Hungarian Grand Prix - 2009

[gloomyDAY]

Who is going to win in Hungary?

My prediction: Trulli. :D

[Tazio]

Who is going to win in Hungary?

My prediction: Trulli. :D Go back to your crack pipe :p :

[Tazio]

Actually I have a very strong feeling this is Fettel’s race.
I hope I'm wrong! I don't mind eating humble pie.
It's the Hamburger I'll have to buy you that is at stake here. :p :

[jens]

For Toyota Hungaroring has traditionally been one of the best circuits, often due to high temperatures. Brawn's struggles during the past two races due to cool temperatures have been well-documented, but it's pretty much the same with Toyota. And even despite complete disaster (results-wise) at the Nürburgring, at least Glock's drive from the pitlane to 9th and Trulli's second fastest laptime indicate that the car isn't completely "paceless". Glock also has a new race engineer, so maybe they are able to cure his qualifying woes. Timo should aim for Top5 at least, provided he qualifies properly like last year. But in response to above, Trulli won't win for sure, this is his worst circuit. :p :

But with regard to title fight, I hope Red Bull can keep it up and continue closing the gap on Brawn/Button. This is gonna be quite a decisive race for Brawn, because the circuit and conditions should suit them in every way, so if they won't perform better in Hungary than the last two races, they are going to face a difficult finish to the year... in comparison to RBR at least.

[christophulus]

Hamilton? Massa? Webber, Vettel..? Could be anyone really, although I'm going to tip Brawn and specifically Button to get back to winning ways.

[Saint Devote]

I think that the driver in the lead taking the chequered flag first will win, because I predict no steward enquiries.

[Valve Bounce]

And the first car to retire will come last. :p :

[Ari]

And the first car to retire will come last. :p :

Actually..... the first car to retire will be the first to DNF. The last car to cross the line will come last. :p

[UltimateDanGTR]

I think that the driver in the lead taki ng the chequered flag first will win, because I predict no steward enquiries.

well thats being a bit optomistic. if it was a mclaren first across the line (which i doubt mind) then there would have to be a stewards enquiry. I say that, Ferrari probably find themselves in the same boat now! No more Ferraris International Assistance is a good thing.

and now i dont mind seeing the ferraris doing well, because that is against the FIA when a ferrari does well now. and thats a good thing until Ari Vatanen arrives.

anyways, I reckon one of the red bulls will win this years snore fest at the most boring racing circuit ever known to man.

get ready for a boring grand prix!

[gloomyDAY]

I don't think Hungary is a boring grand prix.

On the other hand, watching the European Grand Prix felt like someone had shoved a handful of Ambien down my throat. My goodness, it was more tedious than reading The Bible!

[Valve Bounce]

Actually..... the first car to retire will be the first to DNF. The last car to cross the line will come last. :p Not necesssarily - lapped cars are not permitted to run another lap after the winner crosses the line.

[driveace]

Back to the original question, Sebastian Vettel !

[Valve Bounce]

Expected temp to average around 30.5 according to F1.
Here's a more accurate picture: .http://www.myweather2.com/Motor-Racing/Hungary/Hungaroring-Circuit.aspx?sday=1

[Tazio]

Expected temp to average around 30.5 according to F1.
Here's a more accurate picture: .http://www.myweather2.com/Motor-Racing/Hungary/Hungaroring-Circuit.aspx?sday=1Should we be expecting certain teams to go with new engines this race?
Normally Hungary is not considered to be hard on equipment,
Could 30.5 dictate a change in engine strategy especially for R.B. and Brawn?

[ioan]

It says 25 degrees for Sunday and one less for Saturday.

[Dave B]

If the temperature is favourable I predict a return to form for Brawn - ie a Button win.

Other than that I reckon a fired-up Webber could do the business again, and I'd be perfectly happy with that.

With Ferrari strong again and McLaren improving all the time, it's really too difficult to call.

[jens]

I think Red Bull's upgrade at Silverstone has been so significant that even in hot conditions they are a bigger favourite for the win than Brawn. I suspect BGP's early-season domination glory-days are over, but we will see...

[Valve Bounce]

I think Red Bull's upgrade at Silverstone has been so significant that even in hot conditions they are a bigger favourite for the win than Brawn. I suspect BGP's early-season domination glory-days are over, but we will see...

OK! how about Lewis Hamilton? Could we say he will be the dark horse?

[Roamy]

I think if it is very warm - button
then v ettle
then massa

[Saint Devote]

well thats being a bit optomistic. if it was a mclaren first across the line (which i doubt mind) then there would have to be a stewards enquiry. I say that, Ferrari probably find themselves in the same boat now! No more Ferraris International Assistance is a good thing.

and now i dont mind seeing the ferraris doing well, because that is against the FIA when a ferrari does well now. and thats a good thing until Ari Vatanen arrives.

anyways, I reckon one of the red bulls will win this years snore fest at the most boring racing circuit ever known to man.

get ready for a boring grand prix!

Yes, it is positive that Ferrari no longer have the secret joker and I agree that Ari Vatanen is the emerging ideal successor to Mosley. Until then I was supportive of Todt.

I disagree that the H-ring is a snooze fest. I just enjoy watching f1 anyway, but I have one name that proves the grand prix can be a superb race - and yes I realize the times were different:

Nigel Mansell :-]

[Saint Devote]

I think the biggest shock, was not the Brawn fortune over the past two races or even the strides by Red Bull, but that the "wunderkind" was utterly whupped at his home race contrary to expectations, by his teammate Mark Webber.

And what a sweet weekend it was as a result :-]

For me the biggest question is whether Webber can sustain the form that we saw emerge at Silverstone and to which Vettel had NO answer to at the Faux Nurburgring.

[gloomyDAY]

I think the biggest shock, was not the Brawn fortune over the past two races or even the strides by Red Bull, but that the "wunderkind" was utterly whupped at his home race contrary to expectations, by his teammate Mark Webber.

And what a sweet weekend it was as a result :-]

For me the biggest question is whether Webber can sustain the form that we saw emerge at Silverstone and to which Vettel had NO answer to at the Faux Nurburgring.I think you're trying to make less of Vettel than he's actually worth. Yes, Mark did deserve the win and I have no quarrels with that fact. What bothers me is that forum-ers think that Vettel somehow turned into the RBR whipping boy by coming in second place. Keep in mind that Vettel did not qualify well, got jumped at the start and was down in 6th at one point, and then had to fight his way up the grid.

Vettel may not have said much, but he's competitive. Expect to see that on Sunday.

[Valve Bounce]

I think you're trying to make less of Vettel than he's actually worth. Yes, Mark did deserve the win and I have no quarrels with that fact. What bothers me is that forum-ers think that Vettel somehow turned into the RBR whipping boy by coming in second place. Keep in mind that Vettel did not qualify well, got jumped at the start and was down in 6th at one point, and then had to fight his way up the grid.

Vettel may not have said much, but he's competitive. Expect to see that on Sunday.
Agreed! I suspect he was a carriage behind the Kovi train.

[Roamy]

The thing with a young driver now is too see if he can bounce back. But don't kid yourself that was one powerful race that Webber just did. Kicked ass with a drive through! That is a full piss on everyone in the race!!

[Ent]

Vettel had a bit of bad luck in quali which ruined his last race, as Webber has had happen in other races earlier this season. I rate both RBs an equal chance for the race, with the Brawns obviously also a chance. On saying that, I would not be at all surprised to see Massa or Hamilton take the win, either. Saturday's qualifying will tell who is in with a chance and who isn't. If someone like Hamilton can get close enough to the front and KERS his way to the lead off the start, he could very well win. Qualifying should be very interesting indeed.

