Crash safety-F1 still sucks

[markabilly]

Just saw Massa's crash--SCARY very
Quite by accident while looking for a live feed of motogp, I ended up seeing H Surtees accident, and thought the actual impact with the tire might not be so bad, but the straight on crash with the barrier was too much
Then others pointed out the wheel assempbly and all.

Anyway, now this.


Everyone can look down their noses at american racing, but for years I have been very impressed with corner workers and their responsiveness to road debris and safety---Having worked corners at a few amatuer races, I can tell you that there is an element of danger working those postions.

Even more so is the medical response. AMAZING. And doing what they do, on the track while cars are buzzing by, WELL they do not get enough credit.

Then we have F1, el supremo, stupid and double stupid.

I was at Indy F1 when RS had his big crash on the last corner, and the stupid wait while the ole fart of a doctor got around to leaving the pits and driving the whole track to get there. And when he arrived, he got his little medical kit out.

WOW.
Lucky he did not have a serious bleeder or he would have been dead long before the doc got there. Lucky there was no fire. Lucky there was some american med help that was finally permitted to arrive.

Now this. First the spring is left lieing on the road, no conrre workers around to notice or do anything.

Massa in the tire wall.
Corner workers lollogaging over to check things out. Yawn, looks like we might need a little help. Well maybe. Finally one gets close enough to actually look at him.

Then after however the hell long, comes the stupid little mercedes car with its doc, who gets out and walks over.

well maybe we need an ambulance....so after however long, here comes an ambulance....so let us not get into much of a hurry, what is the big RUSH??

Well, okay, for example, if Massa had had his cartoid artery cut by a piece of carbon fiber---A real possiblilty in a crash like that, he could have easily bled to death before one qualified medical person started looking at him. Or a fire? or ???????

I hope he is fine, but with head injuries, it can be sometime before the real injury becomes apparent, people walk around and act just fine, and then....and as a long time fan of Mark Donohue, hope Massa gets better care in "hungary" than what Mark recieved

or Ronnie Peterson or Jochen Rindt (who did have his artery cut and bled to death while unqualified yoyos screwed around, a completely unnecessary death as good med personnel have been saving people with such injuries when given the opportunity for years, remember the hospital scene in Pearl Harbor?) All three died because of incompetent medical response and care.

So much for el surpremeo corner workers and medical care. They need to take a good look at how it is done in the USA

[Dave B]

A blithering rant from a position of ignorance which, although I understand your concerns, I can safely ignore.

[markabilly]

A blithering rant from a position of ignorance which, although I understand your concerns, I can safely ignore.
Along with the idiots who continue to run F1 race and medical safety. good company you keep.

[Tazio]

I think it's becoming apparant that Brawn is running out of money. FM got hit by apiece of RB's car that wasn't taped down properly! :mark:

[markabilly]

The response to the crash was worthless. I found this photo, and not to be into rubber necking, if you want to see the serious nature of the crash and further reason to be amazed at the lack of speed in responding, here is a link to his helmet and face, taken by some photographer trying to make a buck and already going around on the internet--warning--somewhat graphic, and only offerred to demonstrate my point:

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/formulakuvat/kilpailut/2009/755343.jpg

Yeah just keeping on ignoring

[wedge]

A blithering rant from a position of ignorance which, although I understand your concerns, I can safely ignore.

Agreed.

Last thing you want to do is agravate a spinal injure into something severe. And I should know, becauase I witnessed a motorbike accident and took charge of the scene because some ill advised samaritan tried to take his helmet off.

[Giuseppe F1]

Man, thats horrible shoking, practically ripped his visor off!

[Mark]

That looks horrible :(

I know emotions are running high at the moment but please remember to keep things civil.

[ioan]

....and as a long time fan of Mark Donohue, hope Massa gets better care in "hungary" than what Mark recieved...

I think that they have good doctors in Hungary too. Still I'll admit that I was thinking that the team should get him flown to Vienna (about 1 hour by helicopter) and have him thoroughly checked there during the night.

[BDunnell]

Agreed.

Me too.

[speeddurango]

A blithering rant from a position of ignorance which, although I understand your concerns, I can safely ignore.

Well this is an actual rant of ignorance, objectively. And I would say when comparing to American safety workers, the European marshals are indeed less responsive to both themselves and the drivers.

[christophulus]

I think that they have good doctors in Hungary too. Still I'll admit that I was thinking that the team should get him flown to Vienna (about 1 hour by helicopter) and have him thoroughly checked there during the night.

I seriously doubt the FIA would send him off to some sub-standard hospital to be looked after. I imagine a country that can host an F1 race probably has at least one top-notch hospital nearby.

[ioan]

The response to the crash was worthless. I found this photo, and not to be into rubber necking, if you want to see the serious nature of the crash and further reason to be amazed at the lack of speed in responding, here is a link to his helmet and face, taken by some photographer trying to make a buck and already going around on the internet--warning--somewhat graphic, and only offerred to demonstrate my point:

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/formulakuvat/kilpailut/2009/755343.jpg

Yeah just keeping on ignoring

He has been unlucky to be hit on the head but lucky that it wasn't in the visor. From the video it looked to me that it was the visor that hurt him rather than the coils spring.

[ioan]

I seriously doubt the FIA would send him off to some sub-standard hospital to be looked after. I imagine a country that can host an F1 race probably has at least one top-notch hospital nearby.

Let's just say that I'm 100% sure that this hospital 250kms away from Budapest is much better especially when it comes to a head injury.

[wedge]

I think it's becoming apparant that Brawn is running out of money. FM got hit by apiece of RB's car that wasn't taped down properly! :mark:

Sorry but I don't think its the right time to be joking around.

Accidents happen and its one of the freakiest I have ever seen.

My thoughts are with Massa's recovery under sedation.

Though I must admit Markabilly has right for his criticism. Last year's French GP saw a piece of Kimi's exhaust flapping and then flying off after the race officials did absolutely nothing to ensure Ferrari got rid of the offending piece which luckily flew into No Man's Land.

[markabilly]

Agreed.

Last thing you want to do is agravate a spinal injure into something severe. And I should know, becauase I witnessed a motorbike accident and took charge of the scene because some ill advised samaritan tried to take his helmet off.
You do not get it.
In the USA, qualified medical personnel complete with a proper ambulance would have been there, long before that corner worker starts to actually look at him. Those guys know what to do and would not have been yanking his helmet off, unless absolutely medically necesssary......


Instead, in F1, we just sit around and wait until the mercedes finally makes it around the track and the doc gets out and strolls over.... :down:

indeed his car just sat there for sometime before any corner worker even responded to the accident scene

[ioan]

A blithering rant from a position of ignorance which...

I wouldn't say that.
The whole F1 as a sport , as technology showcase or business is not worth the life of person.

[BDunnell]

He has been unlucky to be hit on the head but lucky that it wasn't in the visor.

Exactly — it was pure bad luck. The marshals are not super-human and cannot possibly be expected to have known immediately what caused the incident, other than knowing that the end result was a fairly high-speed impact with the tyre wall. They may very easily not have seen the item making contact with Massa's helmet; it could be that all they saw was an apparently normal 'off' into the tyres. And how long did it take for the item to come off Barrichello's car and hit Massa? Probably not long enough, I'd say, for it to be retrieved, not least because it seems to have still been bouncing along the track.

[Dave B]

I seriously doubt the FIA would send him off to some sub-standard hospital to be looked after. I imagine a country that can host an F1 race probably has at least one top-notch hospital nearby.
Indeed, it's a condition of passing the FIA track inspection to be able to host an F1 event that there's a suitable hospital within a certain distance.

[ioan]

You do not get it.
In the USA, qualified medical personnel complete with a proper ambulance would have been there, long before that corner worker starts to actually look at him. Those guys know what to do and would not have been yanking his helmet off, unless absolutely medically necesssary......


Instead, in F1, we just sit around and wait until the mercedes finally makes it around the track and the doc gets out and strolls over.... :down:

I fully agree. In 90% of the cases in F1 it takes way to much to have a doctor at the scene of the accident.

[BeansBeansBeans]

A ludicrous knee-jerk rant.

[BDunnell]

I fully agree. In 90% of the cases in F1 it takes way to much to have a doctor at the scene of the accident.

But is stationing a doctor at every single corner of the racetrack truly practical?

[ioan]

Exactly — it was pure bad luck. The marshals are not super-human and cannot possibly be expected to have known immediately what caused the incident, other than knowing that the end result was a fairly high-speed impact with the tyre wall. They may very easily not have seen the item making contact with Massa's helmet; it could be that all they saw was an apparently normal 'off' into the tyres. And how long did it take for the item to come off Barrichello's car and hit Massa? Probably not long enough, I'd say, for it to be retrieved, not least because it seems to have still been bouncing along the track.

It was bad luck and the marshals wouldn't have been able to do anything to stop the still bouncing spring before Felipe came around.
However I believe that further efforts are needed to make F1 safer, cause even when we think we are safe enough such freak incidents happen again and again.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Just saw Massa's crash--SCARY very
Quite by accident while looking for a live feed of motogp, I ended up seeing H Surtees accident, and thought the actual impact with the tire might not be so bad, but the straight on crash with the barrier was too much
Then others pointed out the wheel assempbly and all.

Surtees' fatal injury was caused by the collision with the errant wheel, not the subsequent impact with the barrier.

[JasonD]

The response to the crash was worthless. I found this photo, and not to be into rubber necking, if you want to see the serious nature of the crash and further reason to be amazed at the lack of speed in responding, here is a link to his helmet and face, taken by some photographer trying to make a buck and already going around on the internet--warning--somewhat graphic, and only offerred to demonstrate my point:

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/formulakuvat/kilpailut/2009/755343.jpg

Yeah just keeping on ignoring

That certainly looks like more than "a little bump on the chin" as Eddiie Jordan desribed.

[BeansBeansBeans]

It was bad luck and the marshals wouldn't have been able to do anything to stop the still bouncing spring before Felipe came around.
However I believe that further efforts are needed to make F1 safer, cause even when we think we are safe enough such freak incidents happen again and again.

There will always be freak accidents. Just when you think the sport is safe, something happens to remind you that it isn't. Investigations into Surtees' and Massa's accidents will take place, and changes may be made to limit the chances of similar things happening again, but motorsport, by it's very nature, can never be 100% safe.

[BDunnell]

It was bad luck and the marshals wouldn't have been able to do anything to stop the still bouncing spring before Felipe came around.
However I believe that further efforts are needed to make F1 safer, cause even when we think we are safe enough such freak incidents happen again and again.

I see your point and agree to an extent, but it will always be impossible to eliminate every single potential freak occurrence, and I tend to think that attempting to do so is unnecessary.

[markabilly]

But is stationing a doctor at every single corner of the racetrack truly practical?
At the old champ car races, they had a number of ambulances stationed all over the track, with paramedics and doctors inside each of the ambulances, along with a chief doctor who was considered to be in charge of the responses in a key location on the track, not sitting in the pits somewhere. same as nascar.
do not know about current IRL practices.

And a properly trained paramedic team can work miracles, with one or two taking care of the patient, the other in direct contact with a doctor via radio.
I have known them to stop bleeders and keep heart attacks from getting worse, that in their absence, the person would have died.

[Dave B]

It was bad luck and the marshals wouldn't have been able to do anything to stop the still bouncing spring before Felipe came around.
However I believe that further efforts are needed to make F1 safer, cause even when we think we are safe enough such freak incidents happen again and again.
Agreed. While I disagree with the general feeling and some of the specific points of the inital post, F1 and motorsport in general must always be looking to improve safely. Freak accidents will always occur, and short of casing everybody in cotton wool there's little which can be done, but every single incident is rightly examined and where possible lessons learned.

[Mark]

Does not matter how good your crash helmet is something like that hitting you at 100mph is not going to be a little bump.

[Dave B]

That certainly looks like more than "a little bump on the chin" as Eddiie Jordan desribed.
I described EJ in the same terms as Jeremy Clarkson recently described (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jul/24/jeremy-clarkson-top-gear-gordon-brown)Gordon Brown. Not only did he look stupid making such a statement with no attribution, his information also turned out to be incorrect.

[BDunnell]

I described EJ in the same terms as Jeremy Clarkson recently described (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jul/24/jeremy-clarkson-top-gear-gordon-brown)Gordon Brown. Not only did he look stupid making such a statement with no attribution, his information also turned out to be incorrect.

My thoughts exactly. It was an extremely stupid thing to say, even making allowances for live broadcasting.

[wedge]

At the old champ car races, they had a number of ambulances stationed all over the track, with paramedics and doctors inside each of the ambulances, along with a chief doctor who was considered to be in charge of the responses in a key location on the track, not sitting in the pits somewhere. same as nascar.
do not know about current IRL practices.

And a properly trained paramedic team can work miracles, with one or two taking care of the patient, the other in direct contact with a doctor via radio.
I have known them to stop bleeders and keep heart attacks from getting worse, that in their absence, the person would have died.

You mean the CART safety team?

NASCAR never had it and its only in recent years IRL adopted the formula.

[wedge]

I described EJ in the same terms as Jeremy Clarkson recently described (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jul/24/jeremy-clarkson-top-gear-gordon-brown)Gordon Brown. Not only did he look stupid making such a statement with no attribution, his information also turned out to be incorrect.

Ill advised from the earpiece I imagine. Hopefully it was a rookie error and EJ will think again about playing chinese wispers on live telly again.

[Robinho]

difficult to know where i stand on thos one - i think on the whole the marshals do a fantastic job in F1, but there is a difference between marshals in different countries on the F1 circuit.

Whilst the Dr's are first class, and invaribley the Marshals are basically medically trained i do agree that it can take too long for a Dr to reach the scene of the accident, and given the serious nature of todays incident, whilst i don't think the marshals can have known about or prevented the contact with an errant peice of debirs, i was suprised how slwo they were to check on Felipe, given he was staying in the car.

i don't think it would be a bad idea to have a team of FIA employed marshals to cover the F1 races, who travel with the championship and at each post consist of at least a trained paramedic or doctor.

thats not to say the current marshals don't do a great job, because they do, mostly (if not completely) voluntarily, however the first couple of minutes are absolutley crucial in the case of a serious accident.

whilst i don't think current arrangements are a joke, there perhaps is room for improvement in some areas.

and that picture is plain scary - if Felipe has escaped serious injury i think he'll be very shaken up by it and might not be the same driver again, i hope not, but that sort of brush can have quite an effect on people

[ioan]

There will always be freak accidents. Just when you think the sport is safe, something happens to remind you that it isn't. Investigations into Surtees' and Massa's accidents will take place, and changes may be made to limit the chances of similar things happening again, but motorsport, by it's very nature, can never be 100% safe.

But we still can push to make it 99.99% safe. This is my POV.

[markabilly]

You mean the CART safety team?

NASCAR never had it and its only in recent years IRL adopted the formula.
Cart had quite an elaborate team, with all sorts of stuff beyond a mere ambulance. (actually a number of "teams" stationed around the track)

the last nascar race i went to, some four or five years ago, had several ambulances stationed at various locations. And this is oval racing, where the acess from the pits can be very quick and easy compared to a road course.

When RS crashed at indy, the track (not FIA) had an ambulance stationed right up around the corner along with a crash crew. They were sitting there ready to respond but were not permitted on the track and they just sat there....meanwhile the mercedes with the ole doc, finally made it all around the track to RS...

[ioan]

Does not matter how good your crash helmet is something like that hitting you at 100mph is not going to be a little bump.

Was it 100 mph?
I think Wurz mentioned that it was well over 200kmh.

