Driving Lessons for 16 year-olds

[MG2004]

My son wants to take driving lessons "off-road" before he turns 17 to give him a head start on his test when he turns 17.

A local driving school is offering lessons at £50 an hour on a private road system when they charge £23 an hour for lessons on the road (which he can't have yet).

Do you think this is reasonable? I know they have to pay for the off-road venue and insurance etc but I'm not sure about the difference.

Has anybody else had experience of under 17s training? How much did you/would you pay?

Thanks for any advice.

[Daniel]

My son wants to take driving lessons "off-road" before he turns 17 to give him a head start on his test when he turns 17.

A local driving school is offering lessons at £50 an hour on a private road system when they charge £23 an hour for lessons on the road (which he can't have yet).

Do you think this is reasonable? I know they have to pay for the off-road venue and insurance etc but I'm not sure about the difference.

Has anybody else had experience of under 17s training? How much did you/would you pay?

Thanks for any advice.
To be honest I'd reccomend karting over lessons. I started karting when I was about 13 or so and I think it really helped me when it came to driving on the road for real. With karting you've got a wheel and a go fast pedal and a go slow pedal which anyone can work after a few minutes of getting used to it. It gives people the hand eye co-ordination and it means that when they come to drive an actual car they've just got to work on the clutch and gears as steering, braking and accelerating will be natural.

Just my personal opinion as I've no experience of off road lessons myself!

[Mark]

My son wants to take driving lessons "off-road" before he turns 17 to give him a head start on his test when he turns 17.

A local driving school is offering lessons at £50 an hour on a private road system when they charge £23 an hour for lessons on the road (which he can't have yet).

Do you think this is reasonable? I know they have to pay for the off-road venue and insurance etc but I'm not sure about the difference.

Has anybody else had experience of under 17s training? How much did you/would you pay?

Thanks for any advice.

Considering you have the use of the facility with all that entails I think £50 an hour is a reasonable price on their part. But it's still expensive IMO.

As Daniel says, Karting might be more appropriate, and cheaper. Driving tuition these days is all about going slow and safe, so what does a 17 year old do when they get in a car on their own for the first time? They race off down the road and stuff it into a tree or a field.

[Dave B]

Do you have any friendly local farmers or landowners? Buy an old banger for what you'd pay for two hours' tuition time then teach him yourself. Plus when it inevitably breaks down you can teach him how to fix it.

I started at 13 in a Talbot Samba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talbot_Samba) (stop laughing) in a local car park, with the consent of the owner. Learning how to control the vehicle itself is a doddle, and it means that when he starts lessons he can concentrate on learning roadcraft rather than what all the knobs and levers do.

[GridGirl]

My younger brother who is now 23 took off road lessons when he was 16. Although at that time they were only around £15 per lesson. My parents sure as hell wouldn't have paid £50 a lesson.

Anyway, my brother passed his test first time after about 5 months of turning 17 and two or three of those months were waiting for the test date as he couldn't get a test cancellation. Off road lessons worked for my brother as he'd already mastered all the manouvers before he went on the road legally at 17. He only needed to concentrate on reading the road and roundabouts if I remember rightly.

Where are the off road lessons to be held? My brother learnt on a trading estate where the instructor had permission to use it on a Saturday only. There were cars and people about but not many.

As soon as he passed his test he did pass plus to bring his insurance down. The expense never ends....

[Mark]

Where are the off road lessons to be held? My brother learnt on a trading estate where the instructor had permission to use it on a Saturday only. There were cars and people about but not many.


How does that work? A 16 year old can't drive unless it's completely 'off road', by that means completely inacessible to the public, so they can't drive in supermarket car parks etc either. Presumably the trading estate would have been gated off and only authorised people given access? Otherwise the Road Traffic Act would apply.

[Daniel]

Considering you have the use of the facility with all that entails I think £50 an hour is a reasonable price on their part. But it's still expensive IMO.

As Daniel says, Karting might be more appropriate, and cheaper. Driving tuition these days is all about going slow and safe, so what does a 17 year old do when they get in a car on their own for the first time? They race off down the road and stuff it into a tree or a field.

Good point. I was karting for years before I drove a car and when I got into a car it was rather underwhelming in terms of speed so I think I left my racing for the kart track.

