IndyCar Drivers In F1 And Vice Versa

[cynisca]

Sébastien Bourdais's career in the Formula One is going to the end, so let us compare the other drivers who took part at Formula One events who has been coming from the IndyCars and vice versa. I know the following includes not all drivers maybe you know someone who is not in the list. :p :

Sébastien Bourdais (France)
Four-times IndyCar champion (2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007).
Formula One since 2008.

Juan Montoya (Colombia)
1999 IndyCar champion and won the Indy 500 in 2000.
Seven F1 victories.

Emerson Fittipaldi (Brazil)
Twice Indy 500 champion (1989 and 1993). IndyCar champion 1989.
Two world titles (1972 and 1974).

Michael Andretti (USA)
IndyCar champion (1991).
Formula One 1993.

Mario Andretti (USA)
Indy 500 winner 1969. IndyCar champion in 1965, 1966, 1969 and 1984.
World title 1978.

Jim Clark (United Kingdom)
Indy 500 winner 1965.
World title 1963 and 1965.

Graham Hill (United Kingdom)
Indy 500 winner 1966.
World title 1962 and 1968.

Christian Fittipaldi (Brazil)
Two IndyCar race victories.
Formula One 1992-1994.

Enrique Bernoldi (Brazil)
IndyCar 2008.
Formula One 2001-2002.

Timo Glock (Germany)
IndyCar 2005.
Formula One 2004 and since 2008.

Justin Wilson (United Kingdom)
IndyCar 2004-2008.
Formula One 2003.

Antonio Pizzonia (Brazil)
IndyCar 2006 and 2008.
Formula One 2003-2005.

Roberto Moreno (Brazil)
IndyCar 1985-1986, 1996-2001, 2003 and 2007.
Formula One 1982, 1987, 1989-1992 and 1995.

Cristiano Da Matta (Brazil)
IndyCar champion 2002.
Formula One 2003-2004.

Tora Takagi (Japan)
IndyCar 2001-2004.
Formula One 1998-1999.

Alex Zanardi (Italy)
IndyCar champion 1997 and 1998.
Formula One 1991-1994 and 1999.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Nigel Mansell (Great Britain)
F1 Champion 1992
CART Champion 1993

Jacques Villenueve.

[ClarkFan]

There is actually a longer history than that. I know Roger Ward participated in the 1959 US Grand Prix at Sebring, in a dirt track midget, no less. I believe there were other occasions when Indy drivers got rides in the USGP because they were recognized names. The most notable of these was Mario's debut in 1968, when he took the pole in a factory-entered Lotus.

Among sustained participants, Dan Gurney started in sports cars before he broke into the Ferrari F1 team in 1959, but he also raced in Indy cars from time to time. In fact, Gurney was important in convincing Chapman to race at Indy in 1963, helping provide the connection with Ford and finishing 7th in the second Lotus. Gurney finished as high as second at Indy, and won the season-ending Indy car race at Riverside several times.

And Jackie Stewart raced at Indy in 1966 and nearly won. His Lola broke a few laps before the finish, allowing Graham Hill to win. Stewart was named Rookie of the Year at Indy that year, even though Hill was also a rookie in the eyes of the Brickyard.

On a sad note, don't forget Mark Donohue and Mike Spence. The 1972 Indy champion raced most of the 1975 GP season for Penske, before he died from injuries suffered in Austria. Spence was part of the Lotus turbine team at Indianapolis in 1968 but was killed in a practice accident on May 7 (one of the "7th deaths" of 1968 that included Clark).

ClarkFan

[UltimateDanGTR]

can I point out Bourdais wasnt a 4 time indycar champion. he was a 4 time ChampCar champion. 2 different entities.

but anyway, anyone (non-Indycar watchers ;) ) remember Robert Doornbos? hes in Indycar now.

If we are including CART aswell, then another one aswell as Bourdais is ofcourse the great Juan Pablo Montoya.

[D-Type]

Bobby Rahal
CART Champion 1986, 1987 &1992
F1 (2 races) 1978

Nelson Piquet
WDC1981, 1983 & 1987
Indianapolis 1993

and there are others

[Anubis]

Eddie Cheever

A few I can recall dabbling in both CART/IRL and F1, briefly or otherwise :-

Mika Salo
Vincenzo Sospiri
Franck Montagny

[millencolin]

Shinji Nakano

[cynisca]

can I point out Bourdais wasnt a 4 time indycar champion. he was a 4 time ChampCar champion. 2 different entities.

but anyway, anyone (non-Indycar watchers ;) ) remember Robert Doornbos? hes in Indycar now.

