Let the Silly Season begin! [Archive] - Page 2

DexDexter

20th August 2009, 09:39

I think parting ways would be beneficial for both McLaren and Kovalainen. HK seems to be a bit softer type of driver, who needs team support to unveil his potential and he can't excel in #2 driver role - like Fisichella. Kova has had only 1 (!) good race so far this season and that's way too few. In the second half of 2007 Heikki actually seemed like quite a competent racer, but the McLaren period has completely destroyed his reputation. Time to seek for a change.

On the other hand McLaren needs a more competitive driver to challenge for WCC in future years. Both RBR and Ferrari have two quite closely-matched top-class drivers and McLaren really can't afford to be any worse. Kubica, Heidfeld, Rosberg - all are available on the driver market and any of them would be a good choice IMO, better than Kova.

Having two competitive drivers is a two-edged sword. If Kovalainen had beaten Hamilton in one more race last year, Massa would be the world champion. At the moment Mclaren have a good harmony in the team, but bring in straight-talking Kubica and perhaps we'll be looking at 2007 all over again. Kubica wouldn't handle driving an old spec car as well as Heikki has (German GP). Heidfeld isn't any better than Heikki, Rosbeg maybe.

Roamy

20th August 2009, 09:57

probably Roseberg is much better than kovi

jens

20th August 2009, 11:02

They have had their chance and far more. Time to go. There was a time when drivers did not hang around and around and around and around!

Oh really?

Both Damon and Graham Hill, Alboreto, Patrese, Arnoux, Boutsen, Jones, the list could go on and on - none of them set the world alight right at the end of their careers.

And in which way are JT, GF and RB "not winners"? There are around 100 race winners of all times, so you reckon only 30-40 of them should have won a GP? I'm afraid you are mixing up the words "champion" and "race winner".

jens

20th August 2009, 11:06

Having two competitive drivers is a two-edged sword. If Kovalainen had beaten Hamilton in one more race last year, Massa would be the world champion. At the moment Mclaren have a good harmony in the team, but bring in straight-talking Kubica and perhaps we'll be looking at 2007 all over again. Kubica wouldn't handle driving an old spec car as well as Heikki has (German GP). Heidfeld isn't any better than Heikki, Rosbeg maybe.

IMO Heidfeld is better than Kovalainen, he is very consistent, barely makes mistakes and is a very good points collector (has been outscored by his team-mate only in 2008) and is capable of capitalizing on opportunities (weather, attrition). And also, Heidi outscored Heikki last year in an inferior car. NH would be an ideal No.2 for McLaren - picks up good points and won't distract the harmony in the team.

jens

20th August 2009, 11:09

Heidfeld is beating Kubica on track and in points this year. I don't follow your logic.

Nah, it looks like he just doesn't like experienced drivers - that's what the logic is about. ;)

ioan

20th August 2009, 11:11

Heidfeld is beating Kubica on track and in points this year. I don't follow your logic.

There's nothing to follow, his only logic is his bias.

DexDexter

20th August 2009, 12:09

IMO Heidfeld is better than Kovalainen, he is very consistent, barely makes mistakes and is a very good points collector (has been outscored by his team-mate only in 2008) and is capable of capitalizing on opportunities (weather, attrition). And also, Heidi outscored Heikki last year in an inferior car. NH would be an ideal No.2 for McLaren - picks up good points and won't distract the harmony in the team.

I don't think Mclaren are looking for a solid point scorer, they are looking for somebody who can really challenge Hamilton. Is it wise, well that's a different matter.

Saint Devote

20th August 2009, 12:19

Oh really?

Both Damon and Graham Hill, Alboreto, Patrese, Arnoux, Boutsen, Jones, the list could go on and on - none of them set the world alight right at the end of their careers.

And in which way are JT, GF and RB "not winners"? There are around 100 race winners of all times, so you reckon only 30-40 of them should have won a GP? I'm afraid you are mixing up the words "champion" and "race winner".

There is difference between champion, finishing first and actually winning a race - ask Jackie Stewart wehn once he gave away his trophy saying that he was embarrassed to have won the race.

Anyway the point was the difference between those drivers that win races and those around for long enough that sooner or later they also will win one or two.

Also, dont mix your eras - f1 today is even vastly different compared to ten years ago.

Button's performance comapred to Barrichello - in between his pmt outbursts Rubens has not exactly been a worthy member of the Brawn team and is now in fourth place in the championship while Jenson is still well ahead, so far ably defending in a car that has had a problem the last 3 grands prix.

Saint Devote

20th August 2009, 12:39

Nah, it looks like he just doesn't like experienced drivers - that's what the logic is about. ;)

Experienced drivers is a code word for drivers that have been around for a long time, become sentimental favorites but their limitations are clear and have been for years.

Mclaren and Renault are pretty good examples these days of moving drivers - example: one day Kovaleinen may become a favorite "experienced" driver in and hang around f1 while drivers with unexplored potential wait, and wait, and wait......

jens

20th August 2009, 12:39

There is difference between champion, finishing first and actually winning a race - ask Jackie Stewart wehn once he gave away his trophy saying that he was embarrassed to have won the race.

Anyway the point was the difference between those drivers that win races and those around for long enough that sooner or later they also will win one or two.

Also, dont mix your eras - f1 today is even vastly different compared to ten years ago.

So why are you comparing different eras by saying that in the past drivers "didn't stay in F1 too long", when they quite obviously did?

And your "race winning" categories are a bit puzzling as well. Was there anything undeserving or "embarrassing" in the way RB, GF or JT have won their races? I remember most of them being well-earned after a strong drive.

jens

20th August 2009, 12:45

Experienced drivers is a code word for drivers that have been around for a long time, become sentimental favorites but their limitations are clear and have been for years.

Mclaren and Renault are pretty good examples these days of moving drivers - example: one day Kovaleinen may become a favorite "experienced" driver in and hang around f1 while drivers with unexplored potential wait, and wait, and wait......

Actually one could say that your attitude is sentimental as well, but in completely opposite direction - towards rookie drivers. Like "Oh dear, the oldies are destroying the F1 dream of those youngsters."

What remains to be clear, is that teams try to hire as good drivers as possible into their teams and if they think "oldies" are good enough or better than youngsters, they prefer them for obvious reasons. I doubt teams keep hiring experienced blokes for the sake of sentimentality.

ArrowsFA1

20th August 2009, 13:09

Experienced drivers is a code word for drivers that have been around for a long time, become sentimental favorites but their limitations are clear and have been for years.
Michael Schumacher is an experienced driver ;)

ioan

20th August 2009, 13:30

Michael Schumacher is an experienced driver ;)

You dare challenge the forum Saint?! ;)

Don't you know that his knowledge is above anything we, mere mortals, can dream of? :D

F1boat

20th August 2009, 15:32

Guys, would you like to see Button vs Lewin in McLaren-Mercedes?

I am evil Homer

20th August 2009, 15:34

Yes....just so Jenson would get his arse handed to him on a plate.

"oh but he's so smooth in his style"....shame that style isn't "quick" in anything other than a 100% optimal car.

ioan

20th August 2009, 15:55

Yes....just so Jenson would get his arse handed to him on a plate.

Exactly.

christophulus

20th August 2009, 17:47

jens

20th August 2009, 22:36

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77802

I think situation regarding McLaren's second seat is starting to become clearer. McLaren hasn't used the option on Kovalainen and after rejecting McLaren's offer two years ago, it looks like Rosberg is now ready to join McLaren for 2010, while so far there have been doubts, whether he wants to join Team LH.

So Hamilton vs Rosberg next year? Unless Williams convinces Rosberg to stay with their superb performances.

ioan

20th August 2009, 22:55

So Hamilton vs Rosberg next year? Unless Williams convinces Rosberg to stay with their superb performances.

