FIA to sue FOTA immediately

Just been on BBC Radio....

[SGWilko]

Just been on BBC Radio....

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/f1releases/2009/Pages/fota_and_fia.aspx

Cripes, don't anyone let the British GP get in the way of your FIA/FOTA war enjoyment.

Max is m-m-m-m-m-mad sir. He was the one who told them to do it......

[Dave B]

Also here:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76316

I thought Max said the FIA would support a breakaway series. Who'd have thunk it? Max going back on his word? :s

"We now have a conflict and we will see who succeeds in the end. I say to them: If you want to draw up your own rules, then you can organise your own championship. " (source (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75796)) BS, Max.

[Alfa Fan]

No F1 entry list this weekend anymore

[Dave B]

No F1 entry list this weekend anymore
Do you think Max is waiting to see how many of his proposed new teams align themselves with FOTA instead?

[Bezza]

Entry list delayed. Nicely convenient ;)

This will drag on a bit longer, but I now believe a settlement will happen and there will be no breakaway....eventually!

[ioan]

No F1 entry list this weekend anymore

It's rather no more teams left on the list! :D

[ioan]

The FIA’s lawyers have now examined the FOTA threat to begin a breakaway series. The actions of FOTA as a whole, and Ferrari in particular, amount to serious violations of law including wilful interference with contractual relations, direct breaches of Ferrari's legal obligations and a grave violation of competition law. The FIA will be issuing legal proceedings without delay.

Preparations for the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship continue but publication of the final 2010 entry list will be put on hold while the FIA asserts its legal rights.

This was Max's last kick!

The EU Commission will be happy to show him what the European laws about competition say! :laugh:

[Dave B]

Do you think Max is waiting to see how many of his proposed new teams align themselves with FOTA instead?


As the FIA announces that its lawyers are going legal against the FOTA teams, the FIA championship is being weakened by news from the paddock that Prodrive and N Technology and going to be following Lola and withdrawing their applications for the series. Although neither organisation has made any official statements as yet, it is clear that Prodrive’s plans are closely allied to McLaren and will follow the Woking team, while N Technology may not be in a state to pursue the project.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/so-who-are-the-fia-team/

[veeten]

and now, on to Phase Two: Send in the Lawyers.

:p :

This was Max's last kick!

The EU Commission will be happy to show him what the European laws about competition say! :laugh:

Maybe. But Max isn't stupid when it comes to the law, and every contract Bernie has been involved with has been watertight.

[veeten]

and so, ACO-LMS/ALMS will now get the same rewards as NASCAR did after the CART-IRL fallout.

:D :D

[SGWilko]

Maybe. But Max isn't stupid when it comes to the law, and every contract Bernie has been involved with has been watertight.

That's as maybe. But, if Ferrari had a veto - the FIA had a commitment to seek Ferraris' approval on every aspect of rules etc. Did Max seek their approval on the cost cap?

If not - contract not worth wiping the clag from your crack...........

[Dave B]

Wise words from Kimi:


This is nothing to do with sport anymore, it's more politics and more about egos fighting against each other.

It's not really about Formula 1 anymore. It's about who is going to win and who is going to lose. It's sad but that's how it is, and we'll just see what happens.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76318

[Somebody]

Here's the thing - it's obvious that they will at least try and go after Ferrari and the Red Bull teams... but what kick do McLaren, Brawn, Renault, BMW-Sauber and Toyota have coming - i.e., what CAN Maxinamillion sue them for?

[I am evil Homer]

Here's the thing - it's obvious that they will at least try and go after Ferrari and the Red Bull teams... but what kick do McLaren, Brawn, Renault, BMW-Sauber and Toyota have coming - i.e., what CAN Maxinamillion sue them for?

Nothing...that's why Ferrari were specifically mentioned in the press release. FIA thinks (note: thinks) it has an outstanding and binding legal agreement with Ferrari, and we know Williams and FI already do because they told FOTA and were subsequently barred from FOTA.

[Jag_Warrior]

and so, ACO-LMS/ALMS will now get the same rewards as NASCAR did after the CART-IRL fallout.

:D :D

As much as I've loved watching Formula One over the years, maybe it would be a refreshing change to see Ferrari, McLaren, BMW, Toyota and several of the others in the ACO/IMSA series. They could probably run there for three or four years before the political infighting would break out there too.

Maybe these mopes (FIA and FOTA) will wake up before they completely destroy the sport, as has been done in the U.S.

[ioan]

Maybe. But Max isn't stupid when it comes to the law, and every contract Bernie has been involved with has been watertight.

