Saudi King wants Obama to impose peace

[Hondo]

King Abdullah wants Obama to impose a Middle East Peace plan by, I suppose, leaning on Israel.

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-40143320090607

Tell you what King, I'm really tired of everybody and their brother bitching about the USA and what they do or don't do in the Middle East so why don't you impose a peace plan yourself? You and the entire UAE have grown rich and comfortable getting others to fight your battles for you. You have your own army. Use it. You know what your and the other Arab armies are actually worth in the field don't you? When Saddam invaded Kuwait, you couldn't get US troops on your common border fast enough. Your troops would probably have outrun Kuwait's troops. Look at the speed at which the coalition removed Saddam from Kuwait. Look at the speed at which the US and it's allies removed Saddam from control of Iraq. Look at the durations of all the Arab-Israeli wars. Note on the '73 war. Yes Israel got aid from the USA but had already begun turning the battle before signifigant aid rolled in. Not to mention the opposite side was equipped with top of the line Soviet stuff. The Syrians even had night vision. The Arab armies got whipped on tactics and the fact that Egypt should have held their positions and told the Syrians to stuff themselves. Egypt was the only country that really gave Israel a run for their money and now have a peace treaty with Israel, along with Jordan, and these treaties seem to be working.

Look at the Iraq-Iran war. What, 8 years or so in duration and nobody gained anything. I suppose you could argue that was a Persian-Arab war but you get the general drift. Assuming you could talk Obama into stopping aid to Israel, you still couldn't take them down. Even without the USA, there will still be plenty of nations willing to sell them arms and the Israelis will put them to good use.

If they ever take the handcuffs off of oil production at home, you'll find we have plenty here and don't need to be dependant on your's or anybody elses. You may shake up Europe with your oil games, but we can ride them out if we wish. Iran is becoming a concern because you clowns have allowed them to become a concern. It has nothing to do with Palestine.

Do something for yourselves for a change. It's your neighborhood, not mine.

Maybe you could start by figuring out what Islam is for, and what Islam is against.

[markabilly]

I say impose peace by massive use of the neutron bomb, so the oil will not glow in the dark

[Roamy]

Amen to the fine above posts !!!

[Eki]

Do something for yourselves for a change. It's your neighborhood, not mine.

I agree. The US should leave the Middle East and leave Israel on their own.

I don't understand why Americans have such a strong interest in Israel, when only about 2% of the Americans are Jewish. Is it because the Jews have far greater influence on American economics and politics than their overall share? Or is the US just using Israel as an excuse to meddle with the Middle Eastern affairs?

[steve_spackman]

Is it because the Jews have far greater influence on American economics and politics than their overall share? Or is the US just using Israel as an excuse to meddle with the Middle Eastern affairs?

Both!

[Hondo]

I agree. The US should leave the Middle East and leave Israel on their own.

I don't understand why Americans have such a strong interest in Israel, when only about 2% of the Americans are Jewish. Is it because the Jews have far greater influence on American economics and politics than their overall share? Or is the US just using Israel as an excuse to meddle with the Middle Eastern affairs?


Beats me. I read the other day the US is going to give Pakistan $1 billion in aid for their fight against the Taliban. I'd bet for $500 million you could put together a private military force that could defeat the Taliban and Pakistan both.

Too many people think if the USA would stop their support completely then Israel would go down. That won't happen. There isn't an Islamic force out there with the balls or training to take them down. I dare say that without US intervention, Israel would be holding more territory than it does now.

[steve_spackman]

I dare say that without US intervention, Israel would be holding more territory than it does now.

In a way i would have to agree with you.

[steve_spackman]

I dare say that without US intervention, Israel would be holding more territory than it does now.

In a sense yes!

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree. The US should leave the Middle East and leave Israel on their own.

I don't understand why Americans have such a strong interest in Israel, when only about 2% of the Americans are Jewish. Is it because the Jews have far greater influence on American economics and politics than their overall share? Or is the US just using Israel as an excuse to meddle with the Middle Eastern affairs?



