USA is Toast

[Roamy]

Look at this sh!t we are allowing a Islam conference in Chicago.

Islamic Supremacist Group Holds First U.S. Conference
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533525,00.html?test=latestnews

Ronald Reagan has to be clawing at the lid of his casket as does
John Wayne and John Kennedy with many others.

We spend ourselves in bankruptcy fighting these pukes and then allow them to hold a conference in our own country.

Well it was a good run for us but now we elected those who are turning us into a corrupt, spinless, drug infested group of floundering idiots. Fuch I may as well move to Holland.

OOOH but wait there is still Latin America.

[Tazio]

(PRWEB) July 17, 2009 -- On the occasion of the destruction of the Islamic State, Hizb ut-Tahrir America is holding a public conference on July 19, 2009. Under the title of "Fall of Capitalism and Rise of Islam," the conference will address the era of global change. It will present Islam as a platform for an ideological alternative to replace a failing system that has failed the whole of humanity. From the midst of Africa to the cities of America, people are suffering from the failing policies that have left hundreds of millions of people in hunger and poverty. The conference will emphasize the importance of the Caliphate State (Khilafah) that will introduce a new world order based on equality, justice and the well-being of humanity.

As a religion embraced by more than 1.5 billion people, Islam is experiencing an international revival. The conference will address some aspects of the global activism for the Islamic revival worldwide.

Hizb-ut-Tahrir is a political party whose ideology is Islam. It is working in the Muslim world so that the Muslim people adopt Islam as their cause in restoring the Islamic way of life through re-establishing the Khilafah (Caliphate) Hizb-ut-Tahrir's purpose is to revive the Muslim world from its declining state, and to liberate it from man made systems and laws. It also works to remove the domination and influence of the Western states over Muslims. Hizb ut-Tahrir is a non-violent organization, and has no history of such incidents since its inception more that 55 years ago.

The conference is open to the public, Muslims and non-Muslims, and the attendance is free. There will also be a press conference immediately following the event.
It says it's open to the public. So I would think that if they are doing this to recruit terrorists The Great Stae of Illinois,
and The US. Goverment can have a front row seat and arrest these terrorists
as it is a firmly stated policy that the recruitment of terrorists and the forming of terrorist networks in this country is against U.S. Law.

Adds a whole new meaning to the expression "Bring 'em on" :p :
Just line up the paddy-wagons and take them to the nearest waterboarding facility!
By The Almighty!

[Roamy]

Just line up the paddy-wagons and take them to the nearest waterboarding facility!
By The Almighty!

I say take them to Winchester Park!!

[Eki]

Toast? I'll drink to that.

[Easy Drifter]

Neat play on words, Eki. Hic!

[Tazio]

Nice homonym Eki!

xVS4a0MAiu8

[SportscarBruce]

Look at this sh!t we are allowing a Islam conference in Chicago.

Islamic Supremacist Group Holds First U.S. Conference
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533525,00.html?test=latestnews

Ronald Reagan has to be clawing at the lid of his casket as does
John Wayne and John Kennedy with many others.

We spend ourselves in bankruptcy fighting these pukes and then allow them to hold a conference in our own country.

Well it was a good run for us but now we elected those who are turning us into a corrupt, spinless, drug infested group of floundering idiots. Fuch I may as well move to Holland.

OOOH but wait there is still Latin America.

There's a reason a Jewish ACLU lawyer fought for the right of the National Socialist march in Skoke, IL. By allowing the march the movement came across as a group of odd-ball attention seeking extremist. This is the beauty of free speech, it stands and falls on the merits. Just like torture, government sponsored censorship is usually self-defeating. Civics 101...

[Eki]

Nice homonym Eki!

xVS4a0MAiu8
Groucho Marx isn't dead. He's now a member of the Finnish Parliament:

http://www.eduskunta.fi/triphome/bin/hex3000.sh?LAJITNIMI=%26z$

[Jag_Warrior]

There's a reason a Jewish ACLU lawyer fought for the right of the National Socialist march in Skoke, IL. By allowing the march the movement came across as a group of odd-ball attention seeking extremist. This is the beauty of free speech, it stands and falls on the merits. Just like torture, government sponsored censorship is usually self-defeating. Civics 101...

Exactly right. We aren't strong because we imitate the bad habits of our enemies. We're strong because we're (often) willing to let our own people decide for themselves.

We've had at least one President who was (allegedly) in the KKK. We have at least one sitting U.S. Senator who was in the KKK. We have national socialists, skinheads, Evangelical religious extremists, communists, eco extremists, radical feminists, Black nationalists and every other whack job group that is allowed to exist here (for better or worse).

Until someone blows something up or shoots someone, I don't want the government deciding who is or is not allowed to assemble here. At some point, they might get around to me.

Senatus Populusque Romanus

[SportscarBruce]

Well said. Freedom of assembly, freedom of speech - those are the foundations of freedom.

The best response to a conference of Islamic extremist is not censorship but rather a counter-display illuminating life under the knife blade of Sharia law.

[janvanvurpa]

Nice homonym Eki!

xVS4a0MAiu8


The way the (non) dialog works in these excellent clip is exactly how US politics and these forum so called discussions' have gone for the 8 years I've seen them.

But this stuff is at least funny.
Time to see the whole movie again.

[SportscarBruce]

The way the (non) dialog works in these excellent clip is exactly how US politics and these forum so called discussions' have gone for the 8 years I've seen them.

A topic gets steered from

'Islamic Supremacist Group Holds First U.S. Conference! The end is nigh!'

to a Marx Brothers movie clip.

Yep, that's pretty much the pattern...

[Roamy]

yea just hang on Sportscar and we will have hitler in this thread real soon.

So some are saying that it is ok for kim jong to hold a conference over here.
Oh and throw in Armedjafuch too.

The bands of freedom have been stretched to the max in every direction.

[Eki]

So some are saying that it is ok for kim jong to hold a conference over here.
Oh and throw in Armedjafuch too.

Why wouldn't you let them hold a conference? Are you afraid that they'd become popular and have a lot of followers in the US?

[Roamy]

Why wouldn't you let them hold a conference? Are you afraid that they'd become popular and have a lot of followers in the US?

yes right on eki look how many are following Obama down the path to hell.

Hey buy maybe we can sell Louisiana back to the frogs

[Eki]

Hey buy maybe we can sell Louisiana back to the frogs
Or Arizona back to the coyotes.

[SportscarBruce]

yes right on eki look how many are following Obama down the path to hell.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRq6Y4NmB6U

:p

[Tazio]

:rolleyes: Score one for S.c.B.
:rotflmao:

[Tazio]

LOU9xZ4zcss&NR=1&feature=fvwp

In the words of a Great American Coservative:
"I'm Paul Harvey, and now you know the rest of the story
Good day!!

[Roamy]

Well maybe McCain should have enlisted this guy's help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsBmAEv2lC4&feature=related

[Tazio]

Well maybe McCain should have enlisted this guy's help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsBmAEv2lC4&feature=related
I wonder what his opinnion is of Justice Clarence "Uncle" Thomas :mark:

[GridGirl]

One convention is hardly going to start a revolution.

There does seem to be alot of hatred towards the muslim faith from certain American forumers which I suppose is borne directly from the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Previously to 9/11 there had never really been any major terrorist attack in the US. Surely therefore it was inevitable at some point that a terrorist attack on a grand scale was eventually going to happen on US soil? It just happened that a (minority) bunch of Muslim nutters did it instead of any other group of nutters. I think the contempt for the Muslim faith as a whole is taking it a bit too far.

[Tazio]

One convention is hardly going to start a revolution.

