Is Seabass really done?

[woody2goody]

Is it set in stone that Jaime Alguesuari is going to be racing in Hungary?

There was no fire in Bourdais today, you could see that he was giving up.

[ClarkFan]

Is it set in stone that Jaime Alguesuari is going to be racing in Hungary?

There was no fire in Bourdais today, you could see that he was giving up.
I am not sure that getting fired from STR constitutes a penalty. Getting free of Berger should have some value, at least.

ClarkFan

[Colin_Harvey]

Yet another "champion" from CART/Champcar/Indycar falls by the wayside...

Still as Martin Brundle once said when commentating on a typically poor qualifying attempt by Tarso Marques during the 2001 season when Marques regularly failed to qualify:

"Marques would be a front-runner in any other series in the world, such is the difference in quality between F1 and everything else"

[Nikki Katz]

Nothing's confirmed yet, but I'd be surprised to see him back. Piquet has probably done enough to keep his seat for at least one more race, but Bourdais has been awful all weekend.

It's a shame, he seemed to get on well with the first Toro Rosso he was in, but past that he didn't seem able to adapt to changes to the car.

I'm still unsure about Alguesuari, he's miles too inexperienced. I don't think he'll be a permanent replacement, even if he is in the car for the next few races.

[ioan]

I am not sure that getting fired from STR constitutes a penalty. Getting free of Berger should have some value, at least.

ClarkFan

Bashing the wrong guy, eh?
Berger sold his hare in STR last season and he is not there anymore. :p :

[Robinho]

i like Bourdais, and i thought he would do better this year after a couple of quite impressive runs but a mostly disappointing year last season.

however this year he's not done anything special, although the car doesn't seem up to much. I hope TR get the new bits from Red Bull and the car improves, and if they do Bourdais gets the chance to prove himself one last time, but time is running out, i hope he gets to the end of the year, its not like the team is pushing for points or anything so i doubt anyone else would do much better, but unless there is a marked improvement by the end of the year he'll definately be out.

[ioan]

i hope he gets to the end of the year, its not like the team is pushing for points or anything so i doubt anyone else would do much better

That's exactly why they will put a promising rookie into that seat in order to get him ready for next season!
Who cares if the driver coming last is a rookie or someone with an overinflated ego? :)

[Lennat]

He hasn't impressed to much during his 1 ½ season really, so it makes sense to try someone else. And I'm not that suprised really, sure he won 4 Champ Car titles, but that was in the propably best car and in the twilight years of the series when most of the top teams had left for the IRL anyway... I would actually like see what he could do in the IRL if he went back to the states.

[Placid]

He hasn't impressed to much during his 1 ½ season really, so it makes sense to try someone else. And I'm not that suprised really, sure he won 4 Champ Car titles, but that was in the propably best car and in the twilight years of the series when most of the top teams had left for the IRL anyway... I would actually like see what he could do in the IRL if he went back to the states.

I wonder if USF1 would have their way and get Bourdais a seat along
with Speed.

[markabilly]

In this day of hi tech, it is hard to say a driver is not capable, if the car does not fit his style.

odd how the two teams have almost identical cars, yet the team with what many think (including webber) that has the superior power plant, is the one running consistently way behind

[Saint Devote]

I wonder if USF1 would have their way and get Bourdais a seat along
with Speed.

I think that it would be ridiculous to change drivers at this stage especially putting someone that has barely driven an f1 car. The cars are too complex these days.

US F1 supposedly wants to run American drivers.

There are none at this stage that is f1 worthy. And why would US F1 take on Bourdais? It would not make sense.

I think the possibility is that given the friendship between Barrichello and Windsor, and that it is unlikely the Brazilian will be in a Brawn in 2010, I think Rubens could well be the lead driver in the US F1 team.

If Bourdais is out at Toro Rosso then he will be out of f1. LMS and DTM beckons.

[woody2goody]

In this day of hi tech, it is hard to say a driver is not capable, if the car does not fit his style.

odd how the two teams have almost identical cars, yet the team with what many think (including webber) that has the superior power plant, is the one running consistently way behind

Well RBR must be holding STR back somewhat, as STR haven't had the update on their car for the last two races. That would bring them three quarters of a second a lap probably.

Bourdais has had a couple of good races this year, and has scored two points to Buemi's three, but he hasn't really done anything for two or three races now.

The Nurburgring is a great track, but not the most testing for the driver. You'd think someone like Bourdais could do better there. it's not as if he's never driven there before...

[ClarkFan]

Bashing the wrong guy, eh?
Berger sold his hare in STR last season and he is not there anymore. :p :
Oops. :s

It is true that when Mateschitz decided funding two F1 teams was too much, STR definitely started getting an even shorter end of the stick. Wouldn't be surprised to see him sell it off to someone like Richards this offseason.

ClarkFan

[Roamy]

Yet another "champion" from CART/Champcar/Indycar falls by the wayside...

Still as Martin Brundle once said when commentating on a typically poor qualifying attempt by Tarso Marques during the 2001 season when Marques regularly failed to qualify:

"Marques would be a front-runner in any other series in the world, such is the difference in quality between F1 and everything else"

So why are you singling out CART? There are many other series Champions that have not made it in F1 also

[ioan]

Oops. :s

It is true that when Mateschitz decided funding two F1 teams was too much, STR definitely started getting an even shorter end of the stick. Wouldn't be surprised to see him sell it off to someone like Richards this offseason.

ClarkFan

The STR team has been for sale since Berger moved out. ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Bourdais took a risk by joining Toro Rosso. He had a very successful career in the States, one which was likely to continue had he stayed but F1 was something he wanted (needed) to do.

He wasn't a 'team Red Bull' driver, and the likes of Vettel, Buemi and now Alguesuari, were always likely to be ahead of him in the pecking order, particularly at Toro Rosso which is the Red Bull driver development team.

