Meijer Indy 300 (Kentucky)

[DanicaFan]

12 of 17

Race - Meijer Indy 300

Location - Kentucky Speedway

Date - August 1st

TV Schedule - 8pm Eastern - Versus

Course Type - 1.5 Mile Oval

Distance - 200 Laps / 300 Miles

Qualifications - July 31st - 5:45 - 7:00 pm Eastern

2008 Pole Sitter - Scott Dixon

2008 Winner - Scott Dixon

[garyshell]

Who's going? Where's the "meet-up"? I just scored a couple of comps. And the track is about 30 minutes away.

Gary

[DanicaFan]

I am going to this race.

[Marbles]

So there going to have options available to them that could give them an additional 300 pounds of downforce if they so choose. Is it going to make a difference.

[DanicaFan]

So there going to have options available to them that could give them an additional 300 pounds of downforce if they so choose. Is it going to make a difference.

In theory it will give them the possibility of more lines to run on. I also think they need to change wing flap angles and such.

[drewdawg727]

Hopefully this race will be a step up from Richmond.

[TURN3]

In theory it will give them the possibility of more lines to run on. I also think they need to change wing flap angles and such.

What they need is a new version of the Hanford device. This provided some of the best racing ever known to open wheel. I don't know the reason for it going away but to me it seem like a simple short term solution.

[NickFalzone]

I think the Hanford device got taken away because it was deemed unsafe. Either Jon or Robbie Buhl commented on the 300 lbs as not being enough of a change, I guess we'll see. Kentucky generally provides OK racing anyway, so this slight improvement should make for a decent race. DF is right that they're now allowing work on a couple areas of the car. Not the rear wickers though.

[TURN3]

I think the Hanford device got taken away because it was deemed unsafe. Either Jon or Robbie Buhl commented on the 300 lbs as not being enough of a change, I guess we'll see. Kentucky generally provides OK racing anyway, so this slight improvement should make for a decent race. DF is right that they're now allowing work on a couple areas of the car. Not the rear wickers though.

Maybe the HD was deemed unsafe, I don't know. I don't remember hearing anything about it, sort of just disappeared. I don't think there was anything unsafe about the device itself. Maybe the fact CART cars were doing 240MPH avg speeds and upwards of 250MPH in the draft (that was crazy stuff at MIS and Fontana back in the day!). These cars don't go anywhere near that fast, maybe 210's or 220's on their fastest 2 or 3 tracks now?

Whatever they do, they'd better do it. That's all I care about.

[FormerFF]

No entry list yet?

[PA Rick]

What they need is a new version of the Hanford device.

They need to bulldoze the banking.

[DanicaFan]

We have 23 cars entered in this race. Here is the entry list..

Car# & Driver / Car Name / Team

#2 Raphael Matos / US Air Force Luczo Dragon Racing / Luczo Dragon Racing
#3 Helio Castroneves / Team Penske / Team Penske
#4 Dan Wheldon / National Guard Panther Racing / Panther Racing
#5 Mario Moraes / Azul Tequila-Votorantim KVRT / KV Racing Technology
#6 Ryan Briscoe / Team Penske / Team Penske
#7 Danica Patrick / Boost Mobile-Motorola / Andretti Green Racing
#9 Scott Dixon / Target Chip Ganassi Racing / Target Chip Ganassi Racing
#10 Dario Franchitti / Target Chip Ganassi Racing / Target Chip Ganassi Racing
#11 Tony Kanaan / Team 7-Eleven / Andretti Green Racing
#12 Will Power / Penske Truck Rental / Penske Racing
#13 EJ Viso / PDVSA HVM Racing / HVM Racing
#14 Ryan Hunter-Reay / ABC Supply Co. AJ Foyt Racing / AJ Foyt Enterprises
#18 Justin Wilson / Z-Line Designs / Dale Coyne Racing
#20 Ed Carpenter / Menard's-Vision Racing / Vision Racing
#23 Milka Duno / Citgo-Dreyer & Reinbold Racing / Dreyer & Reinbold Racing
#24 Mike Conway / Dad's Root Beer-Dreyer & Reinbold Racing / Dreyer & Reinbold Racing
#26 Marco Andretti / Meijer / Andretti Green Racing
#27 Hideki Mutoh / Formula Dream / Andretti Green Racing
#43 Tomas Scheckter / Mona-Vie -Dreyer & Reinbold Racing / Dreyer & Reinbold Racing
#67 Sarah Fisher / Dollar General-Sarah Fisher Racing / Sarah Fisher Racing
#98 Jaques Lazier / Novicomm LED Lighting Technology / CURB-Agajanian-Team 3G
#02 Graham Rahal / McDonald's Racing Team / Newman-Haas-Lanigan Racing
#06 Robert Doornbos / Newman-Haas-Lanigan Racing / Newman-Haas-Lanigan Racing

[TURN3]

Ken,

Will DP qual in the top 10? Power is at this race so you've got 3 Penske's, 2 TCGR, Moraes quals well on these...she'll be at the back part of it but AGR should be able to squeeze 3 of their cars in around 7-11 (no pun intended TK).

BTW, I don't think the push to pass system is going to help much. What we seen in Champ Car is that most drivers use it as a defense mechinism. Of course if it gets late in the race and somebody uses up their allotment, it shakes things up. As long as it is the same for everybody, it'll produce the same results...based on this function being used in the past.

[Hoop-98]

Push to Pass or Block...

p2porb (http://www.indystar.com/article/20090728/SPORTS0107/90728048/1052/SPORTS01/IndyCar+Series+approves+push-to-pass+button)


rh

[SarahFan]

Ken,

Will DP qual in the top 10? Power is at this race so you've got 3 Penske's, 2 TCGR, Moraes quals well on these...she'll be at the back part of it but AGR should be able to squeeze 3 of their cars in around 7-11 (no pun intended TK).

BTW, I don't think the push to pass system is going to help much. What we seen in Champ Car is that most drivers use it as a defense mechinism. Of course if it gets late in the race and somebody uses up their allotment, it shakes things up. As long as it is the same for everybody, it'll produce the same results...based on this function being used in the past.



NHL have laid down some oval times this year also ...... So you need to factor them in also

I wouldn't bet even money on 10th ..... But give me some 5-1 pdds and I'll go $10 to $50 towards charity if you want

[Hoop-98]

Kentucky Track Calculations:

http://i32.tinypic.com/wv3gah.jpg

the real df is much higher.
rh

[PA Rick]

Kentucky Track Calculations:

http://i32.tinypic.com/wv3gah.jpg

the real df is much higher.
rh

So in theory, if the stuckness is positive (it is +73 at Kentucky), the drivers never have to lift? If it goes negative with old tires it may be interesting.
Is the coefficient of friction (1.5)for the tires with a new tire, a scuff, or an average?
Do you know the difference of static coefficient of friction to dynamic CofF on the tires. If they are far apart the car goes away fast, closer makes for a gradual drift.
I have wondered about the tires but there's not much data out there, and there are several different compounds.

[DanicaFan]

I will be leaving out around 5AM on Friday morning for Kentucky so I wont be around to post all the practice and qualification times. So, maybe someone can pick up my slack on that... ;)

Oh, and yes Danica will qualify in the top 10. She will go P1 this year and get her first pole this year. :)

[drewdawg727]

Goodness, can someone mute the DF recording that he plays every week...

[TURN3]

I will be leaving out around 5AM on Friday morning for Kentucky so I wont be around to post all the practice and qualification times. So, maybe someone can pick up my slack on that... ;)

Oh, and yes Danica will qualify in the top 10. She will go P1 this year and get her first pole this year. :)

Care to make a bet of some sort?

[gofastandwynn]

What they need is a new version of the Hanford device. This provided some of the best racing ever known to open wheel. I don't know the reason for it going away but to me it seem like a simple short term solution.

The Hanford device only worked at 2 tracks, Michigan and California, where the banking and arc of the turns meant you could take multiple lines through the turns and needed little aero grip to make the turn. When they took the Hanford to other tracks (Homestead, Milwaukee, Gateway) the racing was terrible.

[DanicaFan]

Care to make a bet of some sort?

What do you want to wager?