What performances?
McLaren already won a race this season while Williams didn't yet make the podium.

keysersoze

21st August 2009, 00:37

William Hunt

21st August 2009, 02:14

I'll have another shot:

1. Jenson Button (Eng) Brawn (-Mercedes)
2. Nick Heidfeld (D) Brawn (-Mercedes)
TD: Bruno Senna (Bra)
3. Mark Webber (Aus) Red Bull (-Renault or -Mercedes)
4. Sebastian Vettel (D) Red Bull (-Renault or -Mercedes)
TD: Daniel Ricciardo (Aus)
5. Fernando Alonso (Esp) Ferrari
6. Felipe Massa (Bra) Ferrari
TD: Luca Badoer (Ita)
TD: Marc Gené (Esp)
7. Jarno Trulli (Ita) Toyota
8. Timo Glock (D) Toyota
TD: Kamui Kobayashi (Jap)
9. Lewis Hamilton (Eng) McLaren (-Mercedes)
10. Nico Rosberg (D) McLaren (-Mercedes)
TD: Paul di Resta (Sco)
11. Kazuki Nakajima (Jap) Williams (-Toyota)
12. Nico Hülkenberg (D) Williams (-Toyota)
TD: Dani Clos (Esp)
14. Robert Kubica (Pol) Renault
15. Romain Grosjean (Fra) Renault
TD: Lucas di Grassi (Bra)
TD: Davide Valsecchi (Ita)
16. Sébastien Buemi (Ch) Torro Rosso (-Ferrari)
17. Jaime Alguersuari (Esp) Torro Rosso (-Ferrari)
TD: Brendon Hartley (N-ZL)
18. Adrian Sutil (D) Force India (-Mercedes)
19. Vitantonio Liuzzi (Ita) Force India (-Mercedes)
TD: Karun Chandhok (Ind)
20. Pedro de la Rosa (Esp) Campos - Dallara (-Cosworth)
21. Vitaly Petrov (Rus) Campos - Dallara (-Cosworth)
TD: Giorgio Pantano (Ita)
TD: Natascha Gachnang (Ch)
22. Alexander Wurz (Aut) USF1 (-Cosworth) or
22. Sébastien Bourdais (Fra) USF1 (-Cosworth)
23. Graham Rahal (USA) USF1 (-Cosworth)
TD: Jonathan Summerton (USA)
24. Heikki Kovalainen (Fin) Manor (-Cosworth) or
24. Takuma Sato (Jap) Manor (-Cosworth)
25. Roberto Merhi (Esp) Manor (-Cosworth)
TD: Adam Carroll (N-Irl)
TD: Esteban Guerrieri (Arg)

other potential entries:
26. Nelson Piquet Jr. (Bra) Sauber - Piquet (-?)
27. Christian Klien (Aut) Sauber - Piquet (-?)
TD: Roldan Rodriguez (Esp)
TD: Alberto Valerio (Bra)
28. Giancarlo Fisichella (Ita) Epsilon Euskadi (-Renault)
29. Adrian Valles (Esp) Epsilon Euskadi (-Renault)
TD: Bertrand Baguette (Bel)
30. Anthony Davidson (Eng) Prodrive (-Mercedes)
31. Gary Paffett (Eng) Prodrive (-Mercedes)
TD: Jules Bianchi (Fra)

Saint Devote

21st August 2009, 03:11

Looks like de la Rosa and Petrov at Campos next year.

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/500987/0/de-la.rosa/piloto/campos/ (Spanish)

Petrov's currently third in GP2, behind Grosjean and Hulkenberg - so the top three GP2 drivers could be in F1 next year!

You forgot the second member of the Petrov entourage, his mother. I think she would get into the car with him of she could.

When did drivers start requiring their parents to be present at races?

Saint Devote

21st August 2009, 03:26

Yes....just so Jenson would get his arse handed to him on a plate.

"oh but he's so smooth in his style"....shame that style isn't "quick" in anything other than a 100% optimal car.

Sometimes I wonder if the Jenson detractors are the same envious bunch that constantly criticized him for his luxurious jetsetting lifestyle a few years ago.

Button has always been good, and just as a bad car made Hamilton look bad this year - despite him driving and trying harder than ever - so Button had a car he could drive and HAS been completely error free and has won as well as scored points to try and defend his lead in the past three races. Unlike his petulant teammate.

Michael Schumacher and Ross Brawn when asked have mentioned that they regard Button highly.

The last time Jenson had a reasonable car was the Williams in his first year and could barely get started when they replaced him with Montoya.

Since then it has not been that easy - but Button showed what he could do when Dave Richards managed BAR. It was in 2004 that he finished 3rd in the championship behind the best cars on the grid - the 2 Ferraris - behind him being Alonso.

Should Button win the championship this year I hope all his detractors are bothered beyond distraction by it!

Saint Devote

21st August 2009, 03:34

Guys, would you like to see Button vs Lewin in McLaren-Mercedes?

I think it would be great to see these two top line drivers together - but for any driver alongside Hamilton at Mclaren there is a disadvantage simply because Mclaren is now Lewis' team as it was Hakinnen's and Senna's and so on. Even though Dennis is gone.

I think it would be even better if it was Hamilton versus Button in an equal strength Brawn and Mclaren.

Valve Bounce

21st August 2009, 04:49

Guys, would you like to see Button vs Lewin in McLaren-Mercedes?

I would have to say "NO!"

Well, I do remember one famous quote from Ron Dennis that comes to mind: "Yes! but we were racing Alonso!"

Bunsen is better than most of his detractors give him credit for. Even if he wins the WDC this year, there will be a mile high pile of excuses from them. That's how the cookie crumbles. Bunsen will just have to learn how to cry all the way to the bank.

Valve Bounce

21st August 2009, 05:07

Heidfeld is beating Kubica on track and in points this year. I don't follow your logic.

Mr Logic has gone on holidays, unfortunately. :p :

Valve Bounce

21st August 2009, 05:09

Valve Bounce

21st August 2009, 05:14

You forgot the second member of the Petrov entourage, his mother. I think she would get into the car with him of she could.

When did drivers start requiring their parents to be present at races?

Ask Anthony!

Roamy

21st August 2009, 08:16

Mr Logic has gone on holidays, unfortunately. :p :

you have no logic betting on the cheater against me.

DexDexter

21st August 2009, 08:53

I would have to say "NO!"

Well, I do remember one famous quote from Ron Dennis that comes to mind: "Yes! but we were racing Alonso!"
.

Why do people always remember that line? The fact is Alonso was matched by a rookie in an equal car. If Hamilton and Bunsen were team mates, Hamilton would destroy Bunsen.

jens

21st August 2009, 10:43

if Nico is headed to McLaren--and I hope he is--who gets paired at Williams?

Nakajima and Hulkenberg?
Hulkenberg and Heifeld?
Hulkenberg and Barrichello?
Nakajima and Heidfeld?
Kovalainen and Hulkenberg?

I guess Heidfeld-Hülkenberg is the most likely option. In a recent interview for Autosport Nick seemed optimistic about 2010 prospects and I think he may have talks with Williams, Brawn and maybe even Toyota. And I would be quite surprised if The Hulk won't be on the grid next year. Heidfeld had a good season in Williams in 2005 and IIRC they would have liked to keep him.

My personal guess about 2010 line-ups:
BGP: Button & Senna (!)
RBR: Webber & Vettel
FER: Alonso & Massa
TOY: Trulli & Glock
McL: Hamilton & Rosberg
WIL: Heidfeld & Hülkenberg
REN: Kubica & Grosjean
STR: Buemi & Alguersuari
FOR: Sutil & Liuzzi

ioan

21st August 2009, 10:47

Sometimes I wonder if the Jenson detractors are the same envious bunch that constantly criticized him for his luxurious jetsetting lifestyle a few years ago.

I wonder where you were a few years ago as I'm very sure I didn't see you around here.
So do us a favor, stop talking BS about people you don't know.

Valve Bounce

21st August 2009, 11:16

Why do people always remember that line? The fact is Alonso was matched by a rookie in an equal car. If Hamilton and Bunsen were team mates, Hamilton would destroy Bunsen.

The point being that they were both in the same team - which indicated that Ron Dennis was clearly favoring Lewis and wanted him to win.

That's why.

Valve Bounce

21st August 2009, 11:18

And Felipe, Jenson, and Nico... :p

Yeah! but Anthony Hamilton was featured most on the telly.

Ranger

21st August 2009, 14:33

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh says his outfit is happy to hold back on a decision about its 2010 driver line-up because he believes the market will be blown wide open once Fernando Alonso's move to Ferrari is confirmed.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77817

Given McLaren's ability to get Ferrari information ( :bomb: :p : ) I wouldn't doubt this is true.

ioan

21st August 2009, 14:38

:eek: Now that is very interesting!

jens

21st August 2009, 17:45

Well, for insiders Alonso's move to Ferrari has been clear for some time already... so nothing interesting really, business as usual. ;)

keysersoze

21st August 2009, 19:41

Just read on F1 live that Fisi is rumored to be Ferrari's primary test driver next year? Oh dear. :(

ioan

21st August 2009, 21:32

Just read on F1 live that Fisi is rumored to be Ferrari's primary test driver next year? Oh dear. :(

The positive side of it is that finally Ferrari will have a worthy 3rd race driver.

Valve Bounce

22nd August 2009, 03:47

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77817

Given McLaren's ability to get Ferrari information ( :bomb: :p : ) I wouldn't doubt this is true.

Those emails just keep coming. :eek:

Tazio

22nd August 2009, 07:14

Well, for insiders Alonso's move to Ferrari has been clear for some time already... so nothing interesting really, business as usual. ;) I understand Flavio has joined a 12 step program
Alonso-non :p :

Ranger

22nd August 2009, 13:11

http://www.f1times.co.uk/toyota-to-part-with-trulli,-but-keep-glock-359.html

A report of the German news agency SID said that while the Japanese team is likely to retain Timo Glock, its relationship with 35-year-old Trulli is near the end.

"We have an option on Timo. It is very probable that we will take it up, however we will separate with Jarno Trulli," the Briton Howett is quoted as saying in the German language report.

He praised Glock, 27, as "very, very good" in the races but said he must work on his qualifying form. "We will do everything to help him," Howett said.

As for Trulli, who is Toyota's top points scorer in 2009, Howett explained: "We have spoken with him, however up to now we have reached no agreement."

To toss out your best driver would be pretty dumb.

ioan

22nd August 2009, 13:12

http://www.f1times.co.uk/toyota-to-part-with-trulli,-but-keep-glock-359.html

To toss out your best driver would be pretty dumb.

Sure it would be, but it looks to me like they are keeping their best driver.

Ranger

22nd August 2009, 13:23

Sure it would be, but it looks to me like they are keeping their best driver.

How?

Trulli has outqualified Glock 8-2.
Trulli has 22.5 points, Glock has 16.
Jarno and Timo have both finished ahead of each other 4 times when they both finished.

Jarno has clearly been better than Timo this year.

ioan

22nd August 2009, 13:50

How?

Trulli has outqualified Glock 8-2.
Trulli has 22.5 points, Glock has 16.
Jarno and Timo have both finished ahead of each other 4 times when they both finished.

Jarno has clearly been better than Timo this year.

Jarno is not going to get any better and his race craft isn't there.
Also I believe Toyota know better than us which one is the better driver.

jens

22nd August 2009, 15:33

Huh? Jarno's racecraft is very good, especially when it comes to forming a train and blocking. :p : ;)

Anyway, kinda sad for Jarno. He has dedicated the second half of his career to building up the Toyota team, but they have never delivered him a top car as a reward.

But in the light of today's qualifying, maybe it's good that Trulli leaves, because I have had really enough of seeing him struggling in this team all the time and it would be interesting to see him taking a new challenge. I'm not sure if any other F1 teams would be interested in Jarno, but we'll see. :) Hoping that maybe a vacancy might open at either Williams or Renault, depending how the driver market works out.

ioan

22nd August 2009, 15:48

Huh? Jarno's racecraft is very good, especially when it comes to forming a train and blocking. :p : ;)

I still remember his performance in this years Chinese GP! :s

ShiftingGears

22nd August 2009, 15:53

Sure it would be, but it looks to me like they are keeping their best driver.

Nothing suggests that Glock is better. If they were the same age Glock would be the one out the door.

Although, on the positive side for Trulli, he might go to a team that isn't so mediocre.

jens

22nd August 2009, 15:57

I still remember his performance in this years Chinese GP! :s

Yes, coping with an unsuitable setup (in this case dry setup at CHN GP) in difficult conditions is his biggest weakness...

However, I suppose Jarno can't be completely hopeless in the wet though, especially considering how he achieved the very first podium in his career - at Nürburgring in 1999 in a race held in very changeable conditions... and the way he was defending against faster Stewart of Barrichello in the end must be one of the highlights of his career. I liked his wet weather drives in 2008 as well - points in Britain, could have been points at Monza without an unscheduled stop, and was defending well his P2 during the first stint in Brazil and keeping the pace of Massa.

ioan

22nd August 2009, 16:00

Yes, coping with an unsuitable setup (in this case dry setup at CHN GP) in difficult conditions is his biggest weakness...

He was not only slow, he was also driving like a butthead and managed to get on top of Kubica's BMW! :s

jens

22nd August 2009, 16:16

He was not only slow, he was also driving like a butthead and managed to get on top of Kubica's BMW! :s

Eh? I remember Kubica driving over Trulli's car in the braking area.

F1boat

22nd August 2009, 19:51

Also I believe Toyota know better than us which one is the better driver.

We thought the same about Ferrari and looked where we ended lol

ioan

22nd August 2009, 19:57

We thought the same about Ferrari and looked where we ended lol

Maybe you thought that. To me it was obvious that Ferrari were clueless the day they nominated Badoer.

jens

24th August 2009, 21:25

Reading GPWeek.com, I would write about one more random rumour here.

Although Toyota's future participation is unclear (will be decided in late Autumn by Tokyo bosses), F1 team is trying to hire Button, which is why they have decided to get rid of Trulli. Interestingly Button's and Brawn's co-operation in the future hasn't been confirmed yet, although it is considered to be highly likely. But the problematic issue here is that BGP's financial future is still unclear and it's doubtful the team can maintain its high performance level next season.

Saint Devote

25th August 2009, 13:04

Ferrari I think knew exactly what they were doing - placing Schumacher or their top test driver in the car was an ideal opportunity considering that their other race driver could not race.

Testing anytime is at a premium now. Stupid rules.

Bezza

25th August 2009, 13:53

Ranger

25th August 2009, 14:20

F1boat

25th August 2009, 14:48

Then if they dump Trulli then they should dump Glock too, as he is worse than Jarno.

I agree.

DexDexter

25th August 2009, 16:49

I agree.

It's one thing to drop Trulli but who is going to qualify the car as well as him? Nobody who is avaílable. They should drop Glock instead and try to get someone who drives well at every race, not just sometimes. I hear Kovy could be one possibility but if paired with Trulli they would form a very interesting pair, then we would have two Toyota trains instead of one. :rolleyes:

jens

25th August 2009, 18:46

About time Trulli was shipped out to be honest, he was consistently been a driver who can't keep his speed for an entire race. Great qualifier indeed, but the race takes part the day after, mate.

Bring in somebody new and we might see how good that Toyota really is. They have persevered with him for too long. When they dumped Ralf they should have dumped Trulli too.

Too harsh, mate. Why should they have dumped Trulli after 2007? IMO he had a fantastic season in 2008 and was clearly one of the Top10 drivers that year. His race performances were good in the beginning of 2009 too (Australia, Malaysia, Bahrain, Turkey), but after that Toyota's form has had a serious dip.

Trulli's main problem is that he hasn't had a highly rated team-mate for a long time. Nobody cares if he beats Ralf or Timo (both underrated probably) or not. Last time he had highly rated team-mates (Alonso, Button, also Frentzen), he showed well against them.

ioan

25th August 2009, 20:49

Bring in somebody new and we might see how good that Toyota really is. They have persevered with him for too long. When they dumped Ralf they should have dumped Trulli too.

I have to agree.
IMO Trulli is a great qualifier, but when it came to racing Ralf was better than him, so if Ralf was shown the door I don't understand why they kept Trulli.

jens

26th August 2009, 16:02

I have to agree.
IMO Trulli is a great qualifier, but when it came to racing Ralf was better than him, so if Ralf was shown the door I don't understand why they kept Trulli.

Evidence doesn't quite suggest that. Normally there were a couple of races per season, where Ralf was faster than Jarno in the race, also he was usually faster in the wet, but that's about it. However, there were also GP's, where Ralf was nowhere all weekend and Jarno had a clear measure of him.

ioan

26th August 2009, 16:50

Evidence doesn't quite suggest that. Normally there were a couple of races per season, where Ralf was faster than Jarno in the race, also he was usually faster in the wet, but that's about it. However, there were also GP's, where Ralf was nowhere all weekend and Jarno had a clear measure of him.

What evidence?
Here's mine. Team mates 2005 to 2007.
2005: Ralf 45 - 43 Jarno
2006: Ralf 20 - 15 Jarno
2007: Ralf 5 - 8 Jarno
Looks to me that one of them was better than the other for 2 years out of 3. ;)

Overall they were pretty much equal, with Jarno the better qualifier and Ralf the better racer, that's why I say they should have been both shown the door at the same time.

jens

26th August 2009, 17:05

My thoughts are based on race-by-race performance, not cold points.

And if you think both should have shown the door, then who should Toyota have hired alongside Glock? I remember rumours linking Kovalainen to Toyota drive in late '07, but he ended up in McLaren. Other options were probably worse than him. Toyota kept Trulli over Ralf, because he seemed more motivated and was more of a team player.

Roamy

26th August 2009, 17:18

for someone with the amount of money that Toyota has. They have lost their way !! Car looks like crap and they are uncertain about their drivers. This team started with a idiot at the helm in Koln. Not a lot has changed.

ioan

26th August 2009, 17:31

ioan

26th August 2009, 17:33

Toyota kept Trulli over Ralf, because he seemed more motivated and was more of a team player.

All the wrong reasons.
A young driver would have been much more motivated and there are (were) plenty of them around.

jens

26th August 2009, 17:42

All the wrong reasons.
A young driver would have been much more motivated and there are (were) plenty of them around.

Plenty of young drivers, who would have been worse, right? As I said, Toyota didn't get Kovalainen and his McLaren stint so far hasn't suggested he should have been preferred over Trulli. And who were the other random young drivers you are talking about? Toyota got the best rookie for 2008 they could possibly get at that time - a fresh GP2 champion. And he has yet to prove superiority over Trulli. Other rookies would have been worse than him.

woody2goody

26th August 2009, 18:53

IMO Glock's done very well. It's easy to forget he's still really in his second full season of F1.

Yeah he goes missing in the races sometimes, but fastest lap in the last race definitely shows he can cut it.

Despite the front wing change and running into Grosjean he must have drove pretty well to be only about a minute and 20 behind at the end.

DexDexter

26th August 2009, 19:01

IMO Glock's done very well. It's easy to forget he's still really in his second full season of F1.

Yeah he goes missing in the races sometimes, but fastest lap in the last race definitely shows he can cut it.

Despite the front wing change and running into Grosjean he must have drove pretty well to be only about a minute and 20 behind at the end.

I disagree, Glock has shown flashes of speed but Trulli's generally been faster. Being beaten by Trulli is not doing well, even if Trulli is IMO a bit underrated.

jens

26th August 2009, 19:32

IMO Glock's done very well. It's easy to forget he's still really in his second full season of F1.

Yeah he goes missing in the races sometimes, but fastest lap in the last race definitely shows he can cut it.

I would say it's the opposite, he goes missing in qualifyings. :p : Interesting that Glock is actually quite a consistent driver 'on his level'. His race pace is usually decent and in 2009 so far he has lacked race pace as such only in Bahrain. However, qualis often destroy his chances of a great result. I know it's not easy against Jarno in qualifying, but at times he is too far behind.

Anyway, considering that Toyota hasn't used option to extend Glock's contract yet (although they have intended to do it), it is fuelling more speculation that Toyota might leave F1 at the end of the season. So we could potentially add Glock to the driver market too (surely he has been looking for alternative options if he knows Toyota's future is shaky - at least interview for Autosport.com seems to indicate that), which is already quite crowded. :)

ioan

26th August 2009, 19:46

Plenty of young drivers, who would have been worse, right?

And plenty of them would have been better, right? :)

jens

26th August 2009, 22:05

And plenty of them would have been better, right? :)

Instead of going circles, would you please name those "better" drivers, who were available and would have wanted to go to Toyota?

ioan

26th August 2009, 22:20

Instead of going circles, would you please name those "better" drivers, who were available and would have wanted to go to Toyota?

Why don't you start naming those 'worse' drivers?
As far as I can see since 2007 Heikki has better stats than Trulli and IMO is aas good a driver as Jarno is, not to mention his much younger.

jens

26th August 2009, 22:28

Why don't you start naming those 'worse' drivers?
As far as I can see since 2007 Heikki has better stats than Trulli and IMO is aas good a driver as Jarno is, not to mention his much younger.

Funny that you answer to a question with a question. :p : Worse? Naming all of them would take way too much time. :p : Nakajima? Piquet? Senna? Di Grassi? Zuber? Bah...

And IMO Jarno is better than Heikki. Both may have some similar traits (stronger in qualifying trim), but Jarno performs in a bit of a higher level in both areas. Heikki isn't really rated as one of the very best qualifiers like Jarno and over the last two seasons Jarno has had more highly competitive race performances as well.

Sonic

26th August 2009, 22:50

ioan

26th August 2009, 22:59

Funny that you answer to a question with a question. :p : Worse? Naming all of them would take way too much time. :p : Nakajima? Piquet? Senna? Di Grassi? Zuber? Bah...

You started it, so why do you find it funny?!

And IMO Jarno is better than Heikki. Both may have some similar traits (stronger in qualifying trim), but Jarno performs in a bit of a higher level in both areas. Heikki isn't really rated as one of the very best qualifiers like Jarno and over the last two seasons Jarno has had more highly competitive race performances as well.

Performance is measured by results, and Heikki's are better than Jarno's. Subjectivity is just for the fans and I'm not a fan of either.

jens

26th August 2009, 23:05

You started it, so why do you find it funny?!

Performance is measured by results, and Heikki's are better than Jarno's. Subjectivity is just for the fans and I'm not a fan of either.

I started what? It was you and another fella, who said that Trulli should have been sacked after 2007. I simply opposed. ;)

As for results, then one guy has had the opportunity to drive a McLaren, other one a Toyota - is there anything to compare?

Why have F1 teams kept Trulli in F1 for 12 years if he is as bad as you seem to think?

jens

26th August 2009, 23:22

Moving away from the "Toyota thread" for a second. Looks like Kubica is closing in on a Renault seat;

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78008

So if we get that confirmed how does that change our predicted team line ups for 2010?

Doesn't change much I think, because Kubica to Renault has been rated as the most likely scenario for some time.
But I will give a new guess :p :

Brawn-Mercedes: BUT - BAR (Ross has recently hinted that he is intending to keep both drivers)
Red Bull-Mercedes: WEB - VET
McLaren-Mercedes: HAM - ROS
Ferrari: ALO - MAS (test driver: Fisi :p : )
Williams-Renault: HEI - HÜL
Renault: KUB - GRO
STR-Ferrari: BUE - ALG
Force India-Mercedes: SUT - LIU
No Toyota and at least one of Trulli/Glock/Kovalainen may end in Hinwil team and who will be the second driver, is anyone's guess.

The tricky one here could be, whether Williams really prefers Heidfeld or would they take someone in that lastly mentioned trio into their team. And although Liuzzi has been linked to FI's race drive for some time, then the withdrawal of various teams and more quality drivers on the market may convince Mallya to look elsewhere.

----

Regarding Kubica and Rosberg, then it's interesting that both are in quite a similar situation actually. Both are 24 years old, obviously very fast, but at the same time haven't made a decisive breakthrough in F1 - one of them has got a lucky win so far, other one hasn't got even that. But now it's time to start seeking ways, how not only to possess "theoretical potential", but also back it up with serious results and become a true great of F1. Considering their youth, they still have time to actually make multiple career decisions before reaching the top (for instance it has taken almost 10 years for Button to become a WDC leader). But on the other hand, nobody knows, in which state might F1 be in 3-4 years' time - new aces may have joined F1 and the stock of NR/RK may have fallen.

Now the question is, in which ways to achieve that breakthrough and become a major player of F1 in the future. As far as I am concerned, neither driver has an "ideal" option. Among so-called top teams RBR and Ferrari are filled. There is a potentially vacant seat at McLaren, where a top car may not be guaranteed, but is highly possible. But then again facing Hamilton in a team-mate battle and getting beaten by him could destroy driver's reputation. Then there are so-called second-tier teams like Renault, Williams and Toyota - in all of them team-mate battle may not be that intense, but joining such team is a gamble and a great car is far from certain. I'm not sure, where to put Brawn - they might drop to this group soon too.

ioan

26th August 2009, 23:27

No Toyota and at least one of Trulli/Glock/Kovalainen may end in Hinwil team and who will be the second driver, is anyone's guess.

Don't know who will be the 2nd driver but the 1st one, IMO, will be Heidfeld.

DexDexter

27th August 2009, 18:54

Alonso/Ferrari situation seems to be in the news again. Kimi told in an interview that he wants to drive in F1 next year and didn't complete rule out driving for some other team. He again said that he has a contract with Ferrari but could easily find another team if he had to.

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2009/08/941101

Sonic

27th August 2009, 22:44

More fuel to the Nico/McLaren rumor mill;

Q. If you have a competitive car but would be a number two driver – would you accept that?
NR: Yes, you just have to work hard to become a team leader soon.

From the horses mouth as it were.

ioan

28th August 2009, 00:04

Lewis will not appreciate that comment! :D

Saint Devote

28th August 2009, 00:50

If Rosberg thinks that he will best Hamilton he is being delusional.

Exactly who here really believes that Rosberg will be able to beat Hamilton and take over the number 1 position?

Just look how in his debut season went head to head with Alonso and equalled Alonso - consecutive world champion and a driver that even the great Schumacher could not beat for the title in 2006.

ioan

28th August 2009, 00:58

Ranger

28th August 2009, 01:24

Same old rubbish.

But still... Hamilton is much better than Rosberg.

ioan

28th August 2009, 01:35

But still... Hamilton is much better than Rosberg.

Until we see them in the very same F1 car we can't draw this conclusion.

Saint Devote

28th August 2009, 04:01

Then if they dump Trulli then they should dump Glock too, as he is worse than Jarno.

Absolutely - drop them both. But then which driver who is capable and wants to win would go to Toyota anyway.

The team itself is a problem. Howett and Vasselon are like corporate robots because that is how the idiots in Tokyo want it. They had their chance with Gascoyne but he offended the hierarchy's sensibilities - you know how the Japanese corporate structure is just so full of BS!

Toyota will not win even if they waste their money for another 10 years.

keysersoze

28th August 2009, 04:06

Absolutely - drop them both.

You sure do talk a great deal about firing drivers.

Saint Devote

28th August 2009, 04:11

Until we see them in the very same F1 car we can't draw this conclusion.

You are serious are'nt you?
You really doubt that Hamilton will demolish Rosberg.

I refer you to the Alonso experience at Mclaren. Alonso I am sure even you agree is better than Rosberg and Hamilton in an equal car in his FIRST ever year almost presented Alonso with his head.

Do not make the mistake of underestimating dear Lewis.

Alonso kicked your beloved Schumacher straight into touch - if I may use a rugby analogy - even with a competitive car and it wore him out and into retirement.

Rosberg is good but he not in the same league as Alonso, Button or Hamilton or Raikonnen.

Saint Devote

28th August 2009, 04:19

You sure do talk a great deal about firing drivers.

Two seasons is more than enough for any driver to prove their worth.

And my approach is no different from that of Briatore and Mclaren.

If drivers want to race for enjoyment then there are plenty of paying drives around for ex-f1 drivers.

But f1 is about finding the best in the world. You have your chance, you fail, you are out!

This weekend sees Grojean compete on a circuit he knows well. At Valencia he was as bad as Piquet.

This weekend there is no excuse. If you compare his performance to Alguersari's then he has to up his game otherwise I would not be surprised if Briatore either changes him for 2010 or signs him for one more season only.

Abu Dahbi is likely to see Seb Loeb in teh Toro Rosso - Mclaren should put Alguersari in the Mclaren for the last race or Ferrari should put him in their car for the last race.

Saint Devote

28th August 2009, 04:27

Same old rubbish.

Same old cranky person that you are.

No wonder you have a gazillion posts - you say nothing other than criticize and insult others here. And the moderators allow you to get away with it.

What is it? You live in a cold country?

callum122

28th August 2009, 05:19

Rosberg is good but he not in the same league as Alonso, Button or Hamilton or Raikonnen.

You're joking. Putting Button in the same league as Raikonnen, Hamilton and Alonso. Talk some sense.

rusha84

28th August 2009, 06:41

Rumours are strife that we wouldn't be seeing Kimi with Ferrari next season...

gloomyDAY

28th August 2009, 06:48

You're joking. Putting Button in the same league as Raikonnen, Hamilton and Alonso. Talk some sense.Ahhh hahahahahahhaa!

woody2goody

28th August 2009, 07:10

You're joking. Putting Button in the same league as Raikonnen, Hamilton and Alonso. Talk some sense.

Well if you're not putting Button in there, then really Kimi shouldn't be there to say he's been disinterested for half his career.

To be honest though I'll agree with you, because Hamilton, Alonso and maybe Massa are the only elite drivers in F1 really.

Button is in a group (IMO), with Kimi, Heidfeld, Webber, Vettel, Barrichello, Fisi, Kubica and Trulli. Jenson is probably the best overall driver in that group.

gloomyDAY

28th August 2009, 07:21

I believe that Jenson Button is currently the best driver in F1, period.
He is a smooth driver, has a nice beard, and generally friendly.
Teams should just start throwing themselves at his feet!

If you don't believe me then just look at the points.

:crazy:

gloomyDAY

28th August 2009, 07:24

For some reason Bunsen's beard reminds me of Cartman's.

Button
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00012/jenson_button_f1_for_12099a.jpg

Cartman
http://radprofile.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/img_36.gif

Tazio

28th August 2009, 07:32

Woodeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee e e e, coming into this peculiar season JB had one GP win :uhoh:
KR 17
This season he has 6!
Perhaps Lewis loaned his balls to Jens' for the first half of the season ;)

ioan

28th August 2009, 10:43

You are serious are'nt you?
You really doubt that Hamilton will demolish Rosberg.

I refer you to the Alonso experience at Mclaren. Alonso I am sure even you agree is better than Rosberg and Hamilton in an equal car in his FIRST ever year almost presented Alonso with his head.

Do not make the mistake of underestimating dear Lewis.

Alonso kicked your beloved Schumacher straight into touch - if I may use a rugby analogy - even with a competitive car and it wore him out and into retirement.

Rosberg is good but he not in the same league as Alonso, Button or Hamilton or Raikonnen.

More rubbish from you. :D
But don't stop, keep it coming, it makes for good laughs when I read your posts! :rotflmao:

I am evil Homer

28th August 2009, 11:05

IT was such a good post until he put Button in with Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi!! ;)

Knock-on

28th August 2009, 11:24

Well if you're not putting Button in there, then really Kimi shouldn't be there to say he's been disinterested for half his career.

To be honest though I'll agree with you, because Hamilton, Alonso and maybe Massa are the only elite drivers in F1 really.

Button is in a group (IMO), with Kimi, Heidfeld, Webber, Vettel, Barrichello, Fisi, Kubica and Trulli. Jenson is probably the best overall driver in that group.

IMHO there are 2 drivers that stand out above the rest. Fred and Lewis.

As much as I like Jenson, he is not quite in their calibre. He can be but is missing what Simon Cowell would call the X factor. Perhaps this year will see it emerge.

Of the others, Kimi just isn't all there some times, Massa needs a bit more time, Vettel shows great promise and I'm sure will challenge those 2 soon, Rubens spent too long in the wings, Fisi and Trulli - no and Nick is a nice bloke but welllll....

The one I would like to chuck into the mix is Sutil. If he can avoid getting punted off the road by Ferrari's then people would be singing his praises for the results he would have had in the FI. Can't wait to see him in a decent car.

ioan

28th August 2009, 11:39

The one I would like to chuck into the mix is Sutil. If he can avoid getting punted off the road by Ferrari's then people would be singing his praises for the results he would have had in the FI. Can't wait to see him in a decent car.

