golden boy

[winetowin]

Helio Castroneves should be disqualified and barred from racing in the IRL for the remaining races this year for purposefully turning into Paul Tracy in the Toronto Indy car race. He won’t be because he is their little golden boy, what a shame.

[BrentJackson]

PT has done enough ridiculous moves in his career that I think we ought to perhaps give a bit of leway to Helio.

[underpowered]

Helio Castroneves should be disqualified and barred from racing in the IRL for the remaining races this year for purposefully turning into Paul Tracy in the Toronto Indy car race. He won’t be because he is their little golden boy, what a shame.

Ha ha.....It was the best thing that could have happened...it will get so much air time and controversy.

Be honest, PT was always going to crash with someone.....Fortunatly it was with someone that people could hate. Imagine if it was Wilson....who do you get mad with then?

[The instant classic]

im from canada and gotta say, i could carless for the over hype overated Paul Tracy

[markabilly]

As long as both took each other out, fine with me, but i still feel a little sympathy for PT after PT was robbed of his win at Indy by the george bunch

[grungex]

PT has done enough ridiculous moves in his career that I think we ought to perhaps give a bit of leway to Helio.

Why? Does that make his blatant wrecking of PT today somehow OK? :rolleyes:

[methanolHuffer]

The tight parts of the track have a whole lot to with those tangles. Tag's little incident was more brazen. And Carpenter is so hopeless that he should be sent down to lights.

[FIAT1]

PT is what Indycar needs. NOT BORING.

[EagleEye]

Helio Castroneves should be disqualified and barred from racing in the IRL for the remaining races this year for purposefully turning into Paul Tracy in the Toronto Indy car race. He won’t be because he is their little golden boy, what a shame.

Spent quite a bit of time with Paul after the race, and he described it a racing incident. He was trying to get past HCN to run down Dario.

[BrentJackson]

Why? Does that make his blatant wrecking of PT today somehow OK? :rolleyes:

It looked to me like a racing accident, not a deliberate takeout. PT was pushing hard to get past Helio, and an accident resulted. Both PT and Helio seem to think it was a racing accident, so I'm inclined to leave it at that.

And I'd say that nobody should be talking about banning anybody unless the accident was ridiculously brazen - and that tangle wasn't.

[grungex]

But that's not what you said -- you wanted to base the decision on Paul's (completely unrelated) past actions.

[NickFalzone]

Found a clip of the incident. I still think Helio was at fault, but after watching it a few times I could see the possibility that he lost control. Still think that even so, he was fighting WAY too hard for a position he was going to lose soon anyway due to his extreme fuel strategy. PT would have had a 2nd and possibly fighting Dario for the win if this hadn't happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhmhd7TRAzo

[drewdawg727]

You wanna talk about banning someone from racing? I think you should be aiming your sights at car #5 before anyone else, the kid is too reckless.

[Marbles]

im from canada and gotta say, i could carless for the over hype overated Paul Tracy

Yup! Over rated by such no-talents as Zanardi and Montoya as the guy they liked!

The best thing about PT is that as he has matured he crashes much later in the race than he use to. Having watched PT since he was pudgy-cheeked and and four-eyed you never know what to expect... except excitement... and that's a good thing. He's the hot sauce on your chicken wings... "Suicide" no less.


Found a clip of the incident. I still think Helio was at fault, but after watching it a few times I could see the possibility that he lost control.


They bump though out the corner but then there is a moment of clarity after which it looks as if one of three things happen.

A) Something in the steering breaks on HCV's car.
B) HCN swerves a tad too much in an attempt to intimidate PT. (Like that's gonna work.)
C) HCN's deep seeded hate for Canadians and everything Canadian (including Maple syrup) comes to the fore and overtakes his good judgment which results in Penske having to shell out for extra security on the Brazilian's hotel room floor.

If you selected "C" please read below.

I'll be handing out free pitch forks and torches at the corner of Bloor and Yonge to the first 500 to show up.

