Israeli settlements...

[gloomyDAY]

Is Netanyahu succumbing to the pressure from Obama?

The U.S. administration has sent a clear message to Israel and they anticipate that there will be a halt to anymore expansion. I just think that America is taking a gamble in losing a formidable ally, but at least it could pay off.

Peace in the region will only be brokered if Israel stops taking Palestinian land.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/israeli_settlements_in_the_wes.html

[race aficionado]

Stop those settlements now!!!!

and be prepared to return the land that has been "settled" already.

This will give peace a chance.

It's the only way.
:s mokin:

[Rollo]

Peace will never be brokered in the region.

Netanyahu made the following statements in this speech:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/06/20096154420444791.html
I have already stressed the first principle: recognition. Palestinians must clearly and unambiguously recognise Israel as the state of the Jewish people.
The second principle is: demilitarisation. The territory under Palestinian control must be demilitarised with ironclad security provisions for Israel.

Problem One - how do you get Hamas to even recognise the existance of Israel when their stated goal is the destruction of Israel. It even says as much in their charter:
On the Destruction of Israel:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

Problem Two - how do you get Hamas to demilitarise when their stated method is Jihad?
"There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

The Arabic world largely thinks that Israel's creation in 1948 is a case of thievery, but conveniently forget that the creation of about 7 Arabic nations was as a result of the same declaration that intended to create the state of Israel in the first place (1917 & Balfour anyone?).

Peace is never ever going to be brokered in the region ever - or not until every Islamic or Jewish person in the world is destroyed, and that's also quite frankly an utterly disgusting proposal.
It's virtually two brothers fighting each other forever... on a bigger scale... and both sides are wrong.

[race aficionado]

Peace will never be brokered in the region.

Netanyahu made the following statements in this speech:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/06/20096154420444791.html
I have already stressed the first principle: recognition. Palestinians must clearly and unambiguously recognise Israel as the state of the Jewish people.
The second principle is: demilitarisation. The territory under Palestinian control must be demilitarised with ironclad security provisions for Israel.

Problem One - how do you get Hamas to even recognise the existance of Israel when their stated goal is the destruction of Israel. It even says as much in their charter:
On the Destruction of Israel:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

Problem Two - how do you get Hamas to demilitarise when their stated method is Jihad?
"There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

The Arabic world largely thinks that Israel's creation in 1948 is a case of thievery, but conveniently forget that the creation of about 7 Arabic nations was as a result of the same declaration that intended to create the state of Israel in the first place (1917 & Balfour anyone?).

Peace is never ever going to be brokered in the region ever - or not until every Islamic or Jewish person in the world is destroyed, and that's also quite frankly an utterly disgusting proposal.
It's virtually two brothers fighting each other forever... on a bigger scale... and both sides are wrong.

Rollo.
And the good news is??????????? :D


Many others believe as you do and I recognize that.


I am one of many that does see light at the end of the tunnel - why? - because I have faith, because I know that we as one humanity will find a way to make this happen - and of course I know that those brothers fighting against brothers will among themselves work it out -

And a world that is watching, is rooting for them to be at peace.

I'm an idealist, a romantic . . . .


so sue me!

:s mokin:

[gloomyDAY]

I think peace is possible if Hamas gets disbanded. This group is the antithesis to arbitration. Israel is not willing, and justifiably so, to live next to a neighbor that will employ barbaric tactics to get its point across.

My belief is that this battle is causing too much instability in the region and America has had enough of writing blank checks to Israel. When does it end? Well let's get to work since brute force hasn't been the solution for the past few decades.

[Tazio]

This group is the antithesis to arbitration. Israel is not willing, and justifiably so,
to live next to a neighbor that will employ barbaric tactics to get its point across. Well we could give them a gang of F-16's, and billions of dollars worth of other advanced weaponry.
Than they could try to destroy Israel using civilized tactics. :mark:

[Hondo]

When one group states it's goal, purpose, and/or intent is the destruction of another, I take them at their word.

In their own funny way, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are also romantics and idealists.

[Eki]

Israeli settlements?

<FOUSTO IMPRESSION>NUKE 'EM!</FOUSTO IMPRESSION>

[Eki]

Israel is not willing, and justifiably so, to live next to a neighbor that will employ barbaric tactics to get its point across.

Pot, kettle.

[Eki]

Well we could give them a gang of F-16's, and billions of dollars worth of other advanced weaponry.
Than they could try to destroy Israel using civilized tactics. :mark:
Good point.

