The Best Move In F1 History

[cynisca]

What do you think was the best move ever in F1 history?

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[DazzlaF1]

I'd go for one not listed on there, Mansell selling Piquet a dummy on the hangar straight in 87, magic.

[steveaki13]

I had forgotten how good the Montoya v Raikkonen battle was in Germany, so of those listed I struggle between Villeneuve v Arnoux, Montoya v Raikkonen & Massa v Kubica.

Personal favorite was Massa v Kubica as it was raining so hard and on last lap.

[philipbain]

What about Villeneuve around the OUTSIDE of Schumacher on the last corner in Potugal in '96? Have a butchers at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlFWvaQCS1w

I'd go for one not listed on there, Mansell selling Piquet a dummy on the hangar straight in 87, magic.

Magic? Magic? Overtaking a car on worn tyres when yours are as fresh as daisies ain't magic, it's inevitable.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Magic? Magic? Overtaking a car on worn tyres when yours are as fresh as daisies ain't magic, it's inevitable.

It was still a lovely little move. Thrillingly executed.

[philipbain]

Magic? Magic? Overtaking a car on worn tyres when yours are as fresh as daisies ain't magic, it's inevitable.

Thats a good point, that one was more about the rate at which Mansell managed to close the gap to be able to pass him rather than the pass its self, he had to outpace Piquet by about 1.5 seconds per lap without burning too much fuel (in the days of 195 litres per race with fuel hungry turbos) to catch him, once he was on him the pass was indeed inevitable but it was done in style none the less.

[V12]

I'd nominate Mansell's move on Senna at Hungary '89 as up there ahead of a few on that list too, deciding the best of the best is tough.

Come to think of it, that's three Mansell moves I'd have on my shortlist, together with Silverstone '87 and Mexico '90, reminding myself why I was such a fan!

[woody2goody]

Maybe not THE greatest, but I'll shout Nick Heidfeld for two great double overtakes at Silverstone last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VLdPDo6mP4

edit: I came across this video, and all these moves are epic. The answer to the original question: any move by Nick Heidfeld ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Magic? Magic? Overtaking a car on worn tyres when yours are as fresh as daisies ain't magic, it's inevitable.
:up: :up: :up:

[philipbain]

I'd nominate Mansell's move on Senna at Hungary '89 as up there ahead of a few on that list too, deciding the best of the best is tough.

Come to think of it, that's three Mansell moves I'd have on my shortlist, together with Silverstone '87 and Mexico '90, reminding myself why I was such a fan!

Nah, the hungary move wasnt as classic as people like to make out, merely very opportunistic, Senna got bad baulked by a very slow mark marker in just the wrong place (the exit of a reasonably quick corner), Mansell had the space to keep the momentum and did not have to lift for the back marker giving him the opportunity to pass, so a well taken move, yes, but hardly up there with the greatest overtaking moves.

However, Mexico in 1990 was just sheer bravery, going into a plainly dangerous (little in the way of run off) and very bumpy corner almost flat in top gear around the outside, off the clean racing line and just keeping it flat and hoping the car would stick on worn tyres is massively brave and amazingly it came off where it might have resulted in 2 other outcomes, those being Mansell losing grip and spearing off the track at unabated speed or Berger keeping his foot in too which would have no doubt resulted in a massive shunt. In the event Mansell's Ferrari stuck and Berger got out of the throttle but it could have been very different, so what is remembered as an excellent overtake could have been remembered for all the wrong reasons.

[philipbain]

Another classic, well actually the same awesome move twice! Keke Rosberg at Monaco in 1986 passing Michele Alboreto on the outside of the start/finish "straight" not once but twice, as he caught him, passed him, pulled away for him, then went for tyres and did the whole thing again! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htctyGDn0-Q&feature=PlayList&p=35A094CF05FE1A85&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=15

[UltimateDanGTR]

Another classic, well actually the same awesome move twice! Keke Rosberg at Monaco in 1986 passing Michele Alboreto on the outside of the start/finish "straight" not once but twice, as he caught him, passed him, pulled away for him, then went for tyres and did the whole thing again! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htctyGDn0-Q&feature=PlayList&p=35A094CF05FE1A85&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=15

now thats some skills right there.

Just shows how much easier it was to overtake back then, i miss those days :(

[Roamy]

What about Villeneuve around the OUTSIDE of Schumacher on the last corner in Potugal in '96? Have a butchers at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlFWvaQCS1w

Phil - I was there sitting in that specific stand and I can tell you it was awesome. Lap after lap JV drove up to push the marbles off the outside of the turn and then made his move. He has been very underrated but I have witnessed his talent!!!

[SGWilko]

Magic? Magic? Overtaking a car on worn tyres when yours are as fresh as daisies ain't magic, it's inevitable.