[Sonic]

£50 is about the going rate, as insuring the cars for under 17's is VERY expensive. Just ensure that the instructor is fully "green badged", eg not someone just trying to make a quick buck.

[MrJan]

I learnt to drive in car parks and on a disused airfield from around the time I was 10, when I eventually learnt on the road it was made much easier by having grasped the basics. Sadly foot and mouth ruined everything and the bloke started locking the gate and stopping people from going in. Recently my dad got a track car and we contacted the owner again and he'd charge £40 to let you in for a day and throw it about, much better in the long run but can put some strains on the father/son relationship :D

[Mark]

£50 is about the going rate, as insuring the cars for under 17's is VERY expensive. Just ensure that the instructor is fully "green badged", eg not someone just trying to make a quick buck.

Of course if you are on a public road then taking money for driving lessons without the ADI green badge is illegal.

[raybak]

Showing my age, but we used to drive on the farm and the local constabulary would let us drive the farm ute to high school as long as we stuck to backroads. So I've been driving on the backroads since I was 13. When I went for my licence I was basically signed off straight away and didn't have to do the written test. Bit hard nowadays with having to go thru the RTA.

Ray

[Easy Drifter]

Way back when I drove on back roads when I was 14. Legal age 16.
I also got lose in a stock car at 16 on a dirt track until the powers that be figured out I wasn't the regular driver. Age then to race was 21.
Different era.

[GridGirl]

It's been 7 years since my brother did his off road driving but I'm guessing the reason he could only do it on a certain day on the trading estate was because they could only do it when the place was officially closed and no other cars were technically supposed to be there. I have no idea how that would of worked if you had an accident though.

My brother did his off road driving with a local driving school. When I still see cars from the same school they still advertise the off road lessons so I'm guessing whatever they do can't be illegal.

I remember when I learnt to drive and it was only £8 a lesson. That makes me feel old!

[MrJan]

I remember when I learnt to drive and it was only £8 a lesson. That makes me feel old!

I learnt for free :D My old man used to take me out once I got the L-plates, people said that I wouldn't be such a good driver as if I took proper lessons, 100% on the theory and passed first time with 5 minors :D :D People know nothing :p :

[MG2004]

Thanks for all the advice.

I've checked and it is a proper driving school with dual controlled car and "green badged" ADI instructor.

I've also seen the off-road area and it is pretty extensive with proper tarmac roads with junctions and road markings. I wish there had been something like that when I was learning - certainly much better than a car park.

Decided to give it a go - my son is adamant that it was he wants to spend his birthday money on and it looks good.

[J4MIE]

Ahhhh I am feeling old as well, my little brother passed his theory test today and is now booking lessons with the same guy that tought me and my sister many years ago.

However I first started driving in a friend's garden :s tareup: and did teach me a lot, though as I was never told it took me a while before I realised that you had to put the clutch down if you were stopping in gear, rather than just standing on the brakes. Was good fun while the car lasted!! :D

[christophulus]

My first go at driving for real was when I was about 14. It was at the British motorshow and BSM did a kind of young drivers course, probably very similar to what you've found.

I think getting to grips with how to operate the car is a good idea before you head out onto the road, certainly helped me out.

[jso1985]

I agree, getting to know how to operate a car before you're thrown to the roads with angry truck drivers passing you is better.

I learnt the basics on a disused airstrip when I was 16, then I finally dominated basic handling and specially how to use properly the gearbox going to the roads wasn't much difficult, although I think it would have been really difficult for a nervous guy I am to learn how to use the clutch with lots of cars around me.

[Easy Drifter]

One thing I feel it should be mandatory to learn on a standard not an automatic.
I realize in Europe most people still do.
Over here not many do and some driving schools do not even have standards.
There have been emergencies where all that was available was standard and no one knew how to drive standard!
Even back in the 60's when I was a racing school instructor we quickly learned to ask the pupils if they had even driven a stick shift. If the answer was no they were told to learn and come back later. We didn't have time nor enough cars (or money) to let teach them and let them learn on the school cars. We were trying to teach basic racing not be road driving instructors.