[Hondo]

Well we could give them a gang of F-16's, and billions of dollars worth of other advanced weaponry.
Than they could try to destroy Israel using civilized tactics. :mark:

Nah, with the exception of the F-16s, the Soviets already did that for their arab neighbors and they still couldn't get it done.

[Tazio]

Nah, with the exception of the F-16s, the Soviets already did that for their arab neighbors and they still couldn't get it done.
What part of the word try, in my post did you not understand ;)

[Tazio]

Nah, with the exception of the F-16s, the Soviets already did that for their arab neighbors and they still couldn't get it done. And just for good measure:
Hamas was founded in 1987.
That is the organization we were referring to! :arrows:

[Hondo]

It would be too difficult for Hamas to store and sortie their F-16s from civillian neighborhoods. To give Hamas billions of dollars of military equipment would require a large amount of space for storage and training. In that case Hamas would have definate fixed targets that would be easy to destroy.

You really think Hamas could field high tech military equipment better than the Syrian or Egyptian Armies? Nah.

[Tazio]

It would be too difficult for Hamas to store and sortie their F-16s from civillian neighborhoods. To give Hamas billions of dollars of military equipment would require a large amount of space for storage and training. In that case Hamas would have definate fixed targets that would be easy to destroy.

You really think Hamas could field high tech military equipment better than the Syrian or Egyptian Armies? Nah.Let me ask you a question!
Why are you trying to take a sardonic comment I made about fighting in a civilized manor,
as opposed to barbarically into a projection of what I think is an opinion of military prowess?
And to answer your last question,
I assure you we will never will know :)

[Eki]

It would be too difficult for Hamas to store and sortie their F-16s from civillian neighborhoods.
How about an air-craft carrier?

[Camelopard]

How about an air-craft carrier?

Didn't the israelis find one of those in gaza just recently?

[Mark in Oshawa]

All I know is the West Bank was part of Jordan until Jordan attacked Israel. Israel took it as part of the war. If the Jordanians didn't see sense and call a cease fire, maybe Amman would be part of the "occupied"terrorties.

The blueprint is there and Egypt followed it. You make peace with Isreal in a meaningful way, you get your land back. It isn't tough to figure out......but no one in the Arab world wants to admit they cant get the Jews out of Palestine....

[gloomyDAY]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090827/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_netanyahu_auschwitz

Israel got the blueprints from Auschwitz.

I guess they are getting ready to exterminate the Palestinians. :p

[gloomyDAY]

Well we could give them a gang of F-16's, and billions of dollars worth of other advanced weaponry.
Than they could try to destroy Israel using civilized tactics. :mark: Touché.

I just don't see the necessity for suicide attacks.
Makes Palestinians look more desperate and Israel more in the right.


Anyway, U.S. & Israel seem to be approaching a deal to freeze the settlements.

[Tomi]

The blueprint is there and Egypt followed it.

Dont fool your self, the Egyptian peace is bought with big loans from US, the ordinary people in Egypt has very different view than what their weak government has.

[Roamy]

Stop those settlements now!!!!

and be prepared to return the land that has been "settled" already.

This will give peace a chance.

It's the only way.
:s mokin:

Hey Race we agree :eek: :eek: :p

[Eki]

Anyway, U.S. & Israel seem to be approaching a deal to freeze the settlements.
Hope so. The US should decide that every American taking Israeli citizenship lose their US citizenship, since there are so many voting both in US elections and in Israeli elections.

[steve_spackman]

There is a American documentry called 'The Israeli Lobby A Danger To The World'

It talks about how the relationship with Israel is not a good thing to have. The people interviewed are US political scientists, through to American/Jewish peace advocates.

I have it on dvd..you should watch it. Its here to watch also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N294FMDok98

[steve_spackman]

superg

[schmenke]

...The Arabic world largely thinks that Israel's creation in 1948 is a case of thievery, but conveniently forget that the creation of about 7 Arabic nations ....

Including Palestine.

[steve_spackman]

Its time to stop the bulldozing of homes and farms so Israelis can move in. A stop to the bombings and killings of women and children. A stop of the threat of atomic bombs from Israel. Jews for centuries demanded their own State, based on "god said so". But, deny the Palestinians the same thing. A case of we got ours now go____ yourself.