There does seem to be alot of hatred towards the muslim faith from certain American forumers which I suppose is borne directly from the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Previously to 9/11 there had never really been any major terrorist attack in the US. Surely therefore it was inevitable at some point that a terrorist attack on a grand scale was eventually going to happen on US soil? It just happened that a (minority) bunch of Muslim nutters did it instead of any other group of nutters. I think the contempt for the Muslim faith as a whole is taking it a bit too far.9/11 did provoke a lot of Anti Islamic sentiment.
However America is a country of immigrants with an inordinate amount of us who are anti ethnic-anything.
They will agree with you that America is a "Melting Pot" yet reject homogenization.
They hate Jews, Catholics, Muslims, the French, Russians, Orientals, Blacks, Latinos, Communists, Socialists,
the elderly for getting in the way, and the poor for being needy,
Basically anything that isn't WASP. On top of that were greedy.
The good news is these people are slowly disappearing, through death, and other evolutionary culling processes.
The Good ol' Boys aren't going to be around forever. But what is left of them are really dug in!

[GridGirl]

Ith that much hate flowing it's amazing you don't self implode. :s

[Tazio]

Ith that much hate flowing it's amazing you don't self implode. :s

Sensible Americans simply tune these people out!

[555-04Q2]

Look at this sh!t we are allowing a Islam conference in Chicago.

Islamic Supremacist Group Holds First U.S. Conference
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533525,00.html?test=latestnews

Ronald Reagan has to be clawing at the lid of his casket as does
John Wayne and John Kennedy with many others.

We spend ourselves in bankruptcy fighting these pukes and then allow them to hold a conference in our own country.

Well it was a good run for us but now we elected those who are turning us into a corrupt, spinless, drug infested group of floundering idiots. Fuch I may as well move to Holland.

OOOH but wait there is still Latin America.

So America is not the land of the free then as they always boast. Dentists and Doctors can hold conventions but you cant hold an Islamic conference.

Hmmm....

[Roamy]

One convention is hardly going to start a revolution.

There does seem to be alot of hatred towards the muslim faith from certain American forumers which I suppose is borne directly from the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Previously to 9/11 there had never really been any major terrorist attack in the US. Surely therefore it was inevitable at some point that a terrorist attack on a grand scale was eventually going to happen on US soil? It just happened that a (minority) bunch of Muslim nutters did it instead of any other group of nutters. I think the contempt for the Muslim faith as a whole is taking it a bit too far.

Really - to mention a few

the MUSLIM bombing of PanAmFlight 103!

the MUSLIM bombing of the WorldTrade Center in 1993!

the MUSLIM bombing of the Marinebarracks in Lebanon!

the MUSLIM bombing of the military barracks in Saudi Arabia!

the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa!

the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE!

the MUSLIM attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11/2001!

[Eki]

Really - to mention a few

the MUSLIM bombing of PanAmFlight 103!

the MUSLIM bombing of the WorldTrade Center in 1993!

the MUSLIM bombing of the Marinebarracks in Lebanon!

the MUSLIM bombing of the military barracks in Saudi Arabia!

the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa!

the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE!

the MUSLIM attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11/2001!

The CHRISTIAN carpet bombing of Dresden in 1945!

The CHRISTIAN bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with atom bombs in 1945!

The CHRISTIAN bombing of Korea in the 1950s!

The CHRISTIAN bombing of the Vietnamese with napalm in the 1960s and the 1970s!

The CHRISTIAN missile attack on Lebanese civilians in the 1980s.

The CHRISTIAN bombing of Baghdad and Belgrad in the 1990s!

The CHRISTIAN bombing of Baghdad again in 2003!

[Camelopard]

.... anti muslim vitriol.....


You yanks didn't seem to get at all upset when Timothy McVeigh and his looney mates bombed the Oklahoma building in 1995!


Oh I forgot he was a former army veteran and white, guess that makes it all ok then! :)


Timothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 – June 11, 2001) was a United States Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army) veteran and security guard who was convicted of bombing the Alfred P. Murrah Building (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_P._Murrah_Federal_Building) in Oklahoma City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City) on April 19, 1995, the second anniversary of the Waco Siege (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege), as revenge or to inspire revolt against what he considered a tyrannical federal government. The bombing killed 168 people, and was the deadliest act of terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism) within the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)......


above from wiki.


Gridgirl's comment stated "in the US", go on say that Embassies and ships and army bases are US soil............ to quote vop "yawn".

[GridGirl]

Really - to mention a few

the MUSLIM bombing of PanAmFlight 103!

the MUSLIM bombing of the WorldTrade Center in 1993!

the MUSLIM bombing of the Marinebarracks in Lebanon!

the MUSLIM bombing of the military barracks in Saudi Arabia!

the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa!

the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE!

the MUSLIM attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11/2001!

Lebanon! Scotland! Africa! Saudi Arabia are not on US soil, well atleast not in any atlas I own!

[Tazio]

You yanks didn't seem to get at all upset when Timothy McVeigh and his looney mates bombed the Oklahoma building in 1995!
That's right in fact we gave him the "Keys to the Kingdom"

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/yir/interactive/gallery/frameset.7.exclude.html

McVeigh, who admitted guilt, was the first federal prisoner to be executed in 38 years.
That's the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this forum!

Which is only surpassed by a sincere, and authentic urge, and offer to kick your pasty white @$$

[chuck34]

You yanks didn't seem to get at all upset when Timothy McVeigh and his looney mates bombed the Oklahoma building in 1995!

You damn well better believe we were pissed! That's why we put him to death. What are you talking about?



Gridgirl's comment stated "in the US", go on say that Embassies and ships and army bases are US soil............ to quote vop "yawn".

So you don't care that Embassies and ships are soveregn "soil"? Cool so we can go ahead and take out any of your Embassies or Navel vessels we want, any time we want, and not expect any retaliation at all? Awesome.

[Camelopard]

That's right in fact we gave him the "Keys to the Kingdom"

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/yir/interactive/gallery/frameset.7.exclude.html

That's the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this forum!

Which is only surpassed by a sincere, and authentic urge, and offer to kick your pasty white @$$


Tazio, I'm not sure who you are responding to as I didn't make any comment about his execution nor did I point anywhere to CNN.

I agree that he got the punishment he deserved, my point being that you have had 'home grown' terrorists way before 9/11 and that I don't remember the media in the US being in such a lather over his hienious crime compared to 9/11. In fact I dare say that to some sick indivuals he has become a poster boy for his perceived anti establishment views/actions. Without knowing any posters personally, judging by some of the things that certain people post, indicates to me that their own views on society and government are perhaps very similar to McVeighs.

Every time I have mentioned his name on this forum it has been ignored which suggests to me that what he did 'was' accepted by mainstream America because he was 'white'.

[chuck34]

Tazio, I'm not sure who you are responding to as I didn't make any comment about his execution nor did I point anywhere to CNN.

I agree that he got the punishment he deserved, my point being that you have had 'home grown' terrorists way before 9/11 and that I don't remember the media in the US being in such a lather over his hienious crime compared to 9/11. In fact I dare say that to some sick indivuals he has become a poster boy for his perceived anti establishment views/actions. Without knowing any posters personally, judging by some of the things that certain people post, indicates to me that their own views on society and government are perhaps very similar to McVeighs.

Every time I have mentioned his name on this forum it has been ignored which suggests to me that what he did 'was' accepted by mainstream America because he was 'white'.

I must have missed your past references to him because I would and will denounce him at every change I get. The man was sick, twisted, and evil through and through. And there was quite a bit of media attention over here about him. Maybe it didn't get as much international exposure?

And you are right some sick individuals have adopted him as some sort of poster boy. But the same can be said of bin Laden.

Color has/had nothing to do with any of this. Except to individuals (on both sides of this issue) where color is everything.

[Easy Drifter]

What bothers me with several of the posts and posters in this thread is the wholesale commendtion of the Muslim, or Moslem faith.
The vast majority are regular people.
There certainly are the extremist Islamics, but they are a minority.
We also have extremist Christians, the wack jobs in Ireland just been two sects. I mean both the Catholic and Protestant extremists.
In the meantime Eki is being his usual asinine self.

[Tazio]

Tazio, I'm not sure who you are responding to as I didn't make any comment about his execution nor did I point anywhere to CNN.

I agree that he got the punishment he deserved, my point being that you have had 'home grown' terrorists way before 9/11 and that I don't remember the media in the US being in such a lather over his hienious crime compared to 9/11. In fact I dare say that to some sick indivuals he has become a poster boy for his perceived anti establishment views/actions. Without knowing any posters personally, judging by some of the things that certain people post, indicates to me that their own views on society and government are perhaps very similar to McVeighs.