[BDunnell]

But we still can push to make it 99.99% safe. This is my POV.

But taking things the extra 0.1 per cent would mean not starting the race. It's a fine line.

[ioan]

But is stationing a doctor at every single corner of the racetrack truly practical?

If I knew that someone's life would be saved, or permanent handicap would be avoided I'll station one every 100 meters.
What's impractical about it?
You think they couldn't find 50 good doctors and 100 good paramedics for every race?!

Just think about it, it's nothing compared to what it's worth a life!

I can't even believe the practicality of having more doctors and medical crews at very dangerous event is being questioned.

[Dave B]

....meanwhile the mercedes with the ole doc, finally made it all around the track to RS...

Twice now you've brought the doctor's age into things, but surely at the time the "old fart" doctor would have been Prof. Sid Watkins, acknowledged as one of the world's top neurosurgeons who has conributed a massive amount to motorsport safety. I'd be more than happy to have him attending me, irrespective of his age.

[ioan]

But taking things the extra 0.1 per cent would mean not starting the race. It's a fine line.

It's a fine line, but to be honest I'd rather give up having a motorsport race to watch if I knew a life can be saved.

[wedge]

When RS crashed at indy, the track (not FIA) had an ambulance stationed right up around the corner along with a crash crew. They were sitting there ready to respond but were not permitted on the track and they just sat there....meanwhile the mercedes with the ole doc, finally made it all around the track to RS...

Because Rafie damaged his back that day and Sid Watkins wanted to assess the scene for himself as he was Chief Medic.

[ioan]

Ill advised from the earpiece I imagine. Hopefully it was a rookie error and EJ will think again about playing chinese wispers on live telly again.

Thinking is not part of EJ's neural processes, he's a born idiot.

[Dave B]

Was it 100 mph?
I think Wurz mentioned that it was well over 200kmh.
According to James Allen (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/) Massa was travelling at "around 175mph" when the suspension component hit him. His speed on hitting the tyre barrier is unclear, but it was certainly enough to trigger the G warning in the car.

[Colin_Harvey]

I was at Indy F1 when RS had his big crash on the last corner, and the stupid wait while the ole fart of a doctor got around to leaving the pits and driving the whole track to get there.

Well obviously the medical car was going to drive around the whole track to get there as the accident was in the final corner. It would hardly have been sensible to have the medical car driving in the opposite direction of any oncoming cars.


So much for el surpremeo corner workers and medical care. They need to take a good look at how it is done in the USA

Whilst that may happen in the US, the fact is that over there every crash leads to the pace car being deployed, meaning that the medical crews can be sent out immediately. However, in F1 that's not the case, meaning that a decision to deploy the safety car has to be taken first and then the field stabilised behind it, before it becomes safe enough to send the medical car out.

[markabilly]

Twice now you've brought the doctor's age into things, but surely at the time the "old" doctor would have been Prof. Sid Watkins, acknowledged as one of the world's top neurosurgeons who has conributed a massive amount to motorsport safety. I'd be more than happy to have him attending me, irrespective of his age.

yeah, me too, if he ever showed up in time and walked a little faster.......

RS could have sufferred any number of injuries that would have been fatal in the time that elapsed due to lack of an immediate response---except a mere paramedic showing up within this time would have saved his life......

[ioan]

Because Rafie damaged his back that day and Sid Watkins wanted to assess the scene for himself as he was Chief Medic.

To be honest I think this was the wrong thing to do.

Just think about the fact that the medical team in that ambulance was highly trained and knew exactly what has to be done in such a case. It's not like they needed Sid Watkins to perform an operation on Ralf Schumacher while he was sitting in the car.

If it would have been a bunch of Joes I would agree with not letting them touch the driver but a dedicated medical team with racing accidents experience should have been allowed to at leas asses the situation while the Doc was being driven around Mickey Mouse for about 3 minutes or more!

[ioan]

According to James Allen (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/) Massa was travelling at "around 175mph" when the suspension component hit him. His speed on hitting the tyre barrier is unclear, but it was certainly enough to trigger the G warning in the car.

That confirms the 270 kmh claims from Wurz.
They showed the replays several times but I always watched his helmet and hands not the numbers in the corner.

[ioan]

yeah, me too, if he ever showed up in time and walked a little faster.......

RS could have sufferred any number of injuries that would have been fatal in the time that elapsed due to lack of an immediate response---except a mere paramedic showing up within this time would have saved his life......

I fully agree with you.

[truefan72]

arbitrarily saying that safety needs improving discounts the freakish nature of the incident and the fact that no matter how "safe" we might make the soirt, these are still men driving powerful machines with thousands of parts at over 230kmh at even a considered slow track of HungaroRing (I think Hamilton topped the speed chart at 240kmh)

seeing that picture of Massa really demonstrates how lucky he was that he didn;t loose an eye in the incident. Man he was lucky.

that being said, the only measure of improvement I can see being looked into is stronger helmets with improved visor strength.

But as I said, there is no amount of protection on this world that can blunt extreme high impact projectiles without some sort of damage.

It is a sobering reminder of how dangerous this sport can be and a testament to the skill of these drivers to perform at this level. and that goes for all other forms of Motorsport to IMO, from motorcross, to motogp, rally, sportscars and even superboats.

[truefan72]

To be honest I think this was the wrong thing to do.

Just think about the fact that the medical team in that ambulance was highly trained and knew exactly what has to be done in such a case. It's not like they needed Sid Watkins to perform an operation on Ralf Schumacher while he was sitting in the car.

If it would have been a bunch of Joes I would agree with not letting them touch the driver but a dedicated medical team with racing accidents experience should have been allowed to at leas asses the situation while the Doc was being driven around Mickey Mouse for about 3 minutes or more!


well said

[ioan]

arbitrarily saying that safety needs improving discounts the freakish nature of the incident and the fact that no matter how "safe" we might make the soirt, these are still men driving powerful machines with thousands of parts at over 230kmh at even a considered slow track of HungaroRing (I think Hamilton topped the speed chart at 240kmh)


Are you kidding?
There are always means to improve safety and remove a big percentage of teh possible freakish accidents.

I'm perplexed when I hear people saying there is nothing or little that can be done.

I'm fairly sure there is a solution to every problem that can appear, and thinking hard enough to find it never killed anyone.

BTW, the reach 300kmh at Hungaroring.

[markabilly]

Because Rafie damaged his back that day and Sid Watkins wanted to assess the scene for himself as he was Chief Medic.
He did not know that until later.

Indeed, he had no idea as to his injuries until he got there, but if the paramedics had responded and assessed the situation, he would have known that immediately and known whether he was in danger of expiring before he got there as well as what to do via radio.

Waktins ain't the only one who knows what to do about back injuries and how to safely remove someone from a crashed car--parameds do it all the time-----indeed the actual removal was done by american paramedics while watkins stood a number of feet away, just watching and not getting in the way. I guess you could call it "supervising", but as I witnessed, the paramedics were fianlly being permitted to do what they do best, and looked to me that they were doing it very well, without any help from sidn, and the time from accident until he finally showed up was about five minutes (or more), according to a person infront of me who started videotaping it right after the accident happenned, when i asked how much longer, and his response was it has almost been five minutes according to his camera, and he still had not arrived

[Colin_Harvey]

I was at Indy F1 when RS had his big crash on the last corner, and the stupid wait while the ole fart of a doctor got around to leaving the pits and driving the whole track to get there.

Well obviously the medical car was going to drive around the whole track to get there as the accident was in the final corner. It would hardly have been sensible to have the medical car driving in the opposite direction of any oncoming cars.


So much for el surpremeo corner workers and medical care. They need to take a good look at how it is done in the USA

Whilst that may happen in the US, the fact is that over there every crash leads to the pace car being deployed, meaning that the medical crews can be sent out immediately. However, in F1 that's not the case, meaning that a decision to deploy the safety car has to be taken first and then the field stabilised behind it, before it becomes safe enough to send the medical car out.

[woody2goody]

I think the original post is almost 100% correct.

When I saw that he wasn't moving his head around in the cockpit, I was practically screaming inside my head for the marshals to do something.

I agree, if that would have hit him a bit lower, then, with that standard of response, it's game over. A hockey player called Richard Zednik had his carotid artery sliced about a year and a bit ago. The doctor was on the scene within 5 seconds. Because of this, he lived, came back to hockey, and scored 17 goals last year.

F1 is at the point where it needs an FIA approved doctor on EVERY corner.

[DexDexter]

So much for el surpremeo corner workers and medical care. They need to take a good look at how it is done in the USA

I don't know whether F1 should take lessons from there, a country which has no road courses (outside Indy) which are up to international safety standards.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I think the FIA's medical team do a sterling job, and if there is anything to learn from this incident, I trust that they'll take it onboard. It's unfortunate to see them getting ripped to shreds by keyboard pundits.

[markabilly]

Well obviously the medical car was going to drive around the whole track to get there as the accident was in the final corner. It would hardly have been sensible to have the medical car driving in the opposite direction of any oncoming cars.

.
I do not know how many ambulances were there that day. there were a number. The one I am refferring to was sitting behind the fencing between the last banked corner and the next to last corner as they go up onto to the banking.
the ambulance would not have had to travel towards any oncoming traffic, but went maybe less than few hundred yards or so.

Indeed where i was sitting in the stands I could see rear area of the crashed car, and the sitting ambulance

[ioan]

I don't know whether F1 should take lessons from there, a country which has no road courses (outside Indy) which are up to international safety standards.

The tracks over there are up to the required standards for the series that are run there.
It's not like they are trying to run F1 on a very bad track, so let's not distort the reality.

[Colin_Harvey]

F1 is at the point where it needs an FIA approved doctor on EVERY corner.

Why is F1 at that point? It's not as if there are an increasing number of accidents.

[Dave B]

I don't know whether F1 should take lessons from there, a country which has no road courses (outside Indy) which are up to international safety standards.
I think it's a shame that both the original post and now that one attempt to make this an issue of nationality. It's not the USA vs Europe, it's about sharing best practice and improving the sport for everybody who competes, spectates or officiates :s tareup:

[markabilly]

I think the FIA's medical team do a sterling job, and if there is anything to learn from this incident, I trust that they'll take it onboard. It's unfortunate to see them getting ripped to shreds by keyboard pundits.
if they were that good, they would not be "getting ripped to shreads by keyboard pundits"

Indeed, in this case, you do not have to be an expert to see the obvious, and they obviously learned nothing from the RS accident

It ain't about nationality, it is about the fact that the country that many would say, and i have a tendency to believe is unfortunately too accurate, is definetly backwards when it comes to racing, but when it comes to responding to emergencies, it makes the FIA look worse than backwards

[ioan]

I think the FIA's medical team do a sterling job, and if there is anything to learn from this incident, I trust that they'll take it onboard. It's unfortunate to see them getting ripped to shreds by keyboard pundits.

Everyone has the right to express an opinion, isn't it?!

[ioan]

It's not the USA vs Europe, it's about sharing best practice and improving the sport for everybody who competes, spectates or officiates :s tareup:

Exactly.

[ioan]

Why is F1 at that point? It's not as if there are an increasing number of accidents.

There shouldn't be any life threatening accidents, unless maybe if a driver decides to go head on a wall at very high speed.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Everyone has the right to express an opinion, isn't it?!

I'm not disputing anyone's right to express their opinion, I'm just pointing out that their opinion happens to be a load of misinformed rot.

[Helicon_One]

A ludicrous knee-jerk rant.

On the internet ???

[BeansBeansBeans]

On the internet ???

:p

Whatever next?!

[Helicon_One]

There shouldn't be any life threatening accidents

That's a ridiculous statement when talking about motor racing, unless you want to remove the drivers from the cars completely and have them sat in the pits with remote controls.

[markabilly]

On the internet ???


:p

Whatever next?!
yeah guys great one, :p


i am sure if massa were able right now, he would be laughing his head off :rolleyes:

[BeansBeansBeans]

i am sure if massa were able right now, he would be laughing his head off :rolleyes:

You're just being silly now.

[markabilly]

You're just being silly now.

I've heard, from a respectable source, that Felipe has an 8 inch facial wound, which is thankfully superficial. He'll be kept in hospital for 2 days for observation.

the respectable source must be some insider and explains your attempt to defend the fia incompentency.

as to silly, i merely was commenting on your attempt at humor over a serious accident and the resulting incompetence of the fia response.

Given the crushed nature of the helmet, I think if it is only a facial wound, he is very lucky, esp given the lack of adequate emergency response

[BeansBeansBeans]

I've no desire to make light of Felipe's accident. Abolutely none.

[markabilly]

this suggests the injury is abit more serious that a face cut:
http://www.speedweekmagazin.com/news/5511/Massa-wird-in-leichtes-Koma-versetzt!.html

[Dave B]

this suggests the injury is abit more serious that a face cut:
http://www.speedweekmagazin.com/news/5511/Massa-wird-in-leichtes-Koma-versetzt!.html
Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77273)directly contradicts that, reporting that Massa is stable and conscious.

[NickFalzone]

The tires flying all over the place is clearly a design flaw that should be looked into. Wasn't an isolated incident in the F2 race, it's happened a number of times in F1 as well. If the wheel tethers themselves are not keeping the tires connected to the car in a lot of these accidents, then they need to look at a different tether location, at the very least.

As far as the track medics I agree the Delphi safety crew for the IRL is some of the best in the world, they are at the accident site literally within seconds, and this includes some of the more complicated road/street circuits. They have a consistent crew from race to race that is very experienced with the types of injuries present in this type of racing. The reality is that there's only so safe you can make a racecar from a design standpoint, but you can always do more to have care, quality care, quickly available to the drivers in these incidents.

[BeansBeansBeans]

The tires flying all over the place is clearly a design flaw that should be looked into. Wasn't an isolated incident in the F2 race, it's happened a number of times in F1 as well. If the wheel tethers themselves are not keeping the tires connected to the car in a lot of these accidents, then they need to look at a different tether location, at the very least.

Tethers aren't designed to be failsafe. If they were able to withstand every impact, it would involve them being so strong that they'd cause more problems than they solve (ie - the wheels could still come off along with the tethers and whatever part of the car they were attached to).

It's a fine line.

[markabilly]

Massa was airlifted to a Budapest hospital, where he remains in stable condition.
Ferrari said in a statement that Massa will need to undergo surgery and will have to stay under observation in intensive care for an undisclosed period of time.
"After the accident during the qualifying session of the Grand Prix of Hungary, Felipe Massa was airlifted to the AEK hospital in Budapest," the statement said. "Felipe was conscious at the arrival at the hospital and his general conditions remain stable.
"Following a complete medical examination it emerged that he had suffered a cut on his forehead, a bone damage of his skull and a brain concussion. These conditions need to be operated on after which he will remain under observation in intensive care."


from ferrari

[Sonic]

I have to say I was impressed with the track response. Everyone did their jobs. The marshalls were on site quickly and followed protocol; ie assess drivers general condition (awake? Breathing? Etc) and radio it in. The medical support was on site moments later and obviously concluded that Massa was in no critical danger so stabilised him in car before removing him and taking him to the medical centre.

I can see nothing wrong with the steps taken and is by far better than having some have-a-go hero stepping in a doing something quickly but ultimately harming the driver.

[BDunnell]

if they were that good, they would not be "getting ripped to shreads by keyboard pundits"

Er... have you ever looked at the internet before? 'Keyboard pundits' will always find something to moan about, generally regarding subjects about which they know little.

[BDunnell]

Well obviously the medical car was going to drive around the whole track to get there as the accident was in the final corner. It would hardly have been sensible to have the medical car driving in the opposite direction of any oncoming cars.



