New Twist (8th July) - FOTA teams walk out of FIA Technical meeting! [Archive]

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Giuseppe F1

8th July 2009, 18:15

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76777

FOTA teams walk out of FIA meeting

By Jonathan Noble
Wednesday, July 8th 2009, 15:54 GMT

The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) walked out of a technical meeting with the FIA about future rules on Wednesday, renewing doubts about the strength of the recent peace deal.

The FIA held one of its regular Technical Working Group meetings at the Nurburgring to make moves on finalising F1 rules, following agreement to scrap controversial budget cap regulations.

The meeting included representatives from all the current teams, plus new outfits US F1, Campos Meta and Manor Grand Prix.

Some progress was made in terms of agreeing to scrap the specific budget cap rules introduced on April 29.

However, the teams could not agree on a minimum weight limit for 2010, and there had also not been a sign-off of the legally binding agreement to reduce costs.

Of most interest, though, just a day after AUTOSPORT revealed that FOTA had been told that it could not finalise rules without agreement from non-member teams, the eight outfits involved in the organisation left the meeting when asked to provide input on further rule changes it hoped to see in place.

A statement from the FIA, detailing the meeting, said: "Following the decision of the World Council on 24 June to revert to the pre-29 April version of the 2010 F1 Sporting and Technical Regulations, the FIA today met the teams which have entered the 2010 Championship to seek their agreement to these changes.

"All changes have now been agreed subject only to the maintenance of the minimum weight at 620 kg and the signing of a legally binding agreement between all the teams competing in 2010 to reduce costs to the level of the early 1990s within two years, as promised by the FOTA representative in Paris on 24 June.

"The eight FOTA teams were invited to attend the meeting to discuss their further proposals for 2010. Unfortunately no discussion was possible because FOTA walked out of the meeting."

The decision by FOTA to walk out of the meeting has not yet been explained, but it has renewed fears that there is still major differences about its path for the future and the FIA's.

Mosley has already told FOTA that he is considering standing again as president in October in light of what he believes were deliberately misleading comments made to the media about a deal they reached last month to avert the threat of a breakaway.

Bagwan

8th July 2009, 18:42

The 620kg red herring has only to do with the exclusion of KERS , and the addition of the fuel tank enlargement , with re-fuelling banned .

"The decision....not yet been explained" .

I'm sure Max has no idea why they walked out .

Tazio

8th July 2009, 19:25

FOTA Press release:
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=335718

Max wouldn't be trying to pull a fast one on the Rebel Eight? :p :

ArrowsFA1

8th July 2009, 19:52

I'm sure Max has no idea why they walked out .
I'm sure he doesn't. This would have been the last thing he would have expected :crazy: :dozey:

Bagwan

8th July 2009, 20:19

FOTA Press release:
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=335718

Max wouldn't be trying to pull a fast one on the Rebel Eight? :p :

Max needs those rebels , or he has no championship .

Now they aren't entered at all ?

If this was a movie , it'd be about now that I would change the channel , as the plot has become implausable .

N. Jones

8th July 2009, 20:25

This is starting to get old and I am slowly losing my interest in F1......

Tazio

8th July 2009, 20:45

This is starting to get old and I am slowly losing my interest in F1......C'est la vie old chum.
I agree! Also with Baggy, this thing has more twists than a Soap Opera. :laugh:

Bagwan

8th July 2009, 20:52

Is it time to start talking about what the new series will be called again ?

I am looking forward to the Montreal race . It's going to be great .

They bargained , as they said , "in good faith" , and now they have no voting rights , the rights for which they bargained .

Since the eight FOTA teams aren't really entered , and 10 cars won't make a grid , will the remaining list of new entrants currently on hold need to put in the $1.2million deposit to Cosworth for engines that was required of those granted new entries already ?
Will they need to break current contracts with FOTA members first , in order to do so ?

Easy Drifter

8th July 2009, 21:09

And should FOTA readmit Williams and Force India and the other 3 also join FOTA where does that leave Mad Max.
I also remember he was suposed to keep out of F1 until the elections, as well as not running.
FOTA are not blameless but Mad Max seems to be the real problem.
SURPRISE SURPRISE. :vader:

8th July 2009, 21:16

"At no point in the Paris discussions was any requirement for unanimous agreement on regulations change expressed"

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=335718

Really?

"All teams will adhere to an upgraded version of the governance provisions of the 1998 Concorde Agreement."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76498

The 1998 Concorde Agreement required unanimity.