Every time I have mentioned his name on this forum it has been ignored which suggests to me that what he did 'was' accepted by mainstream America because he was 'white'.

Am I dreaming or did you say that this monsters deed was accepted by mainstream America?
The reality is we understand his motive,(as unworthy and evil that his vindictive action was)
The way the Feds handed Waco, and especially Ruby Ridge doesn't sit well with a lot of Americans.
But as a society this man’s actions were viewed by mainstream Americans the same way all sane people view these atrocities.
It was the action of a murderous sociopath. He deserved something worse than death.
Real Americans, have questioned many heavy handed tactics of federal law enforcement agencies.
If anything McVeigh’s attack hurt the cause of those who were trying to get federal accountability through lawsuits and investigations.

[Camelopard]

Am I dreaming or did you say that this monsters deed was accepted by mainstream America?.


Not a good choice of words that I used, I guess that what I should have said was that his actions seemed to be accepted by some sections of mainstream America. Have any muslims in the US ever stated their support for 9/11? I must admit I don't know, if so what has been the reaction?

Without wanting to highjack the thread, as an outsider it seems to me that people like him and others like the unabomber(sp?) and more recently the person who planted the bomb at the olmypics in Atlanta do get made out to be heros in some way. With the Atlanta bomber it seemed to be more of a case of admiration for the fact that he evaded capture for so long.

[Roamy]

Lebanon! Scotland! Africa! Saudi Arabia are not on US soil, well atleast not in any atlas I own!

So you are saying that you condone attacks on anyone who is not a native of the country. Say England has a squad in Italy then you would say it is fine for the terrorists to attack.

You are probably part of the world problem along with EKI.

[GridGirl]

I dont for one second condone terrorism in any way shape or form as I pointed out in my original post. As someone who is not from the US I think the attitudes of some of the American forumers toward people of the Muslim faith is to me appauling. Again to back up what Easy Drifter said, the majority of people from the Muslim faith are just regular normal people. Its is only the extremely tiny minority that are terrorists. I fail to see how you can condem milions of people for just something like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population.

[Tazio]

Without wanting to highjack the thread, as an outsider it seems to me that people like him and others like the unabomber(sp?) and more recently the person who planted the bomb at the olmypics in Atlanta do get made out to be heros in some way. With the Atlanta bomber it seemed to be more of a case of admiration for the fact that he evaded capture for so long.Do you mean in the same sense that Brits admire “Jack the Ripper”?
Or modern Romans' hero-worship of Caligula :confused:

[Eki]

So you are saying that you condone attacks on anyone who is not a native of the country. Say England has a squad in Italy then you would say it is fine for the terrorists to attack.

You are probably part of the world problem along with EKI.
When there were German troops in France and Norway, the local resistance (or you may call them terrorists) thought it was fine to attack them.

[555-04Q2]

What bothers me with several of the posts and posters in this thread is the wholesale commendtion of the Muslim, or Moslem faith.
The vast majority are regular people.
There certainly are the extremist Islamics, but they are a minority.
We also have extremist Christians, the wack jobs in Ireland just been two sects. I mean both the Catholic and Protestant extremists.
In the meantime Eki is being his usual asinine self.

I agree with you.

Also, Christians have committed far more despicable acts than Muslims throughout history. FACT, yet we dont see them being lambasted the way the Muslims do. WHY :?:

[chuck34]

I agree with you.

Also, Christians have committed far more despicable acts than Muslims throughout history. FACT, yet we dont see them being lambasted the way the Muslims do. WHY :?:

Look up Bosnia.

[Easy Drifter]

Off goes Eki with his usual comments that are totally immaterial and have nothing to do with this topic. Attacking occupying troops who have invaded your country is not terrorism, except maybe in a twisted mind.

[Eki]

Off goes Eki with his usual comments that are totally immaterial and have nothing to do with this topic. Attacking occupying troops who have invaded your country is not terrorism, except maybe in a twisted mind.
So those attacks on foreign troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are not terrorism either, because they have been against occupying troops?

[Roamy]

I dont for one second condone terrorism in any way shape or form as I pointed out in my original post. As someone who is not from the US I think the attitudes of some of the American forumers toward people of the Muslim faith is to me appauling. Again to back up what Easy Drifter said, the majority of people from the Muslim faith are just regular normal people. Its is only the extremely tiny minority that are terrorists. I fail to see how you can condem milions of people for just something like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population.

You really need a new calculator !!!!!

You can start here in fixing your calculator

http://www.danielpipes.org/2489/what-are-islamic-schools-teaching

[airshifter]

I dont for one second condone terrorism in any way shape or form as I pointed out in my original post. As someone who is not from the US I think the attitudes of some of the American forumers toward people of the Muslim faith is to me appauling. Again to back up what Easy Drifter said, the majority of people from the Muslim faith are just regular normal people. Its is only the extremely tiny minority that are terrorists. I fail to see how you can condem milions of people for just something like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population.

There are threads with anti American sentiment quite often on this forum, but not all Americans blame all of the forum or the countries they represent. A small minority of people from every culture set an example that could be taken as the sentiments of that entire culture.

[Roamy]

Ok lets do some math guessing!!!!

There are approx 1.4 billion muslims in the world - Not even considering the extremists - what percent of them do you think would be happy to see your head laying on the ground if you are a white male let alone a christian. I am guessing at least 25%. So put that in Grid Girls calculator and it will blow her hand off!!

We need to get real - Get rid of your ostrich!!

[GridGirl]

I think all three calculators currently in my possession (now that is sad) are working correctly. Personally I think that 350,000,000,000 people really do have better things to be thinking about than your head on a block. Your not that special. :p

[Eki]

I am guessing at least 25%.
Exactly. You're guessing. Apparently your guess is not based on any solid facts and reality.

[555-04Q2]

Exactly. You're guessing. Apparently your guess is not based on any solid facts and reality.

Well said :up:

I have many Muslim friends and customers and all are modest, nice people. They are generally tight with money, otherwise they are decent hard working citizens who I get along well with and dont fear. For some reasons, the Western World fears everyhing around them that is not like them. Why :?:

[555-04Q2]

Look up Bosnia.

Why :?:

[Garry Walker]

I dont for one second condone terrorism in any way shape or form as I pointed out in my original post. As someone who is not from the US I think the attitudes of some of the American forumers toward people of the Muslim faith is to me appauling. Again to back up what Easy Drifter said, the majority of people from the Muslim faith are just regular normal people. Its is only the extremely tiny minority that are terrorists. I fail to see how you can condem milions of people for just something like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population.

If you think only 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population supported the 9/11 attacks and the continuing terrorist attacks, you are so deluded it is not even funny.


I agree with you.

Also, Christians have committed far more despicable acts than Muslims throughout history. FACT, yet we dont see them being lambasted the way the Muslims do. WHY :?:

Because christians have advanced forward, whereas many muslims are still doing those vile things in the name of their religion.

That said, all religions are bullcrap and the world would be a far better place if there were not so many idiots believing in "god"

[chuck34]

Why :?:

Because in the Bosnian conflict the Christians were "the bad guys". While it might not rise to the levels that some spout off about with Muslims, it does show that most of the Western world will come to the aid of Muslims against "bad" Christians.

[Roamy]

Exactly. You're guessing. Apparently your guess is not based on any solid facts and reality.

Exactly which forms the basis for a huge monetary bet. You take Grid Girls number and I will take mine and whoever is closest to the fact wins.

Ready??????

[Eki]

Because christians have advanced forward,
Not everyone.

[Tazio]

Because christians have advanced forward, whereas many muslims are still doing those vile things in the name of their religion.




Gary when you say we are more advanced does that include these Muslims having philosophical
(or call them religious if you want) objections to the west forcing Cell phone technology
to facilitate their adolescent offspring for sexting at their leisure while laying in bed when their parents expect them to be settled in for a night of sleep?

