WHAT? Renault team SUSPENDED from Euro GP in Valencia!!

[Giuseppe F1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77354


By Jonathan Noble Sunday, July 26th 2009, 16:39 GMT

Renault has been suspended from the European Grand Prix for the events that led to a wheel coming off Fernando Alonso's car in Hungary today.

Following a post-race discussion with the stewards, it was deemed that the team had breached the regulations enough for it to be suspended from the next event.

It means Alonso will miss his home event that takes place in Valencia next month, unless he moves to another team.

More to follow

[Dave B]

It's right that Renault should be penalised, but in my opinion that's an over-reaction. A hefty fine of the loss of some constructors' points would have been more appropriate.

[Giuseppe F1]

This seems like a CRAZY and DISPROPORTIONATE punishment for the team for the stray wheel.

Alonso to miss his home GP in Valencia then.......or will he be 'loaned' to Ferrari in place of Massa?????

Wow!

[Roamy]

these guys are acting like a bafoon who finally got a job as a parking lot attendant. The only good side would be to release Alonso to drive for Ferrari that weekend.

[markabilly]

WHAT!!!

While I am a screamer about race safety, the fact is he should have been black flagged off the track; nevertheless, running around with missing wheels (like MS at Spa), getting yanked from gravel or driving with bad tires, or flapping exhausts, etc, is a long cherished f1 tradition.

A big fine perhaps.
More strict rules and immediate enforcement perhaps.

OTOH if they banned them because the "thong boy" left early, that would be very okay with me :up:

[VkmSpouge]

Well if what the stewards say is correct then Renault should be punished but to suspend them from the next grand prix is completely over reacting, a fine and points deduction would be more suitable.

[UltimateDanGTR]

what renault and fernando did was very stupid in the situation, and in the surrounding circumstances very dangerous, but a suspension is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!

that is major over reaction, I know it was very dangerous but a fine or something would do, IM sure they would have learned their lesson that way, but not this. ridiculous.

[BDunnell]

Totally, totally ridiculous — in fact, the most unjustified and unfair punishment I can recall in recent F1 times — if true.

[AndyRAC]

Well, at least we now know that if a wheels flies off a car, they will be banned from the next race......

Consistency,....ah there's a novel word!

[F1boat]

Totally idiotic.

[woody2goody]

Madness. Recent events are disturbing, but this has happened many times in F1 before. I thought Alonso dealt with it well. Why should he be punished for someone else's mistake?

[Sonic]

WTF. Is it april 1st and I missed the memo? Wheels do sometimes go walk abouts, this is just an over reaction to Massa and Surtees accidents in recent days. Hopefully there will be an attack of common sense and this pointless decision can be reversed (or at least suspended)

[UltimateDanGTR]

Consistency,....ah there's a novel word!

maybe it would help if we enlightened the FIA upon this word?

[Dave B]

Reading the now-updated version of the Autosport article, it appears that Renault may have know that the wheel wasn't secure when they chose to release Alonso then failed to warn him or take action.



The statement said that Renault "knowingly released car no. 7 from the pitstop position without one of the retaining devices for the wheel-nuts being securely in position, this being an indication that the wheel itself may not have been properly secured."

It added that Renault, "being aware of this, failed to take any action to prevent the car from leaving the pitlane....failed to inform the driver of this problem or to advise him to take appropriate action given the circumstances, even though the driver contacted the team by radio believing he had a puncture."


Should that be the case then the penalty makes more sense. You don't release a driver knowing his car may be unsafe :s

[woody2goody]

It looked to me that they released him before the front-right mechanic was ready. However they may not have had time to realise this before he had left the box.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Reading the now-updated version of the Autosport article, it appears that Renault may have know that the wheel wasn't secure when they chose to release Alonso then failed to warn him or take action.



Should that be the case then the penalty makes more sense. You don't release a driver knowing his car may be unsafe :s

so they let him go knowing that the car maybe unsafe? well then the penalty does make more sense. if they hadn't of realised till say turn 2 or something, then this penalty would have been ridiculous.

with that, some sanity is there somewhere with the penalty.

[Dave B]

It looked to me that they released him before the front-right mechanic was ready. However they may not have had time to realise this before he had left the box.
That would be an unfortunate mistake, nothing more. However the statement suggests that armed with this knowledge they failed to act, and failed to inform one of the most experienced drivers of the true nature of his problem. That's not a mistake, that borders on negligence.

[woody2goody]

That would be an unfortunate mistake, nothing more. However the statement suggests that armed with this knowledge they failed to act, and failed to inform one of the most experienced drivers of the true nature of his problem. That's not a mistake, that borders on negligence.

True, because in the end he had to find out for himself, which could have been very dangerous.

[F1boat]

Totally over the top IMO, sure a fine would be more appropiate.

Its just robbing the fan's of an already small grid. If I was Spanish and attending the next race, I would be asking for my money back.. :(

Me too...

[Wasted Talent]

£50 million fine sounds about right..............

WT

[Giuseppe F1]

So does all this mean we will/could see Alonso in a Ferrari for Valencia???

Unless its a permanent move for the rest of the season, I cant see how Renault's team sponsors would allow it, unless Fred raced in plain helmet/overalls in an unbranded car.

[NickFalzone]

Letting him out knowing the right front was not secured is clear negligence. Lucky Alonso didn't crash or worse. The fine fits the infraction.

[markabilly]

£50 million fine sounds about right..............

WT
that would be far too high, i think.

but no ban

Opps, we are talking about money out of el flavio's pocket????
in that case, not nearly enough

wonder if that is why the flav scooted out early

was not LH doing something similar? Tire gone but not wheel, but otherwise pretty much the same???

nevertheless, it is about time to put a stop to such nonsense with the cars running around with these types of problems

[Dave B]

Unsurprisingly, Renault have appealed.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77358

[Psycho!]

It's almost impossible for Alonso to be with Ferrari in the next round...The reason??Simple:After the race he will be back to Renault transferring Ferrari data...Ehh?

[jens]

When I first read the title, my first thought was that Renault has been banned, because team boss left F1 race too early. :p :

Maybe now we can see conspiracy theories start flourishing - Massa out and F1 supremos want Alonso to see alongside Kimi as soon as possible. :erm:

But the penalty is too harsh, no question about that.

[Dave B]

You want conspiracy theories? Here:


It is, however, inevitable – whether the FIA likes it or not – that the move will be seen by some in F1 circles as some kind of a payback for Renault team boss Flavio Briatore, who has been one of the leading members of FOTA in recent months.

It will not help that the FIA Stewards in Budapest include some of Max Mosley’s strongest supporters, who are advised by Mosley’s right hand man Alan Donnelly. One of them is none other than Mohammed Ben Sulayem, the UAE representative, who confessed last year to have personally provided Mosley with 41 votes for last year’s confidence vote resulting from Mosley’s spanking scandal. Ben Sulayem later became an FIA Vice President.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/07/26/renault-f1-suspended-from-european-gp/

[Tazio]

Totally idiotic.

A team has a spring fail in quali, that partially rips a guys face off through his helmet, is still in the hospital in critical condition with no penalty, while another one has a wheel changing error that causes themselves to be embarrased and lose any hope for a good race result.
Seems like an equitable deal.

[ioan]

There's a start to everything and today I welcome this move to make the sport safer.
The incident was avoidable, yet those who knew the extent of the problem did nothing.

For those who say it's to much: make sure you buy a good protection cage next time you go to a GP.

[ioan]

But the penalty is too harsh, no question about that.

