failed pit road speed system

[Wade91]

i agree with Carl Edwards i dont think the pit road speed system was working right at the the nationwide race last night :s

[Sparky1329]

I have to question it also. I have never seen so many cars penalized in a race ever. Could they all have been so wrong with the tach readings?

[Jonesi]

Something went wrong. It could have been something as small as a programming change that rounded instead of truncated, or the wrong distance entered. Could think of a few more possibilities, but I would have to know how much of the system is permanent to the track and how much is brought in for the race by Nascar.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If you guys understand how NASCAR does this, you will then understand that likely the wrong tach readings were given out to the drivers.

The system is based on loops (antennas for the computer actually) buried at equal distances along pit lane. There is one at each end, and then at fixed distances equidistant from each other along pit lane. There is a set time that a car has to be slower than going from loop to loop to not trip a penalty. The transponder on the car for timing and scoring is triggered by passing over the loops and it sends a time to the computer.

For example, if pit road speed is 35mph, and the loops are set so that interval is to be 5 seconds or slower between loops (NASCAR will figure it out exactly and they will keep their notes from year to year), any car going faster than that 5 seconds will come up on screen as being too fast. NASCAR will give the drivers a 5mph fudge factor as well so the limit may actually be 30mph and they will tell the teams that but allow up to 35 for a segement.

What happened at Kentucky was simply the drivers pushing the limit too hard and possibly being given either the wrong speed limit or the wrong tach number for that gear to meet that speed. This is set when they follow the pace car on the first lap or so and the pace car goes the pit lane speed limit and the guys follow to get an accurate tach reading. What is more, the teams calculate what that tach reading should be in 1st gear to get them down pit road legally.

What also can happen is drivers will push and speed up going into their stall or coming out since they are between loops when they stop or start at their pit box. That still can registar if they jump a little early as a penalty.

The true point I am making is NASCAR I suspect didn't make any mistake with their timing, the only error possible is the teams were either given the wrong speed or the teams were pushing things between segments and getting caught.

There is no timing "error" only human errors. The computer and timing system is the same that is used around the world in most forms of racing and NASCAR wasn't at Kentucky for the first time, so they knew what their segment times should be.

If there was a mistake on NASCAR's part, it appears they are not ever going to admit it, but I suspect the true errors were on the driver's part. They push the envelope all the time, and most drivers I have ever met in any form of racing are clueless when it comes to understanding how timing and scoring works. They can look at you in the eye and tell you how they should be given a place based on their passing some guy and then not grasp they lost 15 spots and a lap in the pits. I have no problem getting that Carl Edwards is a bright guy, and I like Carl, but if there was a mistake on NASCAR's part Saturday, he better have more proof than "I wasn't speeding". I have heard that one before too in my Timing and Scoring days and of course it was bunk as we had a picture of the guy holding the radar gun with the display pointing right at the car in question. Proof of NASCAR's error if there is one is there to be found, the teams have access to all the data from the timing loops...but no one obviously wants to go to the trouble of looking.

Mindless accusations work better to cover up the driver's brain cramps...

[Sparky1329]

I totally understand the timing system that NASCAR employs. Law enforcement agencies use it on a regular basis. That said, I don't buy it that all those drivers got antsy or tried to push the envelope.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sparky, NASCAR uses timing loops spread equidistant all down pit lane at fixed intervals and figures out what time would be legal and what time is not. The transponders on the car trigger the times of the car's passing to the loops. The cops use a radar gun, which is far more open to error.

I have no idea where Carl figures they made a mistake other than the "I know I wasn't speeding" defense. Try THAT in a court of law when the cop only has the radar gun. Timing loops measure time out to a thousandth of a second.

[NickFalzone]

Mark, what Carl alleged, and it may or may not be true, is that the timing loops were set up wrong and gave an incorrect speed. I don't know how these loops work, but the impression Carl gave was that one was too close to the other, or something along those lines. It could have been set up only a couple inches wrong but all the speeds would then be higher than they actually were.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Carl is full of crap. First off the loops were put in and measured off years ago when NASCAR first went to Kentucky. The loops are tested all throughout the race weekend. Secondly, the loops are power sources. What happens is when the transponder passes over the loop, they turn on the transponder and ask its' identity. The transponder gives off the car's identity, and at that point, the computer for pit lane in this case registars that car at that location at that precise point in time. When the car passes the next loop, you have 2 times and the computer is programmed to know the distance and can calculate the speed.

