Breath of fresh air

[V12]

I'm aware there's already a Le Mans 2009 topic...

But I just want to say what an absolute breath of fresh air this year's race was. The reason simply being the backdrop of what is happening in F1: politics, potential splits, arguments over the entry list which has been limited to 13 teams, spec engines and spec parts looming on the horizon, spec tyres, etc. etc. etc.

I was stopping at my girlfriends' this weekend (just got home!) but I luckily managed to persuade her into letting me watch a good 5 or 6 hours of the race (thanks Eurosport for the wall-to-wall coverage!). It reminded why I fell in love in the sport in the first place - a good, old fashioned meritocratical race involving manufacturers, specialist constructors, privateers, all competing in a variety of machinery in terms of both chassis and engine architecture, and that's just the prototypes.

It was just the therapy I needed to stop me becoming disillusioned with the sport altogether, and strengthened by resolve to go there in person once I am able to save up for the trip.

I realise Le Mans and the ACO aren't perfect, arguments over diesel/petrol equivalency, "Formula Le Mans" one-make evilness and so on, but it was still a great spectacle, and reminded me that you don't need semi-scripted "close racing" and last lap dramas (not that they are likely in a 24 hour race anyway, but still), to just watch a good motor race. I reckon if you could get a single seater, two hour, single driver version of what I saw at the weekend, run in the same spirit, it would beat F1 hands down.

So congratulations to Peugeot (the manufacturer and the team), Michelin (who unlike Bridgestone every fortnight in F1, actually deserve their victory), David Brabham, Marc Gene and Alex Wurz, and a wholehearted thanks to all the drivers, teams, team members, chassis, engine, tyre and component manufacturers, the ACO and everyone who made the race happen - sorry if that sounds like a sickly American-style award acceptance speech, but it's the truth! You all made my weekend.

[AndyRAC]

I'd agree with you. What Motor Racing is all about - I really enjoyed it. I really do hope to go one year.

[wedge]

I felt sick reading that.

Yes the ACO isn't perfect and the Audi front wing debacle has yet to find a conclusion.

No championship is safe from political controversy.

A fantastic weekend of motorsport indeed but the closest to Utopia was Rossi in Spain. No political BS and the only controversy worth taking note was a rivalry between team mates on the race track.

[harvick#1]

I felt sick reading that.

Yes the ACO isn't perfect and the Audi front wing debacle has yet to find a conclusion.

No championship is safe from political controversy.


same here, right when the teams came to Lemans, Peugeot protested the Audi right away, that sounds like politics to me.

[wedge]

And they want it to take it up to the FIA

[V12]

Yeah I watched MotoGP for a bit but to be honest I gave up when they joined F1 in the "we love Bridgestone" club. And they are starting to tow the "cost-cutting" line and I heard something about a spec engine for the new Moto2 category? As I said sportscar racing aint perfect but right now it's the best I got.

And the way I see it, the protest against the Audi front wing is similar to the diffuser thing (I hate using the suffix -gate) in F1, which I specifically didn't mention in my post because I love that sort of thing, teams pushing the envelope of the rules, and there's bound to be disagreements, thats a whole different kettle of fish and I'll file that under "sporting" (because it's about teams trying to get, or preventing other teams from getting, the so-called unfair advantage), rather than "political".

And oh well, the Pugs won anyway! :up:

[AndyRAC]

Yeah I watched MotoGP for a bit but to be honest I gave up when they joined F1 in the "we love Bridgestone" club. And they are starting to tow the "cost-cutting" line and I heard something about a spec engine for the new Moto2 category? As I said sportscar racing aint perfect but right now it's the best I got.

And the way I see it, the protest against the Audi front wing is similar to the diffuser thing (I hate using the suffix -gate) in F1, which I specifically didn't mention in my post because I love that sort of thing, teams pushing the envelope of the rules, and there's bound to be disagreements, thats a whole different kettle of fish and I'll file that under "sporting" (because it's about teams trying to get, or preventing other teams from getting, the so-called unfair advantage), rather than "political".

And oh well, the Pugs won anyway! :up:

Problem for MotoGP is they seem to want to ape everything F1 does - and the fault lies with DORNA, who are in thrall to Honda. Honda don't like 2-strokes so the 250's are going :mad: . And now Honda have won the contract for the Moto2 engines.
Back to LeMans - I was disappointed by the Peugeot protest, but they obviously felt they were in their right.
There are rumblings about the new Diesel/Petrol regs, but that'd for another time.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Peugeot's protest will go no where...they won and were faster for crying out loud....

