried on fu--ing around with driver contracts by always saying we wont define our drivers til october when its normal to settle everything in august or september?

Thiessen thought he and his boys were able to make cars so good it didnt matter who drove them. thats why he canned jv and brought in kubica.

and kept midfield i mean heidfield. tiessen made his bed and now he has to sleep in it

williams won races for bmw in 2001 2002 2003 and 2004 we can write off 2000 beacuase williams had one of the worst driver pairings in history button and schumacher jr and 2005 because bmw supplied a pos engine to williams as they were thinking about their new team for 2006. and to make matters worse their only win came when craneboy was in second and took out the iceman who was in first while daydreaming on the pitlane

then thiessen starts spending 3 times more to win a race between 2006 and 2009

[ioan]

to all the thiessen defenders:

who made Bmw spend millions on a pos kers system when they vetoed the kers ban earlier this year?

who left bmw with faceless drivers to promote and gain sponsors?

who wasted last season to concentrate on 2009?

who didnt sign alonso when he was available?

who always carried on fu--ing around with driver contracts by always saying we wont define our drivers til october when its normal to settle everything in august or september?

Thiessen thought he and his boys were able to make cars so good it didnt matter who drove them. thats why he canned jv and brought in kubica.

and kept midfield i mean heidfield. tiessen made his bed and now he has to sleep in it

williams won races for bmw in 2001 2002 2003 and 2004 we can write off 2000 beacuase williams had one of the worst driver pairings in history button and schumacher jr and 2005 because bmw supplied a pos engine to williams as they were thinking about their new team for 2006. and to make matters worse their only win came when craneboy was in second and took out the iceman who was in first while daydreaming on the pitlane

then thiessen starts spending 3 times more to win a race between 2006 and 2009

You ran out of medication and the pharmacy is closed on Sunday? :rolleyes:

[ratonmacias]

You ran out of medication and the pharmacy is closed on Sunday? :rolleyes:

what is a lie in what i wrote?

[Roamy]

to all the thiessen defenders:

who made Bmw spend millions on a pos kers system when they vetoed the kers ban earlier this year?

who left bmw with faceless drivers to promote and gain sponsors?

who wasted last season to concentrate on 2009?

who didnt sign alonso when he was available?

who always carried on fu--ing around with driver contracts by always saying we wont define our drivers til october when its normal to settle everything in august or september?

Thiessen thought he and his boys were able to make cars so good it didnt matter who drove them. thats why he canned jv and brought in kubica.

and kept midfield i mean heidfield. tiessen made his bed and now he has to sleep in it

williams won races for bmw in 2001 2002 2003 and 2004 we can write off 2000 beacuase williams had one of the worst driver pairings in history button and schumacher jr and 2005 because bmw supplied a pos engine to williams as they were thinking about their new team for 2006. and to make matters worse their only win came when craneboy was in second and took out the iceman who was in first while daydreaming on the pitlane

then thiessen starts spending 3 times more to win a race between 2006 and 2009

:up: :up: :up:

[ioan]

what is a lie in what i wrote?

Most of it is BS, like 99.99%!

[woody2goody]

Kubica must be fuming. They threw away his title opportunity last year just because of company targets. Oh well, now they're going. Serves them right.

[Cooper_S]

As A BMW fan I am disappointed at the withdrawal but have plenty of other chanced to watch my team race...

As for Kubica fuming and being shafted, thank you for reminding me that every cloud has a silver lining

[Garry Walker]

Looks like the cowboy believes he knows more about integrity than the BMW board!

I dont agree with Foustos views on BMW, but what you said is quite absurd.
Just because someone is a cowboy, a cleaning lady or homeless does not mean they know less about integrity than the BMW board directors.
I am quite surprised you said such a thing, even if it was just to wind up Fousto.


All in all, BMW have behaved like idiots. They had an opportunity last year to go for the title, but they decided to concentrate on helping Slowfeld and develop for 2009. They also vetoed the ban on KERS.
Well, it sure paid off now and I cant say I feel too much sadness about it, although I am not happy about it either. Leaves me quite cold.

[gloomyDAY]

Damn. What a crap situation!
I just hope Piquet buys the team, gets rid of Heidi, and retains Kubica.