It of course wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with the fact that America loves an underdog, and in 1947, Israel WAS the underdog. Just as they were during the Sinai war, the 1967 conflict and the Yom Kippur conflict in 1973. They may not be the underdog in Your eyes...but there is one nation in that area that has a true democracy, has freedom of the press and counts maybe 7 million citizens. Their oppoisition usually has them outnumbered 10 to 1. If the Arabs TRULY think they can take on the Israeli's, let them do it straight up and get this over with.

You know the truth tho Eki.....you just conveinently ignore it. The Arab nations in this part of the world are far more harsh and cruel towards their own people and are bigger jerks than any war hawk in the Kniesst. Of course....you keep up your fictions and fairy tales. Adolf Hitler would be proud to know guillable anti-Jew thinking still survives in the civlized world....

[Camelopard]

Yes israel is a true democracy if you are jewish.....

In other threads I've posted many links to how the Palestinians are treated in israel and I've also seen it with my own eyes, you guys just conveniently ignore the fact that israel can do anything it wants.

As for america supporting the underdog? really that one does make me laugh! The shah was the underdog in 1953? Batista was the underdog? Saddam the underdog? Here's a new one, Somoza was the underdog!

Have any of you visited this site? http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

Also have any of you actually visited Israel and seen for yourselves what is happening there? I guess in particular I'm asking you Mark.

The last comment about hitler being proud is typical of the usual response that is given when anything israel does is criticised. Why can't there be dicussion on how palestinainas are being treated now without any reference to ww11, hilter or anti-semetism.

There are many things I don't like about lot's of countries, just because I disagree with some of the policies from india, pakistan, russia, japan etc, doesn't make me anti-hindu, anti-buddhist, anti-muslim, anti-catholic or anti anything else...... I would just like to see fairness for all.....


Just one of the stories that happened this month.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/20090601_Settlers_assault_Palestinians_near_Kedumi m_witness_Yihya_Sideh.asp

’Imad tried to get away from the stone-throwing settlers, but he couldn’t because there were dozens of them. After going a few meters, the vehicle stopped, and we got out. The settlers moved back a bit. Then we saw an Israeli-army jeep parked on the left side of the road, about twenty meters from us. When the soldiers saw us get out, four soldiers got out of the jeep and aimed their weapons at us. ‘Imad and some of the laborers shouted, in Hebrew, that we had injured persons, and asked for first-aid. The soldiers didn't care. They continued to shout at us: “Get away from here.” When the settlers saw the soldiers force us to leave, they continued to throw stones at us and shouted at us, in Arabic and in Hebrew, ”Death to Arabs.” We had to get back into the vehicle. Shaker ‘Atiyyah Sideh was hit in the face while we were outside the vehicle.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes israel is a true democracy if you are jewish.....

In other threads I've posted many links to how the Palestinians are treated in israel and I've also seen it with my own eyes, you guys just conveniently ignore the fact that israel can do anything it wants.

As for america supporting the underdog? really that one does make me laugh! The shah was the underdog in 1953? Batista was the underdog? Saddam the underdog? Here's a new one, Somoza was the underdog!

Have any of you visited this site? http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

Also have any of you actually visited Israel and seen for yourselves what is happening there? I guess in particular I'm asking you Mark.

The last comment about hitler being proud is typical of the usual response that is given when anything israel does is criticised. Why can't there be dicussion on how palestinainas are being treated now without any reference to ww11, hilter or anti-semetism.

There are many things I don't like about lot's of countries, just because I disagree with some of the policies from india, pakistan, russia, japan etc, doesn't make me anti-hindu, anti-buddhist, anti-muslim, anti-catholic or anti anything else...... I would just like to see fairness for all.....

The American PEOPLE like an underdog. I wont dispute that the UK and US did in Iran was terrible, nor will I defend the backing of Batista, but those events happened in a different world than the one we have now. There, cold war sensibilities and the desire of multi-nationals to use their governement friends to make things happen was still a viable thing.


Ok, you bring up the Palestinians. Are there Arab citizens in Israel? YES. Do they have the vote? The ones in country I believe do. Do they have to serve in the Israeli army? Actually...no they don't, I have read more than once they are saved this duty, but a Jew isn't.