If we are including CART aswell, then another one aswell as Bourdais is ofcourse the great Juan Pablo Montoya.

I am an IndyCar watcher then. Today, I have to subscribe Sky Sport (German pay-TV, that's not Sky Sports in UK). And for me the Champ Car/CART and Indy Racing League are IndyCars. There was a lawsuit about the term "IndyCar" which Champ Car/CART lost it.

[cynisca]

Alberto Ascari (Italy)
1952 and 1953 F1 world champion.
And took part at the Indy 500 in 1952. He spun in turn four on lap 40 and has been ranked on position 25.

[jonv]

Justin Wilson left F1 and is now an Indy Car winner.

[jonv]

can I point out Bourdais wasnt a 4 time indycar champion. he was a 4 time ChampCar champion. 2 different entities.


A very good point. ChampCar was a much weaker series with many of the Top drivers moving to IRL.

[UltimateDanGTR]

A very good point. ChampCar was a much weaker series with many of the Top drivers moving to IRL.

and hence why Bourdais managed to win!

[Anubis]

Forgot about Mark Blundell and Mauricio Guglemin. Blundell had a degree of success in CART, including that legendary finish at Portland.

[Jag_Warrior]

Let's not get pulled off topic and get into the what's "Indy Car" thing. Call it "major AOWR", if that works better for everyone. Champ Car was relatively weak in its final days and many of the "stars" in the current IRL would have had to buy a ride when CART was at its height. 'Nuff said.

Jan Magnussen did a spell with McLaren and also a short stint with Penske in CAR... uh, major AOWR. :)

Mad Max Papis spent a partial season with Footwork's F1 team in '95 and moved on to CART in '96.

Good thread. It brings up some names from the (more pleasant) past.

[Anubis]

Magnussen was with Stewart wasn't he? Did Zonta ever race in [insert North American open wheel series of choice here]?

ETA - not forgetting Christian Fittipaldi, if only for looping a Minardi over the finish line at Monza.

[Sonic]

Mad Max Papis spent a partial season with Footwork's F1 team in '95 and moved on to CART in '96.



I LOVED that guy! :D Ah no wait. I'm thinking about Morbidelli. ;)

[UltimateDanGTR]

I LOVED that guy! :D Ah no wait. I'm thinking about Morbidelli. ;)

morbidelli was the good one. Md Max was more intresting because he was funny to watch, but he was outclassed by his hopeless team mate Taki Inoue!

legends of footwork all of them! :D

[Mark]

Amazed that JV only got one mention. IndyCar champion 1995 and F1 champion 1997,

[cynisca]

Amazed that JV only got one mention. IndyCar champion 1995 and F1 champion 1997,

Don't forget his Indy 500 victory in 1995.

[cynisca]

Andrea Montermini (Italy)
Formula One 1994-1996.
IndyCar 1993-1994 and 1999.

[cynisca]

Giovanni Lavaggi (Italy)
Formula One 1995-1996.
IndyCar 1994. But he didn't qualify for any races. Does it count? :p

[ClarkFan]

Giovanni Lavaggi (Italy)
Formula One 1995-1996.
IndyCar 1994. But he didn't qualify for any races. Does it count? :p

It's your thread. You get to decide. ;)

ClarkFan

[wedge]

Bruno Giacomelli

Alessandro Zampedri

JJ Lehto

[Saint Devote]

and hence why Bourdais managed to win!

Eh?!
Bourdais was the French F3 champion and an F3000 champion.

To indirectly declare the IndyCar series as one with "strong" drivers is reaching to say the least.

Bourdais won because he is a very good driver and has proven it.

Just because he has had problems in a team that is not at all an shining example of working with its drivers is no reason to subbish him.

Imagine if Hamilton had entered f1 with the Mclaren alongside Kovaleinnen this year, 2009 - he too would be in the process of being declared "unfit for f1" as is Bourdais.