Leaves me quite cold.Awwww. Do you need a man hug to keep you warm? :p

[Garry Walker]

Awwww. Do you need a man hug to keep you warm? :p

Only if the man is ioan :p

[ioan]

Only if the man is ioan :p

God forbid. :s

[Garry Walker]

God forbid. :s

I am really laughing loudly at your reaction for some reason.

[truefan72]

Most of it is BS, like 99.99%!

classic response

unfortunately you can't chalk that up to BS with a little thing like facts getting in the way.

I am not sure what part of his assertions are false or not factual and would rather see you counterpoint with your own facts than being dismissive in the light of facts. At some point realty hits even the most ardent of believers Ioan and BMW/Thiessen are reaping what they sow.

I hope that the team stays in F1 as I generally don't like to see teams leave F1, but never has a team with such potential found a a way to squander it that dramatically. Kubica had a fighting shot for the title in 2008 and they blew it. Alonso could have been their driver and they blew it. the 2009 car is a dud, an embarrassment really, and Thiessens' dubious business approach has cost the team dearly.

Now please provide some valid points in defense of BMW operational strategy over the past few years, or simply concede the points without lashing out incandescently.

[ratonmacias]

classic response

unfortunately you can't chalk that up to BS with a little thing like facts getting in the way.

I am not sure what part of his assertions are false or not factual and would rather see you counterpoint with your own facts than being dismissive in the light of facts. At some point realty hits even the most ardent of believers Ioan and BMW/Thiessen are reaping what they sow.

I hope that the team stays in F1 as I generally don't like to see teams leave F1, but never has a team with such potential found a a way to squander it that dramatically. Kubica had a fighting shot for the title in 2008 and they blew it. Alonso could have been their driver and they blew it. the 2009 car is a dud, an embarrassment really, and Thiessens' dubious business approach has cost the team dearly.

Now please provide some valid points in defense of BMW operational strategy over the past few years, or simply concede the points without lashing out incandescently.

its ioan what do you expect?

[Roamy]

I think the team has to much in assets and technology to be dismantled. BMW is probably a much better buy than Honda was. Hell I just don't mind who buys it as long as someone buys it. I think that will happen.

Thiessen screwed the team and is a failure - So is Enron, Citicorp etc the list can go on and on. Through all the BS day in and day out Ferrari and Williams are there. Luca ain't quite the old "Man" but he sure as hell ain't no Thiessen.

[ioan]

classic response

unfortunately you can't chalk that up to BS with a little thing like facts getting in the way.

Sure I can, and sure I will continue to expose all the hate driven BS you and others post.
What you call 'facts' are only BS to me.

[scaliwag]

Thats rediculous. Ferrari is an Auto Manufacturer. You mean Ferrari should not compete in F1 then :crazy:

555-04Q2
That is what I wrote and that is what I meant.

The poisoned dwarf enticed Ferrari into his circus by allowing them a veto on certain aspects of F1, in other words gave them an advantage over the other teams, then along come the motor manufacturers and start spending money like compulsive gamblers at the roulette tables, and thereby forcing out most of the privateers, who couldn't sustain that level of spending to compete.

The dwarf and his side kick saw that as an excuse to make even more money, while at the same time limiting the scope for engineering excellence by standardizing everything that made F1 unique, so between the two of them, the manufacturers, and tweedledum and tweedledumer they are ruining a unique racing series, I rest my case.
Regards scaliwag.

[ratonmacias]

Sure I can, and sure I will continue to expose all the hate driven BS you and others post.
What you call 'facts' are only BS to me.

i dont hate thiessen or bmw i just hate the way they carried on.

just to make it clear to you i will post it slowly thiessen fuc-ked up more than once.

why isnt vettel driving a beemer after bmw paid for all his bills before f1? is heidfield better than vettel?

why didnt thiessen aim for a top dog not only as a driver but as public figure for his team during summer 2007 to drive the 2008 car? when is the last time a bmw sponsor could market one of their drivers?

whose fault is it that a snail is faster than this years car after they crapped the 2008 season to concentrate on the 2009 car?

are these facts or BS as your narrow mind implies?

[Cooper_S]

why isnt vettel driving a beemer after bmw paid for all his bills before f1? is heidfield better than vettel?