[Mark in Oshawa]

This is a sad thread. Really is. FIrst off, no majority of Muslims wants to do harm to USA or Christianity. That said, no majority of Christians wants to do harm to Muslims in general. That said, there is a sizeable minority in both that do want to stir up hatred. The large difference is tho that in the Muslim world, there is no real free speech or free thought for the most part. It is limited, and corrupt leaders are using Islam to control and co-erce hatred that suits their purposes. IT is why you see suicide bombers who are 16 year old kids dying for Islam while the "leaders" sit with Swiss bank accounts taking western guilt money. ( Hello Mrs. Arafat, your husband has a lot of money here) .

The west is not guilt free, but we based our democracies on freedom of assembly, and freedom of speech. As per usual Fousto, you overeact but I suspect you do this just to wind people up.

Let them meet, the same way the Nazi's in Skokie Ill. met and faded away. I am sure the FBI has people inside keeping tabs on things.

You stomp out free speech, you might as well dictate how we think.

I would rather argue with Eki or Fousto than have someone take them or I out and muzzle us. Fortunately, I get that, I don't know if Eki or Fousto quite get that.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Not everyone.

A LARGE Majority Eki and you know have gotten past it. We live in mainly secular societies with freedom of Religion. The Muslim world is far more restrictive on freedom of speech and thought. The whole point of this thread is Fousto is advocating we do what they do over there. Most Christians are smarter than that...although you fail as usual to want to acknowledge that.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If you think only 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the entire Muslim population supported the 9/11 attacks and the continuing terrorist attacks, you are so deluded it is not even funny.



Because christians have advanced forward, whereas many muslims are still doing those vile things in the name of their religion.

That said, all religions are bullcrap and the world would be a far better place if there were not so many idiots believing in "god"


Walker...there is no problem with people having faith in the concept of God. Being kept to a higher standard isn't a bad thing. Hitler believed in his own religion, mainly Nazism ( he was a Catholic by birth, not by anything he did)and we don't have to point out the millions that the godless communists killed in Russia and China. Mao and Stalin didn't believe in God either.

The only way religion is dangerous is when people believe that putting down or oppressing or eliminating another group in the NAME of God. Muslim terrorists blowing up Jews. Christian radicials in the former Yugoslavia killing Bosnian Muslims.

No...being accountable for your sins in this life by the prospect of heaven or hell is what has kept a lot of people out of decending into barbarism.....

[ErkMa]

Gee, just listen to you all, will ya?
All above sound all pat, and then you run that Guatanamo thingy. No wonder every civilized country laugh behind your back.
US of A, the brat of Terra.

[Roamy]

Gee, just listen to you all, will ya?
All above sound all pat, and then you run that Guatanamo thingy. No wonder every civilized country laugh behind your back.
US of A, the brat of Terra.

Well if you would take all these f___ks we would probably close it !! Cmon step up !!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Gee, just listen to you all, will ya?
All above sound all pat, and then you run that Guatanamo thingy. No wonder every civilized country laugh behind your back.
US of A, the brat of Terra.

Yes...the civilized thing would have been to kill those mooks on the battlefield and no one would have been the wiser. Silly Americans, actually thinking that putting out of uniform combatants in an POW situation would actually be of benefit to them?

An Uncivilized hostile war criminal state wouldn't have taken any prisoners.....

[Eki]

An Uncivilized hostile war criminal state wouldn't have taken any prisoners.....
Can you name some hostile war criminal state who hadn't take any prisoners then?

I'm quite sure the USA doesn't keep Guantanamo Bay for just humane reasons but to extract information from the prisoners. Haven't the defenders of waterboarding and other torture defended their actions saying it could save some American lives?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Can you name some hostile war criminal state who hadn't take any prisoners then?

I'm quite sure the USA doesn't keep Guantanamo Bay for just humane reasons but to extract information from the prisoners. Haven't the defenders of waterboarding and other torture defended their actions saying it could save some American lives?

They may want the information, but considering waterboarding is done as part of US military training, I would hardly put that form of torture in the same class as beating people to a pulp and hooking car batteries up to their gonads. Your friend Saddam Hussein had no issues with that but I remember your valient defense of his regime when the US invaded.

Is Waterboarding morally correct when you are trying to stop terrorist attacks against your homeland? Depends on whether I guess your family will die or not. I don't like the US waterboarding anyone in Gitmo, but the US soldiers that the Taliban and Al Quaida have taken have suffered FAR worse and have at times ended up beheaded or dead. I find it annoying you always IGNORE those crimes against humanity.

[Eki]

I find it annoying you always IGNORE those crimes against humanity.
They aren't carried out by an organized government who claims to be modern, humane, democratic and all other good stuff. If you're evil, just be honest about it, and it wont be as annoying.

[Eki]

They may want the information, but considering waterboarding is done as part of US military training,
"As part of US military training"? How about doing it to US civilians as part of their every day life? When I was in the army, we had 50 km ski marches, over 100 km bike marches and sometimes we had just 2 or 3 hours sleep a night. I found it quite unpleasant, like I think many civilians would.

[Mark in Oshawa]

They aren't carried out by an organized government who claims to be modern, humane, democratic and all other good stuff. If you're evil, just be honest about it, and it wont be as annoying.

So if you are a dictator and you admit to being one, that makes it alright? Some logic there, even for you.

No...the US SHOULDN'T be doing waterboarding, but unlike many of their enemies, there is a robust debate in the US about the merits and pitfalls of it, and waterboarding has no physical long term effects, and considering the paranoia in the wake of 9/11, it is at least understandable, if not still wrong. I guess your standard you are holding the Americans to is fine but again, when I see you start threads bemoaning the torture of American solidiers and civilians, I will take your comment with a little more validity. Unlike you, my agenda isn't ignoring all of what is going on.

[Mark in Oshawa]

"As part of US military training"? How about doing it to US civilians as part of their every day life? When I was in the army, we had 50 km ski marches, over 100 km bike marches and sometimes we had just 2 or 3 hours sleep a night. I found it quite unpleasant, like I think many civilians would.

If the Finnish Army waterboarded you as training for resistance of interrogation techniques, I wouldn't quibble. If you sign up in the army as a volunteer and that is part of the training, that is part of the training.

Your point is missed by me. The point I am making that if waterboarding is such a great evil, then why is the US Military able to legally incorporate it as part of their training of officers to resist interrogation? It isn't pleasant, but again, it isn't causing any lasting damage. Again, many of the people the Americans are fighting against, including some of those mooks in Gitmo would be quite happy to hook your privates to a car battery just for the sheer entertainment value. Beheading journalists on camera and sending the video out to the world obviously missed your perview......

[Roamy]

bilateral treatment:
The Taleban have one of ours and however he is treated will dictate how we treat our captives.

[steve_spackman]

If the USA kept its nose out of other peoples business, then the world and the US would be a safer place...

[Mark in Oshawa]

If the USA kept its nose out of other peoples business, then the world and the US would be a safer place...

they tried that in 1939. Then they were condemened for NOT getting involved. WE saw how well THAT worked out, ignoring that fella Hitler and that other fine example of humanity, Tadeki Tojo.

You ever actually read history books of what has happened in the past and realized that simple solution are often not solutions at all?

Simplisitic tripe. People want to kill Americans and by extention most of the peoples of the west not for any reason than the fact we have what often they do not. That may or may not be partially be our or America' fault, but unlike you, I don't think it justifies terrorist acts against civilians. THat's ok, you and Eki defend terrorism with your moral relvence and crap....

[steve_spackman]

they tried that in 1939. Then they were condemened for NOT getting involved. WE saw how well THAT worked out, ignoring that fella Hitler and that other fine example of humanity, Tadeki Tojo.

You ever actually read history books of what has happened in the past and realized that simple solution are often not solutions at all?

Simplisitic tripe. People want to kill Americans and by extention most of the peoples of the west not for any reason than the fact we have what often they do not. That may or may not be partially be our or America' fault, but unlike you, I don't think it justifies terrorist acts against civilians. THat's ok, you and Eki defend terrorism with your moral relvence and crap....

