Breakaway series is go!

[Powered by Cosworth]

Reckon they're just squeezing the FIAs balls or what?



The Formula One Teams' Association announced on Thursday night that it is setting up a breakaway championship.
Following a four hour meeting at Renault's Enstone factory, the eight members of FOTA said it had grown frustrated with the FIA's stance against it and that it had no option but to create its own championship.
"The teams cannot continue to compromise on the fundamental values of the sport and have declined to alter their original conditional entries to the 2010 World Championship," said a statement.
"These teams therefore have no alternative other than to commence the preparation for a new Championship which reflects the values of its participants and partners. This series will have transparent governance, one set of regulations, encourage more entrants and listen to the wishes of the fans, including offering lower prices for spectators worldwide, partners and other important stakeholders.
"The major drivers, stars, brands, sponsors, promoters and companies historically associated with the highest level of motorsport will all feature in this new series."
More to follow.

[Ghostwalker]

where did you read that? a link please!

[Powered by Cosworth]

oops sorry about that!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76292

[ioan]

Good!

[Lennat]

Holy crap, they did it...

I will certainly follow this rather then the official F3 deluxe thing which will be called F1, but let's hope that they manage to get hold of the good tracks and such so that we can still enjoy some top class racing in this new series.

[harvick#1]

So does F1 officially die now, with everyone leaving, this might as well force Cosworth to supply engines to everyone.

its great they did this, now all they got to do is build the cars like they were in 2008.

[ioan]

So does F1 officially die now, with everyone leaving, this might as well force Cosworth to supply engines to everyone.

Everyone who?! Williams and Force India? And maybe a couple more teams that might really manage to find the money needed to field to cars next year!

[Powered by Cosworth]

I can see the FIA come crawling back, with all the established teams, and thus fans, going to the new series, I can't see Formula Three deluxe edition (nice one lennat lmao) getting anywhere. At least the FIA will get their spec-engine series, good news for Cosworth I guess.

[Lennat]

So does F1 officially die now, with everyone leaving, this might as well force Cosworth to supply engines to everyone.

its great they did this, now all they got to do is build the cars like they were in 2008.

Why do you want 2008 style cars? Except from the Brawn dominance i prefer how they are this year. :)

But of course, something a little bit more 1997 like (wider, V10s...) would be even better. ;)

[ioan]

"These teams therefore have no alternative other than to commence the preparation for a new Championship which reflects the values of its participants and partners. This series will have transparent governance, one set of regulations, encourage more entrants and listen to the wishes of the fans, including offering lower prices for spectators worldwide, partners and other important stakeholders.

"The major drivers, stars, brands, sponsors, promoters and companies historically associated with the highest level of motorsport will all feature in this new series."

This sounds great!
Everything the FIA and Bernie never wanted to offer!

[harvick#1]

Everyone who?! Williams and Force India? And maybe a couple more teams that might really manage to find the money needed to field to cars next year!

I guess I should've said the engine suppliers :laugh: whos gonna pick up the bill

[ykiki]

Makes me wonder what happens with all of the "new" teams that have submitted applications to the FIA for 2010. Are they stuck with F3 deluxe (that is a great name Lennat) or can they take FOTA up on their following statement:

This series will have transparent governance, one set of regulations, encourage more entrants and listen to the wishes of the fans, including offering lower prices for spectators worldwide, partners and other important stakeholders.

[Motorsportfun]

Oh dear, FOTA's new series will die in a couple of years... they're not organized for what concern promotion, tv production (who will be as good as FOM?), regulations... :rolleyes:

...it looks like the IRL/CHAMP CAR breakaway period! Everyone has been injured from that. I'm sure it will happen again! :(

[CNR]

The inclusion of Ferrari, Red Bull Racing and Scuderia Toro Rosso on that roster remains open to debate, however, with the FIA claiming that the teams committed themselves to F1 in a deal agreed several years ago.


i think Red Bull Racing will use this a Red Bull Junior driver program

what driver have a contract with fota
Jenson Button
Rubens Barrichello ?
Sebastian Vettel
Mark Webber ?
Jarno Trulli ?
Timo Glock ?
Nico Rosberg
Felipe Massa
Fernando Alonso
Kimi Räikkönen ?
Lewis Hamilton
Nick Heidfeld ?
Heikki Kovalainen ?
Sebastien Buemi
Robert Kubica

could we see Ferrari f1 drivers
Sebastien Bourdais ?
Nelsinho Piquet ?
in 2010

? will redbull run the 2 teams

[ioan]

Oh dear, FOTA's new series will die in a couple of years... they're not organized for what concern promotion, tv production (who will be as good as FOM?), regulations... :rolleyes:

...it looks like the IRL/CHAMP CAR breakaway period! Everyone has been injured from that. I'm sure it will happen again! :(

Bugger off!
You talk about the worlds biggest manufacturer like if they would be as doff as you are.

[AndyL]

Looks like we will be coming back to Silverstone next year after all!

[ioan]

Looks like we will be coming back to Silverstone next year after all!

While Donington holds a 17 years contract with Formula 3!

[woody2goody]

Rosberg doesn't have a FOTA contract.

So next year we will have:

Williams
Force India
USF1
Manor
Campos

and who else I wonder?

[ioan]

Rosberg doesn't have a FOTA contract.

So next year we will have:

Williams
Force India
USF1
Manor
Campos

and who else I wonder?

I doubt even these will all be there!

[CNR]

Oh dear, FOTA's new series will die in a couple of years... they're not organized for what concern promotion, tv production (who will be as good as FOM?), regulations... :rolleyes:

...it looks like the IRL/CHAMP CAR breakaway period! Everyone has been injured from that. I'm sure it will happen again! :(

this is just one example
take v8 supercars in australia
they were told that they were not welcome at bathurst because no one wanted them there
and now v8 supercar is the major series in australia

[woody2goody]

This seems to boil down to di Montezemolo's belligerence in protecting Ferrari's interests. President of Ferrari AND FOTA. Hmm.

Personally I don't care if these teams aren't in F1. I'll watch the other series but I won't necessarily follow it more than F1 2010.

[Hondo]

Times has it too.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6532456.ece

Want to bet Lola, Richards, and Astin-Martin show up with FOTA?

[Powered by Cosworth]

I bet all the TV rights holders are pissed. They've paid all this money for F1, which carries with it a fanbase of millions, and now they're left with the F3 expansion pack, F3 Deluxe, which carries with it all those thousands of F3, Williams and Force India fans.

[ioan]

This seems to boil down to di Montezemolo's belligerence in protecting Ferrari's interests. President of Ferrari AND FOTA. Hmm.

Personally I don't care if these teams aren't in F1. I'll watch the other series but I won't necessarily follow it more than F1 2010.

Oh the Ferrari haters, they always try hard! :laugh:

[ioan]

I bet all the TV rights holders are pissed. They've paid all this money for F1, which carries with it a fanbase of millions, and now they're left with the F3 expansion pack, F3 Deluxe, which carries with it all those thousands of F3, Williams and Force India fans.

Bernie will have a busy time in courts from now on, and he might be handing back cash at a high rate!

[Powered by Cosworth]

Bernie handing OUT cash!? :eek:

Are you mad!? He's probably running for the border as we speak

[yodasarmpit]

Well the **** has really hit the fan now, is this just a major bluff or are they for real???

It would be sad to loose these teams from F1 but F1 will continue, new teams will become the Ferrari and McLaren for future generations.

Looks like I'll have twice as much open wheel racing to watch next season :)
Although, I hope the time it takes for them to re-unify is quicker than the IRL/CART mess.

[ioan]

Bernie handing OUT cash!? :eek:

Are you mad!? He's probably running for the border as we speak

Or he bought a shotgun and he's hunting down Max! :D

[yodasarmpit]

Or he bought a shotgun and he's hunting down Max! :D
:D

[VkmSpouge]

Well there you go. FOTA and the FIA have proved that despite being made of some individually very clever people, they are collectively possessing the intelligence of a dung beetle and show they have learnt absolutely nothing from the Indycar split.

A split is an incredibly bad thing for Formula 1 and it is a shame that neither side have been able to put aside their own self-interests for the good of the sport and the fans but I forget the sport and the fans haven't been the centre of the Formula 1 world for quite sometime.

Lets see how the FIA gets on with it's 5 teams (and whatever reserves there are) and FOTA with it's 8 teams (assuming Renault and Toyota don't use this moment as an excuse to jump out of F1 altogether) get on in their two weaker championships.

[ioan]

How much weaker is a championship that has Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, BrawnGP, RedBUll, Toyota and STR without Williams and Force India?!

You dare compare the FOTA teams with Williams and Force India? Don't forget that USF1, Manor and Campos don't even have the wheels for their Deluxe f3 cars.

[woody2goody]

I bet all the TV rights holders are pissed. They've paid all this money for F1, which carries with it a fanbase of millions, and now they're left with the F3 expansion pack, F3 Deluxe, which carries with it all those thousands of F3, Williams and Force India fans.

It's amazing how snobbish a lot of people are about the new teams. How do you think McLaren, Ferrari, etc started?

Also BMW was Sauber, Force India was Jordan, privateer teams. Really McLaren and Ferrari should be seen as independents, because they only make cars to fund F1, or at least that used to be Ferrari's aim.

Anyway, Campos are dominating GP2, and I hope F1 does get 10-13 teams, because then we may see a proper racing series devoid of scheming and favouritism.

Ioan, you know I don't hate Ferrari, they just get on my nerves. We all know Max is an idiot but the FOTA teams are behaving childishly to be honest. Anyway, we know the saying, if you don't like it get out, and they have. Disappointed in Brawn and RBR/STR, the independent teams should stick together.

[Powered by Cosworth]

I'm not sure about who owns what, but Bernie is president of FOM? If he decided to jump ship, I'm sure he could just tip-ex out Formula One from the contracts and write in FOTA-1 or whatever it'll be called? No? I haven't a clue really, I can imagine its a complete mess of contracts and who owns what etc..

[VkmSpouge]

How much weaker is a championship that has Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, BrawnGP, RedBUll, Toyota and STR without Williams and Force India?!

You dare compare the FOTA teams with Williams and Force India? Don't forget that USF1, Manor and Campos don't even have the wheels for their Deluxe f3 cars.

On sheer grid numbers it is 20% weaker. And I'd happily compare Williams to any of those FOTA teams with the exception of McLaren and Ferrari.
Of course looking the two camps you can clearly see the FOTA championship has the better team and driver line-up, but in no way would it ever be as strong as one unified F1 championship.

[ioan]

Ioan, you know I don't hate Ferrari, they just get on my nerves.

Well, I hope you will love USF1, Campos f1 and Manor whatever!

[ioan]

On sheer grid numbers it is 20% weaker.


Care to elaborate?!
Please do list the 10 FIA teams!

[ioan]

I'm not sure about who owns what, but Bernie is president of FOM? If he decided to jump ship, I'm sure he could just tip-ex out Formula One from the contracts and write in FOTA-1 or whatever it'll be called? No? I haven't a clue really, I can imagine its a complete mess of contracts and who owns what etc..

Not really!
CVC own F1 rights and FOTA doesn't want to pay for their debts, so no there will be no CVC FOTA contract.

[woody2goody]

Well, I hope you will love USF1, Campos f1 and Manor whatever!

Why not? Why should we not love these teams as much as the others.

I'm annoyed with this as much as you. I've grown up with McLaren, Ferrari, (BMW) Sauber, Toyota, Renault, etc, but there were times when those teams struggled and were small, and had no money.

This notion of 'Formula GP3' is a disgrace, and these comments were made by people who should know better. Not to pick on Alonso, but he drove for Minardi at first. A VERY small team who did well just to compete. I dare say most of the new teams will be more competitive than Minardi even in their first year. (I loved Minardi I'm just making a point.)

Mark Webber drove for Minardi. Massa drove for Sauber. As did Raikkonen. Glock drove for Jordan. Trulli drove for Minardi. Heidfeld drove for Jordan at their lowest point.

All the aforementioned guys, and anyone else with the same situation shouldn't be mocking and frankly insulting these new teams. People didn't say the same about Super Aguri, Midland, Spyker, Force India (I know the last three were the same team).

Give the new guys a chance and see what they can make of their opportunity. This is THE chance to cement their legacy.

[Somebody]

*wonders if they still have that GPWC trademark lying around...*


Rosberg doesn't have a FOTA contract.
Nor does he have an F3d contract. He's out of contract at the end of the season, and BMW were rumoured to be going after him

[yodasarmpit]

How long before FOTA collapses??
They have, in their eyes, a common enemy at the moment and that's what holds them together.
When they are the ones running the sport week in and week out it'll be a different matter.
Can you just imagine the in fighting between the teams if they are running the show between them, sheer madness.

Next season is certainly going to be interesting, that's for sure.
I wish both series well, if it does in fact happen.

[Koz]

5 hours ago when I woke up and had a look up here to see on any development, and read the thread on the FOTA compromise, I though to myself "Geez this seemed good but all this was all a crappy little publicity stunt and everyone will back down and kiss Mister Max's you-know-what."
Now this is good news, but I think something bad may come of this.

Mister Max and Mister Midget will sue the teams, and in the end each other. And in the end will probably end as a catastrophic mess for all involved. But hopefully it won't.

Let FIA run their spec series, and let have FOTA have their own.

Mister Max telling FOTA to start their own series... Could that be used in a legal context?