[driveace]

In the Isle of Man you can legally drive at 16.
As the earliest registered Driving Instructor on the DRIVING STANDARDS AGENCY REGISTER(1167) and anEx Driving Examiner for the Department of Transport,let me tell you there is very little advantage of having lessons on private ground or roads.I have taken lots of yougsters on their 1st driving lesson on their 17th birthdays,who have driven on private airfields (Tockwith ) is near to my instructing town,and they have NO idea how to go up or down hills.As the car reacts differantly to the gradiants they are baffled.I have taught loads of younsters over the years AND they have passed their driving tests in ONLY 3 to 4 WEEKS with many a time NO minor Faults,if they had any faults marked it was always less than 4.I remember taking a reasonably well known young go cart racer,a few years ago,and he tried to brake on EVERY corner ,which is a NO.NO !
SO my advice is to get a GRADE 6 INSTRUCTOR with a very high pass rate.MY pass rate is over 90%,whereas the national average is ONLY 42%.May I add I have been instructing over 47 YEARS!

[Mark]

Well certainly in the uk if you pass your test in a manual you can drive all cars. But if you pass in an automatic then that is all you are licenced to drive. So getting an automatic licence is often seen as the last resort of those totally unable to get to grips with a manual transmission.

[driveace]

If you pass in a MANUAL gearbox car you get a "B" car licence which covers you for Motor cars or light vans with up to 8 passenger seats and up to 3500kg with a light trailer .Whereas if you use an AUTOMATIC gear car for your test you get a "B" with a code 78 ,in the code definitions says restricted to vehicles with "Auto matic Transmissions" it used to be a BA licence

[Easy Drifter]

In Ontario and I believe in most and probably all of NA there is no difference.
Many eons ago when I got my licence I got the supposedly more difficult Chauffer (SP) licence which allowed mr to drive anything, although all I had driven was a car.
It is different now with motorcycle licences, commercial and bus licences plus restrictions on new drivers.
The standard licence now is a 'G' licence.
That limits you to cars and small commercial vechiles like pickups and vans.
What is funny is that you can drive any size of motorhome. My ex has a 34 foot Winnie and a G licence.
I only hold a G now but have driven large trucks including 18 wheelers.

[MrJan]

In the Isle of Man you can legally drive at 16.
As the earliest registered Driving Instructor on the DRIVING STANDARDS AGENCY REGISTER(1167) and anEx Driving Examiner for the Department of Transport,let me tell you there is very little advantage of having lessons on private ground or roads.I have taken lots of yougsters on their 1st driving lesson on their 17th birthdays,who have driven on private airfields (Tockwith ) is near to my instructing town,and they have NO idea how to go up or down hills.As the car reacts differantly to the gradiants they are baffled.I have taught loads of younsters over the years AND they have passed their driving tests in ONLY 3 to 4 WEEKS with many a time NO minor Faults,if they had any faults marked it was always less than 4.I remember taking a reasonably well known young go cart racer,a few years ago,and he tried to brake on EVERY corner ,which is a NO.NO !
SO my advice is to get a GRADE 6 INSTRUCTOR with a very high pass rate.MY pass rate is over 90%,whereas the national average is ONLY 42%.May I add I have been instructing over 47 YEARS!

Then the people who drove on airfields and were confused by a hill are idiots, you can't allow for stupidity. I don't see how you can disagree with young drivers learning some of the basics off road beforehand, surely it's good that they have some knowledge of how a car works before they are unleashed on the public? There will always be people that learn on an airfield and fail miserably and those that step into a car for the first time and learn really quickly, for the most part though I don't think that a bit of prior knowledge can ever be a bad thing.

As far as I'm concerned it was a great help, I avoided paying a fortune to instructors like yourself and passed just as well (or actually better if the pass rate is only 42%). While I was taking my test the other instructors back at the centre asked my Mum who I learnt with and all the other blokes tutted when she said it was with my Dad. Some of their people didn't pass that day but I did, saving several hundred quid in the process. People still try to tell me that I won't be as good a driver as someone taught by an instructor but by combining my Dad's knowledge with text books and practice I passed with a few stupid minors, mistakes which I took onboard and rectified :)

[Hazell B]

I too learned off road, both on bikes and in cars and 7 1/2 ton wagons. I also reversed a lot of trailers of all sizes about in yards from the age of about 14.