You going to tell me Isreal is a total dictatorship? It isn't. By the standards in that part of the world, Israel is a shining light of democracy. Egypt? Jordan? Syria? Saudi Arabia? All crush any attempts at dissent and free speech if the government isn't a fan of whose saying it. There are no open elections as we know them in those nations either. So before you go telling me how nasty the Jews are in Israel towards their Arab citizens, realize that if the situation was reversed, things would be much harsher.

Israel was formed in 1947 by UN dictate and there was to be TWO states, one for the Arab Palestinians, one for the Jews. The Arab League didn't want this, and told all the Palestinians in the area that the second the new state was created, they would send their armies in and crush the Jewish state, giving the Palestinians all the land. Of course, we know what happened, the silly Jews thought they could win and they did. So right off the top, there was no effort by the Arabs to accomodate and accept the fact Israel was a reality.

Then you add in the fact that the Palestinians who didn't leave for this invasion and stayed behind the Israeli lines were not imprisioned, exported or shot. They were allowed to stay and given citizenship. Now we must also remember that every Jewish community in the Arab world pretty much was expelled to Israel before this war even started. No tolerance by our Arab friends there was there?

Add in all the other attempts to crush Israel with larger and well equipped armies. Israel still hangs around.

You do of course see a trend here? The Small nation that has turned what it was given into a pretty modern and well run country in a part of the world where blaming everyone else for one's state of affairs just wont do will it?

Is Israel always right? No...I don't think they handled that mess in Gaza last summer that well, although I understand where their motives could have come from. I don't think they grasp the fact they have a bad PR image when they go level half of Lebanon trying to chase down Hezbollah, but again, look where that one starts. There is a relative peace, and all the sudden Hezbollah takes a few hostages and starts lobbing rockets on civilians. These actions were never condemned.

As for the Palestinians, they have had more money pumped their way by America and the west than people realize, and yet Gaza is still a dump and the West Bank isn't much either. Corrupt leaders, terrorist groups with political wings bent on war with Israel in some form all are issues, yet it is always blamed on Israel for their plight.

AT some point, the Arab world has to look at itself in the mirror and realize that if their people are not living well, it might not be the fault of 7 million Jews in a sliver of desert which virtually no one wanted until about 80 years ago.

I don't condemn all those who criticize Israel as Nazi's Camel, especially not you, but I was of course referring to Eki, who hasn't found a dictator or criminal regime he couldn't find something noble about if he needs an Anti American rant...

[steve_spackman]

There are many things I don't like about lot's of countries, just because I disagree with some of the policies from india, pakistan, russia, japan etc, doesn't make me anti-hindu, anti-buddhist, anti-muslim, anti-catholic or anti anything else...... I would just like to see fairness for all.....

Well put there!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

BTW...I would love to go to Israel. I have noticed that the State of Israel has always paid for foreign parliamentarians to go there and some come back and don't change their minds (i.e. Israel is wrong) and some do.

I had a friend while going to school who was a Canadian Jew who had dual citizenship with Israel. He had just gotten out of his 3 years in the army there and he told me a lot about what is going on. Understand that this guy was a left of center politcally. He had an Arab girlfriend, spoke the language, and felt a lot of what the government of Israel was doing was a bit heavy handed. He then pointed out tho they never have the luxury of being wrong or underreacting to any threat. They have won 5 wars in that country, and they cant afford to lose one.

He told me that much of what is going on there is extremists on both sides having their way, whether it is attacks by suicide bombers (have enough of those, and you build a tough border to keep them out...a wall) or Jewish settlers in the West Bank who don't want to leave, leaving their country in a perilously damaging situation. He felt if the nutjobs in the PLO ( this was pre Hamas and Hezbollah) ever stopped advocating Israel's demise, the arab people themselves would likely live in harmony but it is the Arab hierarchy in the surrounding nations that didn't want the fighting to stop.

Only Egypt and Jordan have any sort of peace treaty with Israel in the Arab world, and most Moslem nations follow along. This shouldn't be about religion, it should be about the right of people to live free without any oppression. One could say Isreal is guilty of oppressing Palestinians, but I would humbly suggest the Arab world has done a better job of that over the last 60 years.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well put there!!

You just don't want me calling you a Nazi...and I wouldn't. I would call you a a beer swilling doofus with opinions, which really isnt' much different than what I was at your age...lol Just My opinions were right....