[TURN3]

The Hanford device only worked at 2 tracks, Michigan and California, where the banking and arc of the turns meant you could take multiple lines through the turns and needed little aero grip to make the turn. When they took the Hanford to other tracks (Homestead, Milwaukee, Gateway) the racing was terrible.

They only used the HD at MIS & Fontana at first. When they tried the experiment on the smaller tracks they had a smaller version of it that didn't have as large of an effect. Plus, they were still making them use speedway wings. The racing wasn't marvelous at those tracks like you mention but it wasn't because the HD didn't work. At any rate, it was much better than what we have here. I'm not saying the HD is the answer but if they're using the bandaid approach, it is one of those that doesn't stick & hurts when you pull it off.

[TURN3]

What do you want to wager?


Wow...I'm proud of you for acknowledging the offer!

Rough draft proposal: DP quals 8th or better and I have a 1 race ban from the forum. So from the time the Kenucky race ends Sat night until the next race ends (checker to checker flag at mid-ohio). She qualifies 9th or worse and you have the same ban...no posting for 2 weeks for the loser!

Bonus bet, since you claim she'll win this week. If DP finishes 3rd or better I'll lay off posting the obvious about her the rest of this season (opinions only, news and facts are fair game). If she doesn't finish at least third, you can't predict she'll win or be on the podium the rest of this year AND you have to retract your statement last week to the effect she's proved how talented she is on road courses so all talk to the contrary is "rubbish".

Now, we're on a speedway so going with the "big 3" concept that AGR still has the aero development to run fast here, there is no way she can't qualify at least eight. It really has absolutely nothing to do with skill here, the question is how many of her teammates outqualify her and do the NHL and KV cars get in the mix. I think this bet is way more than fair, in fact I'd say you have slightly better than 50 50 odds.

[Hoop-98]

So in theory, if the stuckness is positive (it is +73 at Kentucky), the drivers never have to lift? If it goes negative with old tires it may be interesting.
Is the coefficient of friction (1.5)for the tires with a new tire, a scuff, or an average?
Do you know the difference of static coefficient of friction to dynamic CofF on the tires. If they are far apart the car goes away fast, closer makes for a gradual drift.
I have wondered about the tires but there's not much data out there, and there are several different compounds.

There is no way of me knowing more than the general range of the tires, 1.4 - 1.7. Same with the downforce. Now when someone tells me one of the unknowns, which they do from time to time, I can get pretty close.

This is the "ballpark" for Kentucky, they run a Minimum Wing Angle which is likely quite a bit more downforce than I have listed. The only time DF comes into question is behind another car.

Now if you look at Texas, they could lap all day long WOT with no downforce. It is completely different than Kentucky, closer to Michigan and Fontana from a cornering perspective.

The Handford device was mainly a drag chute used to reign in the 850 HP and was downsized considerably for the last Fontana show due to power cuts..

At Texas you have to keep speeds down with drag or a power restricter.

rh

[drewdawg727]

Weather for the weekend looks to be good - Friday and Saturday both partly cloudy and mid-80s, maybe 70s by qualifying/race time.

[DanicaFan]

Weather for the weekend looks to be good - Friday and Saturday both partly cloudy and mid-80s, maybe 70s by qualifying/race time.

Nice. Im heading out around 5am for Kentucky.

[TURN3]

Nice. Im heading out around 5am for Kentucky.


So are we on or not?

[DanicaFan]

Well, everyone have a great weekend. Im finishing up packing and getting ready for bed. Up and early to head to the Kentucky Speedway tomorrow. :)

[TURN3]

Well I guess we see how big of a fan you really are...you haven't even bothered to decline the bet. Is that a sign of your confidence?

[beachgirl]

Well I guess we see how big of a fan you really are...you haven't even bothered to decline the bet. Is that a sign of your confidence?

Well, there's an old racing saying about some racers. I think it can be applied to DF now too. "All show, no go". When it comes down to putting the "money" where the mouth is, the mouth goes silent. Hmmmmm.

[DanicaFan]

Well I guess we see how big of a fan you really are...you haven't even bothered to decline the bet. Is that a sign of your confidence?

Been simpler for like a $10 dollar bet or something. ;)

[harvick#1]

damn, I was hoping for a quite, normal return to race weekend threads :laugh:

[DanicaFan]

damn, I was hoping for a quite, normal return to race weekend threads :laugh:

Well, dont worry, I wont be around this weekend, I'll be at the track watching my girl get her 2nd IndyCar win. :D

[TURN3]

Well, dont worry, I wont be around this weekend, I'll be at the track watching my girl get her 2nd IndyCar win. :D

Care to place a wager on that?

Wait, I sound like a broken record....what does that remind you of.

Look DF, it is a simple bet. With the confidence you seem to have, I can't believe it isn't that simple. One or the other of us has to shut up for 2 weeks? I'm willing to...why aren't you?

[harvick#1]

Care to place a wager on that?


thats like the old cliche "taking candy from a baby"

[NickFalzone]

What goes in Danica's favor is the change in aero rules as well as possibly the P2P. The reality is that AGR is not a top tier team this season, but they SHOULD be a top tier team this weekend as I suspect the rules changes will benefit the more old-school IRL teams that have more experience with the tools Barnhart is letting them use, and AGR probably has a lot of wind tunnel time that they can apply specifically to this race. Fuel strategies, rules changes, left-turns only, little to no lifting, these are the sorts of things that Danica can excel at. I agree that it would take a miracle for her to win this weekend, but all these factors at play could make that happen. DF's prediction is not as crazy this weekend at it has been most other races this season. I personally would not be hugely surprised if she got a podium, surprised yes, but I think it's possible.

[TURN3]

What goes in Danica's favor is the change in aero rules as well as possibly the P2P. The reality is that AGR is not a top tier team this season, but they SHOULD be a top tier team this weekend as I suspect the rules changes will benefit the more old-school IRL teams that have more experience with the tools Barnhart is letting them use, and AGR probably has a lot of wind tunnel time that they can apply specifically to this race. Fuel strategies, rules changes, left-turns only, little to no lifting, these are the sorts of things that Danica can excel at. I agree that it would take a miracle for her to win this weekend, but all these factors at play could make that happen. DF's prediction is not as crazy this weekend at it has been most other races this season. I personally would not be hugely surprised if she got a podium, surprised yes, but I think it's possible.

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Because of that, I thought I was more than fair on the offer I had made him. She really should (as well as all the AGR drivers) have a top 8 qualifying run. The race is basically a 5 car runaway barring any miracle strategies but like you said, anything can happen. We'll certainly see how the new rules effect passing.

[NickFalzone]

If AGR is qualifying most drivers outside of the top 10 again this weekend, they should hang their heads in shame, there's no reason that should be happening, particularly at this track. I expect TCG to lead the pack, but at least ONE AGR driver should get a top 5 this weekend or they're really in bad shape.

[drewdawg727]

My bet is Danica finishes one or both spots below the other two women.

[garyshell]

Has practice started yet? No video on the Indy Live website and no lonk for timing and scoring????

Gary

[TURN3]

Has practice started yet? No video on the Indy Live website and no lonk for timing and scoring????

Gary

According to KV Racing on Twitter, the track is still wet from rain.

[NickFalzone]

2-Day race weekend is a joke IMO, they should have had a practice Thurs night. So they've got weepers on the track now, qualifying in 3 1/2 hours, and no track time despite a bunch of aero changes to the cars this weekend. Bad idea.

[garyshell]

2-Day race weekend is a joke IMO, they should have had a practice Thurs night. So they've got weepers on the track now, qualifying in 3 1/2 hours, and no track time despite a bunch of aero changes to the cars this weekend. Bad idea.


It poured rain Thursday night here.

Gary

[garyshell]

The IndyCar.com site has nothing about the delays, but get this... the Indy500.com site does have info! To add insult to injury there is no timing and scoring link on IndyCar.com, yet there is one on the Indy500.com site. How STUPID is this? Who the hell goes to the Indy500.com site AFTER memorial day? Why would I think to? Why SHOULD I have to think to? This is ridiculous beyond words. BTW the ticker on the live scoring and timing says "Track activity is on hold while weepers in t3 and t4 are worked on."