Max and Bernie lost out this time. maybe 10 years ago they could get away without that the EU Commission kicks their sore as$es, but times changed and the EU is starting to work better every day with their powerful arm reaching everyone who think it's smarter.

It's game over for Max.

Next Wednesday there will be a WMSC meeting and things might get ugly for Maxie!

[ioan]

and so, ACO-LMS/ALMS will now get the same rewards as NASCAR did after the CART-IRL fallout.

:D :D

With 5 races per year?! :laugh:
The FOTA will have at least the double of that.

[ykiki]

Sooo......what's to keep the FOTA team from building 2010 cars that meet the "breakaway" series rules, but don't conform to FIA specs? You know, like wings that are a bit oversize and such. They simply show up at the first 2010 FIA F1 race and don't pass inspection. Now they're excluded from the event. In essence, you've forced Max to tell them to go home! It's now up to Max to face the cameras and tell the fans/press/sponsors why there will only be 4 - 6 cars on track for the remainder of the season.

[ioan]

Here's the thing - it's obvious that they will at least try and go after Ferrari and the Red Bull teams... but what kick do McLaren, Brawn, Renault, BMW-Sauber and Toyota have coming - i.e., what CAN Maxinamillion sue them for?

Even Ferrari, RedBull and STR will get out of the courts in better shape than Max!
In todays world you can't force anyone to do something they do not want to do! There's always a way out, it's just the price that needs to be fixed by the court. And given the bad financial situation I can bet the price will not have more than 7 numbers for all of them together.

[ioan]

Nothing...that's why Ferrari were specifically mentioned in the press release. FIA thinks (note: thinks) it has an outstanding and binding legal agreement with Ferrari, and we know Williams and FI already do because they told FOTA and were subsequently barred from FOTA.

Only that the FIA did infringe the agreement already, so Ferrari will simply contend that the agreement is void.

[Dave B]

Full (8m 20s) interview with Max online now:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8109971.stm

[Chaparral66]

and so, ACO-LMS/ALMS will now get the same rewards as NASCAR did after the CART-IRL fallout.

:D :D

NASCAR absolutely benefitted (without hardly lifting a finger) from the CART/Champ Car-IRL "unpleasentness", but it's not as clear (yet) who would benefit form a prolonged conflict between Max & Bernie and the FOTA. One thing is for certain, I'll bet NASCAR is monitoring closely, since they have already gradually begun to reach beyond the US.

Kimi hit it right on the head. This is nothing more than out of control egos and politics being placed ahead of the competition on the racetrack. The open wheel conflict here in the US cost the sport loads of fans, and it seems like F1 is now going to go down this same road. You know what they say about history, those who ignore it are doomed to repeat it...

[ioan]

Full (8m 20s) interview with Max online now:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8109971.stm

Can't see it here. But I suppose is just some Maxie BS.

[AndyL]

Full (8m 20s) interview with Max online now:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8109971.stm

Max's response to being challenged about his "authoritarion style":

"The idea that it's me is a complete myth, I'm the figurehead because I happen to be the president, but I can't move without the authority of all these different countries, 120 countries..."

:crazy:

[Jag_Warrior]

You know what they say about history, those who ignore it are doomed to repeat it...

I absolutely agree with that. I don't see any long term good coming out of this silliness.

What did we learn from the CART/IRL Civil War? One thing, when fans walk away, they tend not to come back. So now fans argue over whether a race rating was a .36 or a .63... roughly what CART used to get for qualifying shows years ago. Sad.

FOTA and the FIA need to get this worked out ASAP. I watched CanAm implode. I watched IMSA implode. I watched TransAm implode. I watched CART/IRL implode. I don't want to see F1 implode.

[Blancvino]

Looks Like ALMS will be my last series to follow.

Anybody up for learning how to fly fish?

[Knock-on]

If they go after Ferrari, then Ferrari need to agree to race F1 next year and the rest of Fota hold tight.

Can't see there being more than 10 cars on the grid which will annull the championship before it starts.

[Triumph]

Full (8m 20s) interview with Max online now:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8109971.stm


Very interesting interview. I think that just about says it all.

:)

[Lennat]

Very interesting interview. I think that just about says it all.

:)

Can't watch it here in Sweden, what did he say?

[ioan]

If they go after Ferrari, then Ferrari need to agree to race F1 next year...

Really? Why? Cause Mosley is the Lord of the rings?!

[ioan]

Can't watch it here in Sweden, what did he say?

Same old rubbish, that the teams will come back in F1 before next year's first race.


I'm now looking forward to Bernie having a heart attack and Maxie threatening with some more lawsuits when FOTA announces next year's race calendar.

