The FIA Entry List [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

ArrowsFA1

12th June 2009, 11:50

SCUDERIA FERRARI MARLBORO FERRARI
SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO STR TBA
RED BULL RACING RED BULL RACING TBA
AT&T WILLIAMS WILLIAMS TOYOTA
FORCE INDIA F1 TEAM FORCE INDIA MERCEDES
CAMPOS GRAND PRIX CAMPOS COSWORTH
MANOR GRAND PRIX MANOR COSWORTH
TEAM US F1 TEAM US F1 COSWORTH
VODAFONE McLAREN MERCEDES* McLAREN MERCEDES
BMW SAUBER F1 TEAM* BMW SAUBER
RENAULT F1 TEAM* RENAULT
PANASONIC TOYOTA RACING* TOYOTA
BRAWN GP FORMULA ONE TEAM* BRAWN TBA
*These five teams have submitted conditional entries.The FIA has invited them to lift those conditions following further discussions to be concluded not later than close of business on Friday 19 June.
The maximum number of cars permitted to enter the 2010 Championship has been increased to 26, two being entered by each competitor. Pending completion of the discussions referred to above, further due diligence is currently taking place on other potential entries.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21556.html

V12

12th June 2009, 12:03

Well that's a bit of a shock - Manor Grand Prix where did they come from? Although fair play to them for evidently just getting on with it rather than throwing out press releases and/or announcing how they were going to resurrect a famous name.

No Prodrive or Lola, well not yet anyway. USF1 I think were a gimme given the fact that they announced ages ago and must be at quite an advanced stage of preparation compared to the others.

Assuming that the "conditionals" make their way in unscathed I'd like to see common sense prevail and maybe an extra couple of spots opened up if there are qualified contenders available to fill them.

No to franchising, yes to open competition.

Giuseppe F1

12th June 2009, 12:11

Do Manor have the capability to build their own car?

Maybe Lola could build their car for them, in effect combining 2 prospective teams efforts.

Why arent Prodrive/Aston on the list???????????????????????????

Hondo

12th June 2009, 12:12

What? Another deadline? What a surprise! I notice Ferrari isn't shown as a conditional entry. Their reaction should be amusing.

Giuseppe F1

12th June 2009, 12:14

Does anyone else think that Pantano will end up driving one of the Campos cars?

V12

12th June 2009, 12:20

A Manor/Lola link-up may make sense, since Lola don't have a race team as yet, and as far as I know Manor don't have chassis building facilities yet. I honestly thought Prodrive would have gotten in though.

raybak

12th June 2009, 12:22

Yeah I though Prodrive would get through. Maybe Dave Richards has upset someone at the FIA.

Ray

CNR

12th June 2009, 12:26

http://www.setanta.com/uk/Articles/other-sports/2009/06/12/F1-Entry-list-for-2010/gnid-56714/

Q: CONSTRUCTOR

Scuderia Toro Rosso TBA
Red Bull Racing TBA
Brawn TBA

ArrowsFA1

12th June 2009, 12:39

The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) has written to the FIA's Senate and World Motor Sport Council urging it to intervene in the row over entries to next year's championship, AUTOSPORT can reveal, as it warns the teams could be forced to walk away.
In an immediate response to the announcement by the FIA that FOTA's members have until June 19 to drop the conditions attached to their entries, the eight members of the teams' organisation pleaded for help in finding a 'swift solution' to the matter.
This comes despite Ferrari, Red Bull Racing and Scuderia Toro Rosso all having been handed full entries to next year's championship - in lieu of commercial agreements made with the FIA and FOM committing them to the sport.
The letter makes it clear these entries were made ‘against the will' of the teams involved.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76048

woody2goody

12th June 2009, 12:47

Yeah I though Prodrive would get through. Maybe Dave Richards has upset someone at the FIA.

Ray

I'm f***ing amazed that Prodrive haven't got in AGAIN.

How come we haven't heard about Manor before now? Were they even on the list of submitted entries?

Hondo

12th June 2009, 12:50

I doubt this is the official final list. This looks more like a Max list. Don't forget we now have another deadline next Friday.

Knock-on

12th June 2009, 12:54

FIA rules are there for Max to change at will.

He will carry on playing games till he gets what he wants. This is merely his shopping list.

As for prodrive. Max has a bee in his bonnet about Dave so will fcuk him up from now to eternity at every opportunity.

N. Jones

12th June 2009, 13:03

So, no one has an idea who Manor Grand Prix are?

Nice to see USF1 in there but it looks like we will have to wait and see what happens with these conditional entries.
Ah-ha! from here: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/6/9487.html

"The surprise name on the FIA’s list is Manor Grand Prix. British team Manor was founded in 1990 by former single-seater champion John Booth and over the years has fielded drivers such as Kimi Raikkonen and Lewis Hamilton in the likes of Formula Renault and Formula Three."

AndyL

12th June 2009, 13:07

Manor were running Henry Surtees in British Formula Renault last year. But it's quite a leap from running a scalextric car (http://www.squit.co.uk/photo/btcc08/renault/24a.html) to competing in Formula 1.

12th June 2009, 13:16

I think the FIA are still pissed about Prodrive dropping out from last time.

