Explanation why Dario was waved by PT?

[FormerFF]

Did anyone hear a cogent explanation as to why PT was required to let Dario by when Dario pitted at the beginning of the yellow? I understand that when the yellow came out that Dario was ahead, but in every other circumstance I've seen, when you pit under the yellow, you get in line where you come out, not where you were when you went in.

[harvick#1]

maybe Brian France and Mike Helton took over the IRL officiating :p :

[SarahFan]

Indycar replyed to my email regarding Tracy/Dario...the response
Thank you for your message, we appreciate you taking the time to write in.

The ruling to place the #15 car of Paul Tracy behind the #10 car of Dario Franchitti was made after timing and scoring data and conclusive video evidence in race control showed the #10 car beat the #15 car to the blend line at pit out.

The blend line at pit exit was discussed in detail during both drivers meetings held prior to the race at Toronto and there were numerous opportunities for drivers to ask questions.

This may not have been explained or shown by our television partner for the Toronto event, but we hold no influence over our broadcast partners’ coverage of our events.

Thanks for your interest in the IndyCar Series and Firestone Indy Lights




^^^^I stole the above from a poster on another board....

[grungex]

What a crock.

[beachbum]

What a crock.Why? Because you don't like it? If Dario beat PT to the line at the end of pit out, he was ahead. The fact that PT was probably going much faster as the pace car hadn't picked up the pack and passed Dario doesn't change what happened at the line.

I think the funny part of the email was basically saying that ABC had its collective head up its butt and wasn't capable of figuring out what happened.

[NickFalzone]

I don't like the ruling, but Dario was asked about it and said the call was explained and made sense to him. He's maybe the last guy that would disagree with it, but he could have said he needed to look into it more if he was unsure. The rule is the rule and it appears they followed it correctly. It does seem to be a stupid rule though, I've never seen someone pit and not lose their spot in a race ever before.

[TURN3]

According to PT's online posts, KV looked at the video after the race extensively and found that PT was in fact ahead at the blend line. I suppose we don't know where the definitive line is so hard for us to make a judgement unless we can know that and see the footage.

[grungex]

Why? Because you don't like it?
No, because it's typical BS officiating and lies from Barnhart and Co. There is no way on earth that Dario made a pit stop and exited ahead of PT, he was not that far ahead, and you know it. It's pretty hilarious that every fan on the planet saw this for the farce it is, yet are now falling all over themselves to believe the official Pravda version.

[Hoop-98]

No, because it's typical BS officiating and lies from Barnhart and Co. There is no way on earth that Dario made a pit stop and exited ahead of PT, he was not that far ahead, and you know it. It's pretty hilarious that every fan on the planet saw this for the farce it is, yet are now falling all over themselves to believe the official Pravda version.

You have some evidence to support what every fan on the planet saw?

Just wondering...


rh

[grungex]

I assume you must have proof otherwise, then, so post up.

[TURN3]

You have some evidence to support what every fan on the planet saw?

Just wondering...


rh


And what is it that every fan on the planet saw? You seem to imply that everybody agrees that the call was correct yet I have yet to see anybody form an opinion in agreement with your implication. Most people never have seen a proper replay and those who think they have seem to think IRL made one of their usual BS calls.

So, since you're getting so good at posting evidence to contradict your theories...please humor us again. I think anybody with an interest in the subject would be appreciative of that.

[chuck34]

Well I don't want to come off as a defender of the IRL's call on this one, but I probably will sound like that. But the IRL response that Ken posted actually seems logical. Although maybe hard to believe, at least it sounds (for now) to be a real reason. And how hard is it to believe that ABC would screw up and not show us something important?

I have a few questions. Does anyone know where the timing loops are? I would think there has to be one at Start/Finnish, but is there one at the blend line? Is there any way that we can see the video evidence the IRL is speaking of? Was there anyone there that actually saw what happened?

I'm reserving judgement for now because it sounds so suspicious that someone could pit and not be passed by someone on track. But then again there is, at least claims of, timing and video evidence that shows it did happen.

[beachbum]

Well I don't want to come off as a defender of the IRL's call on this one, but I probably will sound like that. But the IRL response that Ken posted actually seems logical. Although maybe hard to believe, at least it sounds (for now) to be a real reason. And how hard is it to believe that ABC would screw up and not show us something important?