No chance, they went after him and got him even in parc ferme! :D

Knock-on

28th August 2009, 11:42

No chance, they went after him and got him even in parc ferme! :D

PML. But they had to wait for him to stop before poor old Luca could catch up with him :laugh:

DexDexter

28th August 2009, 12:10

Absolutely - drop them both. But then which driver who is capable and wants to win would go to Toyota anyway.

The team itself is a problem. Howett and Vasselon are like corporate robots because that is how the idiots in Tokyo want it. They had their chance with Gascoyne but he offended the hierarchy's sensibilities - you know how the Japanese corporate structure is just so full of BS!

Toyota will not win even if they waste their money for another 10 years.

Toyota will not win until they change their design staff. We have seen what the current people are capable of designing: a car that can be fast but lacks consistency and is nowhere on certain circuits. It happens every year :confused:

Well if you're not putting Button in there, then really Kimi shouldn't be there to say he's been disinterested for half his career.
.

I don't want to get into this but me and about 3 out of 5 Finns seem disinterested to you :) . Look at the statistics and you'll realise that Button is not in the same company.

DexDexter

28th August 2009, 12:12

Well if you're not putting Button in there, then really Kimi shouldn't be there to say he's been disinterested for half his career.
.

I don't want to get into this but me and about 3 out of 5 Finns seem disinterested to you :) . Look at the statistics and you'll realise that Button is not in the same company.

Garry Walker

28th August 2009, 13:56

ioan

28th August 2009, 14:11

3)Kimi in the same group as Fisi and Trulli and similar drivers? Thank god you wont be posting for a month here soon!!!

:D

jens

28th August 2009, 19:00

Two seasons is more than enough for any driver to prove their worth.

And my approach is no different from that of Briatore and Mclaren.

If drivers want to race for enjoyment then there are plenty of paying drives around for ex-f1 drivers.

But f1 is about finding the best in the world. You have your chance, you fail, you are out!

I would say the opposite. If anything, drivers like Trulli and Heidfeld have not got a proper chance yet. :D If drivers like Coulthard, Barrichello, Fisichella, Kovalainen, etc, have got drives in championship winning cars, some even on "countless" occasions, then those two surely deserve a shot as well. And considering Button and Webber have finally got their chance in '09 as well, it's sad to see Jarno and Nick always missing out.

As for Glock, I think he hasn't said his last word in F1 yet...

jens

28th August 2009, 19:05

Until we see them in the very same F1 car we can't draw this conclusion.

Regarding Hamilton vs Rosberg, then I have to say Rosberg's 2009 season reminds me a bit of Button - very consistent, smooth, but rarely 'exceptional'. I hope and think that Nico will be closer to Lewis than Heikki has managed, but I'd still expect Hamilton to end up on top. And besides this, Rosberg has one clear weakness as well - wet weather racing.

woody2goody

28th August 2009, 19:29

I don't want to get into this but me and about 3 out of 5 Finns seem disinterested to you :) . Look at the statistics and you'll realise that Button is not in the same company.

Ok so Taz said Kimi had 17 wins before this season. Ok. Kimi has had 9 seasons since 2002 in either a Ferrari or McLaren, and in all of them he's had a chance at winning races. And he's managed 17 wins, in total, and IMO lucked into his championship which Fernando and Lewis lost between them.

Kimi's chance was in 2005, when he truly was brilliant. Anyway, this is only the 3rd season in his career where Button has even had a shot at winning a race, and he has won 6 of them in a car that hasn't always been the best, apart from the first two races, Monaco and Turkey.

Of course the statistics say that Kimi is better, but Jenson's had cars not capable of winning, in 2000, 01, 02, 03, 05, 07 and 08.

And as for Finns, why would I have anything against them? I like Kovy, and Finnish music, and Finnish hockey players, football players, etc, and Finland is a very nice country.

Oh and Garry, Kimi's only been interested since Massa's been injured. He's stepped up his game because he's worried about his job. Ice cream anyone?

And why shouldn't Fisi and Trulli be put in the same group as Kimi? Currently, disregarding their past performances, I rate Fisi and Trulli as well as Kimi. If you'd have asked me either in 2005 or at the start of '07 I'd have put Kimi in with Alonso.

Trulli and Fisi are both Grand Prix winners, they have multiple pole positions to their names and both have over 200 starts.

jens

28th August 2009, 19:40

Oh and Garry, Kimi's only been interested since Massa's been injured. He's stepped up his game because he's worried about his job. Ice cream anyone?

???? Was this a joke? :)
So the only races this year, where Kimi has "been motivated", are Monaco, Hungary and Valencia? :p : It makes no sense at all. And last year KR was motivated only in the beginning of the season, but after getting a healthy championship lead he got bored of dominating, lost motivation and as a result dropped backwards?

If someone else has a bad weekend, it is said that they were doing their best, just didn't happen to be their day. Why can't Kimi have off-days no matter how hard he tries? He is a human, after all.

rusha84

29th August 2009, 07:33

You're joking. Putting Button in the same league as Raikonnen, Hamilton and Alonso. Talk some sense.

Same league when it comes to skills, yes - probably, when it comes to drive and motivation, no.... I think Button is laidback comparatively speaking :)

ShiftingGears

29th August 2009, 08:03

Oh and Garry, Kimi's only been interested since Massa's been injured. He's stepped up his game because he's worried about his job. Ice cream anyone?

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/145430/1/ferrari_confirms_kers-free_cars_for_china.html

Read it.

Kimi had a terminal problem in his car. Hence, he got out of the car, and ate an ice cream, because it was hot.

ShiftingGears

29th August 2009, 08:10

Ok so Taz said Kimi had 17 wins before this season. Ok. Kimi has had 9 seasons since 2002 in either a Ferrari or McLaren, and in all of them he's had a chance at winning races. And he's managed 17 wins, in total, and IMO lucked into his championship which Fernando and Lewis lost between them.

He made his own luck. He got himself into a position where he could win the championship. And then he did.

Trulli and Fisi are both Grand Prix winners, they have multiple pole positions to their names and both have over 200 starts.

And this makes them better than Kimi how?

F1boat

29th August 2009, 08:31

No way Trulli, Fisi, or even Button are in the same league as Kimi...

truefan72

29th August 2009, 10:34

kimi, alonso and hamilton -
top league - top dogs, champions, x factor, when they are on, they are unbbeatable. Combination of skill consistent pace and genius. Good in all conditions and think lightning fast.

vettel, webber, kubica, massa -
2nd league- really good but not great, would beat most on comers. except the big 3. Have major strengths, also have clear weaknesses too. Kubica is about primed to be a top dog.

rosberg, button, barrichello, glock, sutil - 3rd league

Rosberg, glock and sutil can/could be on their way up. All need to improve Barrichello holds steady. Button swings between 2&3

truefan72

29th August 2009, 10:40

btw
heard a rumor about Alonso coming back to Mclaren, i don't think that will happen, Actually more likely would be Kimi coming back to the macs. might be a real possibility.

DazzlaF1

27th September 2009, 21:29

bump

How does it all look now

BRAWN - All depends really on this Merc deal, if they want a German driver in there, then Rosberg is almost a nailed on certainty to join, unfortunately for Barrichello, i think he'll be the one to make way

RED BULL - Vettel and Webber already signed up

FERRARI - If you believe this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78995) then its bye, bye Kimi and hello Fernando

McLAREN - Hamilton already in, and i think Kimi will return to take the 2nd seat from Kovalainen

TOYOTA - Glock to stay, Trulli to retire and have his seat taken probably by Heidfeld or Kobayashi

WILLIAMS - I predict Hulkenberg to come in and replace the outgoing Rosberg and if Barrichello leaves Brawn, then Williams is a very likely destination in my view

RENAULT - Alonso looks like he's gone and by the looks of it it'll be a fresh new line-up for them, i think it'll be Kovalainen to make a return with Kubica to re-kindle his relationship with Renault leaving Grosjean out in the cold

FORCE INDIA - I think they are pretty much sorted for drivers, Sutil and Liuzzi

TORO ROSSO - Same as Force India, except i think they'll keep Buemi and Alguersuari

CAMPOS, MANOR, USF1, LOTUS, QADBAK/SAUBER - Well your guess is as good as mine

harsha

27th September 2009, 21:55

Ross Brawn has all but confirmed that they are running Merc engines the next year...surely that means Rosberg could be heading to Brawn..