If, like Villeneuve, he had stepped into a competitve team with a chance of podiums and race wins right away then I think we would have seen more of the driver that he can be, but rather like Andretti at McLaren, Toro Rosso wasn't the right time or place for Bourdais.

Still, he tried. Perhaps he'll find himself back in Indycar where I'm sure he'll be competitive once again.

[seb_sh]

It's hard to say what will happen to him, all rumors have him out but no official word from the team yet.

He definitely won't be at Torro Rosso next year and if he wants to stay in F1 he'll have to take a seat on one of the new teams (if they do indeed join) or he could go to endurance racing. I doubt he'll go to Indycar.

[ioan]

Bourdais took a risk by joining Toro Rosso. He had a very successful career in the States, one which was likely to continue had he stayed but F1 was something he wanted (needed) to do.

He wasn't a 'team Red Bull' driver, and the likes of Vettel, Buemi and now Alguesuari, were always likely to be ahead of him in the pecking order, particularly at Toro Rosso which is the Red Bull driver development team.

If, like Villeneuve, he had stepped into a competitve team with a chance of podiums and race wins right away then I think we would have seen more of the driver that he can be, but rather like Andretti at McLaren, Toro Rosso wasn't the right time or place for Bourdais.

Still, he tried. Perhaps he'll find himself back in Indycar where I'm sure he'll be competitive once again.

It's easy to put it down to being in a small team and all the rest, but that doesn't change the fact that he was not up to the game against TWO rookie team mates, in a car that last season won a race!

Believe me if you put him in a Ferrari last season either of Felipe or Kimi would have blown him out of the water, same thing would have happened at McLaren or BMW. He's just no F1 material and that's also why he never got a F1 seat before STR hired him for a publicity stunt. Sure he's a good driver, but not good enough in this class.

[I am evil Homer]

I liked him as a person...always came as across as intelligent and a genuine love of motorsports. However, for whatever reason he's really not clicked in F1 - not that I think Buemi is any better really!

In theory he should have done okay...the STR last year was a decent car and coming from Indycar with no TC etc he should have done okay. Maybe his problem was providing engineers with the feedback needed to adjust the car to his liking?

Either way he wasn't really up to the challenge of F1 but I hope he continues to do well with Peugeot in LMS and gets another crack at racing in America. Good luck to him.

[Ranger]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76945

JA is in, it seems.

[ArrowsFA1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76945

JA is in, it seems.
Thought this was interesting:

Despite Alguersuari's promotion to the race seat, Sebastien Loeb remains linked with a switch to F1 with Toro Rosso once his commitments in the world rally championship are finished this season.

[christophulus]

The telling thing in that article is that Repsol are sponsoring Alguersuari, so money must be a factor in this decision.

I'm still amazed that no one has bought STR from Red Bull yet, especially someone like Prodrive or Lola who missed out on an entry. Maybe they're waiting to see if Manor can turn up next year.

[Ranger]

Thought this was interesting:

I thought that stuff was just f1-live.com dribble.

The fact that it has made it onto Autosport makes it rather interesting, maybe it will happen, still most probably won't though.

[Lennat]

It's easy to put it down to being in a small team and all the rest, but that doesn't change the fact that he was not up to the game against TWO rookie team mates, in a car that last season won a race!

Believe me if you put him in a Ferrari last season either of Felipe or Kimi would have blown him out of the water, same thing would have happened at McLaren or BMW. He's just no F1 material and that's also why he never got a F1 seat before STR hired him for a publicity stunt. Sure he's a good driver, but not good enough in this class.

Exactly!

[Roamy]

He should have made it this year if he was going to. In the no TC car he should have kicked his teammates ass. Don't count on him returning to the front if he returns to Indy.

[Sonic]

Sad to see him go. Nice chap. But being a nice bloke won't keep you in the team - it was obvious that he and the pit wall engineers knew it was over by the way they embraced after his retirement.

[DexDexter]

Sad to see him go. Nice chap. But being a nice bloke won't keep you in the team - it was obvious that he and the pit wall engineers knew it was over by the way they embraced after his retirement.

Is he a nice guy, I thought the Americans considered him arrogant when he was in CART? Then again, maybe he just didn't like burgers or something...

[Sonic]

Is he a nice guy, I thought the Americans considered him arrogant when he was in CART?

Isn't that just what all Yanks think of the French?

[maximilian]

Given the inexperience, complete lack of behind-the-wheel testing time, and general apparent mediocrity of Bourdais' replacement, I would be VERY surprised to see him anywhere higher than P20. I am not sure what ToroRosso's aim is by putting this kid in the cockpit (other than breaking the Thackwell record), I can't imagine building up a driver is SO important that they'll accept an automatic last place. Putting a previously experienced driver, or even a marketing token (like Loeb, Rossi or Villeneuve) into the car would have made more sense to me - at least that would get some media attention and sponsorship exposure...

I'll eat my words if JA ends up going faster than Buemi, but I really don't see it happen.

How stupid does Hartley feel now about quitting the reserve driver job?

[Tazio]

Isn't that just what all Yanks think of the French?No! Just the ones that believe everything they're told! :down:

[Roamy]

you probably treat countrymen the same way they treat you when you go to their country. Lucky me I have only been to the airport so I can make a call.
But so far I like all the places I have been while visiting TIRE. I do poke jokes at the Frogs because its just our nature!! But all the French people I have met at the Spanish GP and Montreal GP including Prost have been very nice. Actually Damon Hill was a bit of a prix but probably cuz I was wearing my JV hat. But Seabass could give a hoot what we think because he took several million out of here. Plus I would assume he will be back.

[Colin_Harvey]

But Seabass could give a hoot what we think because he took several million out of here.

Don't you mean couldn't give a hoot??

[Saint Devote]

Is he a nice guy, I thought the Americans considered him arrogant when he was in CART? Then again, maybe he just didn't like burgers or something...

