Latest from Honda on new engines

[NickFalzone]

NEW ENGINE PROCESS IS MOVING SLOWLY
All may be quiet in regards to the new IndyCar Series engine/car package that is tentatively set to debut in 2012 as international automakers continue to cope with a weak economy. But Honda Performance Development president Erik Berkman said on Sunday that he wants his company to have competition from another auto manufacturer rather than be a single-engine supplier to the series.

Some IndyCar Series officials have said that Honda may be open to a single-engine supplier formula, which would help drive costs down while making it easier for the series to keep speeds under control. Volkswagen submitted a plan for board approval to continue its process of considering IndyCar Series participation.

However, IndyCar Series officials had hoped to hear from VW by late April and as the season reaches mid-July, the German automaker has not yet gained that approval.

“I read some comments attributed to Terry Angstadt (IndyCar Series president, commercial division) that indicated we were more open to that but I want to say we have consistently said – and I will continue to say – that we want competition,” Berkman said prior to Sunday’s Honda Indy Toronto. “We are not at a point where we have an absolute consensus amongst potential competitor companies about what the spec should be but I don’t see that as an obstacle to moving forward; we are still talking.”

Berkman did say that the notion that HPD could save money by being a single-source engine supplier would be valid because it would set up a spec at a “safe level.”

“We wouldn’t have to improve performance – we’d just get it right and keep it there and we would save some money,” Berkman said. “But we want competition because we want to spice up the show and bring more fans to the stands and get the thrill of competing and winning. That is the joy of racing – to have competition. As a manufacturer, we want to compete, too.”

Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, Fiat and Alfa-Romeo continue to express interest in joining the IndyCar Series in 2012. Honda is expected to renew with the series beginning in 2012 but that determination has not been finalized while the long process of the new engine formula continues to evolve.

“No one has opted out – no one has said we are going to fold my cards, I’m done,” Berkman said. “We are still together as strong or as loose as anybody wants to perceive that to be. We still have time – there is no reason to panic.”

Berkman has held to his view that a turbocharged V-6 engine would be the best for his company to continue in the sport. VW is pushing for an inline 4-cylinder engine.

“If we are going to have engine competition, we should knock speeds back to 218 miles per hour at the Indianapolis 500 and then allow engineering development to creep up over a period of time back to the 230 mph number,” Berkman said. “That’s what competition is, to find ways to go faster but not where the top speed is too fast.”

Berkman believes a fundamental direction on the new engine by Christmas of 2009 then they can proceed for a 2012 rollout of the new engine.

“If we get into the first quarter of next year and it continues to draw out, we won’t be able to do it for 2012,” Berkman said. “We need to know by Christmas so we can put it in and budget for it. We’d like to see the chassis change when the engine changes so it is a new package and help the objectives that it sets by bringing costs down for the teams and the stakeholders in the sport. We want to improve safety and driver visibility, closer racing and all of that stuff.”

[methanolHuffer]

218 mph starting point?

That'll set 'em back another 7+ years.

[ykiki]

218 mph starting point?

That'll set 'em back another 7+ years.

I suppose it all depends on the level of competition (1 supplier? 2? 3?) and how the powers at IndyCar HQ update the specs so the speed actually increases every year. And that's just Honda speaking about the engine.

There's also the new chasis to consider - what kind of regs will it be held to and what kind of changes/upgrades will be allowed on an ongoing basis.

[Mad_Hatter]

I read an article by David Phillips(I think) the other day and it quoted Berkman saying something like an equivalency formula could be an acceptable solution.

That is the best news I've heard in a long time about this engine topic.

[Jag_Warrior]

Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, Fiat and Alfa-Romeo continue to express interest in joining the IndyCar Series in 2012.

To dress that up even more, seems like they'd go ahead and include Lamborghini on the VAG/Porsche side and Maserati on the FIAT side.

[MDS]

I say let Honda have its V6 and let VW have its straight 4. Give the VW cars more boost and lower weight requirement and it will balance out.

[Chamoo]

Just do whatever it takes to get more manufacturers involved in the series. More manufacturers means better racing, more money, and more exposure. If that means an equivalency formula, so be it. Also convince Roger Penske to badge a Cosworth with the Saturn brand or something. I'd be surprised if Penske didn't get Saturn involved.