[Roamy]

Good Points Devote

[gm99]

Alessandro Zampedri


Zampedri never raced in F1, AFAIK.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Eh?!
Bourdais was the French F3 champion and an F3000 champion.

To indirectly declare the IndyCar series as one with "strong" drivers is reaching to say the least.

Bourdais won because he is a very good driver and has proven it.

Just because he has had problems in a team that is not at all an shining example of working with its drivers is no reason to subbish him.

Imagine if Hamilton had entered f1 with the Mclaren alongside Kovaleinnen this year, 2009 - he too would be in the process of being declared "unfit for f1" as is Bourdais.

I dont mean to bash Bourdais, But I have to disagree that he is not as good as most F1 drivers, I dont think he has as much talent.

For example, he was outpaced in the last 2 seasons by rookie team mates in the same car.

Buemi and Vettel have shown me more than Bourdais. Last year the toro rosso was an ok car as Vettel showed, yet bourdais did not. I know you mention about team problems, but we dont know what went on behind the scenes, if you suggest toro rosso is not very well run do you not think that vettel and buemi would experience the same?

Now from that, I wouldnt declare him 'unfit for F1', but not as talented as Most of the current F1 drivers. He is skilled enough to win in F3, F3000 and in america with champcar, but F1 is a different ball game.

also, i dont think i meant anything about indycars with 'strong' drivers at all, Both american series were not the best driver filled in the world, definatly not.

[PA Rick]

Don't forget Mark Donohue. He came in third in the '71 Canadian grand Prix and won the '72 indy 500. He drove in 16 F1 races and 5 Indy 500's.
He drove a for Penske in a Penske/Ford in several Formula 1 races.
There were a few US F1 teams in addition to Penske. Two that come to mind are Shadow and Vels Parnelli Racing.
And the '60's REPCO V8 dominated in the early 3L days and was built using an Oldsmobile block.

[edv]

Teo Fabi
F1 - 1982-1987 with Toleman & Benneton
INDY 500 - 8 appearance between 1983-1995 including pole position and Rookie Of The Year in 1983

Darren Manning
F1 - Test Driver for Williams and BAR (2000?)
IndyCar - 2004 & 2005

Gaston Mazzacane
F1 - 2000 & 2001 (Minardi?)
CART - 2004 (Coyne)

Also, Neel Jani was a backup driver for Torro Rosso in F1 and also drove Champ cars for PKV, but never appeared in an F1 race, I think.

[edv]

Stefan Johansson
F1 - 1980 - 1991
CART - 1992 - 1996 Rookie of the Year for CART in 1991

[cynisca]

Roberto Guerrero (Colombia)
Formula One 1982-1983.
IndyCar 1984-2000.

Danny Sullivan (USA)
Formula One 1983.
IndyCar 1982-1993 and 1995.

[cynisca]

Gaston Mazzacane
F1 - 2000 & 2001 (Minardi?)
CART - 2004 (Coyne)


Gaston Mazzacane drove for Minardi in 2000, and for Prost in 2001.

[woody2goody]

Manning has pretty much driven every year in Indycar since '04. I think he's driven this season too.

Franck Montagny (France):
Formula One (Super Aguri) - 2006 (7 Grands Prix)
Indycar Series (CCWS) - 2008 (Long Beach) - Forsythe Racing (second place!)

Zsolt Baumgartner (Hungary):
Formula One (Jordan, Minardi) - 2003-2004 (20 GPs, 1 Point)
Champ Car (Minardi) - 2007 (no starts)

I know they never technically competed in a grand prix, but:

Bjorn Wirdheim (Sweden):
Formula One Testing (Jaguar) - 2003, 2004
Champ Car - 2005

Mike Conway (Great Britain)
F1 testing (Honda) - 2007, 2008(?)
Indycar Series - 2009 (148 points, 17th of championship)

Neel Jani (Switzerland)
F1 testing (STR) - 2006-2008
Champ Car (PKV) - 2007 (9th in championship)

[Bruce D]

Fabrizio Barbazza was another convert. He raced in Indycars in the 80's (I think he was in the top 10 overall for one season - 84?) and he raced twice in F1, 1991 where he DNQ'd the whole time and in 93 where he scored points.

Jack Brabham also had a crack at the Indy 500 if I remember correctly, as did Jackie Stewart. Mind you, there was a stage where all the F1 teams were checking out the Indy 500, chasing the almighty buck. Crazy thought in these modern times.

