Can Vettel overtake? [Archive]

wedge

13th July 2009, 14:12

The Red Bull isn't very good at following in other cars' dirty wake.

Same with every other contemporary F1 car.

Button can see an opportunity and take it with both hands. He passed Massa crucially on the first stint.

Have yet to see Vettel show racecraft in the dry, create something from nothing.

ioan

13th July 2009, 14:13

Same with every other contemporary F1 car.

Not really.

Have yet to see Vettel show racecraft in the dry, create something from nothing.

Are you for real?!
Go watch Harry Potter, please. :rotflmao:

wedge

13th July 2009, 14:36

Are you for real?!
Go watch Harry Potter, please. :rotflmao:

Laugh it up, fuzzball

It called racecraft:

Alonso beating Schumi in an inferior car in Imola 2005 and Turkey 2006

Hamilton's oppurtunistic pass on Kimi in Monza 2007

Schumi/slicks beating Hill/wets at damp/wet Spa 1995

ioan

13th July 2009, 14:41

Laugh it up, fuzzball

It called racecraft:

Alonso beating Schumi in an inferior car in Imola 2005 and Turkey 2006

Hamilton's oppurtunistic pass on Kimi in Monza 2007

Schumi/slicks beating Hill/wets at damp/wet Spa 1995

Well it's only Vettel's 2nd full season, maybe in a couple of years he'll have done plenty of hocus-pocus and abracadabra. Why question the ability of a driver after some 25 races and comapre him with drivers who did well over 100?!

wedge

13th July 2009, 15:03

Big Ben

13th July 2009, 15:31

Same with every other contemporary F1 car.

Button can see an opportunity and take it with both hands. He passed Massa crucially on the first stint.

Have yet to see Vettel show racecraft in the dry, create something from nothing.

Many see Button as an opportunity and overtake him with one hand.

Big Ben

13th July 2009, 15:34

Laugh it up, fuzzball

It called racecraft:

Alonso beating Schumi in an inferior car in Imola 2005 and Turkey 2006

Hamilton's oppurtunistic pass on Kimi in Monza 2007

Schumi/slicks beating Hill/wets at damp/wet Spa 1995

Schumi overtaking Button at Imola... a few years ago... actually that's not that much racecraft, afterall Button is known for being easy to overtake.

BeansBeansBeans

13th July 2009, 15:35

It called racecraft

Racecraft isn't all about overtaking. It's about playing the race to achieve the best possible result. Hamilton's racecraft is pretty poor, as he often makes unforced errors. However, he makes up for it in outright speed and talent.

ioan

13th July 2009, 16:24

Hamilton made some stunning manoeuvers in his rookie year.

Alesi made a stunning debut going against Senna at Phoenix.

Senna had stunning rookie year dragging a fledging Toleman into points finishes after coming from nowhere.

And Vettel won a race in his first full season! :rolleyes:

Looks like he did better than Alesi and Senna at least, and even than Hamilton when you consider he was racing in an STR not an all mighty McLaren.

ioan

13th July 2009, 16:26

Many see Button as an opportunity and overtake him with one hand.

I don't even see why we are talking about Button in a thread where Vettel is being compared with the likes of Schumacher and Senna.
Button is still a curbstone when the car is not fastest by a large margin.

wedge

13th July 2009, 16:28

Racecraft isn't all about overtaking.

Never said it was. That's why I originally mentioned examples of defensive driving, not just overtaking.

WDC is Buttton's to lose. What has Vettel got to lose sitting second in points? Maximum attack all the way, just as Schumi did this time in 2006.

wedge

13th July 2009, 16:34

And Vettel won a race in his first full season! :rolleyes:

Looks like he did better than Alesi and Senna at least, and even than Hamilton when you consider he was racing in an STR not an all mighty McLaren.

Or perhaps Vettel can only win whenever he's on pole? :rolleyes:

ioan

13th July 2009, 16:38

Or perhaps Vettel can only win whenever he's on pole? :rolleyes:

So now if you win from pole is a bad thing?!

You're looking not very smart trying to denigrate a driver by comparing him to drivers he did better than up to the same moment in his career and when pointed that out you come up with something even less intelligent!

Way to go, now I know at least that you are just a hater and it's useless to try to have a meaningful conversation with you. :wave:

BeansBeansBeans

13th July 2009, 16:46

I do enjoy this forum. They should make one for grown-ups.

wedge

13th July 2009, 17:21

So now if you win from pole is a bad thing?!

You're looking not very smart trying to denigrate a driver by comparing him to drivers he did better than up to the same moment in his career and when pointed that out you come up with something even less intelligent!

Way to go, now I know at least that you are just a hater and it's useless to try to have a meaningful conversation with you. :wave:

Schumi and Vettel's career are somewhat similar drove inferior cars in their debut races/first full season.

The difference Schumi came from nowhere to win and judged the changing conditions perfectly.