UltimateDanGTR

27th September 2009, 22:00

i dont see how brawn can get rid of barrichello though. he has proved he is every bit as good as jenson, and has been better than him lately. If you finish second in the championship and cant retain a drive, something is wrong

jens

27th September 2009, 22:01

#1 Button, BrawnGP-Mercedes
#2 Rosberg, BrawnGP-Mercedes
#3 Vettel, RBR-Mercedes
#4 Webber, RBR-Mercedes
#5 Hamilton, McLaren-Mercedes
#6 Räikkönen, McLaren-Mercedes
#7 Massa, Ferrari
#8 Alonso, Ferrari
#11 Barrichello, Williams-Renault
#12 Hülkenberg, Williams-Renault
#14 Kubica, Renault
#15 Grosjean, Renault
#16 Heidfeld, Qadbak-Ferrari
#17 Klien/(Glock*/Kova*), Qadbak-Ferrari
#18 Sutil, Force India-Mercedes
#19 Liuzzi, Force India-Mercedes
#20 Buemi, STR-Ferrari
#21 Alguersuari, STR-Ferrari
#22 de la Rosa, Campos-Cosworth
#23 Petrov, Campos-Cosworth
#24 Davidson, VirginF1-Cosworth
#25 Carroll, VirginF1-Cosworth
#26 Trulli, Lotus-Cosworth
#27 Fauzy, Lotus-Cosworth

USF1 won't make it onto the grid. :p :
Although I've to concede that the longer Red Bull waits with engine announcement, the more it feels like they could be continuing with Renault's...

* Toyota continues only if they mysteriously manage to win a race in one of the remaining 3 races to fulfill their strict goal. In this case:
#9 Glock
#10 Kovalainen/Senna

Glock might be a joker-card for Williams/Qadbak seat - if Toyota leaves.

harsha

27th September 2009, 22:05

I don't think RB will be continuing with Renault....probably Toyota engines :?:

and one more question from my end,are BMW against customer engines :?:

N. Jones

28th September 2009, 13:14

The rumors now set part of the grid like so:

Alonso/Massa - Ferrari
Hamilton/Raikkonen - McLaren
Button/Rosberg - Brawn
Kubica/Grosjean(?) - Renault
Hulkenberg/who? - Williams

I am not sure of the rest....

AndyL

28th September 2009, 13:16

Dave B

28th September 2009, 13:40

Rubens may yet become champion, and if so I'm sure his price will rise accordingly. I don't think the decision has been made yet.

jens

28th September 2009, 16:15

I don't know, how true might it be, but GPWeek.com seems to assume that both Glock and Trulli will be dropped. Either this is a sign for withdrawal or what could it possibly be?

Maybe that's why Trulli was nowhere at Singapore - he has already been told he's out of the team? From that point of view his season finale is starting to remind of Renault '04...

Dave B

28th September 2009, 17:38

Maybe that's why Trulli was nowhere at Singapore - he has already been told he's out of the team? From that point of view his season finale is starting to remind of Renault '04...
Then kick him out now and put Villeneuve in the car - they don't need the points anyway if they're pulling out! :p

N. Jones

28th September 2009, 19:30

The site newsonf1 says that Glock was told his option will not be enforced for 2010.
http://www.newsonf1.co.uk/2009/news/Sep/article_Toyota_skips_2010_option_on_Glock_contract .html

CNR

30th September 2009, 12:50

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=120628&newlang=&topic=1&catid=1

If team principal Franz Tost has his way, Toro Rosso will race with an unchanged driver lineup when the 2010 season kicks off next year.
But Austrian Tost acknowledged that the final decision will be made at Red Bull's Salzburg headquarters with the approval of team owner Dietrich Mateschitz.
He is however happy with Sebastien Bourdais' mid-season replacement Alguersuari, a teenaged Spaniard, and especially the Swiss rookie Buemi.

"We had to give up our original plan of having an experienced driver with a beginner, because Buemi was too far ahead of the Frenchman (Bourdais).
"Now Red Bull has again made Toro Rosso a school for the new generation."

Firstgear

30th September 2009, 21:10

Wow - quite the silly season, as drivers go. Looks like Red Bull will be the only team to be going into 2010 with the same drivers they started with in 2009.
Quite the shake up!

jens

30th September 2009, 22:05

A few more comments I've read from various sources:

AMUS:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/fahrerkarussell-2010-der-transfermarkt-kommt-in-schwung-1416440.html

Glock is indeed associated with Sauber (which I marked with asterisk in my line-up prediction) as an alternative to Toyota.

If Toyota continues (I personally seriously doubt about it), drivers will be Glock and Nakajima. If Glock moves to Sauber, the drivers will be Nakajima and Kovalainen. :o (in this case it would indeed better to leave for them).

A bit surprisingly to me Trulli is associated with Renault as there are still people in the team, who rate him based on their past co-operation. :) By the way, James Allen blog offers the same rumour!

maximilian

30th September 2009, 22:05

If team principal Franz Tost has his way, Toro Rosso will race with an unchanged driver lineup when the 2010 season kicks off next year.
But Austrian Tost acknowledged that the final decision will be made at Red Bull's Salzburg headquarters with the approval of team owner Dietrich Mateschitz.
He is however happy with Sebastien Bourdais' mid-season replacement Alguersuari, a teenaged Spaniard, and especially the Swiss rookie Buemi. (http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=120628&newlang=&topic=1&catid=1)
That seems awfully short sighted... I'll agree Buemi has done a "fine" job, but there hasn't been anything earth-shattering. Alguersuari? You gotta be kidding... I don't know what one could possibly be "happy" about him. As poorly as Bourdais seemed to be doing, he now looks like M.Schumacher compared to this kid!! :rolleyes: Surely there are at least 50 available drivers who'd be doing a better job for them next year!! I am really interested to see how Loeb might do, if he gets the one-off race, I wish he'd stay on. Too bad the Toro Rossos suck at the moment, might not do Loeb any justice.

jens

30th September 2009, 22:37

Btw, coming back to that earlier prediction, I think I would switch Fauzy with Bruno Senna in the Lotus line-up. :p : IMO Senna would be an ideal driver for a new team. He would provide media attention (surely important for a newcomer) + sponsorship money (much-needed for struggling teams without saying) + a driver with at least decent driving skills (never rated him as a top-drawer, but I hope he would be able to deal with F1 pressures better than Nelsinho). I'm a bit surprised that no strong rumours have associated him with any team.

Let's put it that way - in terms of driving skills there isn't much between the likes of Klien, Davidson, Pantano, Senna, di Grassi, etc, who are all competing for minor seats. But in other categories Bruno has an advantage.

DazzlaF1

30th September 2009, 23:19

Personally, i dont think Toyota will leave and Glock i think will be retained

BRAWN: 1. Jenson Button, 2. Nico Rosberg
RED BULL: 3. Sebastian Vettel, 4. Mark Webber
FERRARI: 5. Fernando Alonso, 6. Felipe Massa
McLAREN: 7. Lewis Hamilton, 8. Kimi Raikkonen
TOYOTA: 9. Timo Glock, 10. Kamui Kobayashi/KazukiNakajima
WILLIAMS: 11. Rubens Barrichello, 12. Niko Hulkenberg
RENAULT: 14. Heikki Kovalainen, 15. Robert Kubica
QADBAK/SAUBER: 16. Nick Heidfeld, 17. Neel Jani
FORCE INDIA: 18. Adrian Sutil, 19. Vitantonio Liuzzi
TORO ROSSO: 20. Sebastien Buemi, 21. Jaime Alguersuari
USF1: 22. J.R. Hildebrand, 23. Jonathan Summerton/Graham Rahal
CAMPOS: 24. Vitaly Petrov, 25. Javier Villa
MANOR: 26. Anthony Davidson, 27. Adam Carroll
LOTUS: 28. Jarno Trulli, 29. Fairuz Fauzy

Ranger

1st October 2009, 03:00

Brawn: Button, Rosberg

Red Bull: Vettel, Webber

McLaren: Hamilton, Raikkonen

Ferrari: Alonso, Massa

Toyota: ???, Kobayashi (if they remain in F1)

Renault: Kubica, Grosjean

Williams: Barrichello, Hulkenberg

STR: Buemi, Alguersuari

Force India: Sutil, Liuzzi

Manor: Kovalainen, Davidson

Campos: Pantano, Petrov

USF1: ???, ???