I never heard that the entire time he was in the US.

But that is the past - Bourdais ought to be a sought after driver by a new team and if not then a DTM team should sign him.

Toro Rosso is something of the kiss of death for a driver. It is a fickle team that does not work with its drivers. Soemthing like the number 2 seat at Lotus used to be.

Franz Tosdt the co-owner is the reincarnation of Gunter Schmitt in his actions. Neither Buemi or Alguesari ought to feel comfortable - although of course if the Spaniard is a paying driver via Repsol he will be safe.

At notime at all did TR try and work with Bourdais. They gave him the car and that was it. And Buemi is not exactly that much better and races especially lately is no better.

At Monte Carlo Bourdais had a fine race reaching the points. To me it says a lot of good about him.

In reality I think Bourdais is well rid of such a team and I do hope one of the new teams take him on.

[Saint Devote]

Bourdais should not return to the US. His home and family is in Europe and he has done and won many times.

For a good racing future he must stay in Europe - and I think that he will.

Also - his wife did not enjoy living in the US so it is unlikely they will return especially with a baby daughter now. The education system in the US is not good and the kind of upbringing social influences that would result make the US no choice at all. Monte Carlo or Switzerland is far better.

[Valve Bounce]

Youngest F1 driver in history. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76945

[Sonic]

Back in the day a super licence was hard to acquire. I seem to recall Kimi being put on probabtion for the first few races and also Oliver Gavin was due to be drafted into the pacific squad in '95 I think but was refused a super due to lack of mileage in F1 machinery.

Has this lad even turned a wheel in anger in the RBR?

[Mark]

Yet another "champion" from CART/Champcar/Indycar falls by the wayside...

Still as Martin Brundle once said when commentating on a typically poor qualifying attempt by Tarso Marques during the 2001 season when Marques regularly failed to qualify:

"Marques would be a front-runner in any other series in the world, such is the difference in quality between F1 and everything else"

That's true. However I think it's not just the driver skill level but the cars themselves are so different from any other racing category, including IndyCar, that sucess in the lower fomulae can be no guarantee that sucess will follow in Formula 1.

How many drivers have we seen come through the ranks proported to be the next Senna or the next Schumacher only to find they are decidedly average when they get to Formula 1.

[Sonic]

That's true. However I think it's not just the driver skill level but the cars themselves are so different from any other racing category, including IndyCar, that sucess in the lower fomulae can be no guarantee that sucess will follow in Formula 1.

How many drivers have we seen come through the ranks proported to be the next Senna or the next Schumacher only to find they are decidedly average when they get to Formula 1.

Indeed. And how many drivers have come in without a great history and done well? There is almost no way to predict who is going to do well.

[Ranger]

Back in the day a super licence was hard to acquire. I seem to recall Kimi being put on probabtion for the first few races and also Oliver Gavin was due to be drafted into the pacific squad in '95 I think but was refused a super due to lack of mileage in F1 machinery.

Has this lad even turned a wheel in anger in the RBR?

A street demonstration at Algarve and a straight line test at Barcelona. That's it.

[Sonic]

So JA to win then? ;)

[Ranger]

So JA to win then? ;)

I'd be surprised if he does well, because Raikkonen, Hamilton, Rosberg and Vettel all had at least all of an off-season of testing before their debuts under relatively similar circumstances. I don't know how much Alonso did but I know he didn't do a lot.

Another thing: Alguersuari is being beaten quite soundly this year by his own team-mate in WSR. Funny what money can do! ;)

[ioan]

Another thing: Alguersuari is being beaten quite soundly this year by his own team-mate in WSR. Funny what money can do! ;)

And another thing, he was British F3 champion last year, I suppose he didn't buy the title though! :rolleyes:

[Ranger]

And another thing, he was British F3 champion last year, I suppose he didn't buy the title though! :rolleyes:

I didn't deny that nor the fact that his team-mate who is beating him in WSR was his team-mate in British F3. It is a fantastic achievement.

Nonetheless, THIS YEAR, he has been underwhelming.

Don't you find it a little curious that right before he graduates to F1, he is being beaten in race position and points by his own team-mate?

[Sonic]

Hartley is having a bit of a stinker of a season too. So Torro Rosso do't exactly have a huge choice on offer. Begs the question why they are swapping one driver who lives at the back for another?

[I am evil Homer]

Change for changes sake....the car is pretty mediocore - or being held back by RB Technology - so it doesn't matter who's driving it right now.

[ioan]

I didn't deny that nor the fact that his team-mate who is beating him in WSR was his team-mate in British F3. It is a fantastic achievement.

Nonetheless, THIS YEAR, he has been underwhelming.

Don't you find it a little curious that right before he graduates to F1, he is being beaten in race position and points by his own team-mate?

Maybe he's concentrating on getting his first F1 drive more than on tooling around in formula whatever.

[ClarkFan]

Is he a nice guy, I thought the Americans considered him arrogant when he was in CART? Then again, maybe he just didn't like burgers or something...
Mostly that was just a staged rivalry with Paul Tracy, and may have even been done to play off of "Talledega Nights." ChampCar was pretty desperate for any kind of coverage at the time as the series was imploding. A "rivalry" between two drivers that got a few lines of ink would get the series way more coverage than it was receiving.

ClarkFAn

[ShiftingGears]

Mostly that was just a staged rivalry with Paul Tracy, and may have even been done to play off of "Talledega Nights." ChampCar was pretty desperate for any kind of coverage at the time as the series was imploding. A "rivalry" between two drivers that got a few lines of ink would get the series way more coverage than it was receiving.

ClarkFAn

Yep. If it weren't for Paul Tracy driving like a moron and Katherine Legge somersaulting into the crash barrier at Road America, the only coverage it would've got would've been at the Indy 300.
Abroad, you can probably take the Indy 300 out of the picture.