Whilst that may happen in the US, the fact is that over there every crash leads to the pace car being deployed, meaning that the medical crews can be sent out immediately. However, in F1 that's not the case, meaning that a decision to deploy the safety car has to be taken first and then the field stabilised behind it, before it becomes safe enough to send the medical car out.

Two very reasonable, factual points. I am not surprised to see them being largely ignored.

[jens]

Regardless of safety improvements, flying objects are and will always remain the most dangerous "things" in open-wheel racing and it's impossible to completely eliminate them.

[Easy Drifter]

Response did seem a little slow but without the marshalls' seeing the hit on the helmet the accident did not appear that severe. Further is the problem for the corners workers to access the track. There has to be a gap in the fence and they often have to clamber over a tire wall. If you have ever seen people trying to do that, especially if they are carrying an extinguisher it is not easy. Not all marshalls are young and agile!
Also consider experience, both as a marshall and working a particular track. That track is used once a year.
Many years ago when Marshalling (I was the senior corner marshall) there was a rollover. A very slow one and by the time the car rolled it was not going very fast. We got there as quickly as possible and expected him to be out of the car as it had landed on its wheels. He died! Crushing head injury.
When Mosport first opened practically no one had experience working anything but an airport track. Drivers, officials and marshalls had a very steep learning curve. Even figuring out where to stand took some time to sort out and mistakes were made. I had a blazing car land where I had been standing seconds before. I was where I was assigned.
I would also suggest people read Dr. Steve Olvey's book 'Rapid Response' to see the struggles he faced to get decent medical coverage. Pretty scary some of it and not all that long ago. Some involved ability to operate in various states without acceditation. Some hospitals would not allow the CART doctors access to an injured driver!
Also read Prof. Sid Watkin's books that detail the problems faced with dealing with medical facilities in various countries. The laws regarding ability to practice for Doctors outside their own country have created many problems for the FIA. Some countries co-operate and some do not.
Yes there is always room for improvement and just having a doctor on a corner is not always an improvement. An eye, ear and throat specialist is not much use as a ER or Trauma doctor. Some countries have good paramedics and some do not. Again finding say a couple of dozen ER or Trauma doctors available and able to work a race weekend will not be easy in many countries.
Hospitals still have to be staffed and many doctors are already overworked so will not be willing to give up their time off to attend a race.
Getting a pemanent FIA team of several doctors would be ideal but think of the problems. If they were to work for the FIA full time their salaries would be out of sight and most of the time they would have nothing to do, even if they were to work other series on non F1 weekends. Should they have other jobs getting time off 18 weekends a year would be impossible. Then you would again run into the problem of working in different countries all over the world. It was difficult for Prof. Watkins, or Dr. Hugh Scully (his alternate for many years), to get accreditation in many countries let alone do it for a large team of doctors.
Even Dr Olvey and Dr. Terry Trammell ran into problems with working in different US states.
As an example Canada is just plain short of doctors let alone ER/trauma doctors. I know some of the organizing clubs here have had problems just getting a doctor to work race weekends let alone a ER/trauma specialist.
It is easy to critizise but the solutions are not so simple.
Hopefully some positive developments will come from this accident.

[BDunnell]

Excellent post above.

[markabilly]

Response did seem a little slow but without the marshalls' seeing the hit on the helmet the accident did not appear that severe. Further is the problem for the corners workers to access the track. There has to be a gap in the fence and they often have to clamber over a tire wall. If you have ever seen people trying to do that, especially if they are carrying an extinguisher it is not easy. Not all marshalls are young and agile!
Also consider experience, both as a marshall and working a particular track. That track is used once a year.
Many years ago when Marshalling (I was the senior corner marshall) there was a rollover. A very slow one and by the time the car rolled it was not going very fast. We got there as quickly as possible and expected him to be out of the car as it had landed on its wheels. He died! Crushing head injury.
When Mosport first opened practically no one had experience working anything but an airport track. Drivers, officials and marshalls had a very steep learning curve. Even figuring out where to stand took some time to sort out and mistakes were made. I had a blazing car land where I had been standing seconds before. I was where I was assigned.
I would also suggest people read Dr. Steve Olvey's book 'Rapid Response' to see the struggles he faced to get decent medical coverage. Pretty scary some of it and not all that long ago. Some involved ability to operate in various states without acceditation. Some hospitals would not allow the CART doctors access to an injured driver!
Also read Prof. Sid Watkin's books that detail the problems faced with dealing with medical facilities in various countries. The laws regarding ability to practice for Doctors outside their own country have created many problems for the FIA. Some countries co-operate and some do not.
Yes there is always room for improvement and just having a doctor on a corner is not always an improvement. An eye, ear and throat specialist is not much use as a ER or Trauma doctor. Some countries have good paramedics and some do not. Again finding say a couple of dozen ER or Trauma doctors available and able to work a race weekend will not be easy in many countries.
Hospitals still have to be staffed and many doctors are already overworked so will not be willing to give up their time off to attend a race.
Getting a pemanent FIA team of several doctors would be ideal but think of the problems. If they were to work for the FIA full time their salaries would be out of sight and most of the time they would have nothing to do, even if they were to work other series on non F1 weekends. Should they have other jobs getting time off 18 weekends a year would be impossible. Then you would again run into the problem of working in different countries all over the world. It was difficult for Prof. Watkins, or Dr. Hugh Scully (his alternate for many years), to get accreditation in many countries let alone do it for a large team of doctors.
Even Dr Olvey and Dr. Terry Trammell ran into problems with working in different US states.
As an example Canada is just plain short of doctors let alone ER/trauma doctors. I know some of the organizing clubs here have had problems just getting a doctor to work race weekends let alone a ER/trauma specialist.
It is easy to critizise but the solutions are not so simple.
Hopefully some positive developments will come from this accident.

Good points, for a change from the other stuff from certain others thinking the choice is their own GP or a PM to me, etc. , but it highlights the problems of racing in some of the countries where BE has choosen, instead of places like Canada. Those countries that will not cooperate on licensing, do not get a race.....

Hospitals often have all sorts of regs and malpractice issues in the USA regarding who can do what inside their walls, but I am talking about immediate responses to the crash site.

Nevertheless, the FIA drug Dr. Waktins around forever in all these countries, and the expenses of hiring four crews of paramedic/crash specialists to work the whole series, located at key portions of the track, would be small compared to all the other expenses.

What i saw at Indy was abysmal compared to the usual responses at other races at Indy.

Bottom line, FIA seems to have learned little since the crash of RS to make any improvements.

(p/S--You can see the gap in the fence from the camera showing the car buried in the barrier almost up to the driver---any worthy marshall, including you, would have immediately recognized the serious potential and not just meandered up afterwards)

[Easy Drifter]

I do concur with Markabilly that the equivilant of the IRL/NHRA safety teams would be an improvement and hopefully that might be implemented. Using skilled personell (even Drs. disguised as paramedics) might be fairly easy to accomplish.

[Shifter]

well, the only thing that I can say as a corner worker for the SCCA is that, given the number of people stationed and responding to the car, one should have sprinted and checked on the condition of the driver, another of course moving in as fast as possible with the extinguisher. What I saw instead was the 'lift bar' for crash recovery being inserted to the car and a couple seconds later finally the ambulance signal was given. I can't imagine messing around with a tow strap until I was 100% sure the driver was okay.

[ClarkFan]

Cart had quite an elaborate team, with all sorts of stuff beyond a mere ambulance. (actually a number of "teams" stationed around the track)

the last nascar race i went to, some four or five years ago, had several ambulances stationed at various locations. And this is oval racing, where the acess from the pits can be very quick and easy compared to a road course.

When RS crashed at indy, the track (not FIA) had an ambulance stationed right up around the corner along with a crash crew. They were sitting there ready to respond but were not permitted on the track and they just sat there....meanwhile the mercedes with the ole doc, finally made it all around the track to RS...
Bottom line - current F1 procedures for responding to an accident with driver injury are at 15+ years behind the times, as reflected in CART procedures. And there is no good reason for a practice/qualifying session/race to continue when a driver is seriously injured, if continuing the racing impairs the EMT response. Red flag, stop in place or immediately return to the pits is an entirely reasonable safety procedure to save a life. And Massa's injuries were clearly serious - he was unconcious for a significant period of time and his injuries included a fractured skull (Ferrari's "bone damage to the skull" minimizes a possibly serious problem). Unconscious = brain injury and the seriousness requires a sophisticated medical facility to evaluate.

Given the massive amounts CVC charges a track to sanction a race, it ought to be entirely within their budget to ensure state-of-the-art EMT response at every track in the series. That would include multiple medically-qualified response teams stationed around the track. In what claims to be the premier racing series in the world, there is no excuse for inept safety procedures. That was Jackie Stewart's message 40 years ago, and I would point out that the powers behind F1 fought him then, too.

ClarkFan

[ioan]

Bottom line - current F1 procedures for responding to an accident with driver injury are at 15+ years behind the times, as reflected in CART procedures. And there is no good reason for a practice/qualifying session/race to continue when a driver is seriously injured, if continuing the racing impairs the EMT response. Red flag, stop in place or immediately return to the pits is an entirely reasonable safety procedure to save a life. And Massa's injuries were clearly serious - he was unconcious for a significant period of time and his injuries included a fractured skull (Ferrari's "bone damage to the skull" minimizes a possibly serious problem). Unconscious = brain injury and the seriousness requires a sophisticated medical facility to evaluate.

Given the massive amounts CVC charges a track to sanction a race, it ought to be entirely within their budget to ensure state-of-the-art EMT response at every track in the series. That would include multiple medically-qualified response teams stationed around the track. In what claims to be the premier racing series in the world, there is no excuse for inept safety procedures. That was Jackie Stewart's message 40 years ago, and I would point out that the powers behind F1 fought him then, too.

ClarkFan


I agree, it's a sad situation.

[markabilly]

well, the only thing that I can say as a corner worker for the SCCA is that, given the number of people stationed and responding to the car, one should have sprinted and checked on the condition of the driver, another of course moving in as fast as possible with the extinguisher. What I saw instead was the 'lift bar' for crash recovery being inserted to the car and a couple seconds later finally the ambulance signal was given. I can't imagine messing around with a tow strap until I was 100% sure the driver was okay.
yeah, i wondered if they were just going use the crane to lift the car with him still inside, pulling the tires around and stuff....I was like NO

and the damage to the helmet was very obvious

[ClarkFan]

To be honest I think this was the wrong thing to do.

Just think about the fact that the medical team in that ambulance was highly trained and knew exactly what has to be done in such a case. It's not like they needed Sid Watkins to perform an operation on Ralf Schumacher while he was sitting in the car.

If it would have been a bunch of Joes I would agree with not letting them touch the driver but a dedicated medical team with racing accidents experience should have been allowed to at leas asses the situation while the Doc was being driven around Mickey Mouse for about 3 minutes or more!
Exactly the point that applies today, too. With a severe injury (which RS had and FM had today), fast response can save a life. F1 protocols create unnecessary delay.

BTW, for other posters, Massa's injuries are not "superficial." Doctors don't schedule surgery immediately after superficial injuries and they only send you to ICU after surgery if they are concerned you might die.

ClarkFan

[woody2goody]

The last few posts have been very well considered and thought out.

Having thought about this for a while, the only complaint I have was the marshals didn't get really close to the car quickly enough. None of them went to, for example look in Felipe's eyes if possible, or talk to him.

I think most of us could tell it was potentially serious, mostly because of his head not moving. The response could have been better, but in hindsight not as much as I first thought.

[woody2goody]

they only send you to ICU after surgery if they are concerned you might die.

ClarkFan

Yeah, but most operations on the head, and possibly the brain carry an increased risk, so this is pretty normal.

it's been all good news so far, so lets hope it all continues in the same vein until Felipe is fully better.

[AndyRAC]

Of all the sports worldwide - F1 shouldn't really have a problem when it comes to funding the relevant safety practices/personnel.
We have been extremely unlucky and lucky today. Unlucky that Massa happened to be following when he was hit by the suspension spring, but thankfully lucky that his injuries weren't more serious.

[ClarkFan]

Yeah, but most operations on the head, and possibly the brain carry an increased risk, so this is pretty normal.

it's been all good news so far, so lets hope it all continues in the same vein until Felipe is fully better.
Absolutely. I hope he can return this season, in full form.

My issue was that safety officials need to assume that any injury is serious and set their goals for response time accordingly. With current safety measures, serious injury probably does require a very low probablity set of events. But to take the next step and assume that injuries are by definition not serious only invites tragedy.

ClarkFan

[woody2goody]

Absolutely. I hope he can return this season, in full form.

My issue was that safety officials need to assume that any injury is serious and set their goals for response time accordingly. With current safety measures, serious injury probably does require a very low probablity set of events. But to take the next step and assume that injuries are by definition not serious only invites tragedy.

ClarkFan

Well, at first, and it may have done to you as well, just looked like Kovalainen's crash in Spain last year, and Schumi's one in Silverstone, which would have said to me: 'not serious, but there may be injuries'.

It was the head movement (or lack of it) that made it look serious.

there wasn't any real reason for the marshals to panic, but they did their job well in calling for the doctors. It's up to them to decide the seriousness of the situation.

[markabilly]

BTW, for other posters, Massa's injuries are not "superficial." Doctors don't schedule surgery immediately after superficial injuries and they only send you to ICU after surgery if they are concerned you might die.

ClarkFan

And with a potential brain injury and unrelated surgery, they (experienced doctors) will wait to see the head injury resolve or that it gets no worse over 24 hours, then do the surgery, unless there is a very pressing need to do it immediately--which happenned here, appearently within a couple of hours after the accident.

As to brain scans, no doctor relies on them right after an exam to say there is no serious injury. The brain scan can demonstrate the presence of a serious injury, but the absence does not mean a serious injury is not still developing, and surgery/sedation can mask such problems.

which also relates to one reason to avoid pain killers where possible is to permit continued assessments----no need to be panicking as to whether the slurred speech is the result of the sudden development of a worsening problem or drugs, unless one is already aware of the brain injury and sufferring by a patient would serve no further purpose---again the type of decision made by an experienced specialist, and that he is now in ICU, shows Felipe does have a serious injury. Very.

[woody2goody]

Sky Sports News has just reported that Massa is now in a 'life-threatening condition'

I'm not sure I could take it following what happened last weekend :(

[ArrowsFA1]

Having thought about this for a while, the only complaint I have was the marshals didn't get really close to the car quickly enough. None of them went to, for example look in Felipe's eyes if possible, or talk to him.
I thought - and I haven't seen the incident since watching it live on tv - that there was a marshall (or medic) at Felipe's side pretty quickly. He may not have appeared to be doing much, but then perhaps he was not trained to do so. I would imagine the safety team as a whole have set procedures in these cases, and everyone has a job to do. What may seem inaction to us is part of a well rehearsed procedure.

As for the accident itself, it was a feak set of circumstances that you simply cannot legislate against. That's not the same as saying you can't learn anything for it, but it is simply not possible to eliminate all danger from what is an inherently dangerous sport. We all know how much safety has improved over the decades, but whenever people drive cars quickly there is danger. The only way to eliminate that danger entirely is to prevent people driving cars quickly.

Edit - just seen woody's post. The BBC have said Felipe's condition is "serious, life threatening but stable"

[markabilly]

Sky Sports News has just reported that Massa is now in a 'life-threatening condition'

I'm not sure I could take it following what happened last weekend :(
me neither
and the concern I expressed in the post above.

It takes 24 hours to be sure, and we are are not close to that right now.