Its time for Israel to come off the "Endangered Species List". Its 60 years old, healthy and has a great appetite, it devours its neighbours. Time for it to fend for itself and not use UN and American soldiers to die for it. Let Israel defend itself if it wants to be the bully on the block. I think they'd stop pretty quick if no other nation was willing to send their young men and women to die in place of Israelis.

[schmenke]

...Time for it to fend for itself and not use UN and American soldiers to die for it. Let Israel defend itself if it wants to be the bully on the block. I think they'd stop pretty quick if no other nation was willing to send their young men and women to die in place of Israelis.

Without military support from the UN and U.S. Israel would be obliterated.

[chuck34]

Its time to stop the bulldozing of homes and farms so Israelis can move in. A stop to the bombings and killings of women and children. A stop of the threat of atomic bombs from Israel. Jews for centuries demanded their own State, based on "god said so". But, deny the Palestinians the same thing. A case of we got ours now go____ yourself.

It all goes back to who has a legitimate claim to the land. As far as I can tell land claims come down to two things, who owned it first, and who owned it last. Well Israel pretty much wins on either case. Whether you believe God granted them the land or not, the Jewish people (or their predicesors) owned that land about as far back as anyone knows. And they obviously own it now. So what right do the Palestinians have to that land? Afterall they didn't even own it previous to Israel.


Its time for Israel to come off the "Endangered Species List". Its 60 years old, healthy and has a great appetite, it devours its neighbours. Time for it to fend for itself and not use UN and American soldiers to die for it. Let Israel defend itself if it wants to be the bully on the block. I think they'd stop pretty quick if no other nation was willing to send their young men and women to die in place of Israelis.

You sure you want that? As much as Israel is seen as having a "great appetite" and "devouring its neighbours", it's boarders have shrank since '67. It has given over control of land to other "nations" at a fairly regular clip since '67. All in a quest for Peace. A Peace that the UN and the US are pushing fairly hard for, but that Israel herself doesn't necessarily want or need. What has Israel gotten for all the "peace deals" it's signed over the years? What I'm saying is if the US and UN cut them loose to "defend itself", I believe you guys would be asking for someone to stop them.

And how many young men and women have died in place of Israelis? I think the IDF does most of it's fighting for itself. Sure it gets equipment from the US, but her Arab neighbors gets lots of equipment from the Russians.

[chuck34]

Without military support from the UN and U.S. Israel would be obliterated.

Without military support from the former USSR, and current Russians, the Arabs would be obliterated.

[steve_spackman]

Without military support from the former USSR, and current Russians, the Arabs would be obliterated.

Remember that Arab nations also get their military hardware from Western countries aswell.

[chuck34]

Remember that Arab nations also get their military hardware from Western countries aswell.

OK, is there a point? You seemed to be sugesting that without foreign aid that Israel would collapse. I'm simply pointing out that the same is true of the surrounding Arab nations.

So pull all support from all countries, and let them fight it out? Thunder Dome style? Two men (countries) enter, one man (country) leaves? My money's still on Israel.

[Eki]

It all goes back to who has a legitimate claim to the land. As far as I can tell land claims come down to two things, who owned it first, and who owned it last. Well Israel pretty much wins on either case. Whether you believe God granted them the land or not, the Jewish people (or their predicesors) owned that land about as far back as anyone knows. And they obviously own it now. So what right do the Palestinians have to that land? Afterall they didn't even own it previous to Israel.

British people owned the land what's now called the US until 1776. Do you think they are entitled to get it back now? What right do the Americans have to that land?

[chuck34]

British people owned the land what's now called the US until 1776. Do you think they are entitled to get it back now? What right do the Americans have to that land?

We fought a war and won it. Finland was owned by Sweden and Russia at different points in time, should we just give it back? You might want to read what I wrote. I said who owned it first or LAST have legitimate claims on land. When was the last time that a country called Palestine existed?

[Eki]

We fought a war and won it. Finland was owned by Sweden and Russia at different points in time, should we just give it back? You might want to read what I wrote. I said who owned it first or LAST have legitimate claims on land. When was the last time that a country called Palestine existed?
Before 1947, when was the last time that a country called Israel existed? Weren't the Israeli at some point slaves of the Egyptians? Should we go back to that?

IMO, Israel should have been founded on the land of present day Germany.

[chuck34]

Before 1947, when was the last time that a country called Israel existed?

Really? Before 1947, the area now known as Israel (or Palestine, if you like) was controled by the British, not Palestinians.