America defends and carries out acts of terrorism, so dont think that they are innocent coz they are far from that Mark and YOU know it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

America defends and carries out acts of terrorism, so dont think that they are innocent coz they are far from that Mark and YOU know it.

Name one ACT of terrorism. The invasion of Iraq is controversal, but isn't terrorism. Ditto Afghanistan.
Since when did rogue Americans run around the world hijacking and killing in the name of some nebulous cause?

You confuse terrorism with realpoltik. All large nation states are not saints, neither your UK or the USA have been total virgins I agree BUT I wouldn't call either nation supporters of terrorism. Funding and supplying contra groups fighting communism in the 80's was I suppose a form of state supported terrorism, but as I said, the Chinese do it, the Iranians do it, the Russians do it...the UK has done it. Very few major powers are walking around with clean hands on this one.

However, I look at the US, and I usually see them at some level trying to do the right thing. I will say for the most part, they at least have some debate about their actions and there is an accounting for their misdeeds. Do the Russians lose sleep over their oppression of the Chechens? Iran lose sleep over giving the North Koreans missle technology, supporting Hezbollah or the Shiite radicals planting roadside bombs in Iraq?

How about the French losing sleep over their support of some pretty slimy characters in Africa?

Steve, you cant hold the USA to a different standard. Sorry...you want to judge all nations by this standard, you might only see the Scandinavians and Maybe Canada ( maybe...I am sure we have done something stupid somewhere ) as having pure motives. You want to condemn the Yanks that's fine, then spread it around and be fair and nail everyone....

[steve_spackman]

Name one ACT of terrorism. The invasion of Iraq is controversal, but isn't terrorism. Ditto Afghanistan.
Since when did rogue Americans run around the world hijacking and killing in the name of some nebulous cause?

You confuse terrorism with realpoltik. All large nation states are not saints, neither your UK or the USA have been total virgins I agree BUT I wouldn't call either nation supporters of terrorism. Funding and supplying contra groups fighting communism in the 80's was I suppose a form of state supported terrorism, but as I said, the Chinese do it, the Iranians do it, the Russians do it...the UK has done it. Very few major powers are walking around with clean hands on this one.

However, I look at the US, and I usually see them at some level trying to do the right thing. I will say for the most part, they at least have some debate about their actions and there is an accounting for their misdeeds. Do the Russians lose sleep over their oppression of the Chechens? Iran lose sleep over giving the North Koreans missle technology, supporting Hezbollah or the Shiite radicals planting roadside bombs in Iraq?

How about the French losing sleep over their support of some pretty slimy characters in Africa?

Steve, you cant hold the USA to a different standard. Sorry...you want to judge all nations by this standard, you might only see the Scandinavians and Maybe Canada ( maybe...I am sure we have done something stupid somewhere ) as having pure motives. You want to condemn the Yanks that's fine, then spread it around and be fair and nail everyone....

I agree with you Mark..seriously i really do.

But a few certain people on these forums have great enjoyment bashing other countries, yet its not fair if someone gives the US a quick stabbing in rerturn.

If these people get crappy when the US gets a quick bashing, they shouldnt dish it out!

[Mark in Oshawa]

At the end of the day its just a lil bit of payback.

A few certain people on these forums have great enjoyment bashing other countries, yet its not fair and its not nice if someone gives the US agood stabbing in rerturn.

If these people get crappy when the US gets a quick bashing, they shouldnt dish it out!

you Mean Fousto and Anthony? I suspect they either don't care or are ignorant in it I agree BUT there are Americans such as Chuck who are just justifiably proud of their country, as we all are about our nations while giving a good debate and defense.

I can bash Americans in ways they cant always refute since I have spent a lot of time down there and have taken their history and compared it to Canada's experiences and understand the drives that created many of the policies in the US. My point tho is my complete respect for not just the US, but any nation that democratically elects its leadership and holds for the most part the rule of law and a definable constitution with individual rights. The USA was the first nation to really create that and much of the rights we enjoy to day are as a result of the fact the Americans forced the issue. Their revolution spawned the French Revolution, and the very rapid opening up and democratic advances in Westminister and the Commonwealth of nations. They didn't invent freedom, but they gave it a loud voice....

[steve_spackman]

I can bash Americans in ways they cant always refute since I have spent a lot of time down there and have taken their history and compared it to Canada's experiences and understand the drives that created many of the policies in the US.

I know where you are coming from on that one

[steve_spackman]

The USA was the first nation to really create that and much of the rights we enjoy to day are as a result of the fact the Americans forced the issue. Their revolution spawned the French Revolution, and the very rapid opening up and democratic advances in Westminister and the Commonwealth of nations. They didn't invent freedom, but they gave it a loud voice....

i would have to disagree with you on that one

[Mark in Oshawa]

i would have to disagree with you on that one

You will. Doesn't change the reality tho. We members of the Commonwealth surely were a bit more cautious and measused in how we evolved into our current democratic systems, but the Yank's started from scratch with a radical idea and a revolution. You may not like it, but they did pretty well with it, even if they did sort of ignore that bit about all men being equal for their first 80 or so years of nation hood.....

[Eki]

If the Finnish Army waterboarded you as training for resistance of interrogation techniques, I wouldn't quibble. If you sign up in the army as a volunteer and that is part of the training, that is part of the training.

Good point, the US Army is volunteer, the Finnish Army is not. And the prisoners in Guantanamo aren't there voluntarily either. A US soldier can be sure in his training that he will be yanked up before he drowns, the Guantanamo prisoners can't.

[Eki]

So if you are a dictator and you admit to being one, that makes it alright? Some logic there, even for you.


No, it doesn't make it alright, it just makes it honest and not hypocritical. I have some respect for honesty but no respect for hypocrisy.

[Eki]

If the USA kept its nose out of other peoples business, then the world and the US would be a safer place...
Swedish and Finnish UN troops in Afghanistan have been in three fire fights with the Taliban last week. Now the Swedes have received threats that Swedes will die as a revenge for the Taliban fighters died in those fights. I guess Finland and Sweden won't be safe anymore after putting our noses in the Afghan mess.

[janvanvurpa]

i would have to disagree with you on that one

Steve, you have a English Cross of St George flying there, zat mean you're a Pom?
I guess you are so would you like to 'splain to our "American-can-do-no-wrong" Canajain friend how your Parliament already a hundred years before was putting limits on Royal prerogatives, and enumerating and codifying Rights?

[Easy Drifter]

About time the Finnish troops in Afghanistan did something instead of letting other countries do all the fighting.

[Tomi]

Swedish and Finnish UN troops in Afghanistan have been in three fire fights with the Taliban last week. Now the Swedes have received threats that Swedes will die as a revenge for the Taliban fighters died in those fights. I guess Finland and Sweden won't be safe anymore after putting our noses in the Afghan mess.

Agree, they should have not been there in the first place, and should get out from there soon as possible, cant remember us ever have had any problems with Afganistan.

[Easy Drifter]

Then get out of NATO as well. Oh and take away all womens' rights while you are at it since you don't seem to believe in them. :mad:

[Tomi]

Then get out of NATO as well. Oh and take away all womens' rights while you are at it since you don't seem to believe in them. :mad:

lol, we are no member of nato, and what comes to womens rights, check your facts.

[chuck34]

i would have to disagree with you on that one

How so? I know that our anti-American friend, Jan, has already pointed out that Parliment was putting some restrictions on the King. But that was no where near the limits places on the US government. And every history I've ever read says exactly what Mark points out. That the US Revolution directly sparked the French Revolution, even more restrictions being placed on the UK crown, and maybe a little less directly simmilar things throughout the world. So what do you disagree with?

[GridGirl]

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]you Mean Fousto and Anthony? I suspect they either don't care or are ignorant in it I agree BUT there are Americans such as Chuck who are just justifiably proud of their country, as we all are about our nations while giving a good debate and defense.

