2009 Brawn GP is 'most expensive Formula 1 car'

[CNR]

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14964&Itemid=219

After the car won three quarters of every Formula One race so far under the 2009 regulations, Alex Wurz has revealed the secret of the Brawn BGP001
Q: how much will transfer to the 2010 car or is brawn a 1 year wonder

[ioan]

5 wind tunnels and 500 million Euros!

Way over what Toyota, McLaren and Ferrari ever had, and people still think it's Ross Brawn who single single handedly built a wonder! :rotflmao:

[markabilly]

HONDA built the tunnels and spent the money, then pulled the plug, leaving Brawn with a very small operating budget....but it ain't having all those toys and money, it is knowing what to do with them---and toyota is still lost

[ioan]

HONDA built the tunnels and spent the money, then pulled the plug, leaving Brawn with a very small operating budget....but it ain't having all those toys and money, it is knowing what to do with them---and toyota is still lost

Brawn has for this year a budget 2x as big as that of Force India and as big as STR, all paid for by Honda. So stop talking about 'very small' budgets in relation to Brawn GP.

[Mark]

That's a stupid website that it won't allow you to copy+paste quotes from it!

[ioan]

That's a stupid website that it won't allow you to copy+paste quotes from it!

Just like pitpass is. :(
You can still make a screen capture and upload it here! :D

[Mark]

Well I'll type it.

The comment made is that they came up with three designs and chose whichever one came out best.

Now I'd expect for most teams you get to choose one design, and if it doesn't work - better luck next year!

[ioan]

Well I'll type it.

The comment made is that they came up with three designs and chose whichever one came out best.

Now I'd expect for most teams you get to choose one design, and if it doesn't work - better luck next year!

None of he other teams has ever had the luxury of having 5 wind tunnels at disposal in order to test 3 different designs in the same time.

I wonder how many engineers did work on these 3 designs. I think the number will be huge (probably the double of what any other F1 team ever used).

Just think about the budget: 500 millions, not USD, €€€! That, using last years USD to € parity, is close to :eek: USD 750 million, while previously Toyota, McLaren and Ferrari were reported around USF 450 millions.
When I think that Renault won back to back WDCs and WCCs on a USD 300 - 350 millions/year budget, and that probably this year's RBR didn't go over USD 300-350 millions either, just shows that Money is where the difference came from for BrawnGP, coupled with a dodgy diffuser design.

[Knock-on]

Let's just pick the facts out of this.

1. Germany's Auto Motor und Sport claims that at times, Honda had 5 wind tunnels and 1/2 billion euro budget.

Hmmmmm.

2. They went with 3 different prototypes before settleing on the final car.

This is not untypical to try different concepts.

3. An actual quote from Wurtz!!!!


The Brawn is the most expensive car with the lowest operating budget ever

Now, you can take this 2 ways.

a) It the most expensive car ever with the lowest operating budget ever.

b) It is the most expensive car to be operated with such a small budget ever.

Either could be true for all I know?

What we do know is that Honda obviously put in a sizeable chunk of money until they announced they were pulling out and then there were a lot of cut backs. However, there are still contracts in place which have to be honoured but this figure of 500,000,000 euros seems a bit far fetched and the article seems to be attributing quotes to Wurtz that are not documented in the article.

[ioan]

Let's just pick the facts out of this.

1. Germany's Auto Motor und Sport claims that at times, Honda had 5 wind tunnels and 1/2 billion euro budget.

Hmmmmm.

2. They went with 3 different prototypes before settleing on the final car.

This is not untypical to try different concepts.

3. An actual quote from Wurtz!!!!



Now, you can take this 2 ways.

a) It the most expensive car ever with the lowest operating budget ever.

b) It is the most expensive car to be operated with such a small budget ever.

Either could be true for all I know?

What we do know is that Honda obviously put in a sizeable chunk of money until they announced they were pulling out and then there were a lot of cut backs. However, there are still contracts in place which have to be honoured but this figure of 500,000,000 euros seems a bit far fetched and the article seems to be attributing quotes to Wurtz that are not documented in the article.

Well all I can tell you is that none of the previous F1 cars did cost USD 750 millions. Now you can make your pick even if it's a biased one.



Let's just pick the facts out of this.

2. They went with 3 different prototypes before settleing on the final car.

This is not untypical to try different concepts.

Putting them all through extensive wind tunnel testing is very atypical. Most designs only arrive to CFD simulation level and are discarded there with only one going forward to be wind tunnel tested, in case the team has access to a wind tunnel, something wasn't the case for FI and STR in the not so distant past.

[Knock-on]

I honestly don't know how much teams actually spend on their F1 projects although there is suggestions as to what individual budgets are.

Can you tell me who claims the Honda budget is 500M euro because I can't see anywhere that Wurz said it???

If we're going to accept heresay as fact, we might as well start accepting the opinions you often come out with as fact :laugh:

It does seem a huge amount of money though even by F1 standards but that's not to say the claim is right or even if it's relevant.

[Mark]

Putting them all through extensive wind tunnel testing is very atypical. Most designs only arrive to CFD simulation level and are discarded there with only one going forward to be wind tunnel tested, in case the team has access to a wind tunnel, something wasn't the case for FI and STR in the not so distant past.

Well all we know is that three designs were wind-tunnel tested. It doesn't say how many designs were rejected at the CFD stage.

It could be that the CFD arrived at three different designs that theoretically could produce the same performance, but the wind tunnel decided the issue.

[Knock-on]

I don't know where all these wind tunnels spring up from. Perhaps they had a sale in Lidl :D

Anyway, the only person that claims Brawn designed and built the car on the back of a fag packet is ioan. Honda obviously dedicated a competitive budget to their F1 project before their decision to withdraw and they have some great people there. Ross's job is to coordinate those efforts and galvanise them into a sucessful racing car.

All in all it's all pretty irrelevant if you ask me.

[race_director]

That's a stupid website that it won't allow you to copy+paste quotes from it!

Switch to opera . u can do all funny stuff with that

[ioan]

I don't know where all these wind tunnels spring up from. Perhaps they had a sale in Lidl :D

What a great contribution to this thread, NOT.
Next time you go to Lidl think about buying a couple too. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Anyway, the only person that claims Brawn designed and built the car on the back of a fag packet is ioan.

You're out of your debt lil' guy.

All I claim is that Brawn couldn't even design a car all alone, unlike what you see to believe while you are dismissing an article quoting a BrawnGP insider. Not to mention that you have no base whatsoever other than your bias. :p :

[Knock-on]

You're out of your debt lil' guy.

All I claim is that Brawn couldn't even design a car all alone, unlike what you see to believe while you are dismissing an article quoting a BrawnGP insider. Not to mention that you have no base whatsoever other than your bias. :p :

That's "depth". Would love to be out of my debt :D


5 wind tunnels and 500 million Euros!

Way over what Toyota, McLaren and Ferrari ever had, and people still think it's Ross Brawn who single single handedly built a wonder!

Actually, you are saying that other people claim that Brawn singlehandedly built the car.

Now, without taking it literally which would obviously be silly, it seems to me that you think some people here don't appreciate that a lot of work and development was put into this car when the team was still Honda.

I don't think this is the case and cannot remember one post where this is implied?

The ex Honda crew are a very talented group of people but the attitude of Honda corporate let them down. The person in charge didn't maximise the potential and made wrong strategic decisions on design direction.

Ross coming in has corrected that and the result is obvious.

But, as I say, what's the point of discussing this claim of budget and wind tunnels. If you're trying to imply they have bought the championship then they would have done it last year as well. I just don't see the point that's trying to be made :confused:

[Firstgear]

If you go by $$$ spent per championship point earned ($/points) it may end up being the cheapest car on the grid.

[markabilly]

You are right Ioan, I should have got back sooner, but i been busy trying to figure out where Arrows left his balls (he is really a good guy and would appreciate all the help he could get)......anyway the budget is higher than some might think, although I think you are being a little over emotional like a spurned lover, due to Brawn having left and went to Honda/brawn or whatever, rather than stayinf where he belonged at Big Blood Red

[ioan]

anyway the budget is higher than some might think, although I think you are being a little over emotional like a spurned lover, due to Brawn having left and went to Honda/brawn or whatever, rather than stayinf where he belonged at Big Blood Red

Not at all.
I believe that the genius behind the car at Ferrari was Byrne and not Brawn.
Brawn was responsible mainly for the strategy decisions but he had one Michael Schumacher who did his part in making them work.
And the final architect was Todt.

I've never been a fan of Brawn, or Todt, but I'm and will remain a fan of both Schumacher, the driver, and Byrne the designer of those gorgeous racing machines.

What I dispute is that decisive factor was more Brawn than the 5 wind tunnels and the USD 750 million.

Look where RBR is without Brawn, 5 wind tunnels and 750 Millions down the drain.

An the difference is made by one great designer and great driver(s).

What Brawn contributed was redefining a hole.

[ioan]

That's "depth". Would love to be out of my debt :D


My bad. :D
Sorry for your debt! :p :




Actually, you are saying that other people claim that Brawn singlehandedly built the car.

Now, without taking it literally which would obviously be silly, it seems to me that you think some people here don't appreciate that a lot of work and development was put into this car when the team was still Honda.

I don't think this is the case and cannot remember one post where this is implied?

I didn't say it was you specifically. And I won't go search through thousands of posts, thread and pages as I do not have the time to do it. But there were such claims and I did give my opinion on this back than.


The ex Honda crew are a very talented group of people but the attitude of Honda corporate let them down. The person in charge didn't maximise the potential and made wrong strategic decisions on design direction.

Ross coming in has corrected that and the result is obvious.

But, as I say, what's the point of discussing this claim of budget and wind tunnels. If you're trying to imply they have bought the championship then they would have done it last year as well. I just don't see the point that's trying to be made :confused:

They never used 5 wind tunnels and never spent USD 750 millions before this, in fact they never outspent the other teams before, so you can't draw that conclusion.

[Rollo]

5 wind tunnels and 500 million Euros!

Way over what Toyota, McLaren and Ferrari ever had, and people still think it's Ross Brawn who single single handedly built a wonder! :rotflmao:

Where do you get this figure from?

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/22/toyota-has-biggest-f1-budget-4456m/

2008 F1 team resources
Including sponsorship, supplier deals, prize money, team owner contributions, tyre provision and supply of customer engines where appropriate.

Toyota: $445.6m
McLaren: $433.3m
Ferrari: $414.9m
Honda: $398.1m ??
Renault: $393.8m
BMW Sauber: $366.8m
Red Bull Racing: $164.7m
Williams: $160.6m
Toro Rosso: $128.2m
Force India: $121.85m
Super Aguri: $45.6m

This must be a pretty neat sort of conjuring trick... how do you pluck €100+ out of the air? Honda announced that they were pulling out of F1 last December citing economic reasons:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/business/worldbusiness/05iht-05honda.18427506.html?_r=1
Honda has struggled badly this year, battered by weaker sales and a stronger yen. November sales, for example, were off 32 percent from a year earlier.
"Honda must protect its core business activities and secure the long term," Fukui said. "A recovery is expected to take some time."
That scarcely sounds like a firm that even has half a billion Euro, let along wanting to throw even more money at it.

Secondly, after scouring the f1fanatic website, I couldn't find out who actually owns it. It can't be terribly credible if they don't even tell us who they are.

[Dave B]

That's a stupid website that it won't allow you to copy+paste quotes from it!
I can copy from it - and PitPass. I never used to be able to, but I installed something for IE and it's hunky dory again. I'll have a root around and see what it is, might be an extension of IE Pro. :)

[Mark]

I can copy from it - and PitPass. I never used to be able to, but I installed something for IE and it's hunky dory again. I'll have a root around and see what it is, might be an extension of IE Pro. :)

No IE on Ubuntu, but if you could find a firefox extension.

[Knock-on]

Where do you get this figure from?

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/22/toyota-has-biggest-f1-budget-4456m/

2008 F1 team resources
Including sponsorship, supplier deals, prize money, team owner contributions, tyre provision and supply of customer engines where appropriate.

Toyota: $445.6m
McLaren: $433.3m
Ferrari: $414.9m
Honda: $398.1m ??
Renault: $393.8m
BMW Sauber: $366.8m
Red Bull Racing: $164.7m
Williams: $160.6m
Toro Rosso: $128.2m
Force India: $121.85m
Super Aguri: $45.6m

This must be a pretty neat sort of conjuring trick... how do you pluck €100+ out of the air? Honda announced that they were pulling out of F1 last December citing economic reasons:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/business/worldbusiness/05iht-05honda.18427506.html?_r=1
Honda has struggled badly this year, battered by weaker sales and a stronger yen. November sales, for example, were off 32 percent from a year earlier.
"Honda must protect its core business activities and secure the long term," Fukui said. "A recovery is expected to take some time."
That scarcely sounds like a firm that even has half a billion Euro, let along wanting to throw even more money at it.

Secondly, after scouring the f1fanatic website, I couldn't find out who actually owns it. It can't be terribly credible if they don't even tell us who they are.

I've given up trying to get him to answer this claim of his Rollo.

Wurz said nothing about 5 wind tunnels and 500m euro.

Wurz DID say they went with 3 different directions in the wind TUNNEL before choosing the final design.

Note: Tunnel and not Tunnels.

As I said, ioan seems to think that wind tunnels come and go like seasons of the year :D

The claim by a site I have never heard of is accredited to a German site called http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/

[ioan]

Where do you get this figure from?

First post of this thread? Just click on the link.



This must be a pretty neat sort of conjuring trick... how do you pluck €100+ out of the air? Honda announced that they were pulling out of F1 last December citing economic reasons:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/business/worldbusiness/05iht-05honda.18427506.html?_r=1
Honda has struggled badly this year, battered by weaker sales and a stronger yen. November sales, for example, were off 32 percent from a year earlier.
"Honda must protect its core business activities and secure the long term," Fukui said. "A recovery is expected to take some time."
That scarcely sounds like a firm that even has half a billion Euro, let along wanting to throw even more money at it.

I suppose that the 2008 F1 budget was decided in 2007 not in December 2008! ;)

[ioan]

I've given up trying to get him to answer this claim of his Rollo.

Wurz said nothing about 5 wind tunnels and 500m euro.

Wurz DID say they went with 3 different directions in the wind TUNNEL before choosing the final design.

Note: Tunnel and not Tunnels.

As I said, ioan seems to think that wind tunnels come and go like seasons of the year :D

The claim by a site I have never heard of is accredited to a German site called http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/

Other than bitching you bring nothing to the table.
You just joke around without any substance to your claims.

FYI Auto Motor und Sport is one of the most reliable automotive related sources. But I suppose that you love being an ignorant, so I'll let you revel in your ignorance.

[Knock-on]

Other than bitching you bring nothing to the table.
You just joke around without any substance to your claims.

FYI Auto Motor und Sport is one of the most reliable automotive related sources. But I suppose that you love being an ignorant, so I'll let you revel in your ignorance.

I don't bitch and I refuse to drag this down to a level of personal insults.

I cannot read German and therefore cannot qualify the claims by the publication. However, we have people here that can and I'm sure they will have a look at the site and give us some background as to where the story originated.

What is apparent is that Wurz has said nothing about 5 wind tunnels and indeed makes a point that they tried 3 different prototypes in the tunnel. i.e. a single tunnel.

He also never made reference in this article to 500m euro.

So, pack in the personal attacks and provide some proof to back up your insistance of these dubious claims :)

[CNR]

http://www.google.com/search?q=2009+Brawn+GP+is+%27most+expensive&rls=com.microsoft:en-au&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

more then just one link now so make up your own mind

[ioan]

I cannot read German and therefore cannot qualify the claims by the publication.

Than learn some German first, Ignoramus.

[ioan]

Thanks for the link thunderbolt ;)

Now reading through the google links centred around the interview with Alex Wurz, I agree it is very difficult to make a decision. A couple of the articles are repeated word for word but there is still that line that prevents this from being fact.

"The Brawn is probably the most expensive car with the lowest operating budget ever," the Austrian admitted
http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14964&Itemid=219

Another article uses the line:

Alexander Wurz, the man who almost became team owner in Formula One a few weeks ago, revealed that the BGP 001 is currently one of the most expensive cars (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/brawn-gp-has-the-most-expensive-car-in-formula-one-8202.html#) on the grid. Although Brawn GP are the lowest budget operations in Formula One this year...
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/brawn-gp-has-the-most-expensive-car-in-formula-one-8202.html

So after all that it seems that in Wurz's opinion, the BGP 001 is the most expensive F1 car ever.... Probably ;)

He probably know more than any of us about how much the BrawnGP car cost as he was their test driver last season, and he is a team insider still now. :rolleyes:

And he said probably because he doesn't know what the other teams spent.
If you take a look the big guys spent around USD 400 millions 'only'. So Wurz is right in his assumption.
Anyway I guess that you will tow Knockie's line even if he's dead wrong and questions publications that he can't even read. :laugh:

BTW the claims that the BrawnGP team has the lowest operating funds this year is a lie.
They get around 150 millions from Honda to keep the team running this season, which is more than Force India ever had.

[ioan]

Theres really no need for that ioan is there? Argue through wit and in good jest... :)

There's a limit to the infatuation that I can accept from people who can't even read, but already question the contents of an article.

Knockie might be a nice guy and all the rest, but he won't accept the truth even when it slaps him in the face, unless it suits his biased views.

[Knock-on]

Than learn some German first, Ignoramus.

Please read my last post. I am not going to lower this thread with personal attacks. I would have thought from your last Holiday that you had learnt some manners but obviously not.

End of subject as far as I'm concerned. Nothing here of any substance and a BS thread.

[Bagwan]

So , this argument is about whether BGP had over twice , or over 3 times what Red Bull had to work with ? Or over 5 times ?
It seems a bit moot .
It's a whack of money no matter how you look at it .

Knock , a reputable publication has said it was 500 euros .
You are angry with Ioan over that ?
Be angry with the paper .


I think Alexander's point was that the thing cost a friggin fortune to build , and they haven't spent a nickel on it since .
The actual numbers are largely irrelevent , but useful to make the point .

To examine whether it was just an exaggeration put forward by either Wurz , himself , or the publication , one might look at how big the exaggeration actually was , as the larger the amount the more obvious it becomes .

At roughly $400million , if the intent was to say it cost $500million , instead of the $750million it equates to , as converted from a Euro , then it seems to be a little less impossible .

[Knock-on]

So , this argument is about whether BGP had over twice , or over 3 times what Red Bull had to work with ? Or over 5 times ?
It seems a bit moot .
It's a whack of money no matter how you look at it .

I agree, what does it really matter even if it's true?


Knock , a reputable publication has said it was 500 euros .
You are angry with Ioan over that ?
Be angry with the paper .

Baggy

I'm not angry about anything.

What I said was there was no credibility provided in the original article. It says that they had 500m euros and 5 wind tunnels according to a german magazine and ioan was trying to claim this was said by Wurz which is obviously untrue.

The German publication may well have reported these claims but as I am not able to read German, because I am ignorant, I cannot veryify where this originated.

However, I am sure if there is any credability, the story will be verified by the English speaking mainstream Motor sites like Autosport.

Personally, I don't care how much it is but just like to have verified facts. I'm a little old fashioned I guess ;)

I think ioan is the one with the insults and personal attacks which is a level I refuse to stoop to.


I think Alexander's point was that the thing cost a friggin fortune to build , and they haven't spent a nickel on it since .
The actual numbers are largely irrelevent , but useful to make the point .

To examine whether it was just an exaggeration put forward by either Wurz , himself , or the publication , one might look at how big the exaggeration actually was , as the larger the amount the more obvious it becomes .

At roughly $400million , if the intent was to say it cost $500million , instead of the $750million it equates to , as converted from a Euro , then it seems to be a little less impossible .

I agree. It doesn't really matter as I've been trying to say all along. Lets call it a coll $$$billion$$$ and 10 wind tunnels and be done with it :D

[ioan]

Please read my last post. I am not going to lower this thread with personal attacks. I would have thought from your last Holiday that you had learnt some manners but obviously not.

End of subject as far as I'm concerned. Nothing here of any substance and a BS thread.

As I said, next time you comment be sure you know what you talk about.

[ioan]

Or else!! :p

He'll remain an ignorant. What else?! :D

[ClarkFan]

Yeah the original article does mention 5 wind tunnels but this is the only related article which claim's this. It may have been taken out of context.

Journalists do seem to migrate to motorsport after failing as gossip reporters.

ClarkFan

[Mark]

Than learn some German first, Ignoramus.

This is an English language forum. Therefore posters cannot be expected to have knowledge of German, or any other language, and why should they?

Cut out the personal insults where you are at it.

[Knock-on]

It would be interesting for someone who reads German to do a search on the site and give us some feedback about how the story originated.

We can't all be ignorant ;)

[Bagwan]

I agree, what does it really matter even if it's true?



Baggy

I'm not angry about anything.

What I said was there was no credibility provided in the original article. It says that they had 500m euros and 5 wind tunnels according to a german magazine and ioan was trying to claim this was said by Wurz which is obviously untrue.

The German publication may well have reported these claims but as I am not able to read German, because I am ignorant, I cannot veryify where this originated.

However, I am sure if there is any credability, the story will be verified by the English speaking mainstream Motor sites like Autosport.

Personally, I don't care how much it is but just like to have verified facts. I'm a little old fashioned I guess ;)

I think ioan is the one with the insults and personal attacks which is a level I refuse to stoop to.



I agree. It doesn't really matter as I've been trying to say all along. Lets call it a coll $$$billion$$$ and 10 wind tunnels and be done with it :D

Don't play the saint here .

It was the German publication that said these things .
James Allen is saying the same things as Ioan in his blog , and relating it to the rumours he had heard up and down the paddock , that the Former Honda car had had the most enormous budget behind it .

There has been refuting of any figures that I have heard , from any source , but perhaps from you and a few others on this board .

You'll notice that often I get involved in your discussions with Ioan .
Of course you're not angry about anything , but you do so love to goad Ioan into an argument .
You both have a lot of good things to say , but I get pretty tired of all the agro .

You are just as much if not more at fault .

Can we end this between you two ?
Please .

[ioan]

This is an English language forum. Therefore posters cannot be expected to have knowledge of German, or any other language, and why should they?

Cut out the personal insults where you are at it.

Posters shouldn't either dismiss sources in other languages just because their lack of knowledge, isn't it?!
And they shouldn't either dispute a point if they can't understand the information showed to them. It's just a question of common sense.

[ioan]

Can we end this between you two ?
Please .

I'll try, but can't promise it will work.

It's reported on this site....

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=334654

But the credibility of that site has to be seriously called into question, eh Knockie?

[Knock-on]

Don't play the saint here .

It was the German publication that said these things .
James Allen is saying the same things as Ioan in his blog , and relating it to the rumours he had heard up and down the paddock , that the Former Honda car had had the most enormous budget behind it .

There has been refuting of any figures that I have heard , from any source , but perhaps from you and a few others on this board .

You'll notice that often I get involved in your discussions with Ioan .
Of course you're not angry about anything , but you do so love to goad Ioan into an argument .
You both have a lot of good things to say , but I get pretty tired of all the agro .

You are just as much if not more at fault .

Can we end this between you two ?
Please .

Can we keep your personal views out of it as well. I don't need someone holding my hand and trying to be some sort of peace broker thank you very much.

Rather than sticking your nose in, you might like to re-read what Allen says. It is practically verbatum what was posted at the beginning of this thread apart from what he acknowledges are jealous rumours.

Personally, I don't give a toss what Brawn or anyone else spent last year. Some teams spend more than others.

However, I have not seen a quote from Wurz saying the team spent 500m euro and used 5 wind tunnels. He makes a quote about it having to be the most expensive car that has been run on such a miniscule budget.

Basically, if they have spent 500m then so what but can we at least be mature and sensible enough to qualify something rather than bandy around heresay and tittle-tattle like a bunch of schoolgirls?

[Knock-on]

It's reported on this site....

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=334654

But the credibility of that site has to be seriously called into question, eh Knockie?

I don't disagree with one word of what Wurz said. I also don't dispute what Auto Motor wrote.

I think it highly likely that the Brawn is the most expensive car to be run on so small a budget.

What that budget is and what the expense of the car was I don't know. Do you?

I also see him mentioning the car went through 3 different directions of development in the wind tunnel but I only see a accreditation to Auto Motor about them using 5 Tunnels where Wurz only mentions one.

[ioan]

It's reported on this site....

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=334654


I like this part:


Wurz, 35, gives Sebastian Vettel "ten out of ten" for dominating last time out at Silverstone, but doubts Red Bull will have it so easily for the remainder of the season.

"I would say that Brawn and Red Bull are at eye-level, and success from now on will depend on the circuits."

IMO, IF, and it's a very big IF, the cars are equal than it will come down to drivers from now on, and sure thing I wouldn't put money neither on the retired guy nor on the curbstone.

[ioan]

I also see him mentioning the car went through 3 different directions of development in the wind tunnel but I only see a accreditation to Auto Motor about them using 5 Tunnels where Wurz only mentions one.