[Jag_Warrior]

I think even if Audi had won, we wouldn't be cursed with hearing that the Le Mans victory had been awarded/gifted to Peugeot in a couple of weeks. As goofy as the ACO can be, it seems like a well oiled machine compared to the complete joke that the FIA is these days. Even though Peugeot made its protest to the FIA, my understanding is that the FIA would not have the authority to play with the results, as it often seems to do in Formula One. Is that correct or not?

I enjoyed this year's Le Mans, as I enjoy it every year. It's the only race left with relevance, that hasn't been emasculated by constant chattering for "cost cuts". I get the same pleasure from watching Le Mans that I get from watching Monaco or Monza... and that I used to get from the Indy 500.

What really made my day was hearing that in order to enter a car for the Le Mans 24, it costs 38K Euros. To win brings 40K Euros. And there was a field full of professionally prepared cars. That, my friends, is a race which still has its relevance! :up:

[Claus Hansen]

Le Mans has no relevance, sporting wise, there's no points to be won, its not part of any championships, so manufactors spending money on it is not a relevance ! And a race where teams make a pistop so the can polish their cars, a not relevance !!!

This sound negative, but its not, trust me, i go every year... And go again next year ! But i really hate the fact, that this is a stand alone race, its plain stupid of ACO not letting the race count for points in Le Mans Series... And says a lot about their opion on the LMS !
Still, the spectator area's gets better year after year, and the camp sites now got free bathroom and so on...

[Jag_Warrior]

Why should it count for points in the LMS (or the ALMS)? Le Mans is Le Mans. It is and should be a stand alone event. Any support series are just that: support series. They might go away next year, or the year after that. But what I saw on Saturday and Sunday tells me that Le Mans will be there.

You don't have to buy some sort of dopey spec chassis from an auto racing version of Walmart. You can still buy or build what you feel is right for you, as long as it is within a rather broad set of rules (relatively speaking).

And yeah, if I had a multi lap lead, I'd polish my car too, if I knew I was about to win the last great race of our time. They're not out there for the money or some meaningless series points. They're out there to take victory at Le Mans. And that's the epitomy of sporting relevance, IMO.

I may not make it to Heaven. But I someday hope to be fortunate enough to attend the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

[wedge]

Great insight, as always, from Marshall Pruet

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/pruett-smokestack-lightning//P1/

Seems the Peugeot protests is another excuse at 'cost cutting' a al F1 and diffusers. Their new replacement for the 908 is near ready. Clarification on the front wings means R&D cost go up again.

[harvick#1]

totally agree with Jag, Le Mans is Le Mans. this race should never be in a series' schedule. thats whats also great about it. And I like it because its also a sort of All-Star show down between ALMS and LMS, along with a few Asian teams looking to break in

[Lee Roy]

Why should it count for points in the LMS (or the ALMS)? Le Mans is Le Mans. It is and should be a stand alone event. Any support series are just that: support series. They might go away next year, or the year after that. But what I saw on Saturday and Sunday tells me that Le Mans will be there.

You don't have to buy some sort of dopey spec chassis from an auto racing version of Walmart. You can still buy or build what you feel is right for you, as long as it is within a rather broad set of rules (relatively speaking).

And yeah, if I had a multi lap lead, I'd polish my car too, if I knew I was about to win the last great race of our time. They're not out there for the money or some meaningless series points. They're out there to take victory at Le Mans. And that's the epitomy of sporting relevance, IMO.

I may not make it to Heaven. But I someday hope to be fortunate enough to attend the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

Amen!!

[Bob Riebe]

Why should it count for points in the LMS (or the ALMS)? Le Mans is Le Mans. It is and should be a stand alone event. Any support series are just that: support series. They might go away next year, or the year after that. But what I saw on Saturday and Sunday tells me that Le Mans will be there.

You don't have to buy some sort of dopey spec chassis from an auto racing version of Walmart. You can still buy or build what you feel is right for you, as long as it is within a rather broad set of rules (relatively speaking).

And yeah, if I had a multi lap lead, I'd polish my car too, if I knew I was about to win the last great race of our time. They're not out there for the money or some meaningless series points. They're out there to take victory at Le Mans. And that's the epitomy of sporting relevance, IMO.

I may not make it to Heaven. But I someday hope to be fortunate enough to attend the 24 Hours of Le Mans.
Onyl fifteen years ago LeMans was little more than a club race that the FIA decided to play with.

To get to LeMans you have to be invited or by some other special qualification.
It is NOT even ClOSE to you build what you feel is right; the rules are narrow and extremely controlled. What wins is the type of car the ACO wants to win. Anyone else is first loser at best.
Simply a different type of spec. race.

[Jag_Warrior]

If simply having a rules set means "spec racing", then I guess there's no hope. But I don't see it that way. And if some people choose to bring knives to what has been announced as a gunfight, I see the result as rather Darwinian.

Except for GT1, I saw what I appreciate seeing at Le Mans: engineering excellence, a measure of innovation and strategic team work during an endurance event. :up:

[harvick#1]

Onyl fifteen years ago LeMans was little more than a club race that the FIA decided to play with.

To get to LeMans you have to be invited or by some other special qualification.
It is NOT even ClOSE to you build what you feel is right; the rules are narrow and extremely controlled. What wins is the type of car the ACO wants to win. Anyone else is first loser at best.
Simply a different type of spec. race.

I think that the race was great, the Petrol P1 class had great battle outside of Peugeot and Audi, P2 was great outside of Porsche Support, GT1 was a a farce this year, and GT2 had great battles as well until the Porsches started breaking down. this is hardly a spec series. no chassis is really the same, P2 had the Lola's, Porsche's, Radicals, Pescarolo's, and Zytecs (and should've been WR, what a joke the JLOC Lambo was). P1 was the same except adding AMR, Peugeot, Audi and taking out Porsche. there is plenty of innovation to go around that hardly makes it a spec series, if you want spec racing, watch Grand-Am.

[Jag_Warrior]

Yeah, all through LMP1 and LMP2, there was good competition between GTP's and sports racers. Am I supposed to believe those radically different design and engineering approaches were the same or were "spec", just because the top two used diesel engines in LMP1? A V10 turbo diesel in the R15 and a V12 turbo diesel in the 908. A sports racer vs. a GTP.

If the IRL can drag itself out of the graveyard and get V6 turbos vs. V8 turbos or gas vs. diesel for the Indy 500 anytime soon, someone please send me an urgent PM. And if anything other than off-the-shelf Dallaras are allowed to run after 2011 (2012, or is it 2013 now?), knock me over with a feather.

[V12]

Why should it count for points in the LMS (or the ALMS)? Le Mans is Le Mans. It is and should be a stand alone event. Any support series are just that: support series. They might go away next year, or the year after that. But what I saw on Saturday and Sunday tells me that Le Mans will be there.

You don't have to buy some sort of dopey spec chassis from an auto racing version of Walmart. You can still buy or build what you feel is right for you, as long as it is within a rather broad set of rules (relatively speaking).

And yeah, if I had a multi lap lead, I'd polish my car too, if I knew I was about to win the last great race of our time. They're not out there for the money or some meaningless series points. They're out there to take victory at Le Mans. And that's the epitomy of sporting relevance, IMO.

I may not make it to Heaven. But I someday hope to be fortunate enough to attend the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

I totally agree!!

I admit Championships with points accumulated over a season have their place, but at the end of the day they are just an abstraction. Taking other sports as an example, would Tiger Woods rather win The Open/The Masters, or be top of the Order of Merit? Would Federer, Nadal or Murray rather win Wimbledon or be top of the ATP Tennis rankings at the end of the year? (given a choice).

And making things more relevant, would Fangio, Farina, Moss or Ascari have gathered more satisfaction from winning the British/French/Italian/Monaco/*etc* Grand Prix, or winning the WDC? Ask any motor racing historian.

I'm not devaluing any "series" championship decided by points here (I was a vocal critic of Bernie's F1 medals idea), but I guess my point is whether it is a series or a standalone event, it is something to be won, and winning it means you beat every other contender over the same period of time, in the same setting(s), running to the same rules, and nobody can take that away.