[Somebody]

Also here:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76316

I thought Max said the FIA would support a breakaway series. Who'd have thunk it? Max going back on his word? :s

"We now have a conflict and we will see who succeeds in the end. I say to them: If you want to draw up your own rules, then you can organise your own championship. " (source (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75796)) BS, Max.
Here's the thing you have to remember:

Back in the 80s, in the FISA/FOCA war, when Max & Bernie were poachers rather than gamekeepers... their threat to break away was a bluff. Moreover, it was ALWAYS a bluff - they didn't have a ghost in hell's chance of starting a series and they knew it. And they were on the verge of capitulation when Balestre (sp?) himself gave way.

That's informed everything Max has said and done to date - he's been working under the assumption that FOTA now are in the same position as FOCA then. He didn't think they'd go even THIS far, and he probably still thinks they'll give way before next year... but he's probably starting to have doubts round about now...

[Triumph]

Can't watch it here in Sweden, what did he say?

He thinks the breakaway series threats are all talk, and that it's all posturing.

The teams as well as the FIA can't afford not to have a championship.

He thinks that some of the teams will disappear anyway. One, two or maybe three teams he thinks (due to manufacturers' cut-backs in the financial climate).

Ferrari need to be in the championship and he believes it will be sorted out and they will be there.

The rebel teams can't get the backing they need for an alternative series and that eventually they will be back.

The FIA can't negotiate with these teams because everything that is offered gets rejected. The reason for this is that the fundamental position is that they want to take all the financial side away from Bernie Ecclestone and all the governance away from the FIA - and that can't happen.

On criticism of his authoritarian style, Max Mosely says it's a myth because he can't move without the authority granted by the heads of motorsport in each country (World Council members I presume). He says he is just the figurehead. He says that the regulations that are being complained about were all agreed last year (by all teams except Ferrari) and that it all went through a World Council comprising members from all the major countries.

Mosley said that first the rebel teams will have to get rid of him, but he said that whoever replaced him would defend the interests of the FIA because the championship belongs to them. He said that if he dropped dead tomorrow, whoever replaced him would take the same position (implying same attitude and approach).

He reiterated that the rebel teams want to take over and run it their way, including taking the money away from Bernie Ecclestone, but pointed out that any replacement for him (and the same goes for Ecclestone's organization) would hold the same position, so it wouldn't resolve the issue. He said that (words to the effect of) the rebel teams would keep on and on until they got what they wanted.

When asked that if the price of peace was him stepping down, would he do it, he said yes, but went on to reiterate that the rebel teams would want that person to go, and so on, until they got control.

He says that all the attacks on the FIA are counter-productive with regard to getting rid of him because the FIA want him to stay and deal with the crisis. If there was peace he said that there would be a better chance of him stepping down.

He says it's all posturing and posing, and that it will all settle down, or that the trouble will stop before the first race next year.

It will have an effect on the teams because the sponsors will be putting pressure on the teams to sort it out. He says that the people with the money will want it sorted out before the teams get their sponsorship money.

He thinks that there is only a 'very small' chance of there not being a British GP next year and personally he thinks it will be at Silverstone.

He is 'completely confident' that there will be just one Formula 1 next year. It's in the interests of the teams to be in the Formula 1 World Championships, and that they will do what is in their interest.

He went onto say that there is no fundamental or even important issue that is stopping them from taking part. It's all about personalities and power, and who can grab what from whom, which is easy when nothing's at stake, but once we get to the first race and it's 'make your mind up time', they will be there.

:)

[ioan]

On criticism of his authoritarian style, Max Mosely says it's a myth

How convenient.

[Lennat]

Thanks a lot Triumph! :)

[Triumph]

You're welcome, Lennat :)

Mosley is in his element with this kind of conflict. He knows exactly how to work it. I wouldn't be surprised if things happen just as he is suggesting.

[Somebody]

It's all about personalities and power, and who can grab what from whom, which is easy when nothing's at stake, but once we get to the first race and it's 'make your mind up time', they will be there.
But, by definition, it's "make your mind up time" not at the first race, but long, long before that since a car needs to be built and an entry ratified.

And the deadline for the latter was last week to submit an unconditional entry, of course, and Max blinked. And then again today, and FOTA pre-empted it by announcing they wouldn't sign up. And Max has suspended the announcement of the final entry list yet again in consequence rather than pushing ahead without at least five of them as he promised again and again to do.

[UltimateDanGTR]

This will drag on a bit longer, but I now believe a settlement will happen and there will be no breakaway....eventually!

dont be so pesimistic! :p

[emporer_k]

This was Max's last kick!