[Mad_Hatter]

I also hope the new formula opens up the opportunity for non-factory backed engine makers. Either through Indy 500 only involvement or as a non-lease season option.

[SportscarBruce]

I say let Honda have its V6 and let VW have its straight 4. Give the VW cars more boost and lower weight requirement and it will balance out.

Agreed.

[Chamoo]

Can someone refresh my memory on the rules regarding engines where engines that aren't built by the manufacturer aren't allowed? I read somewhere a while ago about Cosworth and Judd and all these smaller engine builders being left out of the equation because IRL rules state they need to be built by a car manufacturer or something like that.

This rule would had been implemented before I started to follow the IRL, so if someone could help me out, I would greatly appreciate it.

[MDS]

Well the Honda engine is a badged Illmor, so I'm not sure how that works.

[chuck34]

Just do whatever it takes to get more manufacturers involved in the series. More manufacturers means better racing, more money, and more exposure. If that means an equivalency formula, so be it. Also convince Roger Penske to badge a Cosworth with the Saturn brand or something. I'd be surprised if Penske didn't get Saturn involved.

+1

[chuck34]

I also hope the new formula opens up the opportunity for non-factory backed engine makers. Either through Indy 500 only involvement or as a non-lease season option.

+1,000,000!!!!!

[Jag_Warrior]

Well the Honda engine is a badged Illmor, so I'm not sure how that works.

I don't think it's ever mattered who designed or assembled the engine. It was all about having a major automobile manufacturer backing/badging the engine.

There was chatter about Hyundai badging the Cosworth a few years ago. That would have been acceptable. But the Cosworth on its own wouldn't have been, as I understood the rule at that time. Since Honda is the only current player, I don't know if that rule still exists. But IMO, it's a rule that needs to go away.

Here again, the IRL needs to figure out ways to include more players, not ways to exclude potential players. Somebody is going to have to pay for the R&D, but some competition is better than none at all, IMO.

The recent rumor (I stress rumor) out of Auburn Hills is that FIAT (Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, etc.) is out. Whatever the IRL can do to get at least one of the VAG/Porsche players in, they need to do it right, and get this going again.

[Lousada]

I also hope the new formula opens up the opportunity for non-factory backed engine makers. Either through Indy 500 only involvement or as a non-lease season option.

Honda doesn't want that. Now they can ask a lot of money for engine leases. The IRL can't say 'screw them' because Honda buys most of the tv-ads and race sponsorships.

[Marbles]

I think VW is on the right track with a small displacement 4 cylinder turbo. That would provide plenty of room in years to come to keep speeds down by adjusting boost. You could also police revs and speed by mandating lower fuel consumption.

I am absolutely opposed to an equivalency formula. There would be nothing but whining and moaning and GARRA like pleas for "help". That sort of stuff is for sports car racing. It's the slippery slope to competition ballast and semi-transparent adjustments being made from weekend to weekend.

I also think that developing this formula with a target speed at Indy (218) is simply foolish. We all know how long it takes manufacturers and big money teams to obliterate these sort of benchmarks.

I think racing series in general put too much weight behind ultimate speed. As long as the racing requires skill and is exciting I could care less if they run 200 at Indy.

[call_me_andrew]

I am absolutely opposed to an equivalency formula. There would be nothing but whining and moaning and GARRA like pleas for "help". That sort of stuff is for sports car racing. It's the slippery slope to competition ballast and semi-transparent adjustments being made from weekend to weekend.

I also think that developing this formula with a target speed at Indy (218) is simply foolish. We all know how long it takes manufacturers and big money teams to obliterate these sort of benchmarks.

I've never seen complaining like that in Grand Am, but it does sound like NASCAR 10 years ago. NASCAR was still interesting back then.

Of course they're going to obliterate that benchmark! That's why you set it so low! So it can be obliterated!

[NickFalzone]

High speeds are a very important part of Indycar racing. Make no mistake about that. I do not want to see them running 210s at Indy. Yes, I'm all for a small loss in mph IF it can make the racing better. And going from the low 220s that they do now to a 218 engine benchmark is a good idea IMO, because we all know the cars have run 10-15 mph over that with much less safe equipment in the past. I don't know that I necessarily want to see the cars breaking track records at each event, but they also should not be ground. Same speeds, more exciting and safer racing sounds good to me.