As fresh as daisies - after pounding the guts out of them and producing fastest lap after fastest lap for half the race, making up over half a minute defecit?

[wedge]

It was still a lovely little move. Thrillingly executed.

:up:

Mansell jinking one way and going the other and Piquet still fought back by going wheel to wheel into the apex of Stowe even though he had the inferior line.

You could use a lot of excuses for some superb overtaking moves, eg. Japan 2005, Alonso blatantly in the superior car overtaking Schumi on the outside into 130R but IMHO it defines a great overtaking move: one where for a second it takes your breath away and admire the sight of racing wheel to wheel.

[ArrowsFA1]

As fresh as daisies - after pounding the guts out of them and producing fastest lap after fastest lap for half the race, making up over half a minute defecit?
No doubt Mansell's drive that day was impressive, but fresh tyres and increasing the turbo boost gave him the speed advantage. IIRC Williams were telling him to reduce the boost or the fuel wouldn't last, which would perhaps explain why Piquet didn't respond. Luckily for Mansell the fuel did, just about, get him through that last lap.

The fresh tyres thing reminds me of Mansell v Senna at Monaco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5AWV8wV_Y). Again, after a pitstop NM was on fresh rubber chasing down the leader. Although it was Monaco, this for me highlighted the difference between the two drivers. Senna, implaccable and in control of the situation. Mansell, dodging and weaving about hoping for an error or something to get an opening. He didn't appear to have the imagination to figure out how to use the advantage he had. Yes, I know it was Monaco... :)

And another one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG6gT7w5OoU. Watch which driver holds his line down the straight, and which one doesn't.

Still...Mansell had balls. No doubt about that. And speed.

[wedge]

The fresh tyres thing reminds me of Mansell v Senna at Monaco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5AWV8wV_Y). Again, after a pitstop NM was on fresh rubber chasing down the leader. Although it was Monaco, this for me highlighted the difference between the two drivers. Senna, implaccable and in control of the situation. Mansell, dodging and weaving about hoping for an error or something to get an opening. He didn't appear to have the imagination to figure out how to use the advantage he had. Yes, I know it was Monaco... :)

And another one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG6gT7w5OoU. Watch which driver holds his line down the straight, and which one doesn't.

Still...Mansell had balls. No doubt about that. And speed.

Typical attacking style from Mansell. He will push for a gap and try go for it, much like Lewis Hamiliton is criticised for moving around.

I remember James Hunt criticised Mansell's macho posturing and thought those movements uneccessary and hazardous. Mansell was the type enjoying showing off how big his balls were. I personally loved it and thought it was a great spectacle.

Even Senna lost his cool composure at times eg. 1991 German GP where he moved across the braking zone and Prost was adamant Senna tried to take him out.

Schumi was the same. He was accused of the infamous Chop all too often and yet he had cool calm composure with no exaggerated movements holding off Hill in Spa 1995 and Alonso at Imola 2006.

[markabilly]

Typical attacking style from Mansell. He will push for a gap and try go for it, much like Lewis Hamiliton is criticised for moving around.

I remember James Hunt criticised Mansell's macho posturing and thought those movements uneccessary and hazardous. Mansell was the type enjoying showing off how big his balls were. I personally loved it and thought it was a great spectacle.

Even Senna lost his cool composure at times eg. 1991 German GP where he moved across the braking zone and Prost was adamant Senna tried to take him out.

Schumi was the same. He was accused of the infamous Chop all too often and yet he had cool calm composure with no exaggerated movements holding off Hill in Spa 1995 and Alonso at Imola 2006.
Now you know what you are talking about.......geeass, I could see you mentioning JPM and Andretti in the same breath (we all sin sometimes), but Clark??

I was trying to think of a great pass put on by Clark, but problem is he was always so far out in Qing and the race, there just never was the need for "great passes", as probably more than 95% of his "passes" was when he lapped someone

[wedge]

I was trying to think of a great pass put on by Clark, but problem is he was always so far out in Qing and the race, there just never was the need for "great passes", as probably more than 95% of his "passes" was when he lapped someone

Monza?

Media coverage was inferior in those 'good old days'.

[markabilly]

Monza?

Media coverage was inferior in those 'good old days'.
yes but they were not great passes per se, he was just so much faster through the corners that he just passed them just about as though he was lapping them

atleast the ones i saw

i always thought his two most specatular moves was two spins at indy in 1966, a race i still think he won, spun around caught it and kept on going without stopping

at the time, it was pretty much unheard to spin where he did and not hit the wall or stall out--did it twice!!!

to this day, i think the scorers assumed he lost a lap there.....and did not score him correctly......it was all manual then, no computers

As fresh as daisies - after pounding the guts out of them and producing fastest lap after fastest lap for half the race, making up over half a minute defecit?

As opposed to the set Piquet was on, that had done the full distance, then yes, "fresh as daisies" is quite an apt description.