I can bash Americans in ways they cant always refute since I have spent a lot of time down there and have taken their history and compared it to Canada's experiences and understand the drives that created many of the policies in the US. My point tho is my complete respect for not just the US, but any nation that democratically elects its leadership and holds for the most part the rule of law and a definable constitution with individual rights. The USA was the first nation to really create that and much of the rights we enjoy to day are as a result of the fact the Americans forced the issue. Their revolution spawned the French Revolution, and the very rapid opening up and democratic advances in Westminister and the Commonwealth of nations. They didn't invent freedom, but they gave it a loud voice....[/

Mark, I agree with you to a certain point but the American revolution only gave certain people rights. It wasn't until the civil right movement which wasn't really that long ago that all Americans had a right so to speak. I think this maybe the issue of where people may disagree with you.

[Mark in Oshawa]

you Mean Fousto and Anthony? I suspect they either don't care or are ignorant in it I agree BUT there are Americans such as Chuck who are just justifiably proud of their country, as we all are about our nations while giving a good debate and defense.

I can bash Americans in ways they cant always refute since I have spent a lot of time down there and have taken their history and compared it to Canada's experiences and understand the drives that created many of the policies in the US. My point tho is my complete respect for not just the US, but any nation that democratically elects its leadership and holds for the most part the rule of law and a definable constitution with individual rights. The USA was the first nation to really create that and much of the rights we enjoy to day are as a result of the fact the Americans forced the issue. Their revolution spawned the French Revolution, and the very rapid opening up and democratic advances in Westminister and the Commonwealth of nations. They didn't invent freedom, but they gave it a loud voice....[/

Mark, I agree with you to a certain point but the American revolution only gave certain people rights. It wasn't until the civil right movement which wasn't really that long ago that all Americans had a right so to speak. I think this maybe the issue of where people may disagree with you.

Grid Girl. The Constution of the US gave everyone those rights. It just wasn't until Lincoln that blacks were freed from slavery and until the 60's that the courts started actually interpreting the laws laid down properly to give those rights. That is the fault of a dopey electorate who accepted things the way they were, and politicians who were content to keep the status quo. Doesn't change the fact that Jefferson drafted the US Declaration with the line "all men are created equal" ( meaning every human of course..not just men or whites ). Jefferson himself knew the hypocracy of him owning slaves when he wrote it but knew it was going to be a hard slog and a lot of upheaval to really enforce that ( the Civil War...the 60's).

[GridGirl]

Technically everyone had a right but in reality they didn't. The constitution was hardly worth the paper it was written on untill the civil rights movement too place.

[Alexamateo]

Technically everyone had a right but in reality they didn't. The constitution was hardly worth the paper it was written on untill the civil rights movement too place.

I would re-think that statement. By that logic, the Magna Carta was hardly worth the paper it was written because many of the original provisions have been repealed.

[GridGirl]

Alexamateo, you comment is the opposite of what I was trying to point out. The declaration did not become relevent to the US population as a whole untill a much later date. I would say that all men are now or should be equal today. The US population made change to make sure it applied to all. The Magna Carta on the other hand has been changed or repealed in itself. It's curret state is nothing like the original copy that was signed. So yes, the original is worthless but only because we change it.

[Roamy]

you Mean Fousto and Anthony? I suspect they either don't care or are ignorant in it I agree BUT there are Americans such as Chuck who are just justifiably proud of their country, as we all are about our nations while giving a good debate and defense.
.

You may want to rethink your words ole two bit - having opinions different that yours would hardly qualify anyone as ignorant!! Maybe you are confusing the word with "Genius"

[Alexamateo]

Alexamateo, you comment is the opposite of what I was trying to point out. The declaration did not become relevent to the US population as a whole untill a much later date. I would say that all men are now or should be equal today. The US population made change to make sure it applied to all. The Magna Carta on the other hand has been changed or repealed in itself. It's curret state is nothing like the original copy that was signed. So yes, the original is worthless but only because we change it.

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong on its face. You are saying the constitution was worthless for most of it's existence, because we have now changed certain how we interpret certain parts of it. By logical extension, we can say if we re-interpret certain parts of it in the future (i.e. give homosexuals full protected rights), it will render today valuless.

[janvanvurpa]

How so? I know that our anti-American friend, Jan, has already pointed out that Parliment was putting some restrictions on the King.

Parliament had cut off the head of the King of England and usually that's a bit of a restriction on what a person, sans tête, can do, at least for most people.
The Englishmen who began their Revolt against Royal absolutist prerogatives and after over a year of open rebellion finally wrote our Declaration of Independence knew they were the direct descendants of their English grandfathers who have revolted a century before, and abolished Royalty, and only years later negotiated with CharlesII to return but only with several limitations one of which was critical: Parliament was to control the Exchequer, and thus the Kings power to do ANYTHING depended on getting MONEY TO PAY FOR IT out of Parliament.

Our Bill of Rights, not supported by all of Congress by any means was written by men intimately familiar with the English Bill of Rights.

For those not familiar from Wiki:

Main article: English Bill of Rights

The English Bill of Rights (1689), one of the fundamental documents of English constitutional law, differed substantially in form and intent from the American Bill of Rights, because it was intended to address the rights of citizens as represented by Parliament against the Crown. However, some of its basic tenets are adopted and extended to the general public by the U.S. Bill of Rights, including

* the right of petition
* an independent judiciary (the Sovereign was forbidden to establish his own courts or to act as a judge himself),
* freedom from taxation by royal (executive) prerogative, without agreement by Parliament (legislators),
* freedom from a peace-time standing army,
* freedom [for Protestants] to bear arms for their defence, as allowed by law,
* freedom to elect members of Parliament without interference from the Sovereign,
* freedom of speech in Parliament,
* freedom from cruel and unusual punishments and excessive bail, and
* freedom from fines and forfeitures without trial.





But that was no where near the limits places on the US government. And every history I've ever read says exactly what Mark points out. That the US Revolution directly sparked the French Revolution, even more restrictions being placed on the UK crown, and maybe a little less directly simmilar things throughout the world. So what do you disagree with?

So it seems I'm anti-American because I place our Framers of our Constitution in the midst of the Post Enlightenment Culture and general anti-establishment, anti-Absolutist culture that was generally afoot in most of Western Europe in not Europe in general.

As for the US Revolution directly sparking the French Revolution, well that seems an awfully Americo-centric view and presumes that millions of peasants, maybe 70% illiterate, were aware of and conversant in the details of the American war of 10-15 years before and that somehow was more motivating than the centuries of political exclusion, financial serfdom in which they lived, the lack of any kind of justice, and that they rose up nationwide in their MILLIONS because they were all hot under the collar About the American Revolution.

Seems hard to swallow when we reflect that even today very few people here in USA can answer with any detail or place events into a context the details of our Revolution.

I know what I have been told and read from French sources about the connection between our US Revolution and theirs, but it seems that all the Americans and Canadian wannbe's have it settled so why the hell bother.



PS or am I "anti-American" because I am anti-Absolutist, Anti-Authoritarian and anti-imperialist?

[chuck34]

*snip* drivel



I don't even know where to begin. Thanks for the history lesson though, like I didn't know all that.

[steve_spackman]

The French revolution came about because in 1789 the French Monarchy went bankrupt under the rule of Louis XVI and was in no shape or form linked to the US revolution.

[chuck34]

The French revolution came about because in 1789 the French Monarchy went bankrupt under the rule of Louis XVI and was in no shape or form linked to the US revolution.

What was one of the causes of the French Monarchy going bankrupt? What gave the "peasents" hope that they could actually overthrow a monarchy?

[steve_spackman]

What was one of the causes of the French Monarchy going bankrupt? What gave the "peasents" hope that they could actually overthrow a monarchy?

King Louis XV1 was enept.....though he was very kind bloke he wasnt very good when it came to money

Mind you the US and French revolutions did have one thing in common...it was about money nothing to do with that word freedom, just like the US revolution..all about money..

Example the Boston Tea Party

[chuck34]

Mind you the US and French revolutions did have one thing in common...it was about money nothing to do with that word freedom, just like the US revolution..all about money..



When you get right down to it, pretty much every war is about money in one shape or form.

[steve_spackman]

When you get right down to it, pretty much every war is about money in one shape or form.

Yes indeed, then it leads to other things too..