[veeten]

as far as I'm concerned, they (Torro Rosso) need to beat sister-team Red Bull to the punch and get that overpriced lump of an engine out of their chassis and put one in that they can work with.

Then , they can consider new drivers...

[ioan]

as far as I'm concerned, they (Torro Rosso) need to beat sister-team Red Bull to the punch and get that overpriced lump of an engine out of their chassis and put one in that they can work with.

Then , they can consider new drivers...

looks to me that the overpriced lump is good enough to win 2 WCC in a row, won STR a race last season, and is putting a Ferrari driver on the podium 2nd time this season. :rolleyes:

[Sonic]

looks to me that the overpriced lump is good enough to win 2 WCC in a row, won STR a race last season, and is putting a Ferrari driver on the podium 2nd time this season. :rolleyes:

Fact. The renault is accepted to be the weaker engine.

[gloomyDAY]

Fact. The renault is accepted to be the weaker engine.Yes, this is why Red Bull keeps getting jumped at the start.

[veeten]

looks to me that the overpriced lump is good enough to win 2 WCC in a row,...
Sure, when it's the parent company using it (Ferrari), but when others use it it's quite the different story.


... won STR a race last season,...
Yeah,.. one race, under wet conditions, and with a driver more capable of doing so under said conditions (see earlier and previous races). Then one takes a look at all other races during same period and their placements at the finish. Says an awful lot, eh?


... and is putting a Ferrari driver on the podium 2nd time this season. :rolleyes:

meanwhile, said same engine/powertrain has contributed to TR being at the back of the grid for every race, not to mention not very good in the results. All this with the very same chassis that RBR has, and has been at the front of the grid and on the podium.

Coincidence?... don't think so.

[Sonic]

The renaults one big advantage is better packaging. This means Newey's shrink wrapping at the rear (designed with the renault in mind no doubt) has had to be compromised to fit the Ferarri engine. I would bet my life savings that if you took the engine from seabass' car and dropped it into Massa's it would have still powered the car home to P3.

[ioan]

Sure, when it's the parent company using it (Ferrari), but when others use it it's quite the different story.


Maybe you missed the FACT that there is an engine development freeze and each company only has one engine homologated by the FIA.

STR aren't getting the chassis upgrades from RedBull that's their problem.
The Ferrari engine is second to none.

[ioan]

The renaults one big advantage is better packaging. This means Newey's shrink wrapping at the rear (designed with the renault in mind no doubt) has had to be compromised to fit the Ferarri engine. I would bet my life savings that if you took the engine from seabass' car and dropped it into Massa's it would have still powered the car home to P3.

Exactly. But this means nothing when we get to gratuitous Ferrari bashing.

[ioan]

Who's bashing Ferrari?? :confused:

Forgot your kool aid?!

[ioan]

Good side step.... ;)

Well actually you should read the thread carefully and you'll see you missed some important points. It's just an honest advice.

[jens]

Like I have written in another thread, Bourdais is pretty much a "100%" driver. STR wasn't a perfect team for him - and French Seb tends to struggle to drive around problems and impress in non-perfect conditions. But Franz Tost hasn't ever seemed a competent team boss either, if we recall his behaviour and attitude towards drivers. If a driver appears to struggle for whatever reason, then instead of getting support to try to overcome troubles, they get blamed. I don't see inside a team, but I guess STR may have the worst environment for drivers (well, except for supreme talents like Vettel).

Speed, Liuzzi, Bourdais, and counting... Buemi, Alguersuari and others - watch out, if you happen to struggle, you won't have an easy time. And RBR has loads of youngsters waiting on the wings, who are ready to get thrown in if someone already in F1 fails to impress straightaway. I guess this is exactly the problem of RBR's young driver programme - they have "too many drivers", who they would like to test in F1, and hence they send unprepared youngsters into F1 and if they initially struggle due to their inexperience, they get blamed, thrown out and their careers are ruined.


Fact. The renault is accepted to be the weaker engine.

Are you sure? Renault was allowed to upgrade their engine during the winter to get to the level of other engines.

[Sonic]

Fact DUDE!

[jens]

Fact DUDE!

Show the fact please. :p :

[veeten]

The Ferrari engine is second to none.

actually, more like 4th this season, but what the hey... :p :

[CNR]

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/37188/f1-ferrari-to-abandon-%E2%80%9909-car-toro-rosso-set-to-hand-alguersuari-debut/


The team has lined up Spanish teenager Jamie Alguersuari as a replacement, only weeks after he was elevated to reserve driver status ahead of Brendon Hartley, making him the youngest ever driver to race in Formula One.
Alguersuari is a product of the Red Bull young driver program, and won the British Formula 3 Championship last season

An agreement to bring Alguersuari on board despite his lack of experience behind the wheel of an F1 car as a result of the in-season testing ban was reportedly accelerated by the involvement of Spanish company Repsol, which will provide free fuel to both Red Bull-owned outfits.

[Sonic]

Show the fact please. :p :

erm, yeah I had it right here........hang on.......oh yeah. Just remembered my dog ate it! ;) :D

[Garry Walker]

The Ferrari engine is second to none. I dont think that is the case anymore.
Ferrari engine is very fuel thirsty compared to some other engines there (something that will hurt us next season even more) and I dont think it has any power advantage over an engine like Mercedes for example.

[Sonic]

I may be wrong but isn't the toyboata the most thirsty engine on the grid? It never seems to get as far as the fuel load suggests. Especially in the hands of the works team.

So Ferarri isn't even the best at being the worst at something? :p

[ioan]

actually, more like 4th this season, but what the hey... :p :

Based on what?!
And actually is as good as last season since only Renault were alowed to tweak theirs during the winter and their is still not fastest.

The Mercedes is said to be drivable than the Ferrari but that's all.

[ioan]

I dont think that is the case anymore.
Ferrari engine is very fuel thirsty compared to some other engines there (something that will hurt us next season even more) and I dont think it has any power advantage over an engine like Mercedes for example.