Ahh I get it you don't have a chip on your shoulder about Dr. Mario and BMW, it is vclear your problem is a complete lack of knowledge about F1 and it's going's on...

example: Vettel may have raced in formula BMW, that did not mean Vettel was under contract to BMW, he is and always was under contract to RBR, they graciously loaned him to BMW as 3rd driver and when he unexpectedly had to debut for injured Kubica showed his potential and RBR snapped the lead back ASAP...

It is one thing to debate with informed posters but your lack of knowledge make your input worthless.. Off you go now and play on your Xbox.

[ioan]

Ahh I get it you don't have a chip on your shoulder about Dr. Mario and BMW, it is vclear your problem is a complete lack of knowledge about F1 and it's going's on...

example: Vettel may have raced in formula BMW, that did not mean Vettel was under contract to BMW, he is and always was under contract to RBR, they graciously loaned him to BMW as 3rd driver and when he unexpectedly had to debut for injured Kubica showed his potential and RBR snapped the lead back ASAP...

It is one thing to debate with informed posters but your lack of knowledge make your input worthless.. Off you go now and play on your Xbox.

Thanks for putting the record straight and saving me time in dealing with our uninformed forumer! ;)

[Roamy]

Sure I can, and sure I will continue to expose all the hate driven BS you and others post.
What you call 'facts' are only BS to me.

This is basically your problem as well and most MS and BMW fans.
The truth in nowhere in the realm of your beliefs.

[ioan]

This is basically your problem as well and most MS and BMW fans.
The truth in nowhere in the realm of your beliefs.

I'm not a BMW fan fousto, I just can't stand factually incorrect rants. If raton was right I would agree with him, but as proven by Cooper_S above raton is just yelling around without taking his time to understand what happens.

And where exactly was raton hiding all this time and why did he return only now? Is it because he can continue his interminable and factually wrong rants about MS and BMW?

From his posts it's obvious that his only liaison with F1 is his hate towards MS and BMW!

This is basically your problem as well and most MS and BMW fans.
The truth in nowhere in the realm of your beliefs.

Says the king of bullshyte and slander.

[ratonmacias]

Ahh I get it you don't have a chip on your shoulder about Dr. Mario and BMW, it is vclear your problem is a complete lack of knowledge about F1 and it's going's on...

example: Vettel may have raced in formula BMW, that did not mean Vettel was under contract to BMW, he is and always was under contract to RBR, they graciously loaned him to BMW as 3rd driver and when he unexpectedly had to debut for injured Kubica showed his potential and RBR snapped the lead back ASAP...

It is one thing to debate with informed posters but your lack of knowledge make your input worthless.. Off you go now and play on your Xbox.

so how could thsid be?

from wikipedia after searching sebastien vettel

"Vettel became BMW Sauber's third driver at the 2006 Turkish Grand Prix, when former incumbent Robert Kubica was called up to replace Jacques Villeneuve for the 2006 Hungarian Grand Prix.

Vettel impressed on his testing debut by setting fastest time in second Friday Free Practice before the race.[7] The young German also impressed on his second testing session in the 2006 Italian Grand Prix, setting the fastest time in both Friday practice sessions, a race weekend in which all the BMW cars were quick, with his predecessor Robert Kubica finishing on the podium in the race.

He was confirmed as BMW's test driver for 2007,[8] and also competed in the World Series by Renault Championship, where he had his first win at the Nürburgring. He was leading the championship when he was called up to F1 permanently, and his seat was taken by Michael Ammermüller.[9]

[edit] Formula One
Vettel made his Formula One debut at the 2007 United States Grand Prix, driving for BMW Sauber.

[edit] 2007: BMW Sauber

Following the serious crash of regular BMW driver Robert Kubica at the Canadian Grand Prix, Vettel substituted for him at the US Grand Prix and started in seventh position on the grid,[10] finishing in eighth position, thanks to Nico Rosberg's late retirement, to take his first F1 World Championship point and became the youngest driver ever to score a point in Formula One (at the age of 19 years and 349 days), a record previously held by Jenson Button – who was 20 years and 67 days old when he finished sixth at the 2000 Brazilian Grand Prix.[11]

[edit] 2007-2008: Toro Rosso

[edit] 2007

On July 31, 2007, BMW released Vettel to join Red Bull's Scuderia Toro Rosso team, replacing Scott Speed as race driver as of the Hungarian Grand Prix.[12] He earned approximately $165, 000 for finishing the season with Toro Rosso.[13] Before the race, it was also announced that Vettel would drive for STR in 2008.[14] His team-mate would be Sébastien Bourdais.[

so if you know so much about formula 1 why did you say red bull only loaned vettel for indy if he was a third driver for bmw as far back as 2006?

why does it say "On July 31, 2007, BMW released Vettel to join Red Bull's Scuderia Toro Rosso" ? how do you release a professional who doesnt have a contract with you?

and still f1 encyclopedia theres more points in my post than only vettel.