Easy Drifter

8th July 2009, 21:25

Note Tam, 'Upgraded' version of the Concorde Agreement.
I do not believe such a document exists yet.

8th July 2009, 21:32

N. Jones

8th July 2009, 21:39

C'est la vie old chum.
I agree! Also with Baggy, this thing has more twists than a Soap Opera. :laugh:

This whole saga just wears me down. I want to watch racing[i/]. If I wanted to watch [i]politics I would turn on any news channel.
That is why I don't comment on these stories. What a waste of time for fans.

We spend money on F1.

We spend time on F1.

We receive satisfaction (this comes in different forms because we are all different).

We receive nothing else.
There are so many sports out there that the slow demise (or destruction) of one will mean that fans will move onto something else.

5001

8th July 2009, 21:59

If the FOTA teams do like Formula One they can clear off to America and join the IRL or Nascar. Formula One 1950-2009 rest in peace

ioan

9th July 2009, 00:08

Hawkmoon

9th July 2009, 00:09

So apparently nobody from FOTA thought to check what was going to be in and what was going to be out of the updated agreement...that's how I read this statement from FOTA....

"At no point in the Paris discussions was any requirement for unanimous agreement on regulations change expressed"

Because if the FIA had specifically said there was going to be no unanimity clause, then FOTA would have come straight out and said it...but they haven't...which means that they have been....

Tools.

Maybe FOTA are fools for not checking the fine print but I think the FIA are pushing things too far when they refuse to allow the FOTA teams a voice after they were all listed on the official 2010 entry list. Surely the fact that they are on that list gives them a say in things?

The biggest mistake FOTA made was trusting Mosely and thus the FIA. I don't think they'll make the same mistake twice.

Maybe CVC have to step in. They can see their money evapourating before their very eyes. If they put pressure on Mosely, possibly through Bernie, then maybe a real solution can be reached. Afterall, CVC stand to lose the most, in terms of dollars, if there's a breakaway.

cynisca

9th July 2009, 00:19

Does anybody know who is the championship leader?

Because of so many politics in the Formula One I can't concentrate on the sporting side. Especially not when it goes about the future of the Formula One.

Valve Bounce

9th July 2009, 00:50

Max is reaping the fruits of what he seeded during the last 2 weeks. Remember all the talk about how nothing was signed after the WMSC meeting and so on and how he can change his mind if he wants too?!
The FOTA teams are fighting with his weapons now, nothing was signed, nothing was agreed, we do as we please, bye!

Looks like FOTA are set to drive him out of his FIA president seat because he is clearly not to be trusted.
All the power to them, I hope they manage to do it and than they dance on his grave again!

While I agree with your sentiments, the demise of Max may be a long drawn out battle which could affect next year's F1. I just wonder whether Max's departure is an absolute certainty. I wouldn't trust the bugger further than the length of a whip.

Saint Devote

9th July 2009, 01:25

This is termed negotiation. And walking out is an orthodox tactic used by all experienced negotiators.

So let not everyone become frantic and begin to plan a wake for f1.

Nobody wants a breakaway series and it has not been mentioned. Remember this is about deciding the rules and as always the structure of the negotiation has to be set first.

So calm down and ignore this all for now.

Lets concentrate on what will be a great German Grand Prix this weekend following the three week starvation period!

CNR

9th July 2009, 01:38

time to ask if the whole thing is a fix like the world wrestling federation

Easy Drifter

9th July 2009, 01:40

Valve Bounce

9th July 2009, 02:02

I really wouldn't call it walking out. The FIA excluded them from taking any part in the discussions or making any representations.
Therefore there was absolutely no purpose in the FOTA teams being there.
I said on the day 'peace' was supposedly made and Mad Max was to stay out of F1's affairs and that he would not run again that I didn't trust him on either. I just didn't expect it to only last one day.
I had dealings with him many years ago and didn't trust him then. I also knew first hand how March was run when he was in charge.

I think that Max wants his pound of flesh before he is forced out. He has made it so that teams which wanted to join FOTA and not Max F1 would be stymied while those who appeared to be loyal to him will have the benefit of saving Cosworth and possibility using an engine with different specs from the other FOTA teams.

Whichever way you look at it, this is unsettling for next year's championship. Most of us think that Max has a hidden agenda in all this - I just wonder whether he will exercise his right to extend his reign in the FIA.