The only possible faults with the system are if the computer's loops were faulty and if the speed was not entered into the computer program. Even with that, then EVERYONE would likely be showing up fast. The loops would be found faulty only if they lost power or lost the ability to pickup the transponder.

This system is blind justice, since the parameters are set for each track and you can bet the timing and scoring staff NASCAR uses would test the system during practice.

It is open to error, but it would have to be pure blind incompetetance and THAT isn't really possible.

I used this stuff for the last few years as a Chief Timer for regional racing up here, but the principles are the same, and I have watched Champ Car's system and talked to people who have worked with NASCAR at the Glen and we all use variations of the same system. The only real difference is NASCAR has loops all over the track and pit lane, and we had the one in pitlane and the start finish giving just lap times. The principles however don't change. Time for a set distance determines speed, and if the computer says you did it too fast, you did it too fast. The transponders are checked all the way through the weekend. There are no real way for errors to occur if you have anyone with a pulse operating the equipment.

Carl is mad because he screwed up.....

[Wade91]

its not just Carl that got busted but also many others the just doesn't seem likely to happen unless the equitment is messed up, but i dont think anybody was WAY over the limit, so some cars might have slowed down more just to be sure which probably is what EVERY car from being busted

[Jonesi]

There's one human element in the process that's probably the culprit. Doesn't Nascar split up the starting grid into two halves, each with a pacecar? And takes their half of the cars through the pitlane at the proper pit speed. If so probably one group went through at say 33mph instead of 30mph. Anyone got a list of the penalized cars? It could be compared their starting grid position and if most of the too fast cars were in one group, there's the proof.

[Wade91]

heres the penalty report for the race http://jayski.com/nationwide/2009/next/14kentucky.htm#penalty

[Jonesi]

heres the penalty report for the race http://jayski.com/nationwide/2009/next/14kentucky.htm#penalty

It breaks down to 27 Speed-in-the-pitlane penalties by 20 different cars. Of that 20, 13 cars that received 19 penalties were from the front half of the grid (assuming it was split 1-22, 23-43 and the cars that have to drop to the back do it after they get the pace car drive through.) That leaves 7 cars getting 8 penalties from the back half of the grid.
That works out to about 2/3 front, 1/3 back, which tends to support my theory, but not enough to prove it. (I sure don't want to go through the dozen races so far this years to get a statistical average ;-)

[call_me_andrew]

I totally understand the timing system that NASCAR employs. Law enforcement agencies use it on a regular basis. That said, I don't buy it that all those drivers got antsy or tried to push the envelope.


Sparky, NASCAR uses timing loops spread equidistant all down pit lane at fixed intervals and figures out what time would be legal and what time is not. The transponders on the car trigger the times of the car's passing to the loops. The cops use a radar gun, which is far more open to error.

Actually Mark, Sparky and I live in Pennsylvania where only state police can use radar and laser. Local police have to use the VASCAR system. VASCAR is pretty much the same as NASCAR's old system and cops have to trigger the clock manually. And it's not that hard to beat since the timing lines have to be painted for everyone to see.

[Wade91]

It breaks down to 27 Speed-in-the-pitlane penalties by 20 different cars. Of that 20, 13 cars that received 19 penalties were from the front half of the grid (assuming it was split 1-22, 23-43 and the cars that have to drop to the back do it after they get the pace car drive through.) That leaves 7 cars getting 8 penalties from the back half of the grid.
That works out to about 2/3 front, 1/3 back, which tends to support my theory, but not enough to prove it. (I sure don't want to go through the dozen races so far this years to get a statistical average ;-)
yeah, i guess the front pace car was probably a little to fast and really messed everything up :s

[Mark in Oshawa]

There's one human element in the process that's probably the culprit. Doesn't Nascar split up the starting grid into two halves, each with a pacecar? And takes their half of the cars through the pitlane at the proper pit speed. If so probably one group went through at say 33mph instead of 30mph. Anyone got a list of the penalized cars? It could be compared their starting grid position and if most of the too fast cars were in one group, there's the proof.