[ioan]

What the heck is that ugly step on the BMW's nose cone?!

[ioan]

BrawnGP were running the RB style nose side horns attached with tape to the regular nose!

[Valve Bounce]

Good grief!! McLaren are back. :eek:

[christophulus]

Glad to see McLaren finally showing some pace. Webber was miles ahead of Vettel so perhaps the Red Bulls aren't going to suffer too badly in the heat.

Good to see Toro Rosso's mega update paid off - wait...

[truefan72]

Glad to see McLaren finally showing some pace. Webber was miles ahead of Vettel so perhaps the Red Bulls aren't going to suffer too badly in the heat.

Good to see Toro Rosso's mega update paid off - wait...

and their new driver coming in dead last
learning on the job with no prior F1 experience.
thoughts after FP1
the Macs seem strong
RBR is doing its thing
Brawn are either sandbagging or have some issues that we don't really know about. The Glaring problem I see with them now is funding vis-a-vis sponsorship. It is astonishing that the WDC and WCC leading cars can't get any sponsorship on their cars. Even if it is below value, some dollars should be better than none. That might be hampering development.. oh well. If idiot Bernie had his way the WCC would be practically over already. Still think it is btw.

Really don't know what to make of the Williams. We have been here before, so many times.

Ferrari's, solid, not stellar, but like the macs, improving to contenders. Kimi seems to have come with a purpose. If this were a 25 race season, both macs and ferrari's would be right in the mix by season's end.

Renault, Alonso doing his usual overachieving, while piquet his usual underachieving. TBH if there was any driver to be removed from his seat, it should have been him instead of Bourdais. wishful thinking, but would it not be fitting to see NPJr be replaced by a Bourdais at Renault? LOL

Toyota, seemingly on the rebound

BMW, improving, but still miles to go and if Thiesen is to be taken at his word, they have halted any more development on this car. Kubica doing a fine job, Heidfeld not so well, remains an enigma.

[ioan]

Looks like Alguersuari is straight away closer to Buemi than Bourdais was after 1 and a half season.

[DexDexter]

Well done Heikki! Mclaren are maybe back but they've been quick on Fridays before so fingers crossed.

[Garry Walker]

Looks like Alguersuari is straight away closer to Buemi than Bourdais was after 1 and a half season.

If JA, with no testing, is close to Buemi come qualifying, I will be very impressed. But it would also show a lot about how weak the STR line-up has been for a while already.

[Ranger]

If JA, with no testing, is close to Buemi come qualifying, I will be very impressed. But it would also show a lot about how weak the STR line-up has been for a while already.

I'd agree with that.

[ioan]

If JA, with no testing, is close to Buemi come qualifying, I will be very impressed. But it would also show a lot about how weak the STR line-up has been for a while already.

Actually it seems that he drove an STR sometimes last year at the Algarve circuit. So all this talk about this being the first time he takes a corner with a F1 car is just the result of some poor journalism.

[Tazio]

THat punk is toast this weekend! I hope he doesn't pull any Bordais, and cause a mess on the first lap!

[ioan]

THat punk is toast this weekend! I hope he doesn't pull any Bordais, and cause a mess on the first lap!

What punk?! :rolleyes:

[Tazio]

What punk?! :rolleyes:
Alguersuari :p :

[ioan]

Alguersuari :p :

He's no punk.

[jens]

I don't think McLaren is really ready to fight for the win, like some may assume. And besides that McLaren has shined at FP's in this season before too.

[Tazio]

He's no punk.Excuse me. I meant to say "a still wet behind the ears midseason rookie driving a back marker".
I’ll probably warm up to the guy (as I tend to develop an affinity for Latin American and Southern European Drivers)
Unless they drive for Ferrari.
Then I don't care if they come from Ur-An-US :laugh:
:rotflmao:

[gloomyDAY]

Hmmmmm.....McLaren 1-2? Seems kind of dubious.
Let's see how qualifying pans out.


Excuse me. I meant to say "a still wet behind the ears midseason rookie driving a back marker".
I’ll probably warm up to the guy (as I tend to develop an affinity for Latin American and Southern European Drivers)
Unless they drive for Ferrari.
Then I don't care if they come from Ur-An-US :laugh:
:rotflmao: You have to like Jaime (it's pronounced Hai-Meh)!
He's being powered by a Ferrari engine.

[Tazio]

You have to like Jaime (it's pronounced Hai-Meh)!
He's being powered by a Ferrari engine.

I didn't like beets untill my parents stoped forcing me to eat them.
With all do respect I will form my own opinnion of him.
I could use the points for FGP since I own the Ferrari Powerplant.
But that's the only reason and that ain't gonna' happen
Bu I'm no fan Of T.R.
Having Ferrari power is not remotely equivalent to racing a Ferrari.
And I am sill offering my sig in a bet that says he don't finnish the freaking revent on the lerd lap, or be within 4 places of scoring a point.

[Tazio]

You have to like Jaime (it's pronounced Hai-Meh)!
He's being powered by a Ferrari engine.

I didn't like beets untill my parents stoped forcing me to eat them.
With all do respect I will form my own opinnion of him.
I could use the points for FGP since I own the Ferrari Powerplant.
But that's the only reason and that ain't gonna' happen
I'm no fan Of T.R.
Having Ferrari power is not remotely equivalent to racing a Ferrari.
And I am sill offering my sig in a bet that says he don't finnish the freaking event on the lerd lap, or be within 4 places of scoring a point.

[ioan]

Having Ferrari power is not remotely equivalent to racing a Ferrari.

Blasphemy!
Enzo himself never cared about how aero efficient on e of his car was, all he cared about was to have enough power to be fastest.

[Tazio]

Don't care!
And last time I checked Enzo was still dead :p
An arrogant prick that started a co. that builds hot
sports cars

[Firstgear]

You have to like Jaime (it's pronounced Hai-Meh)!

I thought it was pronounced "Hi-Me", like the robot on "Get Smart"

[Valve Bounce]

Holy Crap, Batman, The Macs are back!! :eek:

[ioan]

Holy Crap, Batman, The Macs are back!! :eek:

Don't get to excited, Robin.
They were 'back' 2 weeks ago too, at the back of the field that is! ;)

Seriously, I hope the finish between the winning RedBulls and BrawnGPs! :D

[Tazio]

Don't get to excited, Robin.
They were 'back' 2 weeks ago too, at the back of the field that is! ;)

Seriously, I hope the finish between the winning RedBulls and BrawnGPs! :D Along with a Ferrari, Fred, and a Toyota or Nico thrown in! :p :

[ioan]

Looks like a McLaren win is in the cards and it also looks like RBR and BrwanGP will be fighting for the small points and this isn't good for the championship.

Almost forgot, Ferrari look like nothing special. :\

[Tazio]

Looks like a McLaren win is in the cards and it also looks like RBR and BrwanGP will be fighting for the small points and this isn't good for the championship.

Almost forgot, Ferrari look like nothing special. :\
Practice Bro! Practice!

[jens]

Looks like a McLaren win is in the cards

Even you are saying this? Wow! :p :

[Sonic]

The williams' look quick. First podium perhaps?

[ioan]

This looks bad for Felipe.

[Sonic]

Weird shunt. Skid marks start from 30 metres before the corner and then go a cars width the wrong side of turn 4's kerb. BBC just suggesting debris striking him. :-(

[ioan]

FGS, he's been hit in the had by a metal can!