Isreal exists TODAY. And therefore have a pretty strong claim to that land.

[chuck34]

Before 1947, when was the last time that a country called Israel existed? Weren't the Israeli at some point slaves of the Egyptians? Should we go back to that?

You see Eki, there's always a claim isn't there? Where do you want to stop? when is the "right" time for said claim?

[Eki]

You see Eki, there's always a claim isn't there? Where do you want to stop? when is the "right" time for said claim?
The "right" time would have been around 1945. Founding Israel in the Middle East after that was a big mistake.

[chuck34]

The "right" time would have been around 1945. Founding Israel in the Middle East after that was a big mistake.

What? So are you saying that who ever controled the land in 1945 is the "rightful owner"? That means that we have to turn the land back over to the British, right? But the British gave up the land in question in order to form a Jewish State there. So the land claim then transfers to Israel.

I must not be following you, because the way I see it you just said that Israel has a right to exist. That can't be true, you can't believe that. Can you?

[Eki]

What? So are you saying that who ever controled the land in 1945 is the "rightful owner"? That means that we have to turn the land back over to the British, right? But the British gave up the land in question in order to form a Jewish State there. So the land claim then transfers to Israel.

I must not be following you, because the way I see it you just said that Israel has a right to exist. That can't be true, you can't believe that. Can you?
No, I say the Jews should have been given some land in Germany to found Israel there, not in the Middle East. European and American Jews shouldn't have had anything to do with the Middle East. European and American Jews have as little moral right to the land Israel is occupying now than Finnish Lutherans have a moral right to Würtemberg in Germany.

[chuck34]

No, I say the Jews should have been given some land in Germany to found Israel there, not in the Middle East. European and American Jews shouldn't have had anything to do with the Middle East.

Yeah and founding Israel in the middle of Germany wouldn't have been a mess either. Plus, quite a few of the Jews that found themselves in Germany in 1945 didn't start out there either.

Why shouldn't European and American Jews be allowed to emmigrate to Israel? Do you not think that people should be allowed to live where ever they choose?

[Eki]

Why shouldn't European and American Jews be allowed to emmigrate to Israel? Do you not think that people should be allowed to live where ever they choose?
Are you willing to let everyone willing to emigrate to the US do so without having any control on the immigration? The indigenous Palestinians and Arabs have no control on who may and who may not emigrate to Israel. It's all controlled by the Jews, most of them of foreign origin.

[chuck34]

Are you willing to let everyone willing to emigrate to the US do so without having any control on the immigration?

What kind of question is that? And what does it have to do with Israel?

But to answer it, yes, in a way. As long as we know who is here, and they are paying our taxes, I don't really have a problem with most (non-criminals, etc.) people comming here.

[Eki]

Yeah and founding Israel in the middle of Germany wouldn't have been a mess either.
Maybe it would, but at least the Palestinians weren't responsible for the Holocaust, so if anyone had to be punished for that, it should have been the Germans, not the Palestinians.

[chuck34]

The indigenous Palestinians and Arabs have no control on who may and who may not emigrate to Israel. It's all controlled by the Jews, most of them of foreign origin.

Sorry about their luck. When was the last time they did have control? Was it under British rule? Or maybe Ottoman rule? Perhaps Egyptian rule?

When was the last time Palistinians controled the region? Simple question.

[Eki]

Sorry about their luck. When was the last time they did have control? Was it under British rule? Or maybe Ottoman rule? Perhaps Egyptian rule?

When was the last time Palistinians controled the region? Simple question.
Shouldn't they have had the right to do so even once? Finns didn't have the opportunity to control the region called Finland before 1917. I'm glad we finally got the chance.

[schmenke]

It all goes back to who has a legitimate claim to the land. As far as I can tell land claims come down to two things, who owned it first, and who owned it last. Well Israel pretty much wins on either case. Whether you believe God granted them the land or not, the Jewish people (or their predicesors) owned that land about as far back as anyone knows. And they obviously own it now. So what right do the Palestinians have to that land? Afterall they didn't even own it previous to Israel.....

Nobody "owned" Palestine. The first settlers of the area are generally regarded as the Amorites whose exact origins are debatable. This nomadic group was eventualy punted out of "Palestine" by the Philistines. Both the Arabs and Israelis settled the region much later and cohabitated peacefully for generations.

[chuck34]

Shouldn't they have had the right to do so even once? Finns didn't have the opportunity to control the region called Finland before 1917. I'm glad we finally got the chance.