Tazio

9th July 2009, 02:33

time to ask if the whole thing is a fix like the world wrestling federationBack up mister! Are you claiming the WWF is fixed now? :confused: :p :

markabilly

9th July 2009, 04:19

I think that Max wants his pound of flesh before he is forced out. He has made it so that teams which wanted to join FOTA and not Max F1 would be stymied while those who appeared to be loyal to him will have the benefit of saving Cosworth and possibility using an engine with different specs from the other FOTA teams.

Whichever way you look at it, this is unsettling for next year's championship. Most of us think that Max has a hidden agenda in all this - I just wonder whether he will exercise his right to extend his reign in the FIA.

Well duh, you think?

Read my posts about how the deck is stacked against any challenger, and now this stuff.....welll duh, everyone thinks he is crazy, he is, crazy like a fox, and if they are not careful..."FOTA" will have a different meaning...
Either maX gets paid off big time, like the cheating sorry crook that he is....or he will keep his job

I really wouldn't call it walking out. The FIA excluded them from taking any part in the discussions or making any representations.
Therefore there was absolutely no purpose in the FOTA teams being there.
I said on the day 'peace' was supposedly made and Mad Max was to stay out of F1's affairs and that he would not run again that I didn't trust him on either. I just didn't expect it to only last one day.
I had dealings with him many years ago and didn't trust him then. I also knew first hand how March was run when he was in charge.

No, Whiting told them as they were not full members, they could observe, but they get no vote......

I tell you the original ole dead "markabilly" is loving every second of it....
and FOTA is gonna be sorry, they did not stick with their plan :rolleyes:
Who needs personal exprience about trusting him...just look at this behavior during the trial, hardly a sniffle about his family, and all about him and his haobby being ruined by the publicity...if a man betrays his own family, and does it very publicly without a single apology......then you think someone who is not family should trust him?????

Valve Bounce

9th July 2009, 05:06

Read my posts about how the deck is stacked against any challenger, and now this stuff.....

Can't!! :( I'm busy with Sudoku in an effort to unscramble my brain. :eek:

superocean

9th July 2009, 08:39

Back up mister! Are you claiming the WWF is fixed now? :confused: :p :
Originally Posted by thunderbolt http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=658812#post658812)
time to ask if the whole thing is a fix like the world wrestling federation

Dudes Santa promised me that Wrestling was real. He said that the Toothfairy had to ask him for a bailout because all the wrestler kept losing their teeth from real wrestling and she was running out of money.

wmcot

9th July 2009, 10:11

Does anybody know who is the championship leader?

I think it's Max somebody or Bernie somebody, but I'm not too sure...

wmcot

9th July 2009, 10:12

time to ask if the whole thing is a fix like the world wrestling federation

That's pretty insulting to the WWF! ;)

ArrowsFA1

9th July 2009, 11:13

Maybe CVC have to step in. They can see their money evapourating before their very eyes. If they put pressure on Mosely, possibly through Bernie, then maybe a real solution can be reached. Afterall, CVC stand to lose the most, in terms of dollars, if there's a breakaway.
That's a good point.

Sources suggest that F1 owners CVC are furious with the latest development, which has cast a cloud over the future of the sport just a few weeks after peace had broken out.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76778

Valve Bounce

9th July 2009, 11:21

That's a good point.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76778

Money talking at last.

AndyL

9th July 2009, 11:22

C'est la vie old chum.
I agree! Also with Baggy, this thing has more twists than a Soap Opera. :laugh:

Aha, now things start to become clear... I think you are on to something there. I reckon when Max is stepping down, and the breakaway is off, that's Max Mosely. When he's going to stand again and FOTA are not entered in the championship, that's Max's EVIL TWIN :D

Sonic

9th July 2009, 12:06

That's pretty insulting to the WWF! ;)

The world wildlife fund? ;) They changed the name to WWE like ten years ago.

Back on topic. I am now convinced that the whole way the sport is governed needs to be changed. IMO it is time for the FIA president to be taken out of the equation. I propose a system whereby the FIA propose a rule change, which is then debated by each of the F1 TEAMS (Fota or not) and a majority decision reached and one vote cast based on that majority verdict. The commercial rights holders also get one vote, as do a new body devoted purely to F1 (similar to the old FISA), giving three votes in total. IMO this is fair and gives a proportional vote to the main players - it won't please all the people all the time but its got to be better than averyone being p1ssed all the time!

This takes maX out of the equation even if he does go back on his word and stands again.

Thoughts?