[Marbles]

I've never seen complaining like that in Grand Am, but it does sound like NASCAR 10 years ago. NASCAR was still interesting back then.
!

There's been plenty of it over the years, especially in sport cars. There is also plenty of fiddling between races in prototypes. It's easy to miss the rule changes. It isn't accompanied with graphics and is only mentioned briefly at some point in the race without any fanfare. It may make for close racing but it spoils the overall package for me. It leaves me puzzled as a race fan. Without this messing around, who is the best driver? Who makes the best engine? Who is the best team?

At what point are you punishing talent and rewarding mediocrity?



Of course they're going to obliterate that benchmark! That's why you set it so low! So it can be obliterated!

Then 218 mph isn't low enough for me.

[Marbles]

I do not want to see them running 210s at Indy.

Honestly, why? It's not like they'd be driving around with one hand on the wheel. The days of ultimate speed are long gone. In my opinion, it would be far more interesting to watch them move the goal posts waaaaaaaaaay back and have them work on their kicking for a while.

[NickFalzone]

Well honestly if you really pressed me on it, I'd say that it's because I think high speeds and high technology should be priorities in any new Indy car design. I know IRL will never compete with the tech in F1, but in its own way, IRL cars should at least be the fastest and highest tech oval cars in the world, that can also be competitive with prototypes and f1 ladder series cars on the road/streets. If speed and technology didn't matter to me, then I would be watching NASCAR only and wouldn't bother with Indycars at all. Certainly the quality of the racing there has been consistently better than the IRL for awhile now.

[Marbles]

Well honestly if you really pressed me on it, I'd say that it's because I think high speeds and high technology should be priorities in any new Indy car design. I know IRL will never compete with the tech in F1, but in its own way, IRL cars should at least be the fastest and highest tech oval cars in the world, that can also be competitive with prototypes and f1 ladder series cars on the road/streets. If speed and technology didn't matter to me, then I would be watching NASCAR only and wouldn't bother with Indycars at all. Certainly the quality of the racing there has been consistently better than the IRL for awhile now.

I understand what you're saying. However, from a tech standpoint, it could take quite a few geniuses and a lot of R&D to get an Indycar to go X amount of MPH on X amount of fuel. The same goes for chassis development and the restrictions a builder faces.

Since late in the last century it was realized that we can push the machine much further than we can push the man. Imagine unfettered development of a mid-nineties F1 or CART car. It was fairly impressive when the ALMS averaged over 140 moh at Mosport last year but I also realized, that with today's tech it wouldn't take a lot of work to equal or surpass that if the rules allowed it. Hell, I think the previously mentioned F1 or Indycar of yesteryear could have done that.

What I'm saying is that in today's world of racing, speed itself, is not as impressive to me as it was 20 years ago (when they were doing 220 at Indy). I'd be equally scared in an Indycar ant 200 mph as I would be at 230 mph.

[chuck34]

What I'm saying is that in today's world of racing, speed itself, is not as impressive to me as it was 20 years ago (when they were doing 190 at Indy) .

1 nit to pick, it's closer to 35 years ago now that they were running in the 190 range. But I get your point, and agree.

You fixed it. sorry

[Marbles]

1 nit to pick, it's closer to 35 years ago now that they were running in the 190 range. But I get your point, and agree.

You fixed it. sorry

Damn, I knew someone would catch it.

[Hoop-98]

Seems to fit here:

http://i25.tinypic.com/2daemwj.jpg

rh

[chuck34]

Damn, I knew someone would catch it.

No worries. I slip all the time. We all need someone to keep us in check every now-and-again. Plus I'm a history geek, and love that sort of thing.

[NickFalzone]

I understand what you're saying. However, from a tech standpoint, it could take quite a few geniuses and a lot of R&D to get an Indycar to go X amount of MPH on X amount of fuel. The same goes for chassis development and the restrictions a builder faces.

Since late in the last century it was realized that we can push the machine much further than we can push the man. Imagine unfettered development of a mid-nineties F1 or CART car. It was fairly impressive when the ALMS averaged over 140 moh at Mosport last year but I also realized, that with today's tech it wouldn't take a lot of work to equal or surpass that if the rules allowed it. Hell, I think the previously mentioned F1 or Indycar of yesteryear could have done that.

