Overtaking and diffusers (was: How true)

[ioan]

Q. You have KERS and you have an adjustable front wing, but still there is not much overtaking. Are we back in the old situation now?

FM: To be honest, if you look, the idea from the FIA was to reduce the downforce completely from the car. And they did. But then they allowed the diffuser, so everyone is back on the high downforce. It doesn’t make any sense.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76471

Couldn't agree more! Typical FIA rule making.

[Mark]

It would have made more sense when the DDD fuss was going on for the FIA to say, ok, you managed to work your way around the rules this year, but for 2010 this will not be allowed.

As far as I can see they haven't said any such thing.

[I am evil Homer]

Indeed....FIA technical team's silence is deafening!

[Ent]

This has been an annoyance of mine. The whole point of the aero issue was to allow cars to get closer and to race, and thanks to the diffuser issue, cars can't get closer enough and we're stuck with processions again. When a car can't pass the one in front, and then, thanks to a mistake, gets past and goes a second a lap quicker, that's just crazy. If you're a second a lap quicker and you can't get close enough to pass, then the rules have to change.

[woody2goody]

I do think people were getting close enough to attempt passes, but there aren't any long braking areas at Silverstone so it's always risky to stick one up the inside.

The 09 cars are making the drivers make more mistakes though. This creates overtaking. I thought the British GP was pretty damn entertaining. Some good scraps all through the field really.

[Knock-on]

Good point ioan.

The FIA either needed to sort this out when Ross brough it to them last year or tighten up the rules for next year.

As per normal, they have fudged it.

[wedge]

Hard to say.

We didn't have enough to race to say whether a standard diffuser would work or not.

Vettel was adamant the Brawn diffuser was to blame for not being able to pass Button.

But then you have Hamilton hitting the rev limit trying to get past Kubica yesterday.

[wedge]

Good point ioan.

The FIA either needed to sort this out when Ross brough it to them last year or tighten up the rules for next year.

As per normal, they have fudged it.


Errr it wasn't that long ago people were advocating Brawn and co for design ingenuity

[christophulus]

Errr it wasn't that long ago people were advocating Brawn and co for design ingenuity

It is ingenuity. The diffusers are legal under the current set of rules, therefore banning them would have been extremely unfair - you can't pick and choose which rules to enforce.

The rules obviously need tightening up for next year to ban them again, the racing has suffered. But I think F1 has more pressing issues at the moment, i.e. who's going to be racing in the series next year?

[Knock-on]

Errr it wasn't that long ago people were advocating Brawn and co for design ingenuity

Brawn and co did a superb job within the rules as they are.

It isn't the teams fault the FIA are incompetent.

[AndyL]

This has been an annoyance of mine. The whole point of the aero issue was to allow cars to get closer and to race, and thanks to the diffuser issue, cars can't get closer enough and we're stuck with processions again.

I don't recall the non-DDD cars looking particularly easier to follow or pass at the start of the season. Double decker vs single decker diffusers will make a small difference in total downforce. What you need if you want easy overtaking is a massive reduction in total downforce. A little tweak like blocking holes in the diffuser is not going to result in touring car style overtaking. When cars are relying on more than their own weight in aerodynamic downforce, very difficult overtaking is inevitable.

[ClarkFan]

It would have made more sense when the DDD fuss was going on for the FIA to say, ok, you managed to work your way around the rules this year, but for 2010 this will not be allowed.

As far as I can see they haven't said any such thing.

I don't think the problem is so much the particular specification of diffusers, it it the use of a rear-mounted diffuser as a downforce component. I saw articles in 1988 citing diffusers as a problem for following cars.. I believe that a better answer than some new diffuser specification is to limit all the ground effects profiles to the sidepods (somewhat like the Lotus 78), where the outflow is then broken up by the rear tires.

I would advocate that change as part of a larger shift in aerodynamic rules - with single-element front and rear wings of limited size, and allowing wider tracks and wider tires. The goal would be to shift reliance for grip more towards mechanical grip, so that a faster car can follow more closely and pass. The last few laps of yesterday's race illustrate the continuing problem - Button closed up on Rosberg by 1 second a lap or better, then once down to 0.5 second, he couldn't come to grips for a passing attempt.

ClarkFan

[wedge]

Brawn and co did a superb job within the rules as they are.

It isn't the teams fault the FIA are incompetent.

The FIA weren't incompetent.

The the holes and step planes manifested in such a way because their original intentions were never to extend the diffusers. In the end it simply came down to interpretation.

They quite rightly took off over-car downforce. Many so-called experts such as ex-designers like Gary Anderson and Gordon Murray have advocated greater under car aero.

But at least the FIA pulled their fingers and did try something. Incompetence would be complacency and have Working Group reports sitting on desks covered with coffee/tea cup rings.

[Andrewmcm]

The FIA weren't incompetent.

The the holes and step planes manifested in such a way because their original intentions were never to extend the diffusers. In the end it simply came down to interpretation.

They quite rightly took off over-car downforce. Many so-called experts such as ex-designers like Gary Anderson and Gordon Murray have advocated greater under car aero.

But at least the FIA pulled their fingers and did try something. Incompetence would be complacency and have Working Group reports sitting on desks covered with coffee/tea cup rings.

Under-car aero is the way forward, it's just that the current implementation of the rules in F1 prevents effective use of ground-effects to generate lift (in the negative sense). Having a flat-bottomed car produces a reliance on the wings to produce downforce and it's well known how sensitive these devices are to oncoming turbulence. Venturi tunnels of some form would be a much better way to produce lift, with less sensitivity to inlet flow conditions.

The rub is in policing the venturis in such a way so that they do not become unsafe or dangerous, but CART in the '80s and '90s showed that restrictions on skirting and venturi dimensions can produce cars that have the ability to follow each other closely. Hopefully someone in the FIA technical committee will think of taking this course in the future.

[woody2goody]

But what if overtaking becomes too prevalent? Then any time you have a faster guy behind, you know he will be able to easily get past, robbing us of races like Imola 2005 and 06.

I'm surprised people think the overtaking hasn't been there this year, because it has for the most part. There's been more this year than last I think.

[Ranger]

But what if overtaking becomes too prevalent? Then any time you have a faster guy behind, you know he will be able to easily get past, robbing us of races like Imola 2005 and 06.

Speaking of great races, did you see the MotoGP race at Catalunya last weekend?


I'm surprised people think the overtaking hasn't been there this year, because it has for the most part. There's been more this year than last I think.

There was early in the season, until everyone got the DD, which is ingenius but goes against the spirit of this year's rules 100%.