[markabilly]

http://twitter.com/BreakingNews

supposed ly from AP news:


AP: Hospital official says Felipe Massa is in "serious, life-threatening but stable" condition...following surgery

[BeansBeansBeans]

BTW, for other posters, Massa's injuries are not "superficial." Doctors don't schedule surgery immediately after superficial injuries and they only send you to ICU after surgery if they are concerned you might die.

FWIW I posted that before the statement was released regarding the true extent of his injuries. It was from a respectable source, but it appears to have been paddock chinese whispers. Naturally, once it became clear that Felipe was to undergo an operation and a stint in ICU, it was obvious that the injuries weren't superficial at all.

[markabilly]

ESPN says:


BUDAPEST, Hungary -- Hospital officials said Formula One driver Felipe Massa is in "life-threatening" condition after undergoing surgery for a fractured skull from a high-speed crash at Hungarian Grand Prix qualifying.

Officials at the AEK military hospital said Saturday that Massa will be kept sedated on a respirator in an intensive care unit.

Medical director Peter Bazso said at a news conference that "Massa's condition is serious, life-threatening but stable."

Bazso and chief surgeon Lajos Zsiros say they expect Massa to be awoken Sunday.

The 28-year-old Brazilian had surgery one hour after arriving at the hospital, the doctors said.

The crash occurred Saturday after a spring had fallen off another car and flew up and struck Massa in the helmet. An apparently dazed Massa continued driving over a curb and across the track. He went through the gravel area alongside the Formula One circuit before striking a tire-lined barrier.

The impact of the rear suspension part -- a standard component that Brawn GP team principal Ross Brawn believed was made of steel -- damaged the left side of Massa's helmet, ripping out the visor and leaving a long dent on its side. Blood was seen above Massa's left eye.

[ioan]

BTW, for other posters, Massa's injuries are not "superficial." Doctors don't schedule surgery immediately after superficial injuries and they only send you to ICU after surgery if they are concerned you might die.

Not always.
My GF broke a bone while skating this year, she even walked to the hospital with the broken bone (I wasn't there at the time) and they scheduled her for immediate surgery.
The reason for that is that if you don't do it straight away you will have to wait until the swelling, that follows the trauma within little time, is gone and that can take as much as 5 to 7 days!
Also all the people who have surgery are put on intensive care at least for 3 hours after the end of the surgery, at least here.

[markabilly]

Not always.
My GF broke a bone while skating this year, she even walked to the hospital with the broken bone (I wasn't there at the time) and they scheduled her for immediate surgery.
The reason for that is that if you don't do it straight away you will have to wait until the swelling, that follows the trauma within little time, is gone and that can take as much as 5 to 7 days!
Also all the people who have surgery are put on intensive care at least for 3 hours after the end of the surgery, at least here.
Broken bones in the legs can be very serious and delayed surgery can be fatal, per ronnie peterson,

but it is not an easy decision on surgery where head injuries are also involved

[ioan]

Broken bones in the legs can be very serious and delayed surgery can be fatal, per ronnie peterson,

This wasn't a major broken bone, it was just the end of one of the bones that form the ankle.
I was very sad that I wasn't there at that time as I wouldn't have left her to walk on that foot, but everything went well and after 6 weeks she was able to stand on it again.

TBH many minor health problems can turn ugly if not treated in the right way.

[markabilly]

In this case, it probably does not matter about the delay making the injuries worse, although if they had used the crane to start jerking the car around with him inside.......

but F1 ever has a crash similar to Zanardi's 2001 crash, the driver will be dead. Even though the race was in Germany, CART still brought enough of their crash team to take the action necessary to save his life despite the fact that his legs and arms were basically crushed or ripped off.

With delayed response today (or that at Indy with RS), Zanardi would have been dead before a proper medical team could have taken the actions necessary to save his life.

[ClarkFan]

but it is not an easy decision on surgery where head injuries are also involved
That would indicate they were worried about bleeding on the brain and the resulting cranial pressure. Not good.

ClarkFan

[ClarkFan]

In this case, it probably does not matter about the delay making the injuries worse, although if they had used the crane to start jerking the car around with him inside.......

but F1 ever has a crash similar to Zanardi's 2001 crash, the driver will be dead. Even though the race was in Germany, CART still brought enough of their crash team to take the action necessary to save his life despite the fact that his legs and arms were basically crushed or ripped off.

With delayed response today (or that at Indy with RS), Zanardi would have been dead before a proper medical team could have taken the actions necessary to save his life.
And the arguments about the expense of full time medical teams lack merit in F1. This is a series that earlier this year bragged about being a multi-billion dollar enterprise and spends millions each race meet on hospitality motorhomes and parties.....

ClarkFan

[Jake Stephens]

I just checked wikipedia, the title said Felipe died 26th of July 2009 but after refreshed the page, it had disappeared, im serious.

[BDunnell]

And the arguments about the expense of full time medical teams lack merit in F1. This is a series that earlier this year bragged about being a multi-billion dollar enterprise and spends millions each race meet on hospitality motorhomes and parties.....

ClarkFan

I certainly agree with that point. Any complaints from those involved in F1 about spending money on such things stick in the throat.

[ClarkFan]

I just checked wikipedia, the title said Felipe died 26th of July 2009 but after refreshed the page, it had disappeared, im serious.
In this kind of situation, even the motor racing press is much more reliable than Wikipedia. All sorts of mischief can make it onto a Wikipedia page before it is corrected or closed to non-registered posters.

ClarkFan

[N. Jones]

All I care about is Felipe's health. I hope like hell he comes out of this okay.

[Jake Stephens]

In this kind of situation, even the motor racing press is much more reliable than Wikipedia. All sorts of mischief can make it onto a Wikipedia page before it is corrected or closed to non-registered posters.

ClarkFan

I know but still, sad somebody is trying to post that.

[christophulus]

I just checked wikipedia, the title said Felipe died 26th of July 2009 but after refreshed the page, it had disappeared, im serious.

People who post things like that are a waste of oxygen. Any "current event" on Wikipedia needs to be treated with a liberal pinch of salt (thankfully)

[ClarkFan]

I know but still, sad somebody is trying to post that.
Human nature. The percentage of people like that isn't high, but once you have a billion+ people on the Internet even a small percentage becomes a big number. Wikipedia usually thrives on its openness, but sometimes that makes it vulnerable to bad actors.

ClarkFan

[ioan]

I know but still, sad somebody is trying to post that.

The world is full of sickos. Don't try to understand them.

[call_me_andrew]

As to Ralf's crash: The race should have been red flagged because there was carbon fiber debris all over the straightaway.

And the whole notion of the medical car seems outdated. If there's a crash in the last turn, and the car has to follow the path of traffic to reach it, that creates more time for an injured driver to bleed out. And at larger tracks, this becomes an even bigger problem because of the time needed for the car to arrive. I wouldn't say it's required to have one doctor per corner, but I am saying there should be one doctor for every two or three corners.

[BDunnell]

As to Ralf's crash: The race should have been red flagged because there was carbon fiber debris all over the straightaway.

And the whole notion of the medical car seems outdated. If there's a crash in the last turn, and the car has to follow the path of traffic to reach it, that creates more time for an injured driver to bleed out. And at larger tracks, this becomes an even bigger problem because of the time needed for the car to arrive. I wouldn't say it's required to have one doctor per corner, but I am saying there should be one doctor for every two or three corners.

Fair point. I can, however, see the justification for there being one person at the head of the medical response to an incident.

[ClarkFan]

Fair point. I can, however, see the justification for there being one person at the head of the medical response to an incident.
Not for emergency trauma. It is far more important to respond quickly wth trained personnel than get the one ideal person on the case. And in the case of Schumacher's accident, it's not like the IMS safety teams haven't dealt with the consequences of high speed accidents.

ClarkFan

[woody2goody]

In this case, it probably does not matter about the delay making the injuries worse, although if they had used the crane to start jerking the car around with him inside.......

but F1 ever has a crash similar to Zanardi's 2001 crash, the driver will be dead. Even though the race was in Germany, CART still brought enough of their crash team to take the action necessary to save his life despite the fact that his legs and arms were basically crushed or ripped off.

With delayed response today (or that at Indy with RS), Zanardi would have been dead before a proper medical team could have taken the actions necessary to save his life.

You'd think so, but to be honest, as soon as anyone saw that, the doctor's car would be going round the track faster than the other F1 cars. there wouldn't need to be a decision made in that situation. They would put out an immediate red flag.

[ioan]

IMO in every case when the driver doesn't say 'I'm fine!' withing 5 seconds after the accident, they should stop the race, all cars go off line and the ambulance takes the shortest way to the place of the accident.

A human life should have priority over the show and I'm not sure that is the case in F1.

[ioan]

You'd think so, but to be honest, as soon as anyone saw that, the doctor's car would be going round the track faster than the other F1 cars.

No way. Pretty much impossible.

[BobbyC]

A few thoughts:

1. SCCA (the NGO for US club racing) requires as a rule enough ambulances, safety trucks, and other safety vehicles around the circuit at all times. Typically there is a pickup truck with at least two workers located at a course opening at a flagging station. At potential points of major impact, a full ambulance must be in position. For major races, the number of ambulances is drastically increased. In the Hungaroring, I could see at least ten major places where an ambulance could be placed:

1. At the top of the pit straight
2. At the tip of Turn 1.
3. On the runoff road prior to Turn 2 - Works both 2 and 13.
4. The old chicane off Turn 3.
5. Position in Turn 4 outside (this is where Massa's crash took place)
6. Ensuing sweeper.
7. Ensuing esses (works the next two sections)
8. At Turn 9 (works 8, 9, and 10)
9. At Turn 11 (right-hander to straight).
10. At Turn 12 (can work 12 or 14)

One reason the safety car is called in US racing when any car hits a wall and stops is protocol that favours the ambulance. Once the ambulance is on the track, racing must stop because rules will not allow the race to continue with one ambulance missing. Typical protocol for an impact is determined at the point. Usually it's a trip to the track medical centre, then if necessary an ambulance, and helicopter if it's most serious. A safety car period must be extended if a helicopter is used, unless a second helicopter is on site. If a helicopter is called for a competitor, spectator, marshal, or any person on premise, safety car must be called to allow a backup to come.

In the Ralf Schumacher incident, the IMS ambulance is positioned off Turn 12 properly (what is Turn 2 of the oval), engine running. Keep in mind that the pit entrance closes the Short Chute entrance used by IMS safety trucks. Most officials will mandate an ambulance be located at "high risk" points. In the Massa situation race control would have seen the seriousness immediately and the ambulance would almost instantly be called from the Turn 4 point. That would be almost instantaneously and the marshal would learn what happened as soon as the team was working.

By not being assigned to pit lane, but to points of potential severe impact, the travel is quicker.

The local paramedics must attend meetings with the Clerk of the Course, head race marshal, and often other race officials on the week of the race. Keep in mind the local paramedic is familiar with the turbodiesel truck-based ambulance. They are considerably slower than the medical car.

[nigelred5]

Well obviously the medical car was going to drive around the whole track to get there as the accident was in the final corner. It would hardly have been sensible to have the medical car driving in the opposite direction of any oncoming cars.



Whilst that may happen in the US, the fact is that over there every crash leads to the pace car being deployed, meaning that the medical crews can be sent out immediately. However, in F1 that's not the case, meaning that a decision to deploy the safety car has to be taken first and then the field stabilised behind it, before it becomes safe enough to send the medical car out.

And there is NOTING WRONG with that practice. CART had the finest medical response team any racing series has ever had and it's disgusting that a series that tucks more cash in the commercial right olders pockets than some country's entire GNP annually doesn't have even close to such a team that travels with the series. IT isn't the chief medical advisor that is at issue, it's the lack of teams of rapid responders positioned around the track like the CART safety teams. Emergency medical teams rarely have a medical doctor but they are usually far more critical at addressing accident trauma on site and properly extracting and stabilizing an injured person. Most doctors wouldn't have the slightest idea how t oactually extract a person from a severe crash. I'm of the opinion that F1 is woefully negligent in not having such specifically trained teams employed directly by F1 that travel with the series to every race. Local teams can supplement those teams but the present situation is not adequate.

[Dave B]

IMO in every case when the driver doesn't say 'I'm fine!' withing 5 seconds after the accident, they should stop the race, all cars go off line and the ambulance takes the shortest way to the place of the accident.

Never ever ever under any circumstances should any vehicle drive against the direction of traffic on a race circuit. It only takes one driver not to get the signal - or to stupidly ignore it - and you could have a light low-profile race car in collision with a heavy ambulance with a combined speed which doesn't bear thinking about. :s

[Roamy]

I agree with ioan
matter of fact they should display the red flag and then a remote kill switch from the teams is applied within so many seconds.

[Colin_Harvey]

And there is NOTING WRONG with that practice. CART had the finest medical response team any racing series has ever had and it's disgusting that a series that tucks more cash in the commercial right olders pockets than some country's entire GNP annually doesn't have even close to such a team that travels with the series. IT isn't the chief medical advisor that is at issue, it's the lack of teams of rapid responders positioned around the track like the CART safety teams. Emergency medical teams rarely have a medical doctor but they are usually far more critical at addressing accident trauma on site and properly extracting and stabilizing an injured person. Most doctors wouldn't have the slightest idea how t oactually extract a person from a severe crash. I'm of the opinion that F1 is woefully negligent in not having such specifically trained teams employed directly by F1 that travel with the series to every race. Local teams can supplement those teams but the present situation is not adequate.

The response of the CART safety team doesn't look particularly rapid here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p7CgGX80zI

[ioan]

Never ever ever under any circumstances should any vehicle drive against the direction of traffic on a race circuit. It only takes one driver not to get the signal - or to stupidly ignore it - and you could have a light low-profile race car in collision with a heavy ambulance with a combined speed which doesn't bear thinking about. :s

Than stop them all. Have a turn of all engines button at the race command center.

There are so many different possibilities to deal with it, it's just needs a bit of common sense and good will to be implemented, before someone dies again!

[ioan]

The response of the CART safety team doesn't look particularly rapid here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p7CgGX80zI

Still faster than what we saw at Indy with RS.

Anyway the discussion isn't about who's greatest and who has the better whatever.

It's about the need to make F1 better from the safety POV and there is simply no contra argument to trying to save human lives!

[BDunnell]

It's about the need to make F1 better from the safety POV and there is simply no contra argument to trying to save human lives!

Yes there is, in my opinion, and that is the argument — no, not the argument, the fact — that it is impossible to remove every potential element of risk. I'm sure some unimaginative person on here will suggest that this means I want to see people dying, but nothing could be further from the truth. I'm simply stating that there is no way, as with every danger in life, that any possible form of fatal accident in F1 can be prevented from happening.

Furthermore, is anyone else as irritated by the (inevitable, I know) comparisons being made, and not just by the media but also the likes of Rubens Barrichello, between the Massa accident and the crash that killed Henry Surtees? As far as I can work out, any similarities are utterly, and awfully, coincidental. I don't think these two freak accidents occurring within a week of each other needs to serve as a 'wake-up call'. Had the two incidents been identical, then yes, there would probably be a wider message, but despite the fact that both involved a driver being hit on the head by a loose object I cannot see how they are linked. Others have stated, surely correctly, that it is impossible to effectively prevent wheels coming off open-wheeled cars. I would suggest that it is also impossible to prevent all other potentially damaging objects coming off open-wheeled cars.