Gary

[NickFalzone]

Haha, I actually go to the Indy500.com site regularly after races because that's where they put up all the best photos, including practice and qualifying days. I agree, it's a joke that Indy500.com has a ton of IndyCar "new" stuff where their primary site is lacking. Weird. Would you call that a management issue?

[garyshell]

Well FINALLY, the IndyCar.com frontpage says something about the delay and the weepers adding "Tentative time for start of practice is 3pm ET."

Gary

[garyshell]

We have VIDEO! And orchestral music to boot!

Gary

[jackmart]

Ok, some questions

1. It looks like there are times going across, did they start the practice and then stop it?

2. Can someone post qualifying order, pdfs don't work on this computer for me.

3. quals - It looks like its starts at 545 but vs. says 600 is there a mini pre-show or something or the broadcast miss some of quals?

Thanks

[garyshell]

Ok, some questions

1. It looks like there are times going across, did they start the practice and then stop it?

2. Can someone post qualifying order, pdfs don't work on this computer for me.

3. quals - It looks like its starts at 545 but vs. says 600 is there a mini pre-show or something or the broadcast miss some of quals?

Thanks

Look carefully at the names scrolling across. No they are still working on weepers in turn 4.

There is a live video feed up now via indycar.com, but all you see is the efforts to fix turn 4.

Gary

[jackmart]

ohh, is it last years race? I saw darren manning and got confused I thought maybe somehow he got a car togther but not hat I see Bruno it know it's not this season.

Anyone have any idea about quals? do we think they will take place?

[beachbum]

There is a live video feed up now via indycar.com, but all you see is the efforts to fix turn 4.

GaryConsidering they are mostly leaning on the brooms, I suspect qualifying will be canceled and practice moved to tomorrow.

Oh wait - they just brought out the oil dry. Yeah, that will work...........

[garyshell]

Considering they are mostly leaning on the brooms, I suspect qualifying will be canceled and practice moved to tomorrow.

Oh wait - they just brought out the oil dry. Yeah, that will work...........


I think the oil dry is to help dry the sealant they put in place to patch the weepers. The weather here is BEAUTIFUL today, but man did it POUR last night.

Gary

[chuck34]

That track SUCKS for weepers. I don't know why or the mechanism behind it, but that track just poors water, and poors water, and poors water. If it rained there yesterday, we'll be lucky to see a race tomorrow.

Been there, done that, it ain't fun to watch a track "dry" when it's been sunny for 2 days. :-(

[TURN3]

That track SUCKS for weepers. I don't know why or the mechanism behind it, but that track just poors water, and poors water, and poors water. If it rained there yesterday, we'll be lucky to see a race tomorrow.

Been there, done that, it ain't fun to watch a track "dry" when it's been sunny for 2 days. :-(

I've not been to the track in Kentucky but my first guess would be the track was built in an area where the water table is already high. When it rains, the water has nowhere to go. Trying to seal up the cracks so water can't come up is only going to make for more problems a day or 2 from now. Only way to fix it is to give the water a place to go and they don't have time for that in a 2 day weekend. Speculation on my part though without any knowledge of its location and particulars.

[garyshell]

Watching the video now, you can see that the weepers are on the banking and looking at the trees beyond, it appears that it should be above the water table. Kind of hard to tell for sure though.

Gary

[PA Rick]

When they bulldoze the banks flat they can put in drainage.

[chuck34]

I've not been to the track in Kentucky but my first guess would be the track was built in an area where the water table is already high. When it rains, the water has nowhere to go. Trying to seal up the cracks so water can't come up is only going to make for more problems a day or 2 from now. Only way to fix it is to give the water a place to go and they don't have time for that in a 2 day weekend. Speculation on my part though without any knowledge of its location and particulars.

I'm not sure it's below the water table. But I'm no hydrologist. And you are correct, when it rains the water has no where to go. This has been a known problem at this track for YEARS. I don't understand why no one has done anything about it yet.

[SarahFan]

I'm not sure it's below the water table. But I'm no hydrologist. And you are correct, when it rains the water has no where to go. This has been a known problem at this track for YEARS. I don't understand why no one has done anything about it yet.

$$$$$$$

[jackmart]

so do u think quals will be canceled at this point? does anyone remeber when they canceled them at iowa?

[beachbum]

so do u think quals will be canceled at this point? does anyone remeber when they canceled them at iowa?At the rate the "drying" appears to be going, I would surprised to see any cars on track today. Indycar has the video still up, and no one is working on the track and no cars are out on pit road. Maybe tomorrow..............

Whats worse than a boring race? One that doesn't happen at all.......

[jackmart]

they asked will power and he said he doesn't have an update but hopes to race. i just wish i knew bc i am supposed to go out tonight with fans and am waiting to watch this and then get ready, come on indycar, update please

[NickFalzone]

The Versus qualies show is on now, looks like they're just going to bs through it with interviews and discussing edmonton and the new rules changes.

[PA Rick]

I'm not sure it's below the water table. But I'm no hydrologist. And you are correct, when it rains the water has no where to go. This has been a known problem at this track for YEARS. I don't understand why no one has done anything about it yet.

Drill holes around the track (inside and outside) and pump out the water. Unless you never expect rain ever again.
I just saw someone pounding the track with a hammer. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

[NickFalzone]

Haha, Danica just went off on how ovals are better racing than road and street courses and she wishes there was more ovals on the schedule.

[beachbum]

they asked will power and he said he doesn't have an update but hopes to race. i just wish i knew bc i am supposed to go out tonight with fans and am waiting to watch this and then get ready, come on indycar, update pleaseNothing to watch - go out with your friends. The "weepers" seem to be growing

[PA Rick]

Unless I am not seeing the whole picture, I see them putting kitty litter down and scraping it with the back of the brooms. A person with a shopvac would do more to prepare the track. They need to run street cars around the track and vacuum up the worst weepers.

[TURN3]

Haha, Danica just went off on how ovals are better racing than road and street courses and she wishes there was more ovals on the schedule.

Are you kidding me? If I were a driver, and clearly I'm more of one that her, the last thing I'd be talking about is how I wish I could only drive on tracks that required no skill so I could take my money to the team that can wind tunnel me to the fastest car so I could stand a 1 in 8 chance of winning. Is she just stupid, or plain ass dumb?

[harvick#1]

last I saw, Road Course races actually produced racing in the IRL, the ovals are a 200 lap who can block the best race

[PA Rick]

Will there be any cars out tonight?

[NickFalzone]

I guess in Danica's mind, the courses that she does best on are the ones that are the most exciting for the fans. Nevermind that the road and street courses are the ones that had the best racing this season.

[NickFalzone]

Qualifying was cancelled, Dixon on "pole". I hope they AT LEAST get some practice in tomorrow:

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=14776

[grungex]

Haha, Danica just went off on how ovals are better racing than road and street courses and she wishes there was more ovals on the schedule.

Of course she does, she just qualified P5 without even getting in the car. :rolleyes:

[PA Rick]

Of course she does, she just qualified P5 without even getting in the car. :rolleyes:

What is that? a 12 or 13 spot improvement in only one week!

[NickFalzone]

Of course she does, she just qualified P5 without even getting in the car. :rolleyes:

You're right. Maybe she should get in the car less often and it would have better results?

[Easy Drifter]

I suppose it would make too much sense to IRL to use the Sat. practice as qualifying?
Now we will have several pretty fast combos starting near the back. Crash time anyone?
Just as stupid as USAC used to be and maybe still are.
Of course the 'taxi cabs' do the same thing.

[TURN3]

Perhaps you can explain how she was able to "qualify" fifth while 18 other drivers couldn't? Maybe it's because at this point in the season, and based on results so far, she is the 5th best driver in the series? Or do facts interfere with bashing her? :D

Are you being serious or just trying to keep it going? She's the "fifth BEST driver in the series"? I understand she's fifth in points but lets look at exactly how/why. First off, don't forget she is still with a team that puts her in a top 8 car on fast ovals at every race (although 5th-8th at this point). She has a teammate that IS one of the top 5 drivers in the series that has remarkable has a run of fires, fuel valve problems, and broken suspensions...gee how can soooo much go wrong with 1 team car and not the others? she hasn't made more than 10 "competitive" passes on track all year (and I'm being generous). Her finishes have been absolutely 100% based on attrition and a few strategy calls. Her best race (Indy) needed to see pit or equipment problems at the end for5 cars that ended up finishing (or not finishing) behind her.