[SarahFan]

as i said on the other thread...

helio was needed to conserve fule and tires....he was on a 38 lap stint to the finish...that was long even with a yellow....

it looked like he was giving paul then corner .... than decided against it

racing incident...

but considering the above... combined with Helio running for championship points vs Paul running for possibly his last career win in front of his home town crowd to boot i gott alay the blame on Helio...

and as i said in the race of the year and the matos/patrick incident....part of racing is being passed from time to time...

[garyshell]

Found a clip of the incident. I still think Helio was at fault, but after watching it a few times I could see the possibility that he lost control. Still think that even so, he was fighting WAY too hard for a position he was going to lose soon anyway due to his extreme fuel strategy. PT would have had a 2nd and possibly fighting Dario for the win if this hadn't happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhmhd7TRAzo


I agree, that was my take on this too. He knew he was being overtaken and CLEARLY gave Paul lots of room early on. Then somehow the dreaded red mist settled in and he decided to try to fight Paul for the corner. It doesn't make sense, first you concede the overtaking and THEN you try to fight it out. A really stupid move. I do NOT think there was an intentionally turn right by Helio, but I do think that the incident WAS avoidable.

Gary

[Chamoo]

Yea, I don't lay blame on anyone in this situation, but I think Helio should had been smarter. There was no real advantage to be gained by fighting for the spot, PT was going to get past him sooner or later.

I think when they touched wheels is when Helio's steering rack turned right from the friction, not that Helio turned into him on purpose.

Now if they had run side by side through those turns into the next short straight, it would had been a classic battle we would had looked back to at the end of the year as one of the most exciting battles of the year. However, they weren't able to pull it off. But that is what you get with PT, excitement.

[fugariracing]

You wanna talk about banning someone from racing? I think you should be aiming your sights at car #5 before anyone else, the kid is too reckless.

Bingo - Manic Mario has flashes of speed but way too many moments of sheer incompetence out on the track. Shame he's in KV's car full-time per his backing and PT isn't but that's how it goes.

I definitely saw it as a racing incident. If PT waits a lap, maybe the wreck doesn't happen. Or Helio backs off more knowing his tires are going off. Either way, very much needed entertainment for the race.

If anything, I found the relatively calm reaction by PT when in the past it would have been an eruption, indicative of a truly matured old man that can still drive the hell out of a race car. The "Thrill" was definitely back in this race and a shame that both he and Tag didn't finish better than they ran.

[elis]

Helio Castroneves should be disqualified and barred from racing in the IRL for the remaining races this year for purposefully turning into Paul Tracy in the Toronto Indy car race. He won’t be because he is their little golden boy, what a shame.

*raises an eyebrow* C'mon, get a grip. Anyone that thinks HCN purposefully drove into Tracy should be banned from being a race fan... yeah, see the absurdity.

The very fact that neither driver went ballistic at the other & both appeared a little humble would more than indicate that both felt it was a racing deal.

Seriously, what is hecks name would HCN have to gain from deliberately sideswipping another car at the very real risk of damaging his own? The over heard shots clearly show the reason for the sudden turn of the 3 car into PT's, it was as a direct result of the wheels banging as PT pulled up along side, rendering the 3 car at that point unstable & pulling into the PKV machine.

50-50, no more, no less.

Lets face it if either of those 2 have a long standing rep for wrecklessness it would be PT, but on this ocassion it would appear that both should shoulder any blame, but to a long time race fan who's seen plenty of these kind'a gigs.. it was simply a racing incident between 2 hard chargers.

Unforturtunate outcome non the less.

[SarahFan]

*raises an eyebrow* C'mon, get a grip. Anyone that thinks HCN purposefully drove into Tracy should be banned from being a race fan... yeah, see the absurdity.

The very fact that neither driver went ballistic at the other & both appeared a little humble would more than indicate that both felt it was a racing deal.

Seriously, what is hecks name would HCN have to gain from deliberately sideswipping another car at the very real risk of damaging his own? The over heard shots clearly show the reason for the sudden turn of the 3 car into PT's, it was as a direct result of the wheels banging as PT pulled up along side, rendering the 3 car at that point unstable & pulling into the PKV machine.