Where does Wurz say it was only one wind tunnel?!
Wurz uses what is called a generic term when he says 'in the wind tunnel'.

[Firstgear]

Personally, I don't give a toss what Brawn or anyone else spent last year. Some teams spend more than others.


Some spending situations would be worth talking about, others wouldn't. Here's four extremes.

1) Spend Loads - Get Great Results

2) Spend Loads - Get Poor Results

3) Spend Squat - Get Great Results

4) Spend Squat - Get Poor Results


Situations 2 & 3 are worth talking about because input doesn't seem to match output (2 = failure and 3 = David beating Goliath)

In Situations 1 & 4, you pretty much get what you paid for. According to the article, Brawn is a Situation 1, so no real story.

The only surprising thing I can glean from the article is Honda's very abrupt change of heart with respect to F1. One minute they're totally committed, the next they're out.

[ioan]

The only surprising thing I can glean from the article is Honda's very abrupt change of heart with respect to F1. One minute they're totally committed, the next they're out.

Image is very important in Japan. they could not continue spending half a billion euros while laying out workers.

[Firstgear]

I like this part:



IMO, IF, and it's a very big IF, the cars are equal than it will come down to drivers from now on, and sure thing I wouldn't put money neither on the retired guy nor on the curbstone.


That part caught my attention as well. Alex's view totally eliminates the driver's input from the equation. Is he saying that the drivers on the two teams are about equal, or is he saying that the machinery in today's F1 is so important that the drivers really don't come into the equation? Being a driver himself, he should have chosen his words more wisely.

[Bagwan]

Can we keep your personal views out of it as well. I don't need someone holding my hand and trying to be some sort of peace broker thank you very much.

Rather than sticking your nose in, you might like to re-read what Allen says. It is practically verbatum what was posted at the beginning of this thread apart from what he acknowledges are jealous rumours.

Personally, I don't give a toss what Brawn or anyone else spent last year. Some teams spend more than others.

However, I have not seen a quote from Wurz saying the team spent 500m euro and used 5 wind tunnels. He makes a quote about it having to be the most expensive car that has been run on such a miniscule budget.

Basically, if they have spent 500m then so what but can we at least be mature and sensible enough to qualify something rather than bandy around heresay and tittle-tattle like a bunch of schoolgirls?

You don't give a toss , but you insist on trying to make the point .
And , then you imply folks aren't sensible or mature .
Then you say they act like schoolgirls .

I've brokered peace before , and you won't stop me from trying again .
If fact , I will predict you will prompt me , rather than stop me .

There is a way to get me to stop , but only you and Ioan can help with that .

[pino]

ioan and knockie we're all very tired of your stupid and childish fight, do whatever is necessary but stop it right now, because I will not tolerate it anymore and I mean it.

[Bagwan]

"The Brawn team is running away with both championships and today I noticed that Alex Wurz, the former Honda test driver, has been talking to Auto Motor und Sport magazine about the car which Honda chose not to race. Now renamed Brawn, Wurz reckons that it is the “most expensive car with the lowest operating budget ever”, based on the assertion that it was developed in five windtunnels with three separate programmes running. I’ve heard rival teams mutter that this is the most expensive car ever made too, but thought that they were probably jealous! Meanwhile one of the designers, Jorg Zander, has left Brawn recently. Zander has moved around a fair bit in recent years between Toyota, BAR, Williams, BMW Sauber and Honda. He lasted a year at Williams, a year at BMW and two and a half years at Honda/Brawn."

That's an exerpt from the blog by Allen .

This line : "I’ve heard rival teams mutter that this is the most expensive car ever made too, but thought that they were probably jealous!"

Knock , this line implies directly that he didn't believe the rumours when he heard them , and is now surprised to hear them confirmed .

[Knock-on]

ioan and knockie we're all very tired of your stupid and childish fight, do whatever is necessary but stop it right now, because I will not tolerate it anymore and I mean it.

Pino

With all due respect, if I have transgressed forum rules then sanction me. I don't really care because the forum, much like F1 in general, is full of fcuking idiots will little to add to the event.

So, please don't tolerate it any more and have a root and branch clear out which in my opinion is what's needed both here and in F1.

I'll even help. I seem to be part of the problem because I won't put up with twunts who troll rubbish on here so I'm off for a little break until you sort out a couple of the idiots.

Have fun. I know I will