The Engineers figure out what gear ratio gives you what speed and the drivers are told by their teams. The pace car can be on or off, it makes little difference if the teams are giving these guys the speeds. NASCAR's attitude is you and your team are responsible for your actions.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually Mark, Sparky and I live in Pennsylvania where only state police can use radar and laser. Local police have to use the VASCAR system. VASCAR is pretty much the same as NASCAR's old system and cops have to trigger the clock manually. And it's not that hard to beat since the timing lines have to be painted for everyone to see.



They can use VASCAR as cops, but NASCAR already has the transponder loops in the ashphalt. No radar, VASCAR or guys with stop watches. This system is timed the same way NASCAR times the laps and sets the positions based on the last timing loop on the track when yellow's come out.

[Mark in Oshawa]

yeah, i guess the front pace car was probably a little to fast and really messed everything up :s

Wade...did you read how they calculate this stuff? You think the teams don't KNOW how far a part those loops are, what time would be too fast and what gear ratio/rpm they would need to be legal? What the pace car does or doesn't do doesn't change things. This isn't bubba and skeeter at the local oval guessing, they have guys making 6 figure incomes figuring out all the angles to get as close as possible to the rules. Those teams don't need NASCAR's pace car to tell them how fast is too fast.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It breaks down to 27 Speed-in-the-pitlane penalties by 20 different cars. Of that 20, 13 cars that received 19 penalties were from the front half of the grid (assuming it was split 1-22, 23-43 and the cars that have to drop to the back do it after they get the pace car drive through.) That leaves 7 cars getting 8 penalties from the back half of the grid.
That works out to about 2/3 front, 1/3 back, which tends to support my theory, but not enough to prove it. (I sure don't want to go through the dozen races so far this years to get a statistical average ;-)

Interesting...but as I said above, the teams know what RPM they need in their cars to get THAT speed.

Guys, what a lot of drivers will do is speed up once they are past the last loop before their pits to gain that extra fraction of a second. The problem is, if they guess wrong on where they are to that loop, they could bust out as a speeder. The amount of thought that goes into minimizing time on pit road is amazing, and the teams are very aware of where the loops are, and they will speed within a timing zone if they know they have to stop in it 3 pits up. It is all calculated....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, what Carl alleged, and it may or may not be true, is that the timing loops were set up wrong and gave an incorrect speed. I don't know how these loops work, but the impression Carl gave was that one was too close to the other, or something along those lines. It could have been set up only a couple inches wrong but all the speeds would then be higher than they actually were.

The loops are cut into the pavement. They haven't moved from year to year. If they had to put new loops in, they would use the old cuts. Carl is a good guy, but he just doesn't want to admit he screwed up. No one has shown any evidence for NASCAR making a mistake, just a bunch of drivers saying "I wasn't speeding". Try that when you speed in court and see where it gets you.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If there was a problem with the loops...EVERYONE in the field would likely be caught. THAT didn't happen boys....explain why some guys managed to stay legal.....

[NickFalzone]

Carl's comment was actually about NASCAR having the cones in the wrong place. I'd say it was just some over aggressive drivers, but then I see that more than half the field got "caught" and I don't think half the field is that dumb or that bad at pit speeds, so IMO NASCAR did something different from usual or got the cone placement wrong.