50-50, no more, no less.

Lets face it if either of those 2 have a long standing rep for wrecklessness it would be PT, but on this ocassion it would appear that both should shoulder any blame, but to a long time race fan who's seen plenty of these kind'a gigs.. it was simply a racing incident between 2 hard chargers.

Unforturtunate outcome non the less.

just curios...

did it look to you that Helio was conceding the corner... then at the last moment changed his mind?

[Hoop-98]

I am looking at it frame by frame as we speak. Helio is going straight and Paul is on a slightly outward away from the inside wall trajectory. Helio's front wheels are even with the first e in the Budweiser sign when they touch.

The wheels touch and it's all over.

http://i26.tinypic.com/sy2e7t.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/6e3ebn.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/24y4iac.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/m37v4.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/dy1umv.jpg








rh

[Hoop-98]

The next 3:

Pay attention to the white line on the track left of Helio, he is moving towards it. Look at the white line on the inside of the turn and Paul's trajectory.

http://i31.tinypic.com/2h4wyth.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/am6yya.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/29uzqth.jpg

rh

[garyshell]

just curios...

did it look to you that Helio was conceding the corner... then at the last moment changed his mind?


Abso-freakin'-loutely. It was a racing incident, no evil intent, but it was an AVOIDABLE racing incident. Helio's second thoughts were the issue.

Gary

[Hoop-98]

Abso-freakin'-loutely. It was a racing incident, no evil intent, but it was an AVOIDABLE racing incident. Helio's second thoughts were the issue.

Gary

What did he do, look above, he was going slightly left, Paul was going more left.


rh

[SarahFan]

What did he do, look above, he was going slightly left, Paul was going more left.


rh

I'm (we're) talking about the entrance to turn 3.....your screen grabs are entering turn 4 aren't they?

[garyshell]

The next 3:

Pay attention to the white line on the track left of Helio, he is moving towards it. Look at the white line on the inside of the turn and Paul's trajectory.

rh


Hoop, there is no question that the wheel contact jerked Helio's wheel to the right. I could see that in the front on replay.

But I do think it was odd that Helio obviously gave way at the end of the straight and even said so in the after incident interview, but then he chose to race Paul to the next corner precipitating the incident. Once he conceded the right hander, he should have dropped in line, there was no hope of a two wide pairing at the next left.

Gary

[EagleEye]

More arguing about nothing.

Ask PT himself, and he will tell you, and I quote "It was a racing incident".


Enough said.

At least, until the Zapruder footage appears showing The Captain on the grassy knoll, signalling the guy at the side of the track with the umbrella to engage the elctronic intlerlocking wheels mechanism....

[SarahFan]

More arguing about nothing.

Ask PT himself, and he will tell you, and I quote "It was a racing incident".


Enough said.

At least, until the Zapruder footage appears showing The Captain on the grassy knoll, signalling the guy at the side of the track with the umbrella to engage the elctronic intlerlocking wheels mechanism....


maybe we should go back to talking about 25/8..... or Tony george getting canned....

[Hoop-98]

I'm (we're) talking about the entrance to turn 3.....your screen grabs are entering turn 4 aren't they?

Yes where the contact that initiated the crash happened, I just replayed the entrance to 3 and saw no change on Helio's part.

Ya know, if you were sitting here next to me on the couch we'd probably see it different. I have played the whole thing about 10 times single stepping the frames. Was a racing incident, IMHO, pure and simple.

rh

[garyshell]

More arguing about nothing.

Ask PT himself, and he will tell you, and I quote "It was a racing incident".


Enough said.


Who is saying it was not? The debate, at least from me, is should Helio have tried to race to turn 4 after giving way at turn 4? And as Ken asked would you rather we were discussing the split again or the racing? I'll take the racing debates any day.

Gary

[garyshell]

Yes where the contact that initiated the crash happened, I just replayed the entrance to 3 and saw no change on Helio's part.