(ioan for FOTA chairman!! :) )

[cosmicpanda]

I wish them well. But I think that eventually politics will screw them up, just as politics screwed F1.

[race_director]

The best part is that the series will be Free to AIr. so i expect atleast 3-4 channels to broadcast it live, like MOTO GP

No more listening to Steve Slater, ALex Young and chirs goodwin next year :)

By the way we can see alex young , narian kartikeyan. sato, all next year

[Tazio]

SwxLsU69EsM&feature=related

[race_director]

today will be a great day, Ross Brawn (Brawn GP), Christian Horner (Red Bull), Adam Parr (Williams) and Martin Whitmarsh (McLaren). all gonna attend the press conference

[mstillhere]

where did you read that? a link please!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8108488.stm

[Giuseppe F1]

OMG, they did it!!!

This is gonna get sooooo messy!

My main fear is how will TV coverage be for the new series?

Will Bridgestone be allowed to supply the FOTA series or is their deal F1 only?

Will this now just cause a flurry of activity which means a compromise will have to hbe reached before the end of the year to prevent a breakaway occuring???

If more new teams are granted entried however, I cant see how it can otherwise well have 16 odd teams????

[mstillhere]

Reckon they're just squeezing the FIAs balls or what? [/I]

WOW!! This is historic. Finally Mosley is dumped. I bet you Bernie wont be happy. He'll have to split his revenue with FOTA. I for one, can't wait for the beginning of the new champioship. I bet you it will be revolutionary. F1 will be back again to be the most sofisticated, technological advanced and challenging car racing ever. For those who like to watch the Campos team and hear the glorious Cosworth engines, I wish them a "really" good time in the memory lane. I bet you any money, in no time, without the most prestigious teams in its ranks, FIA will go down the drain.

[grantb4]

Yay! If for no other reason the Mosley gets his due. He's run amok and it's finally come home to roost.

[Valve Bounce]

Reckon they're just squeezing the FIAs balls or what?


[/I]

Contrary to claims here, the new series will NOT be Powered by Cosworth!! :p :

Having said that and on the more serious side, I just wonder whether this will save Silverstone as a venue for next year's FOTA championship's British race.

More to follow.

[mwr120675]

Get the popcorn ready this is going to be good!

[gloomyDAY]

Get the popcorn ready this is going to be good!http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e191/General_Ridley/MichealJacksonPopcorn.gif

[Ent]

Well, its pretty obvious from this thread and others in other forum who the fans will support. The FIA will end up with just another lower formula competition. For most people, "F1" will simply shift name to whatever FOTA wants to call it and continue on, minus Max, Bernie and the tracks that F1 use.

The question is, what tracks would you recommend for each country, taking into account the current ones would be contractually obliged to not hold FOTA events.

Australia: Could return to Adelaide.
UK: Silverstone will be available from next year.
US: Thanks to Max/Bernie killing the US GP, all tracks would be OK.
Canada: Same as US.
Japan: Fuji? Not sure of the situation with Suzuka, which is owned by Honda.

Others...?

[Valve Bounce]

Or he bought a shotgun and he's hunting down Max! :D
Whip, man, whip. Max likes whips!!

[Valve Bounce]

Why not? Why should we not love these teams as much as the others.

I'm annoyed with this as much as you. I've grown up with McLaren, Ferrari, (BMW) Sauber, Toyota, Renault, etc, but there were times when those teams struggled and were small, and had no money.

This notion of 'Formula GP3' is a disgrace, and these comments were made by people who should know better. Not to pick on Alonso, but he drove for Minardi at first. A VERY small team who did well just to compete. I dare say most of the new teams will be more competitive than Minardi even in their first year. (I loved Minardi I'm just making a point.)

Mark Webber drove for Minardi. Massa drove for Sauber. As did Raikkonen. Glock drove for Jordan. Trulli drove for Minardi. Heidfeld drove for Jordan at their lowest point.

All the aforementioned guys, and anyone else with the same situation shouldn't be mocking and frankly insulting these new teams. People didn't say the same about Super Aguri, Midland, Spyker, Force India (I know the last three were the same team).

Give the new guys a chance and see what they can make of their opportunity. This is THE chance to cement their legacy.

A voice in the wilderness. The only relevant word here is cement. :rolleyes:

[Cozzie]

As much as I have longed for a breakaway I really do hope they avoid doing what happened in the US in the nineties with the IRL/ChampCar war.

Opens up lots of questions though:

Circuits?
Drivers?
TV?
What will happen for the remainder of 08?
Will Max make an attempt to reconcile once the ego dies down and he realises what he has lost?
Will Max pick up anyone he can for F3+?
What will Lola make of the situation?

This is gonna be good...

[Easy Drifter]

I do not think it is over yet.
I feel that some compromise will still occur. That said I expect Mad Max will be toast. Maybe not immediately, but very soon.
If the break does occur the Demented Midget just might eventually side with the FOTA teams, if they let him. I wouldn't count on that.
He will try and go where he thinks there is the most money to be made.
Although logistics and finances might be a problem I see no reason why a track could not hold races for both the FIA F1 and FOTA. The tracks the Demented Midget controls, Turkey for example, will go where he goes.
As far as tires go I expect Michelin would be in there like a dirty shirt if they can. They have no love for the FIA. Bridgestone could easily supply FOTA as Firestone and continue as Bridgestone with the FIA.
The drivers will go as their contracts demand, or when they expire where the money is.
All said and done a split will hurt the sport immensely. All you have to do is look at the IRL/CART/CC mess.
One big difference is the FIA do not control any track of the importance that Indy was/is in the US.
Monaco is closest but they could easily go FOTA or even run 2 races.
The FIA does have one strong card in the threat to lift licences/sanctions/track permits.
Mad Max has said they won't but we know how good his word is.
Of course, FOTA can play the FIM card which probably would at least partially offset a FIA ban.
If they do split I expect Williams and Force India will lose their engine suppliers and go with Cosworth so Mad Max will basically be closer to his spec series.
Again I still think an agreement will be reached. Probably not for a few weeks.
Unfortunately I have been wrong before!
I wonder what would happen, because of their contracts, if Ferrari, Red Bull and Torro Rosso showed up at the first FIA race next year with the current cars, which would be totally illegal. Even if they were allowed to race they would run out of fuel part way through. Then what Mad Max? :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

Well, its pretty obvious from this thread and others in other forum who the fans will support. The FIA will end up with just another lower formula competition. For most people, "F1" will simply shift name to whatever FOTA wants to call it and continue on, minus Max, Bernie and the tracks that F1 use.

The question is, what tracks would you recommend for each country, taking into account the current ones would be contractually obliged to not hold FOTA events.

Australia: Could return to Adelaide.
UK: Silverstone will be available from next year.
US: Thanks to Max/Bernie killing the US GP, all tracks would be OK.
Canada: Same as US.
Japan: Fuji? Not sure of the situation with Suzuka, which is owned by Honda.

Others...?

This is interesting. Are the tracks contractually obliged to hold an F1 race, rather than NOT to hold any other race?

For instance, Albert Park is actually a public road, and what is to prevent the Melbourne City Council from holding a race , any race there later in the year ?(except for the local people who may object to the noise and disruption, which is something else).

Then, there are tracks all over Europe that are not being used for F1 and which would be suitable for FOTA. If we tried hard, we could probably name around 16 tracks easily.

Ferrari is the key here, always. Whither they go, most of the other teams would follow. The other key collective are the drivers. The only decent driver left in F1 will be Rosberg.

[wmcot]

Rosberg doesn't have a FOTA contract.

So next year we will have:

Williams
Force India
USF1
Manor
Campos

and who else I wonder?

Does it matter?

[VkmSpouge]

Care to elaborate?!
Please do list the 10 FIA teams!

I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick of what I was trying to say; I was comparing the 2009 championship with the 10 current teams to the proposed breakaway 2010 FOTA series of 8 teams.
Of course at the moment the 2010 FIA championship will be 50% weaker in terms of grid numbers and despite the number of new teams applying for entry, I seriously doubt all of them would be able to enter next year.
So there will be two weaker series though I must say FOTA's series looks more likely succeed simply because it does have all the big names.

[F1boat]

First, I want to say that while I never supported the idea of a new championship, I think that FOTA could not have stayed with F1 any longer. FIA proved that it wants artificial slow and cheap series like the WTCC or F2. Both are incredibly dull in my opinion. Also, contrary to woody and yoda, I don't care about campos, manor or whatever effort the new F1 has. It is one thing to beat the established teams, like Ross Brawn did, sacrificing the last two seasons. It is quite another when the rules are changed to be comfortable for the nobodies. I will NOT watch a Formula One championship without Ross, Ferrari, McLaren or Renault or without Kimi, Fernando or Jenson. I wish all the worst luck to the Formula One Remnant, to the crazy sadistic pervert Max Mosley, who did all to create dull spec series, kudos for ruining my favorite sport, you old scum. Same for the greedy ugly midget Bernie.
Then again I would have preferred the FOTA teams to enter Le Mans racing as I would have loved to see a Ferrari LMP 1 car. Still, from what I know Dorna may organize the new series and they will likely do a good job. I wish the new series, if it comes to that, best luck. But FOTA should not come back to F1 until Max, Bernie and the corrupted, fascist way the FIA is governed, are gone.

[wmcot]

It's amazing how snobbish a lot of people are about the new teams. How do you think McLaren, Ferrari, etc started?



I would bet the new teams would be more than welcome in the FOTA series! They might even get help with customer chassis, engines, and other components.

[race_director]

i also thinking that NICO, FISI, SUTIL and KAZUKI will also jump to the other boat if they get a chance.

I wonder if flavio will carry Nelson with him to new series.

does it also mean that all existing contracts will null and viod. so we can see a lot of jumbling going around in the new series. i would to see SATO back

[VkmSpouge]

What will happen for the remainder of 08?


Lewis Hamilton will win the 2008 Drivers' World Championship in an incredible final lap at Interlagos but I don't think we should be worrying about 2008 right now :p :

[wmcot]

First, I want to say that while I never supported the idea of a new championship, I think that FOTA could not have stayed with F1 any longer..

I agree. While a split may be a big risk, it has to be better than life under Max's dictatorial iron fist! Sort of a parallel with what's happening in Iran at the moment?

[wmcot]

I wonder if flavio will carry Nelson with him to new series.


Nelsinho could stay and be 2010 WDC in the FIA's F3+ series. ;)

[Easy Drifter]

Also nothing stopping other teams from joining FOTA. I would expect FOTA to welcome more teams.
Should FOTA's rules allow diesels, in say 2011, maybe Audi and/or Peugeot.
Maybe Aston Martin next year.

[Dave B]

I can see this being yet more posturing and bargaining.

Max will say "go on then, close the door on your way out" then wait until the teams have wasted millions on setting up their new championship; only to invite them back to F1 with a few compromises for 2010.

This is typical Max, and I grudgingly admire his M.O.: make ludicrous demands, refuse to compromise, take it to the brink, then appear to compromise - ending up with what he wanted at the first place and making the teams look like the bad guys.

Part of me hopes this new series goes ahead - but I'm 99% sure a compromise will be found.

[F1boat]

You are right, Dave, and that's why F1 teams should not come back to FIA until the crazy fascist is gone.

[Daniel]

I hope no compromise is found. Bernie and Max are poisoning F1. If you look at the WRC just a few short years ago it was in a great position and now it's nothing. For F1 to survive in spirit this needs to happen.

[wmcot]

You are right, Dave, and that's why F1 teams should not come back to FIA until the crazy fascist is gone.

And the Putty Dwarf, too!

[wmcot]

I hope no compromise is found. Bernie and Max are poisoning F1. If you look at the WRC just a few short years ago it was in a great position and now it's nothing. For F1 to survive in spirit this needs to happen.

I can't see a compromise until Max is gone. Then maybe Bernie will be able to bring the teams back IF he reasons with them. True F1 has always been about freedom and innovation, NOT about making an open-wheel NASCAR series.

Actually, Bernie could make an offer to both series by allowing the FIA F3+ as the warm-up race for the Real F1!

[ArrowsFA1]

The one man who has remained very quiet recently is Bernie. It's hard to imagine him sat at home watching this mucking fess and doing nothing about it. Although his once legendary ability to 'sort' things has waned in recent times he is still a major player and I do wonder which side he will ultimately come down on.

Could there be a possibility that, just has Max has F1 & F2, Bernie will develop the exisiting GP2 series and we will see a 'new' GP1 series made up of the FOTA teams.

The reason I think this is a possibility is that FOTA say: "The major drivers, stars, brands, sponsors, promoters and companies historically associated with the highest level of motorsport will all feature in this new series."

It would be almost impossible to make that statement without at least the tacit backing of Bernie...wouldn't it?

[F1boat]

I hope no compromise is found. Bernie and Max are poisoning F1. If you look at the WRC just a few short years ago it was in a great position and now it's nothing. For F1 to survive in spirit this needs to happen.

It is not just the WRC, Daniel. The WTCC is even more pathetic. Compare its cartoonish cars to the beasts in the DTM or the Oz V8 Championship. This awaits F1 - slow, ugly midget cars.

[ArrowsFA1]

The FIA has blamed factions within the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) for the failure of the two parties to reach agreement on the future of the sport, following the announcement that there will be a rival series next year.

"The FIA is disappointed but not surprised by FOTA's inability to reach a compromise in the best interests of the sport," said the statement.
"It is clear that elements within FOTA have sought this outcome throughout the prolonged period of negotiation and have not engaged in the discussions in good faith.
"The FIA cannot permit a financial arms race in the championship nor can the FIA allow FOTA to dictate the rules of Formula 1."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76293

[wmcot]

This awaits F1 - slow, ugly midget cars.

Do you mean the cars, or the management? :)

[AndyRAC]

It is not just the WRC, Daniel. The WTCC is even more pathetic. Compare its cartoonish cars to the beasts in the DTM or the Oz V8 Championship. This awaits F1 - slow, ugly midget cars.

I've pointed out in another thread, any Championship organised by the FiA, is up **** creek. It's no coincidence that any Championship that has looked fairly strong and a possible threat/rival to F1 has had the rug pulled from under it: WSC, WRC in 2002, etc
The time has come for the FiA/Max to go and take a running jump.

[wmcot]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76293

Yeah, I expect that Max's head will be spewing forth threats and legal jibberish until he (literally) whips himself into a frenzy! Right now, he's the designer of the Titanic swearing that the ship is unsinkable as the ship tilts 45 degrees towards the bow...

[SGWilko]

This seems to boil down to di Montezemolo's belligerence in protecting Ferrari's interests. President of Ferrari AND FOTA. Hmm.

Personally I don't care if these teams aren't in F1. I'll watch the other series but I won't necessarily follow it more than F1 2010.

Look, don't lose sight if the big picture here. You cannot run a 500+ strong team on £40m a year. Imagine you are employed by an F1 team. Would you be jumping for joy knowing you and half your colleagues were about to get the boot?

And how much would the redundancies cost the teams. What would that do to the local economy.

The FIA are too shortsighted. FOTA have, I believe, made the right decision. I hope they stick with it.

I WANT to see packed circuits, where the track owner makes a profit that he can plough back into his product. I want to see tickets that average Jo can afford. I want to see fuller grids.

If FOTA get it right - and I bet they will - the future of F1* looks bright.

*whatever it will be called

[SGWilko]

I bet all the TV rights holders are pissed. They've paid all this money for F1, which carries with it a fanbase of millions, and now they're left with the F3 expansion pack, F3 Deluxe, which carries with it all those thousands of F3, Williams and Force India fans.

They can tear their contracts up and shove them up Bernies back passage claiming BOC.

[SGWilko]

Or he bought a shotgun and he's hunting down Max! :D

Or, perhaps we will read in the papers that they are still looking for the back of Bernie's head.......

[Mark]

I can see this being yet more posturing and bargaining.

Max will say "go on then, close the door on your way out" then wait until the teams have wasted millions on setting up their new championship; only to invite them back to F1 with a few compromises for 2010.

This is typical Max, and I grudgingly admire his M.O.: make ludicrous demands, refuse to compromise, take it to the brink, then appear to compromise - ending up with what he wanted at the first place and making the teams look like the bad guys.

Part of me hopes this new series goes ahead - but I'm 99% sure a compromise will be found.

I hope you are right. I just can't see a FOTA series working. They think the teams is all they need?

They've got the teams and drivers. But they haven't got a TV deal, certainly in the UK they won't get one with the BBC, and very unlikely with ITV too. They'll be stuck on a digital channel somewhere.

They haven't got contracts with the circuits, sure, there are other F1 standard tracks out there, but not *that* many, and certainly not enough for a full race series on alternative tracks, as I'm sure the FIA will enforce their contracts with F1.

I'm hoping this will be like the premiership in the UK. Where basically all the top teams declared that they wanted no more to do with the FA and set up their own championship. Only for the FA to back down and sanction the new league.

[SGWilko]

How long before FOTA collapses??
They have, in their eyes, a common enemy at the moment and that's what holds them together.
When they are the ones running the sport week in and week out it'll be a different matter.
Can you just imagine the in fighting between the teams if they are running the show between them, sheer madness.

Next season is certainly going to be interesting, that's for sure.
I wish both series well, if it does in fact happen.

It was ALWAYS either MAX or BERNIE that were ruling by divide. WIth them gone, I am sure it will be fierce rivalry on the track, very civilised off it....

[Spoonbender]

Lewis Hamilton will win the 2008 Drivers' World Championship in an incredible final lap at Interlagos but I don't think we should be worrying about 2008 right now :p :

That's incredible!!!!! can you give me this weeks lottery numbers please, hey if I win more than £30 Mill maybe I'll start my own team :)

[race_director]

They've got the teams and drivers. But they haven't got a TV deal, certainly in the UK they won't get one with the BBC, and very unlikely with ITV too. They'll be stuck on a digital channel somewhere.


actually FOTA has announced that the series is Free to AIR, i am jumping now. i see a future where i can see the new series live in atleast 3-4 channels at the same time where i live . in short i would not miss the action even during the commercial break, i can switch channels and watch live action.

[wmcot]

That's incredible!!!!! can you give me this weeks lottery numbers please, hey if I win more than £30 Mill maybe I'll start my own team :)

And you'll have a great chance of winning the 2010 WCC in F3+! ;)

[greencroft]

[quote="Mark"] as I'm sure the FIA will enforce their contracts with F1.

[quote]

Not sure these will be enforceable - surely the contracts will have clauses defining what the FIA are supposed to bring to the circuit? Without the big teams, it's not the show the circuits signed up for.

Similarly the money to pay the FIA fees is not going to be there because the spectator income will be way down.

Lots of legal mess to look forward to .. that or a climbdown by the FIA.

[leopard]

Either FIA and FOTA should put all the problem on one table with enough faith and trust and should not relegate respect against role of any of them to enhance more fruitful agreement reached covering all of their interest on the continuity of the sport.

I think FIA will extend more grace period for the date of filling, a period of time past the deadline for fulfilling an obligation, range from a number of minutes to a number of days or longer, during which the best compromise is mutually being discussed to produce decision benefiting all parties FIA, FOTA, and teams.

[wmcot]

Funny that there's no mention of this on the "Official Website," formulaone.com! Maybe it hasn't sunk in yet?

[Robinho]

ultimately i want to see one F1 with the best drivers and teams, without Max and preferabley without the imballanced commercial terms for terms, the only differences there should be prize money (which should be substantial)

if this acheives that goal then i'm happy, i'd be intrigued to see how this turns out.

i think FOTA could get this off the ground, i can't belive that they've only just started to work on this, they must have statements of intention with circuits, sponsors, suppliers etc to be able to retain this as a credible threat.

circuits should not be a problem, there are plenty of circuits up to standard not on the current F1 roster, and some of the newbies will not want to be ploughing all the money into new tracks to be left with teh FIA's no-mark championship.

i fully expect, if the breakaway comes to fruition, that a couple of the new teams not currently on the F1 list wil jump too - prodrive, Lola seem obvious, but also why not the Superfund, Lotus and others.

F1 (FIA) will be left with no major drivers (see ya Nico), no engines other than cosworth (have they the capacity to provide 10+teams) and probably not even a full grid.

all the power seems to be on FOTA's side, and whilst i may not agree entirely with the way they have gone about things i fully agree with the motives.

i just hope that FOTA 1 gets a free to air TV contract and that CVC/F1/Bernie/Max get shafted by their current contracts by not supplying the sport they are contracted to and are ball deep in debt to provide.

finally i'd like to see Ron Dennis back in some role, all friendly with the Ferrari guys, if only to lay a Cleveland Steamer on Max's chest! ;)

[leopard]

Funny that there's no mention of this on the "Official Website," formulaone.com! Maybe it hasn't sunk in yet?
This is not common to mention internal dispute of organization or institutions supporting an event on official website.

However with the no mention, still likely the breakaway series is a no go... ;)

[ioan]

Why not? Why should we not love these teams as much as the others.

How can you even like these teams when they never turned a wheel in anger?! When they have no personality?!

[Garry Walker]

finally i'd like to see Ron Dennis back in some role, all friendly with the Ferrari guys, if only to lay a Cleveland Steamer on Max's chest! ;)
:rotflmao:

Great news, Max and Bernie can go and collectively fcuk themselves, now all we have to hope is that FOTA is 100% serious with this and will follow through.

That F1 next year with Williams, Force India, Campos and manure racing or whatever its called, sure will make a great series :rotflmao:

[Mark]

How can you even like these teams when they never turned a wheel in anger?! When they have no personality?!

That, for me, is the essence of Formula 1. The history, that the teams and the championship have been around for a long, long time. That Formula 1 can trace it's roots back to well before the war, right to the establishment of motor racing itself.

That Formula 1 is important and winning in Formula 1 marks you down in history.

A split series wether it be the weakened F1 or the FOTA series, will not have any of that prestige.

[Robinho]

i feel quite sorry for Williams, FI and the new guys and i hope they are investigating ways of getting out already and jumping ship - their sponsors will be busy trying to default, so wind the teams up and reform under a new name and join the rest?

[ioan]

I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick of what I was trying to say; I was comparing the 2009 championship with the 10 current teams to the proposed breakaway 2010 FOTA series of 8 teams.
Of course at the moment the 2010 FIA championship will be 50% weaker in terms of grid numbers and despite the number of new teams applying for entry, I seriously doubt all of them would be able to enter next year.
So there will be two weaker series though I must say FOTA's series looks more likely succeed simply because it does have all the big names.

That looks better! ;)

[ioan]

The one man who has remained very quiet recently is Bernie. It's hard to imagine him sat at home watching this mucking fess and doing nothing about it. Although his once legendary ability to 'sort' things has waned in recent times he is still a major player and I do wonder which side he will ultimately come down on.

Could there be a possibility that, just has Max has F1 & F2, Bernie will develop the exisiting GP2 series and we will see a 'new' GP1 series made up of the FOTA teams.

The reason I think this is a possibility is that FOTA say: "The major drivers, stars, brands, sponsors, promoters and companies historically associated with the highest level of motorsport will all feature in this new series."

It would be almost impossible to make that statement without at least the tacit backing of Bernie...wouldn't it?

It says the major ones, not all of them.
IMO Bernie and CVC are the reason for this breakaway. They are at the root of all these stupid cost cutting dictatorial rules.

[ioan]

I hope you are right. I just can't see a FOTA series working. They think the teams is all they need?

They've got the teams and drivers. But they haven't got a TV deal, certainly in the UK they won't get one with the BBC, and very unlikely with ITV too.

Why not with ITV?!

[Mark]

Of course it's now gone beyond a simple protest about the budget cap. We're on the brink of a full scale civil war for control of Formula 1.

[Robinho]

cos ITV have less money than Sir Alan Stanford has access to at the moment

[Robinho]

Of course it's now gone beyond a simple protest about the budget cap. We're on the brink of a full scale civil war for control of Formula 1.

we've been here before though - don't forget MAx and Bernie were inviolved in the last one and have taken F1 on a long way since then. but times have changed and there is a need for a new power structure, and hopefully we will end up with a new head to take the sport on, rather than stagnating

[Garry Walker]

Why not with ITV?!

And why not with BBC? I am sure BBC would rather show a series that people are interested in, there will be a maximum of 16 people interested in F1 series featuring Williams and Force India along with Manure racing

[ioan]

That, for me, is the essence of Formula 1. The history, that the teams and the championship have been around for a long, long time. That Formula 1 can trace it's roots back to well before the war, right to the establishment of motor racing itself.

That Formula 1 is important and winning in Formula 1 marks you down in history.

A split series wether it be the weakened F1 or the FOTA series, will not have any of that prestige.

Before 1950 it was no F1, it was GP racing! And the history is each teams history!
Look it up in the history books, every winner and every champion has a name of his own first of all, it's not only a F1 winner!

The history will go with the teams and their heritage!

[ioan]

we've been here before though - don't forget MAx and Bernie were inviolved in the last one and have taken F1 on a long way since then. but times have changed and there is a need for a new power structure, and hopefully we will end up with a new head to take the sport on, rather than stagnating

More exactly they survived another 3 years and are collapsing in the 4th, nothing to brag about IMO.
Not to forget that back than they had Ferrari on their side, now they only have WIlliams and FI, both together have maybe 5% of the Ferrari fan base!

[Mark]

Before 1950 it was no F1, it was GP racing! And the history is each teams history!
Look it up in the history books, every winner and every champion has a name of his own first of all, it's not only a F1 winner!

The history will go with the teams and their heritage!

That's true. However F1 took over from Grand Prix racing as a whole, they did not split into several championships and compete against each other.

Now if Formula 1 was to disappear completely and be replaced by Grand Prix 1, then indeed the history and heritage will continue.

If there are two series then it will not. Just look at IndyCar and how nobody really cares who wins that any more! (Apologies to IndyCar fans!)

[Mark]

And why not with BBC? I am sure BBC would rather show a series that people are interested in, there will be a maximum of 16 people interested in F1 series featuring Williams and Force India along with Manure racing

The BBC would rather go with the most popular series. But there is the small matter of contracts to consider.

Now I'm sure the BBC can argue that the FIA has broken its contract and the F1 series of 2010 is not the same as the one the signed up to, but it would be an expensive struggle.

[ioan]

cos ITV have less money than Sir Alan Stanford has access to at the moment

Who says they need to pay much?!
Maybe first year will be free if they will help with substantial publicity for the new series!

The teams are working with 300-400 million budgets right now! They can leave without a 50 million return from TV money for one season during which they offer everything for free!

[ioan]

The BBC would rather go with the most popular series. But there is the small matter of contracts to consider.

Now I'm sure the BBC can argue that the FIA has broken its contract and the F1 series of 2010 is not the same as the one the signed up to, but it would be an expensive struggle.

Depends what is in the contracts.

[ioan]

That's true. However F1 took over from Grand Prix racing as a whole, they did not split into several championships and compete against each other.

Obviously because it was 1950 and not 2009. Because there was no need to do it either.

[Knock-on]

It says the major ones, not all of them.
IMO Bernie and CVC are the reason for this breakaway. They are at the root of all these stupid cost cutting dictatorial rules.

I think you may be in for a surprise ioan old son.

You have 3 distinct camps in F1. FOM, FIA and FOTA.

I have long predicted that this split is going to happen and my guess is this:

Bernie will be part of the FOTA breakaway series. He is also the commercial rights holder to the name GP1.

Why would he get mixed up with a rival series to F1? Where's Markability when you need hem. Money and Power

Lets admit that Bernie is a master at establishing, promoting and running a racing series. Love him or hate him, he has created the modern F1 with Max.

However, he has seen his power over Max wane as the jumped up little Hitler has begun to overshadow him.

Then we have the sale for $squillions$ to CVC where Bernie only has a minority stake in FOM which is reputed to be in the name of he estranged wife.

Now, if he chucked in with FOCA, he would be able to re-establish his control over the series. GP2 could become a feeder series to GP1 and because CVC wouldn't be involved, money could be re-invested back into the sport and teams.

Then we have the teams. They know they need someone to promot6e and run the series and they know Bernie of old. If they can negiotiate a attractive contract, it would be a no brainer to have him as the series figurehead. His new title; GP1 Supremo.

I would be very surprised if Bernie hasn't got a finger in this pie ;)

But as I say, it's only a guess.

[Easy Drifter]

As far as circuits go if it is a breakaway series they will not care if it is up to current FIA F1 quality as long as it is safe enough.
At least for a year or two they probably will not demand the lavish garages they currently have, as long as they better than tents.
In other words circuits that hold LMS or ALMS races, A1GP or even DTM as examples. Why not 2 or even 3 races in the US. Argentina and Mexico are good possibilities as is South Africa. Maybe New Zealand. Bring back Imola.
Zandvroot.
Tracks can be found and if a track can get a confirmed deal for 3 to 5 years, or longer, the money can probably be found to have adequate garages and pits and press facilities etc. If they make money then better facilities can be built.
In addition to Mtl., maybe Toronto would drop IRL in favour of a second FOTA race, or if Mtl. goes with FIA a competing race. I don't think the Quebec/Mtl. people will commit to anything until they see how this plays out. I would love to see Mosport return and there is room for a garage pit complex but the track would be scary fast. Current F1 safety rules do not have to apply as long as it has adequate safety. ALMS runs at Mosport.
However both Mtl. and the return of Indy with FOTA would be likely.
What is needed is thinking outside the box.
There is no need for todays convoluted qualifying and fuel restrictions. Why 2 tire compounds that must be used. Throw that one out. As long as there is only one tire Co. (and that does not need to be) have two or three compounds that the teams can use as they see fit. Real strategy and real racing, maybe.
I can dream can't I?

[Mark]

Bernie has indeed been very quiet recently. And if rumours are to be believed fell out with Max over the whole Nazi sex scandal. So I wouldn't at all be surprised if a new series is established that Bernie will be running it!

[ioan]

I think you may be in for a surprise ioan old son.

You have 3 distinct camps in F1. FOM, FIA and FOTA.

I have long predicted that this split is going to happen and my guess is this:

Bernie will be part of the FOTA breakaway series. He is also the commercial rights holder to the name GP1.

Why would he get mixed up with a rival series to F1? Where's Markability when you need hem. Money and Power

Lets admit that Bernie is a master at establishing, promoting and running a racing series. Love him or hate him, he has created the modern F1 with Max.

However, he has seen his power over Max wane as the jumped up little Hitler has begun to overshadow him.

Then we have the sale for $squillions$ to CVC where Bernie only has a minority stake in FOM which is reputed to be in the name of he estranged wife.

Now, if he chucked in with FOCA, he would be able to re-establish his control over the series. GP2 could become a feeder series to GP1 and because CVC wouldn't be involved, money could be re-invested back into the sport and teams.

Then we have the teams. They know they need someone to promot6e and run the series and they know Bernie of old. If they can negiotiate a attractive contract, it would be a no brainer to have him as the series figurehead. His new title; GP1 Supremo.

I would be very surprised if Bernie hasn't got a finger in this pie ;)

But as I say, it's only a guess.

FOTA were reported to have got in contact with the MotoGP promoter to help them set up the new series. Why would they need Bernie?

[ArrowsFA1]

It says the major ones, not all of them.
That's true, but they are likely to have contracts with Bernie/CVC/FOM aren't they, and yet FOTA say they "will all feature in this new series".

Not so long ago Bernie said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75987) "Apart from my contracts with teams, if somebody went to any of our contracted people...we would view it very seriously. That would be inducement to breach contracts and I don't do that myself, so I won't stand back and let it happen. Any action could run to hundreds of millions of pounds, who knows how much?"

Now maybe - pure speculation of course - Bernie's view has shifted (wouldn't be a first!) because it's hard to imagine FOTA going ahead with this knowing they faced lawsuits amounting to "hundreds of millions of pounds".

[Robinho]

More exactly they survived another 3 years and are collapsing in the 4th, nothing to brag about IMO.
Not to forget that back than they had Ferrari on their side, now they only have WIlliams and FI, both together have maybe 5% of the Ferrari fan base!

i meant back when Max and Bernie were the teams fighting against Balestre, that was messy and the sport recovered and flourished. i think those 2 clowns forget where they came from

[F1boat]

FOTA were reported to have got in contact with the MotoGP promoter to help them set up the new series. Why would they need Bernie?

I prefer Dorna to Bernie as well. Bernie is as bad as Max. Look all the stupid places F1 is visiting instead of A1, Imola... check the butchered tracks, Hockenheim, even Spa. Both Bernie and Max can go to hell.

[Garry Walker]

The BBC would rather go with the most popular series. But there is the small matter of contracts to consider.

Now I'm sure the BBC can argue that the FIA has broken its contract and the F1 series of 2010 is not the same as the one the signed up to, but it would be an expensive struggle.

Why wouldnt BBC be able to show "f1" and the FOTA series at the same time? Provided they are in different timeslots of course.

[Garry Walker]

That's true, but they are likely to have contracts with Bernie/CVC/FOM aren't they, and yet FOTA say they "will all feature in this new series".

Not so long ago Bernie said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75987) "Apart from my contracts with teams, if somebody went to any of our contracted people...we would view it very seriously. That would be inducement to breach contracts and I don't do that myself, so I won't stand back and let it happen. Any action could run to hundreds of millions of pounds, who knows how much?"

Now maybe - pure speculation of course - Bernie's view has shifted (wouldn't be a first!) because it's hard to imagine FOTA going ahead with this knowing they faced lawsuits amounting to "hundreds of millions of pounds".

What was Bernie talking about there? What "contracted people" of his?

[ArrowsFA1]

You have 3 distinct camps in F1. FOM, FIA and FOTA.
Exactly, and while one of those could not continue alone, any two from three working together could run a series.

Perhaps - pure speculation again - Bernie is seeing this as an opportunity to cut Max out of the picture. Remember it was Bernie who orignially grouped F1 teams together under the FOCA umbrella in order to have more influence in the sport. It worked back in the 1980's (with the help of Max) and perhaps Bernie sees something of FOCA in FOTA :crazy:

[Robinho]

They share 3 letters if nothing else

[Garry Walker]

Exactly, and while one of those could not continue alone, any two from three working together could run a series.

Perhaps - pure speculation again - Bernie is seeing this as an opportunity to cut Max out of the picture. Remember it was Bernie who orignially grouped F1 teams together under the FOCA umbrella in order to have more influence in the sport. It worked back in the 1980's (with the help of Max) and perhaps Bernie sees something of FOCA in FOTA :crazy:

FOTA does not need Bernie in any way, they would be much better off without him and his greedy ways.

[Dave B]

Who says they need to pay much?!
Maybe first year will be free if they will help with substantial publicity for the new series!
There is a precident: the BTCC doesn't exactly cost ITV4 much - quite the reverse if anything.

If FOTA-1 / GPWC / Formula Won or whatever they call themselves offered to pay broadcasters to show their races there could be some mileage in that. Sponsors certainly wouldn't want the series to be consigned to some backwater channel.

The BBC and other current broadcasters could theoretially argue that FOM have breached their contract, but AFAIK the only stipulation is that F1 has to field a minimum of 16 cars - there's nothing to say they have to be driven by household names.

[Tazio]

FOTA does not need Bernie in any way, they would be much better off without him and his greedy ways.

Agreed. The New Series should show Bernie's A$$ their Boot!

[Robinho]

we are ignoring the possibility that this will all get cleared up over the weekend and we'll be having the one series with the familiar names next season. this could be enough to get max to stick to his word and not run for re-election, or maybe if he does someone will run against him and get rid of the old fool

[ArrowsFA1]

What was Bernie talking about there? What "contracted people" of his?
He mentions "companies, television contractors" but says "any of our contracted people" and there are quite a few of those!

FOTA does not need Bernie in any way, they would be much better off without him and his greedy ways.
Perhaps not. Perhaps FOTA can create an entirely new series without any involvement from Bernie but the fact that they say those "associated with the highest level of motorsport will all feature" makes me wonder if any new series can happen without his involvement in some shape or form.

[Mark]

Why wouldnt BBC be able to show "f1" and the FOTA series at the same time? Provided they are in different timeslots of course.

Because the BBC already devotes a LOT of airtime and effort to Formula 1 as it is. They would not be able to justify to the BBC board taking up twice that amount of airtime covering both F1 series. When there are many other competing demands on BBC Sport.

[Viktory]

N-technology and Lola have apparently joined the breakaway series. Haven't got a link, heard it on Swedish coverage if FP1

[Tazio]

I nominate Jean Todt, and JYS as Co-Commisioners of the new series.
Niki Lauda can be Race Director, Safety Delegate, Permanent Starter and head of the Technical Department. (and anything else that Charlie Whiting does.)

[Sonic]

Well they've only gone and done it. Whether it turns out to be a negotiating gambit or not this is bad bad news for F1 (and motorsport in general).

My main concern is this could signal the death of top flight motorsport. Full stop. As many people on the forum have reminded me F1 is a business. Therefore the business of motorsport needs its customers - its fans to survive. The casual fans will have little or no clue what is going on and will most likely tune in to F1 in Melbourne 2010 as normal, perhaps to find no Ferrari etc. Do we really believe these drifting fans are going to bother finding GP1 on whatever channel it happens to be on (maybe PPV). Motorsport as a whole will then loose fans and boom both series fold.

Worse case? Maybe. But it could happen.

[ArrowsFA1]

N-technology and Lola have apparently joined the breakaway series. Haven't got a link, heard it on Swedish coverage if FP1

AUTOSPORT understands [N-technology] has decided to inform Formula 1's ruling body that it has withdrawn its application because the circumstances have changed since it applied and it no longer wants to be involved in a sport without the major manufacturers.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76298

[F1boat]

Well they've only gone and done it. Whether it turns out to be a negotiating gambit or not this is bad bad news for F1 (and motorsport in general).

My main concern is this could signal the death of top flight motorsport. Full stop. As many people on the forum have reminded me F1 is a business. Therefore the business of motorsport needs its customers - its fans to survive. The casual fans will have little or no clue what is going on and will most likely tune in to F1 in Melbourne 2010 as normal, perhaps to find no Ferrari etc. Do we really believe these drifting fans are going to bother finding GP1 on whatever channel it happens to be on (maybe PPV). Motorsport as a whole will then loose fans and boom both series fold.

Worse case? Maybe. But it could happen.

Even the worse case is better than an artificially equalized to the Ferrari Campos team.

[Bezza]

Enjoy the rest of 2009, because it will be the last season before this breakaway which is no-win situation for everyone. The manufacturers are greedy, the FIA are greedy, and nobody has the guts to compromise and do what is right for the fans. A breakaway series harms everyone.

I'll enjoy the rest of 2009 and then move onto something different in 2010, I'm sad to say it but I'm not going to watch either series next year if there is a breakaway.

[SteveMcQueen]

Guys, it is not going to happen, wake up already. This is just part of the negotiation, that's all.

It is close to impossible to pull off a series with that sort of professionalism in mind in barely 10 months time, just forget it.

[Bezza]

we are ignoring the possibility that this will all get cleared up over the weekend and we'll be having the one series with the familiar names next season. this could be enough to get max to stick to his word and not run for re-election, or maybe if he does someone will run against him and get rid of the old fool

Ideal scenario, but chances of this happening???! All concerned have too much pride to compromise, the ego's are too big they only care about themselves and therefore the damage is done.

[Ghostwalker]

where Viktory? Viasat Motor?

[Mark]

Guys, it is not going to happen, wake up already. This is just part of the negotiation, that's all.

It is close to impossible to pull off a series with that sort of professionalism in mind in barely 10 months time, just forget it.

Lets hope you are right!

[F1boat]

Mark, I prefer split to what Max is proposing.

[Ghostwalker]

Guys, it is not going to happen, wake up already. This is just part of the negotiation, that's all.

It is close to impossible to pull off a series with that sort of professionalism in mind in barely 10 months time, just forget it.

well we don't know if they have already started with the planning and if that is the case, for how long they have worked with the set up of a break away series.

[Viktory]

where Viktory? Viasat Motor?

Yeah, or to be more correct, my brother told me, and he'd just been watching it, so he must've heard it on there

[ArrowsFA1]

BBC pit-lane reporter Holly Samos:

"Max Mosley has just walked in to the paddock and gone straight into Bernie Ecclestone's bus. I think he'll be a while."
Red Bull boss Christian Horner:

"Bernie Ecclestone is in a tricky position. He doesn't like the rules but it’s effectively his business. He’s in a situation where his key assets are saying they can’t enter. If anybody can deliver a solution to all this, I think he’s about the only man who can. But it isn’t forthcoming at the moment."

[555-04Q2]

Wow! A lot of speculating here! I think we should wait for a an official response from Bernie and Max before jumping to conclusions.

Personally, I see a compromise on the horizon.

[Robinho]

Lola and N Tech both have withdrawn form the reserve list - that doesn't leave the FIA much to fill its grid with, a few teams with nothing more than intentions and 2 teams with cars but no engines

[K-Pu]

I´m still thinking if the split is a good idea... IRL-CART split didn´t bring anything good.

Yes, FIA is as rotten as a 1-month dead rat, and yes, we need a change. But NO! We don´t need two rival series who are sucking each other´s life. If the split happens, FOTA has the big names, but FIA has the F1. Who will the fans follow? If the split happens, I´d try to follow both, although F1 would be just a shadow of what it was.

Anyway, there´s a lot of people to blame: Max, Bernie and yes, the FOTA. Who thinks FOTA is 100% transparent?

[cynisca]

Oh my God, they did it.
The FIA is guilty about that. I want to see a racing series with the best teams and the best driver how they fight about the world title, and not which team has the lowest budget. OK, I also want that the Formula One get cheaper, especially for manufacturers because I want to see a lot of teams and drivers.

Anyway, they did it and we have got almost the same situation like in the USA, with their IndyCars. I will watch the races of both series though.

There’s still the MotoGP, NASCAR, IndyCar Series, and DTM.

[AndyRAC]

I hope Bernie has nothing to do with the FOTA teams - but I'm also worried about the possible involvement of DORNA - they've been taking MotoGP down the same road as F1/Bernie.

[pino]

Sky Italy have confirmed that they will stay with Ferrari and cover the "Breakaway Series".

[Viktory]

I wonder what will happen next year. Will FOTA have time to set up a new championship in that time, or will the 8 teams take a sabbatical? How much will Bernie/FIA sue Ferrari and Red Bull for?

[Robinho]

We will issue a statement later today

we wait some more

[Big Ben]

I'm only affraid they'll find a compromise and Max will push through his insane plans in this manner year after year.
This problem has only one solution: Max and Bernie must go. Unfortunately one is too stupid and one too greedy for this to happen. Ther're just dispecable.

[Lemmy-Boy]

More posturing by FOTA. 8 months to set up a new series is a big challenge but still possible to pull off.

[Mark]

Sky Italy have confirmed that they will stay with Ferrari and cover the "Breakaway Series".

Italian TV could not conceive of not covering the series with Ferrari in it!

[ioan]

i meant back when Max and Bernie were the teams fighting against Balestre, that was messy and the sport recovered and flourished. i think those 2 clowns forget where they came from

Completely agree.

[ioan]

The cat eat Bernie's tongue too!

His attempts to being funny were so poor it was priceless. :D

[Mark]

But lets remember if the teams get to be in charge we'll likely have even more paralysis and disagreement than we do now!

[ioan]

But lets remember if the teams get to be in charge we'll likely have even more paralysis and disagreement than we do now!

Why not give them a chance to show us what they can do?
You're not suddenly on the Bernie pay list, I hope.

[Mark]

You're not suddenly on the Bernie pay list, I hope.

If only I was! :cool:

[ioan]

If only I was! :cool:

He's not known for paying big money. :D

But lets remember if the teams get to be in charge we'll likely have even more paralysis and disagreement than we do now!

Exactly.

There will inevitably be a 'bad guy' emerge, if Max is involved or not.

[Mark]

It's kind of like what happened in IndyCar. First there was the big revolt away from USAC control which let the series be controlled by the teams.

Then there was 'the split' which led to Tony George forming his own series and eventually the team led series collapsed.

I fear F1 is treading the same path.

[veeten]

Anyway, there´s a lot of people to blame: Max, Bernie and yes, the FOTA. Who thinks FOTA is 100% transparent?

apparently, ioan. ;)

[CNR]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76310
Force India waiting on F1 future

Force India boss Vijay Mallya has suggested his team is undecided on its future in Formula 1 following FOTA's decision to create a breakaway championship.
Force India and Williams have been the only two current teams who submitted unconditional entries for the 2010 championship.
However, FOTA announced on Thursday night that, after failing to reach a deal with the FIA, will launch its own series with its eight member squads.
Mallya said he was sad that it was not possible to reach a compromise deal, and suggested his team will consider its options following this weekend's events.
"We have been completely open and transparent with FOTA," said Mallya in a statement.

[Garry Walker]

He mentions "companies, television contractors" but says "any of our contracted people" and there are quite a few of those!



FOTA can go to anyone they like and GreedyBernie can do squat about it. Afterall, those companies can not be forced to just show or sponsor F1

[Garry Walker]

It is close to impossible to pull off a series with that sort of professionalism in mind in barely 10 months time, just forget it.
Why? Could you expand on why you think it is impossible, because I dont see it like that at all.

[Bruce D]

Three things are running through my head now and I'd like to know what you guys think of it all:

1. TV Coverage - any TV company that runs F1 now will be blocked from showing the new breakaway series. Thats ok in some European countries and the USA that has millions of TV stations, but what about the rest. For example South Africa would lose out totally because its not soccer so ETV won't be interested and the SABC don't have the finances to buy the coverage. Supersport are the current F1 coverage people and they won't be able to cover the series. Now repeat that in a lot of countries, no doubt, and your fan base is instantly smaller. Look at how bad the worldwide coverage of A1GP is.

2. Any FIA sanctioned circuit will be blocked from hosting these races, which leaves where exactly to race? Forget Silverstone, etc. No circuit can survive on the takings from 1 race weekend in a year so they have to run smaller events as well, and if they can't run FIA events, who do they run? So no circuit will take the series with that hanging over their heads.

3. Any driver taking part in the series will be banned (possibly for life, like what happened with the cricket guys playing that non-ICC santioned Indian cricket league) from taking part in any FIA sanctioned event - so forget the likes of Bourdais racing at Le Mans for example. Can these drivers seriously depend on being in this racing series long enough to make enough money to not worry about being banned from racing afterwards?

[Robinho]

1. i'd be surprised if the current TV contracts exclude the companies from showing rival series - after all when the contracts were written they were no natural rival series, and they can't retrospectively amend the contracts now.

the contract also probably has some requirement for FOM to provvide the premier F1 world championship racing consisting of a minimum 18 cars and some specific venues - when the FIA/FOM championship faiols to provide this the TV guys will jump anyway.

2. as stated previously any european track is free to run any event, the FIA cannot stop them.

outside of Europe i'm not so sure of the details, but the US and Canada run under their own governance for the tracks, and the Asian countries have plenty of domestic series running on their (under used) FIA sanction circuits.

3. FIA don't run Le Mans for a start, its the ACO in France.

the FIA don't have the power in this struggle, i think there would be plenty of tracks available and the drivers will go with the teams wherever they see the pinnacle championship.

i share some of your concerns on TV coverage, but the FOTA release did mention about availability on Free to Air TV

[Robinho]

just a thought - GP2 is Bernies yeah, and races on the F1 support bill.

MAx has managed to create F2 (running on WTCC bill), with a Williams designed chassis.

Max will move F2 to GP2's spot, beneath the near spec (2 definite teams with cars, 2 new entrants and a coiuple of reserves who may or may not still want to play when Max gets to them) all cosworth F1.

Bernie takes FOM to GP1, with GP2 as the support series?

F1 and F2 die a slow death, but noone notices, hopefully Williams get out and come to play with the proper teams and GP1 continues where the current F1 left off - we can hope?

[Mark]

Local governing bodies are free to run series however they like within their own borders, so NASCAR in America, ACO in France, BTCC in the UK, can act as they like with no input from the FIA.

FIA only has jurisdiction when a championship is being run internationally.

[Robinho]

so drivers can go anywhere outside GP1 except the FIA series (i can't believe the FIA would be so stupid to exclude the drivers anyway), and the European circuits and non-euro, non FIA circuits could take GP1

[markabilly]

Monaco is like the Indy version of of F1,

who will be there, FOTA or bernei?
If monaco goes FOTA, bernie's circus is kaput

If it does not, then the whole split thing will go kaput

Besides I bet money there are all these european anti-trust laws that ought to take care of the retialiation

If FOTA gets Monaco, Spa, Monza, SILVERSTONE and THE USA!!!!!!
Then it will be going good---add in regs that ensure competitive engines (Merceded or whoever)for all those "other new" entries, and they will follow with the big boys

Nothing mandates that the FIA has exclusive jurisdiction over international racing, it is merely a sanctioning body among others

[ioan]

Why? Could you expand on why you think it is impossible, because I dont see it like that at all.

They have no arguments. all they say it's impossible! It's like the guy this morning on the BBC broadcast, who was repeating that it's impossible to achieve what Bernie and Max achieved, but he never had an effin' argument to support his butt kissing.

When I see people believe that manufacturers, that existed and prospered for more than half a century and who between them are one of the strongest groups on Earth, can't put together a calender of 10-15 races and sign a few TV broadcasting contracts, I just realize how many idiots live in this world!
And that somehow explains why some of us have to work twice as hard to making things advance while these mules are keeping pulling in the wrong direction.

[Robinho]

Monaco will go with Ferrari

[ioan]

Monaco is like the Indy version of of F1,

who will be there, FOTA or bernei?
If monaco goes FOTA, bernie's circus is kaput

If it does not, then the whole split thing will go kaput

Besides I bet money there are all these european anti-trust laws that ought to take care of the retialiation

If FOTA gets Monaco, Spa, Monza, SILVERSTONE and THE USA!!!!!!
Then it will be going good---add in regs that ensure competitive engines (Merceded or whoever)for all those "other new" entries, and they will follow with the big boys

Monaco goes with Ferrari , the other European venues are free to chose their side or run both races.

The FOTA will be proposing contracts with much smaller fees than Bernie has and the tracks might even make some money out of the races for once!

[ioan]

Local governing bodies are free to run series however they like within their own borders, so NASCAR in America, ACO in France, BTCC in the UK, can act as they like with no input from the FIA.

FIA only has jurisdiction when a championship is being run internationally.

And even than, what if every local automotive body sanctions the race held in their country?

[ioan]

Three things are running through my head now and I'd like to know what you guys think of it all:

1. TV Coverage - any TV company that runs F1 now will be blocked from showing the new breakaway series.

That is not enforceable in Europe due to the European laws on freedom of competition.

[Robinho]

yeah the individual races are free to be standalone series, each with their own champion - and oh, look, we've just totalled up the points from each championship and decided to give the leader a prize, we'll call them the World Champion ;)

[ioan]

To be honest I think that if the breakaway series starts to have a realistic contour Max will not win the FIA elections anymore, he might even prefer not to run to avoid being humiliated (not sure given some of his spare time activities).

All it needs is for the FOTA to propose a strong candidate who will be supported by the FOTA, the ACEA and by many national governing bodies.

[Robinho]

like a certain Jean Todt?

[ioan]

like a certain Jean Todt?

Him or Ron Dennis, or maybe both as a support for a 3rd neutral person.

[markabilly]

Monaco goes with Ferrari , the other European venues are free to chose their side or run both races.

The FOTA will be proposing contracts with much smaller fees than Bernie has and the tracks might even make some money out of the races for once!


monaco is the key, (along with some other great tracks like Monza and Spa and Silverstone) as when the CART bust up occurred, all the great teams and drivers went CART, but TG still had Indy.....

the real fans wanted the great teams and drivers, but sponsors and TV wanted Indy and its associated PR

so it is not nearly enough for the big eight to go, the tracks must be there

[Robinho]

then we can all come back in about 20-30yrs and do all this again when the new breed have had enough!

[ioan]

monaco is the key, (along with some other great tracks like Monza and Spa and Silverstone) as when the CART bust up occurred, all the great teams and drivers went CART, but TG still had Indy.....

the real fans wanted the great teams and drivers, but sponsors and TV wanted Indy and its associated PR

so it is not nearly enough for the big eight to go, the tracks must be there

Do you have a reading problem too?!
It's been mentioned endless times that Monaco will go where Ferrari goes. :rolleyes:

Also the other tracks have nothing to lose signing up with FOTA given that the fees will be less than half of what Bernie extorts.

[markabilly]

Do you have a reading problem too?!
It's been mentioned endless times that Monaco will go where Ferrari goes. :rolleyes:

Also the other tracks have nothing to lose signing up with FOTA given that the fees will be less than half of what Bernie extorts.
say it when they announce officially that monaco has signed on and cancelled with maxie

my deep down suspicion is that old maXie, who is a machevillian master, will figure out some way to conquer and divide as he did using Ferrari a few years ago, to drag the teams back in to the old corral.....I hope not, but.......... :(

TRACKS for me in addition to monaco:
Silverstone
Monza
Spa-Francorchamps
Suzuka
A1-Ring
Gilles Villeneuve
Nurburgring
Indianapolis
Laguana Seca
Sao Paulo
Hockenheim

[Mark]

monaco is the key, (along with some other great tracks like Monza and Spa and Silverstone) as when the CART bust up occurred, all the great teams and drivers went CART, but TG still had Indy.....

the real fans wanted the great teams and drivers, but sponsors and TV wanted Indy and its associated PR

so it is not nearly enough for the big eight to go, the tracks must be there

Yep, and it wasn't that long before the big teams jumped ship to the IRL and CART began its downward spiral.

[Malbec]

Three things are running through my head now and I'd like to know what you guys think of it all:

1. TV Coverage - any TV company that runs F1 now will be blocked from showing the new breakaway series. Thats ok in some European countries and the USA that has millions of TV stations, but what about the rest. For example South Africa would lose out totally because its not soccer so ETV won't be interested and the SABC don't have the finances to buy the coverage. Supersport are the current F1 coverage people and they won't be able to cover the series. Now repeat that in a lot of countries, no doubt, and your fan base is instantly smaller. Look at how bad the worldwide coverage of A1GP is.

2. Any FIA sanctioned circuit will be blocked from hosting these races, which leaves where exactly to race? Forget Silverstone, etc. No circuit can survive on the takings from 1 race weekend in a year so they have to run smaller events as well, and if they can't run FIA events, who do they run? So no circuit will take the series with that hanging over their heads.

3. Any driver taking part in the series will be banned (possibly for life, like what happened with the cricket guys playing that non-ICC santioned Indian cricket league) from taking part in any FIA sanctioned event - so forget the likes of Bourdais racing at Le Mans for example. Can these drivers seriously depend on being in this racing series long enough to make enough money to not worry about being banned from racing afterwards?

I disagree with your points completely.

TV rights - there would be contractual obligations for Bernie to provide a particular show, like he has with the tracks. If he can't provide that show then many of the TV contracts may be invalid.

Circuits - plenty host FIA sanctioned and unsanctioned races, Le Mans isn't FIA sanctioned for a start and that entire series runs at plenty of tracks that host FIA sanctioned events. Plus if the FIA tries to exclude tracks from having contracts with non-FIA formulae the EU monopolies commission may get interested.

3 - again anti-competitive authorities may take an interest in employees (which is what drivers are at the end of the day) being excluded from work because they happened to work for the 'wrong' company.

If FOTA do break away they hold some strong cards. Their biggest problem is time, do they have enough?

[markabilly]

Yep, and it wasn't that long before the big teams jumped ship to the IRL and CART began its downward spiral.
actually, my opinion is they both went down the toilet, but irl is still just stuck in the toilet like a stuck t**d, barely survivng on the danica sideshow

unfortunately it took down OW racing with it in the USA,

now nascar runs at Indy and draws close to the same number of people

[Malbec]

actually, my opinion is they both went down the toilet, but irl is still just stuck in the toilet like a stuck t**d, barely survivng on the danica sideshow

unfortunately it took down OW racing with it in the USA,

now nascar runs at Indy and draws close to the same number of people

F1 doesn't really have a rival in Europe or the rest of the world in the same sense that Indy/CART did with NASCAR. There are lots of small rivals like GT racing, JGTC and WRC dotted around the world but I doubt any of them are capable of growing quickly enough to pose a threat to F1/FOTAF1.

[ioan]

say it when they announce officially that monaco has signed on and cancelled with maxie

There is nothing to cancel, they do not have a a contract with anyone.

[Valve Bounce]

Monaco is not a track - it consists of public roads. If Prince Rainier wants to run a second race on his roads there in a year, who is to stop him?

[race_director]

actually, my opinion is they both went down the toilet, but irl is still just stuck in the toilet like a stuck t**d, barely survivng on the danica sideshow

unfortunately it took down OW racing with it in the USA,

now nascar runs at Indy and draws close to the same number of people

Back in america the crowd and viewer base is very limited , that why both series could not gather enough share of viewer's

F1 viewership if very large and also about 90% of the viewer's are very pissed on MAX . so the series will suceed.

[Dave B]

There are a lot of armchair lawyers crawling out of the woodwork recently :rolleyes:

[Mark]

Monaco is not a track - it consists of public roads. If Prince Rainier wants to run a second race on his roads there in a year, who is to stop him?

Since he is the boss of the country and can do whatever he likes, nobody :D

[Dave B]

The FIA have responded to FOTA's latest attempt at negotiation:


The FIA is disappointed but not surprised by FOTA’s inability to reach a compromise in the best interests of the sport. It is clear that elements within FOTA have sought this outcome throughout the prolonged period of negotiation and have not engaged in the discussions in good faith.

“The FIA cannot permit a financial arms race in the Championship nor can the FIA allow FOTA to dictate the rules of Formula One.

“The deadline for unconditional entries to the 2010 FIA Formula World Championship will expire this evening.

“The 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship entry list will be announced tomorrow.

http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/fia-responds-to-fota-breakaway/

So that's that then. No compromise. Expect the finalised entry list to be Williams and Force India; Ferrari and the RBR teams (the FIA believe they're contracted to race); plus a whole lot of new teams.

[jens]

The two big questions in FIA vs FOTA war so far have been FOTA's ability to stay united despite Max' and Bernie's endless attempts of diving them. And secondly, whether FOTA is successfully capable of forming its own series. If those two premises are fulfullied (so far, so good!), FOTA has a great chance of winning this war.

People keep talking about "two competing series", but - to be honest - if FOTA manages to set up its own series quickly and successfully, I see no rivalry - FOTA-series would be way above. F1 - if it continues to exist in that way - with its Marches and Litespeeds would only play a role of a feeder series for FOTA. Max and Bernie should know this, but it seems that they would rather kill F1 than give up their power. And this is the keyword of the whole struggle.

[wedge]

Not that I'm an advocate of FIA but me thinks FOTA are copying Max's negotiating tactics.

I'll believe this breakaway nonsense when all the contracts are signed, 2010 calender published and then the start of the new championship.

FOTA: call your bluff. The ball is still in your court.

[Alfa Fan]

So when does everyone think the remaining eight teams will submit their inevitable entries to the FIA championship tonight? I'm going for about 11.30!

[race_director]

So when does everyone think the remaining eight teams will submit their inevitable entries to the FIA championship tonight? I'm going for about 11.30!



FIA has put on hold on the release of new entry list, till things gets clear.

[ioan]

FOTA: call your bluff. The ball is still in your court.

Is that you Max?! The ball lies right in front of you! :laugh:

[ioan]

So when does everyone think the remaining eight teams will submit their inevitable entries to the FIA championship tonight? I'm going for about 11.30!

Won't happen.

[Somebody]

FIA has put on hold on the release of new entry list, till things gets clear.

They've not extended the deadline though, have they? That is, the process of officially choosing from the entries received has been suspended, but all who wish to enter must have an unconditional entry in by tonight.

And with the FOTA teams along with Lola, Prodrive and NTech withdrawing, well...

[V12]

My thoughts:

First:
Max. What does he want? I mean REALLY want. His statements on the budget cap being necessary to keep F1 an open technological contest while keeping it sustainable, if true and without agenda, are very laudable and strike a chord with me.

HOWEVER - I judge people on actions rather than words. He could have set up F2 in the image of his proposed new F1 (on a smaller scale of course), but instead he chose the FPA+ route. A piece in Autosport at the turn of the year said that Max's real dream is a spec series, and not only a spec series, but a centrally-run one without traditional racing teams.

If the split goes ahead, F1 will likely be 100% Cosworth powered. Nothing wrong with that if they are the only company capable of supplying a decent motor at this point in time, but is this the thin end of the wedge that sees Max mandate ubiquity by stealth?

"Oh look, everyone's using the same engine anyway, let's make it mandatory." He's already got tyres covered, so then he could start weasling his way into the chassis side...a common part here and there...and increasing until everyone has to use the same car.

Second:
FOTA's search for a promoter. I agree with the poster who said Dorna are bad news. Under their watch MotoGP have followed F1's lead by booting out Michelin and making everyone use Bridgestones, and implementing various technical restrictions in the name of "cost cutting" and "the show". MotoGP is going down the same slippery slope as F1, just a bit higher up said slope.

Their boss Ezpeleta (sp?) is always appearing in news articles piping up about how they need to change this, that, and the other. You are not wanted - go away.

Third:
CART/IRL analogy. People are comparing Monaco and the Indy 500, but I think it's slightly different. Monaco is a prestigious event, probably the most prestigious event, but it's just one prestigious event among others (Britain, France, Italy, Belgium etc.). IndyCar is unique at being so gravitated to one event, hell that's evident even in the name - IndyCar. F1 isn't called "MonacoCar".

I agree a split could well have the damage that the US split had, but unlike over there, where in the long run there was only ever going to be one winner (the one who had Indy), I think the resolution to any split here will be more decided on individual merits (a combination of best drivers, teams, tracks, technology, and *shudders* "show"). There will be no Indy-style trump card that beats all by default.

Finally:
What will I do if the split goes ahead? Well I'll probably watch both to begin with, although if Max's F1 even looks like heading towards Max's F2 model, I'll file it under "irrelevancy" and act like it doesn't exist.

But, if the manufacturer-less F1 becomes a playground for garagiste constructors pitting ideas off against each other, if the budget caps work and the technical rules aren't micro-managed to the n-th degree like they are currently, I would prefer it to any manufacturer breakway series, although I would still watch both. And no I still wouldn't care about "the show". You're talking to a guy whose favourite season in his own living memory is 1992 :)

(Apologies for the long post, but I had a lot to cover for a 10 page thread!)

[F1Kurt]

Far be it from me to start a conspiracy but follow me here…

Bernie doesn’t REALLY own Formula One’s commercial rights. CVC Fund IV (75%) and Bambino Holdings (25% - whose beneficiaries are members of the Ecclestone family). Bernie is just the CEO.

What if Bernie, with the help of the FOTA teams, wanted to screw over his company? If Bernie, outside of FOM, got the rights to the break away series, he would not be obligated to CVC and the billions they invested. That would lead to cheaper costs for races and thus more money to go around to the teams and the new commercial rights holder, the old commerical rights holder (to paraphrase the Beatles).

Conversely, this battle royale between Max and FOCA could all just be a ruse to cut CVC and Bernie out of the picture. The cost of getting an F1 event has gone from less than $7 million in 2000 to starting at $25 million and beyond in 2008. France, Canada, USA, Portugal, even the UK refuse to pay these skyrocketing costs. Even China and Turkey are reluctant after the dismal turnouts.

[Knock-on]

Far be it from me to start a conspiracy but follow me here…

Bernie doesn’t REALLY own Formula One’s commercial rights. CVC Fund IV (75%) and Bambino Holdings (25% - whose beneficiaries are members of the Ecclestone family). Bernie is just the CEO.

What if Bernie, with the help of the FOTA teams, wanted to screw over his company? If Bernie, outside of FOM, got the rights to the break away series, he would not be obligated to CVC and the billions they invested. That would lead to cheaper costs for races and thus more money to go around to the teams and the new commercial rights holder, the old commerical rights holder (to paraphrase the Beatles).

Conversely, this battle royale between Max and FOCA could all just be a ruse to cut CVC and Bernie out of the picture. The cost of getting an F1 event has gone from less than $7 million in 2000 to starting at $25 million and beyond in 2008. France, Canada, USA, Portugal, even the UK refuse to pay these skyrocketing costs. Even China and Turkey are reluctant after the dismal turnouts.

Been there, done that :D

[Somebody]

Far be it from me to start a conspiracy but follow me here…

Bernie doesn’t REALLY own Formula One’s commercial rights. CVC Fund IV (75%) and Bambino Holdings (25% - whose beneficiaries are members of the Ecclestone family). Bernie is just the CEO.

What if Bernie, with the help of the FOTA teams, wanted to screw over his company? If Bernie, outside of FOM, got the rights to the break away series, he would not be obligated to CVC and the billions they invested. That would lead to cheaper costs for races and thus more money to go around to the teams and the new commercial rights holder, the old commerical rights holder (to paraphrase the Beatles).
CVC would sue Bernie for every penny he had. And probably win.

[Shifter]

V12, thank you for your thoughts! It crystallized what had been foggy suspicions in my head. Being from the U.S., I have watched AOW closely and attended both IRL and Champ Car events during the split. I would say that North Americans are fickle about their motorsports, and I suspect that there are more hardcore fans per capita in just about all of the EU. Before the split, the hardcore fan were able to draw the casuals into OW racing banking on the action on-track and the near-household names Andretti, Rahal, et al. It was a legit sport that could draw comparasons to marquee sporting events such as golf or the Preakness. After the split, Indy stood alone as the marquee AOW event, because the luster just wasn't strong enough to spread to Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen, or any of the assorted ovals visited. Champ Car had Tracy and Bourdais, so they had a good rivalry and had others like Glock, because, despite the lack of manufacturers the feel of a European OW was there in all but location. Some of those locations were pretty bad, San Jose i think had a railroad crossing which was quite spectacular, but the whole thing sort of lent itself to the bizzare nature of the 'series that didn't run at Indy'.

With a world championship, there are a number of marquee grand prix circuits, and the FIA i think have no domain over a circuit a la Tony George. They probably have contracts, but contracts expire (or disappear in courts). Add to this mix a potentially more dedicated fan base for both series than the IRL could ever dream of, and the comparasons to the AOW spit just sort of don't hold up in my mind. I believe this is a far different game and in no more than 3 years a winner will be declared.

[Bagwan]

Here is solid proof these guys are serious . McLaren has said dick until now on this issue , and are "confident" about the idea now that it's out in the open .
It means that they will not return to a Mosely series .

This is from ITV:
McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh says he is confident that if FOTA's proposed breakaway Formula 1 series goes ahead it will become the 'pinnacle' of motorsport and overshadow the FIA's world championship.


With no resolution in the bitter row between the teams' union and the governing body, the eight FOTA squads are pressing on with plans to launch a rival championship for 2010.


Whitmarsh believes that FOTA's action is ultimately a "positive" one for the sport


"We have taken a positive step to say that we are committing to race together," he said.



"We were heading, whatever happened it seemed, towards a split in the last couple of days.


"It could have been some of those teams within FOTA disappearing from the sport completely.


"Anyone who has been watching would have been very aware that a number of major manufacturers were almost inexorably leaving the sport, and that would have been highly damaging.


"We're inviting all those participating at the moment and any new entrant to participate in what we believe will be the pinnacle of motorsport."


He acknowledged that the teams must share the blame for some of F1's shortcomings in recent years.


"In Formula 1 in recent years there has not been the stability that we should have, there has not been the clarity of what the championship should be for the fans," Whitmarsh said.


"That's not pointing the finger at anyone, we've all been part of it.


"Some of us feel we've got to do a better job than we have in the past."


He added that it was too soon to confirm any precise details about FOTA's breakaway championship.


"It was a decision made last night, and I think therefore to talk about preparations ten hours later would be premature," Whitmarsh said.


"There have been lots of ideas and suggestiosn that have been thrown at the teams, but the fact is that there's a lot of work ahead of us.


"That's a challenge, and there are tinges of excitement and concern in it, because any new venture is just that.


"But there's been a lot of interest and support voiced for the teams, and we're open to any way forward."





Say good night , Max .

It's over for you , so it's time to decide whether you take F1 down with you .

[RS]

The FIA were going to announce the final entry list for 2010 tomorrow, now what are they going to do?

They can't include the breakaway teams but they can't include new teams now and tell them later on they changed their minds either, they need to know now!

[ioan]

Here is solid proof these guys are serious . McLaren has said dick until now on this issue , and are "confident" about the idea now that it's out in the open .
It means that they will not return to a Mosely series .

This is from ITV:
McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh says he is confident that if FOTA's proposed breakaway Formula 1 series goes ahead it will become the 'pinnacle' of motorsport and overshadow the FIA's world championship.


With no resolution in the bitter row between the teams' union and the governing body, the eight FOTA squads are pressing on with plans to launch a rival championship for 2010.


Whitmarsh believes that FOTA's action is ultimately a "positive" one for the sport


"We have taken a positive step to say that we are committing to race together," he said.



"We were heading, whatever happened it seemed, towards a split in the last couple of days.


"It could have been some of those teams within FOTA disappearing from the sport completely.


"Anyone who has been watching would have been very aware that a number of major manufacturers were almost inexorably leaving the sport, and that would have been highly damaging.


"We're inviting all those participating at the moment and any new entrant to participate in what we believe will be the pinnacle of motorsport."


He acknowledged that the teams must share the blame for some of F1's shortcomings in recent years.


"In Formula 1 in recent years there has not been the stability that we should have, there has not been the clarity of what the championship should be for the fans," Whitmarsh said.


"That's not pointing the finger at anyone, we've all been part of it.


"Some of us feel we've got to do a better job than we have in the past."


He added that it was too soon to confirm any precise details about FOTA's breakaway championship.


"It was a decision made last night, and I think therefore to talk about preparations ten hours later would be premature," Whitmarsh said.


"There have been lots of ideas and suggestiosn that have been thrown at the teams, but the fact is that there's a lot of work ahead of us.


"That's a challenge, and there are tinges of excitement and concern in it, because any new venture is just that.


"But there's been a lot of interest and support voiced for the teams, and we're open to any way forward."





Say good night , Max .

It's over for you , so it's time to decide whether you take F1 down with you .

:up:

The whole of today's press conference is a very good and highly recommended read, if you want to know more about what the FOTA teams feel like!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76346

[wmcot]

FOTA were reported to have got in contact with the MotoGP promoter to help them set up the new series. Why would they need Bernie?

Probably just keeping their options open at this time.

[wmcot]

The FIA were going to announce the final entry list for 2010 tomorrow, now what are they going to do?

They can't include the breakaway teams but they can't include new teams now and tell them later on they changed their minds either, they need to know now!

I suspect Max will still include the FOTA teams because he still believes that he has absolute dominion over the sport. The madman can't see that his time has come (and gone!)

I can see him a few years dow the road in an "old folk's home" still raving on about how he is in control of F1 while the nurse wipes the drool off his chin with his bib!

[wmcot]

At least we'll have the prolonged court battles to entertain us during the off-season. ;)

[ClarkFan]

Monaco is not a track - it consists of public roads. If Prince Rainier wants to run a second race on his roads there in a year, who is to stop him?

It must be good to be a Prince! :cool:

ClarkFan

[woody2goody]

Monaco, with all due respect, unless it rains, isn't the most interesting race. I never call an F1 race 'boring' either.

If FOTA get Monaco, then in a way it's F1's gain, because they can replace it with a circuit where they can get a more interesting Grand Prix.

RS is right though, there's no backing out for either side after the entry list is published. The new teams need to know whether to build a car for 2010 or not.

[Malbec]

Here is solid proof these guys are serious .

Say good night , Max .

It's over for you , so it's time to decide whether you take F1 down with you .

I'll take all that with a pinch of salt until I can see proof of concrete contracts with tracks and TV channels sufficient to run an entire series. Until then its all posturing, though I agree that FOTA could pull it off if they wanted to. Lets all wait a few weeks to see how this pans out. As far as I can see there's nothing here that suggests that its anything more than a negotiation ploy at this point in time.

[Somebody]

The FIA were going to announce the final entry list for 2010 tomorrow, now what are they going to do?

They can't include the breakaway teams but they can't include new teams now and tell them later on they changed their minds either, they need to know now!

They've suspended the announcement pending Max's court case. Despite saying there was no-way-nuh-huh they could suspend it as far as the 1st of June.

[Valve Bounce]

It must be good to be a Prince! :cool:

ClarkFan

Especially one who owns one of the most famous Casinos in the world. He has connections that Max or Bernie wouldn't want to mess with. :eek:

[gloomyDAY]

Oh crap. Even the NASCAR guys feel pity for F1.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76349

[ioan]

Oh crap. Even the NASCAR guys feel pity for F1.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76349

They are just trying to seem important.
I've never watched one of their turn left races and never will.

Monaco, with all due respect, unless it rains, isn't the most interesting race. I never call an F1 race 'boring' either.

If FOTA get Monaco, then in a way it's F1's gain, because they can replace it with a circuit where they can get a more interesting Grand Prix.

Try telling that to the sponsors.

[ioan]

Try telling that to the sponsors.

They already did and they are all on boat with the FOTA.

[woody2goody]

Try telling that to the sponsors.

I bet they'd invest more money if they attended a better race.

[AndyRAC]

It must be good to be a Prince! :cool:

ClarkFan

Prince Rainier - mm, I thought he had died - don't people mean Prince Albert?

[Ghostwalker]

Prince Rainier - mm, I thought he had died - don't people mean Prince Albert?

yep Prince rainer died 4 years ago and was succeeded by Prince Albert II

[markabilly]

They are just trying to seem important.
I've never watched one of their turn left races and never will.

You got to do it live from the infield after and during some heavy drinking, u ain't lived until then, dude

[ioan]

You got to do it live from the infield after and during some heavy drinking, u ain't lived until then, dude

You got to be kidding. I won't pay a ticket from Europe to the US in order to get drunk and watch a WWNascar 'race'! :D

[CNR]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/vettel-settles-argument-on-the-track-1711491.html


Prodrive, Lola and N Technology, all of them refused entries, rubbed their hands and made a beeline to FOTA representatives.

[Valve Bounce]

yep Prince rainer died 4 years ago and was succeeded by Prince Albert II

I didn't know that :(
Poor guy!!

[maximilian]

I didn't know that :(
Poor guy!!
Poor guy? He lived a life of luxury and glamour, married a movie star, and died at the age of 81. I'd say he lived a pretty fulfilled life! :D

[CNR]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76417


Brawn confirmed that ironically motor racing's governing body would likely be the regulator of the new series.
"You would need a regulatory body," he said. "In fact ironically I think the agreement with the European Commission is that the FIA have to offer to do that to any competitive series that wants to set up, so the FIA have to offer to be at least the regulatory body.
"They may not be the body that sets the rules, they can be determined by some other mechanism. But if you want, the FIA can run the series for you. They can provide the stewards, the scruntineers and things of that nature. So that's available if FOTA wanted to take it up."
Although Brawn's stance appears to point towards there being no plans to get the FIA back around the table to discuss saving F1 next year, other team bosses are more conciliatory in their approach.
McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh said it would be foolish of teams not to accept an offer they are happy with if it was put forward by the FIA.
"I don't think FOTA rules anything out," said Whitmarsh. "At the moment, as we said earlier in the week, the team were presented with a deadline and, faced with that deadline, the teams did request that there was more time to find a solution.
"So within that deadline the decision was taken, but I think the teams are open to discuss with anybody how we go motor racing next year."

[markabilly]

You got to be kidding. I won't pay a ticket from Europe to the US in order to get drunk and watch a WWNascar 'race'! :D

JPM did, and the rest was history---he loves being one of the most fit drivers out there in nastycar

his off track conditiong program involves strenous use of right arm to eat and drink...

Besides look again, I did not say anything about watching the race.....too hard to see such anyway when looking through beer goggles :s mokin:

[ClarkFan]

I bet they'd invest more money if they attended a better race.

Not a chance. Sponsors don't give a &#%@ about racing - they are all about image and setting. That is the lesson BE learned 20+ years ago. A close race vs. entertaining clients on a yacht in Monaco harbor? No contest, the yacht wins 1000/1000.

ClarkFan

[markabilly]

Not a chance. Sponsors don't give a &#%@ about racing - they are all about image and setting. That is the lesson BE learned 20+ years ago. A close race vs. entertaining clients on a yacht in Monaco harbor? No contest, the yacht wins 1000/1000.

ClarkFan
yep, just look at irl and champ car................who won?

the indy 500

[ioan]

JPM did, and the rest was history---he loves being one of the most fit drivers out there in nastycar

his off track conditiong program involves strenous use of right arm to eat and drink...

Besides look again, I did not say anything about watching the race.....too hard to see such anyway when looking through beer goggles :s mokin:

:up: :laugh:

[christophulus]

OK, three weeks til the next race. Hands up who thinks there'll be a reconciliation by this point?

[K-Pu]

OK, three weeks til the next race. Hands up who thinks there'll be a reconciliation by this point?

Do we hear silence...

[ioan]

"We are using so many words, and now is enough," he told AUTOSPORT. "We have made our statement and this is very clear - that is it.

"We will have it [the breakaway championship] ready in the next few weeks. We have been planning for several weeks already. We want a Formula 1 championship organised by FOTA. There has been no change in the last two days. I do not want to make anymore statements."



"I think if you look at the overwhelming support we have got from the public, ultimately now there has to be a fairly significant move from the federation," Howett told AUTOSPORT in reaction to Mosley's comments.

"Overall we have a clear position and I think we made numerous concessions to achieve some sort of compromise. Now, we have made the decision, and at the moment we are moving forwards very positively on that vector."


"FOTA has a number of meetings next week and we've got to look at the process by which we appoint people who are selling the media, looking at the way in which we engage circuits. There has been a lot of interest in working with us, and given our situation we are obliged to go forward with those arrangements and that planning."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76458


I think that what we said is that on our side, we want to go ahead with the project. We want to show that we are ready, and with regard to the FIA, it is not something that I can say. He is the president of the FIA, and he will take the decision if he wants to take it. I don't have any other answer on that.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76455

[Saint Devote]

I see no reason at all to be merry about this potential implosion of the world championship.

Neither side will succeed and both will suffer. No sport has flourished after being broken up.

This is just like any civil war a dark day in the history of motor racing.

Kimi Raikonnen summed it up when he said that this is about egotictical individuals and powergrabbing.

What the end result is at this stage nobody can know at this stage, but destruction of f1, the championship that decides the world driving champion, being celebrated by anyone makes me wonder about their reasoning ability.

[CNR]

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=333576&FS=F1
FOTA's 'New Formula' eyes 17-race calendar

Rumours that plans for FOTA's breakaway championship are moving forwards abounded on Sunday.
In the paddock of the Silverstone circuit, even a possible name for the series emerged - 'New Formula' - as well as a potential 17-race 2010 calendar.
Former F1 venues including Buenos Aires, Mexico City, Jerez, Imola, Montreal, Indianapolis, Silverstone, Magny Cours and Adelaide were listed on the theoretical calendar, published by the German news (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=333576&FS=F1#) agency SID.
Current tracks were also mentioned: Monaco, Silverstone, Monza, Abu Dhabi, Singapore and Suzuka, while potential new venues are Jerez, Portimao, the Lausitzring, Surfer's (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=333576&FS=F1#) Paradise (Australia) and even the Finnish capital Helsinki.


http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=333583&FS=F1
Gold Coast confirms breakaway race interest

Gold Coast mayor Ron Clarke has confirmed reports that Surfers Paradise is keen to host a round of FOTA's breakaway series.

Rumours of a 17-race calendar for 2010 did the rounds at Silverstone on Sunday, with Surfer's Paradise as well as former Australian Grand Prix venue Adelaide both mentioned.
It is believed that Melbourne would be unable to host a round due to its exclusive contracts with Bernie Ecclestone's FOM.

[airshifter]

I see no reason at all to be merry about this potential implosion of the world championship.

Neither side will succeed and both will suffer. No sport has flourished after being broken up.

This is just like any civil war a dark day in the history of motor racing.

Kimi Raikonnen summed it up when he said that this is about egotictical individuals and powergrabbing.

What the end result is at this stage nobody can know at this stage, but destruction of f1, the championship that decides the world driving champion, being celebrated by anyone makes me wonder about their reasoning ability.

If FOTA breaks away the pinnacle of motorsport will travel with them. F1 will become not much more than a spec car series. I'd gladly celebrate racing with rules set by those supporting racing with millions and millions of dollars ever year, rather than the way it is now, with the teams having no say for the greater profit of the bumbling idiots running the show.

I have no problems with my reasoning abilities. It's been clear to me for years that Max and the FIA push forward with stupid ideas that cost the teams money, and the teams finally got sick of it.

[Saint Devote]

Personally, while I do not want to see a break up - I support the FIA / FOA and not FOTA at all.

F1 and the drivers world championship will not be FOTA no matter who is there.

No team is bigger than the sport and even if a Ferrari is not present then that will be their own decision.

Briatore has been bucking for something like this for a long time. He sees himself as another Bernie I think.

I attended the South African Grand Prix in 1981 where no Mclaren or Ferrari was present and, won by Carlos Reutemann in the Williams it was as enjoyable.

F1 is suposed to be a constructors and drivers championship and with teams such as Williams and new teams such as USF1 and Cosworth it will be.

Teams that are RACING teams and not looking to sell automobiles and spending ridiculous amounts of money. Maybe if there is a break up f1 will return to the great days when it was not dominated by the manufacturers but by racing teams constructors. And the drivers were kewl dudes without pretention that would mix with the fans.

Why not have drivers such as Pantano, Bruno, di Grassi and Davidson - maybe even Bourdais and Sato and Paffett who will establish themselves in f1 and be given a chance to race?

And if Monte Carlo will only go where Ferrari is, then let them. New tracks will be established and a new f1 - back to the future - will flourish.

I support Bernie. I always have and I will not change now.

[Saint Devote]

If FOTA breaks away the pinnacle of motorsport will travel with them. F1 will become not much more than a spec car series. I'd gladly celebrate racing with rules set by those supporting racing with millions and millions of dollars ever year, rather than the way it is now, with the teams having no say for the greater profit of the bumbling idiots running the show.

I have no problems with my reasoning abilities. It's been clear to me for years that Max and the FIA push forward with stupid ideas that cost the teams money, and the teams finally got sick of it.

F1 governed by the FIA and run by Bernie made a lot of money for people such as Briatore.

All they had to do was turn up and race.

Lets see how they do. Bernie makes it look easy and exactly how will FOTA guarantee that their manufacturers will not witdraw from the series? Renault have come and gone a couple of times for example.

Teams, such as Williams live by being racing teams. Real racing teams.

[K-Pu]

If FOTA breaks away the pinnacle of motorsport will travel with them. F1 will become not much more than a spec car series. I'd gladly celebrate racing with rules set by those supporting racing with millions and millions of dollars ever year, rather than the way it is now, with the teams having no say for the greater profit of the bumbling idiots running the show.

I have no problems with my reasoning abilities. It's been clear to me for years that Max and the FIA push forward with stupid ideas that cost the teams money, and the teams finally got sick of it.

The problem is that the teams are looking only for their own profit. And when I say the teams I point to all of them but more specifically to the manufactures.

What´s they key to success? Do what suits your purposes, no matter how. If some manufacturer has to leave the FOTA because they´ll find greener pastures with the FIA, they´ll surely do it. And what if the new (and hypothetical) FOTA series turn out to be really powerful, and the man in charge likes-enjoys-abuses it?

The (impossible) soultion would be controlling somehow the governing body, then getting rid of Bernie and Max and then DON´T let the teams run the series. Now everything looks great because Max is nuts and Bernie is a greedy hellspawn, and teams seem to be on the right side... But are they really different from the FIA? Yes and no. They are far more divided, and Max has done with them whatever he liked. But when it comes to potential abuse of the business which is F1, I don´t care who´s in charge because the final outcome will be the same.

That´s why a split would not solve anything. Or at least not in the long term, because let´s assume the FOTA series become the new Formula 1, and the original Formula 1 dissapears, or becomes a feeder series or whatever. We´d have another F1, with a different name but the same in spirit, or even worse. I would not give the power so a bunch of greedy individualists, taking it from a megalomaniac and a greedy thing.

Conclussion: We (the fans) are f*cked, as always. There´ll be no dream-like series unless someone really sensible is in charge, and I can´t see it happening. Just look at how are they negotiating!

[ShiftingGears]

Teams, such as Williams live by being racing teams. Real racing teams.

And they'd break away with FOTA if they could afford it.

[markabilly]

I support the FIA / FOA and not FOTA at all.

F1 and the drivers world championship will not be FOTA no matter who is there.

No team is bigger than the sport and even if a Ferrari is not present then that will be their own decision.

Briatore has been bucking for something like this for a long time. He sees himself as another Bernie I think.

I attended the South African Grand Prix in 1981 where no Mclaren or Ferrari was present and, won by Carlos Reutemann in the Williams it was as enjoyable.

F1 is suposed to be a constructors and drivers championship and with teams such as Williams and new teams such as USF1 and Cosworth it will be.

Teams that are RACING teams and not looking to sell automobiles and spending ridiculous amounts of money. Maybe if there is a break up f1 will return to the great days when it was not dominated by the manufacturers but by racing teams constructors. And the drivers were kewl dudes without pretention that would mix with the fans.

Why not have drivers such as Pantano, Bruno, di Grassi and Davidson - maybe even Bourdais and Sato and Paffett who will establish themselves in f1 and be given a chance to race?

And if Monte Carlo will only go where Ferrari is, then let them. New tracks will be established and a new f1 - back to the future - will flourish.

I support Bernie. I always have and I will not change now.


F1 governed by the FIA and run by Bernie made a lot of money for people such as Briatore.

All they had to do was turn up and race.

Lets see how they do. Bernie makes it look easy and exactly how will FOTA guarantee that their manufacturers will not witdraw from the series? Renault have come and gone a couple of times for example.

Teams, such as Williams live by being racing teams. Real racing teams.

AMEN, kool aid drinker man, go for it!!!

Nothin wrong with this line of reasoning, you would have done well at the last reverend Jimmie Jones revevial meeting down in Guyana

No doubt been first in line for the koolest kool aid....

well it ain't too late, step right this way and have a sip of the finest kool aid since then, and you will see all with clarity, even if you are blind in one eye and can not see out the other........

:beer:

And are you really MaXiepad in cognitio as a saint?
I would have thought benrie, but he is jewish and don't believe in saints, sooooooo?????? (but he is "devote" to money)

[wmcot]

Personally, while I do not want to see a break up - I support the FIA / FOA and not FOTA at all.

F1 and the drivers world championship will not be FOTA no matter who is there.

No team is bigger than the sport and even if a Ferrari is not present then that will be their own decision.

Briatore has been bucking for something like this for a long time. He sees himself as another Bernie I think.

I attended the South African Grand Prix in 1981 where no Mclaren or Ferrari was present and, won by Carlos Reutemann in the Williams it was as enjoyable.

F1 is suposed to be a constructors and drivers championship and with teams such as Williams and new teams such as USF1 and Cosworth it will be.

Teams that are RACING teams and not looking to sell automobiles and spending ridiculous amounts of money. Maybe if there is a break up f1 will return to the great days when it was not dominated by the manufacturers but by racing teams constructors. And the drivers were kewl dudes without pretention that would mix with the fans.

Why not have drivers such as Pantano, Bruno, di Grassi and Davidson - maybe even Bourdais and Sato and Paffett who will establish themselves in f1 and be given a chance to race?

And if Monte Carlo will only go where Ferrari is, then let them. New tracks will be established and a new f1 - back to the future - will flourish.

I support Bernie. I always have and I will not change now.

Well you are DEVOTEd, but Bernie ain't no SAINT!

[ioan]

Personally, while I do not want to see a break up - I support the FIA / FOA and not FOTA at all.

I see you managed to find this forum too after they laughed you out on the autosport forum.

[jens]

I see that the FOTA-sceptics have again played that "car manufacturers" card, their uncertainty of racing and "lack of racing soul".

Well, for me it's in a way quite clear that in Bernie's model of F1 it's not surprising the future of car manufacturers is unclear, because they get too little revenue. It is said that Toyota, Renault and maybe BMW would leave F1 very soon - and yes, I agree, they would leave current F1 for sure. But it's a different story with that breakaway series and it seems manufacturers are really commited to it, because the series becomes finacially more viable and if the losses of teams are smaller (making money of running a series vs spending on their team) or even if the series is profitable, car manufactures don't have such a big reason to leave, if any at all. Honda's situation was rather bad - they had no sponsorship, so that the car company had to pay all expenditures. Plus their WCC positions were so poor they didn't get much money from there either, so the losses were too big to really swallow for the parent company. I don't think we have such a radical case among current participants.

Several car manufacturers have hinted that they won't join F1 as long as Max is at helm. I wouldn't rule out we would have even more 'big' names in the FOTA-led series in the future.

[ioan]

Looks like Max did try to bite way more than his prosthesis allows for:


"We have tried to compromise, we have opened the door, we have tried everything," he said. "We have had the door closed in our face. The agreement has not been done by FOTA]

Now its not F1 teams he'll be fighting but the manufacturers themselves. He managed to get himself noticed by some of the most powerful people around, and not in a positive way at all.


Looks like he's managed to make lots of personal enemies with is stupid comments:
[quote="Flavio Briatore @ autospsort.com":26249ayw]
"Max is going personal all the time," said Briatore. "I'm too much of a gentleman to go personal. If he wants to go personal, I have a lot to say about Max. I know. He needs to stop insulting people."

"If he is talking about lunatics and stuff like that, he needs to watch himself, to just do the best job possible for him, the teams and not go personal, insulting me, the people from FOTA, the people from ACEA.

"It's enough. If there is somebody who needs to be very quiet in their personal life, it's him because for sure he is not a [good] example, to be president with what he has in his personal life.

"He needs to stop making it personal all the time."

And a little allusion at Max not having anything in hand:


"I see myself exactly like I am. I am in FOTA. I believe in FOTA - I was one of the first to believe in FOTA," he said. "I believe FOTA is strong, we want a championship with the best teams in the world, the best drivers in the world, and want the people in F1 who have the knowledge of being in F1, not GP3 or GP4.

"We want real teams, not empty boxes. We are very curious because Friday was the deadline to announce the teams for the FIA 2010 championship.

"It was very hard for us to really be ready for Friday. This was supposed to be the day for the list of the new teams in Formula 1. I don't see this list. I am very curious to see this list."[/quote:26249ayw]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76477

[Robinho]

not sure if its been mentioned, but i read on "the mole" on the BBC site that on wednesday the teams had as good as agreed with the FIA the rules for next year and were all set to drop the conditions, agreeing to stay til at least 2012, only Max changed the paperwork sent to the teams to read 2015 instead - the teams took this as the last straw and changed their minds, hence the announcement on Thursday - if this is true than Moseley is a bigger prick than i thought

[jens]

not sure if its been mentioned, but i read on "the mole" on the BBC site that on wednesday the teams had as good as agreed with the FIA the rules for next year and were all set to drop the conditions, agreeing to stay til at least 2012, only Max changed the paperwork sent to the teams to read 2015 instead - the teams took this as the last straw and changed their minds, hence the announcement on Thursday - if this is true than Moseley is a bigger prick than i thought

Hm. I am a bit doubtful it's true and that teams would have agreed to stay so easily. After all their goal is to get rid of Max in the process, not to help to stay him until 2012 or whenever.

I personally find it quite interesting that in winter Jean Todt left Ferrari (may it be suggested that his goal is to become a FIA president after that?) and now Luca di Montezemolo is rather actively working against Max. Hoping that the collapse of F1 will force Max to retire too?

But while FOTA has made its goals clear (breakaway), then I'm wondering, what will be Mosley's further actions. Will he try to sue the teams as long as possible until 2010 to somehow bind them with F1?

[ioan]

But while FOTA has made its goals clear (breakaway), then I'm wondering, what will be Mosley's further actions. Will he try to sue the teams as long as possible until 2010 to somehow bind them with F1?

He can sue them as long as he wants, because they will not have to commit to anything as long as there is no court decision, and anyway no court in the world can force them to take part in the series if they don't want to.

It's a lose lose situation for Max.