Maybe. And perhaps if they stopped firing rockets at the Jewish people, sat down with them at the negotiation table, and asked for such a thing, it might be considered.

[chuck34]

Nobody "owned" Palestine. The first settlers of the area are generally regarded as the Amorites whose exact origins are debatable. This nomadic group was eventualy punted out of "Palestine" by the Philistines. Both the Arabs and Israelis settled the region much later and cohabitated peacefully for generations.

Yep. So do we dig up some Amorite ancestors? That's the problem with saying "I was there first". It doesn't really work, there was always someone there before. The "I was there first" argument seems to be the only one that the Palestinians have. The Isralies also have that argument (perhaps they go farther back), but they also have the "I'm here now" argument. Which one takes more president?

[Eki]

Maybe. And perhaps if they stopped firing rockets at the Jewish people, sat down with them at the negotiation table, and asked for such a thing, it might be considered.
I doubt it.

[chuck34]

I doubt it.

Why? The Israelis have given up quite a bit since '67, why not one minor thing like that?

[schmenke]

OK, is there a point? You seemed to be sugesting that without foreign aid that Israel would collapse. I'm simply pointing out that the same is true of the surrounding Arab nations...

No. The Arab nations may purchase arms from Russia, and China for that matter, but they don't receive direct funding from these countries.
The only way for Israel to exist today is with direct support from the U.S.

[Eki]

Why? The Israelis have given up quite a bit since '67, why not one minor thing like that?
I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid like many of you Americans. I don't trust the Israeli any more than you trust the Iranians, North Koreans and Cubans.

[chuck34]

No. The Arab nations may purchase arms from Russia, and China for that matter, but they don't receive direct funding from these countries.
The only way for Israel to exist today is with direct support from the U.S.

So having the 44th largest GDP (22nd per capita) counts for nothing?

[chuck34]

I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid like many of you Americans. I don't trust the Israeli any more than you trust the Iranians, North Koreans and Cubans.

Ok, but do you deny that the Israelis have shown a willingness to negotiate in the past?

[Eki]

Ok, but do you deny that the Israelis have shown a willingness to negotiate in the past?
I doubt if they have been serious.

[chuck34]

I doubt if they have been serious.

Look at a map of Israel's borders in 1967, and today. Not serious? Are you serious?

[schmenke]

So having the 44th largest GDP (22nd per capita) counts for nothing?

It has nothing to do with monentary resources, but it sure helps to have the world's strongest military power in your back pocket when you're surrounded by a bunch of countries who would like nothing better than wipe you off the map...

[chuck34]

It has nothing to do with monentary resources, but it sure helps to have the world's strongest military power in your back pocket when you're surrounded by a bunch of countries who would like nothing better than wipe you off the map...

Wait, wait, wait just a minute. GDP has nothing to do with monetary resources? Man I must have really slept through Econ.

Let's review.

1) I say that Israel could wipe the floor with any Arab nation.
2) You say that Israel is backed by the US.
3) I say the Arab nations are backed by the USSR/Russia.
4) You say that we could take away the military backers and the Arab states would crush Israel because they have better economics.
5) I point out that Israel has the 44th highest GDP (actually 42nd according to Wiki *shrug*) in the world.
6) Then you say Economic don't matter.

What is it? Does "backing" matter? Then I pit the US proxy (Israel) against the Russian proxy (Arab States) any day. Reference the 6 Day War.

Or is it Economics? You know, BUYING arms? Then I'll pit the 42nd ranked (Israel) against the 49th (Egypt), or the 68th (Syria), or the 84th (Lebonon), or the 98th (Jordan).

Which one is it?

As far as being surronded by countries that want to wipe you off the map ... Again I think I like my chances with Israel. Have you ever heard of the 6 Day War? If not, you might want to look it up. If ever there was a chance to wipe Israel off the map, that was it. What happened?

[airshifter]

As far as being surronded by countries that want to wipe you off the map ... Again I think I like my chances with Israel. Have you ever heard of the 6 Day War? If not, you might want to look it up. If ever there was a chance to wipe Israel off the map, that was it. What happened?

What happened is a prime example of why people despise Israel and the US. Personally I don't think it's a matter of people in other countries being concerned that the US is an ally with Israel, it's a matter of them understanding that without the US or another world power backing the invading country, very few countries could do anything to Israel in a military sense. And the few remaining world powers that could assist in defeating Israel won't, as they would fear US involvement.