[harvick#1]

please let massa be ok

[ioan]

Apparently he can move all his limbs but he suffers amnesia.
They'll bring him to the hospital.

I hope he'll be OK.

PS: Looks like it might have been a suspension coil from Rubens car! According to Wurz the part is around 500 grams heavy. Given the speed that was really a big impact.

He will certainly not be in the race tomorrow.

[harvick#1]

good at least hes awake

[gm99]

Apparently it was not a can, but a part (spring?) from Barrichello's rear suspension.

[ioan]

We almost lost another driver after last week end's catastrophe.

[Ent]

Head injuries are not good, especially when memory loss is involved. Massa has improved immensely as a driver in recent seasons and has always been a nice guy. Hope he recovers quickly and there are no serious problems.

They don't televise qualifying here, and I've only got the F1 live timing to go by, which is saying nothing. Thanks for posting the info here so I could find out what's going on.

[Robinho]

glad he looks like hes physically safe, was a worry few moments there, especially after last week - hope he reocvers well, but with concussion he won't be racing tomorrow

[ioan]

And now the timing system is out!

[ioan]

So? Who's the pole sitter?!

[harvick#1]

lmao Alonso thinks hes fastest

[Robinho]

i think its Alonso

[harvick#1]

Alonso is confirmed P1
Vettel P2
Webber P3

[ioan]

So it's Alonso, Vettel, Webber I wonder how did they come to this conclusion.

[Ent]

They're "waiting for confirmation on Alonso's pole"...

Does the TV have any rough idea of results? Webber was leading when it went blank.

[Josti]

The order seems to be:

1. Alonso
2. Vettel
3. Rosberg
4. Webber
5. Kovalainen
6. Hamilton
7. Raikkonen
8. Nakajima
9. Button
10.Massa

from http://live2.f1-live.com/f1/en/results/live_flash/index.html

[Josti]

seems it changed already, but Alonso on pole anyway so congrats to him!

[Somebody]

So, headlines tomorrow - "driver knocked out by flying debris, crashes into wall" and "Timing system FIAsco". Just the sort of publicity F1 wants

[veeten]

Apparently it was not a can, but a part (spring?) from Barrichello's rear suspension.

Heave spring was what broke loose from Barrichello's car. They (FIA officials) held Button's car at the start of Q3 to asses his car and be sure that it was a one-time incident, and not a design problem.

[Ent]

When live timing came back up, it had Alonso first, then Vettel, Webber, Hamilton and then Rosberg as the top 5.

[veeten]

System reboot. :p :

[UltimateDanGTR]

When live timing came back up, it had Alonso first, then Vettel, Webber, Hamilton and then Rosberg as the top 5.

thats what the bbc got from the official FIA timing when it eventually returned, after the beeb had finished (it was on the website live bit thing)

Button down in 8th. not good for the championship leader.

[Dave B]

The live timing is plugged into one of those cheap timeswitches to save electricity, it was set to switch off at the top of the hour.All part of FIA costcutting :p

[truefan72]

man I don't trust these times at all

it would seem strange that Rosberg, Vettel, Webber, and Hamilton were unable to improve over Alonso's time given that they were all about equal in pace before the final pits. Alonso just was the only one with a legit time on the board before the system failed.

i have to beleive that based on the first flying lap tiimes fo those guys, that they would all have been quicker than Alonso in their 2nd Q3 run.

this is all messed up. I'm sure there will be protests on the way.

even Alonso seems perplexed knowing that all those guys were coming after him were probably going to pip his time.

what a comically embarrassing situation for the FIA.

I don't trust these times

[Somebody]

Okay, BBC website now says: Alonso[/*:m:2s28atbl] Vettel[/*:m:2s28atbl] Webber[/*:m:2s28atbl] Hamilton[/*:m:2s28atbl] Rosberg[/*:m:2s28atbl] Kovalainen[/*:m:2s28atbl] Raikkonen[/*:m:2s28atbl] Button[/*:m:2s28atbl] Nakajima[/*:m:2s28atbl] Massa[/*:m:2s28atbl]
(Not that I can imagine Massa being allowed to start tomorrow)

[ioan]

i have to beleive that based on the first flying lap tiimes fo those guys, that they would all have been quicker than Alonso in their 2nd Q3 run.

That's no fact. All of them were all over the place because of the wind and there is no way to know for sure they would have beaten him.

[truefan72]

The live timing is plugged into one of those cheap timeswitches to save electricity, it was set to switch off at the top of the hour.All part of FIA costcutting :p

what an idiotic situation.

you would think they would build in redundancies to anticipate delays in Qualifying. When C.Whiting announced the Q3 delay, how come the timing folks didn't think to check the system so that we wouldn't go dark in the last 2 minutes of qualy with all the contenders about to set their times.

[ioan]

Hopefully Felipe is OK. However I'm 100% sure he won't race tomorrow.

So who will race for them tomorrow?
Where's Schumacher?!
Will Ferrari race Badoer or Gene? Or will they give a call to a certain 7 times WDC who would probably love to have some fun?!

if they use Gene or Badoer I hope they will do their best to preserve the engine.

[Dave B]

I don't trust these times
It may be that the system was still recording times but failing to communicate and display them, which would be easy for the FIA to verify.

If all else fails the teams can produce their own telemetry and easily sort them into order.

Either way, I wouldn't have any mistrust. Systems have failed before, although it's rare in recent times, and it's never been a problem.

Embarrassing, maybe...

[ioan]

what an idiotic situation.

you would think they would build in redundancies to anticipate delays in Qualifying. When C.Whiting announced the Q3 delay, how come the timing folks didn't think to check the system so that we wouldn't go dark in the last 2 minutes of qualy with all the contenders about to set their times.

Man, it was just a good joke from Dave, none of that happened! :rolleyes:

[Somebody]

Autosport's going so far as to claim times, although they note "All Timing Unofficial":
Alonso 1:21.569[/*:m:14ms9az4]
Vettel 1:21.607[/*:m:14ms9az4]
Webber 1:21.741[/*:m:14ms9az4]
Hamilton 1:21.839[/*:m:14ms9az4]
Rosberg 1:21.890[/*:m:14ms9az4]
Kovalainen 1:22.095[/*:m:14ms9az4]
Raikkonen 1:22.468[/*:m:14ms9az4]
Button 1:22.511[/*:m:14ms9az4]
Nakajima 1:22.835[/*:m:14ms9az4]


what an idiotic situation.

you would think they would build in redundancies to anticipate delays in Qualifying. When C.Whiting announced the Q3 delay, how come the timing folks didn't think to check the system so that we wouldn't go dark in the last 2 minutes of qualy with all the contenders about to set their times.
Q3 didn't START until after the time it was meant to have ENDED. DB was joking.

[christophulus]

Bit of a fiasco really. The BBC feed did disappear for a couple of minutes between Q2 and Q3 so there's probably some sort of electrical issue at the track. And hope Massa is OK, good to see him moving and talking.

For the race, Alonso is going to be running practically no fuel. I'm predicting Hamilton to be ahead of the Red Bulls by turn 1...

[Sonic]

Shocking. I haven't seen anything fly off a car and hit another since monza '95 and that was a camera hitting one of the Ferrari's but I can't think of the last time a piece of vehicle came loose. Thankfully it sounds like he's gonna be ok.

[Dave B]

Hopefully Felipe is OK. However I'm 100% sure he won't race tomorrow.