What would be the right penalty then?

What if the wheel went on to kit someone?

Do we need to have someone killed or seriously injured in order to give a harsh penalty for a life threatening situation?

[Dave B]

A team has a spring fail in quali, that partially rips a guys face off through his helmet, is still in the hospital in critical condition with no penalty, while another one has a wheel changing error that causes themselves to be embarrased and lose any hope for a good race result.
Seems like an equitable deal.
Renault did make an error, certainly. But the penalty seems to arise from their failure to act on the knowledge that they'd made that error, putting their driver and others in danger.

[ioan]

A team has a spring fail in quali, that partially rips a guys face off through his helmet, is still in the hospital in critical condition with no penalty, while another one has a wheel changing error that causes themselves to be embarrased and lose any hope for a good race result.
Seems like an equitable deal.

The first team didn't consciously sent a car with a technical problem on the track.
The second one did!

A pretty big difference IMO.

[UltimateDanGTR]

The first team didn't consciously sent a car with a technical problem on the track.
The second one did!

A pretty big difference IMO.

agreed. the very fact that they knew that the car was unsafe yet still sent it out onto the track, possibly threatening the safety of everyone at the race meeting is unacceptable. simple as IMO.

[Tazio]

When I first read the title, my first thought was that Renault has been banned, because team boss left F1 race too early. :p :

Maybe now we can see conspiracy theories start flourishing - Massa out and F1 supremos want Alonso to see alongside Kimi as soon as possible. :erm:

But the penalty is too harsh, no question about that.
Fred will never agree to race for Ferrari while his team is suspended.
He has too much respect for the game.

[BDunnell]

What would be the right penalty then?

What if the wheel went on to kit someone?

Do we need to have someone killed or seriously injured in order to give a harsh penalty for a life threatening situation?

A potentially life-threatening situation arises every time one of us leaves the house. It is, as many of us keep on saying, impossible to eliminate every potential risk.

[BDunnell]

A team has a spring fail in quali, that partially rips a guys face off through his helmet, is still in the hospital in critical condition with no penalty, while another one has a wheel changing error that causes themselves to be embarrased and lose any hope for a good race result.
Seems like an equitable deal.

The Brawn spring could very easily not have hit Massa or anybody in the face. Bits fly off cars all the time without causing anyone else problems. That could very easily have been the case yesterday. Alas, it wasn't. There is no way any blame or penalty can be applied to Brawn. And I think applying one to Renault is wrong, too, no matter what the circumstances. I am convinced that this wouldn't be happening had nothing happened to Massa yesterday and Henry Surtees last weekend — in other words, it's a knee-jerk reaction.

[UltimateDanGTR]

A potentially life-threatening situation arises every time one of us leaves the house. It is, as many of us keep on saying, impossible to eliminate every potential risk.

but the point is this particular life threatening situation could have and should have been avoided.

[BDunnell]

but the point is this particular life threatening situation could have and should have been avoided.

Are we really in possession of the full facts of the matter yet?

[jens]

What would be the right penalty then?

What if the wheel went on to kit someone?

Do we need to have someone killed or seriously injured in order to give a harsh penalty for a life threatening situation?

Well, it's a bit difficult to penalize someone unprecedently. In the past wheels have flown off too - like Häkkinen at Silverstone '99, Alonso himself in Hungary '06. Heidfeld managed to get somehow back in to the pits with a loose wheel in Spain '07. Etc. Now the team & driver have decided to act in the same way like everyone have been acting in the past and suddenly they get penalized.

This reminds a bit of Hamilton's penalties from last year - first FIA penalizes, then they create a new rule to "justify" the penalty in retrospect. It should be the other way around. Instead of penalizing FIA should create a new rule for the future, which prohibits a driver driving anywhere on a racing circuit with a loose wheelnut.

[christophulus]

From what we know so far I'd say it's fair. They could've told him to park the car to avoid any potential danger but instead made him drive around to the pits, putting the lives of other people at risk. And that isn't being over-dramatic, a loose wheel is a serious hazard when it goes bouncing down the track, something we sadly know all too well.

[BDunnell]

This reminds a bit of Hamilton's penalties from last year - first FIA penalizes, then create a new rule. It should be the other way around. Instead of penalizing FIA should create a new rule for the future, which prohibits a driver driving anywhere on a racing circuit with a loose wheelnut.

Some people, it would appear, will not be happy until drivers are penalised for daring to drive round the circuit with a view to racing, owing to the unacceptable level of risk this poses.

[Dave B]

Are we really in possession of the full facts of the matter yet?
If we're not then the stewards should defer their decision. They certainly believed, looking at the evidence available, that Renault made the wrong call. The team are appealing, and if there's any fresh evidence it will be looked at.

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you in that I don't think you can ever totally eliminate risk, but in this instance it appears that Renault knew there was a problem with Alonso's car but chose not to do anything about it, nor even warn the driver himself.

[ioan]

Well, it's a bit difficult to penalize someone unprecedently.

There's always a first time, in everything.

[BDunnell]

From what we know so far I'd say it's fair. They could've told him to park the car to avoid any potential danger but instead made him drive around to the pits, putting the lives of other people at risk. And that isn't being over-dramatic, a loose wheel is a serious hazard when it goes bouncing down the track, something we sadly know all too well.

Something which, to be fair, we knew well before the events of last weekend or yesterday.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Are we really in possession of the full facts of the matter yet?

well no, but if what has been said is the case then i think the penalty is fair. however if this isnt the case, and the team didnt know the car was in a 'dangerous' position when it left the pits, then indeed the penalty is unfair.

Im taking it from the perspective that the statements are true, and so renault were very much in the wrong. however, if these statements are wrong and we have different facts, then the situation and opinion of me atleast changes.

[jens]

There's always a first time, in everything.

Well, if FIA created a respective rule for the next race, no team or driver would try to behave the same way any more. ;)

[ioan]

Well, if FIA created a respective rule for the next race, no team or driver would try to behave the same way any more. ;)

There is a rule for such cases.
The teams are strictly prohibited from sending on track a car that is known to be dangerous.

[UltimateDanGTR]

There is a rule for such cases.
The teams are strictly prohibited from sending on track a car that is known to be dangerous.

exactly. and in this case at the moment from what we are told they did indeed send a car out onto the track that was in a dangerous condition, thus breaking the rule and making the penalty more logical.

[christophulus]

The stewards’ decision (http://fialive.fiacommunications.com/EN-GB/MEDIACENTRE/F1_MEDIA/Documents/hun09_document_45.pdf) says:
Having carefully reviewed the available film recordings and radio recordings and having met the team manager twice to discuss the matter the stewards believe:

1. that the competitor knowingly released car no. 7 from the pit stop position without one of the retaining devices for the wheel nuts being securely in position, this being an indication that the wheel nut itself may not have been properly secured,

2. being aware of this failed to take any action to prevent the car from leaving the pit lane,

3. failed to inform the driver of this problem or to advise him to take appropriate action given the circumstances, even though the driver contacted the team by radio believing he had a puncture,

4. this resulted in a heavy car part detaching at Turn 5 and the wheel itself detaching at Turn 9.