[Dave B]

... comparisons being made, and not just by the media but also the likes of Rubens Barrichello, between the Massa accident and the crash that killed Henry Surtees? As far as I can work out, any similarities are utterly, and awfully, coincidental. I don't think these two freak accidents occurring within a week of each other needs to serve as a 'wake-up call'.
:up:

I admire Rubens, and I feel for him in this situation. Massa's his friend, and he must feel some responsibility for the accident - even though it was a freak incident which Barrichello was powerless to prevent. As a deeply spiritual and religious man, Rubens probably does think of this as some sort of "sign". I don't blame him for speaking out, but he needs to take a deep breath and do his best to keep emotion out of it.

[BDunnell]

I admire Rubens, and I feel for him in this situation.

Yes, me too — and also Ross Brawn.

[Dave B]

You know, this comes on top of Rubens saying that 5% of him doesn't want to be in the sport any more. When a driver starts talking in those terms it usually means a short step to retirement. I wonder if this incident will be the straw that breaks Rubens' back. I genuinely hope not.

[ioan]

Yes there is, in my opinion, and that is the argument — no, not the argument, the fact — that it is impossible to remove every potential element of risk.


What kind of sick argument is this?
What you are saying is deeply disturbing.

Just because you can't cover every potential situation that may arise it doesn't mean that you should not try to improve safety.

Can you imagine yourself on the motorway with another few hundred cars but with same safety levels as back in the 50's?!
Can you imagine how many dead people would be on the streets every day if that was the case?

Safety is the most important thing when talking about automotive products and we benefit from it every single time we sit in a modern car, bus etc, to the extent that we come up with ignorant comments like yours. :\

PS: Do you also believe that wars are a good thing and we shouldn't do our best to get rid of them?

[ioan]

You know, this comes on top of Rubens saying that 5% of him doesn't want to be in the sport any more. When a driver starts talking in those terms it usually means a short step to retirement. I wonder if this incident will be the straw that breaks Rubens' back. I genuinely hope not.

I fully understand him.
Just imagine that a part from your car would be responsible for what happened yesterday and this only because they are racing for the show.
I would certainly feel very bad, to the point of having 99% of me wanting to stop doing it.

[Dave B]

What kind of sick argument is this?
What you are saying is deeply disturbing.

It's notable that Ben predicted this kind of response arising from a misinterpretation of his post :s

Maybe the wise words of Kimi Raikkonen put it best:



"It is just an unlucky situation what happened today," he said. "It could have happened two years ago, or it could happen five years ago.

"The cars have an open cockpit so there is always the chance that something can hit it. It is not the first time that someone has been hit and unfortunately sometimes drivers get very badly hurt or die. It is part of the risk in motor racing. For sure Felipe was very unlucky today and hopefully will be okay, but you cannot get rid of that issue.

"You would need to make a rule for a bullet proof window in front of you to get rid of that issue. It is just unfortunate that these things happen sometimes."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77280

[ioan]

Furthermore, is anyone else as irritated by the (inevitable, I know) comparisons being made, and not just by the media but also the likes of Rubens Barrichello, between the Massa accident and the crash that killed Henry Surtees? As far as I can work out, any similarities are utterly, and awfully, coincidental.

Coincidental?!

Is it a coincidence that both drivers had serious head injuries because they were hit by heavy parts that got lose from a competitors car?!

No it isn't and this happened because the cars do not offer any kind of protection to the most vital part of the human body, the head.

Do we need 3, 4, 5 ...10 more drivers to die from head injuries (most common cause of death in motorsports) before we admit it isn't a coincidence?

They should have a protective screen all around the cockpit. Last time I checked this wasn't a problem with racing powerboats so why should it be a problem in F1?

[ioan]

It's notable that Ben predicted this kind of response arising from a misinterpretation of his post :s

That's exactly what makes me feel sick about it.




Maybe the wise words of Kimi Raikkonen put it best:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77280

Each to his own. Some of the drivers have a family and kids, some don't.
Some love their family more than racing, some don't.

I don't see why his words would be any wiser than those of Barrichello in this instance.

[ShiftingGears]

I totally agree with Kimi's comment.

It's also worth pointing out that the safest alternative for the drivers is not to have closed cockpits - it's to not race at all.

[ioan]

I totally agree with Kimi's comment.

I agree with him too, about the part where he states the solution that exists for such events not to happen again.

[ShiftingGears]

I agree with him too, about the part where he states the solution that exists for such events not to happen again.

For me it sounds like he simply accepts the risks involved in motor racing, as they will always be there.

[ioan]

For me it sounds like he simply accepts the risks involved in motor racing, as they will always be there.

I understand what he said.
It's just that I'm not the kind of person who says: 'that's life!' and than accept everything that's coming to me.

[LiamM]

Having thought about this for a while, the only complaint I have was the marshals didn't get really close to the car quickly enough. None of them went to, for example look in Felipe's eyes if possible, or talk to him.

I think most of us could tell it was potentially serious, mostly because of his head not moving. The response could have been better, but in hindsight not as much as I first thought.

Sorry if this has been brought up before, I've skimmed the whole thread and not seen it yet.

But we must remember the Ferrari runs KERS, so any marshall approaching the car has to assess whether it id safe for him to touch the car first. I believe on the Ferrari this is done by the use of a green light in front of the driver - which was buried in the tyre wall to start off with.

[Dave B]

I understand what he said.
It's just that I'm not the kind of person who says: 'that's life!' and than accept everything that's coming to me.
Understandable, but a single-seater racing driver voluntarily accepts the risks involved. That doesn't mean it's in any way acceptable for them to be injured or worse, but they always have the free choice to walk away. Kimi's comments show that he understands that; Massa no doubt understands that too.

Nothing in life is 100% safe, and nor can it ever be. That doesn't mean that we should give up trying to improve safety standards, but over-reactions aren't helpful to anybody.

[ArrowsFA1]

Just because you can't cover every potential situation that may arise it doesn't mean that you should not try to improve safety.
Absolutely, but whatever measures are taken to improve safety there can be no absolute guarantees.

How can anyone legislate against 1) a component failure, as we saw yesterday, which led to 2) that component being on the track then 3) being struck by a following car, and worse, 4) the drivers helmet?

[woody2goody]

Absolutely, but whatever measures are taken to improve safety there can be no absolute guarantees.

How can anyone legislate against 1) a component failure, as we saw yesterday, which led to 2) that component being on the track then 3) being struck by a following car, and worse, 4) the drivers helmet?

It is an unlikely event, and it, thankfully, requires a very specific set of circumstances which are about as likely as winning the lottery.

[BDunnell]

Absolutely, but whatever measures are taken to improve safety there can be no absolute guarantees.

How can anyone legislate against 1) a component failure, as we saw yesterday, which led to 2) that component being on the track then 3) being struck by a following car, and worse, 4) the drivers helmet?

Or, indeed, for a component or piece of bodywork to cause a fatal accident by some means other than hitting the driver on the head.

I must confess to having no idea what those who believe attempts should be made to try and eliminate every potential risk are suggesting should happen. It's like trying to eliminate every potential risk of terrorism — it is impossible and counter-productive. The only way of ensuring that nobody could ever be hurt or killed by terrorists would be to prevent everybody from ever leaving their houses. As I said before, the only way of making F1 entirely safe is not to race. Those are the facts. There is no need for hand-wringing or an overly emotional reaction. Such things very rarely produce worthwhile results.

[ioan]

It is an unlikely event, and it, thankfully, requires a very specific set of circumstances which are about as likely as winning the lottery.

Twice within 7 days looks to be a bit ore often than winning the lottery.

[BeansBeansBeans]

The fact that a driver can survive being hit in the face by a metallic component at upwards of 150mph, carry on unabated into the barrier, and seemingly survive, is a testament to the safety of F1.

As for changes to be made - It's important to investigate, but equally important to avoid knee-jerk reactions. As Ross Brawn says, the idea of a canopy appears the most obvious, but that would bring with it other problems - Will it cause delays in extricating injured drivers from upturned cars? Could it collapse in on the driver?...etc

[BeansBeansBeans]

Alonso's wheel has come off. That's the last thing the sport needed after the events of last week. Luckily, it seems to have bounced out of harms way.

[ioan]

Another flying wheel. Luckily no one was there to collect it full speed.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Why why why did I not put that tenner on Lewis at 10-1? :(

[nigelred5]

I don't know whether F1 should take lessons from there, a country which has no road courses (outside Indy) which are up to international safety standards.
That is rubbish. We have the finest emergency medical response system in the world. I'm actually a member of the shock trauma system of the university of Maryland. The prototype and world standard emergency response system.

[BeansBeansBeans]

That is rubbish. We have the finest emergency medical response system in the world. I'm actually a member of the shock trauma system of the university of Maryland. The prototype and world standard emergency response system.

I think he meant that the circuits themselves (other than Indy) don't meet with the FIA's requirements for holding Grands Prix. Only two circuits in England do, to be fair.

I recently read Dr. Steve Olvey's book and have no doubt that US indycar racing is second to none in terms of trauma response.

[BDunnell]

Twice within 7 days looks to be a bit ore often than winning the lottery.

But does not indicate an overall problem, because the two incidents were not the same. Had wheels fallen off more than one F1 car in similar circumstances in the same race, that to me would indicate a problem worth examining. However, a wheel falling off a car in a Formula 2 race and a spring coming off an F1 car hardly fall into that category.

[nigelred5]

The response of the CART safety team doesn't look particularly rapid here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p7CgGX80zI

8 years ago, CART continually improved response after just such an incident. I suggest taking the response to the Zanardi incinent demonstrated how qualified the Cart team was. I'd add that bridge also no longer exists.

I have less issue with the efforts at making the f1 cars and tracks safe as I do with their reactions to such an incident. It could be improved dramatically. Obviously that turn gas adequate runoff and crash vattenuation as the ferrari was relatively unscathed for such a high speed crash. Open cockpit cars are simply always going to have some level of danger for just this type of incident.open top Canopies could workcas they do in offshore racing but they do present additional hazards in the event of an overturned car

[ioan]

But does not indicate an overall problem...

Depends on the POV.
From my POV it shows that the drivers head is way to exposed and that lose objects that hit their helmet will result in severe injury or death. If you say this isn't a problem than you are denying reality.

[ioan]

Canopies could workcas they do in offshore racing but they do present additional hazards in the event of an overturned car

Exactly why?

[BeansBeansBeans]

Depends on the POV.
From my POV it shows that the drivers head is way to exposed and that lose objects that hit their helmet will result in severe injury or death. If you say this isn't a problem than you are denying reality.

I wouldn't say it was a problem, more an acceptable risk.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Exactly why?

It could prevent a driver from escaping an upturned car, without his vehicle first being righted. This could cause fatal delays in the event of a fire, for instance.

I agree with you that a canopy is worthy of investigation, but there is no easy answer and no guaranteed way to stop death and serious injury occuring occasionally in motorsport.

[BDunnell]

Depends on the POV.
From my POV it shows that the drivers head is way to exposed and that lose objects that hit their helmet will result in severe injury or death. If you say this isn't a problem than you are denying reality.

If I want to see racing involving cars in which the driver has a roof over their head, I will watch sportscars or touring cars. The risk of a driver being hit on the head by something is, in reality, so small as to make such a fundamental change to the nature of F1 as introducing a canopy or roof unnecessary, and that has nothing to do with denying reality.

[ioan]

The risk of a driver being hit on the head by something is, in reality, so small ...

Yeah, twice in 7 days, one dead the other one just had brain surgery. :rolleyes:

I wonder what you would say if it was someone from your family involved in such accident? Would you still deny the obvious?



If I want to see racing involving cars in which the driver has a roof over their head, I will watch sportscars or touring cars.

So you rather watch cars with open tops even if it means people will die or have permanent handicaps as a result?

I'll go as far as saying that it's because people like you, who consider that safety precautions are useless as they can't prevent all the accidents, that not enough measure are taken to get rid of these accidents

[BeansBeansBeans]

Yeah, twice in 7 days, one dead the other one just had brain surgery. :rolleyes:

I wonder what you would say if it was someone from your family involved in such accident? Would you still deny the obvious?

I'll go as far as saying that it's because people like you, who consider that safety precautions are useless as they can't prevent all the accidents, that not enough measure are taken to get rid of these accidents.

You're being hysterical.

[ioan]

You're being hysterical.

Not at all.
I just put life ahead of the show, something you apparently can't understand.

[Garry Walker]

You're being hysterical.

He is yes. Okay, an accident happened to his favourite driver, but one should not go totally insane at once.

As expected, this freak accident has some people going crazy and demanding big changes, forgetting that racing is dangerous and such accidents are very rare, but yes, they will happen. You cannot be completely safe in racing.
The ideas dished out by some after this accident show how far from racing some fans are.

If auto racing is too much for you, if it is too dangerous for you, maybe you should consider watching swimming or ballet.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Not at all.
I just put life ahead of the show, something you apparently can't understand.

It isn't that simple.

[ShiftingGears]

He is yes. Okay, an accident happened to his favourite driver, but one should not go totally insane at once.

As expected, this freak accident has some people going crazy and demanding big changes, forgetting that racing is dangerous and such accidents are very rare, but yes, they will happen. You cannot be completely safe in racing.
The ideas dished out by some after this accident show how far from racing some fans are.

If auto racing is too much for you, if it is too dangerous for you, maybe you should consider watching swimming or ballet.

Agreed.

[BDunnell]

He is yes. Okay, an accident happened to his favourite driver, but one should not go totally insane at once.

As expected, this freak accident has some people going crazy and demanding big changes, forgetting that racing is dangerous and such accidents are very rare, but yes, they will happen. You cannot be completely safe in racing.
The ideas dished out by some after this accident show how far from racing some fans are.

If auto racing is too much for you, if it is too dangerous for you, maybe you should consider watching swimming or ballet.

For once, Garry, I couldn't agree more with you. Very well put indeed.

[BDunnell]

Yeah, twice in 7 days, one dead the other one just had brain surgery. :rolleyes:

I wonder what you would say if it was someone from your family involved in such accident? Would you still deny the obvious?




So you rather watch cars with open tops even if it means people will die or have permanent handicaps as a result?

I'll go as far as saying that it's because people like you, who consider that safety precautions are useless as they can't prevent all the accidents, that not enough measure are taken to get rid of these accidents

ioan, your comments have become utterly impossible to take seriously.

[nigelred5]

I think he meant that the circuits themselves (other than Indy) don't meet with the FIA's requirements for holding Grands Prix. Only two circuits in England do, to be fair.

I recently read Dr. Steve Olvey's book and have no doubt that US indycar racing is second to none in terms of trauma response.

granted, but find me another country the size of the US that has as many tracks that do have nore than one that IS. I'd argue that several would meet that standard had they chosen to be. Most do meet the standard below GP standards and I'd suggest that several existing F1 circuits are still more dangerous than many of the road courses in the US.

[Garry Walker]

ioan, your comments have become utterly impossible to take seriously.

Unfortunately so it is.
theugsquirrel and Bdunnel - I appreciate support.

[markabilly]

He is yes. Okay, an accident happened to his favourite driver, but one should not go totally insane at once.

As expected, this freak accident has some people going crazy and demanding big changes, forgetting that racing is dangerous and such accidents are very rare, but yes, they will happen. You cannot be completely safe in racing.
The ideas dished out by some after this accident show how far from racing some fans are.

If auto racing is too much for you, if it is too dangerous for you, maybe you should consider watching swimming or ballet.

Yes you are so right!!

Those whiners about safety have no business in the sport, and neither do helmets and all that other crap, like safety cars, crash testing cars before they race (if they need crashing a perfectly fine race car to see how they hold up, not too worry, sooner or later they will do that on the track, so we can see it then), too much stuff around the cockpit now, all this caution stuff spoiling a great race.