Where's Schumacher?!
Will Ferrari race Badoer or Gene? Or will they give a call to a certain 7 times WDC who would probably love to have some fun?!
Interesting question. Initial reports suggest Massa is ok, and that's a huge relief, but Ferrari and the FIA may very well prevent him racing tomorrow.

I honestly can't see Schuey stepping in, however fantastic that would be to watch. Is Badoer their official reserve driver these days?

[ioan]

For the race, Alonso is going to be running practically no fuel. I'm predicting Hamilton to be ahead of the Red Bulls by turn 1...

That pretty much sums it up.

[Sonic]

Hopefully Felipe is OK. However I'm 100% sure he won't race tomorrow.

So who will race for them tomorrow?
Where's Schumacher?!
Will Ferrari race Badoer or Gene? Or will they give a call to a certain 7 times WDC who would probably love to have some fun?!

if they use Gene or Badoer I hope they will do their best to preserve the engine.

That could be fun!

Or they may not run both cars. They aren't exactly fighting for a championship.

[Tazio]

i have to beleive that based on the first flying lap tiimes fo those guys, that they would all have been quicker than Alonso in their 2nd Q3 run.




Why don't you give the double wdc a ing break Einstein! Plus he may be light! Quit spewing your BS conspiracy theories>

[ioan]

Interesting question. Initial reports suggest Massa is ok, and that's a huge relief, but Ferrari and the FIA may very well prevent him racing tomorrow.

If he's been knocked out than they won't let him race.
I assume they are already making a full magnetic resonance scan of his brain right now.
Everything will depend on the results of this scan, but I think that for the sake of safety he should not race tomorrow. He's got little to win and all to lose.



I honestly can't see Schuey stepping in, however fantastic that would be to watch. Is Badoer their official reserve driver these days?

To be honest I think that MS is still way faster than any of their two test drivers.

[ioan]

That could be fun!

Or they may not run both cars. They aren't exactly fighting for a championship.

They are fighting for 3rd in the constructors championship, however there is little chance that they can score points starting dead last, and I think that they are required to field 2 cars at every race.

[truefan72]

That's no fact. All of them were all over the place because of the wind and there is no way to know for sure they would have beaten him.

but ioan, q3 was going right according to form. all posted their times in the first run, then all started to improve with their second run. Alonso was behind Webber, Hamilton, and I think Rosberg after the first run, so the fuel loads were equatable to how they would do in the 2nd run. Alonsio was first out in the group of pole contenders and did his time, then the live timing went out and all the others behind him who were faster than him in the first run were in the dark and then determined to be slower than him in their second run.

That to me is strange. Given the estimated fuel loads, and times in the first run. TBH I think both Webber and Hamilton, and possibly Vettel would have pipped his time and Rosberg looked awfully quick as well.

Oh well

on to the race

[Tazio]

That could be fun!

Or they may not run both cars. They aren't exactly fighting for a championship.
Niki Lauda is going to jump into the car and win by a full minute :laugh:

[veeten]

It may be that the system was still recording times but failing to communicate and display them, which would be easy for the FIA to verify.

If all else fails the teams can produce their own telemetry and easily sort them into order.

Either way, I wouldn't have any mistrust. Systems have failed before, although it's rare in recent times, and it's never been a problem.

Embarrassing, maybe...

well, that's what happens when you're using Windows 98SE. Cost-cutting, you know... ;) :p :

[ioan]

but ioan, q3 was going right according to form. all posted their times in the first run, then all started to improve with their second run. Alonso was behind Webber, Hamilton, and I think Rosberg after the first run, so the fuel loads were equatable to how they would do in the 2nd run. Alonsio was first out in the group of pole contenders and did his time, then the live timing went out and all the others behind him who were faster than him in the first run were in the dark and then determined to be slower than him in their second run.

That to me is strange. Given the estimated fuel loads, and times in the first run. TBH I think both Webber and Hamilton, and possibly Vettel would have pipped his time and Rosberg looked awfully quick as well.

Oh well

on to the race

Fuel loads might have been a given, but the wind wasn't.

[Somebody]

Interesting question. Initial reports suggest Massa is ok, and that's a huge relief, but Ferrari and the FIA may very well prevent him racing tomorrow.

I honestly can't see Schuey stepping in, however fantastic that would be to watch. Is Badoer their official reserve driver these days?

If Massa can't, or isn't allowed to, race tomorrow - as it currently appears - Kimi will be the only Ferrari driver on the track. You're not allowed to swap drivers after the start of Q1.

If Massa isn't okay by the next race, then they'd be looking to a test driver - but Valencia's almost a full month away, so he probably will be. If they'd been in back-to-back weeks, it might have been another story. (*was surprised to see a four-week gap following a three-week gap*. Did they lose a race late on when setting the calendar?)

[ioan]

Niki Lauda is going to jump into the car and win by a full minute :laugh:

I might stop being a Ferrari fan between 14:00 and 16:00 tomorrow if that happens.

[markabilly]

Don't worry, i hear JV is packing his helmet and on his way to save the day

[Ent]

So who will race for them tomorrow?
Where's Schumacher?!
Will Ferrari race Badoer or Gene? Or will they give a call to a certain 7 times WDC who would probably love to have some fun?!

if they use Gene or Badoer I hope they will do their best to preserve the engine.

It's either Massa or just run the one car tomorrow. You can't have one driver qualify and another race. If Massa had withdrawn before qualifying, they could have switched drivers, but not now.

If he isn't fit to race tomorrow, there will only be 19 starters.

[truefan72]

Interesting question. Initial reports suggest Massa is ok, and that's a huge relief, but Ferrari and the FIA may very well prevent him racing tomorrow.

I honestly can't see Schuey stepping in, however fantastic that would be to watch. Is Badoer their official reserve driver these days?

If he does have a slight concussion, then he would absolutely not be allowed to drive. I'm just glad he is ok as it seemed rather serious initially. It was a freak incident, and I'm sure Rubens feels awful.

I think Badoer gets the start. Would itf be from p10?

[christophulus]

Technically Ferrari can't change drivers now, although I've no doubt they'll be allowed to do so. I seriously doubt Schumacher will be allowed to race even if they select him, don't superlicences expire eventually? (Yes, he's perfectly competent but rules are rules)





Massa has been taken to hospital but his injuries are not though to be serious. He is, however, not expected to take part in the race. Ferrari will not be allowed to use a replacement driver unless the stewards agree they may do so under force majeure. Article 19.1 of the sporting regulations states:
During a season each team will be permitted to use four drivers. Changes may be made at any time before the start of the qualifying practice session provided any change proposed after 16.00 on the day of scrutineering receives the consent of the stewards.
Additional changes for reasons of force majeure will be considered separately.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/07/25/felipe-massa-crashes-heavily-after-being-struck-by-debris-during-qualifying/#more-23235

[ioan]

It's either Massa or just run the one car tomorrow. You can't have one driver qualify and another race. If Massa had withdrawn before qualifying, they could have switched drivers, but not now.

If he isn't fit to race tomorrow, there will only be 19 starters.

I thought they can use another driver who will have to start last on the grid.
So we might have only one Ferrari on track tomorrow. Let's hope Kimi can have a good race.

[harvick#1]

its looking like Buttons points lead may take another chunk out of it from vettel and webber, and RBR looks like they are gonna take out another 18 points for WCC.

will be interesting if Hamilton and Heikki can keep the pace up, cause if they can, they could have the wildcard from Kers

[harvick#1]

I thought they can use another driver who will have to start last on the grid.

is Bourdais still walking around in the pits?