Am I a Vettel hater? No. I admire him but he's not perfect - and neither was Schumi for that matter.

I'm happy to admit I'm a Lewis fan but I'm happy to admit that he has faults that I despise - too hot headed racer, liar.

Hate to say this (because I don't want be in trouble with mods) but the difference is that you can't handle criticism very well. I criticise Vettel and I'm a Vettel hater. I criticise Massa/Ferrari and you call me a Massa/Ferrari hater. Very intelligent contributions to debates *claps hands*

ioan

13th July 2009, 17:51

Hate to say this (because I don't want be in trouble with mods) but the difference is that you can't handle criticism very well. I criticise Vettel and I'm a Vettel hater. I criticise Massa/Ferrari and you call me a Massa/Ferrari hater. Very intelligent contributions to debates *claps hands*

The problem isn't that you criticize Vettel, the problem is that when someone contradicts, with valid facts IMO, your unfounded criticism, you start coming up with childish reasons to continue to criticize. When I see such behavior I can't find a logic reason to continue discussing only to have to contend with such petty arguments.

People in the past said MS couldn't pass. Statistics prove otherwise.
They also said Ralf can't pass, still the guy pulled something like 10 overtaking moves at Hungaroring back in the day.
Than it was Massa can't overtake and he proved them wrong with excellent overtaking moves.

We had the 'Vettel only won by luck last season' comments, than he won again ' so we got to the 'He can only win on a wet track', he went on to win in Silverstone by a mile so now it's Vettel can't pass and that after Vettel, just to name one of his best moves, passed Lewy 'way to big balls' Hamilton last year in Brazil.

Dave B

13th July 2009, 18:44

Well it's only Vettel's 2nd full season, maybe in a couple of years he'll have done plenty of hocus-pocus and abracadabra. Why question the ability of a driver after some 25 races and comapre him with drivers who did well over 100?!
One of the comparisons was with Hamilton's 2007 season. Remind me just how much F1 experience Lewis had by then? :laugh:

I think that it's a combination of the RBR being a pig in turbulance, and Vettel being cautious about his championship situation - especially with his team mate breathing down his neck.

Tazio

13th July 2009, 19:00

I do enjoy this forum. They should make one for grown-ups.

:rotflmao:

Dave B

13th July 2009, 19:03

I do enjoy this forum. They should make one for grown-ups.
And where would the fun be in that? :p

ioan

13th July 2009, 20:02

I wonder where we have experienced an attitude like this before.. Um, no wait it'll come to me eventually... :p

I love your comment about childish arguements, and then you do exactly that in your last paragraph...Oh dear..... I hope you see the irony ioan.. ;)

Look who's talking, again! :rotflmao:

wedge

14th July 2009, 00:56

People in the past said MS couldn't pass.

Utter BS. Schumi could fight with Senna in his first full year in F1 and Senna threw his toys out the pram.

We had the 'Vettel only won by luck last season' comments, than he won again ' so we got to the 'He can only win on a wet track', he went on to win in Silverstone by a mile so now it's Vettel can't pass and that after Vettel, just to name one of his best moves, passed Lewy 'way to big balls' Hamilton last year in Brazil.

Only one good passing manouever?

Valve Bounce

14th July 2009, 01:24

Racecraft isn't all about overtaking. It's about playing the race to achieve the best possible result. Hamilton's racecraft is pretty poor, as he often makes unforced errors. However, he makes up for it in outright speed and talent.

You are quite right there - Hamilton's driving was brilliant in his rookie year. However, Vettel is showing great speed on the track, especially in this year's Red Bull. Of course, he has a great advantage as Red Bull gives him wings.

Valve Bounce

14th July 2009, 01:26

I do enjoy this forum. They should make one for grown-ups.

No good! can't take your toys there for throwing them out of the pram. :(

CNR

14th July 2009, 08:23

Sebastian only needs to be 3 points a head for the rest of the races
with 8 races both mark(22.5) and Sebastian(21) could be ahead by the end of the season.

(2 retirements for Jensen and that 20 points gone)

going on the 9 races so far redbull have not had any mechanical retirements
brawn has had 1 with mechanical retirement with Rubens

Big Ben

14th July 2009, 08:37

The guy is 22 years old, won 3 gps, one in a STR, he's the youngest driver to ever win a race and at this age he's fighting for the WDC and people start a thread purposely just to bash me. It's absolutely ridiculous.

BeansBeansBeans

14th July 2009, 09:44

leopard

14th July 2009, 10:01

Hold on! Are you Sebastien Vettel?

Initial of Sebastian Vettel must be sv

ioan

14th July 2009, 11:01

Utter BS. Schumi could fight with Senna in his first full year in F1 and Senna threw his toys out the pram.

Well, there are several thread burried in the MSF archives with people questioning Michael's overtaking abilities and saying he can only pit pass, not that I agree with them at all.
But at least you are not the only one starting such useless threads. :p

ioan

14th July 2009, 11:03

ShiftingGears

14th July 2009, 11:41

Same with every other contemporary F1 car.
It's all relative. Last year the McLaren was much better at trailing another car than the Ferrari was. The same with the Brawn and the Red Bull.

leopard

14th July 2009, 11:44

Within the top 5?