No sir no swimming for me!!!


gee I can hardly wait until Hamilton has a big one and ends up all battered and broken in the hospital or dead!! And Kimi, Button, too!!!

Whoopee

As i said elsewhere at the first can am race in 67 I went to as a boy, the big names there were andretti (who did not make the race) Bruce, Hulme, Revson, Donahue, Hall, Gurney, Surtees. 8 drivers and revson, donahue and bruce would die behind the wheel, and Hall would barely surve a massive crash at las vegas and seriously race no more......talk about random musical chairs and fun at silly season.

[nigelred5]

Exactly why?

Ever been upside down in a glass canopy pinned against the ground? I
m not saying it can't be made to work, I'm just saying it brings with it other issues with escaping a car and driver comfort. I would submit that they can not even consider a fully enclosed cockpit the size of an F1 car for temperature reasons. A cage wouldn't have protected Filipe, however it would have likely prevented Surtees injury.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

He is yes. Okay, an accident happened to his favourite driver, but one should not go totally insane at once.

As expected, this freak accident has some people going crazy and demanding big changes, forgetting that racing is dangerous and such accidents are very rare, but yes, they will happen. You cannot be completely safe in racing.
The ideas dished out by some after this accident show how far from racing some fans are.

If auto racing is too much for you, if it is too dangerous for you, maybe you should consider watching swimming or ballet.

:up:

+1

[markabilly]

Yes you are so right!!

Those whiners about safety have no business in the sport, and neither do helmets and all that other crap, like safety cars, crash testing cars before they race (if they need crashing a perfectly fine race car to see how they hold up, not too worry, sooner or later they will do that on the track, so we can see it then), too much stuff around the cockpit now, all this caution stuff spoiling a great race.

No sir no swimming for me!!!


gee I can hardly wait until Hamilton has a big one and ends up all battered and broken in the hospital or dead!! And Kimi, Button, too!!!

Whoopee

As i said elsewhere at the first can am race in 67 I went to as a boy, the big names there were andretti (who did not make the race) Bruce, Hulme, Revson, Donahue, Hall, Gurney, Surtees. 8 drivers and revson, donahue and bruce would die behind the wheel, and Hall would barely surve a massive crash at las vegas and seriously race no more......talk about random musical chairs and fun at silly season.


And even more fun would be a repeat of what at monaco with bandini. Dead because of incompetent, slow responses and piss poor fire fighting.

so hey we don't need no more stinking expensive improvements, it is already as bad as swimming and ballet :up: :up:

[ioan]

It isn't that simple.

Oh yes it is. A human life is invaluable.

[ioan]

ioan, your comments have become utterly impossible to take seriously.

Like if I care about what you think. given what you expressed in your previous posts I hereby announce you that I do not wish to be addressed by you anymore.

[ioan]

Ever been upside down in a glass canopy pinned against the ground? I
m not saying it can't be made to work, I'm just saying it brings with it other issues with escaping a car and driver comfort. I would submit that they can not even consider a fully enclosed cockpit the size of an F1 car for temperature reasons. A cage wouldn't have protected Filipe, however it would have likely prevented Surtees injury.

They do have a roll bar that is some 40 cms above the drivers head, a rolled car can not trap the driver as long as he is conscious and can move his limbs.
The raised cockpit sides also need to be taken off in order to easily get out of the car, but no one is saying this is life threatening.

[ioan]

And even more fun would be a repeat of what at monaco with bandini. Dead because of incompetent, slow responses and piss poor fire fighting.

so hey we don't need no more stinking expensive improvements, it is already as bad as swimming and ballet :up: :up:

It looks like we are pissing against the wind with everyone around here being more than happy with the state of safety in F1. :\

They are afraid that if the cars will have a protecting canopy for the driver's head or if there will be an ambulance stationed at every 2nd turn they will not be able to enjoy watching racing on their HD TV sets.

What a pitiful state is the humanity in nowadays?!

[Easy Drifter]

I actually think that the helmet stood up to the hit remarkably well. Part of what was hit was the face shield which is lexan. I do not know of any product that could better withstand a hit any better, that you can see through.
Again a bubble shield over the cockpit would likely be Lexan and I suspect the spring would have penetrated it, but probably not the helmet as well. Against this a cockpit bubble shield could very well present problem in driver extraction. An object as heavy as a wheel assembly would demolish a cockpit bubble capsule anyway.
Vision is another feature to consider. Oil and other debris would likely obscure a drivers vision. Consider how many tear-offs the drivers use. Keeping it clear in rain would be another problem. Adding wipers would almost be required.
I am not saying it is impossible just that there are many facets to explore and what appears to be a simple solution may not be.
If that spring had hit a suspension component it would have destroyed same. A hit on any semi flat surface of the car would likely have resulted in penetration.
The chances of an errant component, other than a wheel assembly, hitting someone in the face are very unlikely to occur again. Not impossible but unlikely.
Drivers have been killed when hitting birds, many years ago. Stray animals are always a possibility.
There is no logical way you can make a driver's compartment strong enough to withstand a direct hit from a wheel assembly without a complete roll cage.
It may come to that together with a canopy like a jet fighter's.
The one thing not needed is a knee jerk reaction that creates more problems than it solves.
Again comparing the Surtees accident to the Massa one is comparing apples to oranges.
There will always be components falling off race cars, often as a result of an earlier collision.
Drivers know the risks involved. Safety has come a long way, trackwise, carwise, driver equipment and medical.
There is always room for improvement but uninformed knee jerk reaction is the last thing needed.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Of course we should never stop looking at ways to make the sport safer, but isn't the risk of motorsport part of the thrill for the competitors? Motor Racing has always been gladiatorial. To all the kids who have ambitions to be in F1 the drivers are their heroes who risk their lives to prove that they are the fastest.

[ioan]

There is always room for improvement but uninformed knee jerk reaction is the last thing needed.

I agree with this, but well thought measures need to be taken even if plenty of people seem to think that safety shouldn't be improved at all because they are afraid that it would diminish their pleasure while they are watching their shiny TV sets.

[ioan]

Of course we should never stop looking at ways to make the sport safer, but isn't the risk of motorsport part of the thrill for the competitors?

I doubt that they are thrilled about the risk of death they are running. maybe they accept the risks because they do not understand it before they get a really serious accident.

Did C. da Matta ever drive an open top car after he spent months in coma because of brain injury?

[markabilly]

There is always room for improvement but uninformed knee jerk reaction is the last thing needed.
In 2004, RS crashed at Indy. And if I had not sat there witnessing the incompetent response, maybe I would be like Dunnel

During this 5 year time period, no substantive improvements have been made in response time nor ability to respond.
Max said the same thing about the need for improvement, just knee jerks from the uninformed, too expensive, already got the best doc in the world driving around in a mercedes......

hey, mercedes probably does not even make an ambulance and they probably pay bernie well for the privilege.

Meanwhile even poor ole IRL puts FIA in the shade in this area.......



The hans device was around for years, used by some but not mandated until the death of Dale Earnhardt, and suddenly CART, F1, Nascar and so forth decided it should be mandated.

If mandated in 1990 and on, Roland Ratzenberger might stilll be alive, mika's injuries might not have been nearly so severe, Dale, Greg Moore, and many others might still be alive

So following this demonstrated practice and the attitude of some around here, (not including you, Easy) I suppose some very famous driver will need to die as a direct result of inadequate response before something is done.

[BDunnell]

Like if I care about what you think. given what you expressed in your previous posts I hereby announce you that I do not wish to be addressed by you anymore.

ioan, I will address you if I want to. If you do not wish to be addressed by others, then don't post.

I have just finished watching the British Moto GP round. Do you believe that motorcycle racing should be banned for being too dangerous, or that the riders should have more bodywork around them? After all, that is the natural continuation of your view on improving safety. What about historic motor racing — should this be banned for being unsafe? I would suggest that the night-time bit of the Le Mans 24 Hours is probably rather hazardous. Should they race in daylight only? You say you think every step possible should be taken to make motorsport completely safe. Should rally stages avoid anywhere with trees? Again, this is what your policy on the matter would bring about were it to be applied. It is simply nonsensical, and the vast majority of true, genuine motorsport enthusiasts, while not wishing to see injuries or deaths, would surely agree.

[ioan]

ioan, I will address you if I want to.

Sorry, I stopped reading here.

[ioan]

In 2004, RS crashed at Indy. And if I had not sat there witnessing the incompetent response, maybe I would be like Dunnel

During this 5 year time period, no substantive improvements have been made in response time nor ability to respond.
Max said the same thing about the need for improvement, just knee jerks from the uninformed, too expensive, already got the best doc in the world driving around in a mercedes......

hey, mercedes probably does not even make an ambulance and they probably pay bernie well for the privilege.

Meanwhile even poor ole IRL puts FIA in the shade in this area.......



The hans device was around for years, used by some but not mandated until the death of Dale Earnhardt, and suddenly CART, F1, Nascar and so forth decided it should be mandated.

If mandated in 1990 and on, Roland Ratzenberger might stilll be alive, mika's injuries might not have been nearly so severe, Dale, Greg Moore, and many others might still be alive

So following this demonstrated practice and the attitude of some around here, (not including you, Easy) I suppose some very famous driver will need to die as a direct result of inadequate response before something is done.

This sums it up pretty well.

[woody2goody]

I doubt that they are thrilled about the risk of death they are running. maybe they accept the risks because they do not understand it before they get a really serious accident.

Did C. da Matta ever drive an open top car after he spent months in coma because of brain injury?

He's been in a Daytona Prototype, which I think are covered.

He was hit by a damn deer, he's lucky to survive.

[christophulus]

The big question is, what can be done? Close the cockpits and you probably make it more dangerous 90% of the time, especially if the car rolls or catches fire. And it'd have to be immensely strong to prevent any crush damage.

The only truly safe way is not to race at all. The drivers know the risks and no one forces them to race. What happened to Massa was shocking but I really don't think anything can practically be done to prevent this happening.

[markabilly]

did a little research

the hans device was around in the 1980's. In 1989, using crash sleds, the device was reducing the force of a forward impact at high speed by 80%.

nevertheless, it took the death of Earnhardt in 2001.

And I am not someone who is saying racing is not dangerous, but gee when you are 10 years or more behind CART and all the rest........

[ioan]

He's been in a Daytona Prototype, which I think are covered.

He was hit by a damn deer, he's lucky to survive.

Exactly my point. he will never ever drive a topless car in his life because of his accident. Anyone might try hard to convince him about the opposite, i doubt they will manage to change his mind.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Do any of us on here believe that the possibility of death and serious injury can ever be completely eliminated from motorsport?

[ioan]

The big question is, what can be done? Close the cockpits and you probably make it more dangerous 90% of the time, especially if the car rolls or catches fire.

As I said, the raised cockpit sides need to be removed to, and it's easily done, why would it be more difficult with a canopy?!

[ioan]

Do any of us on here believe that the possibility of death and serious injury can ever be completely eliminated from motorsport?

No. But it can be drastically reduced. Every saved life is one more person alive, it's kids who will have a parent and so on!

[BDunnell]

did a little research

the hans device was around in the 1980's. In 1989, using crash sleds, the device was reducing the force of a forward impact at high speed by 80%.

nevertheless, it took the death of Earnhardt in 2001.

And I am not someone who is saying racing is not dangerous, but gee when you are 10 years or more behind CART and all the rest........

We are talking about one freak accident here — a freak accident that could only have been realistically prevented by not driving an open-cockpit car, which would not then be F1 racing as we know it, and an absurd over-reaction to an isolated incident. An innovation such as HANS as a means of minimising the risk of injury or worse in the type of accident that can occur regularly is to be welcomed. Introducing an enclosed cockpit in order to prevent injury or death in the sort of accident that occurs once in a blue moon, in a sport in which all sorts of other unavoidable accidents can and will also occur, is totally unnecessary. F1 is not about cars with cockpits. Sportscars, to some extent, and touring cars are — F1, no.

[BeansBeansBeans]

No. But it can be drastically reduced.

It has been drastically reduced, and I'm sure it can be reduced further, but not infinitely so.

I still don't think yesterday's unfortunate incident deserved the hysterical response you and others have given it. ie - F1 safety sucks -> We need canopies now -> If you disagree you're inhuman.

[BDunnell]

Do any of us on here believe that the possibility of death and serious injury can ever be completely eliminated from motorsport?

Those that do are being utterly, almost absurdly, unrealistic.

[christophulus]

As I said, the raised cockpit sides need to be removed to, and it's easily done, why would it be more difficult with a canopy?!

A canopy would replace one problem with another. Say the car rolls and catches fire, the quick-release mechanism on the protective canopy fails and the driver is trapped? Say the canopy flies off during the race and goes into the crowd?

Those scenarios are just as plausible as being hit by a piece of debris, and I think any knee-jerk reaction to a one in a million accident would be irresponsible.

[BeansBeansBeans]

The HANS device is excellent. It saves lives, has no obvious drawbacks and can be implemented without making fundamental changes to the sport. Still, it's worth pointing out that Earnhardt always refused to wear one, referring to it as the 'noose'.

[BDunnell]

No. But it can be drastically reduced. Every saved life is one more person alive, it's kids who will have a parent and so on!

ioan, why not address some of the points at issue here rather than being over-emotional. Look at some of the deaths in rallying, like that of Michael Park. Improving the side impact protection of rally cars is perfectly acceptable as a reaction to something like that. Banning stages from taking place on tree-lined forest roads would not be acceptable, yet that would be a failsafe method of avoiding deaths similar to that of Michael Park, which is the natural extension of your view on F1 safety — that every measure possible should be taken to prevent deaths or injuries. Do that, and the essential character of all motorsports would be still further diluted.

And those of us who disagree with your opinion do not deserve to be labelled as people who enjoy seeing drivers being injured or killed.

[ioan]

Say the car rolls and catches fire, the quick-release mechanism on the protective canopy fails and the driver is trapped?

What if the seat belt quick release mechanism fails when the car catches fire?!
maybe we should not use seat belts from now on as they will trap the driver.

Honestly, do you think that the canopy needs to have a very complicate release mechanism?
There's plenty of systems they could use that could hold that canopy on the cockpit and be very easy to break if force from inside the cockpit is used.



Say the canopy flies off during the race and goes into the crowd?

If it has the right shape you would be hard pressed to make it lift while car is rolling.

[ioan]

The HANS device is excellent. It saves lives, has no obvious drawbacks and can be implemented without making fundamental changes to the sport.

This aspect about fundamental changes to the sport shouldn't be on the list of important aspects when it comes to safety.

[BDunnell]

What if the seat belt quick release mechanism fails when the car catches fire?!
maybe we should not use seat belts from now on as they will trap the driver.

There is absolutely no comparison to be made there. Seatbelts prevent death or injury occurring in a whole range of accidents that occur regularly. A canopy would prevent death or injury occurring in one type of accident that barely ever occurs.

[BDunnell]

This aspect about fundamental changes to the sport shouldn't be on the list of important aspects when it comes to safety.

So you would not object to F1 not being an open-wheel formula if it helped safety? You would not object to rallies not taking place in forests, or Le Mans not running through the night, if it meant that one person might not be killed at some indeterminate point?

[savage86]

I’ve read the first two and last four pages of this thread, no one has yet mentioned as far as I can tell, simply working to make helmets and especially the way the visors connect much stronger.