Offence: Breach of article 23.1.i and Article 3.2 of the 2009 FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.
Penalty: The competitor ING Renault F1 Team is suspended from the next event in the 2009 Formula 1 World Championship.
The relevant articles are as follows:
3.2 Competitors must ensure that their cars comply with the conditions of eligibility and safety throughout practice and the race
23.1.i) It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so.


http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/07/26/renault-banned-from-european-grand-prix-following-fernando-alonsos-wheel-loss/

(emphasis added myself)

Seems fairer once you read that. Renault had opportunities to stop Alonso or tell him to park the car, and they failed to do so. If it had been a mechanical failure they wouldn't have been penalised, it was their negligence that has got them in this position.

[Dave B]

Seems fairer once you read that. Renault had opportunities to stop Alonso or tell him to park the car, and they failed to do so. If it had been a mechanical failure they wouldn't have been penalised, it was their negligence that has got them in this position.
Exactly. Mistakes happen, there will always be human error. But failure to act on a mistake once knowledge of it comes to light is tantamount to negligence.

[BDunnell]

Seems fairer once you read that. Renault had opportunities to stop Alonso or tell him to park the car, and they failed to do so. If it had been a mechanical failure they wouldn't have been penalised, it was their negligence that has got them in this position.

OK, I will grant that, and thanks for posting the detailed info. But is there not a grey area with regard to the reference to 'the competitor'? Are we talking about one member of the team not saying anything at the time, or it being known about along the 'chain of command' in the pitlane and a collective decision being taken not to do anything about it? If it's the latter, I will take back my earlier comments about the penalty being unfair, although I still think it's being imposed for the wrong, knee-jerk reasons. If the former, I'm rather more inclined to stand by my original view, with the proviso that at least one head should roll.

[christophulus]

I'm watching the incident back from earlier, and it appears to me that the guy on the front right wheel knew it hadn't gone on properly - he was still turning the spinner as Alonso drove off - but had his hand up anyway.

Add to that the fact that the hubcap started spinning around by turn 2 and I'm pretty sure the team knew about it. It was obvious from the TV footage if nothing else.

If the mechanic failed to tell anyone he should be disciplined, but the team works as a team and the mechanic not telling his superiors shouldn't be an acceptable defence.

[VkmSpouge]

I do feel it is a shame that Renault's two drivers are being punished when they aren't to blame for this incident.

[I am evil Homer]

Reading everything it seems the right decision. Renault were negligent and it's only luck that things didn't get worse with the debris or the wheel.

[BDunnell]

I'm watching the incident back from earlier, and it appears to me that the guy on the front right wheel knew it hadn't gone on properly - he was still turning the spinner as Alonso drove off - but had his hand up anyway.

Add to that the fact that the hubcap started spinning around by turn 2 and I'm pretty sure the team knew about it. It was obvious from the TV footage if nothing else.

If the mechanic failed to tell anyone he should be disciplined, but the team works as a team and the mechanic not telling his superiors shouldn't be an acceptable defence.

Agreed, but I for one would consider that one person not telling his superiors is a less serious matter than that person telling his superiors and them taking the decision to ignore it.

Reading everything it seems the right decision. Renault were negligent and it's only luck that things didn't get worse with the debris or the wheel.

Didn't Vettel and Red Bull get a grid penalty & fined for a similar incident in Melbourne?

A lack of consistency, but then what do we expect when the race winning team has lied and cheated but is allowed to carry on without a single race suspension despite being scum.

If Mclaren had been thrown out, then the Renault suspension would have some credibility.

[BDunnell]

Excellent. Here we go again. tamburello, your contributions to the forum when not tainted by your views in relation to McLaren can be excellent. When you get onto your pet hate, they are pointless and poisonous. I don't care about this being off-topic, but I think it needs saying.

[christophulus]

Agreed, but I for one would consider that one person not telling his superiors is a less serious matter than that person telling his superiors and them taking the decision to ignore it.

This is true in most cases, but the people on the pitwall (and I would assume someone there takes ultimate responsibility) would've noticed by turn 4/5 at the latest when the hubcap came off. Yet he continued around the track without being told to stop.

Would've been nice to hear the pit radio but the penalty implies the team didn't tell Alonso to park it at any point, which they should have done a.s.a.p.

Excellent. Here we go again. tamburello, your contributions to the forum when not tainted by your views in relation to McLaren can be excellent. When you get onto your pet hate, they are pointless and poisonous. I don't care about this being off-topic, but I think it needs saying.

Renault deserve a fine as Red Bull recieved in Melbourne. Mclaren shouldn't be allowed near a race track again.

Sorry if that upsets you, but it needs saying.

[Dave B]

Would've been nice to hear the pit radio but the penalty implies the team didn't tell Alonso to park it at any point, which they should have done a.s.a.p.
Worse, it seems that the team did nothing to disabuse Alonso of his belief he had nothing more serious than a puncture. I too would like to hear the radio transmission. Remember when the FIA said they'd be more transparent by providing evidence on their website? Didn't last long, did it?

Remember when the FIA said they'd be more transparent by providing evidence on their website? Didn't last long, did it?

Give them a chance....they did in Malaysia nearly a week after Melbourne.

[BDunnell]

This is true in most cases, but the people on the pitwall (and I would assume someone there takes ultimate responsibility) would've noticed by turn 4/5 at the latest when the hubcap came off. Yet he continued around the track without being told to stop.

Would've been nice to hear the pit radio but the penalty implies the team didn't tell Alonso to park it at any point, which they should have done a.s.a.p.

These are all fair points, and I am rapidly revising my original viewpoint on the incident as a result!

[christophulus]

These are all fair points, and I am rapidly revising my original viewpoint on the incident as a result!

It's mainly speculation on my part but seems to make sense when you take into account the harsh penalty. The FIA releasing the radio traffic would be much appreciated though :)

[jens]

There is a rule for such cases.
The teams are strictly prohibited from sending on track a car that is known to be dangerous.

OK. :) But still the penalty can be considered harsh, because Red Bull - who has been mentioned here - didn't get banned from the 2009 Malaysian Grand Prix...

[Dave B]

Give them a chance....they did in Malaysia nearly a week after Melbourne.
But frequently we get no evidence at all. As with many FIA decisions, it's the inconsistancy which I cannot stand.

[BDunnell]

It's mainly speculation on my part but seems to make sense when you take into account the harsh penalty. The FIA releasing the radio traffic would be much appreciated though :)

Well, there is a precedent for that, isn't there?

[BDunnell]

OK. :) But still the penalty can be considered harsh, because Red Bull - who has been mentioned here - didn't get banned from the 2009 Malaysian Grand Prix...

And therein lies the bit that I find suspicious. I think you'll find the difference is that no accidents like those to have befallen Henry Surtees and Massa had occurred in the week prior to the Malaysian GP.

[DexDexter]

Totally over the top IMO, sure a fine would be more appropiate.

Its just robbing the fan's of an already small grid. If I was Spanish and attending the next race, I would be asking for my money back.. :(

Renault will be at the next race, believe me. They will get a hefty fine instead.

[Dave B]

Renault will be at the next race, believe me.
By which time they could be owned by a Russian billionaire!
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/07/26/a-random-rumour-about-renault-f1/

[truefan72]

seems like an overreaction to me.
At best I would expect a monetary fine.
But to ban them outright for the next race is a diservice to the fans and pretty much ensures half empty grand stands at the race.
to be honest, I beleive this has everything to do with punishing Flavio/FOTA to the detriment of the sport, the 2 drivers and fans alike.

Those 3 stewards are idiots and needed only look at past cases to assess an apropriate fine.

what an absurd overreaction

[Somebody]

It's all very well to talk about "overreaction"... but less than a week after a driver was KILLED by a wheel which had come off another car, and only a day after a piece broke* off another F1 car and seriously injured a driver... well, firstly I would be shocked if the teams weren't told before the race that the book would be thrown if something like this happened; and secondly Renault should have been aware of that even if they WEREN'T.

*and that would be the difference between Renault & Brawn - a piece snapped off the latter, but simply wasn't attached properly in the former. Unless you can prove that Brawn knew the bit was likely to fall off RB's car, or had skimped on checks that all teams would be expected to perform, they weren't negligent. After the wheel hub came off, it didn't matter who had previously said what - Renault should have told Alonso to park it there & then.

[Saint Devote]

Formula 1 today really entered the world of nanny government.

And to compound the issue by stopping Renault from racing is the stupidest action.

Renault, in my view, ought to withdraw for the rest of the season and tell the FIA to ggf!

[UltimateDanGTR]

Formula 1 today really entered the world of nanny government.

And to compound the issue by stopping Renault from racing is the stupidest action.

Renault, in my view, ought to withdraw for the rest of the season and tell the FIA to ggf!

correction: F1 entered nanny government over a year ago ;)

[Ranger]

Complete over-reaction. :down:

What would suffice entirely would be a large monetary fine and a grid penalty for both cars. Which would be harsh, but reasoned.

Exclusion is just dumb.

[ioan]

Didn't Vettel and Red Bull get a grid penalty & fined for a similar incident in Melbourne?

Not really.
RedBull didn't send Vettel out on track with a known dangerous technical malfunction.

[call_me_andrew]

It's a good thing I've given up on FGP or I would have to lay down some profanities.

[ClarkFan]

but in this instance it appears that Renault knew there was a problem with Alonso's car but chose not to do anything about it, nor even warn the driver himself.
If anything justifies the suspension, this is it. (And I am not entirely sure it does.) Releasing him before the wheel is secure is roughly the equivalent of a "racing incident" - a mistake made in the heat of the moment with severe time pressure. But if the team realized the mistake as soon as he left the pit, they then have an obligation to notify Alonso of the problem. When the wheel came loose, peeled back toward the side pod - with different force angles in play it could well have struck Alonso himself.

Alonso would be completely justified if he is spitting mad. He was the one most immediately endangered by the team failing to tell him something was wrong.

ClarkFan

[ClarkFan]

By which time they could be owned by a Russian billionaire!
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/07/26/a-random-rumour-about-renault-f1/
Oh please, no, not another Russian billionaire/kleptocrat. Wasn't the Midland fiasco enough? :rolleyes:

ClarkFan

[grantb4]

It's mainly speculation on my part but seems to make sense when you take into account the harsh penalty. The FIA releasing the radio traffic would be much appreciated though :)

You can hardly expect them to work weekends. ;)

These "infractions" all happen within mere seconds and I doubt malice was intended. It was probably a compound mistake or mis-communication. Seems to me a bit harsh considering the wheel/parts came off probably before they really had a chance to understand what was fully going on. The team's default behaviour is to continue on until you can't. See Vettel's race as an example.

[Roamy]

this is all just a ploy to loan Alonso to Ferrari.

[BobbyC]

This penalty makes no sense. NASCAR's penalty system does more justice in this case, and here's how I would have called it:

FINE - Flavio Briatore. "The crew chief assumes all responsibilities for his creman"
FINE and 2-RACE SUSPENSION - Tyre changer in question.

If you watch a NASCAR tyre change, the steward or stewardess (yes, there are women who officiate) will watch the lugs for tightness. Imagine if a pit steward sees that tyre not properly fastened and points at the offending tyre, then tells hold -- and if Alonso doesn't, orders the black flag. Imagine Flavio having to talk with the official.

The driver and entire team should not be suspended for this infraction; rather, the team manager should be fined and offending tyre changer himself be suspended.

[Ari]

The pit mechanic would have known the wheel was not on properly and if Nando was indeed not told (and I believe that to be the case considering FIA would have gone through the audio) then so be it.

Nando may have come in much slower or even parked it. Instead, after Surtees and Massa, a wheel came off and went flying. Could have gone anywhere or even into the crowd.

Regarding sponsors though... I think Renault should be allowed to run but receive no points. Unfair to disadvantage the sponsor. Even Macca were allowed to run when they could not receive points.

That said, it's a big penalty but I believe fitting.

[Ari]

It looked to me that they released him before the front-right mechanic was ready. However they may not have had time to realise this before he had left the box.

Yes but the FIA said the team FAILED TO ADVISE the driver of the situation. Nando had told the team he thought he had a flat and they still failed to advise him.

Be it the fault of the mechanic who did not tell them or the team. The fact remains that the wheel was not secured properly and the driver was driving a car with a wheel that could have flown off.

Had the team told him he may have parked it or went a lot slower back to pits.

Had a driver been going past Nando when his wheel flew off could have been Surtees all over again.

The penalty is not because a wheel flew off the car.... it's because Renault did not handle the situation at all well.

I think the penalty is over-stated but I certainly understand the logic behind it.

[Ari]

A team has a spring fail in quali, that partially rips a guys face off through his helmet, is still in the hospital in critical condition with no penalty, while another one has a wheel changing error that causes themselves to be embarrased and lose any hope for a good race result.
Seems like an equitable deal.

How many days have you been following F1? What a stupid statement you've just made. I don't know where to start....

[Ari]

Worse, it seems that the team did nothing to disabuse Alonso of his belief he had nothing more serious than a puncture. I too would like to hear the radio transmission. Remember when the FIA said they'd be more transparent by providing evidence on their website? Didn't last long, did it?

I too would like to hear more.

If it's true that Alonso had no idea of the situation (and I believe this to be the case) then why is HE being penalised? He should be allowed to run around and collect WDC points however the TEAM should be excluded from receiving WCC points and given a hefty fine.

I think the fine should be taken with a grain of salt as if it's not 7 figures it means little to these teams. The real penalty would be the loss of WCC points.

[DexDexter]

How many days have you been following F1? What a stupid statement you've just made. I don't know where to start....

That guy is full of those, don't mind him.

[Shifter]

pssst, remember when the FIA turned the entire field dangerous with the 1 tyre set rule? When they tried to get the teams to run under dangerous circumstances at Indy? Perhaps they should have banned themselves from running the sport.

[Roamy]

Yes but the FIA said the team FAILED TO ADVISE the driver of the situation. Nando had told the team he thought he had a flat and they still failed to advise him.

Be it the fault of the mechanic who did not tell them or the team. The fact remains that the wheel was not secured properly and the driver was driving a car with a wheel that could have flown off.

Had the team told him he may have parked it or went a lot slower back to pits.

Had a driver been going past Nando when his wheel flew off could have been Surtees all over again.

The penalty is not because a wheel flew off the car.... it's because Renault did not handle the situation at all well.

I think the penalty is over-stated but I certainly understand the logic behind it.

Well I don't think the penalty is fitting. However I do think there is something drastically wrong with the picture this weekend. They need to forget penalties right now and get to the root of the problems. We have a month intermission and much can be accomplished it that time. If Massa has a full recovery then F1 is very lucky. At any rate F1 needs to address their problems with all the teams involved. Over the course of the year Mosely has caused nothing but turmoil, confusion and animosity. He should step down immediately. There is a warning and opportunity to right the ship here and it should be taken!!

[leopard]

How many days have you been following F1? What a stupid statement you've just made. I don't know where to start....