[Jonesi]

On tonight's Nationwide race broadcast on ESPN2 they dicussed this issue. They said that previous to last weeks race the most speed in pits penalties in any of the races were 5, so the jump to 29, something had to cause it. Nascar says nothing was wrong. The broadcast crew mentioned that the timing loops are not at a standardized distance (so a programming error is possible), and the pylon marking the last line may have been set too soon, so the drivers might have accelerated early. They also discussed the possibility that the pace car was driven too fast, but if it was they would be no way to prove it. (You would think Nascar would have a transponder on it and records of it's speed ;-)

[Wade91]

i thought the pre race show on ESPN2 was pretty interesting, Tim Brewer explained how a driver will calibrate his tacomider, but of cource if the pace car is going a litte fast at that time, its going to though everything off

[Sparky1329]

After watching the NNS pre-race show last night I'm leaning toward blaming the pace car driver. That's the only variable other than the drivers. It's obvious that something was amiss. It's over. It's done. The race is in the books. It is what it is.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If the cone is in the wrong place and the driver ISNT aware of the loop being where it is, THAT would explain it. The loops however are set and are the same year to year. NASCAR knows how far apart they are.

However, if some dummy put the cone up and the drivers thought they could speed up and they didn't...ok, THAT makes sense.

Still have to say, NASCAR GIVES these guys 5mph leeway and they still manage to speed. The limit could be 30mph and they can go just under 35 and not be busted. You have to really work at being caught too fast.

[PA Rick]

After watching the NNS pre-race show last night I'm leaning toward blaming the pace car driver. That's the only variable other than the drivers. It's obvious that something was amiss. It's over. It's done. The race is in the books. It is what it is.

Who drives the pace car? What if he tells number "whatever" they will be a few mph fast. Now number "whatever" keeps it a few mph below the calibrated speed and doesn't get caught. And number "doghouse" keeps all the lights green on his tach but is actually .003sec too fast and received as drivethru penalty.
They need to publish all of the pit speeds in all of the traps for all of the drivers.

[markabilly]

If the cone is in the wrong place and the driver ISNT aware of the loop being where it is, THAT would explain it. The loops however are set and are the same year to year. NASCAR knows how far apart they are.

However, if some dummy put the cone up and the drivers thought they could speed up and they didn't...ok, THAT makes sense.

Still have to say, NASCAR GIVES these guys 5mph leeway and they still manage to speed. The limit could be 30mph and they can go just under 35 and not be busted. You have to really work at being caught too fast.
those who drive on the edge, drive on the edge.

much like everyone knows the cops on the interstate give everyone at least 6 to 7 mph and more like 10 mph before they stop you, so everyone drives 5 mph over.....

they say 55 in the pits, but they don't hit unless you are over 60, then what is a hard nose competitor going to do????

well duuuh :rolleyes:

problem is gear ratios, engine rpm and tire size, and all have to be absolutely correct, if you are going to run it at 59.99999mph. Even at 55 mph, some slight miscalculation by a driver or engineer.....and bingo.

Run a tire slightly larger, and not withstanding the 5 mph window, bingo.

Add in the fact that the cone placement might vary slightly, the driver is distracted and so forth, and BINGO again.....
or just does not hit the brakes hard enough, or just hits the throtttle a millisecond too soon......and BINGO.

and as tire temp can vary tire size, as can a worn tire vs. a new tire, and so forth.....or just the variation in how the tires are mounted, their size as the come from the factory....

This ability to do it and time it just right was what made great dragster racers.

ought to set it at 55 mph, anyone at 1 mph plus too fast gets a penalty, as in automatic, no appeal, no exception.

and the loop placement is why i could swear, it looks to me like drivers are going slower at the end and at the beginning of the pit lane, but in the middle or in certain places, it appears as though they may be going much faster at some parts of the pitlane and then slowing down to avoid the traps, but that could just be camera angle and the distance distorting the view on tv.....or me being blind in one eye and can not see out the other

[Jonesi]

Who drives the pace car? What if he tells number "whatever" they will be a few mph fast. Now number "whatever" keeps it a few mph below the calibrated speed and doesn't get caught. And number "doghouse" keeps all the lights green on his tach but is actually .003sec too fast and received as drivethru penalty.
They need to publish all of the pit speeds in all of the traps for all of the drivers.


Brett Bodine.

On tonight's NascarNow they mentioned that some drivers were asking why the pace car doesn't have a transponder too.