Thirstier? Based on what?

Just because Kimi had to stop earlier, than calculated based on the car's overal weight, on a couple of occasions at the beginning of the season doesn't mean the engine is thirstier.
Kimi's car is said to have been a bit overweight due to his weight and KERS weight and not being willing to make a compromise on chassis balance.
Since he's got the new lightweight chassis that hasn't been the case anymore.

Also drivers sometimes stop a couple laps earlier based on the right window in terms of track position after pit stop, like getting n clean air rather than someone's gearbox, or because the tires are gone and so many other reasons.

I doubt the engine that was one of the top 2 engines last season and enabled the Ferrari to be fastest in most speed traps, is suddenly a bad one this season with not changes done.

Also power is not everything for an engine unless you are about to try to beat the speed record over thousand kilometers or something like that.
The torque levels and it's delivery are more important. Even the stiffness of the engine and it's vibration characteristics are having a bigger influence on the cars performance than top end power. But I doubt that they are definitely shorter on power than any of the other engines.

[Roamy]

Is Seabass done????
Is a six pound Robin fat?????

[ArrowsFA1]

Scuderia Toro Rosso has officially confirmed that Sebastien Bourdais will leave the team with immediate effect and will not be racing at the Hungarian Grand Prix next week.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76988

[gloomyDAY]

French toast!

[Roamy]

French toast!
:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

froget him !!

[markabilly]

:rotflmao: froget him !!

from
:bounce: to this :hot:

and now this

http://pic.photobucket.com/spacer.gif
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r16/exigeken/Angouleme/frog.jpg

[driveace]

YES!

[christophulus]

Perhaps a little harsh, given that the huge update is due at the next GP and he won't get a chance to prove himself. Then again he's had ample time to make his mark and in this sport you don't get second chances..

[ykiki]

My only regret with Bourdais is that we didn't get to see him race against Vettel in Monza where they qualified P1/P2. IIRC the electronics crapped out on the starting grid.

[Lemmy-Boy]

Good decision by STR. Seabass was given more than enough chances to excel in F1. Despite the 2nd rate package by Red Bull, he still wasn't able to outperform his rookie teammate. Frenchy would still have a seat in F1 if laid some whoop-ass on his teamate or at least scored more points.

[Lemmy-Boy]

Yet another "champion" from CART/Champcar/Indycar falls by the wayside...

Still as Martin Brundle once said when commentating on a typically poor qualifying attempt by Tarso Marques during the 2001 season when Marques regularly failed to qualify:

"Marques would be a front-runner in any other series in the world, such is the difference in quality between F1 and everything else"

More F1 Eurocentrism shoved down our asses by a ex-F1 driver and glorified commentator.

To win in any motorsport series, the driver needs to have a formidable car package. I can name countless ex-F1 drivers who tried CART, IRL & failed to impress.

Last year and earlier this year, Jenson Button was labeled as a has-been who's time in F1 has passed. Given the early 2009 dominance of BRAWN GP, Button is now once again the UK's OVER-HYPED glory-boy. Even Brundle is getting on his knees to worship Jenson's so-called superior skill.

Give me a break....http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[call_me_andrew]

Frenchy would still have a seat in F1 if laid some whoop-ass on his teamate or at least scored more points.

Scored more points? Buemi only scored one more point than Bourdais, and in the four races where both drivers finished, Buemi only beat Bourdais twice. Bourdais only had one more DNF than Buemi.

They were evenly matched.

[CNR]

Scored more points? Buemi only scored one more point than Bourdais, and in the four races where both drivers finished, Buemi only beat Bourdais twice. Bourdais only had one more DNF than Buemi.

They were evenly matched.


Sebastian Vettel (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/822.html) 35 points
Sebastien Bourdais (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/834.html) 4 points

2009
Sebastien Buemi (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2009/842.html) 3 points
Sebastien Bourdais (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/834.html) 2 points

Sebastian Vettel (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/822.html) did 6 points in 2007 (1 for bmw)
i hope that they get back to being a young driver development team

[gloomyDAY]

My only regret with Bourdais is that we didn't get to see him race against Vettel in Monza where they qualified P1/P2. IIRC the electronics crapped out on the starting grid.Bourdais qualified in P4.

Still wouldn't have had a shot at Vettel. Kid took it from start to finish.

[call_me_andrew]

I was comparing him to Buemi, not Vettel. Everyone looks like crap compared to Vettel.

[Ranger]

I was comparing him to Buemi, not Vettel. Everyone looks like crap compared to Vettel.

...is that so?

[Valve Bounce]

Bordais has his lawyers looking at his sacking: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77001

I see Markabilly has already beaten me to the "punch" :(

Personally, if STR is going to introduce an update package to make the car faster, I just wonder why they would sack Sebass at this stage and replace him with another driver who will probably be just as inept as Buemi. :confused:

[Roamy]

I was comparing him to Buemi, not Vettel. Everyone looks like crap compared to Vettel.

Webber may want to argue this point

[Oli_M]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this, as it kinda follows on.......

Who's going to replace Bourdais now?

Obviously the favourite is Alguersuari, but as yet no name has been announced. Do we still think it is him? What other options do the Red Bull program provide? Or might they look outside their driver school?

[Colin_Harvey]

More F1 Eurocentrism shoved down our asses by a ex-F1 driver and glorified commentator.

To win in any motorsport series, the driver needs to have a formidable car package.

The first thing you need to do in F1 is beat your team mate, regardless of how formidable the car package is. Bourdais clearly couldn't do that.


I can name countless ex-F1 drivers who tried CART, IRL & failed to impress.

Well, considering with Bourdais (and not to mention with Andretti and Zanardi) we're talking about series champions who could not cut it in F1, I'd be amazed if you could even name three top F1 drivers who failed to impress in CART, IRL or whatever you wanna call it.