Knock-on

12th June 2009, 13:25

Once upon a time

SCUDERIA FERRARI MARLBORO FERRARI
SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO STR TBA
RED BULL RACING RED BULL RACING TBA
AT&T WILLIAMS WILLIAMS TOYOTA
FORCE INDIA F1 TEAM FORCE INDIA MERCEDES
CAMPOS GRAND PRIX CAMPOS COSWORTH
MANOR GRAND PRIX MANOR COSWORTH
TEAM US F1 TEAM US F1 COSWORTH
VODAFONE McLAREN MERCEDES* McLAREN MERCEDES
BMW SAUBER F1 TEAM* BMW SAUBER
RENAULT F1 TEAM* RENAULT
PANASONIC TOYOTA RACING* TOYOTA
BRAWN GP FORMULA ONE TEAM* BRAWN TBA
*These five teams have submitted conditional entries.The FIA has invited them to lift those conditions following further discussions to be concluded not later than close of business on Friday 19 June.
The maximum number of cars permitted to enter the 2010 Championship has been increased to 26, two being entered by each competitor. Pending completion of the discussions referred to above, further due diligence is currently taking place on other potential entries.

And they all lived happily ever after

(Just thought I would make it more accurate)

ArrowsFA1

12th June 2009, 13:35

Given that Ferrari, Red Bull and Toro Rosso have made clear again today that their entries are conditional the official confirmed list should read:

AT&T WILLIAMS WILLIAMS TOYOTA
FORCE INDIA F1 TEAM FORCE INDIA MERCEDES
CAMPOS GRAND PRIX CAMPOS COSWORTH
MANOR GRAND PRIX MANOR COSWORTH
TEAM US F1 TEAM US F1 COSWORTH

Cooper_S

12th June 2009, 13:46

so hope still for Prodrive F1

12th June 2009, 13:58

Manor are tied in with Wirth Research.

12th June 2009, 13:59

Oh, and Ferrari are saying that they aren't 'entered'.

christophulus

12th June 2009, 14:08

I hope this is Max trying to force the teams to come around and isn't final. Who are Manor? Are Campos stronger than Prodrive/Lola? I kind of see Ferrari's point about some entries cheapening F1's image - you'd at least have thought they'd stick some bigger names in.

N. Jones

12th June 2009, 14:09

I think the FIA choose teams they felt would be the strongest in terms of longevity and eventually successful. If politics played a part in it I would assume so but I have no definitive proof...

I am evil Homer

12th June 2009, 14:14

Which still makes Prodrive's omission all the more puzzling...

christophulus

12th June 2009, 14:16

I think it is a bargaining tool. Prodrive and Lola were seen to be the strongest potential entries, along with Litespeed/Lotus and a couple of others. If some manufacturers pull out (and Max is probably hopeful that they do) then they have replacement teams with big names and big budgets to fill the void.

How's that for a theory? Keep the sponsors happy?

Sleeper

12th June 2009, 14:16

Manor are tied in with Wirth Research.
Got a link for that?

If this is John Booths Manor Motorsport F3 team stepping up with Wirth Research, it could be quite the entry.

Campos ahead of Lola and Prodrive was quite surprising.

Knock-on

12th June 2009, 14:17

christophulus

12th June 2009, 14:18

Got a link for that?

If this is John Booths Manor Motorsport F3 team stepping up with Wirth Research, it could be quite the entry.

Campos ahead of Lola and Prodrive was quite surprising.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76057

Robinho

12th June 2009, 14:23

all the potentials lloked pretty viable in their own right, would have been nice to have seen some histroic names (Lola, Lotus, March, Brabham) involved, but equally i wouldn't want to see some no-hopers dragging a name that has no association to the original team through the mud.

i think to split Campos, Superfund, USF1, Prodrive, Lola would have been pretty tricky, although the final 3 is something of a surprise to me, especially the Manor/Nick Wirth which no-one seemingly new about.

Williams, FI, Torro Rosso's stock should rise a little as they shouldn't be fighting it out at the back, but in a larger midfield (not withstanding Williams current decent form)

ArrowsFA1

12th June 2009, 14:30

...especially the Manor/Nick Wirth which no-one seemingly new about.
That was a surprising one although Manor have a strong record in the lower formulae, and Nick Wirth is well known to Max as they co-founded Simtek Research in the late 1980's.

K-Pu

12th June 2009, 14:49

Then what does this list mean?

If you take out the conditional entries, the forced entries and the manufacturer-engined entries...

We have only 6 cars, and all with Cosworths. And another deadline which, of course, will not be the last. Imagine next week there´s no agreement on the conditional entries. Will they be simply rejected? Max has not done it now, and it could have happened since his "dictatorial tendencies" tend to get things that way.

And what happens with the forced entries? What if they refuse? Will they be fined? Will Max chase them with a whip in hand? And if everything goes wrong... What is Max going to do with a 6-car field? Adding the other submitted entries? Some of them seem not-really-serious, and a field which is totally different from the one we have is not the best option for the new F1.