Chuck34..Im glad to see you agreeing with me LOL ;)

[chuck34]

Yes indeed, then it leads to other things too..

Chuck34..Im glad to see you agreeing with me LOL ;)

Credit where credit is due. I don't disagree just to disagree. If someone is right about something, even if I don't always agree with other stuff, I can't disagree.

[janvanvurpa]

What was one of the causes of the French Monarchy going bankrupt? What gave the "peasents" hope that they could actually overthrow a monarchy?

As for the US Revolution directly sparking the French Revolution, well that seems an awfully Americo-centric view and presumes that millions of peasants, maybe 70% illiterate, were aware of and conversant in the details of the American war of 10-15 years before and that somehow was more motivating than the centuries of political exclusion, financial serfdom in which they lived, the lack of any kind of justice, and that they rose up nationwide in their MILLIONS because they were all hot under the collar About the American Revolution.

Seems hard to swallow when we reflect that even today very few people here in USA can answer with any detail or place events into a context the details of our Revolution.

[chuck34]

As for the US Revolution directly sparking the French Revolution, well that seems an awfully Americo-centric view and presumes that millions of peasants, maybe 70% illiterate, were aware of and conversant in the details of the American war of 10-15 years before and that somehow was more motivating than the centuries of political exclusion, financial serfdom in which they lived, the lack of any kind of justice, and that they rose up nationwide in their MILLIONS because they were all hot under the collar About the American Revolution.

Seems hard to swallow when we reflect that even today very few people here in USA can answer with any detail or place events into a context the details of our Revolution.

Jan, your record has a scratch in it, and is skipping. Just thought you'd like to know. :-)

Lets see political exclusion, financial serfdom, lack of justice. Where have I heard that before? Hmm, a real head scratcher.

Oh no, they were maybe 70% illiterate!??! That must mean that they hadn't ever heard of the Amerian Revolution and the main points about it, you know overthrowing a monarchy. You've blown my whole point right out of the water.

Do you honestly believe that the French had never heard of the American Revolution? Or that it didn't give them inspiration that "We the People" could topple a monarchy? Litterate or not, details or not?

[Alexamateo]

What was one of the causes of the French Monarchy going bankrupt? .......


Landscape Architecture!!! :p :

I majored in Landscape Architecture in college and we always used to joke that Landscape Architecture caused the French Revolution. We said it as a joke, but there's some truth to it.

France's finance minister was embezzling funds from the treasury and using it to build his estate Vaux-le-Vicomte. When he was finished, he hosted a party to show off his new works. Of course Louis XIV was there. After King Louis saw it he promptly had the finance minister arrested and hired his Landscape Architect, Le Notre, to design and build even more extensive gardens, which became Versailles, and in doing so bankrupted the French government. :)

[janvanvurpa]

Jan, your record has a scratch in it, and is skipping. Just thought you'd like to know. :-)




No, it just seems you're deaf, or have a memory as long as a fly.


Lets see political exclusion, financial serfdom, lack of justice. Where have I heard that before? Hmm, a real head scratcher.

Oh no, they were maybe 70% illiterate!??! That must mean that they hadn't ever heard of the Amerian Revolution and the main points about it, you know overthrowing a monarchy. You've blown my whole point right out of the water.

Do you honestly believe that the French had never heard of the American Revolution? Or that it didn't give them inspiration that "We the People" could topple a monarchy? Litterate or not, details or not?

American Peasants today know virtually nothing of the American Revolution except the last Mel Gibson movie maybe, so
sure yes I am fairly certain that the millions of illiterate peasants knew nothing of importance of the American Revolution.


But I knew that there was a core of junior Army officers who had seen one thing that led to many siding with the People when the Revolution finally came
and that thing was MERIT, an unknown concept in Absolutist regimes.


So while you're ranting and raving and redefining the words "SELF Reliance" to me "If I choose to get help from anybody I choose then I'm still being SELF reliant cause I choose them", you ignore the lasting trait of American society (until we had our own Aristocracy (based solely on money not land) which many Junior Officers in the French Army got to see first hand.

You assertion that millions of peasants were conversant with the details of the American Revolution and that it was prominent in the minds of French peasants, and was in their minds as encouragement is beyond absurd, that assertion verges on inanity.

Shirley, you jest.

[steve_spackman]

American Peasants today know virtually nothing of the American Revolution except the last Mel Gibson movie maybe, so
sure yes I am fairly certain that the millions of illiterate peasants knew nothing of importance of the American Revolution.

Yes if you want the patriotic angle of the American revolution stick to them films thats shows the Americans as stout hearted, freedom loving and heroic :rolleyes:

the truth is a bit more messy.

[steve_spackman]

Anyway im through with this thread.... :wave:

[chuck34]

You assertion that millions of peasants were conversant with the details of the American Revolution and that it was prominent in the minds of French peasants, and was in their minds as encouragement is beyond absurd, that assertion verges on inanity.

Shirley, you jest.

When have I ever said that the French people needed to know all the details of the American Revolution? Never. They only needed to know the main point. That there is this country, called the US or "America", that was once ruled by a King. The people rose up and cast him off. That really isn't that hard to believe. The fact that you think people in the 18th century were so dumb as not not know the main jist of the American Revolution, is beyond absurd. And to think that the leaders of the French Revolution didn't know about the US and what happened here, is even more absurd than that!

People now, in this day and age, not knowing the details of the Revolution is not the point here what-so-ever. But I do think that most Americans today know at least as much about the Revolution as "illiterate French Peasents" did in the 1780s-90s. And that is a lot more than you are willing to give them credit for. Stop watching "Jay-walking". Those idiots they find are not a representative sample of the public.

And don't call me Shirley. :-)

[janvanvurpa]

When have I ever said that the French people needed to know all the details of the American Revolution? Never.

I never said you were suggesting the French illiterate peasantry "needed to know all the details", I took issues with your wild, unfounded fantasy that OUR Revolution was a motivational factor of any weight .

That sort of disingenuous shifting of what was said is one reason some people find discussions with people like you pointless and sterile.
The following is 100% idle blather based on "that isn't that hard to believe".

God save us.




They only needed to know the main point. That there is this country, called the US or "America", that was once ruled by a King. The people rose up and cast him off. That really isn't that hard to believe.

But that was no "News", people rose up constantly all over the place. If fact the whole rise of "Absolutism" by the Royalty was a response to a few centuries of FREQUENT revolts and uprisings and PEOPLE asserting their rights.





The fact that you think people in the 18th century were so dumb as not not know the main jist of the American Revolution, is beyond absurd.

See? Once again you put words in my mouth which I NEVER said NOR IMPLIED. And you use immflamatory words, agian which I never used.

That is why I think you are a basically dishonest person, very dishonest and as such I have zero respect for you, and nothing but contempt for your dishonest way of arguing.

I suggested that the French peasntry had plenty to be piised off about from their own day to day--GENERATION to GENERATION experience and like many people before and since, were perfectly aware of their circumstances.
I did NOT in any way suggest they were dumb---those are your words.

I suggested that many were quite possibly INGORANT of the details, and course and grieveances of the British Colonists, which does not imply smart/dumb---except to thickheaded ignorantes monolinguistico Norte Americanos-=----it means and is accepted to mean "un-informed".

I suggest your read a bit on the "Cahiers de Doléances"--there is enough in English to be enlightening.



And to think that the leaders of the French Revolution didn't know about the US and what happened here, is even more absurd than that!

Again you put words into my mouth---it seems to be instinctive or reflexive for you to do that---and it sucks.

YOU just introduced the idea of the "Leaders" or the Revolution and that, seeing how the 3 "Estates", the Clergy, the Seigneurial class, and the "Third Esate"---peasants and urban workers, all listed their grievances, all were ready for radical change as it was obvious that the entire social system was rotten to the core, which "leaders" are you referring to?



People now, in this day and age, not knowing the details of the Revolution is not the point here what-so-ever. But I do think that most Americans today know at least as much about the Revolution as "illiterate French Peasents" did in the 1780s-90s. And that is a lot more than you are willing to give them credit for.