Ari...What Tazio said is correct at some extents. No one, neither Brawn nor Renault crew would want deliberately to do that mistake. As for drivers, as soon as they can anticipate and notice the problem it may cause trouble for other, they will make preventive action to avoid disadvantaging others. I see Alonso for some periods slower down the car before the tires totally flying off. Before being implemented, such sanction might need to be re investigated whether or not it is right in place.

Is this common that F1 car can run only with 3 wheels attached, or is it an exception for Renault or Alonso for being capable of handling such trouble. For street car I know whose balance is great, we can still drive in emergency in case one of tires fault, is Citroen...

[Garry Walker]

I despise Alonso, but this punishment is just completely absurd. Total nanny-state. They should just ban them from going faster than 25mph, then maybe it will not be dangerous anymore for the crybabies.


Not really.
RedBull didn't send Vettel out on track with a known dangerous technical malfunction.
They did send him out yesterday knowing he had some kind of a problem though. So if Renault was punished, so too should be Red Bull. Because Vettel could have crashed out due to his suspension problem.

[ioan]

They did send him out yesterday knowing he had some kind of a problem though.

They did check the suspensions integrity when they changed the nose cone and the tires. None of the parts were detached from the car.

You are trying to make up things that are simply not there.

[Valve Bounce]

Reading the now-updated version of the Autosport article, it appears that Renault may have know that the wheel wasn't secure when they chose to release Alonso then failed to warn him or take action.

The statement said that Renault "knowingly released car no. 7 from the pitstop position without one of the retaining devices for the wheel-nuts being securely in position, this being an indication that the wheel itself may not have been properly secured."

It added that Renault, "being aware of this, failed to take any action to prevent the car from leaving the pitlane....failed to inform the driver of this problem or to advise him to take appropriate action given the circumstances, even though the driver contacted the team by radio believing he had a puncture."

Should that be the case then the penalty makes more sense. You don't release a driver knowing his car may be unsafe :s

Having read the reason, as I have re-inserted into the quote above, I have no qualms about Renault being banned. I am only surprised they only got one week.

I sincerely hope that Fernando is released to race for Ferrari. That would be justice.

[jens]

Renault will be at the next race, believe me. They will get a hefty fine instead.

I think it's possible too. Or at least the ban could be postponed for the next race. Because there is just no way Alonso will miss his home race. Bernie will give his all not to let this happen.

[Valve Bounce]

I think it's possible too. Or at least the ban could be postponed for the next race. Because there is just no way Alonso will miss his home race. Bernie will give his all not to let this happen.

Oh! you are naughty jens. Suggesting Bernie would do such a thing! never!!!




hahaha - you thought I was serious, didn't you. :D

[ShiftingGears]

I think it's possible too. Or at least the ban could be postponed for the next race. Because there is just no way Alonso will miss his home race. Bernie will give his all not to let this happen.

If it does get postponed, it will probably get downgraded into a suspended ban.

[christophulus]

Reducing it to a suspended ban could be sensible - the message is sent out quite clearly and it shouldn't happen again, so it'd have the desired effect. Teams would know in future that they won't get away with it. Depends how much influence Bernie still has I suppose, but I am 100% certain Alonso will not be in a Ferrari in Valencia.

[ioan]

Reducing it to a suspended ban could be sensible - the message is sent out quite clearly and it shouldn't happen again

Reduce it to a suspended ban = the message is that if you do it again you'll get a suspended ban = nothing changed.

What the hell are we so sensible about a team getting a race ban because they did something stupid and very dangerous.

It's not like it's the first ban in F1!

They should be happy they weren't judged in Saudi Arabia and have a hand cut as a result.

Lets not forget that their actions did put people's lives in danger and if someone would have been hit by that wheel than prison would have been the likely outcome for Briattore and Co.

Reduce it to a suspended ban = the message is that if you do it again you'll get a suspended ban = nothing changed.


But that would at least be consistent with other, in my opinion, much worse transgressions.



Lets not forget that their actions did put people's lives in danger and if someone would have been hit by that wheel than prison would have been the likely outcome for Briattore and Co.

I very much doubt that, my fellow Tifosi. Every motorsport event ticket is covered by the legal caveat that states that people "attend at their own risk".

[ioan]

But that would at least be consistent with other, in my opinion, much worse transgressions.

There's a first time in anything.
IMO it's time to punished them harder.



I very much doubt that, my fellow Tifosi. Every motorsport event ticket is covered by the legal caveat that states that people "attend at their own risk".

Not if it turns out that a team sent out a car that they knew it was highly dangerous and the chances for that wheel to come off the car were 99.99%.

Any judge would send them to jail if someone was hit by that tire, because on the ticket it isn't written about an accident not about a fully well known and consented danger put on track by a team.

[ioan]

I can imagine there was alot of pressure on the stewards after the incident with Massa and they felt they needed to make an example of Renault, but this is another blow to F1's image IMO.

Letting them off the hook would be a much bigger blow to F1's image, especially after what Surtees and Massa incidents, it would send the message that F1 is dangerous because the governing body and the teams do not care about safety.

[christophulus]

Reduce it to a suspended ban = the message is that if you do it again you'll get a suspended ban = nothing changed.

What the hell are we so sensible about a team getting a race ban because they did something stupid and very dangerous.


On reflection I think you're right - it will set a dangerous precedent. Regardless, I think that a suspension or fine is going to be the outcome, the commercial pressures will be too much to ignore sadly.

If Renault knew the wheel was loose and didn't tell Alonso (and until the radio traffic is released we won't know) - or worse still told him to carry on as normal - it was irresponsible and a one race ban is fair. The important thing is that all the teams should now know a dangerous car needs to be parked immediately, not cruised back around to the pits.

No doubt in this case there will be accusations of a reflex action in light of recent events, but for once I think it is justified. The rules state your car must be safe at all times, so the rule has been broken and the punishment fits the crime.

And I hate to play the "what-if" game, but if the wheel had hit someone the team could be facing criminal charges, so the matter shouldn't be taken lightly.

[DexDexter]

Come on lads, you don't seriously believe that Renault won't be allowed to race in Valencia? We've seen how the FIA works and everything suggests that a fine will replace the ban and the ban will be suspended for three races etc. These decisions that the stewards are making these days are just bad jokes.

[e2mtt]

Some people, it would appear, will not be happy until drivers are penalised for daring to drive round the circuit with a view to racing, owing to the unacceptable level of risk this poses.

Winning comment!

It's racing, things break, sometimes people get hurt. You know Renault didn't purposely not tighten the wheel, so at that point all you can expect is to try to have him circulate, hoping it doesn't fall all the way off, until they can get him back in the pit & make it right.

Stupid penalty. Stupid FIA. What else is new.

[Somebody]

But that would at least be consistent with other, in my opinion, much worse transgressions.
Such as?

No, really, such as? A week after a guy was killed by being hit by a flying wheel, to send a car out with a wheel primed to fly off AND THEN not telling him to park it as soon as they realised it was in such a state is CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE, and an offence of the highest rank.

A one-race ban is downright lenient, in my book.


I very much doubt that, my fellow Tifosi. Every motorsport event ticket is covered by the legal caveat that states that people "attend at their own risk".
That doesn't - indeed, CAN'T - negate a team's legal obligations. That protects a circuit in the event of a wheel flying off in a crash (provided all regulations have been followed). It doesn't protect the team in the event of the wheel not being %^&*ing fastened properly in the first place.

[F1boat]

Winning comment!

It's racing, things break, sometimes people get hurt. You know Renault didn't purposely not tighten the wheel, so at that point all you can expect is to try to have him circulate, hoping it doesn't fall all the way off, until they can get him back in the pit & make it right.