[steve_spackman]

You just don't want me calling you a Nazi...and I wouldn't. I would call you a a beer swilling doofus with opinions, which really isnt' much different than what I was at your age...lol Just My opinions were right....

Cheers ;)

[Hondo]

Contrary to what some may believe, I don't give a rat's a$$ about Israel one way or another. I just point out that thinking aid from the USA is the only thing that keeps Israel alive is incorrect. Israel keeps Israel alive. It's laughable the way some factions keep throwing rocks at Israel and then scream for the UN when Israel finally comes after them.

If Obama stops aid to Israel and an Arab or Persian country comes after them, I hope they are prepared to lose even more of their territory because Israel won't give it back on their own. They'll keep it. Spoils of war. Who knows, stopping US aid may give Israel a chance to be an oil exporting nation.

[Camelopard]

Israel's version of democracy if you are arab:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Settler_Violence/20090608_Charges_on_Hebron_settler_shooting_droped .asp


8 June ’09: Bring Ze’ev Braude, the shooter from Hebron, to justice


quote "On 4 Dec. ’08, security forces evacuated the settlement in the a-Ras neighborhood (“the House in Dispute&#8221 ;) in Hebron.

The same day, Kiryat Arba resident Ze’ev Braude shot and wounded three members of the al-Matariyeh family.

The shooting, which took place in the Wadi Hussein section of Hebron, was filmed by Jamal Abu Sa’ifan with a camera he received in the framework of B'Tselem’s camera distribution project.

During the incident, another settler fired into the air and at Sa’ifan and tried to grab the camera from him.

A third settler fired into the air and at the family’s house.

B'Tselem gave the video tape documenting the incident to the police the same day.


Two days later, two of the suspects turned themselves in to the police and were subsequently released.


Today [8 June 2009], it was reported that, following Supreme Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein’s order that the state reveal privileged evidence in the case, the Jerusalem District Attorney’s Office intends to withdraw the indictment against Braude.


The minister of defense had declared evidence privileged, contending that its disclosure would harm state security.

B'Tselem demands that the District Attorney’s Office retract its pitiful decision.

Withdrawal of the indictment will enable a violent and dangerous person to avoid punishment and continue to endanger human lives.

If the state refuses to disclose the evidence, it must find other ways to bring Braude to justice.

Withdrawal of the indictment is not a legitimate option." unquote.


Do you really wonder why arabs resort to violent means if a clearly filmed act of violence against them is dismissed out of hand? Wouldn't you be pissed off?

Issues of 'state security'. Wasn't that the sort of tripe that the likes of the stasi and the kgb (and now even still happens in the PRC) used to use to curb freedom of speech and human rights?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Israel's version of democracy if you are arab:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Settler_Violence/20090608_Charges_on_Hebron_settler_shooting_droped .asp


8 June ’09: Bring Ze’ev Braude, the shooter from Hebron, to justice


quote "On 4 Dec. ’08, security forces evacuated the settlement in the a-Ras neighborhood (“the House in Dispute”) in Hebron.

The same day, Kiryat Arba resident Ze’ev Braude shot and wounded three members of the al-Matariyeh family.

The shooting, which took place in the Wadi Hussein section of Hebron, was filmed by Jamal Abu Sa’ifan with a camera he received in the framework of B'Tselem’s camera distribution project.

During the incident, another settler fired into the air and at Sa’ifan and tried to grab the camera from him.

A third settler fired into the air and at the family’s house.

B'Tselem gave the video tape documenting the incident to the police the same day.


Two days later, two of the suspects turned themselves in to the police and were subsequently released.


Today [8 June 2009], it was reported that, following Supreme Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein’s order that the state reveal privileged evidence in the case, the Jerusalem District Attorney’s Office intends to withdraw the indictment against Braude.


The minister of defense had declared evidence privileged, contending that its disclosure would harm state security.

B'Tselem demands that the District Attorney’s Office retract its pitiful decision.

Withdrawal of the indictment will enable a violent and dangerous person to avoid punishment and continue to endanger human lives.

If the state refuses to disclose the evidence, it must find other ways to bring Braude to justice.

Withdrawal of the indictment is not a legitimate option." unquote.