That is an unfounded and impossible to rationally discuss [b]assertion[/u]

It is this imagined centrality of OUR experiences effect on the WHOLE WORLD that makes much of the world roll their eyes back in their heads and write off Americans as immature, ignorant yahoos.

Why would our Revolution be more meaningful that Pugachev's Revolt at about the same time just a thousand miles away? Or The Scots final uprising just a few years before?

Get real, man. Their grievances were enough to rise up and risk their lives.
Give other people credit for being able to have the awareness of their own situation without making up elaborate presumptions of their own motivations.





And don't call me Shirley. :-)

It's Franken-STEEN.

[Easy Drifter]

We seem to have drifted a wee bit away from the original thrust of this thread.

[chuck34]

I never said you were suggesting the French illiterate peasantry "needed to know all the details", I took issues with your wild, unfounded fantasy that OUR Revolution was a motivational factor of any weight .


You assertion that millions of peasants were conversant with the details of the American Revolution and that it was prominent in the minds of French peasants, and was in their minds as encouragement is beyond absurd, that assertion verges on inanity.


Well I'll just let that lay there. I'm sure I'm just shifting arguments again, or some such nonsence.


That is why I think you are a basically dishonest person, very dishonest and as such I have zero respect for you, and nothing but contempt for your dishonest way of arguing.


Cool. Have a good one. *bye-bye*

[Roamy]

Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
That is why I think you are a basically dishonest person, very dishonest and as such I have zero respect for you, and nothing but contempt for your dishonest way of arguing.

WOW my fuching heart is broken. Like someone would really give a sh!t about how you feel about them - you need to get over yourself!!

[chuck34]

You assertion that millions of peasants were conversant with the details of the American Revolution and that it was prominent in the minds of French peasants, and was in their minds as encouragement is beyond absurd, that assertion verges on inanity.


The fact that you think people in the 18th century were so dumb as not not know the main jist of the American Revolution, is beyond absurd.


See? Once again you put words in my mouth which I NEVER said NOR IMPLIED. And you use immflamatory words, agian which I never used.


I know I should let this go, but I just can't at this point. Where exactly did I put words in your mouth? You said that the peasants didn't know the details of the American Revolution. I said they didn't need to know the details, just the jist. Then you come back and say that I'm dishonest and putting words in your mouth? And worse yet, using inflamatory words ... "Absurd" was your word, and I re-used it. AND you went a step further and suggested that either I, or my ideas were insane.

Now who is being dishonest?

Ok now I'm done.

[Roamy]

JanVan you need to learn to come on here make your point and then STFU. We don't need to hear your liberal "chip on the shoulder" ranting and raving bullsh!t.

Make a point and Don't SUCK !!

[steve_spackman]

JanVan you need to learn to come on here make your point and then STFU. We don't need to hear your liberal "chip on the shoulder" ranting and raving bullsh!t.

Make a point and Don't SUCK !!

Well he has made some very valid points

[Roamy]

Well he has made some very valid points


thats what I said "make the point" and then STFU

A valid point is not what he thinks of Chuck

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Fausto, Why don't you get one of these?

http://www.nnytimes.com/images/NY_hunting_permit.jpg

[Roamy]

I am in
where do i go to get one

[BDunnell]

JanVan you need to learn to come on here make your point and then STFU. We don't need to hear your liberal "chip on the shoulder" ranting and raving bullsh!t.

Make a point and Don't SUCK !!

Er... I wouldn't rant and rave in a post criticising someone else for ranting and raving. It might make you look a little — how can I put this? — foolish.

[Roamy]

that is yet another personal opinion by you and probably you don't want to get into personal opinion slagging!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I am in
where do i go to get one

See, this is another reason why Europeans are loosing respect for Americans.

The problem I see with these people is that they watch way too many movies. They all want to become Jack Bauer, and the fantasize way too much about stopping what could be the next 9/11. :rolleyes:

[Roamy]

See, this is another reason why Europeans are loosing respect for Americans.

The problem I see with these people is that they watch way too many movies. They all want to become Jack Bauer, and the fantasize way too much about stopping what could be the next 9/11. :rolleyes:

So we lost your respect - what does this mean in the real scheme of life?
Please enlighten me.

[Camelopard]

So we lost your respect - what does this mean in the real scheme of life?
Please enlighten me.

Well obviously what they think is important to you otherwise you wouldn't waste sooo much time and effort in getting your knickers in a twist all the time! :)

[janvanvurpa]

So we lost your respect - what does this mean in the real scheme of life?
Please enlighten me.
You---with all your nuke 'em all, "turn the whole place into a glass parking lot" mass murdering advocacy---never had it.

Who could possibly respect a person who would suggest killing 20-30 million people in one country for what some people from another country had done?

[Camelopard]

See, this is another reason why Europeans are loosing respect for Americans.

The problem I see with these people is that they watch way too many movies. They all want to become Jack Bauer, and the fantasize way too much about stopping what could be the next 9/11. :rolleyes:

To my way of thinking it seems that many 'mericans learn their history and geography from movies, some even think that the US won the 'war' in Vietnam!!!

OK, so I'm not European, but I can't say that I have ever had a great deal of respect for the US. Yes, I have been to many individual states, on a personal level nearly everyone I met was friendly, helpfull, polite, even if a lot of them confused Australia with Austria and said how well I spoke English!
I didn't however meet fousto nor vop, that would probably have made me change my mind!

On a government level, that is a different story.

I must add that I have felt safer walking around at night in Nairobbery, Lagos and other 'dangerous' cities that I did in some large US cities, night or day!

[janvanvurpa]

I know I should let this go, but I just can't at this point. Where exactly did I put words in your mouth? You said that the peasants didn't know the details of the American Revolution. I said they didn't need to know the details, just the jist. Then you come back and say that I'm dishonest and putting words in your mouth? And worse yet, using inflamatory words ... "Absurd" was your word, and I re-used it. AND you went a step further and suggested that either I, or my ideas were insane.

Now who is being dishonest?

Ok now I'm done.

I did not call you insane.

The word was INANE, can't you be troubled to read?


The words---look them up----(do you write so much pap that you can't even remember your own words?----I used was illiterate and you said I was calling the peasantry DUMB.
I implied they were most likely IGNORTANT---as in unaware,
you claimed I called them dumb.

That was dumb. (See? If I want to call an action dumb, I will)

[Roamy]

first of all again this is your opinion, maybe shared buy the TIREs but plenty have a opinion different that yours about me. So as the old saying goes "opinions are like assholes - everybody has one. I am very content to pull back within my own boundaries and subsequently eliminate the need for any offensive program. In doing so I would request many people leave my country to help prevent the chance I need to turn their country into a glasss parking lot. Matter of fact we really don't need to go anywhere. We manufacture very little that would require us to be in any country. We need no where near the military presence we have worldwide.

With that being said - our country is basically oriented to financial growth spurned by increased immigration and population increase. This is running the world out of resources and a record pace. So rather that to worry about me you should worry about the above factors as they will destroy you long before I do. BTW the difference between you and i is that you would be content to see 20 or 30 million of us killed rather than them. Unfortunately for us you will probably get your wish. But perhaps by worldwide anarchy and corruption you can spread results out as to not focus on one country.

[airshifter]

Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
That is why I think you are a basically dishonest person, very dishonest and as such I have zero respect for you, and nothing but contempt for your dishonest way of arguing.

WOW my fuching heart is broken. Like someone would really give a sh!t about how you feel about them - you need to get over yourself!!

I'll send some tissues Fousto. I'm sure the fact that you might also lose Janvan's respect is tearing you apart inside! :laugh:

[Roamy]

I'll send some tissues Fousto. I'm sure the fact that you might also lose Janvan's respect is tearing you apart inside! :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I guess I will just have to drink my way through this crisis!!! :p

[janvanvurpa]

I'll send some tissues Fousto. I'm sure the fact that you might also lose Janvan's respect is tearing you apart inside! :laugh:
Never had it.

Neither did you.

I'm sure you are crushed.

[Roamy]

And Jesus said "turn the other cheek"

who said "eye for and eye"