I have a few questions. Does anyone know where the timing loops are? I would think there has to be one at Start/Finnish, but is there one at the blend line? Is there any way that we can see the video evidence the IRL is speaking of? Was there anyone there that actually saw what happened?

I'm reserving judgement for now because it sounds so suspicious that someone could pit and not be passed by someone on track. But then again there is, at least claims of, timing and video evidence that shows it did happen.I too am reserving judgment and accepting the call - for now. Just because something seems improbable doesn't mean it didn't happen. But it would be nice if there was a clear video and definition about the location of the timing line. As far as I can find, there isn't any video in the public domain. If there is, someone should post it.

I also wonder how many people have their opinion clouded by what happened at Indy a few years ago with PT. That was then, this is now.

[jimispeed]

Well I don't want to come off as a defender of the IRL's call on this one, but I probably will sound like that. But the IRL response that Ken posted actually seems logical. Although maybe hard to believe, at least it sounds (for now) to be a real reason. And how hard is it to believe that ABC would screw up and not show us something important?

I have a few questions. Does anyone know where the timing loops are? I would think there has to be one at Start/Finnish, but is there one at the blend line? Is there any way that we can see the video evidence the IRL is speaking of? Was there anyone there that actually saw what happened?

I'm reserving judgement for now because it sounds so suspicious that someone could pit and not be passed by someone on track. But then again there is, at least claims of, timing and video evidence that shows it did happen.

Anyone know where we can find that "Video Evidence"?????

[dataman1]

I can not speak to the IRL but I can say that when CCWS/CART ran there the timing lines were at the entrance and exit of pit lane plus another roughly 3 quarters of the way into the pits that coincided with Start/Finish line. We would also paint a Blue/White hashed line in the middle of the timing lines directly on the track for visibility by drivers. Additionally we placed Blue/White indicators on driver's left against the wall and on the fence.

From my experience I could see where PT thought he was ahead. While he comes down the main straight he sees DF in his pit box. He is most likely running 50 - 70 MPH or in that range. The egress white line for cars coming out of the pits is far driver's right and they must stay there. So DF would have to come out and stay far right while PT passed him on the left. The question remains, who got to the timing line first? IRL says it was Dario.

We need video.

[jimispeed]

I can not speak to the IRL but I can say that when CCWS/CART ran there the timing lines were at the entrance and exit of pit lane plus another roughly 3 quarters of the way into the pits that coincided with Start/Finish line. We would also paint a Blue/White hashed line in the middle of the timing lines directly on the track for visibility by drivers. Additionally we placed Blue/White indicators on driver's left against the wall and on the fence.

From my experience I could see where PT thought he was ahead. While he comes down the main straight he sees DF in his pit box. He is most likely running 50 - 70 MPH or in that range. The egress white line for cars coming out of the pits is far driver's right and they must stay there. So DF would have to come out and stay far right while PT passed him on the left. The question remains, who got to the timing line first? IRL says it was Dario.

We need video.

Yes we do!!

and by the way......lately I miss CART/Champcar, and lately it's been hard to fathom that maybe we'll never see the sleek, signature hoop that those cars retained for so many years! Plus I miss the CART/Champcar girls/Turbos/Personal feeling you got at the track........testing with paddocks open to the fans etc.......it ***** me off sometimes.....

I know....random, but it's tragic. Those cars looked and performed like no other.....

[chuck34]

Yes we do!!

and by the way......lately I miss CART/Champcar, and lately it's been hard to fathom that maybe we'll never see the sleek, signature hoop that those cars retained for so many years! Plus I miss the CART/Champcar girls/Turbos/Personal feeling you got at the track........testing with paddocks open to the fans etc.......it p***** me off sometimes.....

I know....random, but it's tragic. Those cars looked and performed like no other.....

***** can't we have one thread about racing without bringing up how great CART was, or how crappy the IRL, or how much of an idiot TG is? Come on there are plenty of other threads for this crap!

[jimispeed]

***** can't we have one thread about racing without bringing up how great CART was, or how crappy the IRL, or how much of an idiot TG is? Come on there are plenty of other threads for this crap!


Sorry....I never pointed fingers, or placed any judgement. But it is hard sometimes when you grew up with Indy, and then CART.

You're right, probably shouldn't have said anything. My dad exposed me to all of it in the late 70's, and it was a huge part of our lives! Kinda like being an old school die hard Packer fan. Can you imagine erasing a legacy??