[ClarkFan]

Bordais has his lawyers looking at his sacking: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77001

I see Markabilly has already beaten me to the "punch" :(

Personally, if STR is going to introduce an update package to make the car faster, I just wonder why they would sack Sebass at this stage and replace him with another driver who will probably be just as inept as Buemi. :confused:
Because the team is imploding?

This could be the key to a grid spot for ProDrive or Lola.

ClarkFan

[PA Rick]

Yet another "champion" from CART/Champcar/Indycar falls by the wayside...

Still as Martin Brundle once said when commentating on a typically poor qualifying attempt by Tarso Marques during the 2001 season when Marques regularly failed to qualify:

"Marques would be a front-runner in any other series in the world, such is the difference in quality between F1 and everything else"

And the rest is history... Tarso went on to dominate CART and win seven CART titles. Oops, I meant he ran 27 races in CART finishing as high as seventh once.

There are not many world class drivers and most, but not all are in F1. And not all F1 drivers are world class.

[maximilian]

As much as I liked the idea of Bourdais coming to F1 and possibly doing well there, it's hard to ignore that rookie Buemi outqualified him 5-up this season, and it just doesn't bode well for some one who is supposed to be the experienced team leader.

I do find it rather cruel to replace him just before the package update, which probably may have improved his results, but it still can't change the fact that Buemi has generally outpaced him so far.

I also think it would be extremely poor policy to put JA (I don't even wanna try to spell the name) in the car for a miserly alleged 2 million sponsor pay - I would have thought RedBull sponsorship doesn't make pay for play rides necessary, but perhaps they are really focusing the cash flow on the winning team for now.

I'll really eat my words if he gets anywhere near Buemi. Problem is, with the new package, he may actually get off P20, and people might say "Hey, he's doing better than Seb!" :p

As for Bourdais, I would like to see him get a ride in the IRL for a few races this season, and fulltime again in 2010. Despite the DaMatta-esque F1 outing, his name would add some much needed "star" power to the grid there. Would be a shame if after this stint his name just disappears from OWR.

[Chamoo]

As much as I liked the idea of Bourdais coming to F1 and possibly doing well there, it's hard to ignore that rookie Buemi outqualified him 5-up this season, and it just doesn't bode well for some one who is supposed to be the experienced team leader.

I do find it rather cruel to replace him just before the package update, which probably may have improved his results, but it still can't change the fact that Buemi has generally outpaced him so far.

I also think it would be extremely poor policy to put JA (I don't even wanna try to spell the name) in the car for a miserly alleged 2 million sponsor pay - I would have thought RedBull sponsorship doesn't make pay for play rides necessary, but perhaps they are really focusing the cash flow on the winning team for now.

I'll really eat my words if he gets anywhere near Buemi. Problem is, with the new package, he may actually get off P20, and people might say "Hey, he's doing better than Seb!" :p

As for Bourdais, I would like to see him get a ride in the IRL for a few races this season, and fulltime again in 2010. Despite the DaMatta-esque F1 outing, his name would add some much needed "star" power to the grid there. Would be a shame if after this stint his name just disappears from OWR.

I'd love to see Bourdais running in the IRL in 2010. I doubt you'll see him run any races this year. NHL doesn't have the money to run him in any races. They are concentrating their money on Graham Rahal for 2009, and will probably spend a bunch of money to find Bourdais sponsorship for 2010.

There is also a good possibility Bourdais just finds a ride in the Le Mans series in Europe. His wife enjoys living in Europe more then the States, but he still owns a house in Florida, so it is possibility.

[maximilian]

I'd love to see Bourdais running in the IRL in 2010. I doubt you'll see him run any races this year. NHL doesn't have the money to run him in any races. They are concentrating their money on Graham Rahal for 2009, and will probably spend a bunch of money to find Bourdais sponsorship for 2010.
Very true, finding sponsorship isn't a picnic these days, even though I would have been hopeful that a multiple past champion may get enough attention to warrant a sponsored ride by *someone*.

Since I am still speculating that Graham Rahal will be driving one of the USF1s next year, I could see Bourdais make a smooth return back into the McDonald's car, just like in the good old days! ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Budding F1 hopefuls really need to perform well in a series like GP2 and/or perform well as a test driver for an F1 team. Unfortunately, now that testing in F1 is very limited, it remains with GP2, a series I know nothing about.

Maybe Torror Rosso should consider replacing Bordais with Taku. I know that would make a lot of people very happy here.

[stevie_gerrard]

I don't really know too much about him, but hopefully he can prove his worth in what is a sliding team at the moment.

[Lemmy-Boy]

The first thing you need to do in F1 is beat your team mate, regardless of how formidable the car package is. Bourdais clearly couldn't do that.

Well, considering with Bourdais (and not to mention with Andretti and Zanardi) we're talking about series champions who could not cut it in F1, I'd be amazed if you could even name three top F1 drivers who failed to impress in CART, IRL or whatever you wanna call it.


In fact, Tarso Marques actually competed in CART. He did not dominate as predicted by Brundle. His best finish was 9th while driving for Team Penske. What can you say about his performance? Wasn't he a top driver as predicted by the heir to Murray Walker? Did his magical F1 skills prove to be superior? The results don't lie.

What about Former F1 WDC, Nelson Piquet? He tried to qualify for Indy and almost got killed. Letho, Blundell, etc...Enuff said...They couldn't hack it. I can name many more of your Euro-snob F1 drivers who failed in the USA.

Just because you drive an F1 car, it doesn't mean you're among the top racers in the world and everyone else is minuscule. This doesn't mean Fernando Alonso can simply step into a NASCAR CUP CAR and beat Jeff Gordon. Nor does it mean Lewis Hamilton can step into a Dallara-Honda and beat Team Penske.

As I recall, Michael Schumacher didn't do too well on a Superbike. Did his super F1 skills make him a force on a racebike? After breaking a couple of bones, I think not...