[ratonmacias]

I'm not a BMW fan fousto, I just can't stand factually incorrect rants. If raton was right I would agree with him, but as proven by Cooper_S above raton is just yelling around without taking his time to understand what happens.

And where exactly was raton hiding all this time and why did he return only now? Is it because he can continue his interminable and factually wrong rants about MS and BMW?

From his posts it's obvious that his only liaison with F1 is his hate towards MS and BMW!

wrong i havent even talked about schumacher in ages and havent posted anything about schumachers return. so wrong. what did the russians put in the water on those former iron curtain countries that the women are so hot and the guys so dumb?

and by the way i was out of the forums because i was working my ass off to support my wife and twins, learning to play golf and riding dirt bikes and mountain bikes. now that im not as busy im back.

[gloomyDAY]

what did the russians put in the water on those former iron curtain countries that the women are so hot and the guys so dumb? :rotflmao:

I'm off to Eastern Europe!

[ratonmacias]

so how did red bull loan vettel? from what i read it was obvious vettel had a contract with bmw

link

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32285

[seb_sh]

AFAIK Vettel had a contract with Red Bull but they allowed Vettel to sign with BMW as a test driver to gain experience in F1. (they each "owned" 50% of him if you will) After Vettel raced to replace the injured Kubica and did well, RB recalled him as they were replacing their STR lineup. BMW did not offer him a race drive for that year so either they let him go as fair-play or (more likely) Vettel's contract with BMW had a release clause in case he got a race drive.

This may not be totally accurate or it could even be complete BS but that's what I remember hearing about the situation at the time. If its BS I apologise :P

[Saint Devote]

555-04Q2
That is what I wrote and that is what I meant.

The poisoned dwarf enticed Ferrari into his circus by allowing them a veto on certain aspects of F1, in other words gave them an advantage over the other teams, then along come the motor manufacturers and start spending money like compulsive gamblers at the roulette tables, and thereby forcing out most of the privateers, who couldn't sustain that level of spending to compete.

The dwarf and his side kick saw that as an excuse to make even more money, while at the same time limiting the scope for engineering excellence by standardizing everything that made F1 unique, so between the two of them, the manufacturers, and tweedledum and tweedledumer they are ruining a unique racing series, I rest my case.
Regards scaliwag.

Are you very new to motor racing?
Otherwise there is no explanation for the pretty ignorant way you attack the people that not only manage and govern f1, but actually created it in its form and besides making many currently in f1 extremely wealthy also won championships and were fundamental to the sport in the 70's and 80's.

[DexDexter]

Are you very new to motor racing?
Otherwise there is no explanation for the pretty ignorant way you attack the people that not only manage and govern f1, but actually created it in its form and besides making many currently in f1 extremely wealthy also won championships and were fundamental to the sport in the 70's and 80's.

True, without Bernie F1 would not probably exist, not at least in its current form. Bernie's done some questionable things lately but the thing these Bernie-haters seem to have only one agenda, Bernie's greed for money. Isn't a profitable business the idea? Bernie owned the thing, so why shouldn't he capitalise on it, I mean everyone would.

[Tumbo]

so how could thsid be?

from wikipedia after searching sebastien vettel

i think you'll find the majority of us stop reading at this point

[scaliwag]

Are you very new to motor racing?
Otherwise there is no explanation for the pretty ignorant way you attack the people that not only manage and govern f1, but actually created it in its form and besides making many currently in f1 extremely wealthy also won championships and were fundamental to the sport in the 70's and 80's.

Ok I have every right to my opinion, as for being new to motor racing I have watched Stirling Moss, Mike hawthorn and Jim Clark race in F1, I saw the first post WW11 rear engine Cooper-Climax take the track at Monaco in 1950.