I’m not even sure a closed or shield of some kind could have saved Henry’s life. Massa on the other hand a stronger Visor and attachment may have helped. Obviously drivers visors are there to be strong, but also for ease of use like tear offs and not steaming up. More simply needs to be looked into for saftey.
Motorsport can never be safe, when I go Karting at 80mph plus with no seatbelts I know the risks, so do the F1 drivers, no need to go all nanny state on them.

[christophulus]

What if the seat belt quick release mechanism fails when the car catches fire?!
maybe we should not use seat belts from now on as they will trap the driver.

Honestly, do you think that the canopy needs to have a very complicate release mechanism?
There's plenty of systems they could use that could hold that canopy on the cockpit and be very easy to break if force from inside the cockpit is used.

If it has the right shape you would be hard pressed to make it lift while car is rolling.

The point I am making is that there is never going to be a car that is 100% safe 100% of the time. Two weeks ago, would we have been sitting here discussing the possibility of a driver being struck on the head by a piece of debris? Probably not, as it is an extremely rare occurrence. So I think we need to just step back and ask if the benefits of an open car outweigh the risks.

A canopy would be "good" for some accidents and "bad" in others - the same can be said of an open cockpit.

[ioan]

The point I am making is that there is never going to be a car that is 100% safe 100% of the time.

And the point I'm making is that we should still strive to make it as safe as possible instead of just saying it can't be safe enough.

[christophulus]

And the point I'm making is that we should still strive to make it as safe as possible instead of just saying it can't be safe enough.

I agree completely with that point - but I disagree that an enclosed cockpit is the way forward. It should be looked at and evaluated but I just don't think it would improve safety above what we have at the moment.

[Josti]

Why not just install ejection seats! :rolleyes:

I agree that we should strive for the best safety as possible, but your points, ioan, seems to come from an overly emotional reaction.

[Dave B]

Oh yes it is [that simple]. A human life is invaluable.
Then let's ban any dangerous sports. Motorsport, obviously, because we can never make that 100.0% safe. Then rugby, skiing, football, sailing, hang-gliding, clearly; then curling (those brushes are bloody dangerous) and ping-pong (those balls can be slippery little buggers if you ingest them).

Come on ioan. Nobody here is saying that the incidents shouldn't be examined to see what lessons can be learned; nobody is saying that they want to watch a sport where people are routinely injured; but pointless knee-jerk over-reactions solve nothing.

[AndyRAC]

Motorsport is Dangerous!

There is only so much that can be done, and as long as everything possible is done to make it as safe as can be reasonably expected, I'm not sure what else can be done.
We can always keep reviewing procedures etc but short of stopping the sport there will always be 'freak' accidents.

[ioan]

Why not just install ejection seats! :rolleyes:

I agree that we should strive for the best safety as possible, but your points, ioan, seems to come from an overly emotional reaction.

Really. I wonder from what do your points come? A lack of understanding what life is?

[BDunnell]

Really. I wonder from what do your points come? A lack of understanding what life is?

Those who believe that it is possible to eliminate every potential risk from life have, I would suggest, a lack of understanding of life themselves.

[ioan]

There is only so much that can be done...

How much?



and as long as everything possible is done

Define 'everything possible is done' in this context.



to make it as safe as can be reasonably expected,

Is it reasonable to expect no more life losses? I think it is.
What about no more permanent handicaps? I think it is reasonable.



I'm not sure what else can be done.

Much more can be done.
Science evolves every minute. new engineering processes and materials are developed.
New safety procedures are implemented everywhere.

All these need to be implemented on a weekly basis for improving safety in motorsports.

[ioan]

Those who believe that it is possible to eliminate every potential risk from life have, I would suggest, a lack of understanding of life themselves.

Or maybe they put a huge price on life and know that you can't reverse the loss of it.

[ioan]

Come on ioan. Nobody here is saying that the incidents shouldn't be examined to see what lessons can be learned; nobody is saying that they want to watch a sport where people are routinely injured; but pointless knee-jerk over-reactions solve nothing.

To be honest there are quite a few people who are saying that it's OK as it is and we should leave at it, and this is what I can't accept.

[markabilly]

To be honest there are quite a few people who are saying that it's OK as it is and we should leave at it, and this is what I can't accept.

Me neither, but i will admit to mixed emotions.

My fav all time F1 car, one that I nearly bought for about $20k in the 1970's but it had no engine, wanted it very bad, don't know what i would have done with it at the time, did not really have the cash, was and remains the lotus type 49 espe the non-wing "gold" paint job or the Walker paint job.

Simple car, front radiator connected to a egg shell chassis, front wheel attached, radiator pipes on the outside, engine tied on to the back of the chassis that end as the engine began, and exposed, rear wheels attached to the back of the engine and transmission---A roll bar way too low for even the likes of Jim Clark---like why even have it???

did not handle all that well at first.
even now I would take that over any other f1 car.

Love motogp and motor race bikes---like many of the great riders, gave up on street riding as TOO DANGEROUS compared to racing on a track.

wish i still raced the bikes, wish i could have raced the lotus or any of its competitors.

But when people just sit around and go on about safety issues, saying, "well that is just knee jerk-off, dumb butt pundits with a keyboard," I do go all red.

And then when the same folks cry about massa or other drivers getting hurt, my feeling about them is [insert numerous and many obscenities and curse words]

Unlike many (who i wonder watch to see wrecks and stuff), I watch racing to live vicariously, remembering what it was like, the rush of hitting a corner just right, being in the zone.

[BDunnell]

Me neither, but i will admit to mixed emotions.

My fav all time F1 car, one that I nearly bought for about $20k in the 1970's but it had no engine, wanted it very bad, don't know what i would have done with it at the time, did not really have the cash, was and remains the lotus type 49 espe the non-wing "gold" paint job or the Walker paint job.

Simple car, front radiator connected to a egg shell chassis, front wheel attached, radiator pipes on the outside, engine tied on to the back of the chassis that end as the engine began, and exposed, rear wheels attached to the back of the engine and transmission---A roll bar way too low for even the likes of Jim Clark---like why even have it???

did not handle all that well at first.
even now I would take that over any other f1 car.

Love motogp and motor race bikes---like many of the great riders, gave up on street riding as TOO DANGEROUS compared to racing on a track.

wish i still raced the bikes, wish i could have raced the lotus or any of its competitors.

But when people just sit around and go on about safety issues, saying, "well that is just knee jerk-off, dumb butt pundits with a keyboard," I do go all red.

And then when the same folks cry about massa or other drivers getting hurt, my feeling about them is [insert numerous and many obscenities and curse words]

Unlike many (who i wonder watch to see wrecks and stuff), I watch racing to live vicariously, remembering what it was like, the rush of hitting a corner just right, being in the zone.

Wanting to see accidents has, as I have said over and over, absolutely nothing to do with it. Not wanting to dilute the sport unnecessarily and recognising the impossibility of removing every single possible risk from life do.

[markabilly]

Wanting to see accidents has, as I have said over and over, absolutely nothing to do with it.
that was a reference to general public, not to anyone around here

[BDunnell]

that was a reference to general public, not to anyone around here

OK, sorry.

[Anubis]

Must admit, when I first read this topic, I thought it was a bit of a rant, but having thought about it, I think the concerns are valid. Having a medical car make a full lap of a circuit that may still be active (if not red flagged) does seem to add unnecessary delays to receiving treatment. Thinking back to Ralf's accident, I thought "what would happen at a long track like Spa?". Are there emergency service roads, for example? How fast was the response to Burti's enormous impact there? That then reminded me of Katherine Legge's crash at Road America a few years ago, and having just looked at the footage on YouTube, there was a safety team at the scene in seconds :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZV-_dcaFos

Now, don't know what the medical qualifications of that team were, but presumably as long as they meet the minimum required to make an assessment, things can be escalated as required. If F1 / FIA series in general do not have that, then maybe we do need to be asking questions. Casting my mind back to Hakkinen's crash in Adelaide, who actually performed the emergency tracheoctomy, was if the medical car or a medical team that were at that section of the circuit?

Regardless of the arguments, I hope Massa makes a full recovery!

[Dave B]

Casting my mind back to Hakkinen's crash in Adelaide, who actually performed the emergency tracheoctomy, was if the medical car or a medical team that were at that section of the circuit?
Why that would be the surgeon who some like to denounce as an "old fart", Prof Sid Watkins.

[BDunnell]

Must admit, when I first read this topic, I thought it was a bit of a rant, but having thought about it, I think the concerns are valid.

I must say, I have revised my opinion on the general matter of circuit medical provision and what more could be done in that area as a result of some of the more informed, expert contributions made here. I still, however, disagree vehemently with some comments on other issues.

Providing emergency medical services at any large public event taking place at a venue of any size is always a major challenge to the organisers, and it is natural that, in the aftermath of any incident, certain questions will be asked as to the nature of the response. But it should always be remembered that certain limitations, especially relating to access, will always exist, though admittedly less so at purpose-built venues.

[markabilly]

Why that would be the surgeon who some like to denounce as an "old fart", Prof Sid Watkins.
You mean the same procedure performed numerous times daily in the USA by paramedics with a doctor miles away at some hospital, only in contact via radio, or by army medical corpsmen on the battlefield, who actually perform even more advanced procedures to reinflate lungs (as do many paramedics when necesssary)?

Mika was lucky as it was not a totally complete blockage and his lungs were still pumping and that time, ole fart arrived a bit quicker.

A complete blockage and:

(1) If RS had needed such a procedure at Indy, he would be dead.

(2) If Felipe had needed such a procedure yesterday, he would be dead.

All unnecessary deaths.
If another accident happens like Zanardi with a car bouncing across a track and being cut in two(which i think has a much higher probability as distquished from debris hitting a driver in the helmet), that driver will bleed to death before anything is done---again an unnecessary death.

[Easy Drifter]

I have been around motor racing since the early 50's. I can count on the fingers of one hand the # of accidents there have been where a driver got hit in the face and injured by a flying object, other than by large animals.
Stacey with a bird, Pryce with a marshalls fire extinguisher Surtees and now Massa.
Protection from a large item such as a wheel assembly, fire extiguisher or a deer is going to take something far stronger than a canopy just because of the mass involved.
You have to look at the positives and negatives and do serious research not just spout off.
Yes we need to do as much as possible to make racing safer but it is impossible to eliminate all possibilities.
I do agree that the FIA need to look into their accident response and not just in F1. But also to impose F1 standards on club racing would be insane. No one, drivers or organizers could afford it.
The CART and now IRL safety teams are great but for a local club race at say Nelson Ledges totally impractical.
I think NASCAR still is behind the times in proper safety teams although much better.
Safety at some short tracks is a complete joke.
When I first raced in a MGA (yeah that long ago) I had a 2 inch thread through lap belt, Everoak helmet, little better than a football helmet, drove in jeans, a Tee shirt, moccassins and the infamous string back gloves and by todays standards a useless roll bar.
That was the norm.
When I quit driving I had a 3 inch quick release belt, a Bucco state of the art, at that time helmet, still open face, Nomex suit and long Johns and bandanna. My shoes were boxing boots and still the old string back gloves.
My right knee rested against an aluminum gas tank hung outside the frame protected only by the fibreglass body. Full face helmets were a year or so away as were nomex socks and gloves and boots. Shoulder harnesses were just coming into use. My top of my head was above the roll bar.
Knowing what I know now I wouldn't have driven that car. But I knew the dangers.
Safety has come a very long way and I am all for improvements but over reaction is also a threat. Major changes need to be considered carefully to make sure they do not create more problems. You cannot guard against every possible incident.
Ioan, I know you are a passionate fan but I feel you are being too quick to demand changes here.
Drivers know and understand the risks and either accept them or don't drive.
I somehow doubt you have ever raced. That is not a knock, just an obsevation from an old f--t driver, who, by the way, has known far far too many drivers who died, including a few good friends.

[markabilly]

easy---i started road racing motorbikes wearing jeans, t-shirt, a half helmet like the cops sometimes still wear, no gloves (tried them, but the leather made my hands sweat too much) and some tennis shoes. I finally got some cowboy boots as it helped with the shifting. Saw guys hit the pavement and leave a yard of skin on the track.

I never landed on the pavement but if i had, well......

Never made much difference to me back then, just part of the game at the time. Sort of a thrill at the time.

Odd thing is, I have known and had many friends killed on the street on bikes, but never knew anyone who died racing a motorbike, except one guy--sort of distantly knew him, who died at the daytona 200 one year in the 1970's

[BDunnell]

Great post, Easy Drifter.



I do agree that the FIA need to look into their accident response and not just in F1. But also to impose F1 standards on club racing would be insane. No one, drivers or organizers could afford it.
The CART and now IRL safety teams are great but for a local club race at say Nelson Ledges totally impractical.

This point is especially notable, I think. Very often, the imposition of new requirements across the board is prohibitively expensive, and cannot be expected to be practical. This goes for many other events/activities than motor racing.

[Anubis]

To clarify, I wasn't using the Hakkinen accident to prove any sort of point, I had a vague recollection that there was medical assistance on site prior to Sid Watkins, but I couldn't remember if it was they that performed the emergency tracheoctomy or the actual medical car. I do tend to agree that in the event of a crash such as Zanardi's, F1 response may be too slow, but then I think back to Martin Donnelly's crash in 1990, which is probably the last F1 crash on a comparable scale where it was instantly obvious the outcome was very, very serious injury. There's not a great deal of footage of that crash, but the fact he survived at all tells us the FIA did something right. You could argue all day about track safety being poor in that incident, and you'd have a point, but then I can think of several AOWR examples where similar arguments could be made. I don't think it's a one way debate and I don't think it should be used to exclusively bash the FIA. The fact Zanardi was even racing at the time of his Champcar crash is testament to the strength of his Lotus at Spa in 1993, for example.

[Dave B]

This point is especially notable, I think. Very often, the imposition of new requirements across the board is prohibitively expensive, and cannot be expected to be practical. This goes for many other events/activities than motor racing.
However, improvements do filter down eventually. I'll wager that the helmets used in junior karting, for example, are far safer than the ones used a decade or two ago. Lessons learned in cash-rich series can be applied to club racing, especially where training in emergency procedures and protocols is concerned.

[BDunnell]

I ought to clarify something as well, namely that my comment earlier in this thread about it being desirable to have someone at the top of a medical response 'chain of command' didn't mean that I feel that this person has to be present at an accident site before anything can be done. However, it is surely necessary for any major event such as an F1 race to nominate a person with overall responsibility for this area, just as for timekeeping, stewards, etc.

[BDunnell]

However, improvements do filter down eventually. I'll wager that the helmets used in junior karting, for example, are far safer than the ones used a decade or two ago. Lessons learned in cash-rich series can be applied to club racing, especially where training in emergency procedures and protocols is concerned.

Very true. The same could be said of other non-motorsport events, as well, which now show far more regard for safety and are generally more professionally-organised than they were 20 or 30 years ago.

[Colin_Harvey]

You mean the same procedure performed numerous times daily in the USA by paramedics with a doctor miles away at some hospital, only in contact via radio, or by army medical corpsmen on the battlefield, who actually perform even more advanced procedures to reinflate lungs (as do many paramedics when necesssary)?

Why do you keep mentioning the USA as if it's some shining example of medical accomplishment whilst Europe (and the rest of the world) is still stuck in the stone age.

I know that a lot of Yanks suffer with an American motor racing inferiority complex but you seem to be taking that now to new levels!

[markabilly]

Why do you keep mentioning the USA as if it's some shining example of medical accomplishment whilst Europe (and the rest of the world) is still stuck in the stone age.

I know that a lot of Yanks suffer with an American motor racing inferiority complex but you seem to be taking that now to new levels!

what is wrong? truth hurt that bad, we need more personal attacks?