Do you really wonder why arabs resort to violent means if a clearly filmed act of violence against them is dismissed out of hand? Wouldn't you be pissed off?

Issues of 'state security'. Wasn't that the sort of tripe that the likes of the stasi and the kgb (and now even still happens in the PRC) used to use to curb freedom of speech and human rights?

yup...wrong. I hear you. Then look at any of the Arab nations near Israel. Judge them by the same standard. Saudi Arabia? They stone women for infidelities. IF you are a foreigner caught doing something they don't like, you could be on death row. Evidence? They don't require it...you are the infidel, that is enough.

Syria's human rights record? WAY worse than Isreal's. You think Mubarek is a nice man? Ask anyone who looks at his regime the wrong way. My point has been, and always has been that there are injustices and problems WITH Israel, but you are likely to find its harshest critics within its borders as you are outside of Israel.

I bet if you looked, you could find other injustices in Canada, the US, Australian and most of the EU. We are all people governed by imperfect democracies, and Israel is under constant stress from attack. Of course they are going to cross the line, and it is one thing to knock that, but is yet another to look at the Palestinians and the Arab enemies that deny the nation's right exist and tell me they hold any moral high ground. Israel for the most part is pretty benign.

The "anger" that fuels the Arabs who want the Jews killed and mutiliated is from religious and bigotted intolerance. The Arabs were one people in the world who were admiring what Hitler was doing.....and they haven't changed that much in the last 70 years.

[Easy Drifter]

Back to the title of this thread.
You do not really impose peace.
If everyone wants it, there is peace.
If they don't then the only way to have 'peace' is by force of arms and that is not really peace.
If the US were to send troops into the area to impose 'peace' things would get much worse than they are as no one would want them there, including Israel.
Then imagine the posts from Eki!!!!! :eek:

[Eki]

yup...wrong. I hear you. Then look at any of the Arab nations near Israel. Judge them by the same standard. Saudi Arabia? They stone women for infidelities. IF you are a foreigner caught doing something they don't like, you could be on death row. Evidence? They don't require it...you are the infidel, that is enough.

Syria's human rights record? WAY worse than Isreal's. You think Mubarek is a nice man? Ask anyone who looks at his regime the wrong way. My point has been, and always has been that there are injustices and problems WITH Israel, but you are likely to find its harshest critics within its borders as you are outside of Israel.

I bet if you looked, you could find other injustices in Canada, the US, Australian and most of the EU. We are all people governed by imperfect democracies, and Israel is under constant stress from attack. Of course they are going to cross the line, and it is one thing to knock that, but is yet another to look at the Palestinians and the Arab enemies that deny the nation's right exist and tell me they hold any moral high ground. Israel for the most part is pretty benign.

The "anger" that fuels the Arabs who want the Jews killed and mutiliated is from religious and bigotted intolerance. The Arabs were one people in the world who were admiring what Hitler was doing.....and they haven't changed that much in the last 70 years.
So you defend Israeli because there are others who are as bad or even worse than them? Two wrongs make right? Do you also think it's OK to steal if you don't steal as much as somebody else?

[Eki]

Contrary to what some may believe, I don't give a rat's a$$ about Israel one way or another. I just point out that thinking aid from the USA is the only thing that keeps Israel alive is incorrect. Israel keeps Israel alive. It's laughable the way some factions keep throwing rocks at Israel and then scream for the UN when Israel finally comes after them.

If Obama stops aid to Israel and an Arab or Persian country comes after them, I hope they are prepared to lose even more of their territory because Israel won't give it back on their own. They'll keep it. Spoils of war. Who knows, stopping US aid may give Israel a chance to be an oil exporting nation.
Economic sanctions against Israel would be a good idea. Then they'd just be an oil nation with no one to export their oil to. And I'm quite sure they'd quite soon run out of steel to build more tanks and weapons. I'm not sure, but Israel isn't a well known for its steel industry.

[Easy Drifter]

Back on your Israel bad, Arab nations good BS again o' Finnish Hamas Member.

[Camelopard]

Back on your Israel bad, Arab nations good BS again o' Finnish Hamas Member.

Back on your 'Finish Hamas Member' crap, when really you should be back on your medication....... :)