[Valve Bounce]

Head injuries are not good, especially when memory loss is involved. Massa has improved immensely as a driver in recent seasons and has always been a nice guy. Hope he recovers quickly and there are no serious problems.

They don't televise qualifying here, and I've only got the F1 live timing to go by, which is saying nothing. Thanks for posting the info here so I could find out what's going on.
Well, if you had turned up to pino's chat, you would have been able to get a link and watch it live.

[Dave B]

It was a freak incident, and I'm sure Rubens feels awful.
The BBC reported that Rubens had been to the medical centre to check on Felipe. As well as being countymen, they're good friends and he must have felt terrible even though he could not possibly have been responsible for a freak accident of that nature. A decent chap, is Rubens.

[BDunnell]

It's either Massa or just run the one car tomorrow. You can't have one driver qualify and another race. If Massa had withdrawn before qualifying, they could have switched drivers, but not now.

If he isn't fit to race tomorrow, there will only be 19 starters.

That's my understanding too, so I'm sure that, no matter what some might think for whatever reason, they won't be allowed to change drivers.

[truefan72]

Why don't you give the double wdc a ing break Einstein! Plus he may be light! Quit spewing your BS conspiracy theories>

brillliant comment Tazio, now lets come off the insults and deal with the situation on hand rather than your Alonso fetish. I do give mhim much credit this year if you have bothered to read other posts, and this incident should be treated as is which incidentally has no reflection on Alonso at all but rather on the FIA & live timing system and the actual pace of the other cars prior to the timing blackout. So please don't turn this into an anti Alonso thing as he has nothing to do with my gripes in terms of the situation. jeez, its not about Alonso Tazio, get it? good!

[christophulus]

That's my understanding too, so I'm sure that, no matter what some might think for whatever reason, they won't be allowed to change drivers.

All depends on what classes as "force majeure". I'd say a freak accident in qualifying is probably fairly good grounds for a replacement driver to take over.

[BDunnell]

All depends on what classes as "force majeure". I'd say a freak accident in qualifying is probably fairly good grounds for a replacement driver to take over.

But why should the fact that this is a 'freak accident' make the situation any different to any other qualifying crash that leaves a driver unable to participate?

[Dave B]

Ferrari reportedly confirming what we all suspect: that Massa will not race tomorrow.

Edit: unconfirmed reports that he has a fractured skull

[Valve Bounce]

But why should the fact that this is a 'freak accident' make the situation any different to any other qualifying crash that leaves a driver unable to participate?
Because it was caused by another driver's car/car part?

[truefan72]

All depends on what classes as "force majeure". I'd say a freak accident in qualifying is probably fairly good grounds for a replacement driver to take over.

hmm interesting. Would seem a bit unfair for Ferrari not to be able to field a replacement driver due to an incident not caused by the team or the driver's own malaise. Fairness and good sporting would call for Badoer to start from p20 in this situation.which would make sense since rebuilding the damaged car would probably cost them a 10 place drop anyway. But if the rules are as such, then it looks like only kimi tomorrow.

As an aside, since Barrichello's car suffered a mechanical failure requiring work to be done, will he now incur a grid place penalty?

[christophulus]

But why should the fact that this is a 'freak accident' make the situation any different to any other qualifying crash that leaves a driver unable to participate?

It doesn't necessarily, but it's hardly a common occurance. The fact that the clause about "force majeure" is in there means Ferrari have a case to put to the stewards, so it's not 100% certain yet that they can't swap drivers.

[BDunnell]

Because it was caused by another driver's car/car part?

I don't see why that should make any difference. If a a car is damaged by a piece of another car during qualifying, it's surely just bad luck and there's nothing that can be done about it.

[VkmSpouge]

I hope Felipe Massa recovers quickly from this nasty incident. He did well to even apply the brakes.

Fernando Alonso getting a good pole, though I wonder how light he is. Brawn now clearly a midfield running team and they either must find a way of improving their car drastically or hope Renault and McLaren can take the fight to Red Bull for the rest of the season and take points off them that way.


As an aside, since Barrichello's car suffered a mechanical failure requiring work to be done, will he now incur a grid place penalty?

I shouldn't think so.

[veeten]

No, truefan. If based on actual racing experience, independent of whom he has raced with before, it will be Gene. Check his record, that will explain it all.

[Tazio]

brillliant comment Tazio, now lets come off the insults and deal with the situation on hand rather than your Alonso fetish. I do give mhim much credit this year if you have bothered to read other posts, and this incident should be treated as is which incidentally has no reflection on Alonso at all but rather on the FIA & live timing system and the actual pace of the other cars prior to the timing blackout. So please don't turn this into an anti Alonso thing as he has nothing to do with my gripes in terms of the situation. jeez, its not about Alonso Tazio, get it? good!It doesn't make your gripes any less annoying. It is what it is quit whinning!

[Tazio]

All depends on what classes as "force majeure". I'd say a freak accident in qualifying is probably fairly good grounds for a replacement driver to take over.Ferrari will have two cars on the track tomorow! Even if it means Enzo clinbing out of his grave and busting some heads! This is an obvious situation for implementing "force majeure". I'll bet my sig on it !

[Firstgear]

I hope Massa recovers quickly. Markabilly posted a picture on another thread. He's got a pretty bad gash over his left eye.

This make me think back to the race where Kimi's car had a piece dangling off his car. I think we got away with one that day.

Hope Massa is back for the next race - good he has three weeks to heal.

[truefan72]

It doesn't make your gripes any less annoying. It is what it is quit whinning!


the only one wh is whining is you Taz

I had move on already as I said in a post "oh well on to the race"

but apparently you just were looking for a fight or something as you seem to be the only person responding with that line of reasoning...and still don't seem to get the point so I'll leave you to your thoughts and really won't bother to continue this pointless dialogue with you.
cheers

[Psycho!]

Guys,visit mtv3.fi...There is a photo of Felipe...But take a deep breath before that...

[Dave B]

That's my understanding too, so I'm sure that, no matter what some might think for whatever reason, they won't be allowed to change drivers.

The actual rules:


19) CHANGES OF DRIVER
19.1 a) During a season each team will be permitted to use four drivers. Changes may be made at any time before the start of the qualifying practice session provided any change proposed after 16.00 on the day of scrutineering receives the consent of the stewards.
Additional changes for reasons of force majeure will be considered separately.
Any new driver may score points in the Championship.


Source: http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8694/fia.html

So it's possible that Ferrari could argue force majeure, but in all honesty I'll be amazed if they run both cars.

[ioan]

is Bourdais still walking around in the pits?

Bourdais?
If he starts last he'll finish last. It's not that he isn't a good and fast driver, however I'm fairly sure he needs half a season at least to adapt to a car that wasn't developed specifically for him.

[Somebody]

Ferrari reportedly confirming what we all suspect: that Massa will not race tomorrow.

Edit: unconfirmed reports that he has a fractured skull
If he has a fractured skull, he's out for this season and probably at least some of next year. Let's hope it's not true.

[ioan]

Guys,visit mtv3.fi...There is a photo of Felipe...But take a deep breath before that...

It was already posted in another thread. And to be honest I've seen worse in real life.

He's a lucky guy to get away with so little given the speed and nature of the object that hit him.

[ioan]

Ferrari will have two cars on the track tomorow! Even if it means Enzo clinbing out of his grave and busting some heads! This is an obvious situation for implementing "force majeure". I'll bet my sig on it !