[D28]

As posted there is a long list of great and other drivers with F1 and Indy/CART experience. If we look at elite World Champions, I count 14 with some Indy 500 exposure, going back to the very beginnings of F1.

The exclusive club of WC and Indy 500 winners include
Jim Clark
Graham Hill
Mario Andretti
Emerson Fittipaldi
Jacques Villeneuve

World Champions who qualified and competed in the 500 are
Nigell Mansell
Jackie Stewart
Jack Brabham
Alberto Ascari
Jochen Rindt

WC attempting to qualify and missing the show include
G. Farina
J M Fangio
Denis Hulme
Nelson Piquet

I believe this list is complete, assuming Phil Hill never appeared at Indy.

[ClarkFan]

World Champions who qualified and competed in the 500 are
Nigell Mansell
Jackie Stewart
Jack Brabham
Alberto Ascari
Jochen Rindt

I believe this list is complete, assuming Phil Hill never appeared at Indy.
I followed both series during his career, and I believe that Phil Hill never entered the 500.

Forehead smacker for my forgetting Brabham. His entry in a Cooper-Climax in 1961 got the modern era at Indianapolis started. When Cooper and Brabham managed to earn a respectable amount of cash by placing 9th in a seriously underpowered car, that was what got Colin Chapman thinking about the Indy 500 in the first place. That was followed by an approach by Gurney after Gurney ran a mid-engine car for Mickey Thompson in 1962.

ClarkFan

[POS_Maggott]

I've seen all sorts of other test drivers mentioned, but nobody has mentioned Ryan Briscoe yet?

[JimClarkFan]

Dan Gurney

F1 and Indy 500 only
Mark Donohue
Peter Revson
Bruce McLaren
Denny Hulme

[Saint Devote]

Insert the man that could only have been a racing driver: Clay Regazzoni.

[Saint Devote]

I dont mean to bash Bourdais, But I have to disagree that he is not as good as most F1 drivers, I dont think he has as much talent.

For example, he was outpaced in the last 2 seasons by rookie team mates in the same car.

Buemi and Vettel have shown me more than Bourdais. Last year the toro rosso was an ok car as Vettel showed, yet bourdais did not. I know you mention about team problems, but we dont know what went on behind the scenes, if you suggest toro rosso is not very well run do you not think that vettel and buemi would experience the same?

Now from that, I wouldnt declare him 'unfit for F1', but not as talented as Most of the current F1 drivers. He is skilled enough to win in F3, F3000 and in america with champcar, but F1 is a different ball game.

also, i dont think i meant anything about indycars with 'strong' drivers at all, Both american series were not the best driver filled in the world, definatly not.

I will grant you that Bourdais did not gel in f1 - but it is also a pity that due to the rigidity of the system now in force, drivers cannot be interchanged.

I do wonder if the Force India would have suited him far better and how he would have faired at Monte Carlo and Spa.

[UltimateDanGTR]

I will grant you that Bourdais did not gel in f1 - but it is also a pity that due to the rigidity of the system now in force, drivers cannot be interchanged.

I do wonder if the Force India would have suited him far better and how he would have faired at Monte Carlo and Spa.

woah blimey this is an old argument dug up from last year!

but you have a point, maybe Bourdais would have got on better in a force india, but that is just another one of many many 'what ifs?' of Formula One.

[Mia 01]

Americans usually can´t drive a F1 car it seems. All thoose twists and corners. And besides, they all like to start on top.

But give us Monty back now please, you can take MS, that´s fine.

[D28]

Americans usually can´t drive a F1 car it seems. All thoose twists and corners. And besides, they all like to start on top.

Except for the 2 World Champions, and several others that between them have won 22 Grand Prix. It is worth noting that this is 2 more WC then Sweden's tally, and just about double the number of wins (12), 10 of these were won by one super talented Ronnie Peterson.

[Saint Devote]

Americans usually can´t drive a F1 car it seems. All thoose twists and corners. And besides, they all like to start on top.

But give us Monty back now please, you can take MS, that´s fine.

You have just touched the third rail of motor racing!

Do not confuse a lack of interest with lack of ability - if American interest ever focused on F1 there would be no lack of top drivers from the US.