Ya know, if you were sitting here next to me on the couch we'd probably see it different. I have played the whole thing about 10 times single stepping the frames. Was a racing incident, IMHO, pure and simple.

rh


Don't you think it looks like Helio conceded turn 3 to Paul? He said he did in the after race interviews. Something along the lines of, I gave Paul plenty of room at the end of the straight. (My words, not his exact quote.) But given that, he should not have tried to squirt for turn four. Twas a case of the dreaded red mist, to me.

Gary

[TURN3]

What did he do, look above, he was going slightly left, Paul was going more left.


rh

First, your frames above clearly show Helio's left hand raising (turn right motion) before the contact so thank you for that proof.

Second, the "white" lines you are using for reference have no point of reference in this view. are they not entering the dog leg left?

Helio was off line, off pace, and was in no position to win the position. Stupid stupid stupid move for him to get on the gas and even be in that position.

I will say that after looking at slow motion replays from every angle, I'm less convinced it was on purpose and more convinced he was trying to control the car. He gassed it while the left side tires were off the racing groove and if his right side tires hooked up of course he'd go right. That still makes it his "fault". Racing fault, yes, but still his fault. Helio had EVERYTHING to lose in this case and there was NOTHING for him to gain.

He has more incidents like this than people want to admit (i.e. Dixon at Iowa). Incidently, PT put on his twitter site during that race in Iowa that if he were Dixon he'd punch Helio in the face. So I think the reaction we say from PT was more to the effect of what sponsors would think.

The conclusion of all this is that if the IRL weren't a buch of jokes, PT would've been past him when he slide of T1 the lap prior when Dario was the one that got by. My problem lies with the IRL more so than anything at this point. It sure seems like PT is a marked man, which is ridiculous, but seems that way sometimes.

The good...how much does this series need Paul Tracy at this point? Look, he makes racing exciting and there is something to talk about today. What else is anybody saying about the race that doesn't involve him?

[SarahFan]

Who is saying it was not? The debate, at least from me, is should Helio have tried to race to turn 4 after giving way at turn 4? And as Ken asked would you rather we were discussing the split again or the racing? I'll take the racing debates any day.

Gary

well... the ratings will be out in a little while..


*ken ducks and runs for cover

[SarahFan]

Yes where the contact that initiated the crash happened, I just replayed the entrance to 3 and saw no change on Helio's part.

Ya know, if you were sitting here next to me on the couch we'd probably see it different. I have played the whole thing about 10 times single stepping the frames. Was a racing incident, IMHO, pure and simple.

rh


i dont think anyone is denying it's a racing incident....

but just like Danica/matos at St pete... part of racing is being passed from time to time.....

Under the circumstances I'm very VERY suprised helio was that racy into 4 after Paul made the move into three is all...


on to Edmonton..... should be another racy and exciting weekend

[chuck34]

Perhaps Helio did give way in T3. Fully intending to let him on through. But then PT hit him on the way by (not really a big deal), and Helio's "red mist" level pegged at 11. So he hits the gas when his lefts are on the marbles. That starts his car to the left, he corrects to the right, PT is there, blam-o, we have a bit deal.

Sounds to me to be the very definition of a "racing deal". Both drivers have some fault (maybe 50/50) in the incident. So neither gets the blame.

*note, I don't really like either one, so I don't have a dog in the fight.

[NickFalzone]

My final thought on it is this. Helio was slowing on the straight to save fuel and then planned to used momentum to do a wide roll through T3. I don't think he was slowing at any point to give PT the spot. I don't know if the spotter was saying anything, but I don't think Helio even knew how close PT was, and was surprised at that first contact. The 2nd contact was going to be a friendly rub back at PT for bumping him but ended up with them both squeezed in the wall. Again, main point being that I don't think Helio ever planned for PT to get by on that corner. Basically, just bad driving by Helio IMO to save gas and not paying attention.

The video that I posted above, look at 3:39. Helio turned too hard into the corner and cut PT off, then going into T4 when PT is trying to finish his pass, Helio hits the throttle and certainly doesn't give PT any room.