There's no use in having 2 cars when one is starting last and they are only 4th fastest anyway.

I'll make a cross on this one.

Let's hope the rumored basal skull fracture is just a rumor and he will be 100% fit soon.

[truefan72]

the true grey are is what amounts to force majeure

my fair play sense tells me they can field a car. But a correct interpretation of the rules would indicate not being allowed to have the 2nd car. I think that this would be classified as as an on track incident and therefore be scrutinized under that manner. The circumstances are unfortunate but the incident was on track during competition.

either way the decision goes I would understand it.

[ioan]

As an aside, since Barrichello's car suffered a mechanical failure requiring work to be done, will he now incur a grid place penalty?

No.

[Sonic]

My minds gone blank. When was the last time only one car was fielded by a team?

[Somebody]

My minds gone blank. When was the last time only one car was fielded by a team?

Can't recall - the only reason it would happen would be in the event of a major qualifying accident, like this one. They can put their reserve driver in a car automatically at any point until the start of Q1, and obviously they would take the start if they got through qualifying okay.

[Dave B]

My minds gone blank. When was the last time only one car was fielded by a team?
Button's crash in Monaco 2003?

[BeansBeansBeans]

I've heard, from a respectable source, that Felipe has an 8 inch facial wound, which is thankfully superficial. He'll be kept in hospital for 2 days for observation.

[markabilly]

I've heard, from a respectable source, that Felipe has an 8 inch facial wound, which is thankfully superficial. He'll be kept in hospital for 2 days for observation.
"respectable source"? Ole sidney? Explains your defense

[BeansBeansBeans]

"respectable source"? Ole sidney? Explains your defense

Nah, I don't know the prof. But still, I've got a lot more respect for his efforts to improve safety (which are many and well documented) than yours (whingeing like a bell-end on the internet).

[Dave B]

While we await the official fuel weights, it's intersting to note that Button having his car checked over did have one unexpected benefit: he's very heavy as he didn't get to do his first qualifying run. As a result he probably has an extra 4 or 5 laps of fuel onboard, which explains his relatively poor pace but could be of enormous use during the race.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8168859.stm

[Dave B]

Official statement regarding Massa:


"After the accident during the qualifying session of the Grand Prix of Hungary, Felipe Massa was airlifted to the AEK hospital in Budapest," the statement said. "Felipe was conscious at the arrival at the hospital and his general conditions remain stable.

"Following a complete medical examination it emerged that he had suffered a cut on his forehead, a bone damage of his skull and a brain concussion. These conditions need to be operated on after which he will remain under observation in intensive care."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77276

[BeansBeansBeans]

Oh dear, worse news than I expected. Fingers crossed for him.

[ioan]

I've heard, from a respectable source, that Felipe has an 8 inch facial wound, which is thankfully superficial. He'll be kept in hospital for 2 days for observation.

8 inch? With all the respect your respectable source should learn to use a ruler.
We can see his face in that picture and there is no cut all over it.

I've just read that he's in induced coma for the time being and he will stay in hospital for the next 48 hours.

[Dave B]

We can see his face in that picture and there is no cut all over it.
Can "we"? Personally I can't see through his helmet, but good luck if you can.

[ioan]

Official statement regarding Massa:


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77276

That's bad news.

[BeansBeansBeans]

8 inch? With all the respect your respectable source should learn to use a ruler.

So, Felipe is quite seriously injured after all. But on the plus side, Ioan gets to score points on the web.

[markabilly]

8 inch? With all the respect your respectable source should learn to use a ruler.
We can see his face in that picture and there is no cut all over it.

I've just read that he's in induced coma for the time being and he will stay in hospital for the next 48 hours.
Unfortunaley now from autosport:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77276

Massa was airlifted to a Budapest hospital, where he remains in stable condition.
Ferrari said in a statement that Massa will need to undergo surgery and will have to stay under observation in intensive care for an undisclosed period of time.
"After the accident during the qualifying session of the Grand Prix of Hungary, Felipe Massa was airlifted to the AEK hospital in Budapest," the statement said. "Felipe was conscious at the arrival at the hospital and his general conditions remain stable.
"Following a complete medical examination it emerged that he had suffered a cut on his forehead, a bone damage of his skull and a brain concussion. These conditions need to be operated on after which he will remain under observation in intensive care."

[Somebody]

Oh dear, worse news than I expected. Fingers crossed for him.

Yeah - with a fractured skull - and head surgery - I really can't see him being allowed to drive an F1 car in anger for the remainder of this season, and quite possibly at least part of next.

[ioan]

Can "we"? Personally I can't see through his helmet, but good luck if you can.

I'll keep at repeating that he stated facial wound. That's all. I'm not in the mood on having an argument before Felipe is out of danger.

[markabilly]

So, Felipe is quite seriously injured after all. But on the plus side, Ioan gets to score points on the web.
more piss poor attempts at humor from you on a serious accident.

[ioan]

Unfortunaley now from autosport:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77276

Massa was airlifted to a Budapest hospital, where he remains in stable condition.
Ferrari said in a statement that Massa will need to undergo surgery and will have to stay under observation in intensive care for an undisclosed period of time.
"After the accident during the qualifying session of the Grand Prix of Hungary, Felipe Massa was airlifted to the AEK hospital in Budapest," the statement said. "Felipe was conscious at the arrival at the hospital and his general conditions remain stable.
"Following a complete medical examination it emerged that he had suffered a cut on his forehead, a bone damage of his skull and a brain concussion. These conditions need to be operated on after which he will remain under observation in intensive care."

Now I really wish they would have flown him to Vienna. :(

[BeansBeansBeans]

I'll keep at repeating that he stated facial wound. That's all. I'm not in the mood on having an argument before Felipe is out of danger.

If you're not in the mood for an argument, don't start one, you absolute thundering backside.

[BeansBeansBeans]

more piss poor attempts at humor from you on a serious accident.

Nah, I'm not making light of the accident. But when dealing with the likes of you and Ioan I find I have to laugh or I'd go insane.

[Dave B]

Now I really wish they would have flown him to Vienna. :(
You've said so before. May I ask, what knowledge do you posess that makes you so sure that medically it would have benefitted Felipe? Not starting an argument, I'd just be genuinely interested to know what advantages the hospital has in Vienna over the one in Budapest.

[markabilly]

Now I really wish they would have flown him to Vienna. :(
I do as well.

problem with both head and spine injuries, is they can appear pretty minor and the accident causing them very minor, and then progress to very bad

This accident did not appear to be minor at all.

[ioan]

Nah, I'm not making light of the accident. But when dealing with the likes of you and Ioan I find I have to laugh or I'd go insane.

Well, than you better go insane or even better simply just go. :(

[leopard]

He remains in stable condition, he might feel nauseous... Whether or not doctor allow him to race, might as well him to take rest until his health declared fit for racing again.

Get well Felippe

[Dave B]

I do as well.
Blimey, this Vienna hospital must have a good reputation around the world. Personally I'd never heard of it. Obviously you two must have a good basis for wanting Massa to have been taken there - after all you clearly wouldn't involve in pointless speculation based on very limited knowlegde of the situation, heaven forbid! - so maybe you could explain why Vienna would have been a more sensible choice than Budapest.