The EU Commission will be happy to show him what the European laws about competition say! :laugh:

I'd wager a large sum that max comes off second best if he starts suing fota members over competition law.

[ioan]

BTW it looks like Ferrari are one step ahead as they already started legal proceedings against the FIA! :D

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=38228

[markabilly]

Unfortunately MaXie is master at machevillian el extremo, and given that talent, I suspicion he will divide and conquer, bernie will give him another 300 million dollar "gift", and ferrari will get another sweetheart deal and maybe the old veto back or whatever......................

i hope NOT, but who has not noticed his talents at scheming that are beyond compare, plus his talents with the legal system..........?????????????

[Valve Bounce]

I suggest that everyone take a step back, and read all the news coming out of Autosport and Pitpass, BBC, and whatever news outlet from a NEUTRAL stance.

It is very interesting how all this is developing and where it is all heading. If you stand back and read it with an unbiased viewpoint, you will notice a helluva lot of posturing but not much real action going on.

It is like two very young school kids arguing over a bag of marbles and threatening to call their mothers if one or the other doesn't get back his marbles.

Whatever happens, I see an outcome where there will only be one series next year, and it will feature all the FOTA teams plus whoever else has the money and backing to run a team.

Does anyone else really have a different view?

[gloomyDAY]

FOTA got the chutzpah to say they're going to break from the FIA.

How? You must be crazy to think that FOTA can simultaneously draft an entire rulebook, build new cars, setup race weekends, and do a host of other chores in a time span of less than 1 year.

Max is going to call their bluff, so the teams' better not be bluffing.

[ClarkFan]

I suggest that everyone take a step back, and read all the news coming out of Autosport and Pitpass, BBC, and whatever news outlet from a NEUTRAL stance.

It is very interesting how all this is developing and where it is all heading. If you stand back and read it with an unbiased viewpoint, you will notice a helluva lot of posturing but not much real action going on.

It is like two very young school kids arguing over a bag of marbles and threatening to call their mothers if one or the other doesn't get back his marbles.

Whatever happens, I see an outcome where there will only be one series next year, and it will feature all the FOTA teams plus whoever else has the money and backing to run a team.

Does anyone else really have a different view?

Valve,
I follow the money, and the money says that everyone has too much to lose from a break-up. FOTA would lose the brand recognition of the Formula One World Championship. The FIA would lose the association of the teams that make the F1WC the top international racing brand. The total losses in value could easily reach into 10 figures (euros, pounds or dollars, pick your favorite currency). And RBS would get the opportunity to write off a multi-billion GBP note to CVC. Sounds like the definition of "scorched earth" to me.

No rational business person would choose to pursue that path, given any reasonable alternative (and this is business, not Sport). Now, Max's recent statements seem to call his rationality into question. Either that is an act or it really is defective brain chemistry at work, but I doubt that Max will play for long in this drama if he keeps this up. FIA presidents can be replaced or suddenly take ill, and with a cooler voice in place the desire of everyone to get back in off the ledge will lead to a quick compromise.

Which is not to say that all is well with the current competitive rules. Max is an ass, but his concern about a static field is correct. The effect of the Concorde based F1 world has been a closed shop, with it being preferable to purchase a rotting corpse (Minardi, Midland) over starting a genuinely new team. But Max has then failed to pursue a rule making environment to make the sport more efficient. F1 has still pursued new "formulas," with each new regime making the past generation of expensive designs obsolete. Simpler rule making based on fuel flows and total size/displacement of aerodynamic devices (including ground effects) would make it easier for FIA to tweak the rules (keeping speeds bearable) without turning a whole generation of cars into scrap metal and pencil leads.

ClarkFan

[airshifter]

I suggest that everyone take a step back, and read all the news coming out of Autosport and Pitpass, BBC, and whatever news outlet from a NEUTRAL stance.

It is very interesting how all this is developing and where it is all heading. If you stand back and read it with an unbiased viewpoint, you will notice a helluva lot of posturing but not much real action going on.

It is like two very young school kids arguing over a bag of marbles and threatening to call their mothers if one or the other doesn't get back his marbles.

Whatever happens, I see an outcome where there will only be one series next year, and it will feature all the FOTA teams plus whoever else has the money and backing to run a team.

Does anyone else really have a different view?

I don't think FOTA are bluffing, and I don't think Max has the court case he seems to think he does. At this point I see them (FOTA) as holding the cards. But having said that, I think Max could have saved the situation and chose not to do so.

I'm not so sure that FOTA can put together a breakaway series in a years time, at least not in on the track racing form. So it's possible either way that next year F1 as it exists in Max's world will be the only series and suck for entertainment value to enthusiasts. Then the new FOTA series will be ready to go to replace it soon after.