So, if not being competitive and bringing the car home and driving around the track while the rest of the series actually races makes you the fifth BEST driver in the series, then I guess Will Power is 20th, Marco is 6th...etc.

Think about it, look who is behind her in the standings. Who behind her "shouldn't" she be in front of? Justin? Coyne doesn't stand a chance on ovals. Marco? Well Marco is right there with her (they are both equally inept in my opinion). Tk? See partial explanation above. Seriously. Rahal is the one behind her with the equipment that shouldn't be. Why is he back there? Because he RACES and has been competitive enough to get in the mix. When that happens, you know you're going to get taken out from time to time.

Name me more than 2 races all year she has performed to expectations based on her status and equipment from the first practice session through the race. She qualifies back of pack at road courses and prays, she qualifies back of top 10 on ovals...and prays. When she gets "fast" and competes, then you can start saying she is the "fifth" best driver in maybe Indy Lights.

[SarahFan]

Question for the class....not really important just curios..

I have never heard of Meijer....

is it pronounced 'Meyer' like the oscar weiners..... or 'Major' like a big earthquake

?


I ask becuase I always thought it was 'meyer'... not sure why..

but while checking in on XM radio yesterday for quals they kept pronouceing it 'major'

[TURN3]

Question for the class....not really important just curios..

I have never heard of Meijer....

is it pronounced 'Meyer' like the oscar weiners..... or 'Major' like a big earthquake

?


I ask becuase I always thought it was 'meyer'... not sure why..

but while checking in on XM radio yesterday for quals they kept pronouceing it 'major'

Yes, Meijer is a chain store throughout mostly the midwest. I haven't been to one in over 11 years since I moved from Indiana but I think I'd compare it to a Wal-Mart to give you an idea of what they are like. They've done some sponsoring and I think they were primary on Marco's car last year maybe (for a few races). They always seem to be built next to or near Menards stores so I don't know, maybe they're connected somehow.

I had some friends high in corporate and 3 years ago they all lost their jobs. I don't have the impression they are financially doing that well but who knows.

[grungex]

Perhaps you can explain how she was able to "qualify" fifth while 18 other drivers couldn't? Maybe it's because at this point in the season, and based on results so far, she is the 5th best driver in the series? Or do facts interfere with bashing her? :D


I think Turn3 covered it pretty well, but if you need more clarification feel free to ask. Furthermore, you should have taken my comment in the context of the post I replied to:

Danica just went off on how ovals are better racing than road and street courses and she wishes there was more ovals on the schedule.Danica is a fairly good driver, but she is a fairly poor racer. She is given a good oval car, and drives it home in one piece.


is it pronounced 'Meyer' like the oscar weiners.....

Yes.

[garyshell]

The track is still having issues with weepers. So not practice today from the looks of it. I just looked at the weather radar and there is a large line of rain from Chicago to St. Louis moving at a pretty good clip. If the line stays together, I would guess it would arrive at the track around around 8 or 9 pm. ...sigh... Now do I drive down and hope or stay home and watch. I have a couple of comp tickets so I am not out anything.

Gary

[NickFalzone]

I don't know if the IRL has decided yet, but my guess is that KY Speedway is going to want to put on the race tomorrow as it's supposed to be clear.

[TURN3]

Which part of "based on results" didn't do it for you? The only thing a racing driver can be judged on, over time, is results. No matter what anyone else may think there are 18 drivers in the series who have not done as well this year. That's not opinion or wishfull thinking, that is a fact. Spin all you want to but you can't change it. Danica, bless her little heart, is a competent race driver. Not championship material, at least in my opinion, but competent.

Wow. You're such an expert aren't you? I guess that makes lil Marco's blessed heart the 6th best driver in the IRL.

Ya, know. Anybody who objectively looks at what "racing" is would step up and say, yeah, she isn't fast, she isn't competitive, but she DOES bring the car home. Ok, fine that would be accurate. I would point out the obvious that when you're not competitive, and you're not occasionally over the edge, it means you either aren't capable or...you suck. So, in Danica's case...which is it?

You can argue all day long and you can't change the fact that aside from her fluke win in Japan (where she wasn't among the leaders all day and led the grand total of the last lap), she hasn't ever won anything in her career. Months ago, I believe the career stats were posted and she's nothing more than an amatuer wanna be that decided to market herself through sex appeal. Nothing wrong with that but to look at the entire body of work, she sucks...plain and simple. So I repeat what you seem oblivious to, when you drive around a track all day far behind the potential of the car and hope for people to crash, hope for a lucky yellow, and hope and pray that SOMETHING has to happen for you to get a good finish...you suck. When you are doing that while drivers in inferior budgeted teams are driving on the edge, trying to do what RACING is, ok.

So poor Will Power, poor Paul Tracy, poor Justin Wilson...if only they had the talent that lil Danica Panica has in her lil finger...maybe they would be 5th in a championship. Maybe if TK's car (her teammate) would quit exploding 50% of the races, maybe then he would be as good as Danica...with all the talent she has.

Just guessing here but...am I right?

Oh yeah...less we forget how her (along with 2 of her teammates) are so inept and incompetent that a might powerhouse team has fallen to the ranks of mediocrity. Oh, Danica has nothing to do with that...she's too talented, she's too good...she's the FIFTH best driver in the IRL, right?

[garyshell]

Perhaps you can explain how she was able to "qualify" fifth while 18 other drivers couldn't? Maybe it's because at this point in the season, and based on results so far, she is the 5th best driver in the series? Or do facts interfere with bashing her? :D


Wow. You're such an expert aren't you? I guess that makes lil Marco's blessed heart the 6th best driver in the IRL.

Based on results right now, yes he would be. Based on talent hell no. Talent and results are not the same thing. Clearly Starter said "based on talent" and just as clearly you are ignoring that and continuing to argue as if he had said "based on talent". Not sure why that is.

Gary

[mileman]

...she's the FIFTH best driver in the IRL, right?

It all depends if the standings mean anything at all. (I imagine that they do to the drivers and owners - and sponsers...) In simplistic terms, I believe that a driver who finished 3rd in every race to date could be leading the championship ahead of a driver who won six races and finished 20th in the rest. (If my math is wrong - you get the general idea.) Who's the "best?"

Anyway, I just enjoy seeing TURN3 get "IRL Forum rage." I don't think I've ever seen anyone with so much true hate for an athlete. (I take that back. A friend recently was wildly booing an overpaid and underperforming professional ballplayer at a charity event. He truly hates the guy and must have thought he was at the ballpark.)

Keep the entertainment coming!

PS: Here's a "horrible" thought. Danica decides not to pit at halfway for track position. It starts pouring, and she ends up holding that trophy for the win - just like Dixon did for "winning" the pole. My imagination is running away from me just thinking of TURN3's possible posts...

[grungex]

Clearly Starter said "based on talent" and just as clearly you are ignoring that and continuing to argue as if he had said "based on talent".

Huh? :confused:

[TURN3]

Based on results right now, yes he would be. Based on talent hell no. Talent and results are not the same thing. Clearly Starter said "based on talent" and just as clearly you are ignoring that and continuing to argue as if he had said "based on talent". Not sure why that is.

Gary

I guess I'm not seeing any emphasis on "based on talent" vs "based on results". If that is the case, I can see the argument, but what is an argument worth. The point I'm seeing is that somebody says she's the 5th best driver in the series because she's 5th in the standings. That is clearly ridiculous especially considering the circumstances in this case.


It all depends if the standings mean anything at all. (I imagine that they do to the drivers and owners - and sponsers...) In simplistic terms, I believe that a driver who finished 3rd in every race to date could be leading the championship ahead of a driver who won six races and finished 20th in the rest. (If my math is wrong - you get the general idea.) Who's the "best?"

Anyway, I just enjoy seeing TURN3 get "IRL Forum rage." I don't think I've ever seen anyone with so much true hate for an athlete. (I take that back. A friend recently was wildly booing an overpaid and underperforming professional ballplayer at a charity event. He truly hates the guy and must have thought he was at the ballpark.)