[chuck34]

What happened is a prime example of why people despise Israel and the US. Personally I don't think it's a matter of people in other countries being concerned that the US is an ally with Israel, it's a matter of them understanding that without the US or another world power backing the invading country, very few countries could do anything to Israel in a military sense. And the few remaining world powers that could assist in defeating Israel won't, as they would fear US involvement.

So in '67 we were at the height of the cold war, right? The US had a carrier task group in the Med. Johnson turned it tword Israel, and immediatly Kosygin called him up and said "Please don't do that, we'll have to go to war with you if you do" (or something like that). And we turned the boats around. And the Israelis still kicked the crap out of the Arabs. Do you think the US had a more direct role than the Soviets in that war?

So what exactly is the US doing that is so much more than the Russians ever did for the Arabs?

Perhaps the Israelis just politically out-foxed the rest of the region? Is that now a crime? Since when did having another county's support become such a bad thing?

[chuck34]

Honestly. Is it that hard to believe that Israel is/was a proxy of the US and that the Arab States were/are proxies of the USSR/Russia, with some other aid from the US/West?

Again, I'll ask. Let's pull ALL aid from ALL countries in the region, and put them in the Thunder Dome. Who do you think will come out?

I mean as far as I can tell the 6 Day war in '67 was pretty much a fair fight and the Isralies still came out on top. What would happen if we took the tech down a notch or two?

[steve_spackman]

We fought a war and won it.

You was fighting a war against your own people... :arrows:

[steve_spackman]

Honestly. Is it that hard to believe that Israel is/was a proxy of the US and that the Arab States were/are proxies of the USSR/Russia, with some other aid from the US/West?

Again, I'll ask. Let's pull ALL aid from ALL countries in the region, and put them in the Thunder Dome. Who do you think will come out?

I mean as far as I can tell the 6 Day war in '67 was pretty much a fair fight and the Isralies still came out on top. What would happen if we took the tech down a notch or two?

Tell me why Israel is so important to you?

[chuck34]

You was fighting a war against your own people...

Fighting for freedom, yet look at the mess YOUR country is in now LOL

What?????????? You aren't making any sence.

[steve_spackman]

What?????????? You aren't making any sence.


Making any what?

[chuck34]

Tell me why Israel is so important to you?

They aren't necessarily important to me. I just think that they have a right to exist.

It may surprise you, but I also think that the Palestinians have rights as well. And that if they would just reject terrorism, they might be able to win the right to some form of self determination.

[steve_spackman]

You lot gob off about that word freedom and democracy, yet you have none of it, so pretty much was a war that wasnt worth fighting for eh?

[steve_spackman]

They aren't necessarily important to me. I just think that they have a right to exist.

It may surprise you, but I also think that the Palestinians have rights as well. And that if they would just reject terrorism, they might be able to win the right to some form of self determination.

It is Israel with the help of the UN and the US that is holding the Palestinians back..they are merely fighting for there own survival...

[steve_spackman]

did you watch that video Israeli lobby?

[chuck34]

Making any what?

Sorry. Sense. Despite my lack of spelling skills (which I redily admit), you also have a grammer problem. "Was" is not the right word in your post. But I wasn't talking about that.

What mess are you refering to?

[chuck34]

You lot gob off about that word freedom and democracy, yet you have none of it, so pretty much was a war that wasnt worth fighting for eh?

What war?

Man I am not following you at all.

[steve_spackman]

They aren't necessarily important to me. I just think that they have a right to exist.

Why do you think that they have a right to exist? I mean you must have your reasons...

I dont care if they do or dont, its THE way that they get away with the mass murder that gets me.

They preach to the world how they was treated in WW2, yet they murder innocent women and children and treat Gaza like a death camp!!!

All because some stupid book said that they are gods children....amazing

[steve_spackman]

Sorry. Sense. Despite my lack of spelling skills (which I redily admit)

And where abouts did i use the word 'was' where was it the wrong word?

Dont panic im just messing with ya, dont bother me if you have issues with spelling. Aslong as i can understand you all is good mate!

[chuck34]

It is Israel with the help of the UN and the US that is holding the Palestinians back..they are merely fighting for there own survival...

OK, fine but the way I see it, the Israelis are doing the same thing. They have a legitimate claim to be there. The Palestinians don't see it that way. But that doesn't give them the right to INTENTIONALLY target civilians with their rockets. That's not how you win Political support.