The results were both bike and car test passed first time, never an accident caused by myself and a clean licence. Having said that I did get some points at the age of 16 as I was on the back of a bike with no helmet along what we thought was private (but turned out to be public) lane, but that's life. I also battered myself up a bit falling off bikes on the Isle of Man during TT weeks (three times one year :rolleyes: ) but again that's life and I hurt nobody else. Too much bike and not enough me in every case :p :

So long as the under age ones don't get over confident of their ability once they're on the roads, I think learning early is brilliant. It's far from fair when they rive about on land they shouldn't be on, though that's another topic.

[Hazell B]

By the way, I expect driveace's high pass rate is down to people who've already failed moving to him for the follow up lessons and a second chance. I cannot believe anyone can have a 90% rate on first timers only ;)

[driveace]

I said that I have taught lots of young drivers who have passed their driving tests within 3 to 4 weeks of their 17th birthday.How can they have had tests with other instructors before having lessons with myself Hazell.
MrJan Yeo ,Isaid a lot of my pupils pass 1st time with NO minor faults ,not a lot of silly faults..
Do you guys not realise that there is a grading system in opperation for ALL driving instructors in the UK,carried out every 3 to 4 years for ALL instructors .The TOP grade is a grade 6 there are thousands of instructors in the UK AND LESS THAN 1000 are TOP GRADE 6 .And there will be less than 10 instructors in the UK who have been EX DRIVING EAMINERS.I am both a grade 6 instructor ,and an ex Driving Examiner,also I teach HGV C+E.So I have a licence for ALL HGV,s

[driveace]

What young people do is WATCH other drivers as they drive and on their 1st lesson they have a very good idea what to do.Its not rocket science driving a car,My 2 latest grandsons had NEVER driven on the road OR private ground before their 17th birthday and their 1st lesson on that day,they were very good .Both passed with less than 3 minors in 3 weeks ,last year,driving just requires common sense,not a degree in anything!

[MrJan]

I said that I have taught lots of young drivers who have passed their driving tests within 3 to 4 weeks of their 17th birthday.How can they have had tests with other instructors before having lessons with myself Hazell.
MrJan Yeo ,Isaid a lot of my pupils pass 1st time with NO minor faults ,not a lot of silly faults..
Do you guys not realise that there is a grading system in opperation for ALL driving instructors in the UK,carried out every 3 to 4 years for ALL instructors .The TOP grade is a grade 6 there are thousands of instructors in the UK AND LESS THAN 1000 are TOP GRADE 6 .And there will be less than 10 instructors in the UK who have been EX DRIVING EAMINERS.I am both a grade 6 instructor ,and an ex Driving Examiner,also I teach HGV C+E.So I have a licence for ALL HGV,s

I'm not doubting your credentials but you are digging a bigger pit for yourself. From what you are saying you seem to be an extremely well qualified instructor with a much better percentage than a lot of others, sadly I think that most yoofs in my home town of Exeter will probably consider the Isle of Man a touch too far away for a lesson so will probably end up with on of the blokes dragging down that average pass rate from your 90% to the average 42%. In fact for every one instructor with a 90% rate there can be 2 with an 18% pass rate, therefore meaning that the majority of driving instructors have a piss poor percentage.

Say that one of your pupils passed with 5 faults (like myself), do you believe that they would be a better driver due to having learnt through the 'proper channels' and handed over a small fortune to someone like yourself?

Incidentally i'm not saying that everyone should go out and learn with their parents, just that I did and it seems to have worked fine for me not least due to having had experience of handling a car from an early age.

[GridGirl]

I think debating the rights and wrongs of having a grade 6 instructor and passing with only 3 or 4 minor faults is slightly missing the point. Everyone can play the game for the 40 minute test duration and appear to 'ace' the test. This is not to say that they don't revert to more relaxed and less than perfect driving habits within a short time after passing. I will honestly admit that I have a couple of bad but not dangerous driving habbits.

No one can essentially take your license away from you unless you specifically loose your licence through disqualification or give up your licence due to illness. Those 40 minutes during the test whether it takes one or five attempts to pass pass can last for one hell of a long time.

My dad decided to stop driving in January due to having cateracts and increasingly poor vision. No one actually told him to give up driving. Technically he could still be driving on the roads with his clean license having passed his test god knows how many years ago with only a small number of minor faults. Aceing that test at 17 counts for nothing 43 years later, although my dad does plan to start driving again once he has his final cateract operation.