[PA Rick]

those who drive on the edge, drive on the edge.

much like everyone knows the cops on the interstate give everyone at least 6 to 7 mph and more like 10 mph before they stop you, so everyone drives 5 mph over.....

they say 55 in the pits, but they don't hit unless you are over 60, then what is a hard nose competitor going to do????


If I get to my job .5 sec after my buddy Joe, we both get paid the same. If Yimmie Yonson gets to the finish line .5 sec after Bernie Bush, he is a loser. And my boss isn't running the speed trap.
I can tell how close my speedometer is by those mini radar displays. NASCAR drivers have no feedback until they get caught. Give them all the data. Publish the pit speeds for all cars in all sections.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If I get to my job .5 sec after my buddy Joe, we both get paid the same. If Yimmie Yonson gets to the finish line .5 sec after Bernie Bush, he is a loser. And my boss isn't running the speed trap.
I can tell how close my speedometer is by those mini radar displays. NASCAR drivers have no feedback until they get caught. Give them all the data. Publish the pit speeds for all cars in all sections.

THEY DO. You can go to NASCAR and get the printout after you bust out. Or not.

It isn't NASCAR's job to keep these guys below the 60mph allowed. The Limit is 55, they are giving them a fudge factor of 5 mph, and some cant stay below it. Quit blaming NASCAR. The car has a brake, and a gas pedal. Use the former and not so much of the latter on pit road, and you don't bust out. You never see Jeff Burton or Mark Martin bust out now do you? Maybe because they are smart enough that staying below that speed limit is a skill that is part of being a top driver, and they know that tach is a rough guide, nothing more. JPM thought he was ok with three green. The problem is, if the tach lights are set for the wrong ratio or there is a sneeze on his part, he is going to be over. He can say what he wants, he busted out. The data from the loops is available to all the teams. He blew it. Case closed

You guys keep trying to find a grassy knoll on a level field.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

those who drive on the edge, drive on the edge.

much like everyone knows the cops on the interstate give everyone at least 6 to 7 mph and more like 10 mph before they stop you, so everyone drives 5 mph over.....

they say 55 in the pits, but they don't hit unless you are over 60, then what is a hard nose competitor going to do????

well duuuh :rolleyes:

problem is gear ratios, engine rpm and tire size, and all have to be absolutely correct, if you are going to run it at 59.99999mph. Even at 55 mph, some slight miscalculation by a driver or engineer.....and bingo.

Run a tire slightly larger, and not withstanding the 5 mph window, bingo.

Add in the fact that the cone placement might vary slightly, the driver is distracted and so forth, and BINGO again.....
or just does not hit the brakes hard enough, or just hits the throtttle a millisecond too soon......and BINGO.

and as tire temp can vary tire size, as can a worn tire vs. a new tire, and so forth.....or just the variation in how the tires are mounted, their size as the come from the factory....

This ability to do it and time it just right was what made great dragster racers.

ought to set it at 55 mph, anyone at 1 mph plus too fast gets a penalty, as in automatic, no appeal, no exception.

and the loop placement is why i could swear, it looks to me like drivers are going slower at the end and at the beginning of the pit lane, but in the middle or in certain places, it appears as though they may be going much faster at some parts of the pitlane and then slowing down to avoid the traps, but that could just be camera angle and the distance distorting the view on tv.....or me being blind in one eye and can not see out the other

First off, what your eyes tell you from watching means diddly. It is time between loops and they are a known distance. Figure out how fast 55mph and 60mph is between the loops and tell the computer to flag those times faster than those two numbers. Penalize the guys over 60. That is how it is done. No judgement call, pure time. The drivers asked for this when NASCAR was stupidly using guys in the pits with stop watches. Anyone who busts out has the right to see the printout of the times in the intervals. Felix Sabates ran right over to the NASCAR official running the computer for pit road, got the evidence, and it is the reason everyone shut up. it is there in black and white. WE people on our couch don't get to see it, but it isn't our RIGHT to see it. Still doesn't mean NASCAR is hiding a damned thing.