Keep the entertainment coming!

PS: Here's a "horrible" thought. Danica decides not to pit at halfway for track position. It starts pouring, and she ends up holding that trophy for the win - just like Dixon did for "winning" the pole. My imagination is running away from me just thinking of TURN3's possible posts...

Thank you...the name of the game right? ENTERTAINMENT!!!

For the recored, my hatred for DP as an athlete pails in comparison to Bourdais. I've actually had words with him (particularly after Vegas when he punted PT and rubbes Servia to the grass). I've passed by DP at the grocery store several times and she generally pleasent as far as a celebrity in public. My hatred for the 2 in terms of racing is completely different though...Seabass won everything, Danica sucks but still gets hyped as the second coming.

[garyshell]

Clearly Starter said "based on talent" and just as clearly you are ignoring that and continuing to argue as if he had said "based on talent". Not sure why that is.

Gary


Huh? :confused:


Opps! Yes Grungex that line SHOULD have read:

Clearly Starter said "based on results" and just as clearly you are ignoring that and continuing to argue as if he had said "based on talent".

Thanks for catching that!

Gary

[Hoop-98]

http://i29.tinypic.com/wv4nyu.jpg

rh

[grungex]

Maybe it's because at this point in the season, and based on results so far, she is the 5th best driver in the series? Or do facts interfere with bashing her? :D


One fact you are forgetting is the effect of points allocations on her fifth place position in the standings. Her actual average oval finish is 5.5, her average road course finish is 10.2, and her average overall finish is 7.6.

[Hoop-98]

One fact you are forgetting is the effect of points allocations on her fifth place position in the standings. Her actual average oval finish is 5.5, her average road course finish is 10.2, and her average overall finish is 7.6.

Not sure what your point is?

http://i26.tinypic.com/5kg7zm.jpg

rh

[grungex]

Nice chart, what's your point? Mine was obvious.

[TURN3]

Nice chart, what's your point? Mine was obvious.

Not really but I know what you're getting at. I think you're saying she's 5th in points but her avg finish is lower than that because she blows on rc's. It doesn't translate because she ends up finishing higher than she acutally races/qualifies because she isn't competing hard enough to be on the edge. She merely drives through the race and moves up with attrition.

[grungex]

She also races in a series where 4 dead last finishes can give you as many points as one win.

Place Points
1st 50
2nd 40
3rd 35
4th 32
5th 30
6th 28
7th 26
8th 24
9th 22
10th 20
11th 19
12th 18
13th 17
14th 16
15th 15
16th 14
17th 13
18th 12
19th 12
20th 12
21st 12
22nd 12
23rd 12
24th 12

[Hoop-98]

Nice chart, what's your point? Mine was obvious.

I see, well no I do not. She is 5th in points and she has the fifth highest average finish?

So what role does the average finish play based on her results, per Starter, in 2009. What isn't being taken into consideration?

rh

[Hoop-98]

She also races in a series where 4 dead last finishes can give you as many points as one win.

Place Points
1st 50
2nd 40
3rd 35
4th 32
5th 30
6th 28
7th 26
8th 24
9th 22
10th 20
11th 19
12th 18
13th 17
14th 16
15th 15
16th 14
17th 13
18th 12
19th 12
20th 12
21st 12
22nd 12
23rd 12
24th 12


So pick another point system, let's see how she does eh ;n) F1, Champcar, which would you prefer? Although we have strayed I think...Darn there seems to be a race on....maybe later.

rh

[grungex]

Context, for one. Reread the thread...

[TURN3]

Wow. I'll give them an A+ for effort 10 laps in. Great racing so far. I think it has brough the field much closer together too. Even J-Dub is getting after it up there.

And what about Carpenter, Rahal, and Moraes making surges to the front pack...wow.

[TURN3]

And Danica with her 3rd televised block of the night...man the talent she has in that little finger!

[TURN3]

Man, D&R along with Foyts crews should be banned for a race. That was horrible to send their drivers out in front of Moraes like that. Poor guy has had his share of brain fades but was obviously on his game tonight.

[Hoop-98]

Fairly interesting lil race, imo...

[TURN3]

Wow! Danica just took the AXE to Dario...Holy Crap. How do they let her stay on track around other drivers!?

[TURN3]

I doubt Ed has a single fan outside of his family but man I'm pulling for him...just like J-Dub at the Glen...Get 'em Ed!

[Hoop-98]

Count me as number 2 then!

http://i28.tinypic.com/30ur5uc.jpg

rh

[grungex]

This race was a perfect illustration of Danica's midpack abilities. She "qualified" 5th, and raced her way to 8th. Unfortunately, nobody in front of her except Moraes had an incident, so she wasn't really able to benefit from others misfortunes.

Nice racing at the end.

[nigelred5]

Pretty dang spiffy race I must say. Great racing there at the end. I"ve got to think that's precisely the kind of oval track racing people have expected from the Indycars. what ever they gave people back in what ever combinations, I think it was successful. I was even pulling for Ed there at the end.

[NickFalzone]

A little dull at the end of fuel runs, but otherwise, best oval racing in awhile, certainly the best I can ever remember at Kentucky. Not sure how much was the aero changes or the push to pass, but I'm glad they made these changes. I was also hoping to see Ed win, even with the knowledge that the naysayers would come out in force against TG's team.

[harvick#1]

gotta wonder the excuse this time by DF is that she couldn't get any higher than 7th :rolleyes:


hell of a race for Ed, I was pulling for him to notch the win, it was a great finish thats what used to be on oval racing. great job by sarah taking 12th, not bad for a part timer on limited budget.

[garyshell]

Count me as number 2 then!

You and damn near every person at the track. I was there and clearly the crowd was rooting for the underdog. Folks were on their feet screaming each time the pair crossed the finish line. We were sitting right across from Sarah's pit and Ed would have Ryan at that point only to give way at the start finish line on most of the closing laps. One or two times he nipped Ryan. The crowd let out a loud moan when on lap 200 #20 showed up on the second spot on the scoring tower. Well done Ed.

And well done IRL, the aero changes made for a great night. Especially after Justin brought out the yellow. I still do NOT understand why it takes so many laps to restart though. There was no reason, I can see, why the track could not have gone green the moment Justin hit pit in.

Gary

[Mad_Hatter]

Count me in too. Ed drove a clean race, shame he didn't win. He made a fan out of me(sort of).

I started not to go to the race. Called the office about the tix and they said we'd have to wait until we got to the gates to see about tix, started to rain a little prior to the race, but man was that a great finish.

apache flyover = gravy

I'm not sure if it was the lack of practice time, p2p, or the aero changes, but hopefully there will be more finishes like this to end the season.

[beachbum]

I am on vacation and can't get Versus, so I "watched" the race on a laptop using timing and scoring and Race Control. The changes obviously worked, with lots of passing in the pack. It was impressive just how close the speeds were for everyone and even with the long green runs, cars were able to stick together and race.

Without a doubt, Carpenter was the story of the race. It was impressive to watch him run down the cars from midpack where he started. He had speed when he needed it, just not quite enough on the last lap. He sure made Briscoe work for the win, but that was nice clean, hard racing.

Equally impressive was Sarah Fisher's little team. Although they got a lap down early, she was able to run with the leaders and at one point passed Helio on track, and then left him go as he was a lap up. She ran down quite a few drivers to get up to 12th and put in long strings of fast consistent laps. Unlike some others, they were fast at the end of stints, so their engineering is very good.

It was also nice to see that there were no on-track incidents. Switching around on the in-cars, I did see a number of big saves, but the lack of marbles and the aero changes allowed drivers to catch a car that got out of line. Overall, a very good race.

[DavePI2]

One of the best oval races I have seen. I can't believe I didn't buy tickets now and will be kicking myself I didn't for a long time. I have been too 4 races at kentucky and only the 05 duel between sharp and miera comes even close. As a road course fan it is great to see oval racing is back!!!!!!!!!!!!.

david

[indycool]

Great racxe. Bruce Martin covered all the angles of it well in this:

http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/81887/?tf=bruce_martin.tpl

[FormerFF]

Gee, maybe for the next race we can have two threads, an official race thread, and an official anti and pro Danica pissing match thread.