So, what we have is more or less the same as before, adding a bit of confusion since some key players (Prodrive and Lola) are not in the list, but who knows... maybe next friday the list includes them along with some unexpected entrant or whatever.

It all depends, it´s all a power struggle.

Dave B

12th June 2009, 14:51

Which still makes Prodrive's omission all the more puzzling...
Prodrive don't stand a chance all the time Mad Max is in office. There's no love lost between him and Dave Richards.

Still, it's all decided on merit, isn't it? :dozey:

ArrowsFA1

12th June 2009, 15:04

Then what does this list mean?
According to the FIA it means:

"Formula 1 is a fantastic prospect and with the financial reforms to lower the barrier to entry to realistic levels it is good to see such a strong market for new teams.

This exercise has demonstrated that the only reason there have been vacancies on the F1 grid for many years was the excessive cost of participation.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76068

Knock-on

12th June 2009, 15:19

What is Max going to do with a 6-car field?

I think Max would run a 6 car field. He has before.

Sarah

12th June 2009, 15:46

BBC Look East did a piece on Cosworth this lunchtime on the news but I didn't get to see it.

christophulus

12th June 2009, 16:02

James Allen notes on his blog (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/) that Brawn, Red Bull and Toro Rosso don't have an engine supply for next year yet. I thought that was a condition of entry?

Convenient loophole for Red Bull I suppose.

MJW

12th June 2009, 16:26

With Manor and the other teams selected over Prodrive I am hoping that the FOTA teams will stick two fingers up to Max and go with Dorna to run their own series. To me this is Max excercising his dictatorial role to the ultimate.

555-04Q2

12th June 2009, 16:36

I think Max would run a 6 car field. He has before.

For once, not his fault ;)

555-04Q2

12th June 2009, 16:37

The list is useless for now...

ioan

12th June 2009, 17:16

Manor are tied in with Wirth Research.

And Nick Wirth use to be Mosley's business partner before Maxie was elected FIA president, this says a lot why Manor was accepted in the list of teams for 2010.

UltimateDanGTR

12th June 2009, 17:21

Lola and Prodrive should've been dead certs along with USF1. Manor and Campos-what a load of rubbish. This is pathetic, again F1 is in a pathetic mess. Right then, Brawn and Mclaren, submit your unconditional entries-You can do it. Ferrari-either shut up and enter fully or P*ss off. BMW, Renault, Toyota, Red Bull-same for you-otherwise P*ss off. Max-at the same time, you can see sense and find other ways of cutting costs (standardized parts is best bet-but no standardized naziwhores please Mr Mosley) Lola, Prodrive, Litespeed/'Lotus', Epsilon Euskadi, 'Brabham' and N.Technology-Be on stand by-If some of the current teams P*ss off then you all have a chance to be in it-and by the way-your in the queue for entries in that order.

Thats all for next Friday.

Renault, BMW, Red Bull, Toyota, Ferrari-If you do P*ss off-Go and create your own GP1 series or whatever-who knows that might be entertaining. Try and rope in some of your manurfacturer mates-Audi for example. they can have a B team called Volkswagen. If Brawn and Macca follow-best of luck to them-although they really should stay in F1.

Oh, Superfund and 'March'-If Brawn and Macca go to 'GP1' or whatever its gonna be called with all the advertising-our-cars teams (or drink with red bull) then you get the green light to F1 aswell.

and if we have 2 championships then Hay ho-just make sure between you you manage to go to all continents of the world-and try and make it good.

right then-Thats my plan.

Now teams-bloody follow it!

UltimateDanGTR

12th June 2009, 17:24

BBC Look East did a piece on Cosworth this lunchtime on the news but I didn't get to see it.

Ooh I hope thats on again this evening Ill try and see-thanks for that fellow 'Eastener'

(even if you are from the wrong side of anglia! :p )

truefan72

12th June 2009, 17:27

I hope to Godthat FOTA leave F1 and form a breakaway series, mad max can have manor GP, Campos, Force India,and all the other B-ranked teams willing to go with his useless version of F1 with a single engine supplier nonsense.

I for one will not shed a tear at the death of F1 if Fota can arrange a competing series with a suitable name. Same teams, same drivers, better rules and better cars. They will take the majority of sponsorship and advertising away from bernie and max and there is nothing those two would be able to do about it. I would be even willing to forge proper 1 style racinfg for 1-2 years if it means the end of Mad max and bernie. After a year or two in the racing wastelands, I'm sure the FIA will drop Mad max and come humbly back to the negotiating table.

There are times when teams have to absolutely take a stand and that time is now!

ioan

12th June 2009, 17:29

Lola and Prodrive should've been dead certs along with USF1. Manor and Campos-what a load of rubbish. This is pathetic, again F1 is in a pathetic mess. Right then, Brawn and Mclaren, submit your unconditional entries-You can do it. Ferrari-either shut up and enter fully or P*ss off. BMW, Renault, Toyota, Red Bull-same for you-otherwise P*ss off. Max-at the same time, you can see sense and find other ways of cutting costs (standardized parts is best bet-but no standardized naziwhores please Mr Mosley) Lola, Prodrive, Litespeed/'Lotus', Epsilon Euskadi, 'Brabham' and N.Technology-Be on stand by-If some of the current teams P*ss off then you all have a chance to be in it-and by the way-your in the queue for entries in that order.