So the drivers got what they want and now they don't like this. How about we all just give them a little box and let them lean on it to lock the car at 55? Oh ya...right...that requires ZERO skills and puts an electronic engine control in the car that could be in theory used as a form of traction control if NASCAR isn't policing it. If they have to police THAT and give the guys the speed limit gear in pit road, what will happen if one of these guys still busts out? Then it isn't the driver's fault?

Quit making this racing socialism boys.....the driver has to keep the car BELOW the speed, or pay the price. Simple.... I like it.

[markabilly]

THEY DO. You can go to NASCAR and get the printout after you bust out. Or not.

It isn't NASCAR's job to keep these guys below the 60mph allowed. The Limit is 55, they are giving them a fudge factor of 5 mph, and some cant stay below it. Quit blaming NASCAR. The car has a brake, and a gas pedal. Use the former and not so much of the latter on pit road, and you don't bust out. You never see Jeff Burton or Mark Martin bust out now do you? Maybe because they are smart enough that staying below that speed limit is a skill that is part of being a top driver, and they know that tach is a rough guide, nothing more. JPM thought he was ok with three green. The problem is, if the tach lights are set for the wrong ratio or there is a sneeze on his part, he is going to be over. He can say what he wants, he busted out. The data from the loops is available to all the teams. He blew it. Case closed

You guys keep trying to find a grassy knoll on a level field.....

that was not his point nor mine either. Point was that with the fudge factor being 5 mph, then the limit in the eye of the driver and team is 60, not 55.
And if you are not at 60, but running 55, you get left behind.



First off, what your eyes tell you from watching means diddly. It is time between loops and they are a known distance. Figure out how fast 55mph and 60mph is between the loops and tell the computer to flag those times faster than those two numbers. Penalize the guys over 60. That is how it is done. No judgement call, pure time. The drivers asked for this when NASCAR was stupidly using guys in the pits with stop watches. Anyone who busts out has the right to see the printout of the times in the intervals. Felix Sabates ran right over to the NASCAR official running the computer for pit road, got the evidence, and it is the reason everyone shut up. it is there in black and white. WE people on our couch don't get to see it, but it isn't our RIGHT to see it. Still doesn't mean NASCAR is hiding a damned thing.

So the drivers got what they want and now they don't like this. How about we all just give them a little box and let them lean on it to lock the car at 55? Oh ya...right...that requires ZERO skills and puts an electronic engine control in the car that could be in theory used as a form of traction control if NASCAR isn't policing it. If they have to police THAT and give the guys the speed limit gear in pit road, what will happen if one of these guys still busts out? Then it isn't the driver's fault?

Quit making this racing socialism boys.....the driver has to keep the car BELOW the speed, or pay the price. Simple.... I like it.


Was not. Merely pointing out a ton of variables inculding a batch of tires that could have slightly greater diameter, that results in being over the mark, when you are trying to run it at the very razor edge.

Make it 55, give a one mph which would make it 56 in the mind of the team. Anyone at 56.000000000000001 pays the price, same price, each and every time. No exceptions because of hot tires, new tires, bad tires or whatever.

And I swear, i have seen drivers come in, nice and slow enough, then at some point, speed up and then hit their pits, as though they know where various loops are placed, so they are playing games inside the pit lane--knowing where they can hit 65 or whatever and where they can not, but that could be an illusion.

Or speed as they leave the pits then slow as they approach the exit to pit lane.....
and leave the electro gizmos to f1

and give the teams direct access to the computer showing everyone's speeds in real time. That will tell them if their guy is running too close to the edge or if their calculations are wrong or whatever. Then you have no grassy knoll (which actually exists in Dallas)

[Mark in Oshawa]

that was not his point nor mine either. Point was that with the fudge factor being 5 mph, then the limit in the eye of the driver and team is 60, not 55.
And if you are not at 60, but running 55, you get left behind.


Was not. Merely pointing out a ton of variables inculding a batch of tires that could have slightly greater diameter, that results in being over the mark, when you are trying to run it at the very razor edge.

Make it 55, give a one mph which would make it 56 in the mind of the team. Anyone at 56.000000000000001 pays the price, same price, each and every time. No exceptions because of hot tires, new tires, bad tires or whatever.