Stupid penalty. Stupid FIA. What else is new.

I agree. I am tired with FIA. Can't wait until the insane dictator retires.

[ioan]

Such as?

No, really, such as? A week after a guy was killed by being hit by a flying wheel, to send a car out with a wheel primed to fly off AND THEN not telling him to park it as soon as they realised it was in such a state is CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE, and an offence of the highest rank.

A one-race ban is downright lenient, in my book.

100% agree.

I have the impression that the relative safe years that went by in F1 with a couple drivers escaping serious accidents have given people the impression that everything is perfect that life is untouchable and nothing can seriously threaten it, to the point where they consider two similar accident (one dead on place and one with severe head injuries) to be a coincidence and shrug it of like it was nothing that needs some action.

[BDunnell]

100% agree.

I have the impression that the relative safe years that went by in F1 with a couple drivers escaping serious accidents have given people the impression that everything is perfect that life is untouchable and nothing can seriously threaten it, to the point where they consider two similar accident (one dead on place and one with severe head injuries) to be a coincidence and shrug it of like it was nothing that needs some action.

But they are a coincidence. There is no link between them at all. This is not like, to pick a hypothetical incident out of the air, two Boeing 777s crashing within days of each other in similar circumstances.

[christophulus]

Back to my previous point about commercial pressures:


European Grand Prix organiser Valmor Sport has called on the FIA to think about the Spanish fans after the Renault team was suspended from the Valencia race

Jorge Martinez Aspar, vice-president of Valmor Sport, said he understood that the FIA is putting safety first, but he says the fans should not be hurt by its decision.

"We believe it (the FIA) must also think of the fans and, as everybody knows, a lot of them have bought tickets to see Fernando Alonso racing in Valencia," Aspar told the EFE news agency.

"We believe they must not be the ones paying for this decision.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77376

[Somebody]

But they are a coincidence. There is no link between them at all. This is not like, to pick a hypothetical incident out of the air, two Boeing 777s crashing within days of each other in similar circumstances.
Sure, as far as it goes. But when was the last time a wheel fell off a moving car because it hadn't been bolted on right at the pit stop? The FIA would have been massacred in the press if they'd let Renault off with this one - the only appropriate penalties were a ban, or total loss of constructors' points for the season.

The bigger question for me about the decisions of the weekend is NOT Renault's penalty, but the fact that Red Bull *wasn't* penalised for releasing Webber directly into the path of another car.

So, if a driver has a problem with a wing, should he park it?
Should the team tell him to park it?
If a driver has a puncture, should he park it?
Should the team tell him to park it?

The risk is there, after all.

At what point, and with what mechanical ailment, would it be ok to continue without any risk? Gearbox malfunctions? Maybe, but then if the final drive seizes then you've got to think about a driveshaft being thrown out...how about a drop in oil pressure?....after all, those conrods are known to come through the side of the block.

Also, by the current FIA standard, Brawn should be banned for a GP, since they allowed Rubens to complete his lap in qualifying when he and they knew that something was broken.

If they had done it by the book, then he shouldn't have returned to the pit. He should have parked at turn five.

[christophulus]

A mechanical failure is unavoidable, but if a large part of a car comes loose the driver should have to stop.

Letting your driver leave the pits and complete a lap with a wheel you know to be loose is negligence. I'd say the distinction is fairly clear.

[BDunnell]

So, if a driver has a problem with a wing, should he park it?
Should the team tell him to park it?
If a driver has a puncture, should he park it?
Should the team tell him to park it?

The risk is there, after all.

At what point, and with what mechanical ailment, would it be ok to continue without any risk? Gearbox malfunctions? Maybe, but then if the final drive seizes then you've got to think about a driveshaft being thrown out...how about a drop in oil pressure?....after all, those conrods are known to come through the side of the block.

Also, by the current FIA standard, Brawn should be banned for a GP, since they allowed Rubens to complete his lap in qualifying when he and they knew that something was broken.

If they had done it by the book, then he shouldn't have returned to the pit. He should have parked at turn five.

I couldn't agree more with any of those comments. Who is to say that a whole range of mechanical failures could not result in a very nasty accident for another driver, possibly with the same consequences or worse?

[BDunnell]

A mechanical failure is unavoidable, but if a large part of a car comes loose the driver should have to stop.

Letting your driver leave the pits and complete a lap with a wheel you know to be loose is negligence. I'd say the distinction is fairly clear.

I forget where it was when Raikkonen kept going with a major tyre problem that was pretty clearly going to result in his car leaving the track, and was generally supported for not just giving up in difficult circumstances. Was that negligent, or does the storm of protest over Renault have much more to do with the unrelated Surtees and Massa incidents than the severity of what actually happened?

[Dave B]

The bigger question for me about the decisions of the weekend is NOT Renault's penalty, but the fact that Red Bull *wasn't* penalised for releasing Webber directly into the path of another car.
The precident - in F1 at least - seems to be a fine for the team. I can only speculate by I'd image that Webber's sharp reactions and deliberate avoiding of Kimi was a factor in not punishing them this time.

In both cases Renault and Red Bull made mistakes. Human error can never be 100% eliminated. The clear difference is that once Renault became aware of their error they did nothing to minimise the risk to their driver or anybody else - apparenly even neglecting to correct Alonso's perception that he had a puncture.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I forget where it was when Raikkonen kept going with a major tyre problem that was pretty clearly going to result in his car leaving the track, and was generally supported for not just giving up in difficult circumstances. Was that negligent, or does the storm of protest over Renault have much more to do with the unrelated Surtees and Massa incidents than the severity of what actually happened?

It was Nurburgring, 2005. Kimi pressed on rather than give up on the win, his suspension collapsed going into turn one on the last lap and he spun off, missing Button's BAR by inches. Kimi was indeed praised for his spirit, and as I recall James Allen was roundly condemned for suggest he stop.

[ArrowsFA1]

A mechanical failure is unavoidable, but if a large part of a car comes loose the driver should have to stop.
Reminds me of Gilles Villeneuve with a disintegrating Ferrari, dragging a rear tyre along with its suspension, all the way back to the pits. IIRC he was criticised for it at the time, but his argument was as long as the car could move under power he would get it back in the hope something could be done to get him back in the race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNJ-1frbzZA

[christophulus]

I forget where it was when Raikkonen kept going with a major tyre problem that was pretty clearly going to result in his car leaving the track, and was generally supported for not just giving up in difficult circumstances. Was that negligent, or does the storm of protest over Renault have much more to do with the unrelated Surtees and Massa incidents than the severity of what actually happened?

Nurburgring, 2005? At the time I thought it was a fairly stupid decision to leave Raikkonen out on track, it was clear what was going to happen and he should have pitted and settled for second, although I'll admit I wasn't concerned about the tyre hitting anyone.

Recent events have hopefully reminded everyone of the dangers, and looking back you could accuse the FIA and teams of being slightly too comfortable with regard to loose car parts - that incident and the flailing exhaust in France last year for a couple.

The death of Surtees and the substantial injuries to Massa completely justify the FIA taking a harsh line on this for once, in my opinion. Provided this rule remains in force permanently I think it's fair.

Reminds me of Gilles Villeneuve with a disintegrating Ferrari, dragging a rear tyre along with its suspension, all the way back to the pits. IIRC he was criticised for it at the time, but his argument was as long as the car could move under power he would get it back in the hope something could be done to get him back in the race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNJ-1frbzZA

Wasn't Gilles criticised for destroying what was left of his car though, rather than its potential danger to others?