[MrJan]

That's true GridGirl, I've always believed that there should be a test which everyone takes after a certain amount of time because there are a lot of older people who really shouldn't be on the road (especially as they passed when there was a lot less traffic). That said there are probably more young people that shouldn't be driving.

[Easy Drifter]

As many of you know I am an old fart.
I got my licence when I was 17 that let me drive anything. I had driven nothing but a car, albeit nothing but a standard. However someone who had driven nothing but an automatic could have received the same licence, enabling one to drive transports or buses. But I had also driven a race car on dirt until the officials caught me!
I took my test in a small town (then) outside of Toronto. I made 4 right turns, two left, both at a traffic light controlled intersection and a simple written test. I never was in reverse. I was never on a highway. My instructor would not let me drive on the highway either to or from the test!
Was I compentent? Not really. To drive a big rig? No bloody way. But I was licenced to do so.
Today I probably make a few mistakes, but I hope only minor ones. I have driven 18 wheelers and all other sorts of trucks and motor homes. No busses or motorcycles. Raced for 9 years. Instucted at a racing school for two years and was a CASC instuctor for several more.
That test was a joke. Today I think far more realistic but in many cases there is still no highway component. Although I do not see a real answer someone who learns to drive in rural Canada sure is not prepared for traffic in cities like Toronto (full of people who really shouldn't have a licence) or Mtl. where most are good but aggressive. I grew up in Toronto and have driven in Mtl. and most major NA cities.
Mind you now that I live in cottage/resort country I swear that most 'Turistas' put their brains in neutral when they go on holidays. :D

[Sonic]

What young people do is WATCH other drivers as they drive

Hi driveace. Couldn't agree with you more. Which is why I'm surprised you don't think early driving helps. I look at it this way - my earliest car memory is 4 years old in my dads TR6 going hell for leather (dad always drove very quick). So I then had 13 years or so of watching that kind of driving meaning when I got behind the wheel at 17 that was all I knew about driving. My instructor taught me how to drive on the road and I passed 1st time with 3DF's, but having had the 13 year "education" from dad I drove like a tit from day one until a nice police officer taught me a lesson.

I'm glad to say I then turned over a new leaf, became an ARDS instructor and later an ADI and now as a fellow "perfect 6" ADI I opperate a young driver experience (with hills! :) ) and most of what we do is trying to undo what they kids see mum and dad doing. They learn valuable control skills, but more to the point I hope they learn from my mistakes as a 17 year old without them having to learn the hard way.

[Hazell B]

How can they have had tests with other instructors before having lessons with myself Hazell.


Maybe they learned off the roads first and just came to you for the test passing experience ;)
I'm kind of getting the impression you tell them you don't like parents, etc. teaching them, so they wouldn't tell you if they were already semi-experienced ;)

I met somebody who has a strip of land near his 4x4 centre the other day. It's let out to people who teach road skills off road, or allow lessons by anyone on the area. They charge about twenty quid an hour just to use the site, about double with an instructor (who may not be qualified, I didn't ask).

Not cheap, is it? :eek:

[BDunnell]

That's true GridGirl, I've always believed that there should be a test which everyone takes after a certain amount of time because there are a lot of older people who really shouldn't be on the road (especially as they passed when there was a lot less traffic). That said there are probably more young people that shouldn't be driving.

One problem with retesting, as good an idea as it probably is, is that the bureaucracy associated with doing so would be immense. Some driving test centres have a big enough backlog dealing with existing tests. No reason not to retest, I know, but worth mentioning.

[driveace]

I now also do lots of driver testing/training of company drivers ,where they have a bad accident level,with their insurance company,s. HGVs,Vans, and cars.The surprising thing is that ,when anybody passes their driving test at 17 years old they will not/do not get their EYES tested again till at least 70 years old by the DSA.With driver testing,just lately out of a group of 15 van drivers I was assessing/testing ,one could NOT READ a number plate at 12 metres,and although I can STRESS that he goes for an EYE test ,I cannot make him ,although his employed NOW KNOWS he has an eyesight problem.,which he did not know before .