I was a member of the automobile club de l'Quest Le Mans for over twenty years, I have watched motor sport on three continents.

As for your accusation of me being ignorant that is the usual attack of someone unable or unwilling to research a subject, attacking the messenger is not an argument.

[ioan]

I saw the first post WW11...

Hopefully we'll never get that.


I was a member of the automobile club de l'Quest Le Mans for over twenty years...

Never heard about this club. :D

[Dave B]

Bloody hell, I'll be happy when the schools go back, it's like a kindergarten in here recently. :erm:

[ratonmacias]

Hopefully we'll never get that.



Never heard about this club. :D

well ioan how are you going to back up your claim that i only post to hate schumacher? im still waiting...theres a post history you know?

what are you going to do to refute the sources i posted?

if mario thiessen is so good how come the team is gone for 2010 and they are only eighth in the satndings with less than 4% of the points the leading team has?

he hasnt had a shortage of resources like other teams and their facilities are top notch (cfd computers and wind tunnel) maybe he should have tried to keep jorg zander.

[I am evil Homer]

Thiessen's done well enough in Touring Cars....but like Toyota I think BMW have relaised throwing money at it doesn't equal results.

[Roamy]

Ok I have every right to my opinion, as for being new to motor racing I have watched Stirling Moss, Mike hawthorn and Jim Clark race in F1, I saw the first post WW11 rear engine Cooper-Climax take the track at Monaco in 1950.

I was a member of the automobile club de l'Quest Le Mans for over twenty years, I have watched motor sport on three continents.

As for your accusation of me being ignorant that is the usual attack of someone unable or unwilling to research a subject, attacking the messenger is not an argument.

:up: :up: :up:

[Knock-on]

Bloody hell, I'll be happy when the schools go back, it's like a kindergarten in here recently. :erm:

You don't say ;)

BeansBeansBeans summed it up perfectly when he said this place was great but to let him know when they do one for adults :D

[ClarkFan]

True, without Bernie F1 would not probably exist, not at least in its current form. Bernie's done some questionable things lately but the thing these Bernie-haters seem to have only one agenda, Bernie's greed for money. Isn't a profitable business the idea? Bernie owned the thing, so why shouldn't he capitalise on it, I mean everyone would.
Bernie has had a major role, but he has mainly been an impresario, not one of the real design innovators or performers of motor racing. His major insight was the recognize that the F1 World Champoinship could be show business, and that putting on a good spectacle, complete with jet setters and other exotic hangers-on, was paramount.

He also realized the importance of television in an international racing series, as it allowed European-based fans (the main audience for F1) to "pay" through viewership for races held on other continents and in other countries. This allowed him to be paid twice for each race, once from the promoter/track and once by television. While Ecclestone shares a portion of this revenue with the teams, he is left without the punishing capital and operating expenditures of maintaining race tracks, promoting races to draw spectators, and running a F1 team (he ditched that gig as soon as he saw where the real money was). He does not sow or reap, but still gains a major share of the crop.

The current problem is that Ecclestone has already cashed in, extracting in excess of 1 billion (pounds or euros, I forget which) from the series in the sale to banks, which has now moved to CVC. In doing so, he created another poster child for the credit crisis and excessive financial leverage - too much debt loaded on a company based on rosy assumptions about future operations. And that company has desperately been extracting money from promoters to service that debt. What the sport gets from that is races held to promote governments, rather than draw fans or provide exciting racing. The result is Tilke-dromes with empty stands in place of traditional grand prix venues, and car manufacturers brought in as participants for the "branding" value, rather than because any of the design work in F1 bears the slightest relationship to the engineering issues they face in their production vehicles.

And Bernie's new role is to pretend that all is well while the sport rots from within. :rolleyes:

ClarkFan

[ClarkFan]

Ok I have every right to my opinion, as for being new to motor racing I have watched Stirling Moss, Mike hawthorn and Jim Clark race in F1, I saw the first post WW11 rear engine Cooper-Climax take the track at Monaco in 1950.

I was a member of the automobile club de l'Quest Le Mans for over twenty years, I have watched motor sport on three continents.