The only F1 sensation to make an impact in the USA was Nigel Mansell. And the cry baby left one year later. After Team Penske started to whoop his ass, He didn't have the heart of a lion to fight back so he whimpered back to F1.

It works both ways across the pond, not just in the superficial, fairytale world of F1.

The best racers are the ones who can succeed in multiple disciplines, Mario Andretti, Juan Montoya, AJ Foyt, Jacques Villeneuve, Tony Stewart, Nigel Mansell, etc. Not even Michael Schumacher, or some over-hyped English F1 racer can match their ability to be successful in multiple series.

[DexDexter]

In fact, Tarso Marques actually competed in CART. He did not dominate as predicted by Brundle. His best finish was 9th while driving for Team Penske. What can you say about his performance? Wasn't he a top driver as predicted by the heir to Murray Walker? Did his magical F1 skills prove to be superior? The results don't lie.

What about Former F1 WDC, Nelson Piquet? He tried to qualify for Indy and almost got killed. Letho, Blundell, etc...Enuff said...They couldn't hack it. I can name many more of your Euro-snob F1 drivers who failed in the USA.

Just because you drive an F1 car, it doesn't mean you're among the top racers in the world and everyone else is minuscule. This doesn't mean Fernando Alonso can simply step into a NASCAR CUP CAR and beat Jeff Gordon. Nor does it mean Lewis Hamilton can step into a Dallara-Honda and beat Team Penske.

As I recall, Michael Schumacher didn't do too well on a Superbike. Did his super F1 skills make him a force on a racebike? After breaking a couple of bones, I think not...

The only F1 sensation to make an impact in the USA was Nigel Mansell. And the cry baby left one year later. After Team Penske started to whoop his ass, He didn't have the heart of a lion to fight back so he whimpered back to F1.

It works both ways across the pond, not just in the superficial, fairytale world of F1.

The best racers are the ones who can succeed in multiple disciplines, Mario Andretti, Juan Montoya, AJ Foyt, Jacques Villeneuve, Tony Stewart, Nigel Mansell, etc. Not even Michael Schumacher, or some over-hyped English F1 racer can match their ability to be successful in multiple series.

Nice joke. It's gotta be,right? :)

[ioan]

In fact, Tarso Marques actually competed in CART. He did not dominate as predicted by Brundle. His best finish was 9th while driving for Team Penske. What can you say about his performance? Wasn't he a top driver as predicted by the heir to Murray Walker? Did his magical F1 skills prove to be superior? The results don't lie.

What about Former F1 WDC, Nelson Piquet? He tried to qualify for Indy and almost got killed. Letho, Blundell, etc...Enuff said...They couldn't hack it. I can name many more of your Euro-snob F1 drivers who failed in the USA.

Just because you drive an F1 car, it doesn't mean you're among the top racers in the world and everyone else is minuscule. This doesn't mean Fernando Alonso can simply step into a NASCAR CUP CAR and beat Jeff Gordon. Nor does it mean Lewis Hamilton can step into a Dallara-Honda and beat Team Penske.

As I recall, Michael Schumacher didn't do too well on a Superbike. Did his super F1 skills make him a force on a racebike? After breaking a couple of bones, I think not...

The only F1 sensation to make an impact in the USA was Nigel Mansell. And the cry baby left one year later. After Team Penske started to whoop his ass, He didn't have the heart of a lion to fight back so he whimpered back to F1.

It works both ways across the pond, not just in the superficial, fairytale world of F1.

The best racers are the ones who can succeed in multiple disciplines, Mario Andretti, Juan Montoya, AJ Foyt, Jacques Villeneuve, Tony Stewart, Nigel Mansell, etc. Not even Michael Schumacher, or some over-hyped English F1 racer can match their ability to be successful in multiple series.

What an incredible load of BS. :rolleyes:
Just go watch some NASCAR and leave us to enjoy Formula One and it's drivers! :wave:

[Colin_Harvey]

In fact, Tarso Marques actually competed in CART. He did not dominate as predicted by Brundle. His best finish was 9th while driving for Team Penske. What can you say about his performance? Wasn't he a top driver as predicted by the heir to Murray Walker? Did his magical F1 skills prove to be superior? The results don't lie.

The fact that Marques qualified in 8th place at Rio in 1999, when he could barely qualify within 2 seconds of Alonso (who was a rookie that year) in 2001 suggests a gulf in talent between CART and F1.


What about Former F1 WDC, Nelson Piquet? He tried to qualify for Indy and almost got killed. Letho, Blundell, etc...Enuff said...They couldn't hack it. I can name many more of your Euro-snob F1 drivers who failed in the USA.

Piquet attempted two Indy 500s when he was in semi-retirement, so that hardly counts as a serious effort. As for Lehto and Blundell, they hardly set the world alight in F1. In fact Blundell, with his 3 CART wins in 1997, was far more successful in the US than he was in F1.


As I recall, Michael Schumacher didn't do too well on a Superbike. Did his super F1 skills make him a force on a racebike? After breaking a couple of bones, I think not...

As with Piquet, you're citing an example where a driver tried something else as a 'one-off' in retirement.


The only F1 sensation to make an impact in the USA was Nigel Mansell. And the cry baby left one year later. After Team Penske started to whoop his ass, He didn't have the heart of a lion to fight back so he whimpered back to F1.

Mansell eventually became world champion after 12 seasons, yet won Indycar in his first season, with a 55 year-old teammate, who would have been far too old to cut it in F1.


The best racers are the ones who can succeed in multiple disciplines, Mario Andretti, Juan Montoya, AJ Foyt, Jacques Villeneuve, Tony Stewart, Nigel Mansell, etc. Not even Michael Schumacher, or some over-hyped English F1 racer can match their ability to be successful in multiple series.