And I swear, i have seen drivers come in, nice and slow enough, then at some point, speed up and then hit their pits, as though they know where various loops are placed, so they are playing games inside the pit lane--knowing where they can hit 65 or whatever and where they can not, but that could be an illusion.

Or speed as they leave the pits then slow as they approach the exit to pit lane.....
and leave the electro gizmos to f1

and give the teams direct access to the computer showing everyone's speeds in real time. That will tell them if their guy is running too close to the edge or if their calculations are wrong or whatever. Then you have no grassy knoll (which actually exists in Dallas)

I wasn't really on you specifically. As for seeing them speed up where they know the loops are, yes, I have noticed that but they do that as they come into their box. However, you can only traverse 3 other teams boxes on the way in, so speeding to much within a loop before hitting the pit box or coming out means having to turn in hard at speed.

It still comes back to the teams figuring out what speed they can get away with, where it rests on the tach and the driver implementing the plan. What ticks me off is this insistance NASCAR is either at fault for not giving them that monitor in real time or helping them calculate it. If NASCAR takes on any part of that responsiblity for helping the teams, they just open up a can of worms. NASCAR sets the rule, has a FAIR way of showing infractions or complience and they leave the rest to the boffins who have the big calculators that every team has, and the driver. Period. If a guy busts out, he went too fast. NASCAR doesn't care how or why, or that he had 3 green lights on his dash. IT isn't their concern.

[muggle not]

Actually it was a stupid move by montoya. He had a comfortable lead and should not have pushed the limit on pit road. All he had to do was stay in the lead and the race was his.

[Copse]

Actually it was a stupid move by montoya. He had a comfortable lead and should not have pushed the limit on pit road. All he had to do was stay in the lead and the race was his.

This thread isn't about JPM, it is about a huge number of pit speed infractions in a completely different race, and about figuring out why 20+ drivers suddenly drove to fast. "should not have pushed the limit" doesn't cut it in this case.

[PA Rick]

The data from the loops is available to all the teams. You guys keep trying to find a grassy knoll on a level field.....

Is the data from the loops available to all the teams? Or is your data avalable after they penalize you?
And I'm not sure there are many level fields in NASCAR.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Is the data from the loops available to all the teams? Or is your data avalable after they penalize you?
And I'm not sure there are many level fields in NASCAR.

There are lots of level fields. IT is LEVEL. If you want to stand by the scoring stand where the printer prints off the section times, you could. Felix Sabates ran over to it when JPM was nailed and you will notice the team shut right up about it.

The loops are hooked to a scoring computer and a printout of the times and car numbers is printed out for every session. The only reason I suspect NASCAR doesn't put this monitor on the pit road feed or media feed like the regular scoring monitor I suspect is so the teams don't have the luxury of using this feed in real time to tell the driver to speed up or slow down. They also don't want 43 guys with headsets on gatherred around their monitor all race. It is the TEAM's responsibility to make sure the driver knows what RPM in what gear will keep him in the speed limit. NASCAR is giving them a 5pm bubble in theory. The reality is teams want to push the limit and with things a compeitive as they are, with these new tachs they use they are so close to the edge more guys are breaking out.

The transponders in cars this speed are VERY accurate, and since every car has the transponder in the exact same spot, there is no varience in how the transponder is read as it crosses the loop.

There is no conspiracy here. It is a case of a really good race driver pushing the envelope and going past it.

AS for the idea drivers should be able to press a button and stay legal, no....

NASCAR is all about it always being in the hands of the driver. No on board telemetry telling an engineer in the pit a tire is going down. No telemetry telling the driver that vibration is an engine going south. No button to push or telemetry telling the driver is he entering pit lane too hot. He has to understand his car, feel his car and control his car. It is the reason people love NASCAR. It ISNT about the technology; it is all about the DRIVER. If you want to watch technology, go watch F1. Here....you are with your team to figure out how fast is too fast on pit road and stick to it.

I would love to see an F1 driver lose his pit lane speed limiter and speed in pit lane in a GP to see what happens.....Right now, it takes that element of risk out of a pit stop to have them have total control over that speed. No skill there.....