It is an utter myth that Silverstone 87 was a fantastic drive....Piquet was deliberately kept in the dark about Mansell's lap-times until it was too late for him to change.

Mansell didn't win so much as Williams cheated Piquet out of it.

No doubt Mansell's drive that day was impressive, but fresh tyres and increasing the turbo boost gave him the speed advantage. IIRC Williams were telling him to reduce the boost or the fuel wouldn't last, which would perhaps explain why Piquet didn't respond. Luckily for Mansell the fuel did, just about, get him through that last lap.

The fresh tyres thing reminds me of Mansell v Senna at Monaco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5AWV8wV_Y). Again, after a pitstop NM was on fresh rubber chasing down the leader. Although it was Monaco, this for me highlighted the difference between the two drivers. Senna, implaccable and in control of the situation. Mansell, dodging and weaving about hoping for an error or something to get an opening. He didn't appear to have the imagination to figure out how to use the advantage he had. Yes, I know it was Monaco... :)

And another one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG6gT7w5OoU. Watch which driver holds his line down the straight, and which one doesn't.

Still...Mansell had balls. No doubt about that. And speed.

Never understood why, with such a dominant car, Mansell never extended his lead beyond the 18 seconds he easily built up after 10 laps.

A 30 second lead, which he could easily have achieved, would have given him the time to get a pit-stop in.

That alone marked him out to be not just brave, not just ballsy, but dumb too and utterly unworthy of the title.

No wonder Williams and Renault didn't meet his wage demands for the following year.

[UltimateDanGTR]

surely the best move in F1 history is Michael Schumacher moving to Ferrari from Bennetton in 1996?

[wedge]

As opposed to the set Piquet was on, that had done the full distance, then yes, "fresh as daisies" is quite an apt description.

It is an utter myth that Silverstone 87 was a fantastic drive....Piquet was deliberately kept in the dark about Mansell's lap-times until it was too late for him to change.

Mansell didn't win so much as Williams cheated Piquet out of it.

They just let them duke it out, one camp against the other.

The flipside was that Mansell was never told of Piquet actual car set ups and Piquet was the favoured driver by Honda.

[D-Type]

yes but they were not great passes per se, he was just so much faster through the corners that he just passed them just about as though he was lapping them

atleast the ones i saw

i always thought his two most specatular moves was two spins at indy in 1966, a race i still think he won, spun around caught it and kept on going without stopping

at the time, it was pretty much unheard to spin where he did and not hit the wall or stall out--did it twice!!!

to this day, i think the scorers assumed he lost a lap there.....and did not score him correctly......it was all manual then, no computers
Not true. They had electronic timing but it recorded onto tape (possibly even ticker tape) so it took time to analyse. As I understand it, the post-race checks showed that Hill had won fair and square.

But I still love the "Too late - I've drunk the milk" quote.

[markabilly]

Not true. They had electronic timing but it recorded onto tape (possibly even ticker tape) so it took time to analyse. As I understand it, the post-race checks showed that Hill had won fair and square.

But I still love the "Too late - I've drunk the milk" quote.
and oswald shot kennedy



actually i really do not know who won, except that clark choose to avoid making it an issue and the so clled electronic scoring, was not what it is today, and was relying on humans

[D-Type]

Admittedly the electronic scoring was not the real time system we have today. I don't know details other than that it required the information to be printed out and scrutinised, which took time. The system may have required a human interface such as "spotters" inputing which car was which but nonetheless it would have contained a set of checks and balances to minimalise errors. Even something as simple as having five spotters and discounting any rogue results would work. All that was needed was a review of the printout for anomalies, eg a lap taking twice as long would suggest a missed lap and a lap that wshowed as far too short bwould suggest a mis-identification.

The mistake in lap counting was by the Lotus pit not by the organisers.

The Indianapolis organisers may have got it wrong in 1911 when their primitive timing wire was broken but by 1966 they had got it right.


Oh, and whose car was leaking oil at Indy in 1963? There's a 'conspiracy' if you want one!

[Alfica]

Well because i like outside moves, i have to put up Alonso's overtake on Schumi in Hungarian GP 2006 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8lZTJuNrEs&NR), Senna on Wendlinger in 1993 European GP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4QC7rtWm0A) and the one and only Gilles Villeneuve on Alan Jones in 1979 Dutch GP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaLRdO10UW8).

[AAReagles]

... and the one and only Gilles Villeneuve on Alan Jones in 1979 Dutch GP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaLRdO10UW8).


His rocketing start when the lights turned green at the 1979 Austrian GP wasn't too shabby either.

Causing race winner Alan Jones to reflect afterwards during a post-race interview that he expected to see a yellow car (Renault) to blow by at the start, but not a red one (Gilles who started 5th on the grid), expressing that at the moment, he (AJ) had the thought of "Where the hell did he come from?"