If you want your own "survival" ... either go all out and declare war to irradicate your enemy, or try to win support in the court of Public Opinion. It seems that the Palestinians have taken the middle road and not declared war, yet poked their stick in the hornets nest.

[steve_spackman]

OK, fine but the way I see it, the Israelis are doing the same thing. They have a legitimate claim to be there. The Palestinians don't see it that way. But that doesn't give them the right to INTENTIONALLY target civilians with their rockets. That's not how you win Political support.

If you want your own "survival" ... either go all out and declare war to irradicate your enemy, or try to win support in the court of Public Opinion. It seems that the Palestinians have taken the middle road and not declared war, yet poked their stick in the hornets nest.

You should go and spend a week in Gaza and see how bloody tough it is.

[chuck34]

Why do you think that they have a right to exist? I mean you must have your reasons...[/QUOTE[

I do have my reasons. Read my previous posts. Land claims revert to either the LAST claim or the FIRST claim. The last claim is Clearly the Israelies. The first claim can be disputed between the Israelies, Palesinians, and another "dead" sect. Why do you think they don't have a right to exist?

[quote="steve_spackman":sovv6g1y]I dont care if they do or dont, its THE way that they get away with the mass murder that gets me.

They shouldn't get away with mass murder. Bottom line. But I don't think that they have commited unprovoked murder in any way shape or form (mostly, there are some military officers that should be brought up on charges, but I don't think the whole country should be condemed for the actions of a few officers).


They preach to the world how they was treated in WW2, yet they murder innocent women and children and treat Gaza like a death camp!!!

Show me the ovens in Gaza, and maybe I'll agree with you.


All because some stupid book said that they are gods children....amazing[/quote:sovv6g1y]

I personally believe in that "stupid book". But let's take that out of the question and look at actual history for a minute. When was the last time that the Palestinians had control of that region?

[chuck34]

did you watch that video Israeli lobby?

What video?

[chuck34]

And where abouts did i use the word 'was' where was it the wrong word?

Dont panic im just messing with ya, dont bother me if you have issues with spelling. Aslong as i can understand you all is good mate!

Your post #68 seemed to be questioning my spelling. No offence intended by me.

[chuck34]

You was fighting a war against your own people... :arrows:

The "was" should be "were". But again no big deal. I though you were poking at me for my spelling, so I had to poke at you for your grammer.

[steve_spackman]

Your post #68 seemed to be questioning my spelling. No offence intended by me.

:confused:

[chuck34]

You should go and spend a week in Gaza and see how bloody tough it is.

I never said it wasn't, tough did I? But you must admitt that when rockets are raining down on you from the Golan Heights, or the West Bank, or the Gaza Strip that that is also tough, right?

[steve_spackman]

The "was" should be "were".

Really well i dont see any issue with the word was in my post, but who cares right. You WERE taught English different from me at school right old chap?? ;)

[steve_spackman]

Anyway im not here to debate about spelling and grammer :p

[steve_spackman]

What video?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N294FMDok98

The Israel Lobby

The people interviewed are US conservitive political scientists members of congress and talks about how the relationship between the countries is bad for the US.

It is really interesting actually

[chuck34]

Really well i dont see any issue with the word was in my post, but who cares right. You WERE taught English different from me at school right old chap?? ;)

Yep. Seperated by a common language, right?

[steve_spackman]

Please do watch the video..its worth the time.

[steve_spackman]

Yep. Seperated by a common language, right?

;)

[chuck34]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N294FMDok98

The Israel Lobby

The people interviewed are US conservitive political scientists members of congress and talks about how the relationship between the countries is bad for the US.

It is really interesting actually

Ok. That is about an hour long. My attention span is not that long right now (I am an American afterall).

But I did get a few seconds into it. And already I have problems with it's "non-bias".

#1) "Iraq is a mess." Maybe but it is getting better all the time.
#2) "Iran is going nuclear". Really? Well lets free the Israelis from UN and US "control" and see about that.
#3) "Israel is demoralised, and the US completely divided." Really?

Do I need to go on from there, or can I already see the bias?

[steve_spackman]

Ok. That is about an hour long. My attention span is not that long right now (I am an American afterall).

But I did get a few seconds into it. And already I have problems with it's "non-bias".