Thats all for next Friday.

Renault, BMW, Red Bull, Toyota, Ferrari-If you do P*ss off-Go and create your own GP1 series or whatever-who knows that might be entertaining. Try and rope in some of your manurfacturer mates-Audi for example. they can have a B team called Volkswagen. If Brawn and Macca follow-best of luck to them-although they really should stay in F1.

Piss*ng contest or what?!

I think you didn't understand anything from all this FOTA vs FIA war.

UltimateDanGTR

12th June 2009, 17:47

Piss*ng contest or what?!

I think you didn't understand anything from all this FOTA vs FIA war.

and exactly what part did I supposedly fail to understand?

jens

12th June 2009, 18:28

Nah, both sides keep throwing the ball back to the other one to avoid making the last step. FIA's list is nothing conclusive, it just carries the FIA vs FOTA war forward, which now will also take place in courts (well, Ferrari & Red Bull will try to prove that they shouldn't be unconditional ones).

Another Max' attempt to divide FOTA by putting some of the members among unconditional entries and others not... Secondly, Mosley uses his "waiting" tactics by announcing another deadline. The strategy is based on the notion that time is on his side - the more time passes, the more difficult it will be to set up a rival series for a new season. Hopefully FOTA has already been working at it flat-out.

As for rejecting Prodrive. Well, there may be quite several explanations. :D Firstly, in 2006 Prodrive was chosen as 12th entry for Formula One. Since they didn't make it, they haven't been given another chance for revenge (although the last case was FIA's fault that they banned customer cars, but FIA doesn't care about this fact obviously). Or secondly Richards is too powerful and the last thing Mosley wants is more team principals, who it could be difficult to deal with. :p : Hence the choice of random F3 teams, who don't question Mosley's power. The already mentioned Manor/Wirth link to Mosley from the 1990's is quite interesting, but since when have Mosley's decisions been based on general well-being of F1 and not on his personal interests? :p :

Sonic

12th June 2009, 18:34

Never thought i'd hear myself say this but.....

Jean Todt for FIA president.

We need an end to the Max and Bernie show and all this stupid political nonsense over what is a SPORT. Ok a sport with millions of dollars swirling around but a sport none-the-less.

Mosely has had his time and F1 thanks him for the good things he has done (can't think of any right now ;) ) but we new fresh blood and a new approach.

acorn

12th June 2009, 19:26

Ooh I hope thats on again this evening Ill try and see-thanks for that fellow 'Eastener'

(even if you are from the wrong side of anglia! :p )

online:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8097494.stm

K-Pu

12th June 2009, 19:54

We need an end to the Max and Bernie show and all this stupid political nonsense over what is a SPORT. Ok a sport with millions of dollars swirling around but a sport none-the-less.

But there´s a lot of monay involved, and we (sadly) know money is the most important thing in the world. If F1 were cheaper or there were not that much money involved, maybe we could speak about a sport, but now it´s a business. It´s like football. Do the Real Madrid spend almost 200M € in order to improve the sport? You guessed it, the answer is NO. It´s just a business, and F1 moves soooo much money and it´s controlled by a soooooo deeply dictatorial prankster that we can only hope some of their ideas coincide with anything that could be good for the sport.

The rest of the time, the sport is a mere passenger in the business car...

VkmSpouge

12th June 2009, 20:10

Nice looking entry list. I wonder how Campos, Manor and US will do next season (assuming they make to the grid).

jens

12th June 2009, 20:21

Nice looking entry list. I wonder how Campos, Manor and US will do next season (assuming they make to the grid).

Their chances of getting at least half-decent results will be actually pretty good after FOTA teams have left. :D

UltimateDanGTR

12th June 2009, 20:47

online:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8097494.stm

cheers for that acorn!

JustRace

12th June 2009, 22:01

Triumph

12th June 2009, 22:14

Like a lot of others here I was surprised that Lola and Prodrive weren't on the list.

I would be surprised if McLaren and Brawn go anywhere else. I think that everyone will fall into line, leaving Ferrari on their own and looking like fools. I wouldn't like to guess what they would do in that position. If there isn't a hidden agenda (which I expect there is), maybe they will fall into line as well.

VkmSpouge

12th June 2009, 23:13

I think I read somewhere that Dallara would build their chassis.

I think that's Campos which has the deal with Dallara.

AJP

13th June 2009, 00:39

maximilian

13th June 2009, 01:19

As for rejecting Prodrive. Well, there may be quite several explanations. :D Firstly, in 2006 Prodrive was chosen as 12th entry for Formula One. Since they didn't make it, they haven't been given another chance for revenge (although the last case was FIA's fault that they banned customer cars, but FIA doesn't care about this fact obviously). Or secondly Richards is too powerful and the last thing Mosley wants is more team principals, who it could be difficult to deal with. :p : Hence the choice of random F3 teams, who don't question Mosley's power. The already mentioned Manor/Wirth link to Mosley from the 1990's is quite interesting, but since when have Mosley's decisions been based on general well-being of F1 and not on his personal interests? :p :
Another possibility may be that Prodrive/Aston Martin will be competing in the split off series which may already be in the making. Would make more sense to side with the manufacturers, if that happens, no? We have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.

yodasarmpit

13th June 2009, 01:20

TBH, I expect only one team to still be contesting the situation in a weeks time, Ferrari.
They no longer have the personnel in place and are solely relying on spending power to get them back on top.