Considering how the US has done based on not being too interested, they have done extremely well!

:eek: WOT A BLOOMIN' CHEEK!!! [to be read in a Michael Caine voice]

[jwhite9185]

Tarso Marques drove for Minardi and Penske in the late 90s'/early 00's. And Alex Yoong Drove for Minardi and DCR a couple of seasons later.

And technically Villeneuve didn't win the Indy 500 - he was the only driver to win the Indy 505 though!!

[Don Capps]

Americans usually can´t drive a F1 car it seems. All thoose twists and corners. And besides, they all like to start on top.

In 1959, excluding the round at Indianapolis and just off the top of my head, you had the following American drivers competing in the Euro-centric series for the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs: Phil Hill, Masten Gregory, Dan Gurney, and Harry Schell, with Rodger Ward and Bob Said making an apearance as well.

In addition, everyone seems to leave Masten Gregory off their lists of US/American drivers who drove in both the "Grand Prix" and "Indianapolis" series.

I would suggest that some get their hands upon a copy of Tim Considine's book on the American "Grand Prix" experience.

[Mark]

Americans usually can´t drive a F1 car it seems. All thoose twists and corners. And besides, they all like to start on top.

But give us Monty back now please, you can take MS, that´s fine.

Remember back in the 90's at least IndyCar/CART was mostly 'road' and street circuits, with only a handful of ovals.

[bblocker68]

Remember back in the 90's at least IndyCar/CART was mostly 'road' and street circuits, with only a handful of ovals.

You're probably thinking of the ChampCar era, which was 2003-2007. CART in the 2000's lost many oval's too. CART, in the early 90's before the split was half ovals, half road and street courses.

Would you guys include Ayrton Senna, since he tested a Penske at Phoenix in 1992(3?).

[Don Capps]

You're probably thinking of the ChampCar era, which was 2003-2007. CART in the 2000's lost many oval's too. CART, in the early 90's before the split was half ovals, half road and street courses.

Would you guys include Ayrton Senna, since he tested a Penske at Phoenix in 1992(3?).

From its first season in 1979, the CART series included events on road courses, the number varying from year to year, of course, but usually a significant portion of the events by the end of the Eighties.

It can be suggested that the test session by Senna da Silva would not qualify him for inclusion.

A World Champion missing from this listing is John Surtees who drove in the Rex May 300 at Riverside.

Lloyd Ruby is another missing from this listing as is Troy Ruttmann as well as Walt Hansgen.

[D-Type]

I believe Peter Collins, winner of 3 Grands Prix, drove a Ferrari sports car in an "Indycar" race in 1956 or '57. Does anyone know the details?

[NaBUru38]

As posted there is a long list of great and other drivers with F1 and Indy/CART experience. If we look at elite World Champions, I count 14 with some Indy 500 exposure, going back to the very beginnings of F1.

The exclusive club of WC and Indy 500 winners include
Jim Clark
Graham Hill
Mario Andretti
Emerson Fittipaldi
Jacques Villeneuve

World Champions who qualified and competed in the 500 are
Nigell Mansell
...


Americans usually can´t drive a F1 car it seems. All thoose twists and corners.

Only considering my era, the few IndyCar / CART drivers to have succeeded in F1 have been Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Pablo Montoya (Nigel Mansell barely qualifies as "my era"). All drove their best years for Williams. He could have called Dario Franchitti...

[Don Capps]

I believe Peter Collins, winner of 3 Grands Prix, drove a Ferrari sports car in an "Indycar" race in 1956 or '57. Does anyone know the details?

If he did, there seems to be no record of this based upon checking several sources. The only USAC events that Collins participated in were the Sebring 12-hour events that used that Club's sanction after the AAA withdrew.

[D28]

If he did, there seems to be no record of this based upon checking several sources. The only USAC events that Collins participated in were the Sebring 12-hour events that used that Club's sanction after the AAA withdrew.

I have found references to Peter Collins attempting to qualify his Sebring winning Ferrari in the March 1958 Trenton USAC openner. I checked it out and saw a USAC record for 58 which listed Collins at Trenton in March, in a Ferrari and listed as DNQ, with mechanical failure. Given the dates and other details this looks to be correct to my eyes. In any event, it certainly wasn't a successful attempt.