#1) "Iraq is a mess." Maybe but it is getting better all the time.
#2) "Iran is going nuclear". Really? Well lets free the Israelis from UN and US "control" and see about that.
#3) "Israel is demoralised, and the US completely divided." Really?

Do I need to go on from there, or can I already see the bias?

Well watch it when you have more time, its not what you think...

Having Jews and Conservatives being interviewed along with members of congress and even Bush Snr's advisor i dont think its bias!

[chuck34]

Well watch it when you have more time, its not what you think...

Having Jews and Conservatives being interviewed along with members of congress and even Bush Snr's advisor i dont think its bias!

Maybe I'll have time later, but it sure doesn't start out good (well? Grammer sucks :-) ).

[schmenke]

Wait, wait, wait just a minute. GDP has nothing to do with monetary resources? Man I must have really slept through Econ.

Let's review.

1) I say that Israel could wipe the floor with any Arab nation.
2) You say that Israel is backed by the US.
3) I say the Arab nations are backed by the USSR/Russia.
4) You say that we could take away the military backers and the Arab states would crush Israel because they have better economics.
5) I point out that Israel has the 44th highest GDP (actually 42nd according to Wiki *shrug*) in the world.
6) Then you say Economic don't matter.

What is it? Does "backing" matter? Then I pit the US proxy (Israel) against the Russian proxy (Arab States) any day. Reference the 6 Day War.

Or is it Economics? You know, BUYING arms? Then I'll pit the 42nd ranked (Israel) against the 49th (Egypt), or the 68th (Syria), or the 84th (Lebonon), or the 98th (Jordan).

Which one is it?

As far as being surronded by countries that want to wipe you off the map ... Again I think I like my chances with Israel. Have you ever heard of the 6 Day War? If not, you might want to look it up. If ever there was a chance to wipe Israel off the map, that was it. What happened?



Wait, wait, wait just a minute. GDP has nothing to do with monetary resources? ...
I never said that.


...
4) You say that we could take away the military backers and the Arab states would crush Israel because they have better economics....
I never said that.


...
6) Then you say Economic don't matter...
I never said that.


...What is it? Does "backing" matter? Then I pit the US proxy (Israel) against the Russian proxy (Arab States) any day. Reference the 6 Day War.

Or is it Economics? You know, BUYING arms? Then I'll pit the 42nd ranked (Israel) against the 49th (Egypt), or the 68th (Syria), or the 84th (Lebonon), or the 98th (Jordan)...

Russia does not "back" the Arab states. Russia sells arms to them, just as they sell arms to any other country who wants to buy them.
The Arab states are not a Russian "proxy".
The U.S. provides direct military and financial assistance to Israel because they (the U.S.) needs to maintain stability in the region to secure the petroleum resources in that part of the world. The U.S. presence in Israel is the deterrent to war with the Arab states.

[chuck34]

I never said that.


I never said that.


I never said that.



Russia does not "back" the Arab states. Russia sells arms to them, just as they sell arms to any other country who wants to buy them.
The Arab states are not a Russian "proxy".
The U.S. provides direct military and financial assistance to Israel because they (the U.S.) needs to maintain stability in the region to secure the petroleum resources in that part of the world. The U.S. presence in Israel is the deterrent to war with the Arab states.

What exactly are you saying then? I'm saying that even if the US didn't give any aid to Israel, and Russia/China/the West didn't give any aid to the Arab States, that I'd still say Israel is a formidable advisary. You sure seemd to be saying that if the US did give things to Israel that they wouldn't be able to buy what they wanted/needed. So I point out that they have a larger GDP than any of it's neighbors (ie, have more money to BUY things), but you don't care about that fact for some reason.

[Eki]

What exactly are you saying then? I'm saying that even if the US didn't give any aid to Israel, and Russia/China/the West didn't give any aid to the Arab States, that I'd still say Israel is a formidable advisary. You sure seemd to be saying that if the US did give things to Israel that they wouldn't be able to buy what they wanted/needed. So I point out that they have a larger GDP than any of it's neighbors (ie, have more money to BUY things), but you don't care about that fact for some reason.Of course, because they have not had any economical sanctions on them, unlike Iran, Iraq and Libya to name a few. In addition, they are heavily favored by the US in their foreign trade. 35% of Israeli exports go to the US. Before 1990s, about 25% of Finnish exports went to the former Soviet Union. The fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 caused a severe depression in Finland. I'm sure that if Israel's exports to the US suddenly stopped, it would be a heavy blow on Israel.