V12

9th July 2009, 13:05

I'm glad you put (8th July) in the topic title, because I'm starting to lose track of all these walkouts, arguments and fallings out, I wouldn't have known which one you were on about!

ArrowsFA1

9th July 2009, 14:14

"Before FOTA's decision to walk out of yesterday's Technical Working Group meeting, the President of the FIA wrote twice to the President of FOTA to remind him that any amendments to the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship regulations were subject to the unanimous approval of the five teams that had already entered for next season under the rules as published," said the FIA in a statement.
"This is because of the International Sporting Code and also because the entered teams have a contract with the FIA which not even the General Assembly or the World Council can abrogate. Anyone with an elementary knowledge of motor sport governance knows this.
"Imagine the uproar if, after the FOTA teams had entered, the World Council were subsequently to change the rules without asking them.
"It follows that the agreement of the five teams currently entered in the 2010 World Championship to all 2010 rule changes is required.
"To suggest that FOTA were only made aware of this during the meetings of yesterday is quite simply untrue. So is the implicit claim that they were all unaware of one of motor sport's basic principles."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76783

markabilly

9th July 2009, 14:25

reading the whole article and esp. considering its source.....FOTA needs to run from the FIA like a rabbit from a dog....and take CVC with it, absent bernie.....

Luca is in over his head trying to cut a deal with benie and max

they and fans will regret it if they do not.

all fota needs are the key tracks, and those tracks cancelling benie
the longer they wait, the more dificult it becomes and then maxie will have his way

The choice is simple: When Alexander was presented the gordian knot, he could have spent the rest of his life mired in a quest to untie it, instead he cut the ties that bind

9th July 2009, 14:28

"To suggest that FOTA were only made aware of this during the meetings of yesterday is quite simply untrue. So is the implicit claim that they were all unaware of one of motor sport's basic principles."

"The deal that the FIA reached with FOTA in Paris was to extend the 1998 Concorde Agreement with some minor amendments to the governance section. This would have put in place an F1 Commission to deal with future rules with any major question going to the FIA Senate. However, on 25 June, instead of the 1998 Agreement with some minor amendments, the FIA received 350 pages of a completely new Concorde Agreement"

Valve Bounce

9th July 2009, 16:05

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76783
Max is trying to provoke FOTA into something - what I am not sure at the moment. Seeing I am watching the Tour live, I a only hre during adverts.

ioan

9th July 2009, 16:30

"To suggest that FOTA were only made aware of this during the meetings of yesterday is quite simply untrue. So is the implicit claim that they were all unaware of one of motor sport's basic principles."

The art you are missing and Max is cleverly try to hide is that yesterday CW (or should I say WC?!) told the teams that they aren't entered officially for next seasons championship and as a consequence they do not have the right to vote any rule changes.

Now, get your head straight and tell me what should they do in a meeting where they have no rights to say whatsoever with regards to the discussed theme?! :rolleyes:

markabilly

9th July 2009, 16:36

The art you are missing and Max is cleverly try to hide is that yesterday CW (or should I say WC?!) told the teams that they aren't entered officially for next seasons championship and as a consequence they do not have the right to vote any rule changes.

Now, get your head straight and tell me what should they do in a meeting where they have no rights to say whatsoever with regards to the discussed theme?! :rolleyes:
well, duh, and speaking of being a true fan of ferrari....seems tamb is on the wrong side here.....maybe i need to point that out in the other thread

Roamy

9th July 2009, 17:25

WTFO how long are the owners and sponsors who spend billions to put on this spectactular show going to listen to this little fag???? If you control the drivers you control the show. The problem with the IRL/CART deal was the command of the drivers. Who are you going to watch next yr? I will watch the current drivers regardless of what the series is called. Plus probably get to see a host of new tracks such as the one in so. portugal.

Somebody

9th July 2009, 18:13

Wait... wait... Max was claiming not so long ago that Ferrari, Red Bull and Toro Rosso were absolutely and definitively entered for 2010 whether they liked it or not. Why were THEY excluded, and told they didn't have entries? Max's FIA aren't even being consistent with themselves now!

ioan

9th July 2009, 20:45

Looks like the CVC finally decided that enough is enough and went over Maxie and Bernie to have an agreement directly with the teams:

http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/both-sides-agree-f1-row-is-close-to-conclusion/

Best part of it:

Tonight a FOTA spokesman said, “We no longer have either the willingness of the intention of taking about the FIA president.”

Looks like they are set to bore Max to death! :laugh: