Breaking News: FOTA offer urgent compromise before Friday deadline

[Giuseppe F1]

And FOTA looking to extend entry deadline for another 2 weeks until July 1st, so maybe it will be 3rd time lucky!!

--------------




FOTA urge for compromise in row

By Simon Strang
Wednesday, June 17th 2009, 11:37 GMT

The Formula One Team's Association (FOTA) has sent a letter to the FIA calling for urgent compromise in the row over next year's rules to prevent the possibility of a breakaway series.

According to a report from Reuters news agency, the teams have offered to sign up to a version of the proposed budget cap, with provisos included, and have asked to extend the entry lock-off deadline to July 1 to allow time for further negotiations and sign a new Concorde Agreement.

"The time has come when, in the interests of the sport, we must all seek to compromise and bring an urgent conclusion to the protracted debate regarding the 2010 world championship," Reuters quoted the letter as saying.

"We hope that you will consider that this letter represents significant movement by the teams, all of whom have clearly stated a willingness to commit to the sport until the end of 2012.

"We would therefore strongly but respectfully submit that you consider these proposals and seek to avoid the potential departure from Formula One of some important teams.

"Now is the time to find a reasonable and rapid solution to the outstanding issues."

FOTA says in the letter that its teams could sign up to a version of the budget cap, or what it calls the 'resource restriction proposal' so long as it is independently policed and universal for all. In return for accepting this compromise the current teams would assist new entries with engine supplies and technical assistance.

"We detect... that a solution might be possible based on the FOTA resource restriction proposal but with measures introduced," the letter said.

"We would propose in this respect that we nominate a top firm of independent accountants who will devise an audit methodology that will be implemented by all of the teams.

"This methodology and the annual results would be disclosed to the FIA... we can see no reason why such a system based on objective verification of compliance would not be acceptable to all parties."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76263

----------------------------------------

[B]Teams offer compromise to end F1 crisis
Alliance offer ‘significant movement’ on rule stance
17/06/09 12:42[/B[


The FIA has made clear the cap will be £40m
as FOTA come in with higher offer
F1's ‘rebel’ FOTA members have moved to end the standoff with the FIA by devising a final offer of compromise, it emerged on Wednesday.

With Friday looming as yet another crunch deadline, the association - comprised of every current team except Williams and Force India - wrote to Max Mosley with a proposal to resolve the dispute over the budget cap rules.

"The time has come when, in the interests of the sport, we must all seek to compromise and bring an urgent conclusion to the protracted debate regarding the 2010 world championship," the letter read, according to Reuters.

"We hope that you will consider that this letter represents significant movement by the teams, all of whom have clearly stated a willingness to commit to the sport until the end of 2012," it added.


In the letter, FOTA proposes that the budget cap - now called ‘resource restriction’ - be policed by a group of independent accountants of their choosing, with annual results submitted to the FIA.

"We can see no reason why such a system based on objective verification of compliance would not be acceptable to all parties," the letter read.

FIA President Max Mosley had agreed to soften the 2010 cap to 100m Euros, before it reduces to €45m/£40m in 2011.

FOTA is also seeking that Friday's deadline for finalising the 2010 entry list be extended for nearly another two weeks, to July 1st, so that a new Concorde Agreement can be negotiated and signed.

E.A. © CAPSIS International
Source: GMM


http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090617124225.shtml

[Giuseppe F1]

Mosely has now responded to the FOTA teams - does the below sound like an (positive) ending/compromise is now in sight:


Mosley responds to FOTA

17/06/2009

Max Mosley has today sent the following in response to FOTA's letter of 16 June

Thank you for your letter of 16 June

Using your numbering

1. Governance

As explained during the meeting of 11 June, if we start to modify the governance provisions of the 1988 Concorde Agreement, a lengthy discussion will begin. There is no time left for this because we must answer the remaining applicants for 2010 no later then Friday.

There are elements in your proposals which we may be able to agree to, but we need time to look at them. For example, your ICA proposals would involve changes to the FIA statutes.

Our proposal is therefore that all parties agree to accept the 1998 governance provisions by means of an exchange of letters. We can then negotiate a new 2009 Concorde Agreement under the protection of the 1998 arrangements. After all, we lived with these for ten years, a few more weeks or months should not cause any difficulty.

2. Resources

No useful discussion was possible at the meeting of financial experts on 15 June because the FOTA representatives stated they were under instruction not to discuss the FIA's 2010 rules.

As the FIA financial rules are those worked out with the teams last year, it is very difficult for us to understand the repeated refusal of FOTA even to discuss them.

We have already offered to accept the report of a reputable auditor backed up by the signature of a main company board member where applicable. Any suspicions of brech would be investigated by a mutually acceptable auditor of suitable standing and any sanctions would be financial under a pre-agreed formula.

A fundamental problem with the FOTA proposal was the absence of a clear figure. The teams need to know what the constraints are, so do we.

We therefore propose that you accept the 2010 rules, as published, which we agreed with you last year. If necessary, these can be revised within the above governance procedures in due course.

3. Two Tier Regulations

As agreed on 15 May, there will be one set of regulations. These will incorporate the changes agreed on 11 June. As explained (and we thought agreed) at the 11 June meeting, the Cosworth has to be allowed to run without limitation in 2010 (i.e. the 2006 duty cycle for a 2006 engine), because Cosworth have neither the time nor the resources to retune for 2010. Any engineer will confirm that this will not give the teams any competitive advantage whatsoever.

4 Legal Documents/Next Steps

We will shortly send a letter for signature to each team. If signed and returned, the letter will make the above proposals legally binding and the relevant team's entry unconditional.

Max Mosley

Article from Pitpass (http://www.pitpass.com):

Published: 17/06/2009
Copyright © Pitpass 2002 - 2009. All rights reserved.

[Dave B]

Hmm.

FOTA: We're willing to compromise, give us another week or two.

FIA: No, I though we already had compromised.

Doesn't sound that promising to me :s

[N. Jones]

There is billions of dollars at stake in F1 and I believe this will be the major factor in both parties coming to some sort of an agreement.

Any type of split will damage both sides in the long run (re: loss of profit) and therefore will be avoided at all costs.

[ArrowsFA1]

does the below sound like an (positive) ending/compromise is now in sight
Not really because neither are (publicly at least) offering anything new. Essentially, as Dave says, FOTA are looking for compromise and the FIA are repeating their stance - sign up to the 2010 rules and we'll talk.

[Knock-on]

I like the idea of an external accountant. Much fairer and transparent and I cannot see any reason for the FIA not to accept this point. Any reason unless Max has a vested interest in not having a fair and transparant process ;)

Max has basically put a gun to the FOTA heads and said sign up of fcuk off.

[Bagwan]

So , they offer compromise , and it is rebuffed .

Since last race there were rumours of the teams boycotting the start of the race , it begs wonder if the rumour will fly at Silverstone , now that Max has said no .

Will the podium have Rosberg in first , Nakajima in second and the fish third in a 4 car race ? That would be exciting .

Will Silverstone get to hold it's final race ?
Get ready for a historic event .

[Dave B]

I might put £20 each way on Nico :crazy:

[ArrowsFA1]

Get ready for a historic event.
It's ironic that circuit that hosted the first race of the 'modern' era will now play host to these machinations :crazy:

[ioan]

Time for FOTA to announce a new series for next season.
Than Bernie will hunt Max in the paddock with a shot gun! :D

It's ironic that circuit that hosted the first race of the 'modern' era will now play host to these machinations :crazy:

Not really. Ferrari didn't attend the first event of the modern era, showing that rows beween organisers and teams are nothing new.

http://www.formula1blog.com/2008/09/28/missed-races/

[AndyL]

I might put £20 each way on Nico :crazy:

Fisi would be good value at 1000-1!

I suspect bookies in Woking and Maranello probably have the clearest idea of whether FOTA are planning to boycott the race :) ISTR a few bookies in Woking, Grove, Brackley, Enstone etc got cleaned out over the Indy tyre debacle.

[Dave B]

Just got 40/1 on Nico ;)

Edit: just as I do that it appears Max has offered a further compromise.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76269

[Sonic]

Quote

"There will be no two tier"

Quote

"Cosworth can run unrestricted"

LMAO!

On a possitive note there does seem to be a softening of position by Max and the FIA.

[maximilian]

It's ironic that circuit that hosted the first race of the 'modern' era will now play host to these machinations :crazy:

What's even MORE ironic is, that this iconic track is yet the latest one to be falling off the calendar forever! :(

[VkmSpouge]

Well by the sounds of it there doesn't appear much space between the FIA and FOTA, basically the FIA want the FOTA teams to sign up before they talk and the FOTA teams want to talk before they sign up. At least everyone wants to do both.

[ioan]

... and the FOTA teams want to talk before they sign up.

Which is more than understandable!

[Knock-on]

I think it's great that even before a consensus has been reached on a cap, they have already outlined the penalty for breaking it.

Basically, it looks like you can spend more than the cap as long as you pay blackmail money to the FIA.

:laugh:

What a joke!!

[yodasarmpit]

Which is more than understandable!It would be if FOTA hadn't sat on their backsides for weeks, they could have better spent the time negotiating and have this all cleared up before the deadline.

[ioan]

It would be if FOTA hadn't sat on their backsides for weeks, they could have better spent the time negotiating and have this all cleared up before the deadline.

Same applies for the FIA.

[VkmSpouge]

Both sides will have to take equal share of the blame if this goes wrong.


Which is more than understandable!

Well both are entirely understandable.

[Hawkmoon]

The budget cap is unworkable. Unless the financial penalties for breaching the cap are astronomically huge then Ferrari, McLaren, Toyota etc will just factor the fine into their budget and spend what they like.

I also don't like the sound of unrestricted Cosworth engines. I can see Williams, Force India and Brawn looking at Cosworths in the future. Max tried to get a standard engine just recently. Looks like he's trying again.

[wmcot]

Max doesn't seem to be his unmoveable self anymore. I wonder if Bernie is starting to pressure him to get this settled?

[ArrowsFA1]

Max has now said he is:

prepared to discuss the FIA's International Court of Appeal[/*:m:3dmk5di8]
prepared to remove the controversial Appendix 5 to the 2010 Sporting Regulations[/*:m:3dmk5di8]
willing to change some of the technical regulations for 2010[list:3dmk5di8]
moveable wing rules will remain as they were for 2009[/*:m:3dmk5di8]
4WD cars will not be allowed[/*:m:3dmk5di8]
tyre warmers will continue[/*:m:3dmk5di8]
engine rules will remain as they are for this year except customer Cosworth units will be allowed to run unrestricted[/*:m:3dmk5di8]
gearbox rules will remain as they are for 2009, as will testing limitations[/*:m:3dmk5di8][/*:m:3dmk5di8]
willing to accept a 100 million Euros cost cap limit for next year
providing that it was reduced to 45 million Euros for 2011[/*:m:3dmk5di8][/*:m:3dmk5di8][/list:u:3dmk5di8]http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76269

Is there really much new there, and is it enough to convince FOTA who, according to Autosport, "has 48 hours to to decide whether to accept the terms and sign up for F1, or decide to stand firm and risk being left off the grid".

[I am evil Homer]

Hmmm....he seems at first glance to have softened his stance on the technical aspects to what could be an acceptable degree. But the revenue and Concorde agreement issues seem to be a big issue within FOTA so who knows.

[Valve Bounce]

A lot of bargaining is ahead before horses can be traded.

[555-04Q2]

The circus never leaves town :(

[Valve Bounce]

The elephants are getting restless. :(

[ioan]

Well both are entirely understandable.

Really?
What have the FIA done to deserve total control?
Do they field cars? Do they spend billions over the years?

No! They do nothing else but come up with incredibly stupid rules year after year.

[ioan]

Max has now said he is:

prepared to discuss the FIA's International Court of Appeal[/*:m:1ge0ssj1]
prepared to remove the controversial Appendix 5 to the 2010 Sporting Regulations[/*:m:1ge0ssj1]
willing to change some of the technical regulations for 2010[list:1ge0ssj1]
moveable wing rules will remain as they were for 2009[/*:m:1ge0ssj1]
4WD cars will not be allowed[/*:m:1ge0ssj1]
tyre warmers will continue[/*:m:1ge0ssj1]
engine rules will remain as they are for this year except customer Cosworth units will be allowed to run unrestricted[/*:m:1ge0ssj1]
gearbox rules will remain as they are for 2009, as will testing limitations[/*:m:1ge0ssj1][/*:m:1ge0ssj1]
willing to accept a 100 million Euros cost cap limit for next year
providing that it was reduced to 45 million Euros for 2011[/*:m:1ge0ssj1][/*:m:1ge0ssj1][/list:u:1ge0ssj1]http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76269

Is there really much new there, and is it enough to convince FOTA who, according to Autosport, "has 48 hours to to decide whether to accept the terms and sign up for F1, or decide to stand firm and risk being left off the grid".

Some get to run unrestricted engines = two tier championship.
No mention of new Concorde Agreement.

Nothing changed.

He wants the team to susbscribe to the 98 Concorde agreement and than talk to a wall.

The '98 agreement only gives the teams 35% of the F1 revenues, while they since 2005 have the right to 50%!

Looks to me that this is a try by Bernie and Max to take more money out of the sport to pay the CVC debt back to RBS.

[Sonic]

Some get to run unrestricted engines = two tier championship..

Indeed. Unexceptable in my eyes. I was starting to think I was the only one who thought it was wrong (I posted this yesterday earlier in the thread).

I can't say I agree with you re: your 'what gives the FIA the right' stance though Ioan. The FIA are the gouverning body for right or wrong and can do whatever they like.

[Tazio]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76280


Double world champion Fernando Alonso says he would be prepared to walk away from Formula 1 if it did not feature the best teams and drivers in the world next year.


Alonso said that he was not ready to retire from competition and that his top priority was to race in the world's
most competitive and technologically advanced series - whatever it may be called.

It's like this Freakin' guy can read my mind :p :

The Circus has a new Ringmaster, :)

Or just another sideshow freak :(

Whether you love him, hate him, or are indifferent to him,
I'm glad he understands what the series is about, and what fans want out of F1. :up:

[AndyL]

Indeed. Unexceptable in my eyes. I was starting to think I was the only one who thought it was wrong (I posted this yesterday earlier in the thread).

It does seem a bizarre thing for Max to offer in a "compromise" except as something to be bargained away later. Clearly Mercedes, Ferrari et al are never in a million years going to accept that Cosworth should be allowed more liberal rules than they have to work under themselves.


I can't say I agree with you re: your 'what gives the FIA the right' stance though Ioan. The FIA are the gouverning body for right or wrong and can do whatever they like.

Hmmm, just because they can doesn't mean they should, however. The FIA might be as gods in motorsport, in a sense, but a fair and just god will gain more followers than a capricious one.

[schmenke]

...The FIA are the gouverning body for right or wrong and can do whatever they like.

Well, not really. As dictatorial as Mad Max may seem, the FIA cannot simply "do whatever they want". They can propose changes to current technical, sporting and safety regulations, but the teams must all agree to them before implementation.

Max’s stance in the current dispute is that the teams did, if anything in principle, previously agree to the propose changes for the 2010 regulations.

[Bagwan]

In everyone's eyes but Max's , the loss of the top competitors , let alone 80% of them , in any sport , is seen as bad .

The teams would like to run the same cars as this year .
Barring the fact that Brawn is running away , the racing is not so bad .
One can easily see the Brawn runaway issue as originating with the FIA stance on diffusers , and it was widely speculated that it was a tactic to break up FOTA in it's infancy .

If this is true , it having counteracted the stated object of making the cars able to follow closely , and perpetuated a runaway scenario , and multiple court and WMSC meetings , seems to not only be rather disingenuous , but also careless to the effect on the championship standings .

Those meetings , over something which they could have clarifed immediately , cost an awful lot of cash and perhaps more importantly focus , off the issue of rules and governance in general . It was also widely speculated , especially once Max used one of those meetings to announce his plans , that that was a part of the tactics in the first place as well .

The standings effect the whole game , not just the championship . To have manipulated the game in this way is atrocious .

Cosworth has essentially signed on to this scenario where they are unlimitted , as they will be supplying the new entrants .
This is not likely a negotiable item .

This will not work .

FOTA cannot sign , as that is the only way Max will change the rules , and they cannot have them as they are , and he will not give them what they want .

I say , they should announce to the world that Silverstone will hold a race next year with the same drivers cars and teams they know and love .

[VkmSpouge]

Really?
What have the FIA done to deserve total control?
Do they field cars? Do they spend billions over the years?

I've never really thought that fielding cars should be enough to deserve total control either.

No side deserves total control of Formula 1 and frankly if a split were to happen it will have proved that neither the FIA or FOTA were capable of running F1. I'm still hoping what little common sense is left in the politics of Formula 1 will prevail and we can get back to discussing events on the track rather than this.

[Bagwan]

I've never really thought that fielding cars should be enough to deserve total control either.

No side deserves total control of Formula 1 and frankly if a split were to happen it will have proved that neither the FIA or FOTA were capable of running F1. I'm still hoping what little common sense is left in the politics of Formula 1 will prevail and we can get back to discussing events on the track rather than this.

This is where Max has confused the issue for everyone .
The FOTA group does not want to RUN a new series , nor does it want to RUN the FIA .
They want stable rules and governance .

Here's a simple example :
If the IOC were to say that no athlete should be able to use shoes , given that they increase speed and height and distance , so equate to a performance enhancing item .
Would all the countries agree to this from the governing body and require the athletes comply ?
Or would they refuse to come , unless the new rules were recanted first ?

They want a ruling body , and have contacted one ahead of setting up a new series .
They have never stated they want to rule , but rather have asked that the governance be fundamentally altered . In other words , Max needs to go .

[VkmSpouge]

You're probably quite right, FOTA don't want to run F1 or their own series, they just want a better say in things.

[Robinho]

the cosworth running unlimited thing is the final random bargaining chip Max has thrown in - FOTA will come back and accept everything else on the condition Cosworth limit to 18k like everything else, not realising they have given up most of the other stuff they were never willing to budge on originally.

Max does it every time, offers something ridiculous to get something that he actually wants trhough instead, this time he's nearly messed the whole thing up, but i feel they'll all meet tomorrow and agree on the compromise deal less the unlimited cossie

[ClarkFan]

Looks to me that this is a try by Bernie and Max to take more money out of the sport to pay the CVC debt back to RBS.

That appears to be the core of this - money. If the teams can run on 45M a year, Bernie need only give them an occasional bowl of gruel, leaving more money to funnel to Royal Bankrupt of Scotland. 10 teams x 100M = 1B; 13 teams x 45M = 585M. Guess who gets to keep the 415M?

ClarkFan

[ioan]

I can't say I agree with you re: your 'what gives the FIA the right' stance though Ioan. The FIA are the gouverning body for right or wrong and can do whatever they like.

Self elected governing body.
It's like if someone wanting to govern UK without having been elected by the people to do so. Totally unacceptable in the 21st century!

[ioan]

No side deserves total control of Formula 1 and frankly if a split were to happen it will have proved that neither the FIA or FOTA were capable of running F1.

Only that the FOTA never ran the f1 so you are making them accountable for something they never did! :p

[AndyL]

That appears to be the core of this - money. If the teams can run on 45M a year, Bernie need only give them an occasional bowl of gruel, leaving more money to funnel to Royal Bankrupt of Scotland. 10 teams x 100M = 1B; 13 teams x 45M = 585M. Guess who gets to keep the 415M?

Oh, it's RBS that CVC owes the money to? That's interesting. Imagine if the split goes ahead and CVC starts losing TV income, can't pay the debt, RBS has them wound up, and the British taxpayer ends up owning the media rights to Formula 1 :eek: I can't see that ending well... I bet we'd get Grand Prix at Silverstone and Donington though...

[VkmSpouge]

I'm still hoping what little common sense is left in the politics of Formula 1 will prevail and we can get back to discussing events on the track rather than this.

So much for that.


Only that the FOTA never ran the f1 so you are making them accountable for something they never did! :p

FOTA's actions aren't in running F1 but I hold them equally accountable with the FIA for this mess because neither side was able to reach a solution that benefited both.

[ioan]

FOTA's actions aren't in running F1 but I hold them equally accountable with the FIA for this mess because neither side was able to reach a solution that benefited both.

You are holding someone accountable for something which isn't up to them?! :laugh:

[Koz]

You are holding someone accountable for something which isn't up to them?! :laugh:

Woe to the vanquished! :p

[Robinho]

the cosworth running unlimited thing is the final random bargaining chip Max has thrown in - FOTA will come back and accept everything else on the condition Cosworth limit to 18k like everything else, not realising they have given up most of the other stuff they were never willing to budge on originally.

Max does it every time, offers something ridiculous to get something that he actually wants trhough instead, this time he's nearly messed the whole thing up, but i feel they'll all meet tomorrow and agree on the compromise deal less the unlimited cossie


of course i might be wrong on this D'OH!

[wmcot]

Self elected governing body.
It's like if someone wanting to govern UK without having been elected by the people to do so. Totally unacceptable in the 21st century!

You mean like a Queen? ;)

[wmcot]

FOTA's actions aren't in running F1 but I hold them equally accountable with the FIA for this mess because neither side was able to reach a solution that benefited both.

It takes 2 to compromise and saying, "sign this and then we'll talk" isn't compromise.

[52Paddy]

Was the deadline extended to July, then, or did they talk yesterday?

[ClarkFan]

Oh, it's RBS that CVC owes the money to? That's interesting. Imagine if the split goes ahead and CVC starts losing TV income, can't pay the debt, RBS has them wound up, and the British taxpayer ends up owning the media rights to Formula 1 :eek: I can't see that ending well... I bet we'd get Grand Prix at Silverstone and Donington though...

And Brands Hatch, Goodwood, Aintree.....

The sun would never set on HRH's Formula One Championship.

:p

ClarkFan

[AndyL]

And Brands Hatch, Goodwood, Aintree.....

The sun would never set on HRH's Formula One Championship.

:p

I think Goodwood and Aintree may need a little work to hold an F1 race ;) I'd go for Brooklands - we could knock down Tesco and Marks & Spencer and re-lay the track... keep the museum and Mercedes Benz World, it'd be great!

[Knock-on]

I think Goodwood and Aintree may need a little work to hold an F1 race ;) I'd go for Brooklands - we could knock down Tesco and Marks & Spencer and re-lay the track... keep the museum and Mercedes Benz World, it'd be great!

What about the Sunday Market. Perhaps they could have a 2 hour pause to allow the GP to run.

[AndyRAC]

Aintree would need a hell of a lot of work, there are 2 new Grandstands were the final corner once was........


....shame!!