FIAT

[ChicagocrewIRL]

It's intriguing this new FIAT ownership of Chrysler. FIAT now owns many of the top auto brands and is well positioned to grow immensely once the world economy turns around.

FIAT currently owns Ferrari, Chrysler, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, and Lancia among others. I think the biggest problem FIAT faces is the prevailing perception that Italian automobiles are great for flash but are horrible from a quality and maintenance standpoint.

If FIAT can build and badge an Indy powerplant that can come close to the reliability of the current Honda it would go a long way to change that perception of Italian automobiles in the U.S. market.

I think it makes a lot of sense now for the Italian auto giant to get its engines to Indianapolis and enter the U.S. market in a big way.

I think it would be smartest to build and badge either an Alfa Romeo, Fiat or Maserati for Indy. The Chrysler brand is already well known but again if FIAT could build an Indy Chrysler/Dodge badged engine, it could help upgrade the Chrysler/Dodge brand image in the U.S.

It would be great if Ferrari came to Indy but I don't think that particular brand needs any help in the U.S. market.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I think one of the reasons the Fiat Group participated in the manufacturers roundtable was that they wanted to return to the US market with the Alfa Romeo brand, so they wanted to badge the Indy Car engines as Alfa Romeos. The return was postponed to 2011 but that was before the alliance/acquisition of Chrysler. The question is, whether that deal has any effects of the return to Alfa Romeo - I don't think it should. I still expect Alfa Romeo engines in the Indy Car series and Dodge continue in NASCAR.

[garyshell]

I think one of the reasons the Fiat Group participated in the manufacturers roundtable was that they wanted to return to the US market with the Alfa Romeo brand, so they wanted to badge the Indy Car engines as Alfa Romeos. The return was postponed to 2011 but that was before the alliance/acquisition of Chrysler. The question is, whether that deal has any effects of the return to Alfa Romeo - I don't think it should. I still expect Alfa Romeo engines in the Indy Car series and Dodge continue in NASCAR.


If anything I think the Chrysler/Fiat deal would help the idea of Alfa badging an engine for the IRL. And maybe we could get, what in my mind is, the single most beautiful car ever built as a pace car for the Indy 500 and other races, the Alfa Romeo 8c Competizione.

http://www.uncrate.com/men/images/2007/08/alfa-romeo-8c-2.jpg
Gary

[jimispeed]

http://www.uncrate.com/men/images/2007/08/alfa-romeo-8c-2.jpg
Gary


I've seen a few test drives, and they weren't very impressed with its nimbleness.

But it's absolutely the meanest sounded car ever! It sounds like it could eat you alive!!!

Turn up your volume......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX93trcL57o

Heheheheheh......... :cool:

[garyshell]

I've seen a few test drives, and they weren't very impressed with its nimbleness.

But it's absolutely the meanest sounded car ever! It sounds like it could eat you alive!!!

Turn up your volume......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX93trcL57o

Heheheheheh......... :cool:


I got to see one in person last June when I was in the Netherlands on business. The same facility where we held a conference also held a private event for the cleints of a high end car dealer from Amsterdam. I snuck in and got to see the Alfa. WOWIE, WOW, WOW, WOW. It was drop dead gorgeous. Who care how it handles? Those lines and that sound are all I need.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Leave it to the Italians to build something THAT beautiful to the eye and then give it that sexy sounding motor....my lord that is a car that makes you 16 every time you sat in it...I would lose my license in a week...

[ChicagocrewIRL]

YES !!! Bring it to Indianapolis PLEEEEEEZ !!! I will take back every bad thing I have ever said about Italian automobiles and Italian drivers. :)

[CCWS77]

The U.S. administration pretty much recruited Fiat and handed them the deal on a golden platter. They have to put zero cash into the deal. Given that, I would be shocked if Fiat actually had solid plans for the future that extended beyond next month.

[call_me_andrew]

Usually an automaker only supports one series per continent. Chrysler already supports NASCAR so adding Alfa Romeo to IndyCar would only be redundant.

And for a long time I was hoping that they would badge the IndyCar engines as Ferraris as that may create a race at Imola.

[Jag_Warrior]

Usually an automaker only supports one series per continent. Chrysler already supports NASCAR so adding Alfa Romeo to IndyCar would only be redundant.

And for a long time I was hoping that they would badge the IndyCar engines as Ferraris as that may create a race at Imola.

I don't see it as redundant at all. What redundancy would a Dodge NASCAR program have with an Alfa IRL or ALMS program? I mean, what possible crossover could there be?

In the past, GM has supported NASCAR, CART and IMSA at the same time. More recently, they've supported NASCAR and ALMS at the same time. Ford has supported F1 and WRC in Europe, as well as NASCAR, Trans Am, NHRA and CART in the U.S.

FIAT Group could easily (if it's their de$ire) support a Dodge NASCAR program and an Alfa IRL or ALMS program. Even though Ferrari is run as an autonomous company within the FIAT Group (not FIAT Auto), I doubt that Dodge being in NASCAR is going to affect Ferrari's ALMS program. And I don't see there being much crossover between potential Dodge customers and potential Alfa customers, so why not have one in NASCAR and the other in the IRL or ALMS?