I really do want to see Ferrari in F1, but in all honesty Ferrari needs F1 more than F1 needs Ferrari.

CNR

13th June 2009, 01:39

FERRARI FUMING AS MAX COUNTS THEM IN
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/motorsports/view/84613/Ferrari-fuming-as-Max-counts-them-in/

But the FIA still listed Ferrari, as well as Red Bull and Toro Rosso, as having filed unconditional entries.

Five other FOTA members – McLaren, Renault, Brawn GP, BMW Sauber and Toyota – have been given a week to submit unconditional entries for next season or risk losing their places.

Red Bull Racing also issued a statement to clarify its bid, which read: “Our entry has been submitted as a conditional entry, consistent with those of all other FOTA members.”

if McLaren(mercedes) Renault BMW are left out would they block the red bull teams from using their engines

yodasarmpit

13th June 2009, 01:43

if McLaren(mercedes) Renault BMW are left out would they block the red bull teams from using their engines
No.

Business is business, and Mercedes, BMW, Renault are in the business of making money.

13th June 2009, 10:26

"Regrettably FOTA is being forced to outline in detail our objections to the new arbitrary FIA proposals and we will release details of our concerns in the near future which will constructively explain why the FIA's proposals are bad for the future of Formula 1, the jobs of those employed within the motor-racing industry and especially the millions of loyal fans who are dismayed and confused at the internal bickering within our sport"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76084

Regrettable?

What's 'regrettable' about having to publically state why you oppose the FIA plans and what you are proposing instead?

FOTA claim the 'fans' want transparency....so what is regrettable about having your plans out in the open?

FOTA are no better than the FIA.

wmcot

13th June 2009, 10:26

if McLaren(mercedes) Renault BMW are left out would they block the red bull teams from using their engines

If the parent company wants to cut costs and shut down the F1 engine manufacturing, the field could be made up of Cosworths.

wmcot

13th June 2009, 10:30

I doubt this is the official final list. This looks more like a Max list. Don't forget we now have another deadline next Friday.

Looks like Max picked the new teams most likely to side with him. Remember, rule changes must be unanimous and Max said he would "allow" rule changes! (Yeah, right!)

wmcot

13th June 2009, 10:45

On the bright side, the 24 Hours of Le Mans is starting soon...

Ghostwalker

13th June 2009, 12:18

On the bright side, the 24 Hours of Le Mans is starting soon...

yep 2 hours and 39 minutes to go :)

ioan

13th June 2009, 13:27

No.

Business is business, and Mercedes, BMW, Renault are in the business of making money.

:laugh:

Making money, huh?! You think that what the customer teams pay is enough to offset the costs of designing and producing those engines?!

ioan

13th June 2009, 13:27

yep 2 hours and 39 minutes to go :)

1h29 min

BDunnell

13th June 2009, 13:46

:laugh:

Making money, huh?! You think that what the customer teams pay is enough to offset the costs of designing and producing those engines?!

But, equally, are the manufacturers who supply those customer engines doing it purely out of the goodness of their hearts?

UltimateDanGTR

13th June 2009, 14:11

But, equally, are the manufacturers who supply those customer engines doing it purely out of the goodness of their hearts?

hit the nail on the head. Its not so much about making money in F1 as marketing-they're trying to market their brand by being in F1 (which in turn can be put down to trying to make money).

and, in answer to the question that you asked: what hearts? :D

jens

13th June 2009, 14:17

Another possibility may be that Prodrive/Aston Martin will be competing in the split off series which may already be in the making. Would make more sense to side with the manufacturers, if that happens, no? We have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.

I suspect for new teams it will be more difficult to join FOTA-series than F1, because FOTA-series would basically carry current rules forward, which from the technical point of view would make a debut for a new team more difficult. Prodrive's requirement in the last few years for joining F1 have been customer cars. Could it be possible that the new FOTA-series would allow customer cars to find more teams in addition to current eight?

Customer cars have been a topic in the last few years already, but somehow FIA hasn't decisively allowed them... And the team, who opposed customer cars more than anyone else - Williams - is now siding with FIA's F1...

ArrowsFA1

13th June 2009, 14:19

What's 'regrettable' about having to publically state why you oppose the FIA plans and what you are proposing instead?
I suspect their regret is simply directed at things having reached this point. It seems that having reached an impasse with the FIA they feel they have no other option but to publicly detail their "objections to the new arbitrary FIA proposals". Their statement does say they "will continue to act constructively on resolving differences with the FIA".

Hondo

13th June 2009, 15:04

But, equally, are the manufacturers who supply those customer engines doing it purely out of the goodness of their hearts?

I may be incorrect, but I seem to remember in the US ads for the old Sterling cars was something like ' Honda engine inspired by Formula 1 technology' and Accura may have done something similar later, but thats the only direct F1 connection I can think of a manufacturer making for their road cars.