[markabilly]

You've said so before. May I ask, what knowledge do you posess that makes you so sure that medically it would have benefitted Felipe? Not starting an argument, I'd just be genuinely interested to know what advantages the hospital has in Vienna over the one in Budapest.
well that is just a start as to why

http://neurosurgery.uthscsa.edu/faculty/day.asp

and it is the closest to there

And you stupid comment ( "after all you clearly wouldn't involve in pointless speculation based on very limited knowlegde of the situation, heaven forbid!") is not well taken, at all. Both you and bean have engaged in repeated personal attacks, totally unwarranted given the situation, and unlike others around here, such Starter, do not believe in banning folks,

that is until now, I would ban both of you for this nonsense.

[ioan]

You've said so before. May I ask, what knowledge do you posess that makes you so sure that medically it would have benefitted Felipe? Not starting an argument, I'd just be genuinely interested to know what advantages the hospital has in Vienna over the one in Budapest.

Let's just say I know both countries and their respective health system very well.
I live in Vienna and have family living in Hungary, inclusive Budapest.

The hospitals in Vienna have the advantage of highly trained and highly experienced doctors in cases like this one due to seeing and treating such injuries on a daily basis.

Also the University Clinic from Vienna is one of the most renowned in the world.

[Dave B]

It's weird, but I live in England and when Surtees suffered his injury at Brands Hatch I had no idea whether he'd have been better off in Darent Valley (the nearest A&E), Medway, Kings (the internet says they have some brilliant doctors), Royal London, or whatever.

Clearly I should use Google more :rolleyes:

[ioan]

It's weird, but I live in England and when Surtees suffered his injury at Brands Hatch I had no idea whether he'd have been better off in Darent Valley (the nearest A&E), Medway, Kings (the internet says they have some brilliant doctors), Royal London, or whatever.

Clearly I should use Google more :rolleyes:

I don't find this funny at all.
I just hope the team thought about what it's best for him once his situation was stable and he could be moved.

[Dave B]

I don't find this funny at all.
I just hope the team thought about what it's best for him once his situation was stable and he could be moved.
It's not meant to be funny, merely a suggestion that maybe - just maybe - the professional medical teams at the scene knew more about the circumstances than a couple of random people watching on the telly.

[markabilly]

Clearly I should use Google more :rolleyes:
I did not, Dr. Day is a very fine doctor of whom I have personal knowledge,

and a specialist in basal skull fractures

[Dave B]

I did not, Dr. Day is a very fine doctor of whom I have personal knowledge,

and a specialist in basal skull fractures
But according to the link you provided he practices in San Antonio. Excellent though he may be, I suspect he may have been of limited use today. :dozey:

[markabilly]

Dr. Day has also completed a fellowship in skull base surgery and anatomy at the University of Vienna's Neurosurgical Department, under the tutelage of Professor Wolfgang T. Koos. The Vienna experience began Dr. Day's interest in minimally invasive and Endoscopic neurosurgery while working with Prof. Manfred Tschabitscher, one of the leading surgical and Endoscopic neuroanatomists in the world. This experience led to Dr. Day incorporating endoscopy and minimally invasive techniques in all spine and brain surgery cases when appropriate, resulting in over ten years of experience with minimally invasive neurosurgical techniques. He has been the Director of Cerebrovascular Surgery at the Lahey Clinic in Boston, MA, the Director of Neurosurgery at the House Ear Clinic in Los Angeles, CA, and most recently the Director of the Center for Cerebrovascular Surgery and Stroke at Allegheny General Hospital in Pittsburgh, PA.

You have no idea what i really know, except how stupid your attempts at personal attacks really are

[Dave B]

You're correct, I don't know, which is why I ask questions rather than making blind assumptions.

So Dr Day trained there under another excellent doctor. Was that doctor on call today? Was his experience deemed relevant to Massa's condition? Would similar experience have been unavailable in Budapest? Again, just asking questions becase as a TV viewer hundreds of miles away I'm certain that my knowledge of the situation was nothing compared to the medical crews present on the scene.

If you want to presume that me pointing this out is a personal attack then you go right ahead, but I assure you I'm happy to leave decisions like this in the hands of the professionals.

[Dave B]

Alonso on ~12 laps worth of fuel, Button heaviest of the top ten on ~25 laps, according to initial reports. Expect the weights very soon.

[ioan]

You're correct, I don't know, which is why I ask questions rather than making blind assumptions.

So Dr Day trained there under another excellent doctor. Was that doctor on call today? Was his experience deemed relevant to Massa's condition?

Yes and yes.
"minimally invasive and Endoscopic neurosurgery" would be the best available at this moment for Felipe in order to get things done fast and have a speedy recovery.



Would similar experience have been unavailable in Budapest?

No, because these are the doctors who research and develop themselves these surgical procedures.

There might be someone available with similar knowledge but not with the same experience.

[ioan]

Alonso on ~12 laps worth of fuel,...

As expected.

[Dave B]

Hamilton (McLaren): 650,5
Kovalainen (McLaren): 655,5
Räikkönen (Ferrari): 651,5
Kubica (BMW-Sauber): 666 *
Heidfeld (BMW-Sauber): 658 *
Alonso (Renault): 637,5
Piquet (Renault): 667,7 *
Trulli (Toyota): 671,3 *
Glock (Toyota): 679,2 *
Alguersuari (Toro Rosso): 675,5 *
Buemi (Toro Rosso): 671,5 *
Webber (Red Bull Racing): 652
Vettel (Red Bull Racing): 655
Rosberg (Williams): 654
Nakajima (Williams): 658
Sutil (Force India): 683,5 *
Fisichella (Force India): 680,5 *
Button (Brawn): 664,5
Barrichello (Brawn): 689 *

Alonso lightest by some margin, and as predicted Button's one qually run saved him some fuel for tomorrow.

[Somebody]

At the same time, a 140-odd mile helicopter journey with a head injury isn't something you undertake unless you're sure it's the only option...

[BDunnell]

No, because these are the doctors who research and develop themselves these surgical procedures.

There might be someone available with similar knowledge but not with the same experience.

But it cannot be expected that someone with the right specialisms will automatically be on hand nearby to deal with a particular situation. This, after all, is why things happen like we saw this week when a swine flu patient from Scotland with certain specific complications had to be flown to Sweden for treatment. I don't think the British NHS can in any way be criticised for this — it's just a fact of life.

[BDunnell]

Oh, and I too think that some of the comments on this thread are the very embodiment of pointless armchair speculation by people who, with the best will in the world, don't know better than those on hand. When it comes to medical matters, I would tend to visit a GP rather than PM ioan or markabilly.

[Somebody]

But it cannot be expected that someone with the right specialisms will automatically be on hand nearby to deal with a particular situation. This, after all, is why things happen like we saw this week when a swine flu patient from Scotland with certain specific complications had to be flown to Sweden for treatment. I don't think the British NHS can in any way be criticised for this — it's just a fact of life.

Well, in that case, it was something rather than someone that wasn't at hand (there are only five beds in the UK, at one hospital in England, with the relevant equipment - a machine to oxygenate blood outside the body, IIRC - and they were all full).

[BDunnell]

Well, in that case, it was something rather than someone that wasn't at hand (there are only five beds in the UK, at one hospital in England, with the relevant equipment - a machine to oxygenate blood outside the body, IIRC - and they were all full).

Thanks for the correction. I still think my point is valid, though. There will always be instances like that.

[jens]

I think Massa's accident would deserve its own thread in this forum. :)

But I'm going to post a few comments on qualifying:
Renault has for some reason had tendency to fuel Alonso light for the race this year - I think he'll drop out of podium contention in the race. Red Bulls are still the main favourites.