What I haven't seen yet is whether Chrysler is going to be a subsidiary under FIAT Group (sort of like Ferrari), or if it'll be rolled into FIAT Auto (like FIAT, Lancia, Alfa, etc.).

[El Libertador]

I don't know that the low popularity of open-wheel racing in the US really justifies entering as a manufacture...especially when the FIAT-Chrysler deal isn't the most promising one that's ever weant down. I'd love to see open-wheel rise to what it once was, but if they're getting .6 as a season-high and a sub-4 at the 500, it's kind of hard to say "yeah, we're going to sell more cars doing that." It'll come down to what (if any) road-relevant developments an IRL engine program will offer with the new formula, unless the series suddenly turns around in popularity. That's why manufactures do ALMS even when there isn't a whole lot of interest here...it's a cool R&D platform for their street cars. I'm not sure that's exactly what the next gen IndyCar Series will be, but we'll see.

[call_me_andrew]

I don't see it as redundant at all. What redundancy would a Dodge NASCAR program have with an Alfa IRL or ALMS program? I mean, what possible crossover could there be?

These days it's always one manufacturer, one continent, one kind of racing.


In the past, GM has supported NASCAR, CART and IMSA at the same time. More recently, they've supported NASCAR and ALMS at the same time. Ford has supported F1 and WRC in Europe, as well as NASCAR, Trans Am, NHRA and CART in the U.S.

Yeah, that was the past. GM used to be profitable too.


FIAT Group could easily (if it's their de$ire) support a Dodge NASCAR program and an Alfa IRL or ALMS program. Even though Ferrari is run as an autonomous company within the FIAT Group (not FIAT Auto), I doubt that Dodge being in NASCAR is going to affect Ferrari's ALMS program. And I don't see there being much crossover between potential Dodge customers and potential Alfa customers, so why not have one in NASCAR and the other in the IRL or ALMS?

I don't think Ferrari in LMGT2 qualifies as a factory program. I believe it's all privateers.

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm not aware of any such precedents which restrict a manufacturer to one series per continent or one kind of racing. And if using motorsports to feature brands, it would make no sense to only allow Dodge in NASCAR or only FIAT/Alfa/Maserati in the IRL or ALMS. These decisions are made based on potential ROI relative to a given brand. What would only having Dodge in NASCAR do for Maserati, Alfa or even FIAT? Nothing. What would only having Maserati, Alfa or FIAT in the IRL or ALMS do for Dodge? Nothing.

Ford Racing still supports various NASCAR programs and an NHRA program. Honda supports an IRL program and an ALMS program through Acura. GM, though bankrupt, continues to support various NASCAR programs and an ALMS program (for the time being, anyway). Daimler-Benz supports a DTM program in addition to its F1 program.

There are no hard & fast "rules" about where manufacturers race.

[call_me_andrew]

It's not about precedents, it's about practicality. Ford sinks a lot of money into NASCAR and NHRA takes whatever is left. ALMS is an entrance to Le Mans which tanscends geography (as does F1).

[Jag_Warrior]

It's not about precedents, it's about practicality. Ford sinks a lot of money into NASCAR and NHRA takes whatever is left. ALMS is an entrance to Le Mans which tanscends geography (as does F1).

Oh. So now you're saying that if FIAT keeps Dodge in NASCAR, they might place Alfa or Maserati in ALMS, but not the IRL? Is that why Honda is in both the IRL and ALMS? And Ford and Toyota being in both NASCAR and NHRA doesn't count because... the budgets are not comparable? M'kay. :dozey:

As I said before, there are no rules. Manufacturers choose series which meet their current and future needs and desires. The structure of FIAT and Chrysler is just now being worked out. Chrysler may even cease to exist, and some current Chryslers may be badged as FIATs. From what is now being communicated from Auburn Hills, FIATs and Dodges may share showrooms, but Alfas and Maseratis will not. So, as I said before, there would be no redundancy in branding an IRL or ALMS engine as an Alfa or Maserati, while a NASCAR engine is branded as a Dodge or FIAT. If that is within FIAT's goals and budget, there is no reason for them not to do it.

[call_me_andrew]

They could put it in ALMS, or they could put it in LMS.

Well NASCAR's rules require that the manufacturer be based in the U.S. or assemble the vehicle in the U.S. So unless the model Fiat builds the car in the U.S, they can't do that.

If you haven't noticed, Ford is having some financial issues and may leave NASCAR. Keeping a small investment in NHRA gives them a foot in the door.

[Jag_Warrior]

They could put it in ALMS, or they could put it in LMS.

If they decide to take Maserati or Alfa racing, they will simply choose whichever series that makes the most business sense in their judgment. If the IRL makes a strong case, FIAT could do an engine platform which would be suitable for the IRL and ALMS. Once you had to attach condition after condition to your original statement, it fell apart.



Well NASCAR's rules require that the manufacturer be based in the U.S. or assemble the vehicle in the U.S. So unless the model Fiat builds the car in the U.S, they can't do that.