Is he too inclined for the pit strategy/pit pass to play out?

Overtaking ability is only one thing for drivers in order to be concerned as complete package. The more important thing is ability to determine the right approach of strategy for every race.

A driver might not be able to perform overtaking perhaps he carried more load of fuel on the car, on the other hand he can have benefit of flexibility from entering pit-stop later or anytime considered beneficial for him.

I think all drivers competing in F1 have been provisioned with such technical skill of overtaking. Felippe Massa is frequently identical with that hardship of overtaking, but whenever the right moment comes, he can do it impressively.

:)

wedge

14th July 2009, 12:29

Overtaking ability is only one thing for drivers in order to be concerned as complete package. The more important thing is ability to determine the right approach of strategy for every race.

A driver might not be able to perform overtaking perhaps he carried more load of fuel on the car, on the other hand he can have benefit of flexibility from entering pit-stop later or anytime considered beneficial for him.

I think all drivers competing in F1 have been provisioned with such technical skill of overtaking. Felippe Massa is frequently identical with that hardship of overtaking, but whenever the right moment comes, he can do it impressively.

:)

Vettel generally had the more aggressive qualy/race strategy, Webber generally fuelled longer for pit passing.

Big Ben

14th July 2009, 13:13

Hold on! Are you Sebastien Vettel?

I wouldn't be here reading this cr@p if I were that's for sure. That was supposed to be HIM... to early in the morning

BeansBeansBeans

14th July 2009, 13:18

I wouldn't be here reading this cr@p if I were that's for sure.

I bet lots of drivers scan the forums. They spend a lot of time travelling or waiting in airports. What else have they got to do?

ioan

14th July 2009, 14:56

I bet lots of drivers scan the forums. They spend a lot of time travelling or waiting in airports. What else have they got to do?

Talk to their relatives and friends?
Talk to their engineers and team members?
Looks for something else than F1?

Plenty of things to do to relax, much better than reading the crap some armchair expert writes about them.

jens

14th July 2009, 22:06

Can Vettel overtake? Well, any driver on the grid can overtake in the right circumstances. Although that's true that some drivers may take more risks than others in attempting to pass. Vettel seems to play it a bit more safe in contemporary F1 indeed. I remember someone exiting the pits right ahead of Vettel, but SV didn't even try to get alongside him anyhow. On the other hand Glock almost lost front wing in fighting with someone and Sutil in fact lost it.

Sleeper

15th July 2009, 01:31

Amswering the initial question: He probably can, but that Red Bull seems particulary sensitive to turbulance and if you dont pass a KERS car within a lap of catching it, you arent getting passed at all.

Garry Walker

15th July 2009, 17:03

Any criticism on Vettel and Ioan goes crazy. Please do continue, this is really amusing me :D

wedge

15th July 2009, 17:20

Any criticism on Vettel and Ioan goes crazy. Please do continue, this is really amusing me :D

Me too! :D

Can Vettel overtake? Well, any driver on the grid can overtake in the right circumstances. Although that's true that some drivers may take more risks than others in attempting to pass. Vettel seems to play it a bit more safe in contemporary F1 indeed. I remember someone exiting the pits right ahead of Vettel, but SV didn't even try to get alongside him anyhow. On the other hand Glock almost lost front wing in fighting with someone and Sutil in fact lost it.

But what will playing it safe do? Nothing, its useless strategy unless the WDC is yours to lose.

Vettel has nothing to lose sitting second place, its Button's to lose, so IMO maximum attack strategy Vettel. That's what Kimi did in 2005, Schumi in 2006, Massa last year (Hungary onwards). Push to the maximum, keep pushing Button into a mistake/engine failure.

jens

15th July 2009, 20:47

But what will playing it safe do? Nothing, its useless strategy unless the WDC is yours to lose.

Vettel has nothing to lose sitting second place, its Button's to lose, so IMO maximum attack strategy Vettel. That's what Kimi did in 2005, Schumi in 2006, Massa last year (Hungary onwards). Push to the maximum, keep pushing Button into a mistake/engine failure.

Well, of course I don't how, how safe does he play or how difficult is it to pass for him - only Vettel himself knows, what he could have possibly done in the situations, where he has been.

But if he indeed consciously plays it safe, I can only assume it's a counterreaction to his start of the season. He was aggressive in the beginning of the season, but crashed both in Australia and Malaysia. Maybe after that the young man got a bit frightened and decided not to play with luck again. Recall, how after Australia Vettel was criticized with words like "a wise man would have played it safe and collected valuable points for the WDC fight."

If his title challenge becomes more realistic as the season progresses, he gains more confidence and sees a realistic opportunity, I'd imagine he'd take more gambles again.