Sorry forget it.....

[peasant]

***** can't we have one thread about racing without bringing up how great CART was, or how crappy the IRL, or how much of an idiot TG is? Come on there are plenty of other threads for this crap!

Hmm. I wonder why it's hard to get away from that chuck.....

[chuck34]

Hmm. I wonder why it's hard to get away from that chuck.....

Who cares? I love the original IRL. Back when you had engine builders doing their own thing, different chassis, different engines, driver's I'd followed comming up through the ranks, etc, etc. But you don't see me droning on and on about it over and over again, in every thread possible.

[Hoop-98]

Yes strangely 6 seconds slower than F1 is great....

As far as proof i have no proof or position, just wondered who did....because some have a solid postition, figured they saw the proof..

Save me a lot of time converting the pdfs and getting the section data.

hey there's a thought, make the reports available in CVS!!!

rh

[Hoop-98]

I bought Acrobat so I could export the pdf's into text, but seems someone has already posted the section time data:

Tracy was behind by .2 at the blend line.

Car 10, hit the pit-in line at 14:23:26.8077 (Time of day)

Car 15, hit the track side of the pit in line at 14:23:46.5509

This shows that the gap between the 10 and the 15 was 19.7432 seconds.

Car 10, hit the blend-line (pit-side) at 14:23:53.4069

Car 15, hit the blend-line (track-side) at 14:23:53.6070

That shows Car 10 ahead at the blend line by 0.2001 seconds.

That means Dario’s Pit-in to Pit-out time was 25.5992 seconds.

The 15 car’s time from equivalent timelines (track side) was 7.0561 seconds.

If you add the 7.0561 seconds to the gap of 19.7432 seconds (the time between when the 10 car hit pit-in and when the 15 car hit I11, you get a time of 26.7993 seconds.

That is a difference of 0.2001 seconds, and that is exactly the difference at the blend-line.


I will disassemble the scoring data later, but I am pretty sure it will back this up.
We all do want to find the truth right?

I have a txt file with the data if anyone wants me to email it.

rh

[chuck34]

I bought Acrobat so I could export the pdf's into text, but seems someone has already posted the section time data:

Tracy was behind by .2 at the blend line.

Car 10, hit the pit-in line at 14:23:26.8077 (Time of day)

Car 15, hit the track side of the pit in line at 14:23:46.5509

This shows that the gap between the 10 and the 15 was 19.7432 seconds.

Car 10, hit the blend-line (pit-side) at 14:23:53.4069

Car 15, hit the blend-line (track-side) at 14:23:53.6070

That shows Car 10 ahead at the blend line by 0.2001 seconds.

That means Dario’s Pit-in to Pit-out time was 25.5992 seconds.

The 15 car’s time from equivalent timelines (track side) was 7.0561 seconds.

If you add the 7.0561 seconds to the gap of 19.7432 seconds (the time between when the 10 car hit pit-in and when the 15 car hit I11, you get a time of 26.7993 seconds.

That is a difference of 0.2001 seconds, and that is exactly the difference at the blend-line.


I will disassemble the scoring data later, but I am pretty sure it will back this up.
We all do want to find the truth right?

I have a txt file with the data if anyone wants me to email it.

rh

Sounds conclusive to me. I'm pretty sure that's what the IRL guys would have looked at.

Now does anyone have PT and KV's email addresses? :=)

[jimispeed]

Ah yes, you must mean "performed" pitifully compared to F1. :D

Be carefull of over use of hyperbola, it'll bite you. ;)


apples and oranges.......not worth the breath

[TURN3]

I bought Acrobat so I could export the pdf's into text, but seems someone has already posted the section time data:

Tracy was behind by .2 at the blend line.

Car 10, hit the pit-in line at 14:23:26.8077 (Time of day)

Car 15, hit the track side of the pit in line at 14:23:46.5509

This shows that the gap between the 10 and the 15 was 19.7432 seconds.

Car 10, hit the blend-line (pit-side) at 14:23:53.4069

Car 15, hit the blend-line (track-side) at 14:23:53.6070

That shows Car 10 ahead at the blend line by 0.2001 seconds.

That means Dario’s Pit-in to Pit-out time was 25.5992 seconds.

The 15 car’s time from equivalent timelines (track side) was 7.0561 seconds.