Dodge Chargers are built in Brampton, Ontario. FIAT is, of course, based in Italy. So you're claiming that NASCAR is going to exclude the Dodge Charger? Don't confuse corporate ownership and parentage with brands. All that's being discussed is instead of there being a "Chrysler", the FIAT (brand) might take its place. But no matter what, the entire entity will be partially owned and controlled by FIAT SpA.




If you haven't noticed, Ford is having some financial issues and may leave NASCAR. Keeping a small investment in NHRA gives them a foot in the door.

Welcome to two years ago. Ford is certainly not out of the woods yet, but Ford is the only one of the Big 3 to have actually increased production over the past few months. Ford has also increased its market share, and has now passed Toyota for the #2 position in the U.S. They're taking a bigger slice of the smaller N.A. OEM pie. Ford has cut spending in NASCAR and most other areas. But Ford has never said anything about leaving NASCAR (or NHRA). In fact, quite the opposite. Here's the 2010 Fusion for next year's NASCAR Sprint Cup season (courtesy of Jayski):
http://www.jayski.com/schemes/2009/cup/2010_sprintcup_fusion.jpg

[Jag_Warrior]

Redundancy? :confused:

$30K, all day... any day.
http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide2007/photos/2007/Dodge/Charger/Sedan/2007_Dodge_Charger_ext_1.jpg

vs.

$130K+
http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/82523/2008-Maserati-Granturismo-i001.jpg

[anthonyvop]

Redundancy? :confused:

$30K, all day... any day.
http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide2007/photos/2007/Dodge/Charger/Sedan/2007_Dodge_Charger_ext_1.jpg

vs.

$130K+
http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/82523/2008-Maserati-Granturismo-i001.jpg
Maserati is built by Ferrari. While owned by FIAT Ferrari is run as an independent entity.....The guys at FIAT are smart enough to know not to mess with success.

Even if it wasn't the case, the Charger is a big, ponderous, 4 door sedan. The Meserati Granturismo is just that. A grand tourer.

[Jag_Warrior]

Maserati is built by Ferrari. While owned by FIAT Ferrari is run as an independent entity.....The guys at FIAT are smart enough to know not to mess with success.

FIAT bought back 100% of Ferrari's interest in Maserati about 4 years ago. But you're correct about the structure of Ferrari: it's a partially owned subsidiary, run autonomously under FIAT Group SpA. Neither it nor Maserati are part of FIAT Group Automobiles (Lancia, Alfa, FIAT, etc.). Ferrari and Maserati didn't play well together, so Montezemolo separated them. He put Alfa and Maserati together on platforms and components.



Even if it wasn't the case, the Charger is a big, ponderous, 4 door sedan. The Meserati Granturismo is just that. A grand tourer.

Yeah, exactly. That's the part that I can't understand Andrew not getting. FIAT Group SpA owns automotive brands that do not share markets or customers. It all comes down to how they choose to market each of them. But the fact that they have FIAT's Dodge brand in NASCAR has nothing to do with where they might choose to put Maserati or Alfa. It wouldn't make any sense to think that having Dodge in NASCAR would affect Maserati or even Alfa being in ALMS or the IRL. Who in the hell is going to see a Dodge Charger and think, "yeah, an Alfa Brera is what I'd really like to have." :rolleyes:

It ain't got jack to do with how a FIAT/Dodge Charger might be marketed, but that is one sharp lil car.
http://www.carpages.co.uk/alfa_romeo/alfa_romeo_images/alfa_romeo_brera_14_03_06.jpg

[Bob Riebe]

It's not about precedents, it's about practicality. Ford sinks a lot of money into NASCAR and NHRA takes whatever is left. ALMS is an entrance to Le Mans which tanscends geography (as does F1).
It is?

Well I guess Penske and Porsche were so concerned about getting to Lemans; oh wait they told the French, don't call us, cause we won't be coming, no how, no way.
--------
As a side note, GM just told Chevy teams, everywhere, there will be a lot less money coming there way this years.

[nigelred5]

It's intriguing this new FIAT ownership of Chrysler. FIAT now owns many of the top auto brands and is well positioned to grow immensely once the world economy turns around.

FIAT currently owns Ferrari, Chrysler, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, and Lancia among others. I think the biggest problem FIAT faces is the prevailing perception that Italian automobiles are great for flash but are horrible from a quality and maintenance standpoint.




Well, that fits right in with the Dodge/Chrysler brand reputation and track record. The only Chrysler product I or my family has ever owned since the last bankruptcy that was reliable was built 100% by Mitsubishi in Japan. Long on style, very short on quality and reliability. Believe me, I've tried out every hot looking vehicle they have come out with in the last 15 years or so and other than a Jeep, it was the same thing. I tested a crossfire the month after they were introduced, thinking, ok, finally the first MERC in Chrysler suit. The paint was already wearing off the knobs on the radio and HVAC controls.

How about we save about half of those Chrysler dealerships and pop them full of Fiats and Lancias?