[BDunnell]

I now also do lots of driver testing/training of company drivers ,where they have a bad accident level,with their insurance company,s. HGVs,Vans, and cars.The surprising thing is that ,when anybody passes their driving test at 17 years old they will not/do not get their EYES tested again till at least 70 years old by the DSA.With driver testing,just lately out of a group of 15 van drivers I was assessing/testing ,one could NOT READ a number plate at 12 metres,and although I can STRESS that he goes for an EYE test ,I cannot make him ,although his employed NOW KNOWS he has an eyesight problem.,which he did not know before .

Employers generally are rubbish when it comes to providing the free eye tests to which their employees are entitled.

[J4MIE]

My dad decided to stop driving in January due to having cateracts and increasingly poor vision. No one actually told him to give up driving. Technically he could still be driving on the roads with his clean license having passed his test god knows how many years ago with only a small number of minor faults. Aceing that test at 17 counts for nothing 43 years later, although my dad does plan to start driving again once he has his final cateract operation.

Hope everything gets sorted out with your dad, my gran went through this last autumn and stopped driving for a few weeks but has been driving since then and even got a new car!

[TheFamousEccles]

One point that I think is missing in much driver training here in Australia, and maybe overseas too, is that many yoof these days are far too cocky and generally once they pass their driver testing are off, with no idea of what a car feels like when it is out of control. Many accidents and much grief could be avoided if they were taught how to recover a car in a slide (front and rear wheel drive react differently, as I am sure many of you are aware). Too many react in exactly the wrong way and stuff the thing into a tree or something.

At the moment in South Australia (the state in Oz where I live) kiddies are able to get their license too easily, then get into a WRX or a Commodore (largish rwd sedan for those who don't know- the current weapon of choice for many of the yoof) and go boy-racing into the nearest tree or stobie pole (power pole). The fatalities are up over 20% on last year, and non fatal accidents are through the roof, with 17 to 30yo way over represented. I think that there should be a limit on power and passengers - if it's good enough for motorcyclists (me included) then why not for cars?

Far too many kiddies (read: teenage males) could barely successfully drive their fingers up their daits, let alone a car - and being a motorcyclist I am all too aware of the bravado. And as a theatre nurse I am tired of helping stitch them back together.

[Mark]

There's often been talk of limiting what car youngsters can drive. i.e. It's possible to pass your test in a 1.0 Micra then jump straight into a WRX. But the reality is that nobody except the super-rich can afford the insurance to do that. Even in the lowest powered, cheapest car the insurance costs for 17 year olds are huge, even third party, as when they crash they are likely to crash into things!

[Hazell B]

Unless they go as un-named drivers on mummy's policy, as several of my friends do. That way they can drive something their parent owns on paper but is realistically their own car. One of the lads at the wholesaler I use is about twenty five I guess, yet has had so many scrapes he's still using a car registered in his dad's name and insured for all members of the family.

I just pray they don't hurt anybody, as it's very, very close to being without insurance in my opinion :(

[GridGirl]

Hazel, I think the term you are referring to is called masking. Insurance companies such as direct line offer no claims discounts to named drivers on a policy but problems arise when mummy or daddy claim two lots of no claims discount when they insure both their own and the second car. You can't have a no claims discount on one car and then again on the car that is essentially juniors as far as I understand it. That's where it all become dodgy.

[MrJan]

It's fairly common for parents to insure a car as the main driver but it's actually the kids car. I think companies are clamping down on it and you will be in a world of hurt if they find out.

I have always either borrowed my Mum's car which she drove more often or have held my own policy. The trouble is that it costs so damn much, especially having spent years on my Ma's policy. I am 24 and have been driving accident free for 5 years now but only have 1 years NCB as never had the cash before. Getting insurance quotes is a mixture of hilarity and extreme depression :D

[Mark]

I've heard many tales where the insurance company doesn't quite believe that the Saxo with lowered suspension and blacked out windows actually belongs to his dear old gran.

[GridGirl]

They may not believe but if Gran has it regisgered in her name and insures in in her name there is nothing that the insurance companies can do about it. Although I suppose there must be a limit as to when gran's insurance becomes more expensive than juniors.

My brother has had his own insurance policy since he was 17 but has always insured my mum as a second named driver because it reduces his policy premium. When I've tried it on mine the premium always goes up. :(