[beachbum]

Gee, maybe for the next race we can have two threads, an official race thread, and an official anti and pro Danica pissing match thread.Danica who?

[TURN3]

Gee, maybe for the next race we can have two threads, an official race thread, and an official anti and pro Danica pissing match thread.

Maybe if you're upset about it you wouldn't contribute to it like you just did.

I for one, can't stand her and the hype she gets when she's consistently underperforming at every race (in short, she sucks). I find that well within my right to be commenting on a race to race basis.

[DanicaFan]

Well, I got back around 4am this morning from Kentucky. What a weekend. I wasnt sure at first if they would even run the race. All day Friday was nice but the track had a lot of weepers on it from the 2 previous days of hard rain. So they were drying the track all day. So there was absolutely no cars on the track for Friday so qualifications were done by points. Frustrating is the word when its nice all day and you cant get any cars on the track. So it was a long day. But hey, I got to see and talk to Danica and her pit crew and her dad, so the day wasnt all ruined.

As for Saturday, we arrived and the dryers were still on the track. They had been drying the track until 1am that morning and started again at 7am Saturday. There was a brief rain about 1:30 so that had me worried. But finally around 3:30pm, the Firestone Indy Lights practiced, then at 4:15, the IndyCar Series practiced until 5:30. The Indy Lights race was after the IndyCar practice and the IndyCar race started at 8:30pm. Only about a half hour late, so not bad considering how it looked.

The race itself was great. Lots of passing and side-by-side racing. Danica finished 8th. I was so hoping Ed Carpenter could of won this race. He came so close, lost by only something like 16/1000 of a second. Great job by Ed. Nothing against Ryan, I like him but it would of been nice to see Ed have won. The whole crowd was cheering for Ed Carpenter too. Pretty cool.

[DanicaFan]

Here is a picture I got of me and Danica just outside her garage. I got to speak with her for awhile that morning.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/IMG_0816.jpg

[Wasted Talent]

Here is a picture I got of me and Danica just outside her garage. I got to speak with her for awhile that morning.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/IMG_0816.jpg


Lucky man!

Did you tell her who you were?

WT

[chuck34]

Boy I was pulling for Ed. I felt bad that he couldn't pull it off. He's always been fairly good on ovals. Now maybe he'll brake out and win one.

I'd like to know if there is a way to tell if the close action was more of an aero deal or the P2P. I think it was more of an aero deal as it seemed everytime one guy would hit the button to make a pass the other guy would hit it to block. So it was pretty much a wash. But I don't have any data to back that up.

Also does anyone (hoop maybe?) know if the only wicker change was the removal of the side wickers, or were they allowed to play with the "main" wicker? The TV coverage only focused on the side wicker, so I'm assuming that was the only one effected, but again, I don't know that. Also, could they change wing angles or was that still fixed? Thanks

[FormerFF]

Maybe if you're upset about it you wouldn't contribute to it like you just did.

I for one, can't stand her and the hype she gets when she's consistently underperforming at every race (in short, she sucks). I find that well within my right to be commenting on a race to race basis.


I'm not at all upset about it, I find it kind of entertaining. It is, however, mostly off topic. I was gone for a few days, and didn't see the race so I popped in here to see what you all had to say about the race and I had to page through the Danica stuff to find anything about the stated topic of this thread.

Oh, and by the way, you're wrong, she doesn't suck. She's a midpacker at best, but she doesn't suck.

[yodasarmpit]

That has to be one of the first oval races I've enjoyed, well the last 30 or so laps at least. As with most ovals, what happens before the last yellow is often pretty meaningless.

There was some great wheel to wheel racing, drivers using quite a bit of the track, both top and bottom on the bends, good stuff.
And so close for Ed, so close.

[TURN3]

I'm not at all upset about it, I find it kind of entertaining. It is, however, mostly off topic. I was gone for a few days, and didn't see the race so I popped in here to see what you all had to say about the race and I had to page through the Danica stuff to find anything about the stated topic of this thread.

Oh, and by the way, you're wrong, she doesn't suck. She's a midpacker at best, but she doesn't suck.


If she's a "midpacker at best", that in AGR's equipment that is still more capable and much more highly funded than the mid to back of pack teams, then I have a hard time seeing how I'm "wrong". She has the equipment to beat better than half the field on ovals and, that is exactly the best she can do. So she sucks. I'm not wrong, thank you for proving my point. (This not even considering any track type requiring actual skill).

I do see you're point though I guess. It gets so fun bashing her because she sucks that it does get off topic. My apologies.

[NickFalzone]

I know that Ed has had some fairly good results on ovals the last few years. And I know that rules changes mixed things up a bit in yesterday's field... That being said, I have to wonder how Ed was able to stay with the 6 car for so long. I'm certainly not suggesting there was anything illegal about Ed's car, and as I said, I think he's a bit of an underrated driver on the ovals, but for him to stay even that long with Briscoe makes me wonder if something was up. I like it, great for the series and the fans, but when a typical mid-pack car is running as fast as a Penske, my radar goes up that there's a trick deal going on in the engineering. Am I the only one slightly suspicious here? Again, I have nothing to go on, other than the fact that Ed Carpenter/Vision being as fast on an oval as Ryan Briscoe/Penske, it's hard for me to believe, although that's what I saw last night. The fact that a couple mid pack cars, like Moraes, were similarly fast, suggests that perhaps Ed's team just got things right from an engineering point of view. But I'm not entirely convinced. And I do wonder if post-race inspection, if they had found anything, that they would let in slide in the spirit of a great race.

[TURN3]

I know that Ed has had some fairly good results on ovals the last few years. And I know that rules changes mixed things up a bit in yesterday's field... That being said, I have to wonder how Ed was able to stay with the 6 car for so long. I'm certainly not suggesting there was anything illegal about Ed's car, and as I said, I think he's a bit of an underrated driver on the ovals, but for him to stay even that long with Briscoe makes me wonder if something was up. I like it, great for the series and the fans, but when a typical mid-pack car is running as fast as a Penske, my radar goes up that there's a trick deal going on in the engineering. Am I the only one slightly suspicious here? Again, I have nothing to go on, other than the fact that Ed Carpenter/Vision being as fast on an oval as Ryan Briscoe/Penske, it's hard for me to believe, although that's what I saw last night. The fact that a couple mid pack cars, like Moraes, were similarly fast, suggests that perhaps Ed's team just got things right from an engineering point of view. But I'm not entirely convinced. And I do wonder if post-race inspection, if they had found anything, that they would let in slide in the spirit of a great race.

I am a believer that there are circumstances where a particular driver's Honda might be "tuned" slightly different than the field's from time to time. There are a lot of "suspicious" things that happen from time to time and we know the IRL isn't afraid to do those types of things (no offense but Danica's steering gig a few years ago). That being said, the IRL isn't any different than any other pro sport where they are creating a brand, a product. I'm not going to speculate when, who, where, etc. but whether it was the case last night or not, I believe it does happen.

[Hoop-98]

I am a believer that there are circumstances where a particular driver's Honda might be "tuned" slightly different than the field's from time to time. There are a lot of "suspicious" things that happen from time to time and we know the IRL isn't afraid to do those types of things (no offense but Danica's steering gig a few years ago). That being said, the IRL isn't any different than any other pro sport where they are creating a brand, a product. I'm not going to speculate when, who, where, etc. but whether it was the case last night or not, I believe it does happen.

As a guy involved in the technical side, this stuff is laughable....Kinda like we all knew ChampCar fixed the races for Bourdais...

Hey look over on that knoll, I see smoke,,,,
rh

[TURN3]

As a guy involved in the technical side, this stuff is laughable....Kinda like we all knew ChampCar fixed the races for Bourdais...

Hey look over on that knoll, I see smoke,,,,,
rh

Well you might want to check your facts and history. PT is on record stating numerous hidden tech gadgets they had during his time at Penske from traction control to more boost than was theoretically possible on the turbos etc. As I stated before too, the IRL has been know for a FACT to configure certain cars with equipment unknown to others (i.e. Danica's steering rig a few years ago). So don't tell me it is "laughable" when it is a documented fact. I'm a firm believer that the product is more important than integrity in any sport...be that in racing, NFL, NBA, etc.