Bagwan

13th June 2009, 15:11

What is "regrettable" is the failure of the FIA to recognise FOTA as a group , whose statements have said they act as one .

Saying that they "will continue to act constructively" points directly to this .

The real debate is about governance , but not about the lunatics taking over . They are merely asking for fewer "shock treatments" .

maximilian

13th June 2009, 15:59

I suspect for new teams it will be more difficult to join FOTA-series than F1, because FOTA-series would basically carry current rules forward, which from the technical point of view would make a debut for a new team more difficult. Prodrive's requirement in the last few years for joining F1 have been customer cars. Could it be possible that the new FOTA-series would allow customer cars to find more teams in addition to current eight?

Customer cars have been a topic in the last few years already, but somehow FIA hasn't decisively allowed them... And the team, who opposed customer cars more than anyone else - Williams - is now siding with FIA's F1...
I wouldn't put it past FOTA to give a helping hand to new entrants to a possible Formula Split series, after all, even if all 8 "teams" actually make the split (and I still tend to think that at least a couple of them may decide to stay in F1), they would perhaps need to run a few extra cars anyways (unless thinking that between 12 and 16 cars on the grid is enough, which I would disagree with) - so instead of running a 3rd car at your own cost, might as well sell off a few old chassis and engines, and let them have a go.

Else, perhaps it's thinkable that some teams may run junior teams with their associated brands... something like

Red Bull - Toro Rosso
Ferrari - Dodge/Chrysler/Fiat/Alfa Romeo
BMW - Rolls-Royce/Mini :D
Toyota - Lexus/Scion
Renault - Nissan/Samsung/Dacia :D
Mercedes(McLaren) - BrawnGP/Smart :D

24 cars on the grid... not too bad! :p I'd actually love to see this!

13th June 2009, 19:21

I suspect their regret is simply directed at things having reached this point.

Or, in other words, having not got their way.

13th June 2009, 21:02

"Even if it creeps up to £100million, it's better than £500million. If the cost goes up, we will still be working within our parameters – I have every confidence."

"We wanted to be independent of a manufacturer because we don't want to be used as a political pawn"

John Booth, Manor GP

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76081

Placid

14th June 2009, 00:29

I hope this is Max trying to force the teams to come around and isn't final. Who are Manor?

Check this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manor_Motorsport

AndyL

14th June 2009, 14:25

"We wanted to be independent of a manufacturer because we don't want to be used as a political pawn"

John Booth, Manor GP

Priceless :laugh:

ioan

14th June 2009, 15:57

ioan

14th June 2009, 15:58

But, equally, are the manufacturers who supply those customer engines doing it purely out of the goodness of their hearts?

No, but claiming that they are making a profit was pretty clueless.

BDunnell

14th June 2009, 16:34

No, but claiming that they are making a profit was pretty clueless.

Well, what is the point?

ClarkFan

15th June 2009, 00:57

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76081[/url]

Other than by Max?

Or has Mr. Booth not heard about sacrificing pieces more valuable than pawns to gain position on the board?

ClarkFan

K-Pu

15th June 2009, 02:16

Other than by Max?

Or has Mr. Booth not heard about sacrificing pieces more valuable than pawns to gain position on the board?

ClarkFan

If you are the pawn, you are sacrified.

The problem is that Max moves the pawns. In fact, he does whatever he likes, even illegal moves.

Being in Max´s F1 seems to be risky. You might suddenly become a pawn, and you thought you were a rook.

V12

15th June 2009, 03:07

It's a shame because 20 years ago an organisation like Manor would be moving up to F1 in their own right, especially if they had something like Wirth's high-tech organisation behind them.

I've had enough of chess I want to see a sport again without a 12 or 13 team limit :(

Hondo

15th June 2009, 04:34

An amusing conspiracy theory or, funny what boredom does to a whimsical mind.

Scenario:

McLaren quits Formula 1 or is sold, with the new management changing the name completely and firing Ron Dennis. Within 24 hours, Ferrari submits an entry to the FIA without conditions. The remaining 6 FOTA teams submit entries to the FIA without conditions. The Fota teams, except McLaren, are accepted for 2010. An additional new team, not the renamed McLaren group, are accepted for 2010. Max compromises and all the teams find a workable solution for 2010. During the course of the 2010 season, Max and the teams work on a solid 5 year agreement geared toward economy and stability while allowing for creativity. The new agreement isn't that wonderful for Bernie, but he can't fight the teams and the FIA. Max stands down once the new agreement is done.

The how and why:

Max hates Ron and what he has accomplished. If the spygate incident of 2007 had put McLaren out of business, Max would have retired. Max cannot die while McLaren lives. It helps that Ron, the father, is "officially" out of the picture but it's not enough. The child, McLaren, must also die for Max to be sure. Max's "final solution", as it were. Cut to the spanking incident. In the course of his lawsuit and behind the scenes investigations, Max has learned that Luca was behind the setup but Luca never intended it to go public. The players in the spanking incident realized they could make more money taking the story to the tabloid media so they double-crossed Luca. Luca wanted the information as insurance in case Max found out the real truth behind spygate. Max found out that the spygate incident was in fact a set-up job on McLaren, orchestrated by Luca to help them through the shakey dream team transition and as a little payback for the moveable floor problem. Thats why, as pre-agreed with Mike and Nigel, all criminal charges would be dropped by Luca after the final FIA verdict against McLaren. So, if McLaren can just be forced all of the way out, Max and Luca can have a little chat amongst themselves during which Luca will see the light and return to the FIA fold.