[drewdawg727]

My final thought on it is this. Helio was slowing on the straight to save fuel and then planned to used momentum to do a wide roll through T3. I don't think he was slowing at any point to give PT the spot. I don't know if the spotter was saying anything, but I don't think Helio even knew how close PT was, and was surprised at that first contact. The 2nd contact was going to be a friendly rub back at PT for bumping him but ended up with them both squeezed in the wall. Again, main point being that I don't think Helio ever planned for PT to get by on that corner. Basically, just bad driving by Helio IMO to save gas and not paying attention.



Spotter? No spotters on RC's...

[PA Rick]

My impression is that Helio was saving fuel and gave PT some room. He decided at the last minute to contest the corner which caused the first contact. Both cars were able to contiuue. As the cars continued to the next corner Helio turned into PT which caused the second and final contact taking both cars out.
Paul's kept professional for a change because he wants to race as many races as possible this year.
If Paul is at Mid Ohio I may finally go to an IRL race. If he doesn't, I'll stay home.

[PA Rick]

Did Dario really get to go ahead of PT after making a pit stop under yellow? If so, are the officials idiots or is it just the idiotic rules?

[garyshell]

My final thought on it is this. Helio was slowing on the straight to save fuel and then planned to used momentum to do a wide roll through T3. I don't think he was slowing at any point to give PT the spot. I don't know if the spotter was saying anything, but I don't think Helio even knew how close PT was, and was surprised at that first contact. The 2nd contact was going to be a friendly rub back at PT for bumping him but ended up with them both squeezed in the wall. Again, main point being that I don't think Helio ever planned for PT to get by on that corner. Basically, just bad driving by Helio IMO to save gas and not paying attention.

The video that I posted above, look at 3:39. Helio turned too hard into the corner and cut PT off, then going into T4 when PT is trying to finish his pass, Helio hits the throttle and certainly doesn't give PT any room.

Listen to Helio's interview after the incident. He knew PT was there and said he thought he gave Paul plenty of room in three.

Gary

[garyshell]

Did Dario really get to go ahead of PT after making a pit stop under yellow? If so, are the officials idiots or is it just the idiotic rules?


Yes. Yes and yes.

Gary

[jimispeed]

Look at 3:29 and thereafter. Or, you can see it in realtime earlier.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhmhd7TRAzo&NR=1

From the front it looked like on the second incident, Helio got/was on the power and the momentum sent him plowing into PT! It's definately ugly.

And, the PT Franchitti thing? That sounds really sketchy!!

PT had a great weekend. There are some other youtube vids on the event of PT making some nice passes. Eight spots in the first lap!!!

Give the man a ride!!

[harvick#1]

wow, from the video, this was Helios fault, He knew PT was there and just drive into him, dont matter the racing line at all, Helio drove into him as there was plenty of room on the track to get around cleanly

[NickFalzone]

Helio's a good actor.

[grungex]

Helio's a good actor.

Actually he's not a very good actor at all. It was blatantly obvious from his face in the initial interview that he was getting ready to lie, and the first word out of his mouth was "honestly". Puhlease. He may not have deliberately drilled Paul into the wall, but he knew damn well he screwed up.

[garyshell]

He may not have deliberately drilled Paul into the wall, but he knew damn well he screwed up.

And he admitted that he did. I think that is the reason why PT was so civil with him afterward. There was no intent in what happened. Helio needs the points. He fessed up to his stupidity and PT was gracious in his acceptance of that.

I do think his only really mistake was in not pulling in line once he knew PT was alongside. From the single frame shots hoop posted you can see the front edge of PT's left wheel touch the back edge of Helio's right wheel. That is guaranteed to pull the wheel right out of any drivers hands and throw the car to the right.


Gary

[Chamoo]

PT played the critically correct card in hopes of wooing sponsors, not because he was gracious in his acceptance of Helio's admittance of screwing up. If PT was under a full year contract, or already had something signed for next year, sparks would had flown, and it would had been awesome for the series.