What I'm saying is that in today's world of racing, speed itself, is not as impressive to me as it was 20 years ago (when they were doing 220 at Indy). I'd be equally scared in an Indycar ant 200 mph as I would be at 230 mph.

Are you referring primarily to top speed or acceleration? The latter of which I think IRL cars still have a lot of ground to gain. I understand the physics issues and the G's involved and that you can only push the driver so fast in the corners. But I still see several areas where overall course speed could be improved. Unfortunately what I'm starting to see is this emphasis on fuel efficiency as a focus of high technology, and I couldn't possibly be more bored by that direction. I'm glad to see that KERS has somewhat failed in F1, and hopefully the IRL will not include that kind of garbage in their new cars. That being said, I would like to see the new cars designed in such a way that they can go quite a bit longer on a single fueling. Avg of 1 less fuel stop per race. I just hate fuel mileage races and this season it's been worse than I can remember. They should also take out the fuel knobs and leave it to the driver's ability to pedal efficiently.

[Mad_Hatter]

All the engines would be Honda, but built by 3rd parties like Cosworth, Ilmor, Speedway, whoever. They could be sold outright to teams, or possibly leased. Since Honda would be the series sponsor, they would get more bang for their buck. They also wouldn't have to fret if 2 or 3 engines croak, since 2 dozen would be fine.



but if they're all badged 'honda' the general public doesn't know that. they just see honda engines failing.

i think that idea's a bit of a non-starter just for that reason...


I think this is another one of the good ideas AOW fans have turned up. It has the potential to lower Honda operating costs(rather than an all out manufacturer engine war) and team costs, provides some technical competition, and if you limit the total number of "3rd parties" it provides the opportunity for more marketing money. There's also a sliver of hope that you could just have multiple factories badging a number of each design, provided each vendor is supplied equal development money. Then again would Honda want to be seen with the black eye of engine failures?

Your thoughts?

[nigelred5]

IMHO, Honda would never agree to anyone let alone multiple people building and developing their engines outside of their total control. That issue was the genesis of engine leases in CART as I recall.

Oldsmobile and Nissan were ok with the independent builders grenading engines and their reputation with their name on it, Toyota and Honda were not

[EagleEye]

I say let Honda have its V6 and let VW have its straight 4. Give the VW cars more boost and lower weight requirement and it will balance out.

Given the amount of support Honda has provided, both technically and commercially, I would let them dictate the formula. I think they would welcome a format that allows multiple configurations, as long as the were some rules in place to keep the HP and costs equal.

[Marbles]

Given the amount of support Honda has provided, both technically and commercially, I would let them dictate the formula. I think they would welcome a format that allows multiple configurations, as long as the were some rules in place to keep the HP and costs equal.

Let me ask how you would handle this scenario. Two other manufacturers join the series and are allowed to use different formulas. Now three different formulas are in place. The better teams, who have the better drivers and more money, stick with Honda and win the first six races of the season and it looks like it may be a clean sweep for the year. All the benchmarks and slide rules say they are producing the same power.

Would you, as the big cheese of the series, step in and take action to appease the manufacturers and teams or maybe just to make the racing more interesting? Would you cap revs or add weight to the Hondas? Keeping in mind of course, that although Honda is dominating, not all the Honda teams are winning. Just the best ones.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think no matter what they do, any change they make has to be better than the dull level of competition we are getting on a lot of tracks. Penske and Ganassi are owning the series and we need wild cards. I think the chassis design is a greater factor in improving racing than the engine formula. That said, put Honda in a room with VW and let them hammer out a formula agreeable to both. The engine manufacturers cant just build to a formula imposed on high. They have to be part of the process.

AS for an equivalencey formula,with Honda running v6's and VW with an inline 4, there is room there and let the whining go. It only hurts racing when you have equipment that teams are stuck with that wont compete. If you don't want the whining, stay with the spec series and watch more race fans tune out.

AS for speeds at Indy, I think if they are turning 218 with slower corner speeds, that is the better option. Chassis development, or rather taking away cornering speeds is the key to the IRL's future of car development. The speed can be kept up if they are doing 240 down the straight and braking to 200 in the corner. Right now, they are foot to the floor all the way around when they tune the car right. That I could do......make the cars difficult To DRIVE. Force the drivers to DRIVE the car around the track. I don't care about the engine choices if they are running flat out in the corners....