As for your accusation of me being ignorant that is the usual attack of someone unable or unwilling to research a subject, attacking the messenger is not an argument.
Well, even if none of the kids envy your experiences, I certainly do. Most of my experiences have been long distance, with a few scattered F1 races watched in person over the years.

ClarkFan

I was a member of the automobile club de l'Quest Le Mans for over twenty years

Where is the Automobile Club de l'Quest?

I've heard of the Automobile Club de l'Ouest ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Club_de_l%27Ouest ).....and I would have thought that a member of that organisation would know how to spell it.

[PA Rick]

Where is the Automobile Club de l'Quest?

I've heard of the Automobile Club de l'Ouest ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Club_de_l%27Ouest ).....and I would have thought that a member of that organisation would know how to spell it.

What is your Quest?

[DexDexter]

Bernie has had a major role, but he has mainly been an impresario, not one of the real design innovators or performers of motor racing. His major insight was the recognize that the F1 World Champoinship could be show business, and that putting on a good spectacle, complete with jet setters and other exotic hangers-on, was paramount.

He also realized the importance of television in an international racing series, as it allowed European-based fans (the main audience for F1) to "pay" through viewership for races held on other continents and in other countries. This allowed him to be paid twice for each race, once from the promoter/track and once by television. While Ecclestone shares a portion of this revenue with the teams, he is left without the punishing capital and operating expenditures of maintaining race tracks, promoting races to draw spectators, and running a F1 team (he ditched that gig as soon as he saw where the real money was). He does not sow or reap, but still gains a major share of the crop.

The current problem is that Ecclestone has already cashed in, extracting in excess of 1 billion (pounds or euros, I forget which) from the series in the sale to banks, which has now moved to CVC. In doing so, he created another poster child for the credit crisis and excessive financial leverage - too much debt loaded on a company based on rosy assumptions about future operations. And that company has desperately been extracting money from promoters to service that debt. What the sport gets from that is races held to promote governments, rather than draw fans or provide exciting racing. The result is Tilke-dromes with empty stands in place of traditional grand prix venues, and car manufacturers brought in as participants for the "branding" value, rather than because any of the design work in F1 bears the slightest relationship to the engineering issues they face in their production vehicles.

And Bernie's new role is to pretend that all is well while the sport rots from within. :rolleyes:

ClarkFan

Good insight for newbies.

[scaliwag]

Bernie has had a major role, but he has mainly been an impresario, not one of the real design innovators or performers of motor racing. His major insight was the recognize that the F1 World Champoinship could be show business, and that putting on a good spectacle, complete with jet setters and other exotic hangers-on, was paramount.

He also realized the importance of television in an international racing series, as it allowed European-based fans (the main audience for F1) to "pay" through viewership for races held on other continents and in other countries. This allowed him to be paid twice for each race, once from the promoter/track and once by television. While Ecclestone shares a portion of this revenue with the teams, he is left without the punishing capital and operating expenditures of maintaining race tracks, promoting races to draw spectators, and running a F1 team (he ditched that gig as soon as he saw where the real money was). He does not sow or reap, but still gains a major share of the crop.

The current problem is that Ecclestone has already cashed in, extracting in excess of 1 billion (pounds or euros, I forget which) from the series in the sale to banks, which has now moved to CVC. In doing so, he created another poster child for the credit crisis and excessive financial leverage - too much debt loaded on a company based on rosy assumptions about future operations. And that company has desperately been extracting money from promoters to service that debt. What the sport gets from that is races held to promote governments, rather than draw fans or provide exciting racing. The result is Tilke-dromes with empty stands in place of traditional grand prix venues, and car manufacturers brought in as participants for the "branding" value, rather than because any of the design work in F1 bears the slightest relationship to the engineering issues they face in their production vehicles.

And Bernie's new role is to pretend that all is well while the sport rots from within. :rolleyes:

ClarkFan


Very well put if I may so, clear concise and accurate.

[scaliwag]

Well, even if none of the kids envy your experiences, I certainly do. Most of my experiences have been long distance, with a few scattered F1 races watched in person over the years.

ClarkFan

Thanks for that ClarkFan, yes I've been around a long time, seen some good things and unfortunately some very bad things, not been to Le Mans for several years, however in 2010 myself and what is left of the original group have decided to take our two campers and make week long pilgrimage to the home of twenty-four hour racing.

Regards scaliwag.