Lotus: Trulli, Senna

Qadbank/Sauber: Heidfeld, Klien

With USF1 and Toyota being less than likely to make the grid.

DexDexter

1st October 2009, 13:10

http://twitter.com/NobleF1

What's this guys?

Dave B

1st October 2009, 13:17

http://twitter.com/NobleF1

What's this guys?
The Schumacher brothers to Force India? :p

I'll go out on a limb - Lewis to Brawn, soon to be the "official" Mercedes team. Total speculation but on the million-to-one chance I'm right I get to boast that I said it first! :p ;)

Ranger

1st October 2009, 13:18

http://twitter.com/NobleF1

What's this guys?

He's an Autosport editor, his tweets appear at the side of articles on that site.

As to the driver market shock, no idea.

DexDexter

1st October 2009, 13:19

He's an Autosport editor, his tweets appear at the side of articles on that site.

As to the driver market shock, no idea.

Come on, I was referring to the story :)

Ranger

1st October 2009, 13:24

Come on, I was referring to the story :)

Hence why I said:

As to the driver market shock, no idea.

Nobe clearly has no idea either. Like Chinese whispers but less substantial. :)

jens

1st October 2009, 19:34

Err, how can a "shock" be defined? And that still has to be a realistic one, not something like Villeneuve joining McLaren or whatever. :p :

Maybe Kubica will join another team, not Renault? I'm a bit surprised Robert hasn't been associated with any other team, although Brawn & McLaren should be attractive options for him.

McLaren extends contract with Kovalainen? :D
Improving Force India has attracted a top-line driver? :p :
Or... despite having confirmed both drivers for '10, RBR decides to dump Webber for someone (Kimi) ? :erm:
Senna/Piquet get a drive somewhere?

drewdawg727

6th October 2009, 15:19

Has Sebastien Bourdais been talking to any of these new teams? I am betting he wants to get his name thrown back in the mix...
And what's the deal with Fisi?

gloomyDAY

13th October 2009, 04:49

Any bets on where Romain Grosjean is headed?

Placid

13th October 2009, 08:23

Will Mario make a surprise appearance when the new Lotus livery
is presented and push Marco for 1 of the seats?

Roamy

13th October 2009, 08:26

marco can't beat patrick !

maximilian

14th October 2009, 14:13

Any bets on where Romain Grosjean is headed?
NASCAR? :p

I am evil Homer

14th October 2009, 14:19

Umeployment line?

jens

17th October 2009, 20:39

My bet on Grosjean would be back in GP2 for a third season and maybe a reserve driver for some F1 team to try to get a regular race drive seat back for 2011 (like Liuzzi has done at Force India).

Roamy

30th October 2009, 09:02

well now that Kimi has turned down Toyota you can bet the big check in now waived in front of Button's face and Brawn perhaps can't even get close to it.

Dave B

30th October 2009, 11:04

Dutch TV reporting that Glock is off to Renault; BBC asked him directly and he said nothing's been signed. Not a flat denial, not a confirmation.

Meanwhile the Brazillian press are reporting (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/senna-and-de-la-rosa-at-campos/) that Senna and de la Rosa are bound for Campos; and that it might be di Grassi - not Glock - at Renault.

DexDexter

30th October 2009, 11:42

I have a hunch that Kovalainen will end up at Force India. No sources to back it up but it would make sense since Heikki is a nice guy who has been a good teamplayer and well-liked in the team. Mercedes and Mclaren might help him get a seat there

AndyL

30th October 2009, 12:03

Meanwhile the Brazillian press are reporting (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/senna-and-de-la-rosa-at-campos/) that Senna and de la Rosa are bound for Campos; and that it might be di Grassi - not Glock - at Renault.

So there'll be an opening for a test driver at McLaren... maybe Paffett again?

harsha

30th October 2009, 12:04

maybe quick nick to force india ????

truefan72

30th October 2009, 12:54

maybe quick nick to force india ????

that would be a good move for him, But I think Liuzzi has that locked up.

I think that Heidfeld will be back with Sauber in 2010. I firmly believe they will secure a slot on the grid bring the cars up to a glorious 14 teams.

jens

30th October 2009, 14:03

It looks like Toyota will be out of drivers for 2010. Howett is a truly genious manager. :p :

Dave B

30th October 2009, 14:07

More rumours from the BBC: Holly Samos is reporting that she's heard Kimi will "definately sign for McLaren", and that Heikki could well be off to Toyota.

DexDexter

30th October 2009, 17:42

Kimi says that he will drive for Mclaren if he gets the contract he wants.

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2009/10/986526

It looks like Toyota will be out of drivers for 2010. Howett is a truly genious manager. :p :

Yep, and a week ago he said they were discussing with Kimi. Kimi said it loud and clear yesterday: They've not had discussions with Toyota. Corporate guy, Howett :rolleyes:

DexDexter

30th October 2009, 17:43

It looks like Toyota will be out of drivers for 2010. Howett is a truly genious manager. :p :

Yep, and a week ago he said they were discussing with Kimi. Kimi said it loud an clear yesterday: They've not had discussions with Toyota. Corporate guy, Howett :rolleyes:

keysersoze

30th October 2009, 20:16

Heikki could well be off to Toyota.

and the run of inconsistency and mediocrity continues . . . :dozey:

DexDexter

31st October 2009, 09:36

Heikki hopes Kimi will continue in F1 (and take his place at Mclaren). Such a nice lad.

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/urheilu/uutinen.asp?id=1747328

Dave B

31st October 2009, 10:27

and the run of inconsistency and mediocrity continues . . . :dozey:
Well quite. I don't get Toyota, they spend squillions on their cars and yet have a habit of putting very average drivers in them. They had a chance to land Raikkonen, and maybe an outside chance of Alonso, but instead seem to be settling for not-quite-second best.

DazzlaF1

31st October 2009, 19:56

Well quite. I don't get Toyota, they spend squillions on their cars and yet have a habit of putting very average drivers in them. They had a chance to land Raikkonen, and maybe an outside chance of Alonso, but instead seem to be settling for not-quite-second best.

I think they're waiting for the executive's decision on next years budget before confirming drivers, i dont think though Raikkonen will want to wait that long for Toyota to decide how much money they will have. If they miss out on Kimi though, i wonder if they might make a last ditch attempt to get Button if his contract talks with Brawn get dodgy.

jens

2nd November 2009, 16:29

They had a chance to land Raikkonen, and maybe an outside chance of Alonso, but instead seem to be settling for not-quite-second best.

It's not like Toyota is "settling" with others, but simply top drivers do not want to join Toyota. Big difference there. Obviously drivers know that Toyota is still not good enough for winning (despite Howett's best attempts to convince otherwise) and hence prefer other options. I don't think Toyota has ever had a realistic chance to get Kimi/Alonso. They have tried to get them, but then again Force India/STR/Williams/etc would be happy to have them too - reality is that they can only dream.

ioan

2nd November 2009, 20:28

Obviously drivers know that Toyota is still not good enough for winning ...

I believe they are making a mistake. Toyota just didn't have drivers good enough to win, yet.
BMW only won a race where half the pack was out of the race because some stupid moves and stupid SC rules.

jens

2nd November 2009, 21:31

I believe they are making a mistake.

So you claim yourself to be smarter than drivers? Surely any driver would think twice before joining a team, where they get criticized any time they don't win.

And maybe you and others can point out, which races Toyota should have won? Take a look at this view angle: Trulli is known as a quali-specialist, who takes all out of his car in quali and gets the maximum-result... But the only poles he has had in his Toyota career have been... USA'05, which was achieved on fumes. And Bahrain'09, which has been discussed on numerous occasions. So how is he supposed to win if there is always a faster car than his?

You may rightly point out that he could have achieved a couple of more podiums than he has done in reality, but I don't see a win anywhere. Sorry.