It was only suggested that somebody might have that idea in mind. Lets not discredit Ed or Vision. Lets not also forget that the historic fact of knowing these things exists.

[NickFalzone]

As a guy involved in the technical side, this stuff is laughable....Kinda like we all knew ChampCar fixed the races for Bourdais...

Hey look over on that knoll, I see smoke,,,,
rh

Hoop, you have a lot more technical know how on this stuff than I do. All I can do is perceive things with my limited experience and call them as I see them. I was at Watkins Glen, and I felt like Justin's car was tuned up a bit faster than the competition. And what I saw with Ed's car was very out of the ordinary for that particular car. That being said, I am in no way confident that funny stuff was going on with their equipment, and I mostly have trust in Blanch that they're doing a fair tech inspections across the board. But again, for Vision to have a car that appeared to be as fast as Penske, and a bit faster than the Ganassi's, that makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't you admit that there are some trick parts that come into the sport on occasion that one team or another uses to their advantage? Maybe not even in an illegal way, but clearly Penske and Ganassi work some magic on their cars that other teams do not do. And Penske is well known for in-house development and engineering of car parts. Can you outright say that yes, Ed's car was just well engineered for the race? If so, I can accept that.

[Hoop-98]

Well you might want to check your facts and history. PT is on record stating numerous hidden tech gadgets they had during his time at Penske from traction control to more boost than was theoretically possible on the turbos etc. As I stated before too, the IRL has been know for a FACT to configure certain cars with equipment unknown to others (i.e. Danica's steering rig a few years ago). So don't tell me it is "laughable" when it is a documented fact. I'm a firm believer that the product is more important than integrity in any sport...be that in racing, NFL, NBA, etc.

It was only suggested that somebody might have that idea in mind. Lets not discredit Ed or Vision. Lets not also forget that the historic fact of knowing these things exists.

As I said, I think it is laughable. And yes I know what a lot of people say. I also know that people use the FACT word without the facts.
Of course people have and will cheat, but that is not race fixing.

Evaluating the Variable Ratio Power steering was well known by the teams, no secret.

BTW, if you have a FACT, present the FACTs supporting the fact. :)

"A fact is a pragmatic truth, a statement that can, at least in theory, be checked and either confirmed or denied. Facts are often contrasted with opinions and beliefs, statements which are held to be true, but are not amenable to pragmatic confirmation or denial.)

So present the fact, and the confirmation of said fact or there is no fact in fact.



They get it wrong a lot. But I know how important it is to you to believe, so yes Turn3, there is a Santa Claus.


;n)

[NickFalzone]

Hoop, you are right that the "power steering" (which wasn't really power steering) was a known factor amongst all the teams. I don't think it was fair to be tested under race conditions though. But that's from a fan's point of view, not a competitor's. I also think it's worth pointing out that Danica had some of her best results on road courses the year this device was used, including a podium or two. I believe it was Danica and Manning that tested it.

[Hoop-98]

Hoop, you have a lot more technical know how on this stuff than I do. All I can do is perceive things with my limited experience and call them as I see them. I was at Watkins Glen, and I felt like Justin's car was tuned up a bit faster than the competition. And what I saw with Ed's car was very out of the ordinary for that particular car. That being said, I am in no way confident that funny stuff was going on with their equipment, and I mostly have trust in Blanch that they're doing a fair tech inspections across the board. But again, for Vision to have a car that appeared to be as fast as Penske, and a bit faster than the Ganassi's, that makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't you admit that there are some trick parts that come into the sport on occasion that one team or another uses to their advantage? Maybe not even in an illegal way, but clearly Penske and Ganassi work some magic on their cars that other teams do not do. And Penske is well known for in-house development and engineering of car parts. Can you outright say that yes, Ed's car was just well engineered for the race? If so, I can accept that.

Many people were just as fast, check the lap serials at Indycar.com. The main thing was when Dixon Jumped the restart Ed made an awesome move and got track position. Also he has Overtake left at the last lap and Briscoe didn't.

And Briscoe still ran him down and passed him. Briscoe did not want to clear him, he had right where he wanted, if he cleared ED, it gave Ed a shot at him.

Always look at the segment times, trap speeds, not your eyes and ears when it comes to speed is my advice.

As stupid as most of these series have behaved, CART/IRL/NASCAR/ChampCar, if they blatantly fixed a race they would get caught lol.

In the old days there was far more of it going on, and probably, IMO. the worlds worst was CART/USAC.

But that's not a fact, that's an informed belief.

The info about the Variable ratio (not power, they have never had power steering) was pretty widely known. Yet now it's a fact that it was a secrret lol... try google...

rh

[Hoop-98]

Hoop, you are right that the "power steering" (which wasn't really power steering) was a known factor amongst all the teams. I don't think it was fair to be tested under race conditions though. But that's from a fan's point of view, not a competitor's. I also think it's worth pointing out that Danica had some of her best results on road courses the year this device was used, including a podium or two. I believe it was Danica and Manning that tested it.

I think Kanaan was doing pretty good then too eh?

BTW, one good point was brought up by Tony Kanaan, because of lack of practice they had the wrong gear in the car and couldn't hit the limiter, so they couldn't get the 200 RPM. They could only get 10,100 so the 10,500 was no help. Now if Ed hit the gear right, thats big in this circumstance (limited practice). A little more plausible ya think?

rh

[NickFalzone]

That's possible on the gearing, that's one of the things that crossed my mind as to what Vision got right on Ed's car that another team or two did not. I can accept that Ed just drove a good race, and the move he made on the restart was a big one in terms of track position. So I guess, good job on them. One thing that we haven't discussed though is that the lack of track time with the new car settings may well have played into the good racing action. It's possible that by the time we get to the next speedway, the top teams will have figured it out, and the bottom teams less so. In other words, the passing all across the field may go away a bit once the teams finesse their setups. One race that really needs help is Homestead, which can be almost as processional as Richmond. To me, that and Motegi will be the real tests for the success of this new package, not Chicago, which has a history of exciting finishes.

[garyshell]

I think the lack of practice may have actually played into Ed's favor. Everyone had to make a best guess on setup and Vision apparently made a damn good guess.

As for the question of did the aero package or push to pass make more of a difference in the great race we saw, from being at the track I think it was the aero because there were a lot of front wings right up on gear boxes all night long. Didn't see much of that last year here or in most of the ovals this year.

Gary

[Hoop-98]

That's possible on the gearing, that's one of the things that crossed my mind as to what Vision got right on Ed's car that another team or two did not. I can accept that Ed just drove a good race, and the move he made on the restart was a big one in terms of track position. So I guess, good job on them. One thing that we haven't discussed though is that the lack of track time with the new car settings may well have played into the good racing action. It's possible that by the time we get to the next speedway, the top teams will have figured it out, and the bottom teams less so. In other words, the passing all across the field may go away a bit once the teams finesse their setups. One race that really needs help is Homestead, which can be almost as processional as Richmond. To me, that and Motegi will be the real tests for the success of this new package, not Chicago, which has a history of exciting finishes.


All we can do is wait and see. The race goes not always to the swift (red cars lol) but thats how I would bet my money.

If this holds up that would be pretty cool if it takes awhile for the guys to figure these rules out. When you know how dang hard these guys work trying to go quick, it kinda makes you mad what people say, but hey..the strange thing is I have never met anyone from here (you know who you are) that would insist on this stuff in real life...we would sit there and go ok well look at this, now let's check this etc, here it gets out of hand in a microsec...


c'est la forum vie....


rh

[NickFalzone]

Regarding the Push to Pass, am I understanding it correctly, or does it only work at the top of the RPM/Gear range? It sounded like it only worked in top gear and only then once you hit 10300 rpm. What does that mean for the road courses?

[Hoop-98]

Regarding the Push to Pass, am I understanding it correctly, or does it only work at the top of the RPM/Gear range? It sounded like it only worked in top gear and only then once you hit 10300 rpm. What does that mean for the road courses?

The Overtake, as I understand) gave you full rich which was worth about 5HP over the previous best power setting or 20 HP over the lean setting, plus 200 more rpm 10.500 which would be worth 4 MPH if you were at the limiter assuming you had enuf power. Like all this stuff, IMO, best to wait and see....

btw at 220 5 hp is worth ~1/4 mph but the right gear could help off the turn...


rh

[PA Rick]

Well you might want to check your facts and history. PT is on record stating numerous hidden tech gadgets they had during his time at Penske from traction control to more boost than was theoretically possible on the turbos etc. As I stated before too, the IRL has been know for a FACT to configure certain..........
Penske is no dummy and I don't think he would cheat. But the rules didn't say where the popoff had to be located. By putting the popoff valve in a high velocity area, the valve would be in the lowest pressure spot in the plenum.
And Penske's traction control wasn't a closed loop system, I think they mapped the lower gears for lower power to minimize wheelspin. A closed loop traction control using wheelspin sensors was illegal.
And then there was the pushrod thing.......

[TURN3]

As I said, I think it is laughable. And yes I know what a lot of people say. I also know that people use the FACT word without the facts.
Of course people have and will cheat, but that is not race fixing.

Evaluating the Variable Ratio Power steering was well known by the teams, no secret.

BTW, if you have a FACT, present the FACTs supporting the fact. :)

"A fact is a pragmatic truth, a statement that can, at least in theory, be checked and either confirmed or denied. Facts are often contrasted with opinions and beliefs, statements which are held to be true, but are not amenable to pragmatic confirmation or denial.)

So present the fact, and the confirmation of said fact or there is no fact in fact.



They get it wrong a lot. But I know how important it is to you to believe, so yes Turn3, there is a Santa Claus.


;n)

Tell ya what. If I have time this week, I'll go back and dig out every interview and every article where some of these things were being talked about. I'm not trying to uncover some untruth here, I think most of us (including you) have followed the sport close enough for long enough to know what the h#4@ I'm talking about. I find it pretty funny though when you continuously provide a contradiciton to you're own attempt to make an argument.

You say none of these thing happen and I have to provide proof...but yet you acknowledge the steering rack deal. Hmmm. Was it secret? I really don't know from my recollection of accounts. What I do know is that it wasn't available to anybody except the 2 weakest drivers on the circuit. Did it help? Yes, as mentioned here already, both drivers improved their prior (and since) positions drastically. Especially in Danica's case, she qualified I believe top 5 every race she used it. She never did before and hasn't since so IMO...it helped unless that was some Hoop-98 coincidence. So whether or not teams knew about it (secret or not), it became a big deal, the series had to make it an available option for all teams. It wasn't available to all teams until then...only Danica and Darren at that point. Laughable, huh?

I hope you're day job has something to do with using Webster's dictionary. You might broaden your perspective and use it instead of quoting it.

To make a more general point about engines and engine performance, they're mechanical devices. While all very similiar and almost always equal, they're not all the time. I remember in LV on the oval, PT couldn't practice within anywhere near of NHL or even his teammate at the time (I think Dominguez that year). They qual'd near the back of the pack and had the car trimmed beyond being trimmed. As a last ditch effort, they changed Cosworth engines and at race time, he rocketed to the front in 3 laps (sideways in front of me at T4 after banging off Jeemy!). He led the entire race until Seabass punted him...but the point is the Cosworth engine change is what made the diff. Oh yeah, & Hoopster...that can be documented if you watch the documentary "Race Car Driver". I own the collection and it is actually extremely entertaining for anybody that hasn't seen it, highly recommended.

[DanicaFan]

I got to try some Venom Energy drink this weekend at Kentucky. It is good stuff.

[indycool]

Not saying that "cheating" doesn't happen, and not saying that referees and officials don't miss one once in awhile, I don't see allegations of skulduggery when a .125 hitter hits a grand slam to win a game, a No. 3 point guard makes one from half court at the end of a quarter or a 300-pound tackle retrieves a fumble and runs 90 yards for a touchdown. In sports, these things happen and in almost all cases, has nothing to do with cheating or secrecy.

[Hoop-98]

Tell ya what. If I have time this week, I'll go back and dig out every interview and every article where some of these things were being talked about. I'm not trying to uncover some untruth here, I think most of us (including you) have followed the sport close enough for long enough to know what the h#4@ I'm talking about. I find it pretty funny though when you continuously provide a contradiciton to you're own attempt to make an argument.

You say none of these thing happen and I have to provide proof...but yet you acknowledge the steering rack deal. Hmmm. Was it secret? I really don't know from my recollection of accounts. What I do know is that it wasn't available to anybody except the 2 weakest drivers on the circuit. Did it help? Yes, as mentioned here already, both drivers improved their prior (and since) positions drastically. Especially in Danica's case, she qualified I believe top 5 every race she used it. She never did before and hasn't since so IMO...it helped unless that was some Hoop-98 coincidence. So whether or not teams knew about it (secret or not), it became a big deal, the series had to make it an available option for all teams. It wasn't available to all teams until then...only Danica and Darren at that point. Laughable, huh?

I hope you're day job has something to do with using Webster's dictionary. You might broaden your perspective and use it instead of quoting it.

To make a more general point about engines and engine performance, they're mechanical devices. While all very similiar and almost always equal, they're not all the time. I remember in LV on the oval, PT couldn't practice within anywhere near of NHL or even his teammate at the time (I think Dominguez that year). They qual'd near the back of the pack and had the car trimmed beyond being trimmed. As a last ditch effort, they changed Cosworth engines and at race time, he rocketed to the front in 3 laps (sideways in front of me at T4 after banging off Jeemy!). He led the entire race until Seabass punted him...but the point is the Cosworth engine change is what made the diff. Oh yeah, & Hoopster...that can be documented if you watch the documentary "Race Car Driver". I own the collection and it is actually extremely entertaining for anybody that hasn't seen it, highly recommended.

Have a great day T3..

rh

[beachgirl]

I don't get it. Posters here bit** & moan every time one of the Big 2 cars win. Complain about the racing because nobody else has a chance, etc. etc. etc. Then, when the rules are changed to make things more competitive for everyone, big and small teams, and one of the small teams has an absolutely perfect night, and ALMOST takes the win from a Red Car, you're all suspicious that Ed might have had "special parts".

Come on, make up your minds.

[PA Rick]

I don't get it. Posters here bit** & moan every time one of the Big 2 cars win. Complain about the racing because nobody else has a chance, etc. etc. etc. Then, when the rules are changed to make things more competitive for everyone, big and small teams, and one of the small teams has an absolutely perfect night, and ALMOST takes the win from a Red Car, you're all suspicious that Ed might have had "special parts".

Come on, make up your minds.
Isn't it great, there's always something we can complain about, one way or another. Wouldn't it be great if somebody had "special parts" and still lost.

[TURN3]

I don't think anybody is complaining about anything. Several posts back somebody mentioned something about how when a car like Ed that hasn't done well all of the sudden fights for a win, does it make you think? My answer was that while I didn't want to take anything away from Ed, I do believe in sports those things happen to help the "brand" or the "product".

I'm thrilled with Kentucky. I think if not for the incompetent crew at D&R, Moraes would've been in the mix too but that is woulda coulda and shoulda. Point is great racing and Hope Chicago, Japan, & Homestead are just as competitive.

[drewdawg727]

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but part of the reasons that message boards exist is to come together and post your opinions and thoughts of the race.

You can't please everyone. So people are always going to find something to argue about. That's what makes things interesting.

If we all come on here and say how happy we are all the time.........this place would be dull and boring and no one would care what each other said.

Thank you.

[beachgirl]

I vote for the black helicopters.

[drewdawg727]

I vote for the black helicopters.

SECOND!

[Chamoo]

I'm thrilled with Kentucky. I think if not for the incompetent crew at D&R, Moraes would've been in the mix too but that is woulda coulda and shoulda. Point is great racing and Hope Chicago, Japan, & Homestead are just as competitive.

I thought that having pit order determined by car entrant points was supposed to avoid mishaps in the pits, such as what happened to Moraes?

[drewdawg727]

I guess this race has some rewatchability - re-air is on VS. now and i have it on!