Hopefully Hamilton will manage T1 fine this time to challenge for podium. Rosberg is a strong podium contender too. Nakajima shined with P3 in Q2, but he continually tends to struggle to put together a consistently good quali.

A slight disappointment by Ferrari, but they have been stronger in the race in '09, so Kimi could rise a bit upwards. If Toyota is so "lost" even in suitable conditions (hot), then this year is a complete write-off. Although Trulli lost due to that Massa incident too, which didn't enable him to post a time at the end of the session. With a few minutes to go JT was still sixth...

Force India a bit of disappointment, but they have managed to shine in the race after struggling in qualy in previous occasions too.

And finally - if Brawn was given a benefit of doubt after the last two races, then now it's clear - they are dropping backwards. Button has a lot of work in his hands to defend his WDC lead until the end of the season.

[ioan]

At the same time, a 140-odd mile helicopter journey with a head injury isn't something you undertake unless you're sure it's the only option...

That's sure. However once the in depth examination is done they can decide if it's yes or no.

Anyways it seems that the surgery was done and it was only about fixing some small fracture on his skull.

[ioan]

When it comes to medical matters, I would tend to visit a GP rather than PM ioan or markabilly.

I didn't say I want to diagnose him or perform the surgery, just pointed out that there is better medical service available around the corner. :(

[ioan]

But it cannot be expected that someone with the right specialisms will automatically be on hand nearby to deal with a particular situation.

Believe me, these guys are available in the very next minute if needed.
They also do have several whole hospitals dedicated only to heavy accidents here.

[BDunnell]

I didn't say I want to diagnose him or perform the surgery, just pointed out that there is better medical service available around the corner. :(

Better according to whom? I don't think I could make such a judgment.

[ioan]

Better according to whom? I don't think I could make such a judgment.

According to pretty much every specialized publication in the domain. You will be hard pressed to find better medicine specialists and also plenty of them in one city anywhere else in Europe.

[ClarkFan]

Hamilton (McLaren): 650,5
Kovalainen (McLaren): 655,5
Räikkönen (Ferrari): 651,5
Kubica (BMW-Sauber): 666 *
Heidfeld (BMW-Sauber): 658 *
Alonso (Renault): 637,5
Piquet (Renault): 667,7 *
Trulli (Toyota): 671,3 *
Glock (Toyota): 679,2 *
Alguersuari (Toro Rosso): 675,5 *
Buemi (Toro Rosso): 671,5 *
Webber (Red Bull Racing): 652
Vettel (Red Bull Racing): 655
Rosberg (Williams): 654
Nakajima (Williams): 658
Sutil (Force India): 683,5 *
Fisichella (Force India): 680,5 *
Button (Brawn): 664,5
Barrichello (Brawn): 689 *

Alonso lightest by some margin, and as predicted Button's one qually run saved him some fuel for tomorrow.
What did they put in RB's car? Extra bricks? :eek:

ClarkFan

[Valve Bounce]

I don't see why that should make any difference. If a a car is damaged by a piece of another car during qualifying, it's surely just bad luck and there's nothing that can be done about it.

Well, maybe you'd like to define "Force Majeure" that would apply to allow a swap in drivers, because I can't think of any.

[Valve Bounce]

While we await the official fuel weights, it's intersting to note that Button having his car checked over did have one unexpected benefit: he's very heavy as he didn't get to do his first qualifying run. As a result he probably has an extra 4 or 5 laps of fuel onboard, which explains his relatively poor pace but could be of enormous use during the race.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8168859.stm

I didn't know the rise in petrol prices would affect bunsen so badly. :p :

[ClarkFan]

Hamilton (McLaren): 650,5
Kovalainen (McLaren): 655,5
Räikkönen (Ferrari): 651,5
Kubica (BMW-Sauber): 666 *
Heidfeld (BMW-Sauber): 658 *
Alonso (Renault): 637,5
Piquet (Renault): 667,7 *
Trulli (Toyota): 671,3 *
Glock (Toyota): 679,2 *
Alguersuari (Toro Rosso): 675,5 *
Buemi (Toro Rosso): 671,5 *
Webber (Red Bull Racing): 652
Vettel (Red Bull Racing): 655
Rosberg (Williams): 654
Nakajima (Williams): 658
Sutil (Force India): 683,5 *
Fisichella (Force India): 680,5 *
Button (Brawn): 664,5
Barrichello (Brawn): 689 *

Alonso lightest by some margin, and as predicted Button's one qually run saved him some fuel for tomorrow.
Ok, I never have been able to retain the idea of how much the time penalty for carrying extra weight is. How much of Button's 0.9 sec deficit to Vettel would come directly from the extra 12kg? To complicate matters, I would also guess that since he only had an out lap and his timed lap, that there would also be some time penalty from not having his tire fully up to temperature. I am curious about the speed comparison between the Brawns and Red Bulls and Brawn's problems in qualifying certainly left those questions unanswered. (The very least of issues today, I know.)

Button desperately needs a good start tomorrow - getting stuck behind Trulli or Nakajima with a heavy fuel load would kill his chances of having a good result. Any potential benefit from running a few fast laps at the end of a longer stint would long gone by the time Button gets free.

ClarkFan

[woody2goody]

I think it's only about 4 tenths in relation to Button.

Look at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/f1mole/2009/07/bbc-sports-fueladjusted-hungar.html

[Valve Bounce]

I think Massa's accident would deserve its own thread in this forum. :)

But I'm going to post a few comments on qualifying:
Renault has for some reason had tendency to fuel Alonso light for the race this year - I think he'll drop out of podium contention in the race. Red Bulls are still the main favourites.

.I'm surprised at the light fuel load. Basically, Alonso has to open up a sufficient lead so that he will come out around P3 or P4. This will enable him to put in some fast laps once they pit. His race will be very difficult if he comes out behind a slower car and gets held up, as it is very difficult to overtake here.

[ClarkFan]

I think it's only about 4 tenths in relation to Button.

Look at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/f1mole/2009/07/bbc-sports-fueladjusted-hungar.html
Thanks. But that analysis still leaves the question of how much he lost by only going out at the very end of the session and not getting fully in the flow with hot tires. At this race, if Button loses 2-3 places at the start he will need some breaks to get as high at 6th or 7th.

ClarkFan

[Valve Bounce]

Thanks. But that analysis still leaves the question of how much he lost by only going out at the very end of the session and not getting fully in the flow with hot tires. At this race, if Button loses 2-3 places at the start he will need some breaks to get as high at 6th or 7th.

ClarkFan

No rain forecast. His chances don't look good if he is going to start with such a heavy fuel load. To make it worse, if gets stuck behind someone who can start fast with Kers, but then laps slow (like Kovi) then he is in big trouble just to score meaningful points.

[woody2goody]

I think Button will have to do it with strategy if he is to reach the podium or even the top 5.

I think he can do it, you never know what can happen in the first corner, but it will be tough. he's going to have to get a move on and do some overtaking in the first 5 laps. If he's 5th or 6th after a few laps, then he's got a shot.

[Valve Bounce]

I think Button will have to do it with strategy if he is to reach the podium or even the top 5.

I think he can do it, you never know what can happen in the first corner, but it will be tough. he's going to have to get a move on and do some overtaking in the first 5 laps. If he's 5th or 6th after a few laps, then he's got a shot.

Woody, this is Hungary where overtaking is almost impossible. Basically bunsen was caught with a huge fuel load from a buggered up qualifying session.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77283