But to answer the question:

No, I just do not know what paramedics do in other countries at car wrecks on the street. And I do know something about how to treat trauma, especially head injuries.

As to emergency response in france, for example, I remember seeing a report about princess diana and her death, how the ambulance kept stopping rather than rushing her straight to the hospital where she might have had far better chances of survival. Seems the ambulance came with a doctor on board and they were going slow and stopping so he could do whatever, taking more than an hour.

Beyond that, I would not know with other countries, except that fia really sucks at F1 races.

But with the state of open wheel racing, and road racing, in the USA lower, and I mean far lower, than I have ever seen it in the past 45 years, I would think those with the "snot nose, superiority F1 complex" would at least, at a minimum, not want to get shown up by the likes of the IRL, nascar or chump car.....

but if the incentive of saving lives is not enough, then getting shown up by the like of the IRL is not either.....

Simple fact remains properly trained paramedics can do as fine a job at stablizing someone until they get to a proper hospital facility as can a doctor, and the good ones have all been trained in the same procedures available for use in the field as any doctor;

and when it comes to removal of persons from a wreck, their talents are superior to some doctor riding around in a mercedes, as i personally witnessed

As demonstrated by the Diane experience, while it is nice to have them at the scene, but docs do not need to be seriously working on a patient at an accident scene or in an ambulance. they need to be doing it at a hospital.

[ClarkFan]

Yes there is, in my opinion, and that is the argument — no, not the argument, the fact — that it is impossible to remove every potential element of risk. I'm sure some unimaginative person on here will suggest that this means I want to see people dying, but nothing could be further from the truth. I'm simply stating that there is no way, as with every danger in life, that any possible form of fatal accident in F1 can be prevented from happening.

Furthermore, is anyone else as irritated by the (inevitable, I know) comparisons being made, and not just by the media but also the likes of Rubens Barrichello, between the Massa accident and the crash that killed Henry Surtees? As far as I can work out, any similarities are utterly, and awfully, coincidental. I don't think these two freak accidents occurring within a week of each other needs to serve as a 'wake-up call'. Had the two incidents been identical, then yes, there would probably be a wider message, but despite the fact that both involved a driver being hit on the head by a loose object I cannot see how they are linked. Others have stated, surely correctly, that it is impossible to effectively prevent wheels coming off open-wheeled cars. I would suggest that it is also impossible to prevent all other potentially damaging objects coming off open-wheeled cars.
Grand Prix racing will remain dangerous by it very nature. Failure to have the best possible medical response to accidents in a series that squanders millions of dollars a year is unacceptable. And the current response proctocols are weak and the number of responders in place at the tracks is inadequate.

ClarkFan

[gm99]

what is wrong? truth hurt that bad, we need more personal attacks?

But to answer the question:

No, I just do not know what paramedics do in other countries at car wrecks on the street. And I do know something about how to treat trauma, especially head injuries.

As to emergency response in france, for example, I remember seeing a report about princess diana and her death, how the ambulance kept stopping rather than rushing her straight to the hospital where she might have had far better chances of survival. Seems the ambulance came with a doctor on board and they were going slow and stopping so he could do whatever, taking more than an hour.

Beyond that, I would not know with other countries, except that fia really sucks at F1 races.

But with the state of open wheel racing, and road racing, in the USA lower, and I mean far lower, than I have ever seen it in the past 45 years, I would think those with the "snot nose, superiority F1 complex" would at least, at a minimum, not want to get shown up by the likes of the IRL, nascar or chump car.....

but if the incentive of saving lives is not enough, then getting shown up by the like of the IRL is not either.....




Yet, F1 does seem to have quite a good record of saving lives in the past 15 years, with no driver deaths. Over the same period in the U.S., I can of the top of my head think of three fatalities in each of the major U.S. racing series(Krosnoff, Rodriguez & Moore in CART; Earnhart, Petty & Irwin in NASCAR and Brayton, Renna & Dana in the IRL).

Also, in spite of the sophisticated accident response, the U.S. actually lags in road deaths compared to most European countries: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/automobiles/22SAFETY.html

[ClarkFan]

It looks like we are pissing against the wind with everyone around here being more than happy with the state of safety in F1. :\

They are afraid that if the cars will have a protecting canopy for the driver's head or if there will be an ambulance stationed at every 2nd turn they will not be able to enjoy watching racing on their HD TV sets.

What a pitiful state is the humanity in nowadays?!
Not much different than 40 years ago, really. Jackie Stewart was widely villified and accused of cowardice for his safety campaign. Stewart was inspired by direct personal experience (being trapped in a BRM cockpit full of gasoline at Spa in 1966 with no rescue on hand except Graham Hill) and the loss of many friends. At that time, powers in the sport and fans argued that losing 2-3 drivers a year was simply the normal order of things and that trying to stop the ongoing carnage would ruin the sport. Sound familiar next to some of the arguments on this thread? :\

The simple truth is that F1 has become complacent about safety due to a 15-year run of good luck. And the 15 years is the part where luck comes in, not the recent spate of open car incidents. Henry Surtees is dead, Felipe Massa is in critical condition and Fernando Alonso could have well been killed by his own wheel today. I do not know what the answer is, but loudly pretending there is not a problem is clearly not the right course. If nothing else, F1's safety protocols and on track emergency staffing need a serious upgrade and there is no good reason that could not happen by Valencia.

ClarkFan

[markabilly]

Yet, F1 does seem to have quite a good record of saving lives in the past 15 years, with no driver deaths. Over the same period in the U.S., I can of the top of my head think of three fatalities in each of the major U.S. racing series(Krosnoff, Rodriguez & Moore in CART; Earnhart, Petty & Irwin in NASCAR and Brayton, Renna & Dana in the IRL).

Also, in spite of the sophisticated accident response, the U.S. actually lags in road deaths compared to most European countries: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/automobiles/22SAFETY.html

All too true and very sad. But none of the racers died because they were waiting on somebody to show up, and if all those other wrecks in the subject series had occurred with the usual F1 response, the death toll in would be far higher. The F1 record has been both great and very very lucky, and there is no point resting on past good luck to hope it continues.

And one of the worst problems in the usa, are the in and out laws on helmet wearing (or lack thereof) for motorbikes

[Anubis]

As to emergency response in france, for example, I remember seeing a report about princess diana and her death, how the ambulance kept stopping rather than rushing her straight to the hospital where she might have had far better chances of survival. .

I don't think that's a remotely fair comparison. One assumes the ambulance was stopping because the situation was so grave that immediate attention was required, which being inside an ambulance at speed would make impossible. I don't suppose they kept stopping for the sake of it, there was obviously a reason, so to invoke that as some sort of "their medical care is worse than x" is a poor argument IMO.

There's always lessons to be learned, regardless of the series or the governing body. Case in point would be the Scott Kalitta fatality. I've no doubt the NHRA has exceptional medical response and care, but should they have been allowing full 1/4 mile running at a track with such a short shutdown area? Sometimes it takes a tragedy to highlight a shortcoming, it doesn't need to descend into a pissing contest.

[BDunnell]

Not much different than 40 years ago, really. Jackie Stewart was widely villified and accused of cowardice for his safety campaign. Stewart was inspired by direct personal experience (being trapped in a BRM cockpit full of gasoline at Spa in 1966 with no rescue on hand except Graham Hill) and the loss of many friends. At that time, powers in the sport and fans argued that losing 2-3 drivers a year was simply the normal order of things and that trying to stop the ongoing carnage would ruin the sport. Sound familiar next to some of the arguments on this thread? :\

The simple truth is that F1 has become complacent about safety due to a 15-year run of good luck. And the 15 years is the part where luck comes in, not the recent spate of open car incidents. Henry Surtees is dead, Felipe Massa is in critical condition and Fernando Alonso could have well been killed by his own wheel today. I do not know what the answer is, but loudly pretending there is not a problem is clearly not the right course. If nothing else, F1's safety protocols and on track emergency staffing need a serious upgrade and there is no good reason that could not happen by Valencia.

ClarkFan

I resent the suggestion that those of us who express the view that it's impossible to remove every element of risk are somehow akin to those who vilified Stewart for his safety crusade. I have nothing but respect for Stewart's stance. What I object to are knee-jerk reactions that could either have the effects of diluting the essence of the sport, such as enclosed cockpits, or which are either pointless or potentially counter-productive, like the chicanes that sprang up all over in the aftermath of 1994's deaths and serious accidents.

I must say I am also at a loss as to what 'the problem' is. Henry Surtees, not in an F1 car, was killed by a flying wheel. Massa was badly hurt by a spring that fell off. Alonso had a loose wheel. There is no connection between the three events whatsoever. I do not believe they are indicative of a wider problem. What is that problem? If it's wheels coming off, surely this is impossible to completely prevent? If it's bits of car coming off, surely this too is impossible to completely prevent? And how far should motorsport take its efforts at prevention? It is not strictly necessary for rally stages to take place through tree-lined forests, after all. Should this be banned? Innovations such as HANS, improved impact protection, improved helmets, improved tyre barriers and so on are to be applauded, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Those who believe it possible to eliminate every potential risk are being unrealistic, in my opinion, just as those who believe it possible to cut the risk of terrorism down to zero are being equally unrealistic — and also counterproductive.

[markabilly]

I don't think that's a remotely fair comparison. One assumes the ambulance was stopping because the situation was so grave that immediate attention was required, which being inside an ambulance at speed would make impossible. I don't suppose they kept stopping for the sake of it, there was obviously a reason, so to invoke that as some sort of "their medical care is worse than x" is a poor argument IMO.

There's always lessons to be learned, regardless of the series or the governing body. Case in point would be the Scott Kalitta fatality. I've no doubt the NHRA has exceptional medical response and care, but should they have been allowing full 1/4 mile running at a track with such a short shutdown area? Sometimes it takes a tragedy to highlight a shortcoming, it doesn't need to descend into a pissing contest.

As to Diane, I do not know, except a number of experts on emergency medical have condemened what happenned. That kind of behavior would lead to massive massive malpractice suits in the USA.**

As to piss contest, it is a couple of others who engage in this name calling when they lack anyhing else to say in defense of the indefensible....so I get must be "a usa complex".."pundits with a key board",,,,maybe I should just call them idiots and so forth as they have done to me.....yeah right.

Run off is another very important safety consideration, but that was not the point of my post, nor was it "bragging".

BTW it was about 4 or 5 miles to the hospital, and most people could walk and get there quicker than what they did. And less than a mile, (a distance that at 60 mph, can be covered in a minute, they stop and start working on her again, give her a big shot of adrenaline, something very questionable, given the later descriptions of her heart being ripped from one side of her chest cavity to the other, and spend another 20 minutes sitting there--all in all about a 1.5 hour "rescue" that would take a good parmedic crew, from strat to finish, maybe 15 mintues from arrival at scen to arrival at hospital)

[markabilly]

(the reason for the adrenaline would be to increase heart rate, usually a good idea in drug overdose and other similar type presentations, but not so good with chest cavity bleeding as it causes the heart to pump faster and the increased blood flow simply leaks into the cavity and keeps the rupture going that much worse---the ruptures needed repair, open heart surgery which is not done in an ambulance, with a heart lung machine to keep her heart at rest while repairied and if done quickly enough with proper presonnel and equipment, there is nothing that has ever been revealed that makes her injury terminal. But given the delay, when she arrived, she had now become terminal and nothing could save her---which is my point about the need for spped to save lives, not just mere "quality")

[Anubis]

Run off is another very important safety consideration, but that was not the point of my post, nor was it "bragging".

I wasn't implying it was, just that it's an area where I think the FIA has been very active (admittedly sometimes too much so) and deserves credit. I don't think it's fair to try and paint them as an organisation who don't care about driver safety, which the tone of your posts seems to want to do. Do you think Burti would have been more or less injured had his Spa impact occured in the relevant years Champcar/IRL chassis, for example? If the medical situation needs reviewing then fine, review it and see if things can be improved. Brilliant medical response is obviously desired, but we should also make sure that the tracks and cars are safe enough that such immediate medical aid is seldom required. There were certainly track safety concerns in the Krosnoff, Rodriguez and Moore fatalities, for example. No series or sanctioning body is perfect.

[markabilly]

I wasn't implying it was, just that it's an area where I think the FIA has been very active (admittedly sometimes too much so) and deserves credit. I don't think it's fair to try and paint them as an organisation who don't care about driver safety, which the tone of your posts seems to want to do. Do you think Burti would have been more or less injured had his Spa impact occured in the relevant years Champcar/IRL chassis, for example? If the medical situation needs reviewing then fine, review it and see if things can be improved. Brilliant medical response is obviously desired, but we should also make sure that the tracks and cars are safe enough that such immediate medical aid is seldom required. There were certainly track safety concerns in the Krosnoff, Rodriguez and Moore fatalities, for example. No series or sanctioning body is perfect.
Dumping improvements on track safety on track owners is relatively esay and costs bernie and the FIA nothing.
Hence big improvements imposed.

Putting the effort into a first class med response team to go to all races is an expense for the fia, and they just do not want to spend what it would take to bring it up to those....well certain series, and one can question the adequacies of those series in those aeras but as Clark fan siad, they are 15 years ahead of FIA.....

[Easy Drifter]

Discussing road accidents and response times and treatment in one specific incident in one country really has zip to do with the current discussion.
We are talking medical response on race tracks and in particular F1.
I do believe the FIA need to take a good look at their protocol. I do believe there is room for improvement. Getting properly equipped, as to equipment and staffed emergency vehicles moving quicker is quite viable. Slowing race cars on track can be done safely by central control. The drivers will need a few seconds warning that their power is going to be cut and why. You just can't do it with someone in mid corner or on threshold braking.
It can be done. I also do not want to see a huge chunk of races run under safety car as is common in the US.
There has to be a reasonable medium.

[markabilly]

Discussing road accidents and response times and treatment in one specific incident in one country really has zip to do with the current discussion.
We are talking medical response on race tracks and in particular F1.
.


More lessons on the same subject of equal applicability whether we be talking F1, street accidents, falls down the stairs, heart attacks, one country or another, or vietfingnam where far more of my friends died than on a race track or anywhere else.(19 I can count who were close as in real close, others i knew, but I can not remember all of them)

And Di is a good example of a doctor trying to do what many think Sid was suppose to be doing at the track....

Nam was a real lesson in trauma care, (and an experience for me best not to describe), where it became appearent the quicker the injured recieved basic stabilizing treatment by a medic and then brought to a proper first class facility hospital (not some tent with one doc per WW2), via chopper--even when those trips took 20 minutes or more, the dramatic improvement in survival rates and recovery from injury can not be ignored.

Fundamental and no different than what should be the priority at an f1 race.

[mwr120675]

Why that would be the surgeon who some like to denounce as an "old fart", Prof Sid Watkins.

Actualy it was Dr. Jerome Cockins who performed the emergency Tracheotomy that saved Mika's life.

[BobbyC]

Bill Simpson and his IMPACT! Racing boys will probably be burning the midnight oil, firing springs into helmets at close range to test helmets for new designs.

That's just the way he was taught, and he'll probably be doing that consistently to see what could be done. But crash safety is definitely better when race control lets the ambulances roll immediately from any hole.

[Jag_Warrior]

For those of us who were CART and F1 fans, I don't think many of us would disagree that the CART safety team was the one area where CART had it hands down over F1, NASCAR or really, any other series. Those guys were IT!

Yeah, when I saw Massa's crash, the episode did appear to be pretty "amateur hour".

It sounds like Massa's doing better... and I guess that's the important thing. But I would think that the most advanced racing series on the planet could do better than that.