Montoya won CART in his first season and was considered by some to be the seconf coming, as a result of it. However, in F1 he proved to be good, although not a great, and appeared to be at the same level as Ralf Schumacher when at Williams and below Raikkonen at McLaren. It's my view that had Ralf Schumacher, Kimi Raikkonen, Jarno Trulli, Mark Webber, Giancarlo Fisichella or any other equivalent driver been in CART in 1999 instead of Montoya, then they too would have won the championship, such is the difference between F1 and any other single-seater championship.

[ioan]

Montoya won CART in his first season and was considered by some to be the seconf coming, as a result of it. However, in F1 he proved to be good, although not a great, and appeared to be at the same level as Ralf Schumacher when at Williams and below Raikkonen at McLaren. It's my view that had Ralf Schumacher, Kimi Raikkonen, Jarno Trulli, Mark Webber, Giancarlo Fisichella or any other equivalent driver been in CART in 1999 instead of Montoya, then they too would have won the championship, such is the difference between F1 and any other single-seater championship.

Wholeheartedly agree! :up:

[jens]

I agree with Colin Harvey that the Marques example and his "average CART results" aren't really meaningful in comparing F1 to CART. I even remember no-one else than Mr Alex Yoong himself making a brief visit to CCWS after his completely hopeless F1 experience. And while he may have not set the world alight in Champ Car, he actually achieved a more or less midfield result in an underfunded team and was outqualifying his team-mate Camathias. Well, not bad for one of the worst F1 drivers of all times. :)

[Colin_Harvey]

I even remember no-one else than Mr Alex Yoong himself making a brief visit to CCWS after his completely hopeless F1 experience. And while he may have not set the world alight in Champ Car, he actually achieved a more or less midfield result in an underfunded team and was outqualifying his team-mate Camathias. Well, not bad for one of the worst F1 drivers of all times. :)

That pretty much sums up the difference between F1 and American open-wheel racing:

Complete F1 no-hopers like Yoong and Marques achieve midfield results in CART/Indycar
F1 midfielders like Blundell and Zanardi win races in CART/Indycar
CART/Indycar champions are, on the whole, unable to cut it in F1.

[DexDexter]

That pretty much sums up the difference between F1 and American open-wheel racing:

Complete F1 no-hopers like Yoong and Marques achieve midfield results in CART/Indycar
F1 midfielders like Blundell and Zanardi win races in CART/Indycar
CART/Indycar champions are, on the whole, unable to cut it in F1.

The last proper CART/Indycar driver to make the switch into F1 was Michael Andretti and we know how it worked. These guys like to mention Montoya as an example of a CART driver, well his racing backround is more in Europe than America, he was the F3000 champion if I remember correctly. Villeneuve, Bourdais, raced mostly in Europe as well. It's going to be really difficult for USF1 to find a proper home grown driver since even now there is no succesful American driver in top level open-wheel racing in the States.

[D28]

The last proper CART/Indycar driver to make the switch into F1 was Michael Andretti and we know how it worked. These guys like to mention Montoya as an example of a CART driver, well his racing backround is more in Europe than America, he was the F3000 champion if I remember correctly. Villeneuve, Bourdais, raced mostly in Europe as well. It's going to be really difficult for USF1 to find a proper home grown driver since even now there is no succesful American driver in top level open-wheel racing in the States.

Jacques Villeneuve did race in Italian F3 and Japan F3 but he really made his mark in North America. His first real solid results were in Formula Atlantic. In 1994 he was 2nd at Indy and won his first CART race. In 1995 he won Indy and the CART title.

[DexDexter]

Jacques Villeneuve did race in Italian F3 and Japan F3 but he really made his mark in North America. His first real solid results were in Formula Atlantic. In 1994 he was 2nd at Indy and won his first CART race. In 1995 he won Indy and the CART title.

That's true, he was in the States for three years.

[D28]

Just because you drive an F1 car, it doesn't mean you're among the top racers in the world and everyone else is minuscule. This doesn't mean Fernando Alonso can simply step into a NASCAR CUP CAR and beat Jeff Gordon. Nor does it mean Lewis Hamilton can step into a Dallara-Honda and beat Team Penske.

The only F1 sensation to make an impact in the USA was Nigel Mansell. And the cry baby left one year later. After Team Penske started to whoop his ass, He didn't have the heart of a lion to fight back so he whimpered back to F1.

NASCAR is aspecial case, but I would not bet against Hamilton.

I'm afraid history does not support this view, (see my post in H&N Indycar drivers & F1). Of the 29 World Champions, just about half have Indy 500 experience. Five won outright, and another five were competitive, most the first time out. Indy never presented a problem to elite F1 drivers.
Some did not perform well there, but many were poorly managed efforts at the end of driving careers, like Piquet. True Indy is only one very unique circuit, not representative of US oval racing. Still some F1 drivers were competitive on the short ovals (Jim Clark won first time out at the tricky Milwaukee mile).
Emerson Fittipaldi had major impact on US ovals, winning Indy twice and the CART title long after his F1 days.

[markabilly]

NASCAR is aspecial case, but I would not bet against Hamilton.

I'm afraid history does not support this view, (see my post in H&N Indycar drivers & F1). Of the 29 World Champions, just about half have Indy 500 experience. Five won outright, and another five were competitive, most the first time out. Indy never presented a problem to elite F1 drivers.
Some did not perform well there, but many were poorly managed efforts at the end of driving careers, like Piquet. True Indy is only one very unique circuit, not representative of US oval racing. Still some F1 drivers were competitive on the short ovals (Jim Clark won first time out at the tricky Milwaukee mile).
Emerson Fittipaldi had major impact on US ovals, winning Indy twice and the CART title long after his F1 days.
One does have to treat Indy differently from the big ovals, because the corners are fairly flat, there are four of them that are both the same, yet different, sort of a semi road course with four high speed corners, hence you would expect very good roadracers to do well at indy, as distinguished from Daytona