[D-Type]

It appears that the car was George Tilp's 4.1 litre Ferrari not the Sebring winning Testa Rossa. Collins set a time fast enough to qualify, but the car developed mechanical problems.
My source: Doug Nye quoting Fabulous Fifties by Dick Wallen

[D28]

It appears that the car was George Tilp's 4.1 litre Ferrari not the Sebring winning Testa Rossa. Collins set a time fast enough to qualify, but the car developed mechanical problems.
My source: Doug Nye quoting Fabulous Fifties by Dick Wallen

That sounds correct. The USAC records refer only to a Ferrari, not a model. I assume Collins was in the US for Sebring, and available to try his luck at Trenton. What is difficult to understand is USAC allowing a sportscar to compete with presumably open wheel cars. This was around the time of the Monza 2 Worlds races. The same record I saw lists, Moss and Bueb as rookies, and this is from the Monza event. At one of the Monza races, I believe D-Type Jaguars competed, with the Indy roadsters, so perhaps the mix was not so unusual. Very interesting stuff.

[Don Capps]

That sounds correct. The USAC records refer only to a Ferrari, not a model. I assume Collins was in the US for Sebring, and available to try his luck at Trenton. What is difficult to understand is USAC allowing a sportscar to compete with presumably open wheel cars. This was around the time of the Monza 2 Worlds races. The same record I saw lists, Moss and Bueb as rookies, and this is from the Monza event. At one of the Monza races, I believe D-Type Jaguars competed, with the Indy roadsters, so perhaps the mix was not so unusual. Very interesting stuff.

I have often wondered about all this given that Collins had been reported as having departed the long scene before race time. It seems quite a muddled effort all around, given that it is a bit uncertain from the information as generally made available as to whether the times he achieved were during the practice sessions or during the qualifying session. According to what I have found and reproduced below, it seems that the mechanical problem, apparently an oil leak, occurred during practice. Plus, a close reading of what Bob Schilling writes leads me to think that Collins most likely drove the car prior to the event, but perhaps not during the race weekend, certainly not making a qualifying effort. Therefore, I have a bit of trouble thinking that he actually "participated" in the event.


The car a assigned to England's Peter Collins developed an oil leak in practice and did not compete. "SUTTON TRIUMPHS," MotoRacing, April 4-11, 1958, p. 9.

Plus, there is the minor issue as to whether the event was on the calendar to allow the participation by international drivers, which was something of problem at that time, given that the ACCUS was not up and functioning at the moment and very few US events were on the open calendar.

[Don Capps]

What is difficult to understand is USAC allowing a sportscar to compete with presumably open wheel cars. This was around the time of the Monza 2 Worlds races. The same record I saw lists, Moss and Bueb as rookies, and this is from the Monza event. At one of the Monza races, I believe D-Type Jaguars competed, with the Indy roadsters, so perhaps the mix was not so unusual. Very interesting stuff.

The United States Auto Club was taking aim at the Sports Car Club of America in the 1958 timeframe, the USAC Road Racing Division being formed that Spring and holding its first championship that Fall. Having a sports car that otherwise would meet its Contest Rules compete in an event on the National Championship Trail would have been unusual, but not outside the rules as they were at that time. The D Type Jaguars did compete in the Monza "Race of Two Worlds" in 1957, but the ante got upped for the 1958 event. Interestingly enough, the race was scheduled for 1959, but got scrubbed for several reasons, mostly dealing with the financial issues.

I am still having difficulties thinking that Collin was an actual "participant" in the Trenton event, casting some doubt on the validity of the "DNQ" that Phil Harms credits him with for the race.

[MAX_THRUST]

Interesting how so many drivers from Indy car struggled when they went to F1.

When in CART they had equal machinery when they got to F1 they usually got a less than great car. I think that must have affected their moral, and never got comfortable with the equipment. DaMatta did ell for Toyota and could have done better had he staye on.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Interesting how so many drivers from Indy car struggled when they went to F1.

When in CART they had equal machinery when they got to F1 they usually got a less than great car. I think that must have affected their moral, and never got comfortable with the equipment. DaMatta did ell for Toyota and could have done better had he staye on.

I agree, I for one think Christiano was actually a good F1 driver who was the match of Panis at Toyota. I don't think he would ever have been anything particularly special, but he seemed decent enough.