Cool.

wmcot

15th June 2009, 08:34

The real debate is about governance , but not about the lunatics taking over . They are merely asking for fewer "shock treatments" .

But it's too much to ask for stable rules from unstable minds (Max).

ArrowsFA1

15th June 2009, 11:34

"We wanted to be independent of a manufacturer because we don't want to be used as a political pawn"

John Booth, Manor GP

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76081

Italian racing outfit N.Technology says it does not understand why its application to race in Formula 1 was rejected by the FIA - after claiming that it has been a 'victim' of the row between the governing body and the current teams.

Speaking to Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera, Sipsz claimed: "The applications have been used by the Federation as pawns to move in the fight against the teams."

"Toro Rosso and Red Bull are included despite missing the compulsory indication of the engine, and it doesn't say who will race under the budget cap. We are victims of their war."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76220

15th June 2009, 11:44

"Sipsz and Codignoni reveal that they were informed by the FIA about having missed deadlines for submitting financial and technical details of their teams"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76220

I am evil Homer

15th June 2009, 11:55

Indeed....I doubt they have them TBH...couldn't continue running a WTCC team and yet want to be aprt of F1?!?!

wmcot

16th June 2009, 09:32

Indeed....I doubt they have them TBH...couldn't continue running a WTCC team and yet want to be aprt of F1?!?!

They just might be able to make a go of it in Max's Formula Bargain (or is it Formula Cheapo?)

ArrowsFA1

16th June 2009, 09:41

According to N.Technology "they were informed by the FIA about having missed deadlines for submitting financial and technical details of their teams - even though they are adamant such information was sent in on time."

Whether they can run an effective F1 team is another question, but then that applies to all the new pawns, sorry - teams :p :

16th June 2009, 10:35

Whether they can run an effective F1 team is another question, but then that applies to all the new pawns, sorry - teams :p :

I've never thought of Martin Birrane or Dave Richard's as being anybody's 'pawns'....correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they also lodge unconditional entrys?

ioan

16th June 2009, 18:36

I've never thought of Martin Birrane or Dave Richard's as being anybody's 'pawns'....correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they also lodge unconditional entrys?

That's exactly why they were not on the list, because they aren't Max' pawns like the Manor guys for example.

16th June 2009, 22:49

BDunnell

16th June 2009, 23:17

If it was so certain that the new teams were Max's pawns....why did the likes of Birrane & Richards lodge an entry in a championship where Max is in control??

I think this is a very reasonable and interesting point for discussion. Is it really plausible that they believed he would back down or quit? I very much doubt it.

AndyL

16th June 2009, 23:30

To claim that the new teams are pawns of the President of the FIA is just a lazy excuse for not having a logical argument against them.

It's not an argument "against them" at all. They may be perfectly viable and worthy F1 teams. Nevertheless they have a value to Max in his political fight against FOTA and they're not in any position to disagree with him themselves, so in that sense they are political pawns.

ioan

17th June 2009, 00:02

If it was so certain that the new teams were Max's pawns....why did the likes of Birrane & Richards lodge an entry in a championship where Max is in control??

To claim that the new teams are pawns of the President of the FIA is just a lazy excuse for not having a logical argument against them.

How do you explain that some of the least prepared teams (USF1 and Manor) are on the list while Prodrive and Lola aren't?!

To be honest the Manor case is as clear as possible given that Mosley has very tight links to Nick Wirth.

What about the USF1 entry?! Why are they better than Prodrive?

K-Pu

17th June 2009, 00:47

I think this is a very reasonable and interesting point for discussion. Is it really plausible that they believed he would back down or quit? I very much doubt it.

Maybe they thought they could enter the championship because Max was going to f*ck things up so much there would be room for them. Max would be kind of forced to accept their entries, because, for example, Prodrive would be a "strong new team".

Or maybe they thought FOTA´s maneuvres would be more effective at negotiating with Max instead of going for the split series...

Anyway, this is a good indicator of how dictatorial Max is. That´s why it´s hard to believe everything he says about the FOTA in his last statement (which is posted in another thread).

VkmSpouge

17th June 2009, 02:01

It's not an argument "against them" at all. They may be perfectly viable and worthy F1 teams. Nevertheless they have a value to Max in his political fight against FOTA and they're not in any position to disagree with him themselves, so in that sense they are political pawns.

True the FIA would quite happily use all the new entries and proposed new entries as their pawns (as would FOTA given half a chance). But of course those new teams aren't going to be pawns forever.

Anyway, this is a good indicator of how dictatorial Max is. That´s why it´s hard to believe everything he says about the FOTA in his last statement (which is posted in another thread).

I find it very hard to believe anything the FIA or FOTA have to say about the current situation.