I honestly think FOTA were much more reasonable in what they wanted and their stake in the sport. I just think Max played hardball too long and at this point FOTA would have no trust even if he backed down suddenly and gave in to what they want.

[wmcot]

I expect that one of three things will happen:

1. Bernie will support Max, who is really crazy enough to think that dragging this through courts for years will actually be good for the sport. The manufacturers will say f-off and leave.

2. Max will compromise, but twist the situation so that he appears to be the savior of F1. Then he'll continue with the same old crap.

3. Max will be removed and sanity will be restored with a cooler-headed FIA president.

[ioan]

Unfortunately MaXie is master at machevillian el extremo, and given that talent, I suspicion he will divide and conquer, bernie will give him another 300 million dollar "gift", and ferrari will get another sweetheart deal and maybe the old veto back or whatever......................

i hope NOT, but who has not noticed his talents at scheming that are beyond compare, plus his talents with the legal system..........?????????????

Beyond compare?!
We are talking about a failed politician here! :laugh:

Now that the FOTA are united, and have the manufacturers support (read all the European political support) Max is done for good.

[ioan]

How? You must be crazy to think that FOTA can simultaneously draft an entire rulebook, build new cars, setup race weekends, and do a host of other chores in a time span of less than 1 year.

The rules will be the same as now, and the car are already built (something the majority of the FIA teams can only dream about!).
The FOTA will set up a structure that will start organizing the series for them! 9 months are more than enough to sign the needed contracts especially if they offer a much better deal than what Bernie offers! :D

Starting with a mainly Europe based series for the first few months will give them time to iron out any logistic problems that they might encounter for the flyaway races.

There's plenty of time!

[AndyL]

Whatever happens, I see an outcome where there will only be one series next year, and it will feature all the FOTA teams plus whoever else has the money and backing to run a team.

Does anyone else really have a different view?

Sure, it's by far the most likely outcome.

But the question of whether FOTA are bluffing... I think it's almost irrelevant at this stage whether they are bluffing or not. Regardless of whether they actually intend to break away, if they want to use that threat as leverage then they have to give it weight by genuinely preparing the breakaway series.
Given that, I can see things getting so out of hand that they end up pushed into carrying it through even if they don't currently intend to. Not probable, but possible.

[markabilly]

I

Does anyone else really have a different view?


No, but I have different hopes........ :(

[Malbec]

I suggest that everyone take a step back, and read all the news coming out of Autosport and Pitpass, BBC, and whatever news outlet from a NEUTRAL stance.

It is very interesting how all this is developing and where it is all heading. If you stand back and read it with an unbiased viewpoint, you will notice a helluva lot of posturing but not much real action going on.

Whatever happens, I see an outcome where there will only be one series next year, and it will feature all the FOTA teams plus whoever else has the money and backing to run a team.

Does anyone else really have a different view?

I quite agree. Whilst I believe FOTA has the power to launch a new series its so late that season 1 in 2010 will be a ramshackle affair, how are they going to sign up and promote new tracks and ensure safety standards are kept? I'll believe the breakaway series when concrete contracts are signed.

I see this as a plan to remove Max from the scene and continue everything else unchanged. Its interesting that Bernie is being very opaque, he usually is when he's planning something special. He's up to something.

[ioan]

I quite agree. Whilst I believe FOTA has the power to launch a new series its so late that season 1 in 2010 will be a ramshackle affair, how are they going to sign up and promote new tracks and ensure safety standards are kept?

There is no need at all to use new tracks!
All the European tracks are free to hold a FOTA race.
Than you have the North American tracks, which are up to the F1 safety standards.
Than there is Fuji that is up to F1 standards too!

Looks to me that they can easily have at least 15 tracks, that are up to today's f1 safety standards, at disposal in Europe, US, Canada and Japan!

All they need is to sign the tracks and the TV broadcasters and it's job done! And 9 months are enough to do that 3 times!

[Bagwan]

There are a lot of contracts to be sorted .

But , there are a lot of imminent contract breaches coming soon .

BBC isn't happy with a no-name grid , and I'm sure are waiting for the final numbers , to jump from the contract based rather on lack of teams , rather than quality .
If Bernie can't field enough cars , contract done , and new contract with FOTA imminent .

The same should hold for all the tracks , as a guarantee of a certain minimum is contracted .
Any race organizer seeing the series in this shape will opt out and be on the phone with FOTA right now , as the weekend that Bernie booked is now open .

This situation is like , in a way , to the teams merely switching to the back-up car after an incident where the driver had no control.
It's the same design , but this one won't be so bent up .