It was 30 years ago, so my memory might not be spot on, but I don't think he was criticised for trying to get back to the pits, only that he did more damage to the car in a futile attempt to continue racing.

[Dave B]

It was Nurburgring, 2005. Kimi pressed on rather than give up on the win, his suspension collapsed going into turn one on the last lap and he spun off, missing Button's BAR by inches. Kimi was indeed praised for his spirit, and as I recall James Allen was roundly condemned for suggest he stop.


Reminds me of Gilles Villeneuve with a disintegrating Ferrari, dragging a rear tyre along with its suspension, all the way back to the pits. IIRC he was criticised for it at the time, but his argument was as long as the car could move under power he would get it back in the hope something could be done to get him back in the race.
Two seperate incidents where a driver's natural instinct told them to carry on - which despite what certain posters assume about me I can well understand.

However, the team has a role to play in this. They don't have all that adrenaline flooding through their system, and can take a more detatched role in assessing the potential danger. In a situation where they know for sure that a component is not secured to the car, they have a duty to at the very least inform the driver of that fact so that he might make a decision as to whether to carry on.

This is where Renault appear to have failed Alonso, failing to supply him with information about his true situation even in the face of his own concerns about a possible puncture.

In short, they placed him in unnecessary danger.

[BeansBeansBeans]

However, the team has a role to play in this. They don't have all that adrenaline flooding through their system, and can take a more detatched role in assessing the potential danger.

Do you think so?

I'd imagine they're probably just as wrapped-up in it all as the driver is. They all want to win and sometimes they take risks.

Good job some people don't watch Le Mans....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqs4nEsP7qY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6QXGRfeUZ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RRXeoOrUh0&feature=related

[BDunnell]

Wasn't Gilles criticised for destroying what was left of his car though, rather than its potential danger to others?

It was 30 years ago, so my memory might not be spot on, but I don't think he was criticised for trying to get back to the pits, only that he did more damage to the car in a futile attempt to continue racing.

I am certainly under the impression that there was some criticism at the time regarding the possibility of a wheel detaching itself completely, or of a fire starting, though I could be wrong.

[christophulus]

There is a difference between a team knowingly letting a car onto the track when it is unsafe, and a car becoming unsafe during the race. Both cases should result in the car stopping a.s.a.p. before there is any chance of an injury or worse occurring.

The difference in my eyes is that the former deserves a harsher punishment as it is careless and negligent. The latter should result in the team ordering the car to stop, but no punishment should be dealt out as the car falling apart can't be avoided.

[Sonic]

I have sat on the sidelines and read some of these posts but nothing will change my mind that this was anything more than a racing incident. Did the wheel man make an error? Yes. Did the lollipop man realease Alonso by msitake? Yes. And although I have not heard the radio traffic I wouldn't mind betting it went something like this; FRED "big vibration. Problem with front right." TEAM "understood fernando. Get it back if you can." But if anyone thinks the team a) deliberatly sent their star driver out with a potentially dangerous car, or b) intentionally put others at risk by trying to recover their car, are either mad or are following the wrong sport.

I don't want to be seen as one of these "if it ain't dangerous I'm not watching it" type of fan, so before I posted this I asked myself why do I follow F1? Is it speed? Partially. The risk? Catorgorically no. It has been 10 years and 2 months since the death of a friend behind the wheel of a race car and I wish it on no one. The passing? Nope - I can see better passing at my local club meets. I came to conclusion that the main reason I watch is the knowledge that these guys do something I know I couldnt . If we wrap everything in cotton wool we will loose that IMO. I don't want anyone hurt, but it is a balancing act and IMHO the FIA have gone too far in the wrong direction.

This is nothing more than a knee jerk to the tragic, but completely unrelated events of the last week which were both split second things; one moment in time either way and we would not be having these conversations.

[woody2goody]

I have sat on the sidelines and read some of these posts but nothing will change my mind that this was anything more than a racing incident. Did the wheel man make an error? Yes. Did the lollipop man realease Alonso by msitake? Yes. And although I have not heard the radio traffic I wouldn't mind betting it went something like this; FRED "big vibration. Problem with front right." TEAM "understood fernando. Get it back if you can." But if anyone thinks the team a) deliberatly sent their star driver out with a potentially dangerous car, or b) intentionally put others at risk by trying to recover their car, are either mad or are following the wrong sport.

I don't want to be seen as one of these "if it ain't dangerous I'm not watching it" type of fan, so before I posted this I asked myself why do I follow F1? Is it speed? Partially. The risk? Catorgorically no. It has been 10 years and 2 months since the death of a friend behind the wheel of a race car and I wish it on no one. The passing? Nope - I can see better passing at my local club meets. I came to conclusion that the main reason I watch is the knowledge that these guys do something I know I couldnt . If we wrap everything in cotton wool we will loose that IMO. I don't want anyone hurt, but it is a balancing act and IMHO the FIA have gone too far in the wrong direction.

This is nothing more than a knee jerk to the tragic, but completely unrelated events of the last week which were both split second things; one moment in time either way and we would not be having these conversations.

Good post. I don't believe for one second that Renault would endanger a driver. The front right mechanic was not ready yet, and the lollipop man let Fernando go. Nothing intentional or deliberately dangerous.

[inimitablestoo]

Can't be bothered reading seven pages worth of posts, but for what it's worth, a one-race ban seems overly harsh, and a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to recent events. By all means slap Renault with a colossal fine (something in the region of five figures) but this is just silly. Robbing the Spanish fans of their hero (sorry Jaime) doesn't strike me as a sensible decision either, given how fanatical they can be these days. Granted, that shouldn't influence a decision one way or the other, but...

One thing that did spring to mind (and forgive me if someone has already mentioned this; as I said, I can't be bothered trawling back through this thread at this stage): Alonso is currently going to miss the race. Ferrari have a car available. Given that Fernando has been linked to a Ferrari drive next year anyway, why not work something out to get him in an F60, even if it's just for one race, in Valencia? You can bet the thought has crossed Bernie's mind, at least...

[ioan]

By all means slap Renault with a colossal fine (something in the region of five figures)...

:rotflmao:

That might be colossal for you and me but it's peanuts for Renault! :rotflmao:

[Pat Wiatrowski]

:rotflmao:

That might be colossal for you and me but it's peanuts for Renault! :rotflmao:

And could lead to Renault pulling OUT of F1 completely. As for the stewards action, one word, STUPID!

[Copse]

The death of Surtees and the substantial injuries to Massa completely justify the FIA taking a harsh line on this for once, in my opinion.

Those recent awful accidents do the exact opposite. They imply that FIA is a bunch of spineless fools who follow the pressures of the tabloids and fear their accusations, rather than using a consistent set of rules regardless of the time since somebody was injured, or the name of the driver or team boss.

Would Renault have had this penalty in a GP a few races ago? No!
Were the rules changed because of Massa's incident, or Surtees's? No!
Hence, they shouldn't now either.
End of story!

[Robinho]

seems harsh, although maybe understandable due to current events - whether that should affest the stewards decisions i'm unsure - not convinced a ban is right, maybe a suspended ban and a fine would have been better.

at least it saves Piquet making a fool of himself for another weekend, assuming he's still contracted by then

[Shifter]

A question to ask is, is it at all possible the team honestly thought it was just the wheel fairing that had failed to lock in place, and didn't understand that the wheel itself was not on proper?