Getting back to my original point, watching Le Mans reminded me of my early days of watching any form of top line motor sport, a contest that was won by the best combination of driver(s), machinery (car, engine, tyres, everything) and the team backing him/them up (which the new "F2"/FPA Plus is trying to eliminate too) - the long and short of it is, I just plain like that. Whether it was part of some greater championship or not is irrelevant to me.

[Bob Riebe]

Onyl fifteen years ago LeMans was little more than a club race that the FIA decided to play with.

To get to LeMans you have to be invited or by some other special qualification.
It is NOT even ClOSE to you build what you feel is right; the rules are narrow and extremely controlled. What wins is the type of car the ACO wants to win. Anyone else is first loser at best.
Simply a different type of spec. race.
It is not simply a set of rules; before the approved only specifiations the ACO uses now, one had broad boundaries between which one would remain. How one operated within the boundaries was strictly up to the car builder.

Now the teams are told how fast they can go; how much air/fuel is allowed into the engines; size tires that must be used; chassis must be pre-approved (the GT2 Farce Lou ran into magnifies the scam) etc.
That is spec. racing whether you like it or not; not really any different from Grand Am.
Just a the France family always had the chosen few; ACO/IMSA has its chosen few.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is not simply a set of rules; before the approved only specifiations the ACO uses now, one had broad boundaries between which one would remain. How one operated within the boundaries was strictly up to the car builder.

Now the teams are told how fast they can go; how much air/fuel is allowed into the engines; size tires that must be used; chassis must be pre-approved (the GT2 Farce Lou ran into magnifies the scam) etc.
That is spec. racing whether you like it or not; not really any different from Grand Am.
Just a the France family always had the chosen few; ACO/IMSA has its chosen few.


As loathe as I am to agree with you, I am on this one.

Of course, Riebe, you wouldn't be happy unless it was a true Formula Libre.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Again....I read Marshal's story on Speedtv.com. Peugeot may or may not have a point, but they kicked Audi tail so it is more or less a waste of everyone's time. The r15 didn't have the legs and Peugeot wont race the Audi's on a tight circuit where this extra downforce might even the score.

[Mark in Oshawa]

As for the idea that this is a pure event, it is, but the lack of a unified formula world wide with a series to go with it is kind of frustrating.

If the ALMS and LMS people didn't use ACO rules, this race would have a harder time filling the field me thinks. No factory will spend millions to just win one race a year in this new ecomony. You have to get your marketing rewards over the year.

Of course, if one race could get away with it...it is this one.

Jag is right, I may not get to heaven either, but I do have the LeMans 24 hour on my "bucket" list.

[Bob Riebe]

As loathe as I am to agree with you, I am on this one.

Of course, Riebe, you wouldn't be happy unless it was a true Formula Libre.
Actually I still miss and loved the '66-'72 Trans-Am rules.

As fascinating as the '73-'74 Grp 4 (and later even more mod.) type cars were, the original formula was still bestest.

Something VERY close, in rules, to the original Trans-Am now, is what road racing and Detroit need badly.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually I still miss and loved the '66-'72 Trans-Am rules.

As fascinating as the '73-'74 Grp 4 (and later even more mod.) type cars were, the original formula was still bestest.

Something VERY close, in rules, to the original Trans-Am now, is what road racing and Detroit need badly.

Bob...to an extent, that is what World Challenge is. They have more tight rules on some of the engines and what parts can be replaced, but most of that is to give cost containment.

[Bob Riebe]

Bob...to an extent, that is what World Challenge is. They have more tight rules on some of the engines and what parts can be replaced, but most of that is to give cost containment.
World Challenge has as artificially equalled performance regs as any other current series.
The cars are allowed FAR more mods than any Trans-Am car ever was.
The relocating of the firewall on the Cadillacs put it in bs category, as does the performance penaly bs.
Even in the AAGT years of the Trans-Am, and I found this out speaking at length from a gent who built one, all points were measured from the firewall and had to be within a fraction of an inch from where they were located on the prod. car.
He found out the hard way and had to rebuild his brand new car.

They need something as close to identical to the original as they can get.

[harvick#1]

Jag is right, I may not get to heaven either, but I do have the LeMans 24 hour on my "bucket" list.

same here, although Petit Lemans might strike my interest this year, I'd really like to see the R15 and 908's in person before they are gone in 2011. if I'm still umployeed, I may as well just make the trip and have some fun for the race