If you add the 7.0561 seconds to the gap of 19.7432 seconds (the time between when the 10 car hit pit-in and when the 15 car hit I11, you get a time of 26.7993 seconds.

That is a difference of 0.2001 seconds, and that is exactly the difference at the blend-line.


I will disassemble the scoring data later, but I am pretty sure it will back this up.
We all do want to find the truth right?

I have a txt file with the data if anyone wants me to email it.

rh

Haven't looked back to where all this came from but it is great. If the truth is what happened then so be it. Sucks to be on track when a yellow came out. Obviously PT has to go slower than race pace but those guys hustle like hell until the pace car picks them up. At any rate, I'd like to have seen those 2 battle to the end. Pt's car was bettere on long runs and Dario fell off. Would've gotten pretty exciting.

Kudos.

[beachbum]

Haven't looked back to where all this came from but it is great. If the truth is what happened then so be it. Sucks to be on track when a yellow came out. Obviously PT has to go slower than race pace but those guys hustle like hell until the pace car picks them up. At any rate, I'd like to have seen those 2 battle to the end. Pt's car was bettere on long runs and Dario fell off. Would've gotten pretty exciting.

Kudos.Actually, the data shows PT didn't slow at all until well past the pits. Obviously he was trying to pass Dario before he got out. He almost made it too - but not quite.

You are right, it is a shame PT crashed out. The last few laps may have been very interesting

[SarahFan]

I bought Acrobat so I could export the pdf's into text, but seems someone has already posted the section time data:

Tracy was behind by .2 at the blend line.

Car 10, hit the pit-in line at 14:23:26.8077 (Time of day)

Car 15, hit the track side of the pit in line at 14:23:46.5509

This shows that the gap between the 10 and the 15 was 19.7432 seconds.

Car 10, hit the blend-line (pit-side) at 14:23:53.4069

Car 15, hit the blend-line (track-side) at 14:23:53.6070

That shows Car 10 ahead at the blend line by 0.2001 seconds.

That means Dario’s Pit-in to Pit-out time was 25.5992 seconds.

The 15 car’s time from equivalent timelines (track side) was 7.0561 seconds.

If you add the 7.0561 seconds to the gap of 19.7432 seconds (the time between when the 10 car hit pit-in and when the 15 car hit I11, you get a time of 26.7993 seconds.

That is a difference of 0.2001 seconds, and that is exactly the difference at the blend-line.


I will disassemble the scoring data later, but I am pretty sure it will back this up.
We all do want to find the truth right?

I have a txt file with the data if anyone wants me to email it.

rh


what he^ said

[Hoop-98]

Actually Dario was a lot faster than Paul at the end.

I am playing around with the data but it is very time consuming.

Here are pauls speeds by lap.

http://i26.tinypic.com/sb1x08.jpg

rh

[Marbles]

You can't argue with Hoop's times. I'm confident this issue will be addressed at the beginning of the next race on Versus.

Back off topic... :D


Ah yes, you must mean "performed" pitifully compared to F1. :D

Be carefull of over use of hyperbola, it'll bite you. ;)

"Pitifully" is somewhat of an overstatement in my estimation :) . Weren't they putting in Minardi like times when they first went to Montreal? And that was long after they nerfed the turbos.

[Hoop-98]

You can't argue with Hoop's times. I'm confident this issue will be addressed at the beginning of the next race on Versus.

Back off topic... :D



"Pitifully" is somewhat of an overstatement in my estimation :) . Weren't they putting in Minardi like times when they first went to Montreal? And that was long after they nerfed the turbos.

They were 6-8 off if I remember correctly I have the numbers somewhere. They were way off in trap speeds. I think they were making about 850 or so in 2000.

BTW the Time of Day stamps came from Indy PR, credit where credit is due, I did verify the interval times from the session results.

You could say Paul got screwed by that yellow but the only reason he was in that position is Dario got screwed by the first one, sorta goes around.

Also Tracy's fastest time of the day on that section ( parralel to the pit lane)was that lap, 146 MPH. Obviously he would have been a good 4 or 5 seconds ahead of Dario without the Yellow, that would have been interesting.

What really screwed him was a 4 second longer pit stop 2 laps earlier.

The fastest overall car won, IMHO, sometimes they do in spite of themselves ;n)

rh

[SarahFan]

Dario was the guy to beat .... that was crystal clear


it was an interesting race.... cant imagine anyone who watched didn't enjoy it