[Valve Bounce]

A question to ask is, is it at all possible the team honestly thought it was just the wheel fairing that had failed to lock in place, and didn't understand that the wheel itself was not on proper?

As Piere Maison would say: " It is possible, but highly unlikely"

[Dave B]

A question to ask is, is it at all possible the team honestly thought it was just the wheel fairing that had failed to lock in place, and didn't understand that the wheel itself was not on proper?
That appears not to be the conclusion the stewards came to, but it would be nice if the FIA kept their promise of publishing the evidence so that we might better understand their decision.

[Sonic]

Those recent awful accidents do the exact opposite. They imply that FIA is a bunch of spineless fools who follow the pressures of the tabloids and fear their accusations, rather than using a consistent set of rules regardless of the time since somebody was injured, or the name of the driver or team boss.

Would Renault have had this penalty in a GP a few races ago? No!
Were the rules changed because of Massa's incident, or Surtees's? No!
Hence, they shouldn't now either.
End of story!

Bravo! But when was the last time the FIA was consistent?

[christophulus]

A question to ask is, is it at all possible the team honestly thought it was just the wheel fairing that had failed to lock in place, and didn't understand that the wheel itself was not on proper?

If it was a genuine mistake I doubt the punishment would have been so harsh. Admittedly assumptions have been made (on my part at least) that they deliberately withheld that information from Alonso and raced on as normal - if that isn't true then the one race ban seems somewhat excessive.

[inimitablestoo]

:rotflmao:

That might be colossal for you and me but it's peanuts for Renault! :rotflmao:

I know, but it's a happy medium between a wrist-slapping and what they've ended up with.

The biggest shame of it all is that the stewards have blotted their copybook; I can't think of a previous 2009 call I've disagreed with.

[Wasted Talent]

Okay here's a theoretical scenario based upon the fact that Renault released Alonso knowing that the whell was not correctly located....

Wheels comes off, bounces into the crowd and kills someone.

Renault F1 would easily be found to be negligent.

Sorry you cannot allow that sort of thing these days.....

WT

[Garry Walker]

Some good posts on this thread by Tamburello and Bdunnell


They did check the suspensions integrity when they changed the nose cone and the tires. None of the parts were detached from the car.

You are trying to make up things that are simply not there.

Except that there was front suspension damage (that you cannot deny, they admitted it) and they still sent him out. There is a chance the front suspension could have broken completely and he would have crashed out or into someone.
If Renault was penalized, so too should be Red Bull. And you should be calling for that too.

I am not making up things, I am pointing out the truth.

[ArrowsFA1]

Should any team that suspects the slightest issue with one of their cars, whatever it may be, instruct the driver to stop immediately if they are on track?

Taking things to extremes - and I don't for a moment suggest this should have happened, but the FIA's decision regarding Renault prompted the thought - should Brawn have been suspended from Valencia for allowing Barrichello to continue when he felt there was a problem with his car during qualifying?

IMHO the decision to suspend Renault from racing in Valencia was an absurd decision. I don't even see how they can be penalised at all. The stewards have now set a precedent and it will be interesting to see if it is applied in future or whether this was a one-off over reaction, and another example of why the whole stewarding of F1 is in need of reform.

[christophulus]

I still think the penalty is more down to Renault's negligence in knowing (not suspecting) the wheel was loose but failing to tell Alonso - that seems to be what is hinted at in most of the reports.


The statement said that Renault "knowingly released car no. 7 from the pitstop position without one of the retaining devices for the wheel-nuts being securely in position, this being an indication that the wheel itself may not have been properly secured."


It added that Renault, "being aware of this, failed to take any action to prevent the car from leaving the pitlane....failed to inform the driver of this problem or to advise him to take appropriate action given the circumstances, even though the driver contacted the team by radio believing he had a puncture."


It said that the team's actions had compromised safety in breach of Article 3.2 of the Sporting Regulations, and in breach of Article 23.1.i had released the car from the pits before it was safe to do so.
It was obviously an accident that the wheel didn't go on properly, but failing to either stop the car when it was highly likely to fall off or tell your driver is unacceptable, and I'm sure the penalty was given for that reason rather than the mere fact of the wheel being loose.

If the penalty isn't for negligence then it's much harder to defend. Come on FIA, radio transcripts please!

[Sonic]

Come on FIA, radio transcripts please!

Indeed. However I do recall Fred saying that he was aware straight away that the wheel cap was not properly secured - he said he could see it rotating, so I doubt he thought he had a puncture (or at least not for more than 5 seconds).

[jens]

Looking at BMW's withdrawal, I can't help but think that banning Renault from F1 Grand Prix hasn't got a positive reacton at Renault boardroom either. Partially based on these F1 politics, Renault may take a similar decision soon...

[BDunnell]

Looking at BMW's withdrawal, I can't help but think that banning Renault from F1 Grand Prix hasn't got a positive reacton at Renault boardroom either. Partially based on these F1 politics, Renault may take a similar decision soon...

And if they do, will they be brave enough to say that part of the reason was this ban, or will they come up with some tedious corporate drivel about how the new regulations will prohibit them from using F1 to help develop innovations for the next Clio in line with their marketing strategies?

[Dave B]

Renault's only realistic hope of getting this ban overturned would have been to beg for sympathy for Valencia - think of all those empty seats with local hero Alonso absent. Now with Schumacher returning, I can't see the organisers having a problem shifting all those unsold tickets.

[inimitablestoo]

Wheels comes off, bounces into the crowd and kills someone.



I presume this is why Bernie's getting F1 into places like Bahrain. If a wheel goes flying into the grandstand, there'll be no one there for it to hit... :rolleyes:

[Wasted Talent]

I presume this is why Bernie's getting F1 into places like Bahrain. If a wheel goes flying into the grandstand, there'll be no one there for it to hit... :rolleyes:

Yes, sounds about right!

WT

[ClarkFan]

Should any team that suspects the slightest issue with one of their cars, whatever it may be, instruct the driver to stop immediately if they are on track?

Taking things to extremes - and I don't for a moment suggest this should have happened, but the FIA's decision regarding Renault prompted the thought - should Brawn have been suspended from Valencia for allowing Barrichello to continue when he felt there was a problem with his car during qualifying?

IMHO the decision to suspend Renault from racing in Valencia was an absurd decision. I don't even see how they can be penalised at all. The stewards have now set a precedent and it will be interesting to see if it is applied in future or whether this was a one-off over reaction, and another example of why the whole stewarding of F1 is in need of reform.
OK, but stewards have also been too slow in recent years to black flag cars with dangerous conditions, like pieces about to fall off. Several times a season recently, we have seen cars circulating with a body part or exhaust flapping about, and they keep going around until it flies off. While the recent bad accidents were bad luck, the lack of injuries in those situations was good luck. Perhaps the stewards should take a more active role and leave less to luck.

I would also say that the FIA needs to conduct a scientific review of the recent spate of pieces falling off cars, much like Richard Feynman's review of the 1986 space shuttle disaster. With modern top-tier road racing cars, the accident most likely to severely injure the driver is being hit by an external object, most likely a part falling off another car (oval racers have another set of risks due to sustained high speeds). If reasonable steps to prevent or mitigate this risk can be taken, they should be.

ClarkFan

[BDunnell]

I would also say that the FIA needs to conduct a scientific review of the recent spate of pieces falling off cars, much like Richard Feynman's review of the 1986 space shuttle disaster.

What constitutes a 'spate', in your opinion?