ArrowsFA1

17th June 2009, 10:05

To claim that the new teams are pawns of the President of the FIA is just a lazy excuse for not having a logical argument against them.
I for one have no argument against new teams. It would be good to see new teams in F1, and it is something that is long overdue.

Max insists his cost-capped version of F1 will happen. Given that existing teams do not share his enthusiasm Max needed teams that would because clearly his "vision" is non-negotiable.

Obviously F1 without the $48m entry fee, and the imposition of reduced costs, makes it far easier for anyone to enter.

The more teams wanting to enter the weaker the position of the existing teams.

Having welcomed, and encouraged, manufacturer involvement in F1 Max now seems intent on marginalising them. This explains Manor's statement about not wishing to be a pawn of the manufacturers. Manor are clearly supportive of Max's vision as it enables them to enter F1.

This is F1 politics. Max is a master practitioner of the art and in politics people and events are used to achieve a particular aim.

Max once compared F1 to a game of chess so pawns is an appropriate term to apply to people and events involved in what we are watching now.

leopard

17th June 2009, 10:16

Actually rejection against new entrants in their earnest want to participate in F1 is a bit pity. Perhaps this will need too much cost, but still it will be nowhere dear instead of performing different breakaway series.

Split the sport into two categories, division and prime class. The two team winners of division class have their right to promote them to the prime class, on the other hand two teams at the bottom of prime class will be in the zone of degradation to compete in the division class in the next following season. Teams will be greatly motivated by this.

Dave B

17th June 2009, 10:34

Split the sport into two categories, division and prime class. The two team winners of division class have their right to promote them to the prime class, on the other hand two teams at the bottom of prime class will be in the zone of degradation to compete in the division class in the next following season. Teams will be greatly motivated by this.
I've always liked that idea. GP2 should be run with F1-spec cars, and the winning team should automatically win an entry to F1 for the following season.

Conversely, the team at the bottom of the F1 constructors' championship should be relegated to GP2.

It works perfectly in football and many other sports, there's no reason why it couldn't work in F1/GP2.

New teams could be allowed to enter GP2 without a deposit and with a sensible budget, if they're good enough on merit they can earn their place in F1.

Knock-on

17th June 2009, 12:13

I've always liked that idea. GP2 should be run with F1-spec cars, and the winning team should automatically win an entry to F1 for the following season.

Conversely, the team at the bottom of the F1 constructors' championship should be relegated to GP2.

It works perfectly in football and many other sports, there's no reason why it couldn't work in F1/GP2.

New teams could be allowed to enter GP2 without a deposit and with a sensible budget, if they're good enough on merit they can earn their place in F1.

That's an interesting idea.

If you had a way to produce F1 cars at a reasonable cost, you could do this.

I think the way you have to do it is to ensure there is little benefit in investing millions of extra pounds as it doesn't produce any benefit.

Sounds horribly like a spec series i know but what's more important at the end of the day? I think there's a way to have individual innovation while ensuring a stable platform and predictable costs.

schmenke

18th June 2009, 18:32

I've always liked that idea. GP2 should be run with F1-spec cars, and the winning team should automatically win an entry to F1 for the following season.

Conversely, the team at the bottom of the F1 constructors' championship should be relegated to GP2.

It works perfectly in football and many other sports, there's no reason why it couldn't work in F1/GP2.

New teams could be allowed to enter GP2 without a deposit and with a sensible budget, if they're good enough on merit they can earn their place in F1.

That defeats the purpose of GP2 which is to identify potential future F1 drivers, not necessarily to provide a B-series, or development platform to F1. This is why GP2 is a spec-series... identical Dallara chassis and Renault engine for all teams, so that all drivers are equally equipped allowing impartial judgement on driving skills.

Also, investors agree to sponsor an F1 team to race in formula one, where the prime media coverage is. They would be reluctant to offer sponsorship, particularily to a back-end team, if there was a chance that they could lose that coverage in the following year.

Mikeall

18th June 2009, 21:21

About the new teams:

USF1 were pretty much guaranteed but I don't see any real substance. They aren't currently racing in any seriesand do they have a relationship with any sponsors? Yes they have been working on the projects for longer than the other two teams but they are starting from nothing.

Campos will do well they're lower formual teams have been successful and will find getting sponsors relatively easy as they are the only Spanish based team. The car is designed by Dallara who know a thing or to about designing fast racing cars (IRL, GP2, Renault World Series, F3...) They should be comfortably the best new team.

Manor are a bit of a gamble. Yes they have been sucessful in F3 and FRenault but what is their appeal to propsective sponsors. Wirth will be designing the cars with their advanced CFD technology and likely very little wind tunnel use. It is a gamble but its worked in ALMS with Acura and fits nicely with cost cutting

Of the others not selected:

Prodrive may be a big company but the coexist with manufacturers on short term projects. If the Aston Martin connection came to an end so would the F1 team. They were also given an entry before yet didn't join. Someone else deserved a chance.

Lola were sort of committed but Lola Grand Prix would be seperate entity showing perhaps a lack of confidence in the likelyhood of the success of the team if they were picked. Also when have Lola run a race team?